Wikipedia talk:Keep It Simple/Archive 1

August 27
Initial impressions: I like the concept very much. However, I've done a little rewording to the project page for clarity, grammar/punctuation, etc., and also replaced "all boxes" with "most major boxes", as there are just so many boxes out there that are irrelevant, if someone is a minimalist, I doubt they'd have use for many of the boxes available. "Major" boxes, however, should be the focus initially, and I'm not sure it would really be possible to do "all" boxes, so best to not claim we're trying.

I'm not really personally thrilled with the look/feel/layout of the table portion. The boxes aren't aligned to the left side, aren't aligned to the bottom, and they really would perhaps look better inside an invisible table, instead of one with visible borders. Of course, that's another individual thing, so perhaps giving both options would be a good idea. I'll work something up tomorrow with an invisible nested table, and see how that looks.

I really like this idea, I hope nobody confuses it for WP:KISS, thank you for inviting me to participate in the initial growth! Ariel ♥ Gold 23:05, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Template fun
I'm a little concerned about the label templates. To make them easier to create and maintain I'm working on a label template at User:Jakew/sandboxtpl2; there's an example usage at User:Jakew/sandbox2. Once I've figured out how to pass-thru the nocat parameter properly, I'll move these over to the appropriate namespace.

I'm also wondering about formatting templates for the container. How about: {{label 1} {{label 2} Jakew 10:18, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Could you pretty please explain what you're concerned about? I'm not clear with the purpose of your sandbox, or what the current problems may be. I'm not extremely familiar with template issues, so feel free to talk to me like the "Template for Dummies" book would. [[Image:Face-grin.svg|25px]] Ariel ♥ Gold 10:42, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I should have put that more clearly. I'm concerned about two issues:
 * Making new labels easy to create. I'd prefer to simplify as much as possible. Compare the complexity of the following:
 * WP:COUNCIL


 * Making labels easy to maintain. Suppose that we want to change the colour scheme or fix a layout problem. This is much easier to do if the appearance is managed in one location, rather than code being duplicated in dozens of different labels. Jakew 10:53, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Making labels easy to maintain. Suppose that we want to change the colour scheme or fix a layout problem. This is much easier to do if the appearance is managed in one location, rather than code being duplicated in dozens of different labels. Jakew 10:53, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Ugh. I'm not grasping what you're saying I guess, I don't understand what the issue is, I just copied and pasted the code into the labels I made, it was really fast and easy, and then just changed the name and category. I honestly don't understand what the stuff in your sandbox is doing, or what the other stuff does. I'm sorry Ariel ♥  Gold 11:33, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok, let's take User label en as an example. We could replace the contents of this with the following:
 * Which will produce exactly the same thing:
 * The advantage is that the appearance of labels is very easy to change. For example, if we need to fix a layout problem with them, we don't have to change every single label. We can fix them all by changing a single template. Jakew 12:06, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hrmm, well that sounds good, would that go in the template space, or stay in your userspace? What is the "nocat=" part for, and what does it do? Ariel ♥ Gold 12:08, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I plan to move it into the template space as soon as it works properly.
 * The nocat part is the bit I'm struggling with. It's there to allow us to prevent the category from being added to inappropriate pages, such as WikiProject Keep It Simple. If present, the nocat parameter to the label needs to be passed through to the template it uses, which is why the syntax is a little messy. I'm working on it... Jakew 12:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The nocat part is the bit I'm struggling with. It's there to allow us to prevent the category from being added to inappropriate pages, such as WikiProject Keep It Simple. If present, the nocat parameter to the label needs to be passed through to the template it uses, which is why the syntax is a little messy. I'm working on it... Jakew 12:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Hee hee, that's over my head. Copying and tweaking I can do, creating from scratch, not so much. I'll just look forward to its completion, and happily use it if it makes creating boxes easier! Thanks so much for doing that, Jake! Ariel ♥ Gold 12:40, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. To be honest I'm learning as I go. :-) Jakew 13:45, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Right, I think I've fixed the problem. To do so, I've eliminated to 'nocat' parameter. Instead, the template just detects the namespace of the page, and adds the category if in the User: namespace. The nice thing is that this makes creating and using labels even simpler. A label now looks like this:



The only downside is that there's slightly less control: the category is always present if the label is used on a page in the User: namespace, and never if used anywhere else. Does anyone see this as a problem? Jakew 13:45, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * In some situations it would be a problem, but for the purposes of these labels, I don't see how it would be, except that it will add that category to each of the label template's pages... so maybe. Ariel ♥ Gold 14:01, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Label templates should be in the Template: namespace, so the category won't be added. Jakew 14:05, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, they aren't? Okay then I can't see any issues, but it might be wise to ask on some policy page (not sure which one, perhaps Village Pump?) Ariel ♥ Gold 14:09, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I've just gone ahead and changed it. As far as I can tell, the labels work exactly as intended, with categories correctly appearing (or not) on appropriate pages. In the (unlikely) event that we need extra control over categories, I'll make the necessary changes. Jakew 14:36, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Very nice, Jake! Awesome of you to do this and I'm glad you're here! Ariel ♥ Gold 14:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. What a nice thing to say! :-) Jakew 14:53, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Options
I've added two additional options for formatting: First is a nested table with a colored background, that also allows for an addition of a second row if needed. The table grows with the addition of labels, so doesn't span the entire width of the page. The second is the "invisible" table, which allows users to not have the table borders visible.

