Wikipedia talk:Iranian Wikipedians' notice board/Archive 1

Iranian Wikipedians' notice board
New & Improved. Please help with the portal. --Jpbrenna 9 July 2005 08:21 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your efforts. Unfortunately, the new page design is just "new" but I wouldn't call it "improved" because the new design has a "locked" look and feel whereas the old design is the simple, open and standard look and feel, which would encourage users to participate in it more. The idea of pages similar to this one is usefulness not page design artistry.
 * Sorry, I thought a to-do list would help. Actually, it looks like no one is participating under either format, which is sad. --Jpbrenna 02:02, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Newcomers
If there are any newcomers that intend to edit and make contribs on a regular basis, please let me know, leave me a message, or email me. We have a BIG need and deficiency in Iranian editors on WP. I cant edit everything all by myself. We need help.--Zereshk 22:37, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Attention all Iranian related editors
If there are any newcomers that intend to edit and make contribs on a regular basis, please let me know, leve me a message, or email me. We have a BIG need and deficiency in Iranian editors on WP. I cant edit everything all by myself. We need help.--Zereshk 22:35, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Iran on IDRIVE
I'm considering putting Iran on the Article Improvement Drive to help get it featured in a more timely fashion--plus it'll be improved by editors who may not usually be around the Iran corner of Wikipedia. Soliciting feedback… --Wikiacc ¶ 22:40, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Military attacks on Iran and claimed justifications
i hope i'm not intruding here - i admit that trying to prevent an attack on Iran would be advocacy and that my POV is that i do not want Iran to be bombed nor invaded. However, distributing NPOV information in the wikipedia, which might lead to peaceful resolution of threats and perceived threats, is IMHO consistent with wikipedia goals. After all, Ayatollah Jimbo said that the goal should be that we all love each other - how can we love each other if we know that by failing to distribute information, some of our governments are about to mass murder people in Iran? (i don't have any connections with Iran, except a few friends there, and i lived in Pune, India, for two years - my motivation is simply ordinary human ethics). Boud 16:10, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Reading "Lolita" in Tehran
is a book that has an article, Reading Lolita in Tehran, which at any time is either in one phase or the other of a long-running (but slow, thus no "3RR") revert war. I am unhappy with both sides: neither makes a serious effort to provide sources for his/her claims, and neither seems inclined to discuss (let alone negotiate) with the other. I wrote about this at the pump (please click!), but it now occurs to me that there could be a greater number of knowledgable (and Persian-reading) people here. Thank you for your attention to this. -- Hoary 11:26, 8 March 2006 (UTC) (reworded 14:53, 8 March 2006 (UTC))

Afghanistan & Tajikistan
This notice board should also include toppics regarding Afghanistan and Tajikistan, Tajiks, Pashtuns, etc ... all of those articles are sometimes attacked by "outsiders". I suggest to move this project to "Persian-speaking", like the "German-speakers notice board". Tajik 17:31, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh that's a good idea, but renaming the project to "Persian-speaking" would exclude the non-Persian speaking Iranians who may be interested to help and support the project. Regardless, you can post your Afghanistan/Tajikistan related notices on the project's main page for now, you can even add a separate section for Afghanistan and Tajikistan updates. --ManiF 23:07, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Tajik, I agree with you. But you can see what a mess we run into everytime we use the word Persian on Wikipedia. The ethnic secessionists take it as an insult.--Zereshk 19:03, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I did not say "Persian" but "Persian-speaking". I believe that Tajikistanis, Afghanistanis and other Persian-speakers who are not citizens of Iran have more problems with the title "Iranian" than with "Persian-speaking". I consider "Persian-speaking" a more neutral title. Tajik 20:03, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I hear you. Unfortunately, the western dominated users of Wikipedia see it exactly as the opposite. Stroll around on WP, and youll see a whole posse of users trying to separate the Kurds and the Azeris and every other ethnic group from Iran just by emphasizing on the ethnic usage of the word Persian. (e.g. claiming Persian only applies to fars province).--Zereshk 06:41, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Hamadan and ethnic population of Iran
Hi different (very small) separatist groups are making different claims on Hamadan (see the wikipedia entery). The below source I think is very accurate description. http://www.hamedanpolitic.ir/Group.aspx

--Ali doostzadeh 19:23, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Al-Khawarizmi
I have written a complete essay here on Khawarazmi's Iranian origin:  http://www.azargoshnasp.net/wikipedia/khawarazmi.htm I am not sure how anyone can counter it. As per the user Zora, I notice her in every anti-Iranian discussion. Also one or two pan-Kurdists on a basis of complete anti-Iranian grudge are trying to hide Khawarazmi's Iranian origin. They are very naive and stupid because Kurds are also Iranian and part of the Iranian world, and Khawarazmi's Iranianness also means that Kurds have their share in the heritage of this Iranian. In fact Rumi, Nizami, Avicenna, Shahnameh, Kaveh, Zoroster and etc. are part of the heritage of all Iranians (Kurds included).

