Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 107

Downgrade consistency from mandatory to something less
The guidance currently says:
 * The same format should be used in the main text, footnotes and references of each article, except for:

However, a mismatch between body text and references is widespread and uncontroversial in Wikipedia. The people that control reference templates such as Cite web actually mandate formats that are inconsistent with body text. Note that dates in body text are often part of the reading flow and dates in references are not. I think this is an oversight in the guidance rather than an error in the real world. I propose to bring the guidance into line with reality by simply moving 'footnotes and references' into the exception bullets (one for each). Lightmouse (talk) 13:06, 27 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I've worked out that Lightmouse is referring to the "Full date formatting" subsection :-) . An associated clause in the "Date autoformatting" section further down refers back to it ("The full date formatting section requires consistency in the raw date format within an article"), and would need to be changed likewise.
 * I agree entirely with his proposal: most editors use one of the plethora of uncoordinated citation templates that can make it hard, sometimes impossible, to achieve consistency within all components of an article. While a more flexible, coordinated system of citation templates (and, indeed, infobox templates) is required, we must be realistic in accepting that this is not going to happen any time soon. We might live in hope of this, but in the meantime the guideline is clearly living in cuckoo-land in this respect and is internally contradictory in implication. I know that Sandy, as FAC Delegate, is painfully aware of this particular disjuncture between widespread practice and guidelines.
 * May I commend Lightmouse's suggestion as being a minimal, neat solution. I'm satisfied that editors have been aiming for just what he proposes, probably without realising it: consistency within the main text, and consistency within the citations/notes—not the universal within-article sameness that the rules currently assume. These components—the body of an article and the citations/notes at the bottom—are well separated visually, structurally, and in function. I don't blame the majority of editors for not having noticed that citation templates live in their own world, or if they have, for not regarding this as worth worrying about. It is a welcome proposal. Tony   (talk)  13:59, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

However the wording change is done, please make sure that readers understand that:
 * article text should use one, consistent style for date formatting and linking, and
 * references and footnotes should use one, consistent style for date formatting and linking.

The aim is that article text and footnotes/references may differ in style because of citation template programming, but within the footnotes and references, we should still find consistency in both linking/delinking and style of dates used. That is, if ISO dates are used, they should be used consistently. If international dates are used, they should be used consistently. If dates are delinked or linked, that should be consistent, and so on. That is, we're not letting footnotes and references off the consistency hook; we're just recognizing that current template implementations on Wiki make it very hard to achieve consistenty between article text and citations. We can still achieve consistency within each. I suppose the "consistency dividing line" would be consistency above the See also section, and consistency below the See also section, in terms of WP:LAYOUT. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 16:20, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
 * In other words, I agree with the proposal, but disagree with the section heading here. We are not downgrading consistency as much as we are recognizing a dividing line between article text and everything below See also, but we should still recommend consistency in the "top" of the article and the "bottom" of the article.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 16:25, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

We should be striving for consistency throughout the entire article. It's a time consuming task to adjust templates but, eventually, it's a task that needs doing. Sure, we have a reality to deal with here in writing the MoS but the authors of these templates have a reality to deal with too. We'll do well to recognise this dividing line but let it be recognised as temporary. Nothing's changed since the templates were written: most viewers see the raw unautoformatted text, consistency in writing is generally a good thing and ISO dates are rare in English. J IM ptalk·cont 17:10, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
 * To what good? Uniformity between text and notes means that articles which use different styles in the text cannot use the same templates (or templates must have switches, which is another set of bells and whistles on templates which are already too complex). The fundamental reason for within-article consistency is not to jar the reader with unexplained switches; moving from text to notes already changes location on the page, font, type-size - changing date style is just another. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:22, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

To what ill? It may be just another switch but it's an unnecessary one. As for the extra bells and whistles, we'll just have to deal with them ... if they are needed. However, added complexity might not even be necessary. Indeed, the templates might loose a bell, whistle or two. (with only four parameters—hardly complex), for example, could be adjusted simply by de-linking the parameter within the template. J IM ptalk·cont 17:42, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
 * A mandate makes it measurably harder to write a well-sourced article with ENGVAR-compatible date formatting in the text. That's an ill. If you can get the citation templates changed, get back to us. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:58, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, all of the current templates can handle "normal" (non-ISO) dates, but many of them are designed to prefer ISO dates, so switching over articles will be a lot of work. Hence, I support this proposal to temporarily allow the "top" and "bottom" of the article to use different date formats, which should allow for a gradual switchover.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 20:01, 27 July 2008 (UTC)


 * From above: References and footnotes should use one, consistent style for date formatting and linking.

What does "consistent" mean here? Publication and accessdates have different purposes. In the recent discussion about accessdates and, someone argued that having two dates in a footnote potentially makes it difficult for readers to identify the publication date. If that's true, having them in the same "style" is more confusing. Documentation at one of the citation templates currently suggests publication dates match the article text, but there is a long history of using ISO for accessdates. If someone uses DMY for every publication date and ISO for every accessdate, for instance, is that really a problem? Gimmetrow 21:39, 27 July 2008 (UTC)


 * There's a point. What if we replace a temporary horizontal line with a permanent diagonal one?
 * Ok, I'll need to explain this. If there are strong arguments in favour of having ISO access dates, we could keep them (but unlinked) and use for publication dates the same format as with the rest of the text. It would also reduce confusion between the two dates in individual citations. On the other hand, any concept of consistency would be significantly complicated; we should essentially have citations matching the text except for the very last part (which is also, conveniently enough, a different sentence). So, it all boils down to this: what are the arguments for and against using the ISO format for access dates? We have already heard a couple. Waltham, The Duke of 16:07, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Your Grace, I don't think ISO dates are going to disappear any time soon. Consistency within citations, and consistency in the main text, seems like a practical solution until heaven comes to earth. Tony  (talk)  10:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, I am saying quite the opposite: If we are to retain ISO dates, then we could do this: use the International or US date format in both the article's text and the publication dates of citations, and use ISO format for the access dates. Minimal change from the status quo (regarding format, not linking), and minimal change for the templates as well. Consistency throughout, with the exception of the access dates (sort of a parenthesis, really, and not present in all citations), which will be in the preferred for them format and distinguished from the publication dates (thus reducing confusion).
 * This would be a permanent solution (provided that ISO dates are also de-linked) and would require no absolute separation line between text and citations.
 * Comments? Waltham, The Duke of 16:32, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

On second thought, I see that cite web and cite news use such a formatting for publication dates (namely parentheses) that anything but ISO looks exceptionally strange. Unless some more substantial changes happen to these two templates, the—now stricken—text above is out of place. In lack of a better solution, I support the separation of text and citations in date-formatting terms. And grudgingly accept that this story is far from over... Waltham, The Duke of 16:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Are you saying a format like
 * "looks exceptionally strange" and this guideline must forbid its use? Gimmetrow 19:06, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "looks exceptionally strange" and this guideline must forbid its use? Gimmetrow 19:06, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

To all commentators, please keep this simple and keep ISO and citation complexities out of it. I started this debate because there is a mismatch between guidance (demands consistency) and the reality (tolerates inconsistency). The debates about consistency have always been about the main text only. Date formatting must be one of the most talked about and most badly handled issues on Wikipedia. Yet three formats are widely seen on the same page without significant comment. Few editors care enough about date consistency to do much about it. It is not a big deal. For now, please, just cut the scope of guidance down from whole-article to main-text. Lightmouse (talk) 10:50, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Time format
WP:MOSNUM has been cited as the guideline for writing not just the time of day, but also the time it takes to do something. This occurs in tables when the time of a winner of a race is written beside their names. I had always come to the conclusion that no guideline applied on this and had typically been writing things in 0h 0' 0" style. I'm not fussed it 0:00:00 is preferred, but I think the guideline needs to be worded to be less ambiguous. Second, if I am to use the 0:00:00 format, how would I write a time when hours or seconds aren't included? SeveroTC 19:57, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think 00:00:00 is intended to be mandatory for race timings, although it's a perfectly acceptable method. Does anybody differ? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:53, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Straw poll on unit symbol usage for the liter

 * The following introduction / overview is for the benefit of new voters to quickly bring them up to speed. Thunderbird’s original post has been moved to “Discussion” below. Be it known to all that Headbomb created this voting table. Thank you Headbomb.

All: The below straw poll regards a proposed MOSNUM guideline for the unit symbol to use for the liter and its decimal multiples and submultiples like the milliliter and microliter. The issue that started this thread was concern over the use of lowercase L (l) for the un&#x2011;prefixed liter, such as “a 10 l tank”. It is widely felt that since lowercase L (l) can be easily confused with uppercase i (I) and the numeral 1 when using sans-serif typefaces, the un&#x2011;prefixed unit symbol for liter should be only the uppercase L, (e.g., editors should write "A 10 L tank" instead of "A 10 l tank").

