Wikipedia talk:Hinduism-related topics notice board/Archive 1

Too many pages - too much vandalism
I think we have too many pages on Hinduism, while even the main ones (Hindu, Hinduism, Vedas, etc.) need improvement. I wish they were more presentable, with less focus on denominatory differences. Aupmanyav 06:40, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Hinduism is multifaceted. One should not try to impose any parochial outlook on it. The article will have many pages. It is the differences which make Hinduism unique. Let us keep it that way.Kanchanamala 19:22, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Kurukshetra war
This article requires massive expansion. deeptrivia (talk) 21:34, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

more Hinduism stubs
here's the proposal: WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Proposals/2006/June Please vote!--Dangerous-Boy 18:33, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Ramayana in general and Hanuman in Specific
Somebody keeps editing the "Hanuman" article keeping a highly "whitewashed" (thats the only term) version of his birth and adventures. My specific issue is with the question of birth. I had read from several sources, that Hanuman was born through the union of Vayu and Anjana, thus making Vayu his biological father. The current story mentioned is that he was born through Dasaratha's Putrakama yagna, from which Vayu conveyed sacred pudding to Anjana. I had edited the article twice to mention both stories - finally, both are myths, and there are several stories and versions of the Ramayana - but someone keeps changing the article back to his/her "whitewashed" edition. I've noticed the same thing being done with the Ramayana. What do we do about it ?

Arun Athmanathan

Bhishma's previous life
I like the article on Bhishma, but I noticed it made no reference to the reason he had such a difficult life namely that he was cursed in his previous existence.

I'm not sure I'm confident enough to update the article myself (and also my sole reference is J.A.B. van Buitenen's translation), but does anybody else think the article should mention something of his previous life as Dyaus (one of the Vasus dieties that stole a sacred cow), and as a result was cursed to spend a long lifetime as a mortal man?

Mother Goddess Kali - Shodashi _ TRIPURASUNDARI
There is a wonderful article on Tripurasundari here on Wikipedia, Howerver once I had read it and learned that Tripurasundari is the Mother Goddess Kali TRANSFORMED, I read the lengthy yet incomplete article on Kali, and it mentioned nothing about her transforming herself into a red skinned youth whom Shiva then names Tripurasundari or Shodashi. Anyway I tried to contact Wikipedia so they could change it but I could not figure out how to actually contact them so I did this, which they reccommended. I am not equiped with the knowledge to properly edit the Kali article, but I wish someone could adda reference or a link to the Tripurasundari article. thank you from sonyasganjayoga@yahoo.com, peace & love.

goals
Fix up the Hinduism article and the Hindu article. Any more?--D-Boy 22:15, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Standard naming scheme
Please see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Regional notice boards. Zocky | picture popups 00:50, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

SHALYA
Shalya a character from mahabharata was from uttara madra aka punjab so he can be added to the list of punjabis!


 * Uttara Madra was probably in trans-Oxiana. Of course, the Madras later settled in Punjab just as Kauravas settled lower down in Haryana. Aupmanyav 15:11, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Bhisma
I dont know if Bhishma was one of the ancient Vasus but there is a tale that in aformer birth he thre a snake in a thorny bush where it suffered for many dies before dying and later the same fate awaited bhisma as seen in the mahabharata

Hindu Unity
Just a little concerned about the wording on the specific threats section on teh article. Is it appropriate? A pak user was changing it around.--D-Boy 09:16, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Vegetarianism and religion
Hindusim section needs NPOV: "The section is not factual. Of all the hindu population less that ten percent are vegetarians. Most of hindus are meat-eaters which includes beef. To represent that most hindus are vegetarians is to use wiki for meaningless propaganda. I really want to have a serious debate about this section before the section can be given a facelift. As a fellow-hindu, I feel that my religion is being hijacked by a few extreme elements. --C9"


