Wikipedia talk:GLAM/British Museum/Ice Age art

Hi John, great to meet you the other day. Hope Friday at the BL went well. I meant to show up but got caught up with family stuff (speedy trips to London don't make for flexible schedules!). This looks really great and I'd love to be involved. I'll publicise it with the rest of the Star Carr team and other Ice age archaeologists! I imagine the Creswell Crags gang would contribute something! PatHadley (talk) 10:13, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Great to have you aboard! Pat is a postgrad archaeologist at York who is working on the Star Carr project, already on our list, so will be a great addition to the team. Johnbod (talk) 12:30, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi John, Did you get my email? As I explained - I used to have my wikipedia account attached to an old address (sorted now). Sorry I couldn't help with Bronze Age stuff. Hope to catch up soon PatHadley (talk) 08:02, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Getting busy
I have been looking this morning at some key biographies discussed yesterday:


 * Henry Christy. I have worked over this, mainly replacing EB1911 text with fuller DNB text, and updating language. Jill gave me specific comments, and I've addressed some of them; she was saying that Christy's Quaker views were prime motivation for his anthropological/ethnological interests, in particular to combat racist theories of multiple human origins. I can't of course add that as OR, and so depend on finding sources.
 * Augustus Wollaston Franks. Expanded a bit with DNB text to give a section on major works. I can do more when I have a moment. I have gone through creating incoming links from other articles, so the backlinks should now give a good range of context, in particular for his collecting. The redlink Edward Hawkins (numismatist) is another BM person, and I can create the article any time.
 * John Conyers (apothecary). Stub created; has an ODNB article. I used a range of sources to get something up here.
 * Worthington George Smith. This article is OK but light on the archaeological side presently. No PD text available in the DNB since he died too late.

The redlink flint implement turned up and I redirected it to stone tool pending discussion. There is probably much gnoming work to be done of this sort.

The merge of hand axe and biface can be done (well, merging is not that easy, but is possible); but we really need a consensus on the talk page about the title. Please add to Talk:Biface.

This is all too detailed to put on GLAM/BM/Ice Age art but I'll add "results" once there is a format in which to do so. Charles Matthews (talk) 11:08, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

A redlink list
To give an idea about what I was talking about with redlinks, I've generated a quick redlink list from Category:Lithics:

A. Rutot - Agate glass - Ahrensburgian - Ain Cheikh - Alberta point - Alfred Rust - Amlaq Qatih - Anzick site - Archaeology in Oceania - Backed blade - Barbed point - Bear MCG - Beı'dar Chamou't - Belle Meade Phase - Benjamin Harrison (naturalist) - Bitter Springs Formation - Blade core - Blade tool - Bob Kramer - Bob Lum - Bowen Site (12 MA 61) - Bradley Spike - Bustan Birke - Calphalon - Canton of Le Grand-Pressigny - Central Forage Point - Central foraging theory - Chapeau de gendarme - Choil - Clampitt Site (12-LR-329) - Clarksdale bell - Clemson Island culture - Cody point - Colby site - Composite tool - Core-tool - Cotter Dolomite - count14 - Dakwe I - Denticulate Mousterian - Derrumbadas - Developed Oldowan - Devil's Mouth - Diving knife - Douwara - Eikhorn - El Chayal - El-Emireh - End scraper - Fenn cache - Ferrassie Mousterian - Fig Tree Formation - Flake scars - Fluted points - Foreshaft - Frederick point - Gault site - Glyptic art - Goshen point - Grattoir - H. Klaatsch - Habarjer III - Hale Site - Hohle Fels Cave - International Monographs in Prehistory - J. Allen Browne - J. Reid Moir - John WK Harris - Journal of California and Great Basin Anthropology, UC Merced Library, UC Merced - Kafr Tibnit - Kamed Loz I - Khallet Hamra - Khallet Michte I - Khallet Michte II - La Micoque - Lamar Phase - Les-Eyzies-de-Tayac - Lilbourn Site - Lonetal - Lorenz Beger - Lower Pecos - Lyn Wadley - Madison projectile point - Magadi-type chert - Mahaffey Cache - Majdel Anjar I - Mano (archaelogy) - Mano (archaeology) - Mejdel Anjar I - Meserve point - Microfibrous - Microwear - Mill Creek (Illinois) - Mousterian of Acheulean Tradition (MTA) - Mullerup - Notched scrapers - Ocean Edge Knife - Office cleaning cart - Papa lisa - Paredon - Peter J. Wescombe - PHREEQC - Prather Site - Produce knife - Protoneolithic - Rigid Knives - Robert Parrish (knifemaker) - S. Hazzledine Warren - Scavenging station model - Scottsbluff point - Secondary working - Shaft straightener - Shemouniyeh - Side scrapers - Sileshi Semaw - Simon site - Social strategy - Soft hammer - Springwells Phase - St. Mary's Hall site - Stemmed projectile points - Survival Aids - Suwanee point - Taireh II - Tayibe (Lebanon) - TEKNA - Thumbnail scraper - Tomb of Téviec - Tool-stub1Template talk - Type tool - typeredlinks.subset - Typical Mousterian - Ucareo - Unfluted - Wadi Salhah - Wdoleman@unm.edu - Zanjan knives - Zinapecuaro