The primary issue to decide here is whether to also require that only the uppercase L be used for the prefixed versions (such as mL and µL) and to prohibit the use of ml and µl. One school of thought supports this view since it will bring consistency and harmony to the unit symbol in all its forms. The other school of thought is that the lowercase L (l) is approved for use by the BIPM with the SI and is still widely used. This school of thought instead proposes that either ml or mL may be used (as is currently done on Wikipedia), but whichever one is chosen must used consistently within an article (or group of articles), and further holds that ml and L should not be awkwardly mixed (e.g., editors should not write “Add 20 ml of acid to 1 L of water”.

'''Note that the below chart does not allow ~ signatures to be used. You must copy/paste or hand-edit your signature. For assistance in writing your signature, you may copy the time below in red from the preview window after refreshing while in edit mode:''' , 29 July 2024 (UTC)


 * L only: Most restrictive. This option would deprecate all lowercase l for the liter symbol; that is only forms like “2 L”, “2 mL” and “2 µL” would be permitted.
 * Liter = L only, ml or mL, don’t mix ml and L: Mid-restrictive. This option would deprecate lowercase l for the unprefixed liter (only “2 L”), would permit either ml or mL if done consistently, would not permit mixing of ml and L (for details, see the two greenbox examples shown in Discussion, below)
 * l only: Entirely different alternative: Deprecation of any and all uppercase L
 * Silence: Least restrictive. There would be no posted guideline
 * l or L, ml or mL, don't mix, same unit: No real “restrictions”: Specifies the common-sense requirement that articles should be consistent. “2 l bottle” would be permitted, and ml and L could be used in the same article.

Votes Comments
so that we (the 0.1% minority privileged registered editors) can see something nice, like either August 6, 2005 or 6 August 2005, whereas the vast majority of regular readers throughout the English-speaking planet see nothing at all so nice; they see only  2005-08-06 in body text.I just don’t think some editors here are “getting” this. Let’s say an editor codes as follows: …we registered editors, the privileged Eloi see this if we’re A) registered editors, and B) have set our user preferences setting, and C set it to the U.S. customary date format:




 * And other privileged editors see this if we’re we’re A) registered editors, and B) have set our user preferences setting, and C set it to the UK/European customary date format:




 * But… if you are 99.9% of the rest of the planet (regular I.P. users), they see the following:




 * I wasn’t aware that Wikipedia existed so editors and developers here could optimize it to produce gorgeous looking articles just for us editors and someone around here decided that everyone else (99.9% of Wikipedia’s readership) can just put up with poorly crafted text. Who blew this tool out their butt and declared it gold?!? 02:20, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Speaking of not getting it, Greg L, you're not hearing what I've said above. Instead of abolishing the tool, convincing thousands of editors to change their ways, and changing millions of articles...
 * Expand the tool. Make it so those 99.9% of Wikipedia's readership are shown the autoformatted dates.  That totally addresses your point, "fixes" the system, and does so with the minimum effort.  -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 02:31, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * What the hell are you talking about? How about a big healthy dose of climbing down from out of my butt? I heard what you said about expanding the tool. And I answered you twice on that very issue. So, yes, I heard you, and yes, I answered you. Twice (17:52, 13 August 2008 post and 21:56, 14 August 2008 post), where I said “don’t hold your breath”. And the second time I starting out by addressing you by name. And my response now is the same as before:




 * That wording comes from my 21:56, 14 August 2008 post and very similar wording can be found in my 20:26, 13 August 2008 post.


 * Again, the developer who created the tool *likes* it just fine. He or she has been asked on other occasions to fix it, but hasn’t. The developer *likes* the linking. Further, to make that tool work “equally for everyone”, that means it would have to work for non-registered I.P. users and that would require looking at the user’s I.P. address and using it to spoon-feed custom content. Such a radical, low-level feature is probably not a trivial task and would certainly require much internal discussion by the developers. So for the third time, there’s my response after “hearing” you. Got it?So instead of fallaciously claiming I’m “not hearing what” you’ve written, why don’t you A) reciprocate by actually reading my response, and B) if you  still  feel that “someone should fix it”, why don’t  you  go do the bugzilla report and see how far you get?Now the simple fact is that it is unlikely this tool will be repaired and upgraded to your liking anytime soon. In the mean time, it thoroughly junks up Wikipedia for the vast majority of users. Accordingly, editors shouldn’t be using it anymore until it is fixed.And also—in the mean time—it is clear from your above post that absolutely no one is reading and understanding what others are writing here and it is an utter and total waste of my time and effort to reason with you. You can use whatever the hell tools you want and muck up Wikipedia with useless blue links to mindless trivia to your hearts content. I’m not going to link to trivia and the articles I have a hand in will actually be better off for it. Further, if editors want to use an *autoformatting* tool such as, mistakenly thinking it produces formatted text for anyone but us editors, I can’t help it.Just don’t put rules here on MOSNUM that let’s 8th graders loose with tools that allow them to format dates (read: sometimes *formatted* poorly and always linked to mindless trivia) on professionally written articles without giving me full and proper justification for me to revert that garbage and make the reversion stick per guidelines. With that much done, I don’t give a rip what you do when you write articles.Like I said, if you want the tool fixed, please stop waiving your arms about how no one is listening to you (I did but apparently didn’t give you the response you hoped for). Just be quiet and go get the tool fixed by yourself; you’ll see first-hand just how long that will take (forever). Now I know why this forum is for dates and numbers. I couldn’t initially understand why there would be an entire forum with so much space devoted to dates? Now I know; this “date stuff” makes people… nuts!Anyway, I am thoroughly disgusted with place. So goodbye. I will absolutely no longer deal with this issue and people like you. Greg L (talk) 03:57, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Now I know; this “date stuff” makes people… nuts!


 * Well, that much is obviously true. Teemu Leisti (talk) 06:04, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The proposition to expand autodate linking is inconsistent with the sentiments of the majority of editors who have responded on the topic of autoformatting of dates. Most see no advantage to the present system for the project as a whole, and that is very close to a consensus, while a sole vote on expansion is, IMHO, "whistling in the wind." FWiW Bzuk (talk) 06:16, 15 August 2008 (UTC).


 * I think that the expansion is effectively what I was advocating earlier on this page. That there should be a formatting of dates for all users regardless of logged in or not and if they have chosen a format or not. That way there is consistency of full date format throughout an article regardless of the format that the individual dates in an article are in. Then there is no argument about which format the date should be in the text of an article as it does not matter and it does not have to be consistent either. Keith D (talk) 10:41, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I am against any expansion of auto-formatting. Please see here for some of my reasons for this opinion. Basically, we should have consistency so that people can see it, instead of promoting inconsistency and then hiding it under the rug. This proposal, Keith, sounds as if there are people who want to avoid their responsibilities (solving problems instead of running away from them), which is bizarre, given that we are all volunteers here. Besides, WP:ENGVAR works just fine. The situation is not as black as some people might paint it. Waltham, The Duke of 21:46, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Fractions - serious problem
We have a serious problem here. A lot of editor, for stylistic reasons, like to do this:

which renders as:

21&frasl;2

This is non-workable, because a copy-paste of this results in:

21⁄2

which is obviously counterfactual.

MOSNUM has to recommend that fractions be formatted one of the four following ways only:
 * Plain text, with a hyphen between the whole number and the fraction (2-1/12)
 * HTML, with a hyphen or non-breaking space between the whole number and the fraction ( or   which render respectively as 2-1&frasl;2 and 2 1&frasl;2). Furthermore, using the Unicode character for the fraction-slash instead of the character entity code is discouraged, because it makes it very difficult for many editors to tell whether the correct slash character is being used.
 * Plain text using character entities or their Unicode equivalents, where these exist – these are only available for 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 – with no hyphen or space ( which renders as 2&frac12;). Furthermore, these should not be used at all in articles that use other fractions, or in which it is plausible that future editors will use other fractions, than these three, since these will appear inconsistent with those others.
 * A  contruct (I don't know enough about that stuff to give an example here; I've never touched it).