 * I value vegetarianism but am a non-vegetarian (that means you can take me to be neutral in this respect). Whatever anyone says about it is that person's personal opinion. There has never been a census as far as I know. How did you get your ten percent? Aupmanyav 15:20, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I m a Hindu Brahmin and I have been taught that beef eating is strictly forbidden since cow is sacred. Most Hindus are veggie, especially in the south, by birth; but choose to eat meat for convenience, ezpecially Hindus lliving in the United States. --Fishysushi 17:42, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Would anybody like to discuss the above statement on the Vegetarianism and religion page? It ideally needs an all-round approach from a number of different viewpoints within Hinduism. I follow a vegetarian tradition myself. Best Wishes, GourangaUK 19:32, 28 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Would have joined the debate, but that page has too much of non-Hindu information. That sort of dissuades me. Aupmanyav 15:20, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not prepared to believe that some Hindus eat beaf. However, if some born Hindu do not follow religion can not be construed that Hindus are meat eater. It's unfortunate that Hindu religion is target of some perverts to project something which is not. When one talk about one of the most practised religion, one has to look in general and not exceptions. Come to India and show me those Hindus who are known to observe Hindu religion and eat beaf. It's painful to listen to such non-sense like less than 10% are veg. and rest are beaf eaters. How could one ascertain the that C9 is Hindu? swadhyayee 14:40, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
 * A hindu should not eat beaf, there are other options. Many brahmins are not required by their traditions to abstain from non-vegetarian food. Kashmiri brahmins are one such group. But we certainly do not advocate such a person be tied to a stake and be burnt. Aupmanyav 09:22, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Traditionally, most Hindus avoid consumption of beef. However, the Hindus of Kerala eat beef just like any other meat. If we hunt up scriptural references, I am sure we will not find a single reference which says it is Ok to eat meat except for beef. We only find references which condemn slaughter in general and meat-eating in general. Usually in such texts, we also find injuntions to stay away from shudras, etc. How realistic are these rules in today's global world? In my opinion, we need to separate religious rules from social rules and always note that most of these social rules are now obsolete and do not apply to the way society is functioning today. The way things are now, a Shudra is equal to a Brahmana and is not subjugated in anyway. The rules have changed. So if someone wants to eat beef and still be a Hindu, it should still be OK. Technically, it is no different than eating chicken and being a Hindu, except that the animal killed is bigger in the latter case. Shvushvu 15:44, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I am a strict vegetarian. Having said that I must add that Vedic or classical literature in Sanskrit does not prohibit non-vegetarian food. Nonetheless, culturally among the Hindus in India beef has been shunned. Dairy products have been encouraged, and 'go-samvardhana' (conservation of cattle) has been universally practiced.Kanchanamala 19:45, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Jyotirlinga list
Referring to Jyotirlingas (aka Dwadasa jyotirlinga), the divine light wherein Siva (one of the Hindu trinity) manifested Himself, the list can be more orderly. Point about Somnath, the first jyotirlinga is that the shrine is associated with Moon (Som) and the original shrine was plundered a dozen times by Muslim invaders like Mohammed Ghaznavi. A landmark there is that a ray from that point reaches the South Pole without touchng any landmass. Okay: Back to the topic. The order should be Somnath (Saurashtra), Mallikarjuna (Srisailam,) Mahakaal (Ujjain) Omakara (Mamalasewaram, island in the Narmada near Indore in MP), Vaijnath (Purli), Bheemasankaram (Dhakinya), Rameswaram (Setubandhu, southern tip of India), Nagesh (Daruka-van), Viswanath (Varanasi aka Kashi and Benaras) Tryambaka (Gautami banks, Kedranath (Himalayaa) Sivalaya).

The Siva abode of Pasupatinath in Nepal is adored along with the Jyotirlingas. My main concern is it is better to list the above shrines in this order, complying with a hymn to this effect. ukstranger Sunday, July 30, 2006; 3:51 pm
 * Would you kindly explain the strange behaviour of the ray which reaches from Somnath to South Pole without touching any landmass!! There are a trillion points on Indian coast where a direct line from South Pole would not cross any landmass. Somnath is about the one who is master of the moon, and not the moon itself. Yes, I agree, the best order is as given in the verse 'Saurashtre Somanathaya..' which has always been used by hindu to remember them. All jyotirlingas have the same importance. Aupmanyav 15:26, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Headcount?
when you read the article at the beginning it says that there are 900 million Hindus and that 890 million of them live in India, but later it says, after you add the values, that there are 908290056 Hindus...just noticed the inconsistency so i figured i would tell... 68.17.203.58 01:01, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I am good with this kind of thing. :-)  There is no way to ever get an exact count (down to the last 56) because every second there are Hindus dying and Hindus being born.  There should really be the word "around" or "about" in front of every number and then there would be no problem.  Steve Dufour 21:47, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Babri Mosque
Now this page is under fire. It was great in January.--D-Boy 06:46, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Vote for censorship
An user is conducting a survey on his talkpage to "understand if Koenraad Elst could be cited as a valid non biased source for the 2002 Gujarat violence, Babri Masjid and Ram Janmabhoomi articles. .... Can we include Koenraad Elst's comments as a valid NPOV factual/news source? Please highlight with your comments on why we should and why we should not? Concise and responding to these questions.I will only allow the first para of your responses here."

