Wikipedia talk:In the news/Archive 50

Main Page ITN picture location
In recognition that the location of the picture in ITN at the top of the section frequently places it next to an unrelated or even inappropriate blurb I recommend the following change to ITN's procedure.
 * The first slot in the ITN section is to be reserved for blurbs with images.
 * A line is to be inserted between the pictured blurb and all other blurbs.
 * All other blurbs are to remain in their reverse chronological order.
 * The pictured item will remain at the top until another pictured item replaces it.
 * If the blurb is still current after removal from the pictured area, it would return to the list in its appropriate reverse chronological order location.
 * If the blurb is considered stale at the time of its removal from the pictured area it would simply be removed from ITN entirely.

This proposal would remove potential reader confusion as to the correlation of image and blurb. While this removes the pictured item from the strict reverse chronological order, I am not convinced that the average reader (not editor) of ITN is even aware that the section is in such order. --Khajidha (talk) 13:26, 12 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Is there no way to have the picture stay with the blurb as it moves down the ITN box? 331dot (talk) 13:31, 12 November 2014 (UTC)


 * It's been said that such a format would cause layout problems under certain conditions. Aesthetic objections have been raised as well.  —David Levy 14:20, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure that adding a dividing line is advisable, as this would increase the likelihood of readers mistakenly inferring that the topmost item has been selected on its own merits for a special showcase. This proposal is based on readers' inherent assumption that the image relates to the first item listed, so I see no need for demarcation. Additionally, the above description seems to indicate that an item occupying the "pictured" slot would remain there until a suitable replacement became available, even if it were stale (meaning that at least one item about a subsequent event was bumped from ITN). I oppose this element. In the rare circumstance in which no suitable image related to a non-stale item is available, we should simply display no image in the section. This is our current practice, which I see no reason to modify (particularly as part of this proposal, given its tangential connection to the core idea). —David Levy 14:20, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I personally regard the status quo as largely acceptable (with an exception being the fairly uncommon instances in which an image's specific content appears to illustrate an unrelated item), and the same goes for the proposed setup.
 * To be clear, I oppose the two specific elements detailed above. In their absence, my opinion of the general idea would be neutral.  —David Levy 15:10, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Admittedly, I did overlook the probably exceedingly rare instance of no other pictures being available for blurbs until after the pictured item becomes stale. I don't think that is ever really going to be a problem.--Khajidha (talk) 12:23, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I'm in agreement with David's comments. I think that the ITN box is small enough that a "pictured" comment within a blurb is enough to indicate what blurb goes with what image. 331dot (talk) 14:24, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I think the English Wikipedia is the only big website that does this way of telling people what is pictured. Almost all websites have the blurb that relates to the picture in a more prominent position. Surely there's something that could be done for that. Or no picture at all if the top blurb doesn't have one. – H T  D  14:48, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose: readers are not idiots - they can figure out which blurb a picture goes with quite easily. In newspapers, for example, a picture is often far removed from the portion of the article that talks about it.  Thus, it is only asethetic preference as to whether the picture lines up with the blurb or not and my asethetic preference is for the current system. --ThaddeusB (talk) 15:20, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Which newspapers do you read? The ones I typically read all have pictures adjacent to the text! They may also have large self-contained pictures, with just a caption beneath, sometimes adjacent to a totally different picture-less story. But that's a problem we don't have to face. They also typically use dividing lines. I realise that ITN is not a "mini-newspaper", but it sometimes looks quite amateurish, even though I know, as an editor, how the system "works". Still considering how to vote here. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:45, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I meant that the image is not next to a sentence describing the subject, not that it is an unrelated article. For example, an article on last week's US mid-term eelctions might have a picture of Scott Walker at the top even if he isn't mentioned until the second half of it. --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:03, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh I see. Well, I think that's slightly different. The current front page was, for a short time, a good example of where confusion is more likely - a blurb about a spacecraft and a picture of something in space. If a reader takes the trouble to read the whole section, they will soon understand what is pictured. It's just ambiguous at first glance. (I guess the issue of always posting new entries at the top, even if they happened a few days ago, is a separate one). Martinevans123 (talk) 20:20, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * That is a completely different thing. In your example, the picture is relevant to the article it is next to. Here the image often is next to an unrelated blurb. --Khajidha (talk) 12:23, 13 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Oppose I agree with David. Neljack (talk) 21:24, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose. This is a solution in search of a problem. -- Calidum  03:47, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose a needlessly complicated way to solve an issue already dealt with by the word '(pictured)' doktorb wordsdeeds 05:51, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * A word which is not seen until after one has already read the first post looking for information on the adjacent picture. --Khajidha (talk) 12:23, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The ITN box is not large in size and the "pictured" can be seen quickly. 331dot (talk) 12:26, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The ITN may be small but it is text-heavy and it's never easy to spot "pictured". It's the only homepage of a major website that does this.
 * OK, before someone does the "people are stupid if they don't realize this" argument, don't do it. People aren't stupid if they don't realize this. – H T  D  12:33, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Maybe we should bold the 'pictured'. Everyone else doing something isn't a reason itself for us to jump on the bandwagon and do it.  Different websites have different missions and different reasons for doing what they do that aren't necessarily ours.  There will always be people who don't realize aspects of how Wikipedia is structured or what goes with what- this doesn't make them 'stupid'- but making things more complicated won't help more people learn how the ITN box works.  Just what I think. 331dot (talk) 12:43, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * People would say that would be too distracting. If people won't go with putting the blurb with the picture on top, go with "Pictured: Rest of the blurb here.", with the blurb wherever it's supposed to be. – H T  D  12:47, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I think that's an idea that would be worth trying(or at a minimum discussing as a proposal on its own). I think that could potentially help more people in a simpler manner than the proposal under discussion here. 331dot (talk) 12:53, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * In most instances, "pictured" doesn't apply to the event itself, so that format wouldn't make sense. Additionally, we sometimes must specify what/who is pictured.
 * And yes, we tried displaying "(pictured)" in bold, and I believe that "too distracting" was among the complaints that led to the experiment's termination. —David Levy 13:51, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * One way to remedy this is "Pictured: First part of the blurb (see image/whatever is thought of), latter part of the blurb)." I'd assume that when people see a whole sentence after "Pictured" they'd think that the thing/person being pictured is somewhere in that sentence. This is sorta a low-tech version of what I suggested years ago of highlighting the blurb but keeping the thumb on the upper right corner. – H T  D  14:01, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I recall seeing promise in suggestions along those lines (which probably included yours). In fact, I once tried (and failed) to find one in particular among various archives.  (It doesn't help that I don't remember where on the site it was posted.)
 * To me, the "low-tech version" seems inelegant (and not preferable to the idea currently proposed). —David Levy 14:24, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree that readers might sometimes initially assume that the image relates to the topmost item. But how much actual harm does that momentary confusion typically cause?  In, for example, readers were unlikely to mistake the World Trade Center photograph for one related to a horse race.
 * However, I believe that it's problematic when an image's subject could be mistaken for that of an unrelated blurb appearing at the top . In these occasional cases, we can replace the image with one lacking the issue (even if this necessitates illustrating an earlier event) or simply remove it until a viable alternative becomes available.  —David Levy 13:51, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Isn't confusing the reader harmful to Wikipedia? --Khajidha (talk) 17:54, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't assert that no harm occurs. As noted above, it's a question of how much.  Every setup that I've seen suggested has trade-offs.  I regard yours (if tweaked in the two respects that I mentioned) as neither significantly better nor significantly worse than the current format (hence my neutral position).  It would address the type of confusion discussed, but it also would greatly increase the frequency at which the same item remains at the top of the list (which, to someone glancing at the page, might appear to indicate that the section hasn't been updated).  It also would result in a more complicated update/maintenance procedure, thereby increasing the likelihood of administrative errors.  —David Levy 18:21, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 16 November 2014
Please change the dash between the RDs from a "-" to a "—" like the one between the ongoings. -  NG39  (Used to be NickGibson3900) Talk 08:06, 16 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Better off putting this in WP:ERRORS but fixed. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:38, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Christmas fundraise
Did you know about the news about the re-writing of a modern Christmas song, to fund money for charity for Ebola? Qwertyxp2000 (talk) 06:02, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh, it's called "Do they know it's Christmas", that song. Qwertyxp2000 (talk) 06:03, 17 November 2014 (UTC)


 * You are welcome to nominate any specific event covered in the news at the ITN candidate page, but we aren't here to right great wrongs or promote causes, so to be honest it might be looked upon skeptically. 331dot (talk) 11:41, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Old hat?
The vicious  'IS'  murder of aid worker Peter Kassig — along with a dozen Syrian soldiers — hasn't been nominated. Have such horrible events become so common they're old hat?

Speaking of old hats, the sale of Napoleon's dopey hat for $2.4 million probably will be nominated, despite the essentially trivial nature of this event.
 * (Yes, I know I'm free to nominate whatever, but I always get lost in the, to me confusing, template.) Sca (talk) 15:28, 17 November 2014 (UTC)


 * PS: Sorry, I now see it's at the bottom of the 'ongoing' entry — but I would question whether this is sufficient exposure for such an outrageous deed. Sca (talk) 15:40, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Update Philae lander
We should probably update the Philae lander blurb as it looks like old news. Everyone knows it landed and had whole bunch of problems then landed in shade and is already dead. Perhaps update it with Phile Lander "loses all communication after landing issues" or something similar? -- Ashish-g55 16:05, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I suggest you take this discussion to WP:ITNC, either as subsection of the original nomination or as a new discussion. 331dot (talk) 16:23, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
 * i almost actually created a new section there then posted here instead lol. but you are right this page is generally useless for updates -- Ashish-g55 18:27, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Looking at the "disappearance of 43 students" item for Nov 19th
In Mexico City, thousands protest the disappearance of 43 students and subsequent discovery of mass graves.

Strikes me as awkward language. It sorta implies the protests are over the discovery of mass graves rather than the killing of the 43 students. Perhaps we should do;

In Mexico City, thousands protest the disappearance of 43 students after the discovery of mass graves. or; In Mexico City, thousands protest the killing of 43 students after the discovery of mass graves.

NickCT (talk) 13:02, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Usually best to suggest changes to stuff that's on the main page at WP:ERRORS. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:27, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I've fixed it. Thanks NickCT &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 14:35, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Mike Nichols
Could someone please add Mike Nichols to recent deaths? I'm surprised he hasn't been added already considering he's an icon of stage and screen. --ThylekShran (talk) 06:34, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Article quality is a necessary factor for anything going on the main page. It's been fixed (at least, I believe it has), and waiting for an admin to make that discussion, but we absolutely should not rush a bad article to ITN just because of "importance" of the news. We are not a news ticker, after all. --M ASEM (t) 06:49, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, some people at ITN are still concerned with article quality, rather than just posting unreferenced claptrap to the main page. Others are not so concerned, but generally we need to have a suitably updated, formatted and referenced article, as Masem notes, before we post it.  Some good work has been done to update the article, I imagine it is nearly good to go once the remaining cn tags are addressed.  Perhaps you'd like to help ThylekShran?  The Rambling Man (talk) 08:47, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

It seems the article was good enough (or has since been made such) to be added to the main page. So, all is good. :) --ThylekShran (talk) 01:48, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Stats
I am thinking that it would be a good idea for us to compile traffic stats for each news item posted so that we can understand if we are posting things of interest to our readers, or not. As an example, Phillip Hughes garnered 420,000 views today. 2014 Ferguson unrest peaked at 133,000 daily views. Magnus Carlsen peaked at 39,000 daily views and World Chess Championship 2014 peaked at 27,000. 2014 Formula One season rated 29,000 and Lewis Hamilton had 53,000. Romanian presidential election, 2014 peaked at 18,000 and Klaus Iohannis at 48,000.