Templates that format fractions will have to be adjusted to compensate. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93; ‹(-¿-)› 11:02, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Use frac (or unicode).  gives "$2 1/2$" which copies and pastes as "2+1⁄2".  Using spaces is not really how we write fractions and we certainly don't use hyphens, which look like minus signs. J IM ptalk·cont 11:30, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * This information seems to have been missing from the manual. I've just added it (please reword as appropriate).--Kotniski (talk) 12:46, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem here is people who cut and paste without looking at the result. That's their fault, not ours — nor the templates'. Attempting to forestall it by a sentence here enormously exaggerates the attention paid to this page; the frac should be mentioned, and with luck will actually do some good. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:41, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Centralized discussion
As suggested above, this discussion has been added to the Cent template in order to gather a wider consensus. This has been on ongoing issue for a long time now, and there have been several discussions on the matter which have been archived. I support the proposal to discourage the auto-formatting of dates, and in my experience when people have been given the explanations of the disadvantages of auto-formatting, they tend to side with discouraging its use. In my experience people only tend to be in favour of keeping auto-formatting when they are not fully aware of all the disadvantages. I do hope this proposal is carried forward and MOSNUM is re-written to clearly discourage the use of auto-formatting.  SilkTork  *YES! 12:34, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I also came here via notice from the Cent template. I've always used DA, as I figured it was the best way to avoid the wrong date format, because the dates would be displayed according to user preferences. However, I had not heard the valid argument that very few readers are actually registered users, or if they are registered users than they have not set their preferences (come to think of it, I waited well over one year to set it). Now, looking at the disadvantages (and embarassed that this thought escaped me: most readers of this encyclopedia are actually readers), I have to support the deprecation of DA. Lazulilasher (talk) 16:20, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I must say that I am against the removal of links from articles and would be against the removal of the DA or any weakening of this in the MOS. Some articles that have had the links removed that I have looked I would put the links back on but that would I am sure would end in edit wars.
 * I would rather that we seek to have a software solution implemented that allows for users to see dates in the format they wish and that a default wiki-wide or a localised format be used to present dates to those who are not registered or those who are registered and have not set their preferences. Also the display of a link or not should be controlled by user-preference, and a link to the corresponding article only made when explicitly required. May-be this could be achieved by the use of extra mark-up. It would be good if a proposal could be put together for a software change that would satisfy all camps and that could be presented to the devs with a large backing that may get them to act. Keith D (talk) 17:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that the wanton removal of date links wouldn't be best. If it were possible to have the devs work on something that could automatically format dates according to a user's location, that would be fantastic (but, I know nothing about that aspect of the project). Maybe there's something that could be implemented based on a user's ip address (again, I don't know what I'm talking about -- just an idea). My point above was that requiring of auto-format dates is not something I support. I would support their deprecation for the time being, with the caveat that we not wholesale reformat articles (as you are correct, I could forsee many edit wars). Lazulilasher (talk) 18:01, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The problem we run into is that there are two kinds of changes that can be made in Wikipedia: editor changes and developer changes – and there is no way to force the developers to make changes they’re disinclined to implement.  A number of proposals have been made that would require developer implementation, but these have not been successful.  That leaves editors with only the tools at their disposal:  encouragement or deprecation of usages via MOS.


 * I think what would satisfy most editors in this issue would be for autodates to be displayed highlighted as “links” – whether by boldface, underlining, coloration or any combination of those. It would also be great if the date display format option could be added to the menu (under “Toolbox” perhaps) for both non-registered and registered users to choose from.  Registered users would retain a default preference, but then they could switch back and forth more easily – which would remedy the problem that registered editors using a preference currently miss, namely, the ability to readily see what an article looks like to those selecting no preference.  I don't know how easy or difficult this would be to implement, though.  Askari Mark (Talk) 00:30, 10 August 2008 (UTC)


 * It may be useful if you could give links to the failed proposals so that we can see what has previously been proposed and why the developers declined to implement them. Keith D (talk) 17:45, 10 August 2008 (UTC)


 * It would indeed – and I would try to do it if I had several days to waste going back through several pages’ archives full of mile-long threads full of contentious (and often vicious) discussion like those currently on this page, going back some 3 years. Sorry.  Askari Mark (Talk) 23:18, 10 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Here's a shortlist to review.LeadSongDog (talk) 14:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks, LeadSongDog! Just for reference, there have also been discussions on the VP, the main MOS, and elsewhere, as I recall. Askari Mark (Talk) 19:04, 16 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I think the changes to date have been positive but would oppose discouraging the use of autoformatting. This choice should be left to the editors of individual articles, who are in the best position to assess the pros/cons in specific cases. I would prefer MOS to remain silent on the issue and leave it as an optional style choice. Christopher Parham (talk) 05:23, 10 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I hope that date autoformatting will eventually go away. Scripts or bots that strip out autoformatting will probably cause ill will. So I suggest that autoformatting be handled like citation templates currently are. If an article has been systematically laid out using one style, don't change it without local consensus. I would not mind if WP:MOS discouraged date autoformatting, but any removal should be gradual and should respect local sensitivities. EdJohnston (talk) 20:14, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

No consensus
The main advantage of seeking consensus regarding any issue is that in doing so, many alternatives get discussed. Have many alternatives to date-linking as a means of automatic date formatting been discussed? Where? Straw arguments like, "IP users or users who haven't set their prefs see a mish-mash" should be countered with, "Let's assign (even at random) a pref for these users so they see consistent dates." If that discussion hasn't already taken place, there can't be a true consensus on de-linking dates. (sdsds - talk) 18:07, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Tony, I think this is now the right approach, as the topic has generated a lot of interest. I agree with you that a straight forward easy to read date system makes the most sense, that is why I also favour a written out date rather than the ISO dating presently in use. FWiW, I have now begun to re-edit some of the older articles I have authored and then lack of autoformatting of dates is seen in all of my newest efforts So far, no one has complained. Bzuk (talk) 18:16, 9 August 2008 (UTC).


 * FWIW, as a result of this discussion I have now redoubled my efforts to use only wikilinked ISO dates in articles which I start or to which I contribute. (sdsds - talk) 23:16, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * On Wikipedia, "no consensus" usually means "no change from status quo", so since linking all full dates has a long history of being the de facto date formatting standard on Wikipedia, this discussion doesn't seem to give anyone justification to start (especially wholsesale) de-linking full dates. Shawisland (talk) 00:38, 10 August 2008 (UTC)


 * On wikipedia "no consensus" usually means "let's put up up with the current shit because I don't understand why anyone would want to change this best of all possible worlds". As in this case of date autoformatting. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:47, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Exactly: Shawisland assumes that "be bold" consensus is necessarily inferior to "keep it this way forever" consensus. Tony   (talk)  00:45, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Sdsds, please see MOSNUM's deprecation of ISO 8601 dates. Tony   (talk)  00:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Tony, is that an invitation to begin a discussion about why wikilinked ISO dates should become the new standard for the English language wikipedia? The guideline's assertion that they are "uncommon" in English prose assumes they will be presented to readers in that format. So perhaps un-wikilinked use of ISO dates might currently be "deprecated," although that term isn't used in the guideline. It is clear when they are wikilinked, it is only because enwiki chooses it to be so that they are shown in that format to readers who haven't expressed a preference for it. The obvious solution is to choose a format into which wikilinked dates are consistently transformed for readers who have no expressed preference, but allow readers with a preference to have them consistently transformed into the format that makes sense to them. You are of course correct that some dates shouldn't be autoformatted. Those are the only ones that shouldn't be wikilinked. (sdsds - talk) 20:01, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Consensus
My understanding of the situation, taking into account previous discussions on this and other talkpages, is that there is a consensus to discourage and or change the auto-formatting of dates - but there is no consensus to keep the existing situation. What we are looking for here is both a wider consensus and for that consensus to be grouped in one place so that there are no objections when the MOS is changed. Objections above turn to agreement when the matter is fully considered. I do recall some kind of list of signatures which it might be useful to find, which indicated concern with the autoformating system. To say that there is no consensus here is to misdirect people arriving to take part in the discussion.  SilkTork  *YES! 09:31, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi, thanks for this summary of previous discussions. Could you please indicate where those discussions can be read? I have no desire to "misdirect", and certainly apologize if I have inadvertently done so. I share the general concern about the current autoformatting system. Is there someplace a proposal like the one I have floated (choosing a format arbitrarily for readers who haven't expressed a preference) has been discussed. If that discussion hasn't taken place yet, it may be premature to assert a well-reasoned consensus has been reached on the question! (sdsds - talk) 20:06, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I've responded on Sdsds's talk page with the link to the notorious Bugzilla page. Tony   (talk)  05:28, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Proposal
As I have pointed out many times in the past, in spelled out dates, the distinction between the order being labelled by nationalities is at best weak, at worst fallacious. It has been suggested that the simplest solution is to adopt one preferred format fro spelled out dates, NN Month YYYY, or Month NN Year, it would be trivial to adopt this, and simple to impelment and probably not cause anyone any concern. Therefor in the next section I make such a proposal. Rich Farmbrough, 21:26 15 August 2008 (GMT).