That's around 140: there are half-a-dozen that occur in two articles, but otherwise they are singletons ("What links here" can tell you where). This is just illustrative, but could be helpful in breaking into the area. I suppose some of these can be redirected appropriately.

In order to apply the technique to Ice Age art directly, there would need to be a relevant category. Charles Matthews (talk) 11:31, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks Charles! In fact we have Category:Art of the Upper Paleolithic - could you run the exercise on that?  Many of the redlinks above sound as if they are further terms, sites, or people, from the extensive list of stubby articles we already have on early native American archaeology that dominate the Lithics category - Bare Island projectile point is typical. Others seem Middle Eastern. The lithics category could usefully be split by continent I think. Office cleaning cart? Well, maybe! Johnbod (talk) 11:46, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Pat, it seems to me that a number of the more general terms above - eg Blade core - Blade tool - Flake scars - Side scraper - End scraper etc - could at least for now be redirected to main articles like Biface/Hand axe and the stub Scraper (archaeology), and bolded in the text there, even just as a list of other terms. Does that sound sensible? Improving such basic tool articles is probably a priority. Johnbod (talk) 12:04, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Side scraper now redirects, but possible to something too particular. Charles Matthews (talk) 14:24, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

OK, for the art category it gets quite amusing:

Alberto I of Monaco - Angles-sur-L'Anglan - Apollo 11 Cave - Artificial memory systems - Bisonte - Calanque de Devenson - Calanque de l'arène - Calanque de l'oeil de verre - Calanque de Port-Pin - Calanque d'En-Vau - César González Sainz - Chantal Jègues-Wolkiewiez - Christ and Demons in New Spain - Cognitive evolution - Cosquer - Cueva de las Monedas - David McKillop - Dr. Michael Rappenglueck - Film Lesson 1-4 - Fornols-Haut - Francesco d'Errico - French Prehistoric Society - Hermilio Alcalde del Río - Homo sapiens fossilis - International Scientific Committee for Lascaux - Jean-Gaston Lalanne - Joaquín González Echegaray - Julian Hobbs - La Gineste - LA Times Blog - Le Thot - Léon Péricard - L'homme de Lussac - Marseilleveyre - Maya Hawke - Mazouco - Mizyn archeological site - Museum de Saint Germaine - R. Dale Guthrie - Rodrigo de Balbín Behrmann - Sabotage Times - Semaphore (calanques) - Stephane Lwoff - Sven Nebel - The Nature of Paleolithic Art

plus (!) from the template Caves on Cave painting:

List of caves in Afghanistan - List of caves in Albania - List of caves in Algeria - List of caves in Andorra -

Charles Matthews (talk) 14:20, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmm! We seem to have reached the bottom of that barrel then. Johnbod (talk) 14:42, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Thoughts moving onward...
Well, I had a really great day! Nice to meet so many people in person and learn so much. If you have a quick look at my profile page there is some info about the issues I kept banging on about! I'll add more soon and am working up the main Culture-historical archaeology and Archaeological culture articles in sandboxes. There are lots of things I thought of last night that I wanted to share with you all but many now escape me... One that you might like to look at is http://www.temporalmapping.org/. It's in very early beta but is an amazing tool for understanding spatio-temporal patterns in archaeology (currently it only looks at early holocene britain). If people have questions I'd love to keep the conversation going! PatHadley (talk) 09:30, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Pat, I'm going to copy this to the project talk page Wikipedia talk:GLAM/BM/Ice Age art to keep discussion in one place. A great day indeed & I'm sure people will be calling on your expertise a good deal as the project develops. Johnbod (talk) 11:56, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Franks article
I have now worked over Augustus Wollaston Franks and added at least the key facts I found in the old DNB article. It gets quite complicated to trace various donations, so the more specific comments are under "Death and legacy" now. Anyway the main outlines are perhaps clarified. There is plenty more detail in the modern ODNB article on him.