I see this as a badly veiled attempt at censorship. By censoring Koenraad Elst from the Ayodhya related articles, one of the most important authorities on the Hindu side of the Ayodhya debate would be effectively silenced. The whole conducting of such a "survey" on wikipedia is just a replaying of the old Galileo affair, IMO it reeks of censorship, hate-mongering and attempted character assasination. Read the first 3 paragraphs of this link of a chapter by Elst to see a similar example. Or this link. The use or non-use of a source or quote must be decided case by case, and according to WP:NPOV both sides of a debate can be quoted, not only the Muslim/Marxist side. This however is just an attempt to censor the Hindu side of the debate. WikiProject Wikipedians against censorship --Soparnos 16:57, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Heavenly Mother in Hinduism?
I do not know very much in depth about Hinduism. However I understand that the concept of an aspect of God as Heavenly Mother could be found in it. The reason I mention this is because there is an article on "Heavenly Mother" which has been started by some Mormons and they are looking for information from other religions. If you are interested in helping them please check it out. Wishing you the best. Steve Dufour 21:42, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Hinduism in Indonesia
I think we should separate Hindu Revival in Indonesia and Agama Hindu Dharma. Agama Hindu Dharma should concetrate on the philosphical concepts on Balinese Hinduism and Hindu Revival in Indonesia should be renamed to Hinduism in Indonesia and concentrate on the history of hinduism in indonesia and its current influence and position.--D-Boy 07:10, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Discrepancy in articles "Balinese caste system" and "Kshatriya"
In the article "Kshatriya" under the heading "Non-Indian" it is stated that about 40 percent of the total population of Bali comprises of Balinese Kshatriyas. But in the article "Balinese caste system" Sudras are said to make up more than 90% of Bali's population. I am not so deep into the caste topic but something seems wrong to me. Any clues?

Article about Rta should be expanded.Devapriya 17:27, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Pallavas--how did they dispose of their dead
219.65.115.77 03:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)R. Narasimhan219.65.115.77 03:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)There is no mention of how the pallavas disposed their dead. Obviously, their custom should have been to throw the bodies for the vultures in an enclosed area, maybe on the top of the nearby hills. When the Pallavas disappeared, these enclosed areas were converted into temples, possibly the followers of Zoroastrians--Indian version.Thus the arrival of hill top temples.

The Thirukkazugukundram temple near Mamallapuram is an example, where the eagles were coming in search of bodies every day; and the temple priests fed them with rice!

R. Narasimhan narsi@vsnl.com


 * Pallavas have long gone. Do you mean to say that the generations of eagles in the intervening 1300 years remember that their forefathers were once fed with dead human bodies and they keep coming back every day, even if they are fed only with rice and do not look for any other place where the fare could be better. And what happened to the followers of Zorastrians - Indian version, crossed back to Iran? And why should their custom be, obviously, throwing the bodies in an enclosure? You know, Wikipedia does not take in crank-head theories, you need to provide references. Aupmanyav 09:56, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * First thing, it has not been conclusively proved that Pallavas were Pahlavas, and even if they were, the names in the Kings' list are all Hindu names. It seems, like many other foreigners who migrated to India in history, they must have embraced Hinduism and must be cremating their dead. Cremation grounds are generally not near temples. Aupmanyav 12:28, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Noticed this rather strange comment.... There are many places where eagles are fed, but ME thinks these are so not because of Zoroastranism but more because eagle(Garuda) is the vehicle of Lord VIshnu Kumar

Neutrality Dispute
I would like to voluntarily state that I am a non-practicing NRI Hindu. I am not associated with RSS, HSS or any other organization that has openly stated its association with Hinduism.