I've also added a few language labels, and changed the wording to specify that the use of them generally means a native-level, we can add subsections under them for various levels of proficiency as time goes on. I also re-organized the page to have the same sections used in the main userbox page, to keep things easier to organize and find. Ariel ♥ Gold 10:42, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Nice go, glad you came to help ! ℒibrarian  2  16:15, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Nice improvements
I am really glad that you Jakew took interest in this and you ArielGold liked and adopted it as well. I think many people around will like to have the option. I was thinking that perhaps we should limit the categories available, so people don't end up with a soup of letters in their pages that no one understands. What about leaving out things as interests or opinions or lifestyles, ususally who wants to show those also likes boxes (my opinion). What about keeping Professions, languages, WikiProjects, Wiki participations, perhaps countries and location/hour (I am not sure) Opinions? ℒibrarian 2  16:21, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * My view is that labels are so easy to create that we can simply wait and see what people create or request. I'd say should probably adopt the restrictions from WP:USERBOX (and sections below) for Template: space labels. People can obviously create others in their User talk: space (User: space wouldn't work due to technical limitations). Jakew 18:44, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * (EC)That was exactly my thought when I re-worded the project to say "most major boxes". The "simple" premise would most likely be embraced by those who aren't going to wish to display a whole bunch of boxes. Languages, projects perhaps (best to start with the most popular projects, there are tons of those out there too), and items related to Wikipedia directly, such as Admin, BC, RC, etc. Also, I think it would be good to intentionally make them as descriptive in one word as possible. For instance, I had no idea Swedish language was "svenska" and I'd have no clue what that meant on a user's page if I were reading it. I considered re-naming the template (and I'd support that 100%), but I don't see it as a big issue. But I think we should discuss names prior to creating templates on some categories that may be harder to figure out by mere initials. As you said, you'd end up with a pile of letters and it would get confusing. One of the advantages to userboxes is that they can utilize two or even three columns to describe something, using both letters, and words to clarify, such as having "ET". That could mean a lot of things, but when you add "This user is in the Eastern Time Zone", it clarifies. it. That is something that won't be an option here, and will need to be considered. Ariel ♥ Gold 18:50, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Per Jake's comment, that page states In the template namespace, userbox names must begin with "User " (e.g. Template:User Brazil)., so would it be wise for labels to follow the same guidelines, and rename/move all the current label templates, before the list gets too large? Ariel ♥ Gold 18:53, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes better to move them but I don't dare, I'm not so good at that. About your point of meaningless letters, perhaps we should adopt a convention now before there are too many labels to correct, for example to adopt an indicative before the letters, say to projects of course WP, for languages L- for Professions P-, for Wikipedia related W- , etc ? ℒibrarian 2  19:00, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Also may be languages should follow the country codes? so Swedish will become SE ? No. that will make confusing if we use labels for nationalities, better just the starting two or three letters of the language ? ℒibrarian  2  19:04, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * For the prefix, good idea, I'd go with that. Should it be a colon or a dash? W: or W - ? As for moving, I can take care of that. It will keep the page's history that way. Also, with regards to language, I'd suggest staying with the current category name, en for English, etc. People are used to those initials, and we should stay as close to userboxes as possible just for that reason. I think we'll need to get Misza here to archive the talk page as well, as if this project garners many requests, an archive service would be helpful. Finally, I've put up a notice about this project at the Userbox project's talk page, but I think we should discuss how else to get the word out about this, as I don't think people would have any idea this exists. Ariel ♥ Gold 19:06, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmm. Nice idea, but I have a sinking feeling that English will be labelled US.
 * User US is for users living in the United States. Ariel ♥ Gold 19:17, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I kind of like LA- as a prefix for languages, followed by the ISO suffix. LA-EN, for example. As for moving, Go on, dare. Jakew 19:08, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I go with the LA- and perhaps should be dash for languages, professions, etc and colon for projects only ? ℒibrarian  2  19:13, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Dash or colon, I think consistency should be used for all categories to avoid confusion. (my opinion). P.S. I'm having a hard time following conversations, can we keep indenting until it is 5 or 6, and then unindent, just for ease of reading? :) Thanks! Ariel ♥  Gold 19:18, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

In projects pages
At the projects I have contact with, I am adding at the userbox section for example:


 * If you prefer to Keep It Simple, you can use user label WPTimetracer which displays:

So people starts to know about this option ℒibrarian  2  16:55, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment I dont know if K.I.S doesn't sound odd and we should use instead KISimple ? ℒibrarian 2  16:58, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Template user space name
Okay, per the guideline: In the template namespace, userbox names must begin with "User " (e.g. Template:User Brazil).

So, someone who is from the United States of America, uses the template: Template:User_US.