Updates...

Zidan mentioned an article about Khawarazmi by Prof. Len Berggren: http://genealogy.math.ndsu.nodak.edu/html/id.phtml?id=15655

I emailed Professor Len Berggren last week and he finally responded. His email address is: berggren@sfu.ca and this is his webpage: http://www.math.sfu.ca/~berggren/main.html

Here is his email after I enquired about this mistake.

Dear Ali Doostzadeh,

Thank you for your letter. You are, of course, right and I make the same point myself in a book I published (with Springer-Verlag) in 1986, titled Episodes in the Mathematics of Medieval Islam. I write, on p. 6, speaking of the early period of Islamic science, that "the Central Asian scholar Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi came from the old and high civilization that had grown up in the region of Khwarizm . . . near the delta of the Amu Dar'ya (Oxus) River on the Aral Sea." (This book has been translated into Farsi, by the way, and is available in Iran.) The article you wrote to me was one I wrote at a time when I was not as aware of the wide ethnic differences within medieval Islam as I was when I came to write my book. Anyway, happy "Nau Rooz" and I wish you success in your researches. I was very impressed with the sources you have gathered and I look forward, when I have finished teaching this term, to having the leisure to read them carefully. Yours sincerely, Len Berggren

I can forward this email to anyone that is interested (alidoostzadeh@yahoo.com) or they may contact the Professor himself to verify it, if they wish. So Professor Len Berggren has totally recounted his mistake since at least 1986.

--Ali doostzadeh 19:23, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Abu Rayhan Biruni
Some pan-turkists might try to claim Abu-Rayhan Biruni, but this can easily be refuted. Biruni was a Iranian Khawrezmian and spoke no turkic. In his list of turkic month names (which are merely ordinals), he adds "I don't know what tehy mean and I don't knwo the (exact) order". his ordering in fact has errors. In his famous "chronology of ancient nations" he has the order of the old-turkic month names, which are just ordinals (readily recognizable in any variety) jumbled and adds a note that 'he doesn't know the correct order and doesn't know the origin of the names'. Beside he alrady has mentioned that the people of Khawarazm are a branch of Persians.

--Ali doostzadeh 19:23, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Ibn Nadeem
I have changed the "Arab" to "Muslim" on the article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Nadim Although I believe that most likely was Iranian, the Iranica article mentions that his ethnicity is uncertain.

--Ali doostzadeh 19:23, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

RFC
Requests for comment/Aucaman is still under review, but an advocate of User:Aucaman had moved the many users' comments and views from the main page to discussion claiming that the comments were all made in response to Zora and hence belonged in discussion. I have restored some of the comments weren't in response to Zora, but rather the case. Please make sure that your comments and views are posted under their own section if you'd like to express your views there. --ManiF 16:43, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Sayed Mohammad Khatami
Could someone write a short biography on Sayed Mohammad Khatami? Cheers, —Ruud 01:53, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Geber
See my comments on the discussion page of Geber. His ethnicity is unclear and some put Al-Tusi and some Al-Kufi and some Al-Tartusi (he could even possibly be Greek/Roman). I have not seen anything from the pan-arabist claim that he was from Al-Azdi tribe. I think factually what we need to put is of Shia Muslim (perhaps of Arab or Persian or Greek or Sabian origin). --Ali doostzadeh 22:24, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Edits
I have been editing all the articles that refer to Persian scientists as "Muslim" scientists. The articles must include these peoples ethnic origin. Simply refering to them as "Muslim" is misleading. I got 1 message from user, "svest" telling me I will be blocked from editing. I will continue to add the correct information and facts to help fight their lies and propoganda. The articles have to include the Iranian origins of these men. I will file a complaint with Wikipedia against these specific members if they continue their anti-Iranian campaign.

Also, pan-turanists continue changing the article regarding the Safavids. They are trying to deny the Safavids Iranian origin and obvious Persian culture. We should keep making the appropriate edits in response.