Good, there are many like you in India also, how does it matter. What is wrong if RSS, HSS or any other organization has association with hinduism, is it a crime? Aupmanyav 09:09, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Trouble arises whenever the Sangh Parivar, including the RSS and VHP, acts as if they have the monopoly on Hinduism. Looking at their track record, they would be well-advised to back off. While reading the article, I can't help reaching the conclusion that the Parivar has hijacked the article. The articles on Hindu and Hinduism make dismal reading. I, for one, do not feel encouraged to dare make any edits to emend them.Kanchanamala 13:44, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

That is not true, Kanchan. If it was so I would not have been resisting 'Hinduism is Vedic only' for so long. Both views will remain, only one should not smother the other. Aupmanyav 07:36, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes,sir, you are absolutely correct. Thanks.Kanchanamala 12:47, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

History of Hinduism
Hinduism has evolved over centuries or even Millenium. Hindu Puranas (The 18 Puranas)have to be read as historic recordings over various Millenia. Hindu puranas talk about Pralaya or destruction of whole civilization many times over. The order of creation explained in Hindu texts broadly matches the present day theories of evolution (first creation of matter from energy, and then over billions of years, creation of single cell life forms, intelligence or budhi tathwam or Mahatathwam as it is called and then the various sensory organs and the media like direction air and sound or sight adnlight or selse of touch and skin etc. and then to higher level of life forms). The scriptures have also kept track of the time evolved. We are presently in the second Parardha (an eighteen digit number) of the Padma Kalpa. The first creation was in Brahma Kalpa when the big bang occured and the universe was created. There are 14 Manvanthara in each Kalpa and in each Manvanthara there are 71 cycles of Chathur Yuga (Kritha yugam, Thretha Yugam, Dwapara yugam, and Kali yugam.)At the end of each cycle of Chathur Yugam, there is loss of civilization either in part or in full. Many inventions will be lost. But vague indications of achievements may be left behind as stories. The puranic recordings show continuity. All of them talk about Vedas being handed over from generation to generation through oral or verbal transmission. Only a handful of people carried this message. Many times over the vedic messages or meanings have been lost or misinterpreted. Vedas themselves are like Wikipedia, and written or verse narrated / created by a number of saints or rishis. Upanishads are explanation of the Truth in the Vedas by the desciples of the Rishis. The Epics and Puranas are examples of practice of Vedic rituals and beliefs. These should not be read in bits and pieces. They have to be taken together. According to Hindu scriptures, destruction of civilization takes place when ever the natural balance is totally disturbed. en we will ealise that Archeological excavations may not be in a position to guage the antiquity or age of these scriptures. Do we have methods today to go deep enough over milleniums. Do we believe that material used over 10 or 12 Millenium will still be available as materials or utensils even after the earth has been subjected to numerous floods, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions and other pressures. Many organic materials have been converted to Hydrocarbons. Why we cannot accept the dates and history given in the Puranas.

I suggest that we write two versions side by side 1) based on the historic evidence collected through excavations or as interpreted by with todays' limited knowledge and 2) based on the evolution and antiquity explalined in the Hindu scriptures and also the time frame indicated there-in from begining of creation to present date. Hindu scriptures are the oldest social or religious information we have about humanity. This may also be History of human civilization and not of Hindus of today. Who knows as to whether Hinduism started in present day Americas or Africas and not in India. Humanity will develop enough expertice and knowledge one day to correctly guage the age of earth. K.N.R.--K.N.Ramanathan 23:28, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

The problem with the Puranas is - in their present condition - they are more religious sources than history sources. They have been mutilated and interpolated over time to the point where it is practically impossible to mine any useful historical data out of them. Besides, the way science works is, data obtained from different sources should all more or less corroborate each other. For instance, archaeological evidence in north western India aligns fairly well with linguistic evidence obtained from the Rig-Veda, etc., and also with the development of the Avesta in Persia (Iran). Since they all corroborate each other, we can make a fair estimate about the development of Vedic civilization. Now, if you try to read in fantastic evidence from Puranas about people living on the earth for billions of years; people with life spans ranging thousands of years; millions and millions of people fighting in Kurukshetra (the place can barely hold a fraction of this count) then we know these wild variations from data obtained through other sources is reason enough to dismiss them as mythology.