Hughes and Ferguson had long, contentious discussions, while other nominations with lower (but still respectable) numbers sailed right through. This leads me to believe that our discussions may be focusing on the wrong criteria. Wikipedia exists for the readers, not for the editors. We should promote news items that people find interesting. We can use data from http://stats.grok.se/ to evaluate whether we are doing a good job and to discover what types of stories generate the most interest. Jehochman Talk 03:56, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Just noting the linked (but not bolded) article on the Shooting of Michael Brown peaked at 450,000 plus daily views. -- Calidum  23:06, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Lemme be the first one to say WP:NOTPAGEVIEWSTATS :P – H T  D  09:31, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Exactly. We could drastically increase pageviews by having "This Week's Featured My Little Pony" but I don't think it would be a good idea. EamonnPKeane (talk) 14:34, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I took Howard's remark as sarcasm. Besides, I think anyone can easily differentiate between tabloid-esque garbage and bonafide news stories. -- Calidum  15:39, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Make year auto-update for ISIS
Currently the link for ISIS is Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant It should probably be changed to Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant so the year auto-updates. -- Ypnypn (talk) 05:19, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Garner nomination reception
I wish to put on the record that the manner in which the Garner death nomination was received was very unfortunate and I believe could drive away a potential contributor. Referring to nominations as "wrong", "hard to believe this was nominated seriously", and "absurd" does not help keep contributors here. We want to have people nominate things, I thought. Disagree with a nomination all you want(I did as well); but we should not bite the newcomers. There are ways to inform people of what is looked for in a nomination without calling them wrong or absurd. People needing to be aware of what is required is not a reason to act in a poor manner(leaving aside a learning curve) Not one of our finer moments. 331dot (talk) 22:51, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
 * What's wrong is wrong, and will always be wrong. That's my view, anyway. No need to make things more complicated than they are. If I'm wrong, feel free to say so. That doesn't mean I'll agree that I'm wrong, just as you needn't agree when I say something is wrong. RGloucester  — ☎ 23:23, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Whether the nomination was wrong or not really isn't my point. The point is that we bit a newcomer or irregular contributor.  We want people to make nominations. ITN is generally better when we have people making nominations.  Was it really so unreasonable to nominate a story that was briefly headline news?  I agree it shouldn't have been successful- but it wasn't totally unreasonable.  I was less bothered by the "wrong" comment than the other two. 331dot (talk) 23:29, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Was it headline news? If so, is being a headline news item the only criteria for ITN? If so, should I nominate "US reveals bid to rescue Luke Somers"? If you're wondering, no, I would never nominate such an item. It merely is appearing on the BBC front page. RGloucester  — ☎ 23:49, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
 * (ec)Yes, it was briefly. No, headline news is not the only criteria as you know, but again, that's not the point. There were better ways to inform this person of that. What you or I would nominate(I wouldn't have nominated that item either) is not relevant. ITN is a better place when we have people making nominations, especially those outside the regulars, and we might have driven this one away. I hope not, and I've posted on their talk page to encourage them to stay. 331dot (talk) 00:19, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I would argue that we want editors with good judgement at ITN, not editors with poor judgement who make many nominations. Quantity over quality, as one tends to say. If an editor thinks of nominating such an item as this, I hardly think that they will be of value to ITN. We have enough systemic bias issues as it is. We need more good nominations, not more nominations full stop. RGloucester  — ☎ 00:23, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Good judgement is just that- judgement, not a certainty. What you or I consider "good" might not be what another considers good.  The more varied opinions we have, the better the consensus that is developed. The person who made the nomination obviously thought they were making a good nomination. Given news coverage, it was not totally unreasonable, even if it was correct to not post it.  Systemic bias issues are not a reason to keep potential contributors away. 331dot (talk) 00:29, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't want nominations for the sake of nominations; but I do want participants who feel welcome enough to make nominations; If I was the person who nominated the Garner story I wouldn't feel very welcome. 331dot (talk) 00:31, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * We don't serve tea to every peddler who walks through the door, only to those who provide useful goods. Honestly, at this point, I think we'd be better off winding up ITN, as it is clearly contrary to the spirit of our encyclopaedic purpose. It is being used as a soapbox for advocacy, and nurtures the now dominant and significantly detrimental tendency on Wikipedia to treat the encylopaedia as a newspaper. RGloucester  — ☎ 00:45, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * We might not serve tea to every peddler who walks through the door, but we don't smack them in the face or let the door hit them on the way out and tell them their initial contributions were bad. As with everything, there is both a learning curve and varying opinions.  You or I are not the sole determinants of who provides "useful goods" or what is useful.  Different people consider different things useful and good.  You are certainly free to propose ending ITN(which I would oppose as it is a good way to get articles improved and highlight them) 331dot (talk) 00:51, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Most of this subdiscussion is really academic; my point is, no matter what we might have thought about this nomination, it could have been handled much better. 331dot (talk) 00:52, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks 331 for mentioning this. I would have opposed this nomination as the reaction wasn't the same as for Brown. But editors need to realize the tone they use can be problematic. WaltClip's oppose is an example of how not to bite newcomers. -- Calidum 00:16, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * As one of the editors who reacted a bit harshly to this nomination, I'll admit that you may have a tiny bit of a point. However, I also think it's difficult to class Everymorning as a newcomer - the edit count script at WMF appears to be broken, but this is a user who has been here for over 18 months and whose edit count exceeds 10,000 in the past six weeks, with more than a handful of edits to ITN/C in that time (you might not recognise the username; it has changed in the past few weeks).  I think he should have known what the reaction would be.
 * As for the reaction itself, I think it was intended to make very plain to admins who might consider a hasty posting for this item that it had no consensus, given the out-of-hand rejection of quieter objections to previous items. To some degree, this is 'welcome to the world you have made' by defending the previous posting over a lack of consensus.  GoldenRing (talk) 02:37, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * If you or anyone disagree with how the consensus for posting the Brown story was arrived at by the posting admin, that should be taken up with them, not taken out on a new ITN poster. I concede that in this case the person might not be a newcomer per se but they are certainly not an ITN regular, and given the reception they got, probably won't be. 331dot (talk) 11:05, 5 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I think some of the 'oppose' votes in this case were expressed in extremely poor language. If I were a new user, I would certainly feel deterred by the tone of the discussion. In particular, RGloucester's use of the phrase 'parochial little stranglings' is deliberately obnoxious. And RGloucester also seems to think that !votes on ITNC can be 'wrong' in the sense that '1+1=3' is wrong, which seems to be an approach that is not conducive to mutual understanding or consensus building. ITNC's process has been broken for a long time, but the response to this particular nomination is exceptionally poor. Regardless of the procedural outcome, the behaviour of the participants was wretched. AlexTiefling (talk) 05:32, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * You gotta love how the people thought this out. said "you may have a tiny bit of a point", as if "yeah, I'll concede 1/100 of a period". Then  said some were in "extremely poor language", like "it's not just the entire period at the end of the sentence, but the entire paragraph". You have to notice the gulf in between the opinions of the opposers and those who are calling them out. – H  T  D  23:40, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Howard, for the record, I was agreeing that my oppose was put poorly and that, if the nominator had been a newcomer to Wikipedia or ITN, then yes, I might have helped scare off a new contributor and I'm not terribly proud of that. I'm glad that wasn't the case.  The phrasing is understatement, not refusing to give ground.  GoldenRing (talk) 04:45, 8 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm pinging in case he'd like to comment here, since he was the editor involved; if not, since we haven't scared him off and he's continued to contribute to ITN (as well as astonishingly prolific contributions in general), I suggest someone uninvolved closes this discussion as unlikely to be productive.  GoldenRing (talk) 04:48, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I wasn't planning on stopping my contributions to ITN, since I thought it was worth continuing as long as some of my nominations were successful. But I might change my mind after reading what RGloucester wrote above. Specifically, "If an editor thinks of nominating such an item as this, I hardly think that they will be of value to ITN." Maybe, then, it is in Wikipedia's best interest if I stop contributing to ITN. Also, on an unrelated note, I really appreciate GoldenRing saying my contributions are "astonishingly prolific". Also, with regard to what GoldenRing said about how I should have known what the reaction would be--before I nominated it, I suspected that it probably would not get posted, but I still thought that there was a chance it might get posted, enough to justify nominating it "just in case". I also noticed it was getting a lot of news coverage--and I mean a very large amount--and that the protests were significant enough that they might contribute noticeably to it having a chance of being posted as well. These were the factors that led me to nominate it. Everymorning   talk  17:31, 8 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree 100% with 331dot. ITN/C often operates in a way that violates WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL. It's disappointing. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:47, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Nowrapping of Ongoing entries
Is there a reason we are nowraping the entries in the Ongoing section? The list of recently featured articles on the Main Page doesn't do this, and the two should probably be consistent. --Bongwarrior (talk) 22:28, 16 December 2014 (UTC)


 * TFA subpages aren't routinely edited (and the list of recently featured articles is particularly unlikely to be modified), so the formatting used there (wherein each dash is affixed to the preceding link via an HTML-based non-breaking space) generally needn't be touched.
 * At ITN, things tend to break. The nowrap-based markup, being relatively familiar, proved more error-resistant.  The prevention of intralink line wrap is a nice bonus (particularly in the case of the "recent deaths" line, to which we apply the same formatting).
 * For consistency's sake (and because it would be an intrinsic improvement, I think), it probably would make sense to extend our use of the nowrap template to TFA. —David Levy 23:23, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Posting Criteria
I've debated with myself posting this on Jehochman's talk page rather than here, but I think it needs wider input. I've tried to characterise editors' positions fairly below, but I've pinged them all so that they are aware of the discussion and can correct the record below if I've got it wrong. If so, please accept my apologies.

There seems to be a basic disconnect between editors, or perhaps groups of editors, about what are the criteria for posting an item to WP:ITN.

On the one hand, some think that the main criterion is that an item is In The News. For instance, in current items we have So posting an item to ITN when it is the worldwide top story in the news is not the right time? When is? and It is in the News but there is still no link to a Wiki article unlike in most other cases, but by far the biggest proponent of this view seems to be  with this as part of the rationale for posting an item: The opposes based on the personal opinion that crackpots with guns don't deserve our attention aren't convincing when the story, for whatever reason, is making headlines around the world., this in defending that posting: It's generally accepted that we post items that are widely in the news, which this one clearly is, per the comments. If a handful of editors disagree with the policy/guidelines, they can't really generate a new consensus within the confines of this discussion, this in a discussion about an item: For good or for ill, our mission is to list articles "In the news" so people can learn about current events, this supporting a nomination: Support when the article is updated. The item is in the news, and the article has substantial enough content to appear on the main page once it is touched up, this in a discussion: Keep in mind that this item will be decided based on whether it is widely reported in the news, article quality, yada yada other criteria, not whether you think the item is newsworthy to pull a few recent examples.

On the other hand, another group of editors think that the main criterion is that an item has encyclopaedic value. This is often expressed by the phrase, We are not a news ticker. In this camp, we have  In my opinion, this is exactly the type of thing we should not post. It simply doesn't have encyclopaedic relevance in a wider context. WP:NOTNEWS springs to mind. I believe the purpose of ITN is to promote articles on news that has encyclopaedic relevance, Please understand that being major news is not the only consideration in posting something to the ITN box on the main page, as we aren't a news ticker,   Wikipedia is not a news ticker, nor should it be, and  WP, and particularly at ITN, need to avoid being too focused on events of the now and instead focus on the events with more long-term, larger-scope impact.