Proposal
While any unambiguous date is acceptable fromeditors at large, the MoS should recommend either
 * NN month YYYY or where space is limited, the ISO format YYYY-MM-DD

Rich Farmbrough, 21:26 15 August 2008 (GMT).


 * No, we should not. We have already decided against this; it violates WP:ENGVAR. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:42, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Why should it do that? To prevent American editors being confused by the international format? I think Tony has said many times that we're all quite able to understand either April 29, or 29 April. But what does 2008-03-04 mean? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 21:32, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * More likely to ensure that American readers are confused. Both will stand out like a sore thumb in a passage of idiomatic American. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:52, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * They certainly will, it's an absurd suggestion. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 21:56, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Americans constitute an important part of our readership (and editing body), and their primary date format, unusual as it otherwise is, should be respected. (Besides, it's as clear as the international one, so there are no readability problems there.) I oppose this proposal. Waltham, The Duke of 22:05, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm opposed to this idea. WP has matured to manage the largely binary system of spelling superbly well, with robust and workable guidelines. There is absolutely no reason that our guidelines for the (raw formatting of) binary date-formatting system don't work equally well. In both cases—lexicogrammatical and date formats—management of the binary system requires a little planning and checking. We should be planning and checking everything. Tony   (talk)  23:53, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure that this an ideal solution. I agree with Tony that the dual spelling system works well. However, it should be pointed out that the US military uses dd Month yyyy. I'm also pretty sure that not even one US reader would be "confused" by that format. --Elliskev 01:13, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Oppose—The adoption of one preferred format would by no means be trivial, simple to impelment or cause no concern. The fact is that there'll never be agreement over which this preferred format should be ... we might as well wait for the autoformatting to be fixed. J IM ptalk·cont 03:01, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your comment, Jim. May I point out that your last clause was intended to be ironic (cf, wait till the cows come home)? I had to read it twice to work it out. Tony   (talk)  04:09, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
 * ... home to the icy wastelands of Hades. J IM ptalk·cont 05:05, 16 August 2008 (UTC) ... singin' Dixie. J IM ptalk·cont 05:08, 16 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I think it should be as it is now - American subjects (or those where American date format is used, such as Canada, the Philippines, Taiwan etc) use American dates, subjects in countries which use international date format use international format, and with others where either is possible, consistency is to be observed regardless of the format adopted. As long as the full variety of the month is used, this should never be ambiguous, and should keep most readers happy. Orderinchaos 08:17, 16 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Whilst either format is acceptable - newspapers around the world tend to use American Dating and the world hasn't fallen apart (well, maybe it has, but not because of date formats) - editors are going to prefer one format over another and we would get some bitter disputes. As we have had in the past. The current system works, we manage inernationalisation issues in other things such as spelling and units of measurement well, and unless there's some technical solution on the horizon, we should keep things as they are. --Pete (talk) 11:33, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

The present arrangement is almost perfect and should not changed including the dualistic co-habitation of both date styles: ''In June 2005, the Arbitration Committee ruled that when either of two styles such as 14 February or February 14 is acceptable, it is inappropriate for an editor to change an article from one style to another unless there is a substantial reason to do so. Edit warring over optional styles is unacceptable. If an article has been stable in a given style, it should not be converted without a style-independent reason. Where in doubt, defer to the style used by the first major contributor.'' See: Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)--Thomaq (talk) 16:03, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

No, I disagree with this proposal. Long-standing convention on this page in this respect is fine. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 03:11, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd like to point out that the problem would not lie with just American users being disconcerted with reading them. After all, they'll be inputting dates as well, and ISO or no ISO, it will be a natural habit for them to mistakenly enter the numerical digits in American date order, which will cause problems all around. Askari Mark (Talk) 18:19, 18 August 2008 (UTC)


 * It doesn't matter if people input dates in any format. The MoS is not a constraint on editors, it is designed to be something to which WP can move, giving a better result for all the reasons a MoS is usually used. Let me stress both formats are extensively used in most places, this has been portrayed as US vs international - it is not. Similarly with spelling and punctuation, we don't castigate editors or have flame wars  over such things, just quietly and quickly bring them into line with the WP way. Rich Farmbrough, 15:37 20 August 2008 (GMT).

Another proposal
Reading the discussion above, it seems that some people think that (a) producing links from auto-formatted dates is bad because it results in lots of unneeded links from dates, and that (b) defaulting the autoformatting to ISO-standard is bad because that format is confusing to most readers.

I agree with both of these points. However, I think autoformatting dates is useful, so that people can see the dates in the format they prefer; and that for inputting the dates, the ISO standard is the best solution, since it makes dates easily searchable in articles.

Therefore I propose the following solution, which would (1) deprecate date-linking while (2) preserving auto-formatting and (3) making the default formatting understandable to the average person.

If the year is unnecessary or repetitive, it would also be possible for users to input only the month and the day-of-month. The output would, again, depend on the user's settings, and the default output for the non-logged-in would be readable.

However, it would be mandatory to input dates in ISO format, either as yyyy-mm-dd  or as  mm-dd , depending on whether the year is specified or not.

(Table inspired by the one by Greg L in section "Autoformat quick-question" above.) Teemu Leisti (talk) 06:40, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think this would work... First of all, the ISO format is confusing for many people, and the fact that it would only be visible in the edit window does not help things. We call on our readers to be bold and edit, don't we? We don't want to confuse them even more than they already are. :-) And, in any case, much of our readership resides in the United States, and they wouldn't like seeing a default international date format.
 * All that said, even if it gains consensus as an idea, it remains unlikely to be applied. Apart from the clearly undesirable links, there are several issues with auto-formatting, including its inability to handle date ranges and slashed dates. We need more sophistication for anything like this to work. Waltham, The Duke of 09:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I see your point. Just one quibble: the default display format in my proposal would be 29 December 2012, which should be understandable to everybody.  Teemu Leisti (talk) 07:33, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

There's much talk of extending/improving the system. Here's the sorry truth. We can't fix the autoformatting. We've tried asking for it to be fixed on several occasions. The requests have been ignored. It appears that the creators of this mess believe it to be good. Here's a notion: if you want it fixed, why not boycot this autoformatting; that might get their attention? J IM ptalk·cont 11:56, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, in that case there's really no sense in expending any more energy on this question. Teemu Leisti (talk) 07:33, 18 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Hey Teemu, thanks for your good work in preparing that case (I'll be needing to learn how to construct exactly that type of table, so this will be a model for me). As for the content, I'm sorry to say that I think it's too complicated and not intuitive—imagine having to teach every existing WP and every newbie how to key in and what is rendered. And again, there's no problem in the first place. Nothing beats WYKIWYG: What You Key in Is What You Get. Plain, intuitive, and simple, both for us and all of our readers. Tony   (talk)  12:29, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * You're welcome. Perhaps you and Jimp are right, and we should just give up linking dates altogether. Teemu Leisti (talk) 07:33, 18 August 2008 (UTC)


 * As I've mentioned before, during the several times I've seen this debate rage, the general consensus has been that the best solution is one which the only the developers can implement. It sure would be informative to have one of them explain here why they cannot or will not. Askari Mark (Talk) 18:14, 18 August 2008 (UTC)


 * This proposal becomes a horrible mess for any date before 14 September 1752. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 18:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Large numbers
According to Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers), commas are used to break the sequence every three places left of the decimal point; spaces or dots are never used in this role (2,900,000, not 2 900 000).

However, according to three−digit groups in numbers with more than four digits are separated by thin spaces instead of commas (for example, 299 792 458, not 299,792,458) to avoid confusion with the decimal marker in European literature.
 * AIP ,
 * NIST ,
 * English Style Guide. A handbook for authors and translators in the European Commission (page 26),

Taking into account inherently international character of Wikipedia, should this rule be applied to MoS as well? --texnic (talk) 16:28, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * ISO 31-0 also refers to a 'small space' for that purpose. Lightmouse (talk) 16:58, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I prefer the thin space but only if it vanishes on copy & paste, doesn't wrap, can be produced with a parser function, appears properly on the vast majority of machines and would be applied WP-wide. As for European literature, though, just about the only subset we need worry about is that from the British Isles, ie.e that in English, where we never use the dot as a thousands marker nor the comma as a decimal point. J IM ptalk·cont 17:44, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * This has been discussed at length in the past. No consensus coud be raised to use thin spaces. Even if there was the illusion of a consensus among the editors of this page, it would be unenforceable. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 18:23, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Can we allow use of spaces as decimal separators without making it a strict rule? The point is that if one writes a new article and knows that there are the above mentioned recommendations and is accustomed to them, why should s/he still use the old-style notation? --texnic (talk) 15:13, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Linking to years, again
I am having a disagreement with another editor over the implementation of the de-linking years in articles, in one specific context: in the lead of a biographical article, where the practice has been -- & AFAIK still is -- to link the years of the subject's birth & death. Even if the month & day are not known. As in this fictitious example:


 * Harvey J. Wallbanger (1940 - 1995) was an American activist for Alcoholics Anonymous.