We have uncovered sufficient evidence through Paleontology to establish a time cycle of different species on the planet. Homo sapiens came out of Africa some 200, 000 years ago and moved to all parts of the world. Vedic civilization in India flourished for a couple of millennia and was supplanted by Hinduism around 2000 years ago which is still alive today. This is mainstream history. There are patriotic Hindus who are enchanted by Puranic stories and desire to see a greater antiquity assigned to Hinduism. But unfortunately, these stories go against all available evidence and are therefore not considered to have any scientific value. Shvushvu 16:00, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Some corrections, one of the latest researches says that humans might have expanded out of Africa as late at 50,000 years ago, and not as early as thought previously. Vedic religion might have flourished in North India and not in other parts. You may not call it hinduism, but both its components, the Vedic as well as indigenous, are much older, perhaps 10,000 years. Aupmanyav 07:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Koenraad Elst and banning of books
Two users (User:Hornplease and User:Lkadvani) are advocating that the works of Koenraad Elst should be banned on wikipedia.

Many of Koenraad Elst's works are on Indian politics and contemporary issues and conflicts of Hinduism and were published in India. I certainly agree some quotes are just not appropriate for an article, and that Elst was misquoted in some articles. But the entire tone of Hornplease's and Lkadvani's discussions shows more an inclination towards censorship and systematic bias, than an interest in neutrality, balance and reason. --Bondego 13:01, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Since this editor - for whom this is among the first edits - has posted several similarly accusatory posts elsewhere which I have replied to, I direct the interested reader to my responses, , and . ::Hornplease 05:57, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Raja Yoga controversy
Dear Hinduism Project editors,

There is a controversy on the Hinduism regarding Raja Yoga. Please read the debate on the Hinduism discussion page. Your comments are requested on the Hinduism discussion page to help resolve the controversy. Thank you. HeBhagawan 15:13, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

DYK
The DYK section featured on the main page is always looking for interesting new and recently expanded stubs from different parts of the world. Please make a suggestion.--Peta 02:02, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Jyotisha:

Just now I have seen the comments by the so called scientists who have opposed about the introductin of Jyotisha in Indian Universities.

I have just a small question.

How for they know about the Jyotisha sastra. They simply believes what ever the westerners said. They never tried to understand the old sacred books of Hinduism.

What the scientists know is not even a pin prick of the universe. Our old sages know much more thant what the present scientists know.

Just take one example. There was a sage called Narada. He used to travel whereever he liked. He used to move in just seconds. I am not telling that it is a magic. It is the art of travelling at the speed of light. That art we haven't know till now.

Why so for. Just let them travel to Himadri and meet the sages who are there for years together. They know all these arts.

Just because you don't believe, don't say that it is not true.

And one more thing. How many scientists are there. Hardly a handful. What about the remaining crores of people who believes these things.

I am ready to discuss these things with any scientist ont he earth.

H.K.Kishore Teacher, Kennedy School, 3/5 Arundelpet, Guntur Andhra Pradesh India 522002 Ph: +91 863 2212799 Mobile: 9441915774

Mahavishnu/Vishnu
I was considering whether it would be appropriate to merge the Mahavishnu and Vishnu pages together. I know that there is a difference between Vishnu and Mahavishnu: Mahavishnu being the Supreme Brahman figure, yet perhaps we could put a secondary heading about the Vaishnav Mahavishnu in. To be honest it is not the best of ideas, but most of the things to put in the Mahavishnu article are in the Vishnu article, so please give any suggestions as how we can do this without repeating information too much. Please reply on my user page 18:21, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Randalmataji Article
I have not been aware of any article about Ravirandal maa (a Kuldevi and Goddess from Gujarat). The Goddess, as you may have heard is worshipped by many Gujarati people in the boy head shaving "Balmuwara" ceremony/ when many hold "matajina lota", and Randalmataji is also the consort of Suryanarayan Bhagwan. If any of you are familiar with Ravirandalmaa, please leave a message on my user talk. (I am more than happy to write the article myself). 18:39, 22 October 2006 (UTC)