There is an existing consensus on the criteria for posting an item, expressed at WP:ITN in these words:

"Candidates for ITN are evaluated on two main grounds: the quality of the updated content and the significance of the developments described in the updated content."

There is a longer section earlier on that page about the purpose of ITN, which is often quoted, but the above quote represents the consensus on how items at ITN are to be evaluated.

I see nothing here about the breadth of news coverage an item is receiving. In light of this, I find Jechochman's statement that, If a handful of editors disagree with the policy/guidelines, they can't really generate a new consensus within the confines of this discussion, rather disturbing, as the existing guideline in fact appears to be entirely on the side of that 'handful' of editors. There is also the existing consensus expressed in policy at WP:NOTNEWS, which states:

"While including information on recent developments is sometimes appropriate, breaking news should not be emphasized or otherwise treated differently from other information."

This seems to me to also argue against breadth-of-coverage as a metric for assessing ITN items, and as policy our guidelines cannot override it.

On the other hand, assessing the significance of the developments described in the updated content is difficult, always subjective and hard to get perspective on when, pretty much by definition, all of the items we handle are going to have been posted in the last week. Since this criterion will always be a subjective assessment, discussions on items seem likely to descend to a 'Yes it is', 'No it isn't!' level of debate and the only methods available for an admin to decide whether to post an item or not will be either popularity (a vote) or the admin's own judgement of encyclopaedic value (ignoring the discussion altogether). Neither of these seems particularly desirable.

So what's needed here? Is the guideline out of step with reality and in need of updating? Or do some editors (and indeed admins) need reminding of what the guideline actually says and leave it at that?

Please understand that I'm not trying to stir up dissent here; I'm trying to get us all on the same page so that discussions at ITN/C are less adversarial. GoldenRing (talk) 23:43, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I think that ITN should be wound up. It is having nothing but a detrimental effect on the project. WP:NOTNEWS is important, and people here seem to be content to ignore it. What's more, it is being used for advocacy. I was particularly disturbed by Jehochman's comments in reply to me at this discussion on his talk page. For him, if people are searching for it, we must place it on the main page. It doesn't matter how significant the event is, for him. Whether the event is encyclopaedic or not is of no concern, in his view. Jehochman is WP:BULLDOZERING nominations that have significant objections through, despite his clear lack of any kind of neutrality in this regard. For him, as long as an event has "a lot of coverage", and is significant in his own eyes, it should be posted. That's what we've seen here. We might as well start a society page.


 * People must remember that this is an encylopaedia. It is not a newspaper, a blog, or any other variety of news outlet. The purpose of ITN, if it is to continue, must be to showcase good articles on encyclopaedic events that are being reported on in the news. It must be neither e a police blotter, nor a sensationalist tabloid. Mundane crime does not have a significant encyclopaedic value. Crime happens everywhere, at every moment. Merely because a criminal incident is reported on more heavily, because of where it took place, does not make it so significant as to feature on our main page, unless there are some extenuating circumstances that give it encyclopaedic significance.


 * As no one seems to care about any of this, ITN should be wound up, and replaced with something else that showcases our good articles. It should be replaced with something that has no focus on "news", as "news" is not what this project is or ever will be about. RGloucester  — ☎ 23:59, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
 * What exactly is "encyclopedic significance"? And who determines what is and is not?  What you might consider significant is not what others might.  I'm also not sure what "detrimental effects" you are referring to.  ITN helps the creation and improvement of articles that might not otherwise happen.
 * This is an encyclopedia. I am well aware of that- and I am aware it is not a paper encyclopedia. It should also be responsive to what people are looking for in order to remain relevant.  If you disagree with how an admin judges consensus and weighs arguments, you should take that up with them or make use of the appropriate processes to admonish them.  Disagreeing with what is posted is not a reason to "wind up" ITN. 331dot (talk) 00:05, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * We have policies that determine what is encyclopaedic and what isn't. We also have editorial discretion. If people are looking for news, they are meant to go to a newspaper, or perhaps Wikinews. They are not meant to come here. ITN causes the creation of articles that we don't need, and which don't belong here. They are products of systemic bias, and the deteriorate the quality of our publication. Wind it up. RGloucester  — ☎ 00:07, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Unless you are going to post a notice on the Main Page "don't come here looking for information on current events", people will come here for it. That's a fact and you cannot prevent people from doing so. "Articles we don't need" and "deteriorate the quality of our publication" are opinions which you are free to exercise through AfD and opposing nominations- unless you are a member of some official body which had made such formal determinations.  Not a reason to wind this up. Further, on a site which can be updated instantly upon something occurring, news certainly is at least a small aspect of this project- unless you are calling for limiting what edits can be made in some manner(time, newness of the subject). I couldn't disagree more with the idea that "news is not what this project is or will ever be about". It it at least a very small part of it. 331dot (talk) 00:14, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Further, this discussion is not about ending ITN; if you want to begin such a discussion, then do so. 331dot (talk) 00:15, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter what readers do, it matters what we do, and how we carry ourselves as an encyclopaedia. We cannot compromise our project, and our goals. This organisation is antithetical to all of our goals as a project. It wouldn't be, if people took into account what is encyclopaedic, and what is not. People do not do this, and what's more, we have entrenched editors like Jehochman using ITN for advocacy. It is a corrupt system, and it must be quashed. News is not part of our project. It never has been, and it never will be. I personally believe, yes, that articles should not be written as an event happens. Regardless of that, though, we have policies that dictate how articles should be written, and why they should be written. This are often ignored. WP:LASTING is a guideline. WP:DEPTH is a guideline. WP:PERSISTENCE is a guideline. They must be followed. This is not a "site", it is an encylopaedia, and it must be treated as such. People that abuse it have no place here. RGloucester  — ☎ 01:16, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Who determines what is encyclopedic and what is not? Are you a member of an official body that does so? You say the guidelines(which are just that, guidelines, not written in stone) aren't followed- but maybe others just interpret them in a different way that you do.  Your opinions aren't the only valid ones, nor are mine. What readers do does matter- we don't write this for ourselves, we write it for readers. As I said, post a notice on the main page telling people not to come here for current events if that's what you want. Clearly we have fundamentally different visions about this whole place is and should be- neither of which is less valid than the other. 331dot (talk) 01:31, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm also wondering who gave you the right to determine who should be here and who should not be here. 331dot (talk) 01:46, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * IAR says ignoring rules is okay if they prevent one from improving a quality of Wikipedia. Have we improved Wikipedia by posting the Sydney hostage incident? Speaking of the incident, the perpetrator lost his wife and kids in Iran because his country was too brutal to them. He had to escape to Australia, but he encountered White-occupied (probably I don't know how he had perceived them, but I should not jump to conclusions of racism) government, which he abhorred. We still don't know why he did the hostage, but I'm sure it's not terrorism. --George Ho (talk) 01:36, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I wasn't saying IAR was anything but. My point was that guidelines are guidelines and we determine how they apply, and that people can have differing opinions about it. Whether posting the Sydney event improves Wikipedia is a matter of opinion. If it results in a good article, I think it did help. 331dot (talk) 01:41, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * What is your opinion then? --George Ho (talk) 01:53, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * We aren't here to discuss my opinion about one nomination(that I supported). 331dot (talk) 02:00, 16 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I made my post in a time-based context regarding the Sydney event nomination; at the time we didn't have all the information so I encouraged waiting as we aren't a news ticker, until we did have more information. I think in general news coverage is an important, but not the sole, consideration. It is one indication of the significance of a story.  331dot (talk) 00:18, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * While the characterisation of my opinion above is not inaccurate per se, it is not the whole of it. I would say that an item which is not listed at ITN/R and not a recent deaths nomination (for which different criteria apply) should be posted to ITN when all the following are true:

AND at least one of the following is also true
 * The story is in the news (i.e. it is covered by multiple independent news sources.)
 * There is one or more encyclopaedia articles that are all of
 * Relevant to the news story
 * Of good quality
 * Up to date with reference to the story
 * There is a consensus among people who have made relevant comments at ITN/C to post the story.
 * The story has (or will have) long-lasting significance for a significant number of people
 * The story has (or will have) a significant impact on a field (e.g. academic discipline, national-level politics, field of engineering, genre of music, etc)
 * The story is a significant event in the history of a country (or equivalently significant area) or of an internationally significant event (e.g. major war, supranational grouping, etc)
 * The second set of criteria are guidelines, and they are deliberately subjective. The points are also all linked - the greater the amount (breadth, depth and geographical spread) of news coverage the less strictly the subjective criteria need to be interpreted (and vice versa). Encyclopaedic value is determined by the linked article(s) - the greater the sum of the amount and quality of material added to the encyclopaedia the greater the encyclopaedic value. If there is very little added then the encyclopaedic value is almost nil.
 * This is all based on how interpret the consensus about what should be posted that is posted above, rather than a replacement for that. Thryduulf (talk) 00:26, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Another angle on this&mdash;I'm not saying better or worse&mdash;might be to ask "what Wikipedia articles of reasonable quality and importance would/might significant numbers of our readers (including casual readers and newcomers) who follow current events of significance be interested in reading?" Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:50, 16 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I submit that what major, reliable news outlets publish is equivalent to what people want to read. Major media companies have software and staff that monitors traffic and they use that info to decide what to publish. I agree that we should ignore tabloids and similar media that focus on sensationalistic nonsense of no long term importance.  I also agree that we can use ITN/R to give more prominence to news such as elections in minor countries or championships in minor sports or scientific discoveries.  Finally, I think we can down weight boring rerun stories like shootings in America which all too common. Jehochman Talk 01:17, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * We are not a "media company". We are an encylopaedia, and have a duty as such to view everything in historical context. Media companies determine what they publish based on marketing, and such market-based determinations are antithetical to the concept of a "free encylopaedia". Do media companies provide "what people want to read", or do they decide what they think people "should read"? People don't know what they want to read until they see it, until it is given to them on the front page. It is not our job to reproduce the marketing of media companies. It is our job to write encyclopaedic articles. If an event is significant from an encyclopaedic perspective, and it is "in the news", it should be posted. If an event is merely a simple crime of parochial interest, it should not. This is a question of thinking, to the degree that we can, whether an event will have significance in ten years in a global context. One example of this type of recentism-based thinking recently appeared to me in the Carnation Massacre article, which by all accounts is neither encyclopaedic nor something of lasting significance. It is a parochial crime, and this shooting in Pennsylvania, the hostage situation in New South Wales, these are no different. The more articles we create like this, the more we compromise the encylopaedia's ability to think about history. I know it is hard, in this instantaneous age, to think about relevance in this way. However, it is necessary. RGloucester  — ☎ 01:25, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Saying boring may imply shallow personality. You're not that shallow, are you? Your arguments encourage depicting ITN as what is encyclopedic or can be encyclopedic. Nevertheless, if we can post the Sydney hostage crisis on the Main Page, why not more developing news about Syrian Civil War? RGloucester has a point about what ITN has become. Too bad there aren't any suitable replacements for ITN. Why not replace ITN with Good Article entry? --George Ho (talk) 01:32, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * If you have newsworthy events in the Syrian Civil War, please nominate an appropriate article to update(or that has been updated) along with news sources demonstrating they are newsworthy. People do a great job of saying what they don't like to see posted but rarely make nominations showing what they do like to see posted. 331dot (talk) 01:43, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Not all news or obituaries are globally significant. Also, not all articles are in good shape. That's why we either are reluctant to post nominations or fail to reach consensus. --George Ho (talk) 01:53, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Global significance is not a requirement- if it was, very little would be posted. ITN often motivates improvements to an article.  331dot (talk) 01:58, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * You could be right on "global significance". Reading zh:维基百科, es:Wikipedia, and de:Wikipedia, the Spanish Wikipedia doesn't do blurbs but lists the Sydney situation, while two others don't. Why are such ways different from English one? --George Ho (talk) 02:30, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * ja:ウィキペディア doesn't do In the News. --George Ho (talk) 02:32, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