Now I've looked through the MoS, & it does not offer any guidance about this specific use of link. Then again, I can't imagine that no one has considered this specific use of linking to years, & that a consensus has been stated somewhere. (My hope, obviously, is that the consensus is one that I would agree with.) Thanks for the pointer. -- llywrch (talk) 06:14, 18 August 2008 (UTC)


 * [WP:CONTEXT makes it quite clear: "In general, do not create links to [low added-value items] such as, 1995, 1980s, and 20th century." WP:MOSLINK and WP:MOS are consonant with this. Tony   (talk)  09:03, 18 August 2008 (UTC) PS I can't locate this article you refer to.  Tony   (talk)  09:09, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Either this person is fictitious, or there is an interesting story to find here; my search has yielded a cocktail with that name. :-) Waltham, The Duke of 11:54, 18 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I seem to remember this issue as partly about 'aesthetic linking'. People sometimes like to link date fragments because there is an associated full date with a link. I think some people like 'aesthetic linking' in tables and lists too.
 * Harvey J. Wallbanger (1940 - 12 March 1995) was an American activist for Alcoholics Anonymous.
 * Harvey J. Wallbanger (1940 - 12 March 1995) was an American activist for Alcoholics Anonymous.
 * I am not aware of any other reason and I think I would know if there were. Lightmouse (talk) 13:04, 18 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Perhaps a more interesting story is that of Harvey Wallbanger Jr, the famous racing buffalo. But we digress.  Biographies normally use  Template:Infobox Person with a nested template for tombstone dates.  See Template:Infobox_Person.  They should be and usually are templated, so autoformat shouldn't kick in.  LeadSongDog (talk) 15:38, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, the templates produce autoformatted (i.e linked) dates, so I guess it does kick in. When date linking is finally deprecated, these date templates will hopefully be changed to remove the linking.--Kotniski (talk) 16:44, 18 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The above was meant only as an example, not as the article in question. (Please note my words "as in this fictitious example". I am amazed none of you noticed those words, & will refrain from any further observation or comments on it.) Either the practice of linking birth & death dates -- even if only the year is known -- is permitted in all lead paragraphs, nor none. -- llywrch (talk) 16:08, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * llywrch, please note that the comments above were intended as jests, not to be taken seriously. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 16:23, 18 August 2008 (UTC).
 * I don't care. Good bye. -- llywrch (talk) 21:37, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Full date formatting
The major reason for insisting on two date formats is for compliance with autoformatting. If autoformatting is not going to be used then providing editors are consistent in an article, most of the other prescriptions on dates can go as well:

For example there is no reason why one should not write:
 * The Battle of Hastings was fought on the 14th of October 1066.
 * The Battle of Hastings was fought on October the 14th, 1066.
 * The Battle of Hastings was fought on the 14th of October 1066.
 * The Battle of Hastings was fought on October the 14th, 1066.
 * The Battle of Hastings was fought on 1066-10-14.
 * The Battle of Hastings was fought on 14/10/1066.

After all the arguments recently expressed on this page for removing autoformatting that readers can understand both the format "October 14, 1066" and the format "14 October, 1066" is equally true for the other formats. To accommodate the concerns those editors who do not agree, it could be suggested in this guideline, that a footnote explaining the format should be inserted next to the first date -- as is done with Old Style dates. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 10:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The first ones to strike are #3 and #4; unnecessary superscripted text is discouraged because it makes reading harder and poses accessibility concerns. We then move on to Nos. 5 and 6, which are highly ambiguous because they do not spell out the month, causing confusion to European and North American readers alike (and yes, that includes the ISO format, with which not all readers are familiar—far from it). That leaves us with the first two, which constitute sloppy writing for reasons I am sure the honourable colleagues here can analyse better than I can. Even so, it's more or less common knowledge that these little words (the and of) fell in disuse quite a long time ago, and are hardly anywhere to be seen in written text, less so in a formal register like the one we use in an encyclopaedia. This doesn't apply exclusively to dates, but can also be seen in offices and titles like Director, Royal College, London. The ofs and thes are added mentally while reading such a title, but they don't have to be written, and are routinely omitted in text.
 * In any case, I don't find getting rid of auto-formatting a reason to abandon consistency in date-writing. Such consistency is one of the elements of good writing, and contributes to a more professional appearance for articles. Compromising this in order to introduce a needlessly complicated system, involving such additional clutter for intros like footnotes we could do without, does not sound like a good idea.
 * PS: You've slipped up: 14 October, 1066 is not a format—not with the comma, anyway. Waltham, The Duke of 10:22, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * So do you also object to "The Battle of Hastings was fought on 14th October 1066"? --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 11:29, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Predictably enough, I do. Waltham, The Duke of 13:42, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Why? --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 15:04, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I have mentioned both ofs and thes, have I not? Waltham, The Duke of 21:59, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * #1 and #2 are highly formal; but that may be desirable on occasion: either would do well in the lead, and the form works well in the colophon ("The chief effect of Harald Hardraadi's long and turbulent life was felt after his death in a place he had never been: the Battle of Hastings, on the 14th of October 1066.") We do not, and should not, adhere to a single monotonous level, imitating the worst of the Britannica's writing.
 * We are not going to be consistent in date-writing. To say nothing of the practical matter that most articles will not comply with this page or care about it, we will encourage the use of two styles, radically and obviously different. Why jib at four?
 * It would be worth warning editors that 14th is often seen as old-fashioned; that "14th of October" is highly formal, and should only be used where the effect is intended; and that ISO can be confusing. Having deprecated them thus, is there any point to a prohibition? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:08, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * There are many ways to make an article boring, Mr Anderson, from which no variation in date formats can save it. There is engaging text, and there is annoying inconsistency; the former makes reading an article more worthwhile, while the latter simply distracts readers.
 * That we have not achieved consistency does not mean that we should not pursue it. We use two date formats because it is the minimum that can be achieved; each is the principal format for one of the two main components of our readership, and the two formats combined cover all English-speaking readers. We need no more formats.
 * Any style-related guidance of this kind is still a part of the Manual of Style, which is a guideline. It's optional to follow it, and using terms like "prohibition" creates the erroneous impression that it isn't. We don't block editors for using superscripted numbers. Waltham, The Duke of 13:42, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I have always agreed that we should be consistent within an article. We will not be consistent between articles, and I would be surprised if a reader would be disconcerted by the change. He is not left with an unexplained inconsistency; she knows why it happened; xe clicked on a link. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:40, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Let's drop the "little words" like "on" entirely: Or alternately, let's allow editors to choose the number of "little words" as they see fit: These suggestions are not attempts at being silly. As we think about deprecating autoformatting, we really ought to think through the variations in formatting that will naturally arise (and be the subject of disputes). (sdsds - talk) 16:14, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The Battle of Hastings was fought 1066-10-14.
 * The Battle of Hastings was fought on the fourteenth day of October in A.D. 1066.


 * I support the latter. We are a collaboration; we should not go to enormous and fruitless effort to read like we aren't  one. The wording of WP:ENGVAR could be usefully adapted, or we could just say leave well enough alone.  Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:40, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * We are a collaboration with the aim of taking articles to a specific standard of quality; the community has everything to do with the effort of taking the articles there, but this does not mean that the community should make its presence felt in the finished product. A featured article should avoid, if possible, every reference to itself, Wikipedia, and its community. Using writing formats incompatible with crisp, formal, encyclopaedic register just for the sake of doing so is ridiculous. And there need be no disputes if the guidelines of the Manual of Style are followed, guidelines the validity of which some people insist on undermining despite the need for them and the consensus upholding them. Waltham, The Duke of 21:59, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with the principle stated. None of these (first four, or th), however, is incompatible with a "crisp, formal, encyclopaedic register", and banning Ye Fourteeneth of Octobre is WP:BEANS. ;-> Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:08, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Hehe, good one. :-D But if all that the story's mother had said to her child was "behave yourself", he'd have fewer ideas to work with in the first place. We just need to state which styles we accept; leave it to the others to consider whether their own little ideas contradict the guideline or not. Waltham, The Duke of 22:30, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * No, what we need to do is treat our fellow editors like adults; say that this style and that one have disadvantages, and let them decide, based on what they happen to be writing, whether euphony or emphasis warrant the dangers. No one died and left us Jimbo's inheritance; to accept or refuse styles, or to belittle other editors' ideas. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:38, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * An orchestra cannot work without someone conducting, even with the mots experienced musicians. The same goes here: adults still need to be directed, and the greater the numbers, the more intense this need is. No matter how intelligent our editors are, without direction, chaos will ensue. (Actually, the more intelligent they are, the more bikesheds we'll end up quarrelling over.) Waltham, The Duke of 16:01, 18 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The first four examples above all seem quite compatible with crisp, formal, encyclopedic register. Depending on context, the two examples you disdain will often permit better-reading parallel structure. The example you give ("Director, Royal College, London") would be rather unusual in normal written prose; it would be "He was director of the Royal College" not "He was director, Royal College". Christopher Parham (talk) 22:42, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