My question is, what should ours be named? Template:User_US_label? English language users are Category:User_en, so would ours be Category:User_en_label? Ariel ♥ Gold 19:16, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I suggest that we use a standard name of "Template:User label X". For consistency, I'd prefer the same X as in the corresponding userbox "Template:User X". KIS. Jakew 19:19, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * So let me see if I understand you, you're suggesting that the "living in the United States" box, which is Template:User_US for the userbox, become Template:User_US_KIS? Ariel ♥ Gold 19:21, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * No, sorry, I didn't mean that. I'm saying that the label corresponding to Template:User US should be Template:User label US. Jakew 19:24, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay yeah that's what I initially thought, but the use of KIS threw me off, lol. Either way I guess, whatever works, but I prefer Template:User label US as well. Okay I'll move the templates later tonight. Ariel ♥ Gold 19:30, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Prefixes

 * Ideas for defining category type:


 * Wikipedia: = W:
 * Wikipedia Projects: = WP:
 * Language: = LA:
 * Interests and tastes: = Int:
 * Life, status, and situation: = Life: (?)

Interests and Life may initially seem irrelevant for minimalism, but keep in mind that people often prefer to add themselves to categories by education level, place of residence, time zone, age, and interest preference (to explain their editing interests).

Considering all of this, I feel kind of concerned that this can end up being a collection of seemingly random, un-decipherable letters, that would mean nothing to someone not familiar with them. Things will really need to be looked at, to be sure it is "obvious" the meaning, or the point is lost. Ariel ♥ Gold 19:15, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I would suggest to keep the colon only for Wikipedia as WP or W and all others with dash for easier differentiation ℒibrarian  2  19:22, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd disagree, consistency should be used. But that's just my opinion, it isn't such a big deal that I'd be upset if you want to do it that way. [[Image:Face-wink.svg|20px]] Ariel ♥ Gold 19:29, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I really don't mind in one way or other, I just was thinking in the guideline we have at libraries for people differentiate "official" from "not official" codes of publications ℒibrarian  2  19:35, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Label hovername
Okay another issue I just found, when you don't specify the full namespace, when you hover the mouse over it, it is not at all helpful. For instance, hover your mouse over WP:KIS. Now hover your mouse over WP:KIS. Big difference. I firmly believe in this project that all of the templates must have the full description in the link for hover-overs, that's just really needed, especially for things like the shortcut for that Time Tracing project, WP:TIMET, which does not give any idea what the item is, but when it becomes WP:TIMET, it just takes a second to find out what it is, and no navigation away from the page viewed. I doubt people will want to have to click forward and back to discover what all the labels mean, so I really think we should use the hover over option to help them. Thoughts? Jake this would mean some overhauls on your template, sorry Ariel ♥  Gold 19:28, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


 * That is a good point ℒibrarian  2  19:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok, that's easy to change. I'll do so as soon as they're stable. Jakew 19:41, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, don't you have to change how the template works first? My moving the old ones won't matter, I can change those as I go, but with the template, it needs to have the two options, one for the full Wikipedia name, and the other for the KIS designation, yes? (Again sorry if I'm confused) Ariel ♥ Gold 19:46, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * By sheer luck, the template already handles two names. Set tgt to the destination page, and tgtname to the label text. Jakew 19:54, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Lots of letters issue
That can be addressed perhaps by having instead of one bar only, a kind of 5 racks stand, each one saying at the beginning "Projects", Languages", etc so each label goes in the corresponding rack? ℒibrarian  2  19:32, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, that's getting into the area of forcing a user into a style of userpage, if you add columns. It should be something they could choose to do, but not something as default, I think. For the minimalist, they'd want one tiny line of small unobtrusive boxes to add themselves to categories. Not a large square table. (Again my opinion lol.) Ariel ♥ Gold 19:48, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Agree with ArielGold. However, we can always make suggestions. How about:

This is my Keep It Simple label rack. Hover the mouse pointer over a label to see what it means.

Prefixes are: LA- language, P- profession, WP- Wikipedia project, W- Other Wikipedia.

Jakew 19:51, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, I would prefer to keep it as simple as possible, by that reason I made the option of that line that looks like a simple rail. Can the box you made Jake look more simple ? ℒibrarian  2  19:54, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


 * What about leaving the options we already have for aligning the boxes and just create one label that says "Hover here" or "Labels explanation" so it goes as first label always ? and when you hover it says what says the box Jake presented here ℒibrarian  2  20:01, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Another idea...

Jakew 10:31, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Very good idea
I want to congratulate you for this idea, it is something that was missing and will surely become part of Wikipedia as much as the boxes. I made for myself please feel free to use or modificate, I donate it to KIS. Heltzen◩ 08:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that solution is one of those that are so blindingly obvious that nobody thought of it until now! I like it. Jakew 09:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Added to project page. I'll be working on moving all the existing labels over to user space this morning, so I appreciate you creating yours in User space lol. Thank you Heltzen! Ariel ♥ Gold 09:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry I'm afraid I don't know what that is or how to do it :( Heltzen◩ 09:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You already did it. The one you made went into the "right" space: Template:User label KIS, when we'd previously been creating them in the "wrong" space, lol, you did a great job! [[Image:Face-wink.svg|20px]] Ariel ♥  Gold 10:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Propagation of KIS labels and Lapelpin Barnstars
You have seen probably the lapelpin barnstars I added to your well deserved barnstars guys. I think that you could propagate the use of KIS labels if you also make KIS barnstars and add them to the barnstars messages, so people can use their well earned awards at their userpages without looking arrogant (to some "special" people, nothing wrong in showing what you earn :) !) or excessive. I created two in case you want to give a look:



I am sorry but cannot help much in this one but at least I make this contribution which may be helps to propagation of the concept Heltzen◩ 09:50, 29 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Those could look nice if they were aligned to the right of the rack, with labels on the left... Jakew 10:35, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

If you are interested in propagating the KIS concept through barnstars that people use quite a bit, give a look at to see how I included the lapel pin barnstar in the barnstar message, may be could help you? Those are templates I made for WikiProject Timeline Tracer/Awards Hopes it helps you Heltzen◩ 12:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Update
Ariel ♥ Gold 12:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC) Ariel ♥ Gold 14:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Moved all templates to the user space per WP:USERBOX.
 * Removed all existing double redirects resulting from moves (and from previous moves of some templates).
 * Updated look and format of label listing.
 * Added prefix to all existing templates.
 * Edited KIS Label design template to clarify proper usage.
 * Added Jake's two themes to list, changed header title to "Display options".
 * Changed header title of "Membership not required" to "How to help".
 * Moved TOC below introduction on Project Page
 * Added a slight blue border, and white background to page, to make the code boxes stand out.
 * Edited KIS Label design template to clarify proper naming convention of new templates.

Label request
Sorry to bother, I know you are working hard on this one, but could anyone, within available time, make the following labels? (no hurry)
 * Pilot (would prefer aviator but pilot will do)
 * WP:Martial Arts

Thanks in advance Heltzen◩ 13:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Heltzen, it is no bother at all! Please pick out a pilot userbox from this list that is appropriate for you, let me know which one you want, and I'll make it. I made the WikiProject Martial arts box. If you'd like a specific "interest" box, please choose from this list. Ariel ♥  Gold 13:56, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject:Martial arts

User label WPMartial Arts


 * Thanks for that one, the other should be but without the "professional" Thanks Heltzen◩ 14:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Just for clarity, that box says: 	This user is a certified commercial helicopter pilot. and links to Aviator. Which part didn't you want included, I don't see the word "professional" there. Ariel ♥ Gold 14:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry about that I meant "commercial" . Thanks Heltzen◩ 15:01, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Okie Dokie! What would you like the label to be: Aviator or Pilot? (Saw your pref above) Ariel ♥ Gold 15:07, 29 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you for these Heltzen◩ 17:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

User label Rotor-5
 * Ariel ♥ Gold 15:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Keeping it simple
Try editing this section to see what produces the following. It's very simple. Any comments? Worth moving into Template: space?

If the consensus is that this is a good idea, I'll name the top and bottom templates as and.

I can optionally add a style parameter if needed, so would produce one style and  would produce another. Jakew 14:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I have no idea what you're asking, lol. It looks the same as the one above, to me. Ariel ♥ Gold 14:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The results are the same, but look what produces them. This is the code from above:




 * And this is the (simpler) code I'm proposing:




 * Jakew 14:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Again not really sure what I'm supposed to see, or what the question is, but I'd suggest not having something from your userspace in a code. Sorry I'm dense, but you're most obviously far above me in whatever coding stuff you do, lol. I just copy stuff and tweak it, but I have very little idea what the "language" of it means or does. Ariel ♥ Gold 14:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

The templates are in my userspace at present, but I anticipate moving them into template space. If I do so, this code:

Would produce: And this code:

Would produce: (I've added a theme ) Jakew 15:07, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Easy options for pretty colors are always welcomed by me! Go for it, replace whatever box on the project page you want with that. Very pretty! Ariel ♥ Gold 15:14, 29 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Very nice ! ℒibrarian  2  15:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone like...
These? Currently a prototype... Jakew 17:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I really think we need to not get too many options up here. Users can modify them as they wish, and if they don't know how, they can ask here easily enough and Jake can run to the rescue! [[Image:Face-grin.svg|25px]] Ariel ♥  Gold 17:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm inclined not to agree; presenting too many options at first will just confuse. We need a default appearance, though - one that appears if no theme is specified. Can I suggest the following?


 * Comments? Jakew 18:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * LOL I'm confused, I said I thought "probably having too many options wasn't a good idea initially", and you disagree, saying "presenting too many options will confuse". (Isn't that agreeing with me? LOL) [[Image:Face-grin.svg|25px]]. Here's my suggestion: We have 1-2 options on the main page, and create a subpage with a "Gallery of Display Options", having all varieties you've so awesomely come up with. What do you think of doing it that way? (Would just say "To see more display options, see the Gallery).Ariel ♥ Gold 18:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, must learn to proof-read properly! Yes, I agree with you. [[Image:Face-grin.svg|25px]]
 * I think your 1/2 options + gallery idea is absolutely the right thing to do. However, we need to choose the 1 or two standard options, and I need to adjust the templates so that those are the defaults. Jakew 19:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

OMG
People! What have you done with the place? I though I was lost! It looks great!!! You are really making it work. Now I feel pretty useless with my few coding (kind of Tarzan-Jane communication) and rookie Wikiexperience. Oh, Heltzen, thanks for the Barnstar, that was enormously kind.