If there were more nominations we could up our game. One reason borderline stuff gets posted is that there's nothing better available. Please nominate the type of articles you'd like to see posted. If you like geography, Denmark just filed a claim of sovereignty over the North Pole. The article Territorial claims in the Arctic  could be updated and posted. Jehochman Talk 05:32, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * It is better to post nothing than to compromise the integrity of encylopaedia. I do think a proposal to wind up ITN must be drawn-up. I shall think on it. RGloucester  — ☎ 05:34, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * It's so much easier to attempt to tear apart somebody else's work than to build something oneself. Rock on.  We'll see if that proposal goes anywhere. Jehochman Talk 05:44, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Spare me, sir. I've done plenty of writing for this project. ITN is not working, whether you like it or not. It is clear from your response and prior actions that you think of it as your personal fiefdom, and that's not something that can be tolerated. If I propose anything, I shall also propose a replacement to fill the late ITN's slot on the main page. I don't know why you don't move to Wikinews, if you like "current events" as much as you seem to do. RGloucester  — ☎ 05:52, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Someone making a good faith interpretation of consensus on a posting does not a "personal fiefdom" make. Even if it is true that Jehochman is using ITN as his "personal fiefdom"(which isn't true) how are you acting any differently?  You only want to see posted what you feel should be posted and what you feel is beneficial.   It's one thing to disagree with someone's judgement but another to call them names for it.  I tend to notice that it is the people who are dissatisfied with what is posted who feel that it is "not working". You don't like what is posted, make some nominations. 331dot (talk) 11:47, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * There isn't any "good faith" involved. It is a supervote. I'm "acting differently" because I'm just one voice of many. I haven't done anything to force through nominations. I won't make any nominations, because I'm interested in history, not writing a newspaper. Therefore, you shan't see me over here, making nominations, because this whole thing is a racket antithetical to the project. RGloucester  — ☎ 15:25, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * There is certainly good faith involved. You are saying that those who post things you disagree with are out to harm Wikipedia.  If judging consensus here is a "supervote", then that occurs all over Wikipedia.  There is no need to be offensive by calling this a "racket" and say people who judge consensus are in a "personal fiefdom".  I look skeptically upon proposals from people who do that and from those who decline to be involved but still levy criticism. 331dot (talk) 18:48, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I disagree with posting things after a short period when there are significant objections, which has recurrently happened here. "Judging consensus" does not mean ignoring opinions one dislikes. ITN is a racket. Perhaps you are in too deep to see that, or you are part of the problem. Time will tell. RGloucester  — ☎ 18:58, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I have to say, I'm leaning towards agreeing with RGloucester, here. We have an existing consensus on the criteria for posting articles, and no existing consensus on how often they should be posted.  So I'm struggling to see your opinion that there aren't enough items posted as justification for ignoring the consensus on which items should be posted.  GoldenRing (talk) 05:41, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * We don't post anything that's poor quality, but when there's an item on the fence, if there's something better right next to it, you know which will get posted. Jehochman Talk 05:46, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * But better according to what metric? It seems fairly clear that you apply the metric of news coverage; it seems equally clear that this is not the metric established by consensus.  GoldenRing (talk) 08:04, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Jehochman, what is your goal for Wikipedia? I wonder if you have travelled around the world. Never mind. I haven't travelled to another country, but I still have been empathetic to world events. Perhaps we can set up newer rules for ITN? --George Ho (talk) 09:13, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * My goal is to inform the readership by providing them a with high quality, interesting articles. I have travelled quite a bit. New rules are totally fine if they make things better. It may be useful to discuss proposals at the village pump to encourage broad participation. I'd like to see less conflict at ITN. Our current criteria are lacking, contradictory and sometimes produce results that are less than ideal. Jehochman Talk 12:08, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

ITN is still a good vehicle when we have an existing article on a subject and news on that changes/develops, or we have an event that we know will be documented (like elections and sporting events) that we're just waiting for the event to happen to finish it. Its events no one expects (for better or worse) that is where ITN has the largest issue, and that follows from the longer trends of issues with WP's WP:NOT aspect. People want to race to be the first to create an article on a breaking event without establishing if the event is notable or has the permanence for an encyclopedia, and that creates a glut of articles that after a few days have no further coverage and will be forgotten for the most part. ITN needs to be a bit careful in how it selects topics, and because we are not a news ticker, we don't have to follow exactly what the news is covering nor with the timeliness they demand. We should be waiting for the article on the event to prove that it has more that can be said than just simply recounting the events, except in rare IAR cases (like I think we did with the Boston Marathon bombings). And that might mean that an event well-covered by the news cycle is something we simply ignore for ITN. --M ASEM (t) 17:46, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I didn't expect to say this, but I strongly agree with Masem. If ITN is to continue, it must place a high burden on adherence to the WP:EVENT notability criteria. RGloucester  — ☎ 18:13, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I wanna know how many successfully posted ITN articles were eventually deleted due to failing the WP:EVENT criteria. Well of course, after being posted. – H T  D  18:42, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter whether they were deleted or not (WP:OTHERSTUFF). Merely because a policy or guideline has been applied incorrectly does not mean that we should not follow that policy or guideline. As this is about the main page, we must take a much more strict line in applying our guidelines and policies. RGloucester  — ☎ 18:54, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I am aware of ITN/C articles that were AFD during or shortly after the ITN/C period but not ITN posted. But not aware of any posted ITN that were soon after the subject of deletion. --M ASEM (t) 18:59, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * We can't conclusively say than an article has violated WP:EVENT if it hasn't been deleted or even tagged(?). If this is a very rampant problem here at ITN, surely many ITN articles should have been deleted or tagged by now. Where are they? – H T  D  19:00, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The problem lies in what is nominated, not necessarily in what is posted. At the moment, ITN encourages nominations of items that don't meet WP:EVENT, and encourages a news-like style of writing that is inappropriate. Occasionally some of these nominations get through, and that's the problem. Regardless, if we went by what you just said, we could never conclusively say anything. Again, merely because a policy is applied incorrectly or inconsistently does not mean we should not follow it. This is especially true for the main page, where the burden is higher. RGloucester  — ☎ 19:04, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd say that this is a valid gripe. But as long as it's not posted, and there's no implicit WP:CON that says that it fails WP:EVENT, I'd say that it's not detrimental to the project. I'm not saying we shouldn't follow it, I'm asking if the articles posted, sure, being nominated, fail WP:EVENT. If someone nominates an article, is not posted, and is deleted eventually, there's no harm done as it was deleted and won't have to affect the quality of other articles. What's our definition of "harming the project"? We have noobs contributing articles that would never be expanded from their states as stubs because no one checked them out if they're even notable. Is that bad? The only way to find out is to take action, not a blanket statement that "everything that is done here is bad."
 * An article about, say, Kim Kardashian's ass broke the internet being at ITN would surely fail WP:EVENT; now if there's a very U.S.-centric version of ITN, would A Rape on Campus fail WP:EVENT? – H T  D  19:15, 16 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Maybe a lot of things can at least start to be improved with a slight name change. Instead of 'in the news' we could call it something else, though I'm not exactly sure what.  Something that still indicates it links to articles about topical and somewhat current information. "Articles About Current Events" or something(though it should sound somewhat catchy). 331dot (talk) 18:51, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Implicitly, ITN is "(Topics of Articles that are) In the News", putting more weight on existing or obvious articles, with understanding that articles under 24-48hr old due to the recentness of the event may be more difficult to tell. If the idea of ITN being in a predominate spot on the main page is to draw in editors to help build an article with recent information about it, the more established the article, the better. Again, not that breaking stories cannot be here, but we shouldn't be trying to think of ourselves as mirroring the current coverage of the press; we are in no way competing for their ability to stay instanteously accurate. --M ASEM (t) 18:57, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I am starting to think that a name change will help with that; if we want to move away from mirroring top stories in the news, the word 'news' may not need to be in the name of this. It might help with the perception issues regarding the posting criteria for both those making nominations and those assessing them. I don't think it would be a silver bullet, but it is something to think about anyway. 331dot (talk) 01:35, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I too agree that a renaming would be a step in the right direction. The question is, of course, what do we name it? RGloucester  — ☎ 01:53, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know a solution, but something to keep in mind is how DYK has "From Wikipedia's new and recently improved content:" in the tag line. If we were to reflect that ITN were new and established articles with topics in the news, that might help. But I don't have a firm answer here. --M ASEM (t) 03:43, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm having trouble thinking of a name that would be catchy and simple yet still convey the right message. 331dot (talk) 09:56, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, agreed, Masem has hit the nail on the head here. IMO there is nothing wrong with the existing criteria, as they are written down; the problem is that all too often admins ignore those criteria when deciding whether to post; indeed, I've cited examples above where an admin has used criteria contrary to what is written down and berated other editors for not following the established guideline.  The problem is indeed with unexpected and widely-covered events.  We should resist calls to post-something-now-because-it's-all-over-the-news-and-we-look-ridiculous-for-not-covering-it.  But it only takes one admin to agree with them and ignore the guideline to get the item posted.  And, yes, I'm looking at one admin in particular here, though he's not the only culprit.  It seems to me the right answer is a large trout to that admin, to recalibrate his ideas; but it seems he's not listening, instead blaming the criteria, the nominator, other editors, anyone and anything, really, except him.  GoldenRing (talk) 00:13, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
 * After my failed nominations, I wonder if I'm cut out for ITN anymore. I was close to nominating 2014 Russian financial crisis for ITN, but I didn't want another failure again. Therefore, I nominated it for DYK project instead. At least I can edit templates at Portal:Current. Editing them is so easier than more frivolous ITN. --George Ho (talk) 05:44, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Diversity
I think we might want to better define diversity. At List of continents by population we see that Asia has 4.2 billion of 7.1 people on earth. Africa as 1.0 billion and the Americas about 0.9 billion with South America exceeding North America by about 0.1, and Europe at about 0.7 billion. Our news items should roughly reflect world demographics. At the moment we have 4 Asia stories, 1 Africa, 1 North America and 1 Oceania (including ongoing items ebola and ISIS). This is just about right. If we have enough items to choose from, we should try to keep geographic balance. We should also keep topic balance: some politics/military/crime, some culture/sports, some science, some {list of other fields}. Jehochman Talk 14:27, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * In the name of diversity ITN always has something about the Irish that slips through the cracks very easily... – H T  D  14:33, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's achievable for ITN to "roughly reflect world demographics", and I don't actually see any reason it would be desirable. In theory, this would mean pretty much always having at least one story each from India and China in the box, featuring a US story maybe once a month and a Uk story two or three times a year. RD would be constant stream of people none of our readers have ever heard of. In practice, Wikipedia would not be able to generate the articles. It's natural for ITN to be biased in various ways and the question is really just whether the bias is excessive or not. Formerip (talk) 20:10, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not a frequent contributor to ITN, but I'd like to see a bit more diversity. Perhaps not just along the lines of political boundaries but on alternative topics like scientific/technology/business issues (and maybe the odd entertainment story?) that also get news coverage. At the moment we have two elections, two shootings, a committee report and blurb on monarchy. I'm sure this has been brought up before but it seems like unless it's on ITN/R, has fatalities or a media frenzy it's unlikely to get enough support to be posted on ITN. Fuebaey (talk) 03:11, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, there's an "odd entertainment story" (that doesn't involve dead white dudes or award shows) at WP:ITN/C right now, and it's getting clobbered. – H T  D  12:35, 18 December 2014 (UTC)