It's so simple: "DD Month YYYY" or "Month DD, YYYY" (and maybe "YYYY-MM-DD" in certain specific cases) with the choice determined by ENGVAR-like rules. Nobody's belittling anyone: those who'd rather see "The Battle of Hastings was fought on the fourteenth day of October in the one thousand and sixty-sixth year of our L ORD ." are just as free as anyone else to come and see how their argument stands against the very reasonable call for consistancy such as that we see from Waltham. J IM ptalk·cont 02:50, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Most solutions which begin with "it's so simple" are overlooking a large part of the problem. This is no exception. The four formats PBS began with are largely useful for special purposes; but they are useful for those purposes, and should not be deprecated for a spurious "consistancy". (Even ISO is sometimes useful; that's why it exists.) We should normally use the two formats Jimp prefers, but there is no reason to forbid the others.  Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:33, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand this proposal; I thought we don't use ordinal suffixes on dates at all, so what is the proposal? Sandy Georgia (Talk) 03:08, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, starting from the premise that consistancy is worth striving for where feasible it does become simple. Is the premise spurious?  If so, much of the MOS can be deleted. J IM ptalk·cont 10:42, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * As I said at the start of this section: "The major reason for insisting on two date formats is for compliance with autoformatting. If autoformatting is not going to be used then providing editors are consistent in an article, most of the other prescriptions on dates can go as well." Your argument Jimp leads to total consistence across the project because it is feasible to implement such a style and spelling policy, but many would ague it is not desirable. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 10:48, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, saw the claim at the top, repeated here ("The major reason for insisting on two date formats is for compliance with autoformatting.") I question that this was the case, Philip. And which came first, the chicken or the egg—the autoformatting mechanism that some developer cooked up or the rationale that the minimum number of formats the project needed to avoid significant disgruntlement was the big two, US and international? In any case, I think the project has moved on from whatever happened then. Dates, like spelling, seem to have happily evolved as a largely binary system in the main text. (Sure, the use of ISO dates in reference lists probably needs to be talked through over the next six to 12 months as we review the cohesion of the citation and other templates). But I think almost all WPians are content with US vs international dates, and would see no reason to engineer chaos in the absence of the double square brackets. Why would anything need to change? Tony   (talk)  11:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't see any advantage in letting loose and allowing whatever format whoever wants. Dates stripped of the thes, sts/nds/rds/ths and ofs are working fine. An argument for ISO dates is that they save space and are of consistant number of characters. An alternative we could use in lists/tables/etc. would be ordinar dates with the month abbreviated to three letters. Even the creators of autoformatting thought of this. J IM ptalk·cont 16:21, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * It is not our business to allow or disallow what our fellow editors choose to do; it is our business to advise what the consensus does do. If it were our business, it would be silly to issue an (unenforceable) blanket prohibition, ignoring all consideration of tone or euphony. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:29, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Our business is to provide advice to those who should request it. If editors ask us "Should we use superscripted ths in text?", we advise them not to. If they don't like this advice, they shouldn't have asked for it, but they are free to ignore it. If they are unaware of the guideline, they are still free to continue their blissful ignorance. Terms like "blanket prohibition" are meaningless when a guideline is concerned, especially considering that "ignore all rules" is policy. Of course the individual needs of an article should be taken into account, but consistency has undeniable merits. This might be an international encyclopaedia, but it's still one encyclopaedia. It should also look like one. Waltham, The Duke of 16:01, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Has anyone noticed how Wiki dates our contributions after the signature? Let's see... Saintmesmin (talk) 19:13, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Date linking: User:Tony1
Tony1 (talk · contribs) is going through articles and using some sort of script to unlink all full dates in the article. He includes WP:MOSNUM in his edit summary, yet as far as I can see, there is nothing to say dates should no longer be linked. In addition, the usual guideline is not to change the format of dates except to make an aticle consistent, and I would have thought linking is covered by this policy too. Any comments or suggestions of how to proceed would be welcome.  J Rawle  (Talk) 09:29, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The user has replied to me and explained why he feels dates should no longer be linked. It seems reasonable to me.  J Rawle  (Talk) 11:18, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I take issue with it too. Tony's scripted changes today to Battle of Arras (1917) (a WP:FA) were rather abrupt to say the least.  At a minimum, if he's going to do this, I'd expect edit summaries that link directly to an explanation without requiring a degree in forensics. LeadSongDog (talk) 16:16, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I wasn't aware that an edit summary could link. Are you sure? If so, it's quite possible. Tony   (talk)  00:15, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * “Change” on Wikipedia, is never easy. Thank God for Tony1’s efforts in seeing this issue through to its natural conclusion. Auto-formatted dates should not be linked. And in my opinion, everyone should just forget worrying about what registered editors see and simply hard-code these *formats* straight to the default view that 99.9% of Wikipedia’s readers (non-registered readers) see: the last column in this table, which backhands the vast majority of our readership with the label “What *others* will see”. And as for that bottom option (coded ), we might as well loose that one since 99.9% of Wikipedia’s readership sees only the ugly all-numeric, hand-coded input format. Greg L (talk) 03:18, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * GregL, we should change what 99.9% of Wikipedia’s readership sees; we should not change the underlying coding of the dates. (sdsds - talk) 03:29, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Sd, I appreciate your desire to retain a programming functionality, but I think you're way too optimistic in your expectations of technical improvements over at WikiMedia, especially something as major as the introduction of some IP-based system; in any case, geographical IP regions don't precisely map onto date-formatting usage.
 * Also, I don't think you've addressed the most basic issue: is the month–day/day–month order worth giving more than five seconds of your talent and energy to? Was it ever a problem in the first place? Let's rejoice in the amazing degree of homogeneity in our language, despite its geographical dispersion and the lack of a centralised authority such as the French language endures.
 * WYKIWYG (What You Key in Is What You Get) is the safest, simplest solution, allowing editors to retain local control and most easily check for inconsistencies and inappropriate choices (surprisingly common); on its side is the convenient fact that it takes less work, scrutiny and induction of newbies, not more. I'm all for templates and toys where their advantages clearly outweigh their disadvantages, but DA is not one of them. Let's allow (high-value) wikilinking to breath a little easier in our text displays.  Tony   (talk)  04:25, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Tony, we both know we disagree on this. There is only a small change required to show arbitrarily formated dates to the "99.9%" who don't see them now. (We don't need to attempt to guess at an anon reader's preference. Any consistent format would be fine.)
 * You think WYKIWYG is "safest", and I'm willing to let you key in (new) dates without the wikilinking you dislike. I am among the many, however, who object to your script-based wholesale rewriting of dates that strips them of the markup that allows them to be auto-formatted. If you were to do this to articles where I had used wikilinked ISO dates, I would feel justified reverting your changes, because there is no consensus about this.
 * To address your "most basic issue": yes, enabling wikipedia content to be viewed in ways that match per-user or per-article style preferences is worth much more than five seconds of my effort. For example, I would be overjoyed to extend this mechanism to include pounds versus kilograms, as I grow weary of seeing convert everywhere. Heck, I would like to extend it to allow kilometer or kilometre, at the user's preference! Enwiki should move forward with this kind of functionality, not backwards! (sdsds - talk) 04:45, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Question for sdsds: How would you prefer to write, in the wiki edit box, the following dates from Gregorian Reform of the Calendar published by the Vatican Observatory in 1983 and edited by Coyne, Hoskin, and Pedersen (p. 219):
 * On 11 February, 1582 Sirleto sent Antonio Giglio to Mondragone, the villa outside Rome where the Rome preferred to stay whenever he could, and there the Pope signed the bull on 24 February, 1582.
 * Please assume you are paraphrasing the sentence and so are not obliged to keep the same format as the original. What, if any, remarks would you include about the dates? --Gerry Ashton (talk) 05:39, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Another question for sdsds: how is it possible to deduce from a reader's IP what preference he has for pounds over kilograms? Kilometre vs. kilometer possibly, to some extent, but is there really any benefit compared with the complications involved? And in any case, the main issue is the mass linking of dates - there seems to be clear consensus against that. If the developers want to spend time working on autoformatting for IP users, then at the same time they can make it independent of the linking. As it is, removing the linking affects autoformatting only for an infinitesimal percentage of readers, while improving the presentation for everyone, so I still see no valid argument against doing it.--Kotniski (talk) 06:36, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Tony, going back to edit summaries, I agree that it should link to an explanation of why you are unlinking dates, rather than to WP:MOSNUM. The latter doesn't have anything about proposals to unlink dates, which was that threw me in the first place yesterday. If you link to one of the excellent, detailed explanations you have written about the issue, that woud be much more helpful. Some people will still disagree, but others may well be persuaded by your arguments. It would do more to promote what you are doing. At present, editors who have never seen the debates on this talk page will see you've stripped all the links from an article they contribute to, and to them it may seem to be some sort of unilateral action without any discussion.