Jake, I know what you mean, yes that is much better coding, go ahead if no one opposes. ℒibrarian 2  15:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hee hee, I'm so happy you like it, Jake has been hard at work! Ariel ♥ Gold 15:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Archiving discussion
Please give your input as to whether you would support or oppose the automatic archiving of this talk page. If the support is in favor, I will go ahead and get it set up, with threads older than 5 days being auto-archived. (Yes, I'm lazy and don't like to scroll ) Ariel ♥  Gold 15:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I say yes ℒibrarian  2  15:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, absolutely. Jakew 19:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Is it just the four of us right now? (With Heltzen) I see no reason not to, especially if this ends up generating requests, so I'll go ahead and set it up. Everything will stay, just in an archived space. If we find 5 days is too short, we can always change that, but it seems like the average time. Ariel ♥ Gold 20:14, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Changes
I've spun out WikiProject Keep It Simple/Options, have written documentation on using label themes, and have written a short section on the main project page that explains how to use the default theme. Any comments/suggestions? Jakew 19:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Took a look, did some tiny formatting tweaks. Added one example to project page. (We need to have something that shows the usefulness there) and re-worded it a bit. I was looking at the padding on the purple box, and it is not even. Is there a way to make sure that the top and bottom "blank space" is even? Currently, the top has about twice as much padding. Otherwise, looks awesome, as always Jake! Great job! Ariel ♥ Gold 20:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You were quite right, now fixed. Jakew 00:03, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I replaced the example in the main page for the simplest model, I hope is OK ℒibrarian  2  07:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

DIvision of tasks
I can see, Jake and Ariel, that you have taken a good speed at the labels development thing for not mentioning at the project's pages layout, cannot say anything else than: You are THE Greatest driving force behind this project ! . I cannot even dream in dealing with that with the speed and taste you have, so I am on the PR of the project. I have placed a line at the userboxes page informing of the alternative existing, I have registered the project at the projects directory and I will go around informing in diverse suitable places.

I also think that we should make this extensive to what can be seen by some as too much clutter in their user pages which may be:
 * Userboxes (already addressed)
 * Large chains of messages (maybe we can have at the main page instruction on how to use bots for archiving or a link)
 * Stars (users willing to display but afraid of calling too much the attention)

I liked the idea of Heltzen, stars go around and if we also give a solution for displaying them in a rack and we include them in star messages, we can widespread the existence of KIS alternatives. What do you think? I can get busy making some stars and including them in barnstar messages... ℒibrarian 2  07:24, 30 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Excellent work! We need people to use these labels if they're to be worthwhile (at the moment I note that only Heltzen and myself are in Category:User KIS).
 * I love the idea of putting stars on the rack. I'd really like to have them line up on the right-hand side of the rack, with the text labels lined up on the left.
 * I'm a little uncomfortable with extending the project's scope to include user talk: pages. I think it makes it harder to define the purpose of the project. To my mind, it's better to focus simply on simple organisation of user pages. But I won't be upset if others disagree. Jakew 10:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * For the promotion aspect, I'd suggest we stay away from the acronym "K.I.S." when promoting, and use the term "If you prefer to Keep It Simple". This is just for the fact that saying "If you prefer to K.I.S..." is going to come across as "Kiss" regardless, lol. I don't hate the acronym of this project, no worries, I just think that for introducing it to others, the full name should probably be used. For the barnstars: Mini-stars already exist, I'm trying to recall the users I know who use the tiny versions, but when I run across them, I'll show you. They are not in the little boxes, though, and they display at the upper right of the user page, so it isn't quite the same thing, so I think it could be quite interesting to have them in the design Heltzen made, and place them on the same "rack" that the labels go on. As for mentioning archiving, eh... that's something really not related to userpage design, and I'd probably say not important to mention. I also would probably agree with Jake, and suggest staying away from the talk page area, it really would be difficult to try to control that, as the nature of talk pages is not really conducive to "minimalism", lol. Ariel ♥  Gold 12:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The people has spoken :) Talk pages are out! Just for knowing, how you make the bot archive your talk pages?  ℒibrarian  2  13:07, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You just place the proper code in the page, with the parameters you want. I've set it for 5 days. I think the bot runs once a day, but I'm not sure. Either way, the project is not 5 days old yet, so it won't be archived for a few days. Ariel ♥ Gold 13:19, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Rack design
Jake, is there any way to make the label racks work like my blue nested table, in that the "rack" (bar, line, whatever it is termed) isn't full width automatically, and instead grows with the labels as you add them? It seems that here's this entire bar, and it goes all the way across the screen, and only has 1-2 labels. Granted, this might be just a personal thing, and nobody else may care, but if it is an easy thing to fix, I think it might be a valid option to consider, a variable-width one, that can be centered, so that it is really unobtrusive if only a couple labels are on it, or it could be expanded to full width if many labels are on it. Ariel ♥ Gold 13:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It turns out that this is ludicrously difficult to do correctly. I'll try to figure out how to do it, but as a temporary solution I've added iwidth and owidth parameters to user label top. iwidth controls the width of the inner box, while owidth controls the width of the outer box. Some examples:

Hope this helps. Jakew 18:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah that's exactly what I meant, I think the last one would work perfectly for people who only have a couple labels to display. As always, you rock! Ariel ♥ Gold 19:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Just for fun
ℒibrarian 2  21:35, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Nice... Very cute. Jakew 19:24, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Info label
What do you think? 07:36, 31 August 2007 (UTC) ℒibrarian  2

Request for label
Can someone make a label for and add it to WP:AVIATION? Thank you Heltzen◩ 09:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Done! (See the project's talk page, there seems to be some sort of category issue that I could not figure out) Ariel ♥ Gold 19:21, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

You seem nice people
Do you want to create a label for:

and can you add it to your user pages (if you share the opinion) ? We are trying to expand this campaign. Thank you for considering it Vanished user 11:32, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Not completed for now: Requesting editor has been blocked indefinitely. Will reconsider if someone else wants this as a label. Ariel ♥ Gold 19:54, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Proficiency levels
This is what I was looking for. The standard userboxes take so much place. Little boxes on a rail are fine. Could it be possible to have little explanatory text in the boxes (along with help by hovering the mouse over the box). The codes seem a bit mysterious.

I created the dutch template. For proficiency levels, do you plan just to add -n to the template? Like B:EN-3 for english with advanced level? Arjen Dijksman 13:12, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for creating the User label nl template. If you haven't done so already, I'll add it to the project page.


 * As for proficiency levels, that has been suggested previously. I can see two options. We can create a separate template for each level ( or  ). Alternatively, we can add an optional parameter to Babel templates.


 * My own preference is for the level parameter, but what do others think? Any comments? Jakew 13:19, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I would also prefer a level parameter (in order to keep it simple;-) Arjen Dijksman 14:19, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh, I almost forgot: don't you already get an explanation when you hover the mouse? Jakew 13:20, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The tooltip is OK, but abbreviations like B:EN may seem incomprehensible to outsiders. Could there be a parameter where we could modifiy it in "English speaking" or "English native" for example? By the way, is it also possible to shorten the rail? Arjen Dijksman 14:19, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You can use User label directly, if you prefer. For example, use instead of User label nl. I'll try to think of ways to make this easier.
 * You can shorten the rail by adding |owidth=50% (for example) to User label top. Jakew 14:33, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Changes
I've made a few changes to User label top. These are:
 * 1) In recognition of the fact that users might want to add explanatory text, might want multiple racks, and might not like User label KIS, I've added an infotext parameter to the rack.
 * 2) I've added a category parameter to the rack, mainly to make it easy to add Category:User KIS. I'm tempted to change this to add this category by default, but allow a 'nocat'-style override - any comments?
 * 3) This template now has documentation!

Example usage:

Jakew 14:27, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The explanatory thing is very useful . The cat should go by default in my opinion, it will spread the existence of this ℒibrarian  2  19:03, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I really like this better than having the label itself explain. Very nice job Jake, as always! Ariel ♥ Gold 19:04, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Two labels
When you have time Jake or Ariel, can you do one at the page Wikipedia talk:Please do not bite the newcomers and at WP:UPDATE? Sorry to bother but I don't know what I make wrong that I cannot get the info when hovering so I didn't finish to make those. If you explain me I make them in the future and don't need to bother you guys ℒibrarian  2  19:15, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * User label WPUpdate Done. Ariel ♥ Gold 19:41, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Done. Ariel ♥ Gold 20:04, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

When creating labels
I think that the description should have the full project name:

This a Keep It Simple Label to indicate... ( This a Keep It Simple Label to indicate )

Instead of:

This a KIS label to indicate... ( This a KIS label to indicate )

Again, for hover-over reasons, but just because I think it is best to fully explain the project name on the separate templates, if someone was directed there from somewhere other than this project page.

Thoughts? Ariel ♥ Gold 20:07, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Seems reasonable. I think that we're going to have to write a 'creating labels' subpage shortly. Jakew 21:08, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

User label en
User label en now supports levels. If there are no problems I'll update the other language labels soon.

I've had to make some substantial changes to the labels mechanism to make this work. In brief:


 * 1) User label now supports an 'extracat' parameter, which allows a second category to be added. Both catname and extracat are now optional.
 * 2) I've created User label withlevel, which basically takes a 'prefix', a 'level', and a 'catname', and automagically creates a label with the appropriate categories.
 * 3) I've modified User label en to pass-thru the level parameter.

All I can say is that it works for me. If anyone has any problems, please let me know. Jakew 21:08, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Rofl I have no idea what that says, can you translate it into "Dummy" for me? Or give examples for me? [[Image:Face-wink.svg|25px]] Ariel ♥ Gold 21:18, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok, here are some examples:

Jakew 21:24, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * That's awesome, Jake, and Neranei said that the new ones she's making will be able to have the parameter on them? That's just super. We'll need to write up somewhere a really simple explanation of how to make that work for folks! Ariel ♥ Gold 00:26, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, I completely agree. Since too many people are editing the project page right now, I'll draft something here. How about adding this to the languages section:


 * Note: experimental support has been added for language proficiency levels. To specify a proficiency level, simply add '|level=x' to the label, where x is one of '1', '2', '3', '4', '5', or 'N'. For example, to specify that you're a native English speaker, use.