 * First, this is the English language Wikipedia, that articles might be somewhat more focused on areas with native speakers of English shouldn't be seen as problematic. Second, we had the "minority topic" criterion, and that was done away with, what, two years ago?  Third, the answer is simply to nominate good candidates.  The only bias ever shown at ITN is against American subjects, No one has ever argued that we shouldn't publish yet another story from Mexico or Germany.  If we are worried about geographic balance, Canadian, Siberian, and Mongolian and Kazakh stories are woefully underrepresented.  Finally, we don't pick from a list of candidates, as is done with FA.  We have to deal with what reality sends us, and sometimes that means random chance wreaks havoc with our desire for symmetry. μηδείς (talk) 23:56, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

New criteria proposal
Jehochman asked me to propose a draft of revised criteria for posting ITN items, and I'm happy to oblige. As he has shown interest in addressing the concerns mentioned, I have hope that we will be able to reform this process for the good of the encylopaedia. My proposed draft criteria is as follows:

What do you fellows think? I believe that this calls attention to the appropriate policies and guidelines, and ensures more caution in making a posting than does the present criteria. RGloucester — ☎ 19:00, 17 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I think this is a very good starting point, and that perhaps editors will come forward with requests for minor changes or clarifications. I feel like the main change you are requesting, which I agree with, is that we should consider the importance of the linked topic. One measure of encyclopedic importance is the article's importance ratings, as given by various WikiProjects and found on the article talk page, if present.  An ITN candidate that links to a higher importance article should be given greater consideration than one linking to an article of lower importance. Jehochman Talk 19:20, 17 December 2014 (UTC)


 * My initial reading gives me the sense that this is a good start as well. This might work well in conjunction with renaming ITN to better reflect this proposed text and reduce the influence of the 'news' aspect while still being relevant to current events. 331dot (talk) 09:46, 18 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I like it. On a couple of minor points, the page currently contains the spelling "encyclopedic" (the Britishisation of which presumably was unconscious), and we should avoid referring to ITN's material as "featured" (which can be changed to "showcased") to discourage confusion with Wikipedia's featured content.  (I just tweaked the page's current wording for this reason.)  —David Levy 10:44, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I've changed it to "showcased". I can hardly be expected to write in a foreign tongue. RGloucester  — ☎ 15:00, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Hence my presumption that the inconsistency was unconscious. The spelling used above makes little difference, of course.  —David Levy 15:11, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I like the concept. I don't think it's effectively much different to the guideline we currently have, but spells it out much more clearly.  On a drafting note, I think it would be better to say what ITN is before we say what it isn't.  The current wording sounds overly defensive.  I think it could be improved considerably just by re-ordering the first two sentences.  GoldenRing (talk) 01:15, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
 * It is defensive, because it needs to be. It ensures that the appropriate policies are referred to and followed. The tide of news is a great danger. RGloucester  — ☎ 02:51, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Just a note: WP:DYK leads off with what they are and not what they aren't. 331dot (talk) 13:35, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
 * To be clear, this is the criteria section, which is not the start of the page. Perhaps one should look at the page as arranged now. This will fit into the section called "Criteria", which is after the introduction. Regardless, DYK doesn't need to be defensive, because it is not based in a concept that is antithetical to the encyclopaedia. RGloucester  — ☎ 15:21, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't agree; this isn't a collection of trivia any more than it is a collection of news stories. It's up to those participating to implement the text. I also don't think that motivating the creation and/or improvement of articles is "antithetical to the encyclopedia".  Yes, sometimes we get carried away with breaking news(which is why changes like this may be needed) but getting some decent articles at the end of the process isn't a bad thing. 331dot (talk) 17:23, 19 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I don't particularly like the change. I think this is a case of a solution in search of a problem. We should try to be more inclusive, but I feel the change would lead to less postings.  -- Calidum  01:35, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I support the concept, but hope you don't mind some proposed textual amendments, as below. doktorb wordsdeeds 17:44, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Object to all. This is not a constitution. I vehemently object to the third one, especially. Please note that adherence to policies and guidelines is already mentioned. RGloucester  — ☎ 17:53, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
 * It's a draft but you won't allow amendments? I helped draft the policy for Ongoing, so am acutely aware of how carefully phrased these things must be. I am not an enemy of this process (I used to be very regular at ITN and believe you have some very constructive ideas for how to improve it). I am here to support getting this right. doktorb wordsdeeds 17:58, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm British. We don't do written constitutions. There must be flexibility. Regardless, all your proposed amendments are bad. "Breaking news stories" will never be and never should be "fast-tracked". That's the most dangerous language I've ever heard. "Notability concerns" is covered by "policies and guidelines", mentioned earlier. Administrators have no "rights". RGloucester  — ☎ 18:02, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
 * You realize you are simultaneously advocating for flexibility and inflexibility at the same time? 331dot (talk) 18:11, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
 * This whole existence is contradictory. Is it surprising, then, that this is too? That's one of the wonders of the British constitution. RGloucester  — ☎ 18:15, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm from Preston in Lancashire. I know we don't do constitutions, I'm not asking for one. I'm simply suggesting, politely, that your draft should have a few textual amendments applied to it for clarity. As I say, I helped draft the current policy which underpins the Ongoing element of ITN; I am acutely aware of how important it is to phrase these things correctly. I hope we can work together, and with the wider community, to make your draft the best it can be. I want to support this concept, and you, I am not objecting for the sake of it. doktorb wordsdeeds 18:09, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
 * That's fine and good, but "amendments" implies legalism, as does use of words like "rights". I object to them all, as they are bad. RGloucester  — ☎ 18:15, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
 * "Amendments" is merely a term to describe what I am proposing - an amendment to your draft text. It is common across Wikipedia for editors to suggest amendments to policies. If I've used an incorrect term, I apologise, I didn't mean to upset. The word "rights" in this context is drawn from the ability of administrators to move ITN stories to Ongoing (as permitted) in specific circumstances. If I can find the paragraph of policy, I'll post it to your talk page for info. doktorb wordsdeeds 18:25, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
 * "Ability" to do something is not a "right". Regardless, this is about the criteria for inclusion, not about anyone's ability to move things about. RGloucester  — ☎ 18:27, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Absolutely "ability" is not a "right", but I just wanted to make sure that your draft (which I broadly support) is broad enough to incorporate existing policy as well as develop new policy. Again, I don't want to sound like I'm objecting for the sake of it, I actually do support you and want to work with you on this doktorb wordsdeeds 18:40, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Right now, there have been no recent nominations lately. In other words, this proposal is becoming pointless and too much for a nomination to be eligible for. I have no choice but to oppose changes until we can figure out how ITN should work without additional rules. --George Ho (talk) 00:57, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * No "new rules" have been proposed. It is a good thing not to have a constant stream of nominations. It isn't ITN's fault that there is a slow news period, at the moment. RGloucester  — ☎ 01:00, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * This time period is typically a slow period as usually little (worthy of being posted) happens at the end of the year and even into January. There aren't a lot of ITNR events as well; we get award ceremonies and the Super Bowl after January. 331dot (talk) 01:04, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I am awfully confused. "No rules have been proposed", yet that's exactly what the proposal would set in place. It's a draft, apparently, but not a draft for amending, because amendments are somehow bad or un-British. Just what is this section for? doktorb wordsdeeds 17:37, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * It is a draft for rewriting the criteria section of the ITN page. That's all. No "rules" are involved. We don't have rules. One cannot "amend it", because legal language is inappropriate. One can revise it, however. All of your proposed revisions are bad, however, which you fail to acknowledge. RGloucester  — ☎ 18:08, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * You having the opinion that they are "bad" does not mean they are bad, unless you have some official standing on Wikipedia that I am unaware of. "Amend" is not always a legal term. 331dot (talk) 18:11, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * They are bad. It is that simple. I've explained why they are bad. They shan't be put in my draft. RGloucester  — ☎ 18:13, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * My only point is that there is a difference between your opinion that they are bad and an official judgment of them being bad, again, unless you have some sort of official standing or authority here. Someone is certainly free to post their own draft with the changes they want irrespective of your ownership of the proposal. 331dot (talk) 18:16, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Your point is that you like rubbish legalisms and redundant wordiness? A shame. RGloucester  — ☎ 18:20, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your opinion. You could at least be willing to work with people to accommodate their views(as Doktorbuk has stated they want to do with you) before condemning those views. But I guess it's all or nothing. You must know more than I or Doktorbuk do. 331dot (talk) 18:26, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * User:RGloucester, you do come across here as someone who does not wish to engage in debate or discussion unless it's specifically on your exact terms. I have offered to help. I have brought to your attention existing ITN policy which needs to be considered alongside your draft. I have tried to meet you part way. I feel you don't wish to cooperate. doktorb wordsdeeds 18:57, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * This has nothing to do with the existing "ITN policy". This is a draft proposal of criteria for ITN postings. Nothing more. Nothing less. They are not a straitjacket, nor a constitution. Administrators have no "rights" to do anything anywhere, as I've already made clear. Nothing in this draft has anything to do with the ongoing section. The third revision has nothing to do with "existing ITN policy", and everything to do with an attempt to make us a newspaper or a news ticker when we are not. Nothing about revision three has anything to do with "existing policy". It is an attempt to shoehorn in something that will protect the exact type of behaviour that this proposal is trying to curtail. Breaking news stories will never be "fast-tracked", and in most cases they will not be posted at all. The first revision is redundant, and uses jargon like "tagged". Already, the draft says that the articles posted must meet all Wikipedia policies and guidelines. RGloucester  — ☎ 19:04, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * So to be clear, a draft guideline for the criteria for ITN postings has nothing to do with ITN policy? When are guidelines not intrinsically linked to policies? doktorb wordsdeeds 21:21, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * This draft will only replace the first paragraph of the criteria section of the ITN page, which does not presently speak about "ongoing" or anything else. It is merely a rewrite of that paragraph. Everything else will remain the same, and hence, nothing will change on the matter that you mention.