Edit summaries can certainly be linked. I use linked summaries quite often. See this one from today:. Also, tools such as navigation popups often include a link to themselves in the edit summary. The (fairly recently added) edit summary preview also shows whether the link is going to work properly.  J Rawle  (Talk) 11:29, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * JRawle—very good advice, which I shall heed. Tony   (talk)  11:55, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Responding to User:Gerry Ashton: MOSNUM is a guideline, so the advice that, "Editors should follow it, except where common sense and the occasional exception will improve an article" is likely applicable in the test case you mention. In this case, or in any case where dates might be "special", the specific advice in MOSNUM simply does not apply. MOSNUM should give advice for the "standard" case of a date that involves no particular trickery. (Had the dates not related to this special case of the Gregorian calendar, MOSNUM should advise you to code the sentence as, "Sirleto sent Giglio to Mondragone 1582-02-11, and the Pope signed the bull 1582-02-24." This would be rendered: "Sirleto sent Giglio to Mondragone 1582-02-11, and the Pope signed the bull 1582-02-24." Even in this tricky test case any user clicking on a linked 1582 learns about the, "Gregorian Calendar switch" which is mentioned at the top of the page for that year.)

Responding to User:Kotniski: You perhaps have me confused with some other contributor to this discussion. I do not advocate trying to guess at what format might be preferable to a non-logged-in user. Except for logged-in users who have specified a date format preference, I advocate choosing an arbitrary format, and consistently presenting all dates marked for autoformatting to that chosen format. Same for spelling, or any other variation based on user preference: if the user hasn't specified one, enwiki should arbitrarily choose a varition so as to present a consistent article. (sdsds - talk) 21:37, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

date-mess uncovered
The removal of autoformatting in Plug-in hybrid, which is featured article and a good read, uncovered an unholy mess of international and US raw formats that our readers have been viewing for who knows how long. The diff also shows a mistake in the syntax of the autoformating of an ISO date in the refs (2008-6-16).

I've left a note on the article talk page asking editors to decide which format is most appropriate using our guidelines at MOSNUM as a basis, and offering to assist if required. Tony  (talk)  11:50, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Would it not make sense before undertaking a larger effort to strip date linking as to have a bot/script attempt to convert dates to a specific format (would need a manual input to select between "Month Day, Year", and "Day Month Year") such that what are inconsistencies from older FAC articles would be convert automagically, but dropping warnings on the talk page when a date is in a format it cannot parse? I understand requesting manual help for these testing-the-waters cases, but if taken to a mass level, leaving a large number of articles with inconsistent dates that need to be fixed is going to take a lot more effort. --M ASEM  13:33, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Your question has two parts: Regards Lightmouse (talk) 15:34, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Part 1: Is it possible for automated support to assist with the conversion of all dates in an article to one format?
 * Answer = Yes. The code is fairly simple. False positives and misses are foreseeable so it would be best with human oversight.
 * Part 2: Would such automated support be needed before date links are stripped?
 * Answer = No. It is an entirely independent issue.

RFC on September 11, 2001 attacks
Talk:September 11, 2001 attacks - We need outside opinions on what the appropriate grammar is here. Should the page title and the article start out with "September 11, 2001 attacks" (no comma) or "September 11, 2001, attacks"? A third option is to rename the page to something like "September 11 attacks". We would appreciate comments on the article talk page. Thanks. --Aude (talk) 20:13, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * With regard to “The September 11, 2001 attacks…”, it’s clear what it means without the comma before the word “attacks”. It seems terribly awkward and improper to me to write “The September 11, 2001, attacks…”. As for what the *formal* rule is, by daughter could answer that (she’s damned good), but she’s not here now. I see no reason to rename the article. Greg L (talk) 20:21, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It's clumsy with or without the comma. I would follow idiom: September 11 attacks, if the various forms of 9-11 aren't dignified enough for us. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:25, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comma after "attack" is awful. Either "September 11, 2001 attacks" or Anderson's option. Tony   (talk)  00:32, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, the term "9-11" has entered the lexicon of the event and at least some acknowledgment of this date name is necessary, although I would put it in quotation marks once and then use an appropriate written out date convention thereafter, e.g. "September 11, 2001". FWiW Bzuk (talk) 12:10, 21 August 2008 (UTC).
 * The first words of the 9/11 Commission's report (500+ page PDF) are "THE 9/11 COMMISSION REPORT" so 9/11 must be regarded as an official term for the attack. Although I cannot find a reliable source to confirm my memory, I recall that the air pirates were reported to have chosen the date of the attack because of the similarity of the numeric date to the phone number used in the US to summon emergency help (911). So it is not a matter of having entered the lexicon, it was a deliberate choice of the air pirates from the very beginning. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 18:18, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Is that the actual origin of the 9-11 use? It's certainly an interesting historical footnote if it's true and should be mentioned somewhere in the article. My point is that the use of the date has been morphed into "9-11" rather than the actual date. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 18:24, 21 August 2008 (UTC).
 * It's one of several theories. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:48, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Date formatting: why isn't this done with a template?
I've wondered for years: why is date formatting accomplished entirely by "smart" code rather than by a template? For example, if we had something like which could also recognize forms like  and, then format (as now) based on user preference, but which would provide one single format as the default for everybody not logged in (e.g. "4 July 1776") it would seem infinitely more straightforward than the present magic. It could also deal well with year being optional, and could even be made smart enough to deal with date ranges (e.g. could be shown, depending on preferences, as "4-7 July 1776" or "July 4-7, 1776"). - Jmabel | Talk 17:10, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Jmabel, with regard to this: “[the template would] then format (as now) based on user preference, but which would provide one single format as the default for everybody not logged”, that’s the way it currently works—there is one single default for *common folk* (99.9% of Wikipedia’s readership). And one format in particular,, defaults to 2005-05-15 for 99.9% of our readership instead of showing the pretty May 15, 2005 some of us privileged editors like to see.I think it’s best if all us editors get over this notion that we are doing any measure of good by creating and using tools that are intended to improve the user experience for us editors (0.1% of Wikipedia’s readership), and which just gives a default view for “everybody else”. We editors should always be looking at precisely what everyone else is seeing.Many editors have suggested we simply improve the templates and magic words so they can benefit I.P. users too. But this would require parser functions and wholesale changes to the way Wikipedia’s servers work in the background to gather the requesting readers’ I.P. address, then match those to a database to determine which country they reside in, and spoon-feed content based on their country’s customary practices. That might happen (or maybe not), but it would likely be a year or more before we saw such a radical change. I wouldn’t hold my breath.In the mean time, to paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld, we must make do with the editing tools currently available to us. The current tools A) produce Easter-egg links to mindless trivia that is almost always unrelated to the topic, and B) delude editors here into thinking pretty looking date formats are being produced for our readership. It is high time these tools be abandoned. If we’ve got a crappy-ass Mark 14 torpedo that circles around and blows up the person who shot it, you simply avoid using that tool until you are provided something better. Greg L (talk) 19:50, 20 August 2008 (UT