On the way I created the following BM-related articles: Edward Hawkins (numismatist) and Taylor Combe (staff), John Henderson (collector) (benefactor). I found the needy article Henry Wilson (sailor) (through Henderson's grandfather) which directly relates to the BM's ethnographic collection.

Given my "following my nose" method (a.k.a. scattiness) in working over the site, I'm not going to add just everything to the project page itself. Perhaps over time some order will emerge. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:04, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually I've started sections for works done & I think even peripheral stuff should be listed, to show something's happening - I've added some of yours. Johnbod (talk) 14:00, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Antiquity of man
I have started Discovery of human antiquity at the suggested title: it's quite a long draft still marked under construction. In effect the article goes for the history rather than the science, which is still moving on. For that reason I have put in a great deal of background, and refer the scientific side to other articles. My feeling is that this picks up on what we heard at the BM. There is a huge amount of detail to worry about, but that should probably be hashed over on Talk:Discovery of human antiquity. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:21, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Great stuff Charles! Let me know when you'd like it looked at. Johnbod (talk) 14:12, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Oh, when you like really. I'm still referencing and filling in bits, that's all. Charles Matthews (talk) 15:16, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Another way into the subject
OK, not strictly strictly relevant to the articles listed above, but we had a good day "behind the scenes", and here is another such (semi-private) opportunity of London treasures that could lead to lots more sources and material:
 * From Palaeolithic cave painters to contemporary practitioners, hands are both tools and subject for the artist. This exhibition shows works by Henry Moore, Freya Payne, Bryan Organ and Eleanor Bowen with reconstructed cave art technique by palaeontologist Dr Paul Pettitt to explore the deep history of hands in art. This exhibition is open to the public by appointment. Contact Felicity Henderson on 020 7451 2597 or felicity.henderson@royalsociety.org to arrange your visit.

(emphasis mine) On till 20 January at the Royal Society. More info BrainyBabe (talk) 01:28, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Interesting! Who would be interested in getting a group together? Johnbod (talk) 03:31, 30 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, count me in. Charles Matthews (talk) 22:35, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I would be interested. Philafrenzy (talk) 18:43, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
 * So now would be a good time to have a definite plan of action ... Charles Matthews (talk) 18:57, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Go ahead and choose a date. If I can come, I will, but don't try to work around me. BrainyBabe (talk) 20:02, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll send Felicity a mail then, to see how it looks. Charles Matthews (talk) 17:30, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I think I'd be interested. Might one even do it on Jan 17, the same day as the British Library GLAM/BL/Royal tour from 6pm? The double might be more attractive to some who have to travel. Johnbod (talk) 21:06, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
 * My thought also. Charles Matthews (talk) 13:59, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
 * And we can go when we want on 17 January. Reply came with a caveat about how useful it might be to us: the Ice Age exhibits are two out of a total of 12. So what's the next move? Charles Matthews (talk) 22:35, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Pick a time - 2 or 3 pm? - add to the BL tour page - add to the Geonotice? We could set up a new page to the tour but I think a section in the existing one is ok. Johnbod (talk) 22:41, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Will do (adding to the BL page). With several hours to fill, it might be an idea to have an intermediate rendezvous - somewhere we could talk over the business side. But one step at a time. Charles Matthews (talk) 18:59, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * How long would the exhibition take? I was allowing 1hr plus, then travel to the BL & a coffee & ready there at 6. Maybe 3.30, as its small? Johnbod (talk) 19:42, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Link to the other page, please? BrainyBabe (talk) 12:33, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * GLAM/BL/Royal. I've circulated this thing to the wikimediauk-l list just now. I feel that altering the site notice might create expectations that could turn out not to be justified; but I don't feel strongly enough to object to others doing that. Charles Matthews (talk) 20:38, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with that. Since we have a list at "Prequel", can people now confirm there - I've noted BrainyBabe & Philafrenzy as question marks. Charles needs to confirm numbers on Monday. Than for organizing this Charles! Johnbod (talk) 17:00, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * One snag: I definitely sent a mail about this to the wikimediauk-l list last night at about 8 pm. I haven't had it in my inbox yet ... could someone else check? Charles Matthews (talk) 17:49, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I got it at 12:16 & I only get the digest (#15) Johnbod (talk) 18:36, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Regret I won't be able to make it due to a conflict. Philafrenzy (talk) 00:10, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Little Thetford flesh-hook
I understand that this lives in Franks House, and is not on display. User:Senra asked me about getting a photo. So if and when someone goes back ... could this be on the list? Charles Matthews (talk) 22:37, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * It's been on the main BM image request list for ages. I'm not sure it is at Franks House but it might be. The usual BM policy is to not pull out stuff for photography. Johnbod (talk) 13:02, 9 December 2011 (UTC)