Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Anime- and manga-related articles/Archive 1

Note
This page was created from content originally on the WikiProject Anime and manga page. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 06:15, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Proposed guideline addition: other language information
This has been discussed before, and the conclusion I remember from the discussions is that we don't need or want non-Japanese and non-English dub and release information in the main body of the article because that's what the other language wikis are for. I think it's fine to include them in the infobox under the "other_whatever" sections, but anything beyond that belongs only in the other language wikis, which can be linked to using the interwiki links. Thoughts? ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:57, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed -- except possibly for those cases where an other language dub is particularly noteworthy (such as Miyazaki's preference for the French version of Porco Rosso over the Japanese). —Quasirandom 20:07, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * There can always be specific exceptions to the guidelines. In that case, I think it would be sufficient to note that Miyazaki prefers that version (and why, if we have a source to that effect), but we don't need to list all the details of that version. We just don't want to have articles flooded by other language information as has been the case in some articles. That's what the other language wikis are for. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 20:28, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I know of three instances... where it was discussed, but a guideline has never been established. I'm all for removing all these non-notable (sometimes unverifiable) foreign dub information.--Nohansen 21:09, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Discussion on videogame voice-acting. ("Generally, Spanish/German/French/Esperanto/etc. voice actors don't really belong on the English Wikipedia.")
 * Marmalade Boy voice actors
 * Japanese/English voice actors


 * I think we should leave the discussion open for 3 weeks (until September 15) and then make a decision based on the consensus reached. As of this point, the unanimous consensus is that we should have a guideline that specifically excludes non-Japanese and non-English release information outside of the limited amount in infoboxes. Since I wrote that, though, I bet someone comes along opposing it. (^_^;; ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 21:38, 25 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I completely agree with Nihonjoe's proposed guideline as well. Some articles (especially many of the World Masterpiece Theater-related pages) had often earlier become unnecessarily cluttered, so I'd think this proposed guideline would be a perfect addition. ··· 巌流 ? · talk to ganryuu 08:19, 27 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I concur — the (networks') information is useful in the information box, and can be hidden unless the user expands that specific section. Usually the full voice actors' information is available in Anime News Network in any case; there is no need to duplicate the full list here. The articles begin to lose their value if 80% of the content is information about foreign language dubs (unless they are notable in English sources). Regards, G.A.S 11:23, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I accept this proposal because the only things that need to apply on this English Wikipedia for an anime-related character article are the cast members from the English Dub and the original version that was presented in Japan. It is both confusing and unnecessary for an American anime viewer to know about actors from the cast of an anime shown that was shown in another language other than Japan of course. Therefore it will be better suited in Wiki that displays in that paticular language. I will pretty much wouldn't care about this information removal if this policy is passed. -Adv193 02:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Proposed section addition
Based on the information above, I propose that we include the following under a section titled "Non-English release information":

Information regarding non-English releases (with the sole exception of the original Japanese releases) should not be included in the body of articles on the English-language Wikipedia. Instead, this information should be included in the articles on the appropriate language-specific wiki, and an interwiki link should be added to that article. Adding country information in the "other_xxxx" sections in infoboxes is acceptable. Only English-language and Japanese-language country information should be included in the associated "xxxx" sections of the infoboxes.

Thoughts? ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 21:48, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It would be unnecessary to use the other_xxxx sections if the associated xxxx sections are short enough already (ie. 2 ~ 4 entries). _dk 22:45, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Excellent. I agree with Nihonjoe's proposition and feel that the above section would be a perfect addition. ··· 巌流 ? · talk to ganryuu 08:20, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Objection! Some of the anime do NOT, repeat NOT, have Spanish Wikipedia counterparts. I propose that the Mexican voice actors on the WP pages for anime without Spanish WP counterparts, such as Plastic Little, Dirty Pair Flash, Saint Tail, WXIII: Patlabor the Movie 3, Appleseed, and Mystery of Mamo among others, stay where they are until Spanish language counterparts of those pages can be made, and when they are (and the Spanish WP counterparts of those pages are given interwiki links from en.wikipedia.org to es.wikipedia.org so we aren't fooled by the occasional traitor), we move the Mexican voice actor info to their [the pages'] Spanish WP counterparts. How's that for a proposition? --Ryanasaurus0077 22:23, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If the Spanish Wiki counterparts don't exist, and you can do enough to list them here, just go create them there. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 01:03, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Because we need the help of everyone on the English WP who can speak or translate to Spanish to get those Spanish WP page started. --Ryanasaurus0077 09:55, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * No, the Spanish-language wiki needs to take care of it's own articles. If there are editors here who wish to participate there, that's perfectly fine, but we don't need to be cluttering up English-language articles with information in all the various languages of the world. Again, that's what the other language wikis are for. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 00:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That should NOT, repeat NOT, mean that the foreign Wikis aren't the same as the English WP; whoever wants to pitch in to "OPERATION SAVE THE VOICE ACTORS" join the Spanish WP! --Ryanasaurus0077 21:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The information won't be lost when it's removed from the English wiki pages. You'll still be able to find it in the histories. Just make a list of the pages where you've added it and it will be fairly simple to retrieve it once you're ready. It just doesn't belong here. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 01:39, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Even so, I still might need some help with the Spanish WP counterparts from English WP users who want to join the Spanish WP (I'm a Wikipedian of both Wikis, BTW). --Ryanasaurus0077 11:24, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * English-language: so there's the US & Canada publisher, the UK publisher, and that company in China that does manga in English too (forgot their name). I personally like to have only the Japanese company in the publisher field, and the English in the '_other' field -> this is more uniform throughout articles, as all manga (in wp:manga scope) have a Japanese publisher, not all have an English one (or two or three). Same with anime 'networks' and 'network_other'.
 * As a side-note, glad you want to keep the non-English stuff in the infobox, as a lot of anime was aired in Europe and not in US, but this still informs the wikireaders of the notability and impact of the series outside Japan. Ninja neko 07:43, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I have added this section to the MOS-AM. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 00:55, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment In some cases, like series which have very limited or no releases in English but are popular in the rest of the world, I could see a place for including some amount of information about those releases as it would be important for establishing the notability of the series. --tjstrf talk 01:04, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * As with most everything else on Wikipedia, there will always be exceptions. They should be on a case-by-case basis, though. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 01:36, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment I like how my previous comment is completely ignored. _dk 06:09, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * When we came up with the "other" parameter, I think it was generally agreed that it wasn't manditory. So yeah, if there's only like two or three items, whatever. -- Ned Scott 06:18, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Personally, I've been putting even the English network/publishing/ etc info in "other", since sometimes you can get more than one English network, and in my mind I'm just like "whatever, put them all in other and people won't complain about it". Just a thought. -- Ned Scott 06:18, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Renamed "Sections" to "Series". Need Character Article Guideline
Apologized ahead of time for making a change without discussing it. Change based on a state-of-the-obvious note of that guideline describing the basic structure for articles on anime/manga series. As the number of articles for anime/manga characters grow, a basic guideline will be needed for that. Also noting the current on-going discussion regarding WP:FICT. KyuuA4 06:25, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, guidelines for character articles would be good. *whistles innocently* —Quasirandom 14:41, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * In such a case someone would have to look at (and report back on) the GA / A / FA article classes and their structures; usually it is a good start. But I agree some basic structure and guidance will be useful. G.A.S 15:47, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