 * Jakew 23:34, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Vroooom!!
Just look at Neranei go to town on making these language labels! What a trooper, I only mentioned in passing I was working on this, and next thing I know, she's off and running, how awesome is that? We're lucky! Ariel ♥ Gold 23:25, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations
Title: What a speed Just came by to see how you are doing, what a speed! congrats, never saw a project taking off so fast. Well done! Heltzen◩ 13:38, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

One question, I have the label of WikiProject Aviation in my page but I was not added to category, anyone knows why? Heltzen◩ 14:17, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Jake fixed that for you Heltzen, sorry! Ariel ♥ Gold 04:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you people :) Heltzen◩ 16:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Category
Okay, I just noticed this, but there is no category for members of this project who are not ones to use the labels. The WP:KIS label says "This a Keep It Simple Label to indicate to visitors how to read your KIS Labels. It automatically adds users who display it to the category for users who prefer to KIS (Keep It Simple)." But it is an assumption that the user uses the labels instead of userboxes. I'm not one of those, but I would consider myself a member of this project. So I am thinking of creating a "Membership" category instead, opinions? Thoughts? Ariel ♥ Gold 04:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I am kind of an outsider but I will gladly see that category as a good thing Heltzen◩ 16:57, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

New Userboxes
It's been a while since userboxes were banished from the template namespace. What I see now is that they have basically been recreated as, only they look innocent. Is there any reason why user label can't be used everywhere? (Read: substitute all instances of other templates so user label WPAviation becomes for example.) Thankfully, due to their simplicity, these boxes do not recreate a problem of divisiveness, they do however cause a lot of noise in the templatespace. I predict problems with this, sooner or later. :-/ Миша 13 21:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi Misza!! I'm not sure what issues there were in the past, I don't use these labels, but I was asked to help with design stuff when the project was new, but as it turns out, Jakew did most of the coding for the labels, and I honestly have no clue how they work anymore, lol. What is the history here? There was something just like this in the past? If you can give some history on whatever the past problems were, that'd help. As for substitution, well userboxes are not substituted, so why would mini-userboxes be? Again maybe a stupid question just because I don't get the coding problem, whatever that is, lol. Maybe Jake can figure out what the problem is and fix it, but I admit I'm pretty lost now with how the labels work, I'm not even sure I could make one anymore, lol. I do think it would be best if labels were created on request for obscure things like what country one lives in, obscure languages, etc. But, that's only my own opinion. Ariel  ♥  Gold  11:48, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * WP:USERBOX states that userboxes may be created in the Template: namespace, but only if they meet certain criteria. Is that not correct anymore? Jakew (talk) 21:03, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Ideas
Any ideas on how to make these labels known to all the Wikipedians who don't use userboxes? ℒibrarian 2  18:39, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm. It's a tricky problem. Unless and until there is some 'critical mass', nobody knows that racks/labels exist as an alternative, so the result is that people either a) have userboxes, or b) nothing.
 * It's just a random idea, but what if we could use userboxes to gain some momentum for KIS? For example, suppose we were to create a userbox that's actually a miniature rack, with enough space for 3-4 labels. People could then use these userbox/racks to compress 'boring' information into a small space, but could also use 'fun' userboxes that they find appealing and expressive. Thoughts? Jakew (talk) 21:35, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
 * That is a great idea! It might work. Please start on it if you can ℒibrarian  2  12:25, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, here's a rough prototype. I'd need to make a few changes before it became usable, but would welcome comments:

Jakew (talk) 17:58, 19 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I think it looks quite good. Perhaps a bit more color and something about "simple" labels ? What do you think? ℒibrarian  2  21:03, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately we haven't got much space for the text, and if I add any more it will flow onto two lines (which will make the box have non-standard dimensions). But I've done a little tweaking, and we now have configurable colours.

Jakew (talk) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (UTC)


 * It is good looking! What do you think about making, based on that model a userbox for Babel labels and a userbox for Wikiprojects participation. These I think that may be the two areas where users may be most interested in condensing many boxes into one. What do you think? ℒibrarian  2  19:37, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I think we can do both with one template:


 * Jakew (talk) 19:54, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * It looks plainly beautiful. I think that this is exactly it. Do you want to integrate those in a new section at the main page? I can then paste them with some info at the userboxes informative page (unless you feel for doing that) and we can try to spread the use of them. ℒibrarian  2  20:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks! I've added documentation, and have moved the templates out of my user space (which, as an aside, I managed to get completely wrong - must be tired!). They're now User label box top and User label box bottom. Jakew (talk) 22:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Making it more complicated ;)
I've tried a different approach with an intent similar to yours. A Userbox can be replaced with an Icon, which is the dissociated sidebar of a Userbox, carrying the same category information, which is held in an Icon Corner on a home page such as mine. Whether in or out of the Userbox the Icon uses the 'imagemap' tag to link to a Club which is intended to be used as a convenient set of resources and a place of discussion for people taking an interest in the Userbox/Icon. If this interests anyone perhaps these formats can be made interconvertible with yours. Mike Serfas (talk) 00:36, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It is a very interesting approach and one that can co-exist with the KIS labels, even to be interconvertible as you propose. Plus the "clubs" idea.
 * Your idea is fully compatible with the purpose of this project, to provide simpler layout alternatives. You will be very welcome to integrate the icon-Corner concept as one more viable alternative to escape from the clutter of multiple userboxes. I think that if no one opposes, Mike's idea can be integrated into the WP KIS main page as one more (very nice) option allowing users who want a simpler layout to choose between KIS labels racks or Icon corners or the integration of both. Please Mike, go ahead and integrate into the main page if you see it suitable. ℒibrarian  2  19:47, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

New ideas
I just want to thank you Jake for the wonderful idea and the very appealing design of the userbox for labels. Besides all the work he has done creating the labels and the racks since start, this idea of the box is just great.