The article regarding the Persian Gulf should not include any other name for the region besides the "Persian Gulf". The article states that, "Since the 1960s, Persian Gulf Arabs and their states have sometimes referred to the water body as the Arabian Gulf (which is in fact the ancient name of the Red Sea) but this is not commonly used in English and is not acknowledged by organizations such as the United Nations. See Persian Gulf naming dispute."

This section should be removed. The opinions of a few Arab nationalists should not be apart of this article. It is irrelevent what they call the Persian Gulf.Dariush4444 22:46, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

User; Ahwaz is spreading anti-Persian propoganda on the Arabs of Khuzestan article. I posted official CIA statistics to prove that his claims are false, but of course he changed the subject and started rambling on about his POV. Dariush4444 18:15, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Cunado19 changing Persian spellings to Arabic
He has been going through Iranian articles and changing the correct Persian transliterations of words to the Arabic transliteration. Examples: Mohammad -> Muhammad, Naser -> Nasir. He has also been moving articles based on the new Arabic transliterations he has introduced. We have to look up all his "contributions" (Special:Contributions/Cunado19) and undo them. --Houshyar 18:44, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Please see the conversation between Cunado19 and me here. --Houshyar 18:53, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

User: 65.34.171.49
Is making pan-Turkist attacks on Azeri articles. 69.196.139.250 20:42, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

User:Diyako is trying to make an alternative ficticious definition of Newroz
User:Diyako has created an article on a Turkic-Nowruz without mention of its Iranian history and roots. Soon we will here Nowruz has nothing to do with Iran too. His article is Nevruz. This should be merged or edited properly. He has gone on the Turkish discussions to promote it.

Here is what user:Diyako has written;

Nevruz is the spring festival among Turkic-speaking nations, from Turkey to Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan etc. It is very similar to the Iranian festival of Norouz.

According to Turkish legends Nevruz dates back to era of Gökturks.

69.196.139.250 20:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Rumi
Here is an article on Rumi's ethnicity I wrote a while back. I might periodically add more here. The reason I put it here is because if there is future edits, I can at least save it here.

We must analyze this issue from all the available sources. Here are reasons why Rumi was clearly Persian.

a) A good proof towards this are the verses of Sultan Valad. Sultan Valad, who is the son of Rumi claims he knows Arabic and Persian, but clearly says that he does not know Turkish and Greek well.

گذر از گفت ترکي و رومي چون از آن اصطلاح محرومي ليک از پارسي گوي و از تازي چونکه در هر دو خوش همي تازي

Also 99% of the work of Sultan Valad is in Persian, but he does have a few Arabic (7), Turkish and Greek poems (Lewis). In one of the Turkish ones he says the same thing about Knowing Persian and Turkish:

تورکچه اگر بيليديم بي سوزي بين ايليه ديم تات جه اگر ديله سوز گويم اسرار اولي

Which translates: If I knew Turkish, I would bring one word to a 1000 levels. But When you listen to Persian, the hidden secrets I tell wonderfully. تورکچه اگر بيليديم (If I knew Turkish) shows that Sultan Valad was not acquainted with this language.

b) Also there are some more points to consider. There are some harsh comments about Turks in the Manaqib of Aflaki. For example this one is in the praise of Greeks and belittlement of Turks, from the book of Aflaki:

''There is a well known story that the sheikh Salah al-Din one day hired some Turkmen workmen to build the walls of his garden. "Effendi Salah al-Din", said the master (Rumi), "you must hire Greek workmen for this construction. It is for the work of demolition that Turkish workmen must be hired. For the construction of the world is special to the Greeks, and the demolition of this same world is reserved for the Turks.

When God created the universe, he first made the carefree infidels. He gave them a long life and considerable force in such a fashion...that in the manner of paid workmen they constructed the earthly world. They erected numerous cities and mountain fortresses...so that after centuries these constructions served as models to the men of recent times.

But divine predestination has disposed of affairs in such a way that little by little the constructions become ruins. He created the people of the Turks in order to demolish, without respect or pity, all the constructions which they see. They have done this and are still doing it. They shall continue to do it day in and day out until the Resurrection!" ---'' I am not sure how a person can be of Turkic ethnicity, but say such a thing!

c) There are some harsh comments about Oghuz Turks in the Mathnavi For example the Oghuz Turks are compared to Abu-Jahl.

