Wikipedia talk:Japan-related topics notice board/Jun07-Sep08

Minor issue
There is a minor issue with some Japanese history related articles, and I'm looking mainly for options/opinions. I've been going through Japanese history articles for about 10-11 months now, tagging articles that don't list sources, out of what I believe to be the necessity of properly citing history articles. Recently, User:Ooperhoofd has been adding (what I can best gather is) a french translation of another language of a 17th century Japanese history book into many articles (which in and of itself I don't have the standing to make judgement on), but the issue currently is that he removed the "needs sources" tag when he puts this book in as "further reading", which essentially results in calling this book a source for the article. It is my understanding that a source or reference for an article is a book or article or source that was used directly in the writing of the article. Because he is arbitrary in adding this "further reading", I suspect that many times, the book has no direct reference to the article in question. I have requested that he stop removing the "needs sources" tag from articles that he adds this book as further reading, but has no actual sources or references, but I believe possibly due to a language barrier, he isn't fully grasping the issue. Any comments or possible solutions to this situation? A more minor question I have is twofold - this being English wikipedia, should a french book be listed as "further reading" to so many articles which may or may not be directly related, and, due to the arbitrary nature of his additions, should this be allowed per wikipedia policy? I have no issues with this user, and apparently in the articles where he is actually contributing concrete information, he is doing quite a good job. Just looking to see what we can do to resolve this. Thanks! --Kuuzo 09:42, 12 August 2007 (UTC)


 * In most cases, we will never know the sources of nearly two million Wikipedia articles. The authors no longer participate in Wikipedia, or they have forgotten where they read something, or they cannot access the book or library any more, or they based their writing on an ephemeral source such as a conversation or a Web site that has disappeared. Short of throwing out the article and starting from a blank edit box (citing sources for the new information we write), the closest we can come is to cite references that include facts stated in the article. So, in my opinion, we can expect references but we should not expect sources.


 * What are the advantages of asking third-party editors to provide the sources, as distinct from supporting references, for articles? In which circumstances are sources crucially more important than references?


 * Fg2 10:10, 12 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I completely agree - the main reason I tag the articles is so that one of the thousands of users with a book that directly applies to the article will cite it, as well as a tag to warn students doing research that it is unverified (which I mention below). But that doesn't address the issue of adding an unrelated "recommended reading" and calling it a source without actually adding to the text (point being, it probably has nothing directly pertinent to the text). The purpose of a source should be so you can verify what is written. If one adds a source to an article that can be used to verify what is written, that is perfect and highly reccommended. But I don't think adding a book which probably doesn't have any pertinent info qualifies (particularly when it is simply "further reading") To quote LordAmeth's post on the user's talk page (which I think is a balanced and well thought out reply)


 * Also, I think it is important to note the difference between citations and suggesting something as Further Reading. Citations are a wonderful thing, no matter what language the source is in. I am not at all opposed to the use of this book as a cited source, provided that such errors are watched out for, etc. But there is a key difference between citing something as a source and suggesting it as Further Reading. Foreign language books should not be suggested for further reading, and I don't think things should be suggested unless they are directly pertinent to the topic at hand. Even from what little I know about this book I can hazard a guess that there is not a significant percentage of the book devoted exclusively to Kujo Yoritsune or to Empress Gemmei, and therefore it should not be suggested as further reading on those subjects. Please, Ooperhoofd, if you have a specific fact or point to cite, go ahead and cite it, but do not suggest this text - which is in a foreign language, and is far too old to be a reliable source - as if it were the definitive textbook on a half dozen scattered topics. LordAmeth 17:38, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Anyway, it looks like various users have gone back and forth about this source on his user page over the past month or so, with nothing really definitive decided. Also, history articles, unlike most of the other 2 million articles, are always verifiable, and if they aren't, wikipedia seems to frown on that. But my question/comment is mainly on using a "further reading" which may not have anything to do with the article, as a "source" that people are expected to read to verify the article it is listed in. I personally consider the "needs sources" tag as a warning for students who use the internet for research that the article in question is currently unverified - particularly since students tend to be fast and loose with citations. I'm trying to save some headaches down the road, including the propagation of incorrect information. --Kuuzo 10:15, 12 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Regarding Further Reading, agreed!


 * I suspect the book Ooperhoofd cites (Titsingh) is a chronology, listing enormous numbers of events. It probably has something pertinent to vast categories of articles, including historical people (emperors, military leaders, religious figures), places where events occurred, dates, battles, successions, lineages, establishments, disasters, the list goes on. I've seen many articles in which Ooperhoofd cites it, and it appears to have a relevant factoid. If it doesn't have anything relevant to an article, let's discourage listing of it. This remark may be especially pertinent when Titsingh is cited in a Further Reading section. Moreover, reliable modern sources are preferable. Titsingh is not a primary source. It has little advantage, and great disadvantage, in comparison to present-day scholarship.


 * Except in articles where Ooperhoofd (or someone else) adds substantial material from Titsingh, the book is not a source, and should not be listed as a source. Again, though, I'm not sure what the point is in asking for sources; when we encounter an article that doesn't list sources or references, I believe we should retroactively ask for references instead of retroactively asking for sources. Also, note that Wikipedia's requirement is that All material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a source. To become a Featured Article, an entry needs citations for facts likely to be challenged; for articles that are lower in rank (Good, A, B, Start, or Stub), citations are useful and valuable but progressively less required, and citations for widely accepted facts are not even necessary in featured articles.