Proposed textual amendment (1)

 * After the words "encyclopaedic significance", add "and are not tagged for notability concerns" doktorb wordsdeeds 17:44, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Proposed textual amendment (2)

 * After "...should not be proposed", add "This does not invalidate the right of administrators or others to update the "Ongoing" section, the criteria for inclusion in which is not amended by this policy." doktorb wordsdeeds 17:44, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Proposed textual amendment (3)

 * Remove "but that caution should be taken in posting articles on breaking news stories" and replace with "but editors must be aware that nominations for breaking news stories will not necessarily be fast-tracked to the front page." doktorb wordsdeeds 17:44, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Maintenance tag spam
With the tend in recent years for editors to spend their time slapping maintenance tags on articles, rather than improving them ("Here's a tag, somebody else can improve it"), ITN shouldn't bar articles just because they are tagged for minor issues. Best practice should be to do a quick cleanup and then remove any tags about minor issues such as "Could use more references". Most articles can, even featured articles. I recently saw a featured article that was tagged. One editor thought the lead was too long. Presumably we could find another editor who would say. As long as the article isn't tagged for serious problems, such as or, we shouldn't disqualify. Jehochman Talk 15:52, 6 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Lacking references is a serious problem as an encyclopedia. If we are talking Edward Brooke as the example, there's at least 2 full paragraphs lacking any citations (as I write this), which is not "good enough" for posting a link too from ITN. Even if the article lacks these tags, we when reviewing the ITNC should be checking on that, and we have in the past not posted ITNCs for lacking references/article quality even though the article was absent maintenance tags. --M ASEM (t) 15:56, 6 January 2015 (UTC)


 * I agree with Masem, we're not a news ticker, we're not here to swiftly add dead Americans against encyclopaedic requirements to the main page. There is another project dedicated to news, Wikinews, which could be a better place for those who seek to run a ticker.   We have maintenance tags for a reason, and I object to be tacitly labelled as an editor who spends time "slapping maintenance tags on articles, rather than improving them".  I have improved several dozen ITN articles, mainly those which I know something about.  What we should be doing is encouraging all those who support a nomination without even seeming to check the article quality to check the article quality and improve it if required.  The Rambling Man (talk) 16:00, 6 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Thank you both for your comments, but there is a consensus to post this. If you see any information that is seriously dubious, please point it out on the article talk page or just go ahead and remove.  Inline citations are not strictly required.  We have articles with a list of citations at the bottom. I read the article and did not see anything contentious or dubious, but perhaps I missed something. Please see also Responsible tagging.  If there are specific problems they should be listed in detail on the article talk page.  Vague tags are not helpful. Jehochman Talk 16:05, 6 January 2015 (UTC)


 * As I said, many commentators support a nomination without assessing the quality of the article. Just blindly following consensus when we know we must ensure quality control for items on the main page if nowhere else is not a good idea.  That's not what responsible and intelligent administrators should do.  Plus, I think [citation needed] is not in any way vague.   The Rambling Man (talk) 16:08, 6 January 2015 (UTC)


 * No, is beautiful and I have fixed the one you added already. Jehochman Talk 16:11, 6 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Well I think I added at least seven, hence the use of the ref improve template, the section needs more. But you skipped over the consensus comment.  It's pretty clear that none of the supporters have read the whole article as some of it is still written in the wrong tense..... The Rambling Man (talk) 16:20, 6 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Article quality is a requirement; we have had discussed before and situations where items from ITN/R were not posted because of a lack of article quality despite the event meeting ITNR - that's why we have ITNC's for those. And I personally am not looking for GA/FA-quality of sourcing, but at least on average a cite per paragraph particularly when talking about things that would appear to come from interviews, secondary sources, or other statements that would require more than a simple google search. We want these articles to be in a state that when new readers come to look at them (due to their focus on the front page) they will know how they can contribute and do it easily. Citations are critical for helping these people become editors. --M ASEM (t) 16:17, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

How are we doing at TFA?
Bencherlite mentioned that it can make it hard to gauge how many items to include in ITN if the TFA column varies in length from day to day ... I'm just checking to make sure the small variations we've had so far in January have been working for you guys. - Dank (push to talk) 03:53, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Seems fine to me.  Spencer T♦ C 15:37, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Likewise, I haven't noticed any problems.
 * And I'll note that while such consistency is helpful, it shouldn't be prioritized. If adjusting a TFA blurb's length would reduce its quality substantially, it's preferable to shift the burden to ITN, where we can add or remove items with minimal inconvenience.
 * Another option is to schedule articles whose blurbs are unusually long or short (one or the other, not both) on consecutive days when feasible (i.e. when no other concerns, such as date relevance or topical variety, interfere). That way, ITN needn't be adjusted as frequently.  —David Levy 20:00, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

ITN/RD Stale
Mario Cuomo passed away two weeks ago, and Edward Brooke 10 days ago. Can we post some of the more recent Recent Deaths to replace them? I think a brief featuring of a less overwhelmingly supported candidate is better than a long listing of a candidate that has lost the public's interest. Listings at the front page definitely drive reader attention, and this does lead (generally) to article improvement. μηδείς (talk) 21:08, 13 January 2015 (UTC)


 * They're both overdue removal, so we don't necessarily need new deaths to bump them. Formerip (talk) 21:31, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Agreed; they should be removed whether they are replaced or not. 331dot (talk) 21:56, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
 * If the date of death of an RD is older than the date of the oldest full blurb, then it gets removed. That's the rule that's generally followed. Stephen 22:43, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
 * (ec) We don't necessarily need new deaths to bump them, but the posting of Mozambique funeral beer poisoning has lead to significant improvements in that article. Admins have discretion, and don't need to hold off on posting other listings which have some valid support and no overriding objections. μηδείς (talk) 22:45, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Proposing a section for "Future" ITN/C
An idea based on one of the current ITN/C's (the Croatian election), for ITN/R's where there is usually a page for the specific results (so, say the results of an election, or the results of a sporting event like the Superbowl), we could have a placeholder section "Upcoming events" to seed these no earlier more than a week earlier specifically to make sure that the article quality is highlighted and hoping to attract editors to help out so that when the event is completed, there is minimal time between the conclusion and posting. The format approach would be the same (using the ITN Candidate template), and when the event actually occurs, the nomination is simply moved from this holding section into the actual nomination queue, allowing any ongoing discussion to occur. The only thing that might not be known is a quality blurb but that's something that can be added once the event is moved from the holding section to the right date. It would not be required, obviously, but if an editor wants to get a jump to minimize time on this ITN/R events to get posting, this would help. --M ASEM (t) 21:44, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Support a good idea, we've often seen ITN/R's being suggested before they've been updated, and while it may result in them being updated, it'd be better to be wholly explicit about it and have a section that says "this stuff will get posted, as long as the article is in good nick. It's up to you guys to make it so." The Rambling Man (talk) 21:48, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
 * FWIW there was a "future queue" page a couple of years ago. – H T  D  16:21, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Yep, and it was rarely used. Not necessarily a bad idea, but something would have to be done to overcome the historical lack of interest. A calendar (which seems to be the proposal) as opposed to a special section of candidate discussion (what was done before) might prove useful. --ThaddeusB (talk) 20:27, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Agreed, a calendar would be good, especially for ITNR items which are perennially nominated for no good reason as they're not updated. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:06, 14 January 2015 (UTC)


 * The only consensus that could be made in such a staging area is on the importance of the event, and perhaps a blurb template. As you mentioned, after the event occurs there would still need to be consensus on the article quality and the finalized blurb. I'm not confident that such an early discussion would be worth the organizational/navigational time & effort, but I certainly wouldn't be opposed to trying. Mamyles (talk) 21:01, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

2014 FIFA Ballon d'Or (giggles)
I was under the distinct impression this would of been nominated on ITN/C with fervent gusto after the award ceremony took place? Can I actually take this opportunity to congratulate whoever resisted the urge to put this article forward for nomination? And on a side note, wasn't this ITN/R? Oh thank God it didn't appear. At any rate. --Somchai Sun (talk) 18:38, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Comment on content, not contributors

 * "Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about. It's a record for cricket, it's a record for international cricket.... Wow, worst oppose I've seen ever."
 * "Ironically, all Muboshgu "showed" was that he didn't do any research and selectively ignored the fact that one of his two "examples" was still open with support. Brilliant work, the pair of you."
 * "Yep, to attempt to compare a season-long scoring record in a specific league with a fundamental cricketing world record just demonstrates the lack of understanding some individuals have here."

Is there any value in these remarks? I'm trying to understand what value it adds, and why it doesn't seem to stop. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.22.93.195 (talk) 21:36, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I can understand how some of those comments might be interpreted as offensive. However, this talk page is not the place to discuss individual editor behavior. Please take it up on the editors(s) talk page(s), even anonymously if you'd like. If the talk page does not resolve behavioral problems to your liking, there are other places to escalate. I think that if this is a problem, it is with individual editors and not the process itself. It wouldn't hurt for all of us to read WP:CIVIL sometime, though. Mamyles (talk) 21:53, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * This is the place to point out general observations of conduct and generally remind us all about how certain types of comments can be perceived and that every one of us can always do better. 331dot (talk) 03:35, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Congolese Riots
This nomination about congolese riots by has been marked ready for 30 hours without admin comment or action. Can or  or any other admins who pay attention here please post the nomination or explain what work still needs doing? Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 00:20, 25 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Why was this posting removed before it was a week old, and after it had been posted less than two days? The ITN section is not overcrowded. It could certainly be restored until bumped--note also the improvement to the article since it was posted. μηδείς (talk) 22:24, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅  Spencer T♦ C 07:14, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

RD instructions relating to the article "class"
Currently we have a clause in the RD instructions that states "the article as a whole must be B-class and/or be satisfactorily filled out with no major omissions of the person's life and effect". It strikes me we pay no attention whatsoever to the "class" of the article, indeed just tonight we have R. K. Laxman posted whose article is still classified as a "Start" quality article. Now I realise we have the caveat that the article should be "satisfactorily filled out" (whatever that really means) but my question is, do we really need a reference to a specific class of article? History seems to dictate that we wholesale ignore it and therefore it is my proposal that we remove that clause altogether and just state "the article has been satisfactorily updated and has no major omissions of the person's life and effect". The Rambling Man (talk) 21:22, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * No, because the class of article stated on the talkpage is often not a good reflection of the quality of the article, and anyone can re-assess the status upwards if they want to get around a rule. I also think your standards are too high. Articles just need to be reasonably well sourced and not raise any obvious red flags. I looked at the RK Laxman article not all that long after it was nominated and it was fine. Or, if it wasn't, we've been in error with most of the things that have been posted to ITN since I started on Wikipedia. Formerip (talk) 21:30, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by "No"? Your text implies you agree with me that it should be removed as we regularly post items which are not classified as B-class, nor do we ever discuss the fact they should be B-class per the instructions, yet you say "No"...  What are you actually saying?  If you looked at the Laxman article and missed the fact that about half of it was unreferenced, that's really a comment about your competence rather than my adherence to standards I'm afraid.  The Rambling Man (talk) 21:33, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I misread your question. I think getting rid of the class specification would be a good idea, but I would add something about "reasonably well-sourced" to the replacement text you propose. The important part of my answer, though, is that I think your standards are too high. Formerip (talk) 21:56, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * And I think your standards are too low. The fact you considered an article with utterly insufficient referencing to be "fine" is indicative of a misunderstanding as to what is really required as a minimum around here.  We already have a caveat that states that RD items should comply with BLP which means good sourcing is already required, despite your opinion.  The Rambling Man (talk) 22:09, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The opinions of the other editors in the Laxman nomination discussion tell me I'm not misunderstanding anything. You're free to have your own private view about what the standards should be, of course. Formerip (talk) 23:32, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Only one editor actually commented on the article quality. All too often people jump on the "support" bandwagon without assessing article quality.  Paxman is a perfect example.  Thankfully it is now in a good state and that's why it was posted.  The Rambling Man (talk) 06:00, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * No, three editors supported with a positive comment on the article quality, one supported and suggested minor fixes and four supported without mentioning article quality. One editor went against the grain, which they were entitled to do, but they ought to graciously recognise a consensus when they see one. Formerip (talk) 09:28, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * So in other words more editors were concerned over the quality of the article than were not. Hey, if you want to ignore the instructions and support items which don't comply with BLP or make completely unreferenced claims, that's your call.  I certainly won't be lowering my standards to meet yours.  The Rambling Man (talk) 09:30, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's right. Up is down and you're never wrong. Formerip (talk) 09:39, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I just reiterated that two people out of the three who actually bothered about the article quality had concerns, and just reiterated that I wouldn't lower my standards to match yours. I didn't say up was down, nor did I say I was never wrong.  The Rambling Man (talk) 09:44, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * You were reiterating pure nonsense. Three editors felt the article quality was sufficient. One editor indicated very minor concerns (a suggestion for two additional references, relating to nothing that appeared questionable, in an article that, at that time, already had 23, plus a trivial-to-fix formatting issue - this is not the sky falling in). Then there was the other editor I mentioned above, plus four editors who supported without mentioning article quality, whose votes don't count for nothing. Formerip (talk) 10:18, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * You do realise that it's not the sheer number of references that's important, don't you? Perhaps that's the real problem.  The Rambling Man (talk) 11:05, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I think the sheer number of references is highly relevant when considering how well-referenced an article is but, of couse, not the only consideration to be made. That's not the main issue here, though.
 * Article quality is a relatively subjective question on which editors can take contrasting views without any of those views being unreasonable or wrong. At the end of the day, consensus wins and we move on. There's nothing about your opinion that makes it inherently more valuable than everyone else's put together. Please do continue to highlight what you feel may be shortcomings to an article in any given discussion, being as specific as you can, because that is a useful and constructive thing to do. (Unnecessary personal comment removed. BencherliteTalk 11:42, 28 January 2015 (UTC)) The end. Formerip (talk) 11:33, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree that the phrase "be B-class and/or" is inconsistent with how ITN currently works. I also agree that an article does not need to be B-class to be posted to RD, as long as it is complete and reasonably well-written. That phrase should be removed from the instructions. Mamyles (talk) 22:00, 27 January 2015 (UTC)