آن ابوجهل از پيمبر معجزي خواست هم چون کينه ور ترک غزي (مثنوي)

آن غزان خونريز امدند بهر دهي يغما بر زدند (مثنوي)

Note the Oghuz turks are the main cultural-linguistic ancestors of modern Western Turks.

d) The مجالس السبعه Majale's As'saba or the seven seremons of Rumi are all in Persian. Which means that Rumi used Persian to preach the Friday sermon. This is significant since in every Islamic country, the preacher usually either preaches in his local tongue or in Arabic.

e) Rumi uses the word "Tang-Cheshm" (narrow eyes) for Turks. Genetically it has been proven that most of the Turkish speakers of Anatolia are not Turks, but former Greeks/Armenians who were Islamicized. But the Central Asiatic Turks who are of mongloid race, are the real Turks. Rumi mentions his eyes "Cheshmhaayeh Faraakh" (wide eyes, big eyes).

مولوي: ترك خنديدن گرفت از داستان چشم تنگش گشت بسته آن زمان

مولوي: دو چشم ترك خطا را چه ننگ از تنگي چه عار دارد سياح جهان از اين عوري

f) The best Biography of Rumi is written by Franklin Lewis, called Rumi Past and Present, East and West (March 1, 2000). The Iranian ethnic identity of Rumi is made clear in this book.

g) Balkh was a Persian speaking region before the mongols. For example see Zakhira-Khwrazmshahi for Persian phrases in the local Persian Balkhi tongue. Today it is mixed Tajik and Uzbek regions. But Uzbeks claim descent from Cheghniz Khan and were not in the area priorly.

در کتاب داراب نامه طرطوسي (بکوشش ذبيح الله صفا، تهران 2536، ج.1.، ص 163) آمده است: «و آن مرد لفظ دري داشت و همۀ جهان خواهند تا لفظ دري گويند، وليکن نتوانند مگر مردمان بلخ و هر که زبان اهل بلخ بياموزد.»

چنانکه عنصري مي فرمايد، بيت: چو با آدمي جفت گردد پري نگويد پري جز به لفظ دري»

h) The word Turk had a negative connotation in the Ottoman empire and people referred to themselves as Othmani and not Turk. The word Turk only became positive in Turkey after Ataturk. Prior to that the word "Turk" meant a wild person. It should be remembered that the Ottoman language, specially in poetry was more Persian/Arabic than pure Turkish.

i) Rumi as his name indicates means "Greek". But we know he wasn't Greek.  Sometimes Rumi compared himself to Roman, Turk, Hindus, Zangs (Blacks).  For example this verse:

گه تركم و گه هندو گه رومي گه زنگي// از نقش تو است اي جان اقرارم و آنكارم//

On the other hand in this verse he mentions he is not Turk:

اي تُرک ِ ماه‌چهره، چه گردد که صبح، تو آيي به حجره‌ي ِ من و گويي که: گـُل برو! تو ماه ِ ترکي و من گرچه ترک نيستم، دانم من اين قَدَر که به ترکي است، آب سُو آب ِ حيات ِ تو گر از اين بنده تيره شد، تُرکي مکن به کُشتَنَم‌ام اي تُرک ِ تُرک‌خو!

توجه کنيد: من گرچه ترک نيستم ولي دانم اين قدر که ترکي است آب سو.. پس ايشان ميگويند ترک نيستند.

In this verse he claims hindu: هندوي ساقي دل خويشم که بزم ساخت تا ترک غم نتازد کامروز طوي نيست

And Attar for example compared himself to Hindu or Turk or Zang.. as well:

کي توانم گفت هندو توام هندوي خاک سگ کوي تو ام

In Persian poetry usually Turk means a cruel, but yet beutifull lover. A Hindu means dark, like Dark mole or the night. Rumi means white and Zangi means Black. So these are symbolic words that should not be taken literally.