 * The same article also has the answer to your question about French sources: Because this is the English Wikipedia, English-language sources should be given whenever possible, and should always be used in preference to other language sources of equal calibre. However, do give references in other languages where appropriate. If quoting from a different language source, an English translation should be given with the original-language quote beside it. Verifiability has similar statements. There must be many modern English scholarly works available to establish the credibility of Wikipedia articles. I don't think we need to rely on Titsingh. But Wikipedia is a volunteer organization, and when someone answers our call for references by citing Titsingh, maybe that's better than nothing. It may be a long time before another volunteer comes along with a better source.


 * Regarding a direction for future tagging of articles, I'd suggest that in many articles identifying questionable statements is more fruitful than requesting sources. For specific templates, Verifiability suggests using the fact template on a sentence. For articles, Not verified or Unreferenced is their suggestion.


 * Fg2 11:25, 12 August 2007 (UTC)


 * For what it's worth, I agree with all that's been said. I just hope we can somehow convince Ooperhoofd to understand and cooperate. LordAmeth 00:47, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Again, though, I'm not sure what the point is in asking for sources; when we encounter an article that doesn't list sources or references, I believe we should retroactively ask for references instead of retroactively asking for sources. - I see the point here - I was looking at sources/references as the same thing - the "place" the information came from and/or can be verified. --Kuuzo 05:41, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Think again
Two of Fg2's mild sentences need to be reiterated for emphasis:
 * Wikipedia is a volunteer organization, and when someone answers our call for references by citing Titsingh's Nihon Ōdai Ichiran, maybe that's better than nothing. It may be a long time before another volunteer comes along with a better source.

Fg2 has succinctly reached the core of what matters most. I have a great deal more to say, but this may be one of those times in which less is more. Ooperhoofd 19:27, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree IF it was used as a source in the writing of the article, or if substantial information in the article can be confirmed by looking at this french source. Whether that is actually the case in even a fraction of the articles is seriously questionable, and invalidates the above quote, however it appears that he is now taking what LordAmeth and I have said to heart, and has begun to add information directly from that book, and so I laud him for that. It may be a moot point, but it isn't clear to me what Ooperhoofd is trying to accomplish by inundating articles with this inarguably outdated source (and the outdated nature of said source can't be overstated). But I've done what I can in tagging unsourced articles. If everyone is comfortable with what he is doing, he can feel free to continue. In "good faith" I must point out that I hope he isn't putting this source into every article simply so he can to promote his future translation and/or publication of this book in english via wikipedia mass-marketing.  --Kuuzo 05:37, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Please, AGF. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 07:00, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I've quickly read much of what's above and agree with a lot of it. I have to say, though, that I'm generally unimpressed by the addition of "references" to an article as a whole. There are articles where this is appropriate, but a wide array of specific assertions should be backed by specific sources, tedious though these are to add, to maintain (as the later addition of little phrases here and there can lead footnotes to appear to "source" stuff other than what they were originally added to source), and sometimes even to read around. Aside from the rare case of trolling or tantrum, a demand for sources should be respected and eventually met by the addition of sources; until they're added, the demand shouldn't be removed, however irritating it may appear. &para; Yes, it seems very strange to provide an early nineteenth century work as a reference; and the article Nihon Ōdai Ichiran has a certain odd crystalballery about it. -- Hoary 07:32, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * If I were writing something as Kuuzo suggests, then edits in Wikipedia stubs and start-level articles would serve no purpose. However, the continuing interest in this subject does encourage me to recommend further reading:
 * Timon Screech. Secret Memoirs of the Shoguns: Isaac Titsingh, 1779-1824. London:  RoutledgeCurzon, 2006.
 * ISBN 0-7007-1720-X
 * Perhaps it might be of some passing interest that the author is a faculty-member of the University of London’s School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS). --Ooperhoofd 21:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Four articles
These articles need renaming... 偏印 (Four Pillars of Destiny), 傷官 (Four Pillars of Destiny), 偏財 (Four Pillars of Destiny), 印綬 (Four Pillars of Destiny). Pojanji 01:06, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Style changed too much ?
User:Nihonjoe-san, you changed over all style too much. Is it your intended one ? --125.197.178.164 10:26, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Hello, which style did Nihonjoe-san change? Fg2 10:42, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi, "(cur) (last) 20:54, 16 September 2007 Nihonjoe" & "(cur) (last)  15:57, 5 May 2007 Komusou", Style of "project page", 2007 May version and changed 2007 Sept. these two version are too much difference. Why Spet., version changed to have big and vertically long space on left side.--125.197.178.164 09:11, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Kempeitai
There are some serious issues with the entire "Kempeitai" article, it is rather long, makes a whole bushel of controversial conclusions, and appears to be with little background sourcing, does anyone have any expertise on this issue. I don't myself but came to the article to find outRastov (talk) 07:31, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Japanese film editors wanted
WikiProject Films has solicited interest in creating a Japanese cinema task force. We'd like to cordially welcome all regular editors of these articles to voice their interest in starting this task force so as to see if there is sufficient support. Many thanks! Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 02:20, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Japanese films task force
Just thought that the community would like to know that WikiProject Films has a established a Japanese cinema task force. Interested editors are encouraged to join onboard! Thanks, Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 07:44, 27 June 2008 (UTC)