MOS vs general guideline
It doesn't bother me what we call this page, but after hearing some of the complaints on WP:FICT, WP:WAF, and WP:TRIVIA, people seem to get mad when you call something a style guideline when it has content guideline stuff. While mostly MOS-based, we have a general-guideline here about anime and manga, and I'd hate to just needlessly split something off because someone made a stink about the tag at the top of the page. Am I overthinking this? -- Ned Scott 06:51, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * MOS. Guideline.  As far as I'm concerned, they're practically the same exact thing.  To maintain consistency and compliance with main WP guidelines as those listed, it is necessary to have a MOS for this specific project group.  As for calling this an MOS, two computer science concepts, encapsulation and inheritance, can be analogously applied.  Under encapulation, MOS guidelines in relation to animanga belong here.  Under inheritance, guidelines from the MOS also applies here. KyuuA4 07:49, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Many manuals of style include guidelines for how something is presented as well as what should be presented. I don't see a problem with including both here as long as the guidelines remain fairly general overall (easier to apply that way, IMNSHO). ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 00:26, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

List of ... articles
Hi all, general question: will this MOS also cover the 'List of episodes' and 'List of characters' articles? Some remarks: But if this is on the long-term planning, no prob. Ninja neko 10:14, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * do we use List of XXX characters or List of characters in XXX as title (the first one are mostly used)
 * there are featured 'list of episode' articles, but no featured 'list of characters' yet I believe.


 * Yanno, I was actually thinking about this, because I'm working up to putting up a 'list of chapters' article (which we also don't have any FA exemplars for) for peer review. I suspect this is a one-thing-at-a-time thing -- though if we have a long-term plan, I don't know where it is. —Quasirandom 16:15, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, let's look at a few of them:
 * Characters of Negima. Does not use "List of" at all, even though it should.
 * List of characters in the Haruhi Suzumiya series.
 * List of minor Sailor Moon characters.
 * I suppose we can be flexible here, as long as "List of" is part of the convention. The title should obviously denote the article as a list.  Referring to List naming and Lists in WP.  Do not see anything explicitly saying "List of". KyuuA4 20:33, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Given what's been happening at List of Maria-sama ga Miteru characters of late, there should be some guidance given as to when to split a character off into their own article. -Malkinann 21:11, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

When work starts on this part (currently character guidelines are drafted, but when lists come up): Another thing I often wonder about for List of characters articles: do we use subsections per character or the definition list as in regular articles? What is a featured list? states that the List articles should have "a substantial but not overwhelming table of contents", having a subsection per char usually makes a looong TOC. So I tend to prefer general subsections ("main characters", "supporting characters", "allies", etc) and the regular article def list for characters. Ninja neko 07:29, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * List of Metal Gear Solid characters is a FL and thus a good list to use for reference.--SeizureDog 07:36, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Person infobox
Which infobox do we use on mangaka and seiyuu pages? For mangaka I like Template:Infobox Writer, but Template:Infobox Comics creator and Template:Infobox person are also used on several articles.

For seiyuu I guess the obvious choice would be Template:Infobox actor voice.

Shall we recommend/appoint a specific infobox in the mangaka/seiyuu sections, or do we leave the choice to the editor? Ninja neko 17:56, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Nothing wrong with Comics Creator; that should do the job nicely for mangaka. Writer and Person infoboxes look like overkill.  Seiyuu, there's already Voice Actor. KyuuA4 03:03, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Character list and character articles

 * If the character section grows long, please reconsider the amount of detail or number of characters included. Beyond that, a separate page, named List of (series) characters, may be appropriate.
 * Separate articles for each character should be avoided unless there is enough verifiable, citable material to warrant a separate article.

This section should make it clear that, even if characters has separate articles, they should still be provided in the list or list article (Per WP:SS). G.A.S 11:15, 15 October 2007 (UTC)