j) Finally Rumi lives by the Persian language and is alive by the Persian language/culture. And the Persian language is alive because of people like Rumi. Persian speakers of Afghanistan, Iran and Tajikistan are the ones that can read and understand Rumi. No amount of translation can do justice to his poems, because poetry is so closely linked with the language, that the translations will always be imperfect. It is true that in the Islamic empire of the east, people mixed and married. But the cultural language of this empire was Persian. Even the Seljuqs became Persianized and adopted Persian names like Kheykhosrow, Key-Kubaad and other Shahnama names. They mixed with other local Iranian dynasties and people. Rumi both ethnically and culturally was a Persian and mentions a lot about other Persian poets. For example he mentions Attar and Sanai profusely. Or he mentions the heroes of the Shahnama like Rustam and Esfandyar. So hypothetically speaking, even if Rumis parent were both Africans, he would be considered a Persian since what is at stake is cultural and heritage. Rumi could have had Arab, Persian, Turkic, Indian or whatver blood in him, but he was culturally Persian. For example how many citizens of Turkey or Arabia or Iran can claim that all of their ancestors were pure Turks, Arabs or Persian. Probably no one can. For example Ataturk himself was of Macedonian and Albanian background and was not Turkic. Yet he is considered a Turk because culturally he was Turk. So Rumi and his cultural background is also the key factor, even if we do not know Rumi's 50th ancestor and that is why Rumi belongs to the Perso-Islamic civilization and the Iranian world.

--Ali doostzadeh 00:21, 22 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the helpful information. Peosonally, I am interested in explicit sources. Could please provide some exact sources, for example which part of the "Mathnavi" you quoted? That would be really great. Tajik 01:34, 22 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The parts of Mathnavi I quoted are from a CD version I have. They are from the Foruzanfar and Homai editions.  As per the lines that Sultan valad explicitly states his lack of knowledge in Turkish, they are in his Diwan and I will post an article soon about this matter.  --Ali doostzadeh 05:35, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

WTF?
Do we really need such articles?--Zereshk 02:56, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Extremely inappropriate. I say it should be removed all together. If anywhere, this type of article should be reserved at urbandictionary.com. It’s sad how pervasive the use of derogatory Persian has penetrated youth culture here in the West. --QajarCoffee 22:12, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Take a look!
Please take a look at the following article: Sex in Iran. --Mitso Bel23:13, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Old entries and comments from front page
I reorganized the front page with a new formal format, so I'm moving all the old entries and comments here. --ManiF 05:29, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

March

 * See some good corrections by an important Professor on Al-Khwarizmi in the discussion page. --Ali doostzadeh 08:40, 22 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Please keep an eye on Al-Khwarizmi and Geber articles. The first one is clearly Persian and the second one right now is unknown.  Check the discussion pages for background information.  --Ali doostzadeh 17:46, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


 * User:Cunado19 has been going through Iranian articles and changing the correct Persian transliterations of words to the Arabic transliteration. Examples: Mohammad -> Muhammad, Naser -> Nasir. He has also been moving articles based on the new Arabic transliterations he has introduced. We have to look up all his "contributions" (Special:Contributions/Cunado19) and undo them. --Houshyar 18:44, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Please see the conversation between Cunado19 and me here. I have tried to reason with him, but he is being obstinate and believes he knows better although he does not speak any Persian --Houshyar 18:53, 17 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Alhazen & Geber, historic and scholarly sources in regards to these scientists' ethnicity or nationality would be appreciated. --ManiF 20:42, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Iran, under POV attack, User:Aucaman is "disputing" the origins of the name Iran. --ManiF 20:42, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Mughals, under POV attack Tajik 23:18, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Abu_Nasr_Mansur, please also keep an eye on this. -- Ali doostzadeh 19:14, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The ethnicity of many Persian scientists such as Alhazen, Al-Ghazali, Khwarizmi, Biruni, Geber, Avicenna, Farabi is systematically being challenged or changed by User:MB to "Arab". --ManiF 16:43, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Arabs of Khuzestan, claims are being made that there are 4 million Arabs in Khuzestan. --ManiF 16:43, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Safavids, the dynasty's Iranian origin and character is still being challenged. --ManiF 16:43, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Persian people's Mediation Case is still under review and discussion, please read the latest comments and feel free to add your own inputs. --ManiF 17:27, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Al-Khwarizmi, Khwarizmi's origin (Persian) is removed from the article again. Besides the usual Arab claims, User:Zora also claims that Khwarizmi may have been a Turk despite the fact that there weren't any Turkic tribes in Khwarizm back in 700-800. --ManiF 15:44, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Iranian nations, put up for deletion by User:Aucaman, Vote at Articles for deletion/Iranian nations --Kash 00:40, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Ruhollah Khomeini, under major POV attack by User:CltFn. SouthernComfort 03:02, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Azerbajini related articles such as Tabriz and Iranian Azerbaijan being fiddled with by user:65.34.171.49. and user:Grandmaster. Be on the watch for vandalism. 69.196.139.250 20:48, 19 March 2006 (UTC)