 * I also agree it makes sense to remove that phrase. 331dot (talk) 22:04, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, seems like a good idea to me. GoldenRing (talk) 00:30, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Posting of the Asian Cup
I'm not exactly a regular at ITN, but I was under the impression that, ITN/R or not, all potential ITN items have to gain consensus to ITN/C before being posted. Unless I'm blind, 2015 AFC Asian Cup Final doesn't seem to have been taken to ITN/C at all before it was posted (although I think it's been posted in the past and I don't doubt that it would have gained consensus again). Have I missed something, or are admins now able to go ahead and post any ITN/R item they feel like?  IgnorantArmies  (talk)  11:18, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I realize it was a bold action, but the in-between seemed completely unnecessary, as the article has clearly been updated and it's been two days since the event. There may not be precedent for the action (or maybe there is; I don't really know), but that's likely just because the circumstances are rare -- a well-updated ITN/R article days after the event without a nomination is not common. Compare to the Super Bowl, where people tend to climb over themselves to be the first to nominate it well before the game even starts.


 * ITR/R says the following:


 * "However, the relevant article(s) will still have to be updated appropriately and proposed on the candidates page before being posted. Listing here is not an automatic guarantee that an item will be posted."


 * However, I read this not to mean, but rather . Except I did here. You'll see that the Sergio Mattarella nomination (an ITN/R event), which did receive a nomination, also didn't receive any real support (and actually received opposition) before being posted, because it was judged to be sufficiently updated. --  tariq abjotu  11:42, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

What should be linked?
I've just had a look at this entry: What surprises me here, is that of the four terms linked, all of which have specific articles for exactly those terms, namely American football, New England Patriots, Seattle Seahawks and Super Bowl, only the first of the links in ITN actually points to that article. The "hook" part of it, Super Bowl, I can understand - the news item is specifically about that news event (although perhaps including the XLIX would not be a bad idea anyway). But for the two teams, I think the link to the season article rather than the general team article is wrong. If I click a New England Patriots link I expect to get to New England Patriots. Many people visiting the page will want to know general information about the team, not so much about their 2014 season.
 * In American football, the New England Patriots defeat the Seattle Seahawks to win the Super Bowl

I realise there is a fairly long standing "convention" regarding this, and many news items follow this sort of format, hence why I'm raising it here. Personally I think it would be better to use less piped links here, but I'm interested to hear others' views. Thanks &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 15:03, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't believe there actually is long-standing convention regarding doing this; I don't think the Super Bowl item is normally posted in this manner, and I don't seem to recall similar championships being posted in this manner. We should be linking to what people expect to see, and one should expect that -- in this context -- Super Bowl would point someone to Super Bowl XLIX rather than Super Bowl. But I imagine most readers clicking on this team links are expecting to be pointed to information about the franchises themselves rather than information about the individual seasons. I've changed the links back. --  tariq abjotu  00:43, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks that makes sense.  &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 10:12, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Itn.svick.org is down
It takes me to a 404 error page. Is it working for anyone else? Everymorning  talk  19:19, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

ISIL is a non-event noun but is listed as "ongoing"
The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant is a noun. I don't see how the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant can be ongoing (as a noun), so I thought I would bring it up here. Dustin ( talk ) 18:29, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
 * So are Boko Haram and War in Ukraine. The stories are ongoing. Kevin McE (talk) 18:37, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
 * An event can be a noun, yes. I can clarify by saying the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant is not an event. Is that better? And the Main Page says "Ongoing", not "Ongoing stories". Boko Haram is an ongoing movement, the War in Ukraine is an ongoing war, but the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant is not an event. It is a non-event noun. Dustin  ( talk ) 19:01, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I think the "on-going" is entirely redundant; "in the news" already implies the subject is "in the news". May as well remove it and just post links to the articles, this way we can fit more articles in there too. Colipon+ (Talk) 18:13, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "Ongoing" is for events which might have a series of incremental notable stories that might not merit posting individually, but as a group merit attention. 331dot (talk) 18:46, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I think that is a good way to describe it, but I also see it as a place for topic areas which do not neatly fit into a 'groundbreaking' blurb that we are used to at ITN, but are nonetheless important; for example the recent measles outbreak, a link to "Measles" would be relevant, highly encyclopedic, and in the news. Colipon+ (Talk) 20:25, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

U.S. coverage at ITN
I've noticed that, for the past few weeks at least, there has been a distinct lack of coverage of US-related topics on the ITN ticker compared to years past, except for those events that are ITN/R. All I can say is: keep up the good work. --WaltCip (talk) 18:18, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * There's a distinct lack of coverage for the entire Western Hemisphere, as a matter of fact. – H T  D  03:14, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The beginning of the year is a slow period for ITN worthy events in general, and not just US related ones. I don't think there is any deliberate effort to exclude US related (or Western Hemisphere) events, which there shouldn't be for any country. We should be working to post more from other places and I think we have done better these last few weeks. I do agree that we have done a good job of posting events from other places and I hope that continues. Working against systemic bias doesn't mean it should be turned around. All potentially worthy events should be considered on their merits.  331dot (talk) 09:56, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

There is no story about Europe either. So what? Kevin McE (talk) 18:40, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
 * There are six ITN blurbs right now, and 4 are from ITNR. The other two involves a plane crash and the sale of a painting... – H T  D  15:32, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

The Rambling Man
The Rambling Man has repeatedly acted inappropriately at WP:ITN/C. His comments have violated WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA several times, and are rude in general. I have several examples, all of these events having occurred in the last couple of months:
 * 1) which went on until today, at In_the_news/Candidates, where TRM !voted "Oppose for the dead American ticker. Article has serious BLP issues.", a disrespectful comment calling ITN a "dead American ticker". An argument with Muboshgu and me follows. He posts more comments using the phrase "dead American ticker" Of course, this just another example of his rudeness, and not a WP:CIVIL or WP:NPA violation.
 * 2) Anyone that contributes to ITN knows that TRM likes to oppose noms. Looking at what's currently listed at ITN/C, his record is 10 opposes and 7 supports, mine is 3/3. He often opposes based on article quality, yet he got on to me when I opposed his nom because it was a stub.
 * 3) The incident that concerns me the most is this one, where Richard von Weizsäcker was nominated for RD (and was later posted), but the article was in terrible shape. Zwerg Nase improved the article and posted to ITN, alerting us about his edits. Then, TRM insulted his work with sarcasm, an argument with 331dot follows. TRM makes rude comments, then 331 replies with a good way to end an argument, I saw this and went to 331's tp to praise him for his comment, the argument continues there between me, 331, Zwerg, and TRM. This is the most important diff. In that diff you will see in the "Well said" section that I posted a diff of 331's comment with "*applause* *standing ovation*", and then TRM comments, insulting our nationality with "Or not. *applause* etc. No sarcasm had been deployed tonight, although perhaps being British I assume y'all aint gettin' it. *seated slow hand clap* *wait for help*". Later on in the argument, TRM says "Seems like you don't get it either [referring to me] (and if you think "well played" has negative connotation, there is little hope)...". Later on, the subject of discussion morphs into questioning of why TRM removed a comment by Sca, I will admit that my comment "And while we're here, would you like to explain why you removed Sca's comment?" sounded inappropriate, I'm not the best at wording things.
 * 4) An incident I recently found that I was not involved in is this: He insults Newyorkbrad because he posted an RD for "another dead American".
 * 5) Another rude comment

I must add that AFAIK, TRM has never apogized for any of this. The examples I've listed only go back to November 2014. I could go on and on listing his rude comments. Anyone can add to this list in a comment below. -- Amaryllis Gardener  talk 22:06, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Proposal
I propose that The Rambling Man be topic banned from editing In the news/Candidates because of his incivility.
 * Support as proposer. -- Amaryllis Gardener  talk 22:10, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Nice, thanks for letting me know about this discussion. I think you'll find ANI is the usual location to get be blocked or banned from aspects of Wikipedia. It would no doubt serve you and the others who continually advocate substandard articles nicely to see me banished. Pity is, the fewer there are of us who care about quality, the worse the main page becomes. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:18, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I will say that I searched "topic ban" before I posted this and that users have been topic banned through discussion on this page in the past. I had no intention of bringing this to the dark place filled with monsters. -- Amaryllis Gardener  talk 22:21, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Well you need to do that. And once again, thanks for having the courtesy not to tell me about this discussion. No less than I expected. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:23, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Fine, I'll take it there. And I pinged you, I didn't think I had to do any more notifying, as this isn't ANI. -- Amaryllis Gardener  talk 22:24, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Mayweather vs. Pacquiao
Is there any chance of this being posted? If there's zero chance do tell it know so other people could waste time and effort on this article and not me lol. – H T  D  23:39, 20 February 2015 (UTC)


 * I don't follow boxing, and I usually oppose boxing nominations, but this seems to be one of the few fights we should post. I think this would have an excellent chance, and I'd probably support. Most of the past discussions we've had about boxing usually pointed to this fight as something we would hypothetically post. Well, it's here. --Bongwarrior (talk) 05:09, 23 February 2015 (UTC)


 * I think it should be. Boxing is not represented ever at ITN, and as Bongwarrior mentioned every time it is brought up people say that if this fight happens then then it may be posted. This is a fight that has been "discussed" and "hyped about" for years so there's no doubt it will be a big news story. Andise1 (talk) 05:14, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * While I fear that Mayweather vs. Pacquiao will be an example of the hype outliving the actual event, it's a lot of hype, certainly a newsworthy amount of hype. It might even smash a PPV record or two.--WaltCip (talk) 14:10, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Current Event Posting Length and Style
What happened to the shortened form of reporting of current events? The main reason I open this page first thing every morning is to get a brief 1 sentence (15-25 words) overview of the top 8-10 events that are happening. If I want to know more there are the associated links and I can go into more depth. But I dont need a 110 word recapping of the Dayton 500 and other events.