I also want to thank Mike for his kind interest in approaching this project with such an interesting and appealing idea of the icon-corner, it is indeed a great idea for Keeping It Simple in an alternative but compatible way with the KIS labels and racks.

I believe that with these two great ideas the users who want simpler layouts can make some leaps forward. Thank you guys. ℒibrarian 2  19:59, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I thank you both for the encouragement. Making my templates look good in combination with yours may take some fiddling... I'll see what I can do.  (At the moment Internet Explorer still cuts off the top border line of the labels...) Mike Serfas (talk) 06:13, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The Icons are looking very nice ℒibrarian  2  13:39, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Hobbies?
Should Hobbies be under L: or Int:? I presume hobbies are generally more active than interests are, necessarily. I just realized I made Go, and put it under Int: -- probably because, for me, it's more of an interest (thing to think about) than hobby (thing to do). However, for most players of the game, it's likely the opposite.

Any thoughts?&#8201;—&#8201;gogobera (talk) 00:15, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Categories
WP: B: Int: L: W: O:

Is it just me, or do the categories as they stand seem a bit off? I feel like L: is a much larger category than the rest: With a description including "Life", it's actually hard to think of any aspect that couldn't fall under L:.

I was wondering two things:
 * Could we nest categories? E.G. L:ED: for Life:Education:? This would include things like alma-mater's (or current schools), degrees, certifications, etc.


 * We remove L: since it's the only category that seems so overburdened, at the moment. Leave L:, but not for "Life, etc" but for "Location". Add ED: for education as mentioned above.

Hmmm. Ok, looking at how it's done over in Userbox-land, I see the rational for the current setup. The difference is that over here, we have some odd (some empty) sub-catagories. I guess there aren't enough boxes yet to warrant sub-pages, but would anyone object if I carried over the userbox hierarchy point-by-point? Ah, what the hell, I'll just go ahead and see if I can fix it up how I like it! :) Please, if anyone wants to, undo, and we can discuss. Or we can discuss even if you don't undo! OK, here goes nothin'.&#8201;—&#8201;gogobera (talk) 03:02, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


 * OK, I changed the order of some things, and added some blank headings as examples. Also, I plan on filling in some of these. Otherwise, they're mainly useful as suggestions and can be deleted if they're really bothering someone. Hopefully this will help the project: Instead of duplicating the work done with userboxes, we can inherit their hierarchy -- for free!

This seems like a good idea to me, though I am not sure what has happened in the last five years. :) --Daemox (talk) 05:52, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

I'd like the labels ordered better, too. I also like using userbox hierarchy, though these are different enough that it might not work the same... Maybe we could group some more like I did for Babel, such as WP:KIS/L/EDU for Life: education. Or, just WP:KIS/EDU is fine with me. Userboxes aren't ordered this way, but it would avoid naming conflicts. Some labels should only be made in userspace. Others can use generic labels. I'm not sure of the prefixes. Some users don't like them, and make custom labels, instead, but maybe they could be made more informative, like EDU:... instead of L:... as the above user has suggested in a recent contribution. -PC-XT+ 08:09, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

User label now categorizes its transclusions
Any template that has User label transcluded into it will be categorized into Category:Keep It Simple templates. Only templates will be categorized as such. Have a nice day! - LA (T) 08:23, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Requests
I'd love to see labels for these WikiProjects if anyone has the time.
 * WikiProject Films & American cinema task force — Both found here
 * WP TV
 * WP Sci Fi
 * WikiProject Horror

Thanks in advance if you can accommodate. Millahnna (mouse) talk  03:10, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * The 4 project templates have been created and are described on the project page. I haven't created the template for the American task force of WPFilms because I don't know that task forces are within the scope of this project &mdash; I only see user templates for WikiProjects so far. Here are the new templates:
 * User label WPFilms
 * User label WPHorror
 * User label WPSciFi
 * User label WPTV
 * Hope you find them useful! Big Bird (talk • contribs) 13:01, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Active
so is this still active? As you've been nominated for deletion... 70.24.248.23 (talk) 05:45, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

TfD
The main KIS template,, and the others branching from it, are being discussed for deletion at Templates for discussion/Log/2013 February 6. The main templates may move to subpages of this one. I am preparing a recommendation at User:PC-XT/KIS. Feel free to comment on the talk page, or even add labels, or comment on ones already listed in the article itself, if you have an opinion. PC-XT (talk) 05:47, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I mean feel free to edit User:PC-XT/KIS or its talk page. Also, feel free to comment on the TfD, of course. PC-XT (talk) 05:53, 9 February 2013 (UTC)