Also as the country of the event can be one of the primary indicators of level of relevance to me (I follow Asia Pacific) I would also like to suggest the following format

Country : 10-12 words summary

For example Bangladesh: Death toll from the weekend ferry disaster rises to 70. (AP) Australia: Entertainer Rolf Harris is stripped of his Order of Australia honours following recent convictions in the United Kingdom for indecent assault. (ABC News Australia) Egypt: Political activist is sentenced to five years in jail for violating a rule against organising political protests without permission. (Al-Arabiyah)

Just a thought. (Hopefully these comments are in the right talk section. Do move them if I am placing them astray.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.98.124.240 (talk) 16:00, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I understand what you are suggesting, however, the current format is how it has always been done. For most blurbs, the country being referenced is included in the blurb (unless it's something that's fairly common knowledge such as the Academy Awards country). I personally prefer the current format versus the one you are suggesting, as it's more clear currently. Andise1 (talk) 20:32, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * ITN is not a news ticker and has never functioned as an "overview of the top 8-10 events that are happening", so you might have it confused with something else. Please see In the news for a description of the section's purpose.  —David Levy 02:53, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I believe the IP is referring to Portal:Current events rather than ITN. Stephen 03:13, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I just realized that when I noticed that the Daytona 500 isn't mentioned in ITN.
 * You appear to have posted to the wrong talk page, User:68.98.124.240. You want Portal talk:Current events.  —David Levy 03:16, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

In the news order bias
In scanning the "In The News" section, I noticed what I believe to be a new entry, regarding Nascar, posted below the already existing entry concerning the movie Birdman.

Might I recommend not publishing new entries to "In The News" below existing entries?

It makes it harder to scan for new news items, and shows a bias in the editors opinion on what is more newsworthy. (Movies versus Nascar, which in this case, I agree on, but that's beside the point.)

331dot suggested this might be a better place to put this, so I'm copying it here.164.58.21.70 (talk) 18:12, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
 * ITN items are posted in the order in which they happen, irrespective of nomination time or posting time. The Daytona 500 happened before the Oscars. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:25, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Indeed, items are listed reverse chronologically in the order they occurred (not posted or nominated). To clarify, there are however two situations where a strict chronological order might not be followed. They are 1) to put an item with a picture above other items which occurred on the same day, and 2) to avoid several blurbs in a row on a similar topic (e.g. elections or earthquakes), again only rearranging items within the same day. Neither of those situations applies in this case, so they go in time order. The Daytona 500 was the day before the Oscars. Modest Genius talk 22:51, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Just to confirm all of the above, the 2015 Daytona 500 was completed at about 4:40 PM EST, February 22. The 87th Academy Awards wrapped up just after midnight EST, early in the morning of February 24, about 32ish hours later, which is why the Academy Awards are listed as more recent than the Daytona 500.  Because they were.  -- Jayron 32 01:26, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Um, well, early in the morning of February 23, about 8ish hours later.
 * The key point is that the Oscars started and ended on Feb. 23 (UTC), while the Daytona 500 started and ended on Feb. 22 (UTC). That being said, even if they had occurred on the same day UTC, or even if the Daytona 500 had happened later the same day, the Oscars would still likely be placed at the top because of the photo (as Modest Genius mentioned as an exception). With them being on separate days, the Oscars clearly goes on top. --  tariq abjotu  07:06, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The key point is that the Oscars started and ended on Feb. 23 (UTC), while the Daytona 500 started and ended on Feb. 22 (UTC). That being said, even if they had occurred on the same day UTC, or even if the Daytona 500 had happened later the same day, the Oscars would still likely be placed at the top because of the photo (as Modest Genius mentioned as an exception). With them being on separate days, the Oscars clearly goes on top. --  tariq abjotu  07:06, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Geographic diversity
I'm pleased to see the current geographic diversity of ITN, which makes a refreshing change to items relating to Western Europe and North America. At the time of writing, the stories on the template are connected with the following locations: Iraq, Nigeria, none (space), Ethiopia, Lesotho and the Philippines. Good work everyone! Modest Genius talk 11:44, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
 * It's very nice to see two science/technology items up simultaneously, too. Espresso Addict (talk) 20:32, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Rotating images for the helicopter crash
I'm assuming set it up, but I wanted to say publicly what a great solution to the problem of picking an image. Excellent job, and congrats on working out how to do that. Well done. -- Jayron 32 14:38, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, David Levy had the idea when I asked him to cycle the images, and did all the careful work to make sure the "pictured" works. Definitely one to remember another time. Espresso Addict (talk) 18:58, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Venue?
Which is the correct venue to propose something that would affect articles for the duration that they appear on ITN? Mjroots (talk) 07:28, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, you could attempt to "bury" a blurb you don't like by nominating plenty of blurbs and hoping most of them stick... – H T  D  00:31, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Image swap
I swapped the ITN image, as the version that we had was somewhat distracting (in that the cropped letters and the microphone tip made it show three odd red spots). Should this cause any issues, any admin is welcome to revert this without any consultation. — xaosflux  Talk 03:22, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Should WP:ITND say "top of his or her field"?
Routinely, whenever someone is nominated for recent deaths at ITNC, debate ensues about whether this person was at the top of his or her field. Given that this phrase has been used for some time, I think the second criterion for WP:ITND should be changed to say that they were "regarded as being at or near the top of his or her field with respect to importance" or something like that. Everymorning  talk  23:03, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
 * How would your suggestion reduce debates? People would still debate what meets that criteria. 331dot (talk) 00:13, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm just proposing this change because since that seems to be the de facto meaning of that criterion, it should be made the official meaning as well. It doesn't have to reduce debates. Everymorning   talk  00:22, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Anyone has to be on top of some field. For example, Jon Bon Jovi is at the top of the field in singing Bon Jovi songs. – H T  D  00:30, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The phrase "so-and-so is not at the top of their field" is a code for "I don't personally like this person, and don't want to see their name highlighted on the main page" or "I don't like the country/ethnic group/nationality of this person, and for that reason I don't want to see them highlighted on the main page." Occasionally it means "I've never personally heard of them, and can't be bothered to look into their lives myself to see if they are really important in some way."  As a phrase for deciding the weight of an argument, it is next to meaningless.  -- Jayron 32 15:40, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Or it could just mean "this individual has won one trophy once ever and done nothing else objective ever, aren't there many tens of thousands of individuals around the world who match that achievement?", as evidenced by the rush to slam second-tier basketball coaches into RD. Who knows what the phrase means to each individual who uses it?  Certainly none of us, so while the speculation is amusing and indicative of a victim attitude, it's nothing more than that.  The Rambling Man (talk) 16:48, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Debate isn't necessarily bad. Whether to post or not is always subjective, and a discussion to establish consensus is healthy. I don't think that there is any one rule that will eliminate subjectivity in RD. Mamyles (talk) 18:02, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Overemphasis on helicopter crash
Why has the helicopter crash killing 10 people been in "In the News" for many days now? It seems like a minor item. After all, thousands of people die in transportation accidents every day. Many bus accidents (e.g.) kill more than 10 people at a time. Are the victims all that notable? --Macrakis (talk) 14:51, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Old events drop off as new ones are posted to replace them; there hasn't been any new approved nominations to push the old ones off. I invite you to participate at WP:ITNC in order to work towards a better turnaround. 331dot (talk) 14:58, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify - the current process does not allow for less notable events to be removed, or even be demoted down the list, does it? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:08, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Nope, the system runs chronologically. Oldest item is removed when newest item is added.  The last item may drop off and come back from time to time for "main page balance" (to ensure the text in the left and right column is about the same length), but otherwise there is no grand plan to "feature" an item for a longer time based on any system of merits.  Once there is consensus (as determined by anyone who cares to show up and comment, it isn't a closed club, and literally any human with access to the internet and cares what appears at ITN can be heard), it gets posted and then just gets pushed down the list by newer items.  -- Jayron 32 15:37, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
 * This is not how most internet news sources work, is it. But then this is an encyclopedia, not a news source, isn't it. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:41, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
 * If there are several oldest items of the same date, all added at broadly the same time, I think the procedures would allow the updating admin to select one other than the one at the bottom to remove, eg for reasons of relative importance or balance of topics, but I don't know whether anyone actually ever does this? Espresso Addict (talk) 05:13, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I never do, I just add a new one and take off the bottom-most. -- Jayron 32 15:11, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Suggestion: Drop copy of ITN Nomination template in edit header of ITN/C
Presently, the edit header provides a link to the ITN Nomination template page; I would suggest that maybe including the raw text of the base example of the template's doc pages so that one can simply copy-paste from the edit header to the edit box would make things just a notch simplier. (I always open in a new tab to grab it, we're not talking like it is impossible to get this, just makes life a little simpler). --M ASEM (t) 13:56, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Good idea. I also have to open the template in a new tab every time as well. This would be easier. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:08, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Agree. I don't think it would take much effort to update the edit notice, just need an admin to do it. -- Calidum  15:09, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not opposed to this. Any admin or template editor can change the editnotice via this page. Mamyles (talk) 15:24, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I can do that (as admin) but wanted to check to make sure this wasn't a bad idea. --M ASEM (t) 18:18, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Makes sense. -- Calidum  15:48, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Thirded, would encourage participation methinks. -  Floydian  τ <sub style="color:#3AAA3A;">¢  15:41, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, go ahead. --Tone 15:53, 21 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I've added it, please let me know if you have any problems with it (it seems find on my testing of it). --M ASEM (t) 20:33, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Template update request for Ongoing and RD
I have posted a request at T:ITN_candidate to update the template so that Blurb is optional for Ongoing and Recent Death (RD) nominations. The proposed update would also include text to indicate that the nominator is requesting the item for Ongoing or RD. Please feel free to discuss this request at the template talk page (& implement the change, if so inclined). An example of where this feature could be used is. Mamyles (talk) 20:05, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
 * This template change has been implemented, so there is now a 'yes/no' indicator for Ongoing nominations. The syntax change has also been made in the ITN/C editnotice. Mamyles (talk) 14:19, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Huge ITN candidates edit notice
Am I the only one who finds the new ITN candidates editnotice (added by Masem) annoying? Was that discussed somewhere? It is so large it occupies the whole window when I open the edit screen. Before we just had a link to ITN candidate which I thought was fine (though admittedly I only rarely add new nominations). How about wrapping it in a collapsed box or something to make less overwhelming when all one wants to do is comment on nominations? Dragons flight (talk) 20:59, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
 * See three sections above. I asked about adding it to make it simplier to add. --M ASEM (t) 21:01, 28 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Okay, thanks for that. I somehow missed that thread earlier.  Still, I think it occupies so much space that it is a bad trade off when comparing the slightly easier editing for new nominations vs. somewhat more annoying editing for existing nominations.  I would support either going back to the prior version or creating a version that hid the template inside a collapsed box.  Dragons flight (talk) 21:10, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I have added a collapsed frame for the template example code. It still will appear momentarily on page load but will auto collapse. --M ASEM  (t) 00:48, 29 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks. That's much better as far as I am concerned.  Dragons flight (talk) 20:11, 1 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I quite like it because it helps with nominating candidates, which is what the page is all about. I guess, if possible, it could be collapsed with a note to say "if you want to nominate something, uncollapse this!", but otherwise it's fine.  The Rambling Man (talk) 21:03, 28 March 2015 (UTC)