 * There already is the template Date that can take any format and emit it as e.g. "20 August 2008". Should the automatic date formatting be fixed at some point so that IP users will get a consistant formatting (no matter wich), the template could be changed accordingly without much ado. If Tony1 keeps unlinking dates though, which I oppose, then a change like that will mean that all those dates will have to be manually tagged again (can't be an automatic process due to ambiguity). I could live with all dates being wrapped into the aforementioned template though. -- Amalthea Talk 20:31, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Amalthea, Date is still another tool (that thankfully doesn’t link to trivia), that seems intended only to stop editwarring between editors by pacifying them with a format they are pleased to look at. That strikes me as nothing more than an attitude of “I don’t give a dump what 99.9% of our readership sees just as long as I don’t have to look at some other asshole’s method of writing out dates.” I reject that attitude as childish. It also condemns Wikipedia’s current policies for determining when a consensus has been arrived at and how to resolve conflict. To placate editors in the face of these dispute-resolution shortcomings, silly tools for just us were developed.We editors should always be looking at precisely what unregistered readers see.Further, as far as I can see, hand-coding dates produces better results than the template.Why? Check this out: if I use the template to code  in order to generate Jan 15, 2001, the template-generated version currently word-wraps between the “Jan” and the “15” (something I assumed it wouldn’t). My hand-generated dates don’t do this because I use a non-breaking space. Yes, I know that detail could be fixed in the code for the template, but that’s a secondary issue. It is utterly beyond me how anyone around here got it into their heads that we are making Wikipedia a better place by making tools that produce what we registered editors enjoy seeing but just provide a standard default for *others* (read: pretty much everyone); editors should just write out dates. This Date tool reminds me of putting horse blinders on two fourth-grade boys who can’t get along when they are sitting next to each other in class. MOSNUM has plenty or rules for the date formats that would be most suitable for various articles; we editors don’t have to be so damned intolerant that we make tools just so we get to see precisely what we want to see. Greg L (talk) 21:18, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * You are wrong. If you had taken a look at date you'd know that it *always* emits dates in the format "20 August 2008" at the moment, but is prepared to display it formatted by user preferences or "using some sane and human-friendly default when a user is not-logged-in or when no date-style preference has been set" once MediaWiki has the capabilities to do so. I repeat, users that are not logged in or don't have a preference set will at the moment see the same as any other logged in user, and once a better date autoformatting feature is implemented it can be changed so that those 99.9% you mention will still see consistant dates (of whichever format is decided upon, I doubt that there'll be IP based guesses soon). Concerning the non breaking space: I agree that this should be fixed. I am also sure that wrapping dates into some kind of automatic formatting (the date template, for lack of a better one) can make sure that dates will *consistently* get those nbsps. Again, I'm convinced that the script assisted edits Tony is making right now are among the worst solutions for this problem (and I have yet to find the consensus he mentions) since all he accomplishes is to loose the meta information that makes a fix for it easier in the future, and he leaves the articles in just the inconsistent state he encountered them. If it stays wrapped in a template, a bot can implement a better solution should there ever come one to pass. Cheers, Amalthea Talk 21:41, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I did too take a look at date Amalthea. And I understand exactly what it does. You seem to be missing my point (or refuse to see it). I’ll repeat what I wrote above again: We editors should always be looking at precisely what unregistered readers see. Whatever the Date template shows for non-registered editors, that is all we need to type in hard-coded text. We don’t need tools that are simply designed to placate stubborn editors who insist on viewing dates in a *special* format that regular readers (99.9% of Wikipedia’s readership) can’t see. Where’d you get the idea that tools that provide a special benefit for only us registered editors was a wise thing to do? The very premiss behind making these tools was arrogant and patently absurd for an on-line encyclopedia. Greg L (talk) 04:39, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I did misunderstand you then, I thought you were still arguing about the inconsistent dates on one page that users will see - I think almost anybody agrees that this inconsistency is very bad. I do not see however the harm in giving registered editors the choice to see the date in whichever format they want. There are only 4 different date formats - whatever the default format is for anons, I'm sure that a very high percentage of the registered editors will see the article in just the same way as anons do. Furthermore, as sdsds said, a user preference to show metric or imperial units would be even nicer. I agree with him that MediaWiki should go forward with this, not backward. Lastly, why don't you propose to get rid of the skinning system as well? All your arguments apply there, too. -- Amalthea Talk 13:00, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Good point. Skinning is the root of the entire problem here. The only skinning allowed should have been limited strictly to issues unique to the editing experience, such as looking at the UTC time offset of edits in the history view. The first skinning options and editing tools (templates) that allowed editors to see article content that was different from that which the vast majority of our readership saw was a bad idea.The problem with giving editors a “choice” is we are masking editorial problems from the very people who are creating content. If there is a problem with date formatting that is *shocking* to people in the UK, for instance, then we need to develop a consensus amongst editors that a new way for dates must be developed, or decide that the problem isn’t a problem, or decide on an easy-to-follow set of rules to use article-appropriate date formating (my favorite). Simply masking the problem from the people who write articles and participate in establishing MOSNUM guidelines simply perpetuates problems for the vast majority of our readership. And in the case of the  date tool, the problems we’ve been masking are significant. Greg L (talk) 16:32, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The Date template only works for dates between 1970 and 2038, because it relies upon programming tools intended for internal use in the Unix operating system. As such, it is only fit for use to time events that occur internally within a computer that was placed in service after 1970 and will be junked before 2038. It is unfit for any other use. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 21:47, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That's not good. Obviously I haven't taken a very thorough look at it either. :| I'm not sure if there's a feasible parser-functions way to take in all those date formats, since I wouldn't want to make entering dates difficult by using several template parameters, or relying on editors not to use it for dates outside the supported range. Can those unsupported date ranges be somehow identified, to just route them through? -- Amalthea Talk 22:07, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Why would anyone want a tool that acts differently depending on what date is fed into it? Such a tool is what lawyers like to call an attractive nuisance. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 22:20, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * date does not handle dates prior to 1970 or 1901 well, hence my attempt at Date style metatemplate (see there for comparison, but shortly to be tweaked to less wikilinking code of my sandbox User:Davidruben/sandbox3, see Template talk:Cite web for comparison table). A major problem is that one can't in mediawiki directly read whether an editor has set a personal preference (only direct wikilinking an ISO-style date responds to a user's perference, but then if no user preference was set this always then shows just as the ISO style... i.e no best of both worlds of follow a user's preference if set else an editor's preference) David Ruben Talk 00:07, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * All of these tools: we just don't need them. Tony   (talk)  00:35, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * What Tony said. Exactly. Editors should write out the damned dates and should choose a format most suitable for the subject matter. If it’s a coin toss, no big deal; there is no “wrong guess” since no one is confused by any date format that has the name of the month spelled out. If any editor thinks that dates should somehow look *better* for just us editors, then don a pair of x-ray glasses. Other than that, please, try to accept the fundamental concept that it is wrong wrong, wrong,  to use tools that produce pretty (or prettier) output that only registered editors can see . If some date formatting tool produces a format that you think is good enough for “regular I.P. readers” to see, then fixed text in that same format is good enough for us registered editors to have to look at too. If any editor here disagrees with this premiss, then please produce your “I am really, really *special* license” for inspection.Junking these tools will also reduce the link clutter—to mind-numbing trivia no less—that has turned too many Wikipedia articles into seas of blue spaghetti. Way too much effort and keyboard pounding has been devoted to an issue that is just a problem of our own making. Greg L (talk) 04:31, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with the argument that a presentation tool which does not work for anyone except wiki editors is pretty pointless, and worse, potentially misleading to those editors trying to set up a page. I never saw the point of using date formatting and in 3 years have never set it for myself. I don't care how the date comes, though I would naturally write 13 June 1844. I can live with wierd transatlantic eccentricities, but it was my understanding that some editors could not: thus the compromise of introducing date formatting. Which, it has now been pointed out, really achieves nothing for purists in either camp if the effect is simply to pass on the text as written to most readers. Of course, if a template was introduced which defaulted to one style or another for every reader, then the war would no doubt break out again with great force. The fact that date autoformatting doesn't work except ofr die-hards may well have been its greatest attraction. Sandpiper (talk) 08:10, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Earlier in this "string", Amalthea referred to a "skinning system". What is that? FWiW Bzuk (talk) 13:15, 21 August 2008 (UTC).
 * See WP:SKIN - you can set it in your preferences, and it changes the stylesheet you get. -- Amalthea Talk 13:23, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Which states as follows: “…the presentational style of the pages can be changed, provided you have a Wikipedia account .” Who cares? Probably greater than 99.9% of Wikipedia’s readership doesn’t have an account. We need to be looking at what they’re seeing—not providing a *special* view of pages designed just for us. Greg L (talk) 16:20, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Unless there is a plan afoot to go even further than this and completely remove this table from MOSNUM, can we agree that to avoid really junking up articles for the vast majority of readers, that the bottom tool should at least have the double-asterisked caveat shown below?


 * Is there anyone who thinks that having pretty looking dates for just we editors justifies having MOSNUM tacitly recommend the use of this tool, which A) looks like crap for 99.9% of readers, and B) links to mindless trivia that is almost always entirely unrelated to the article’s content? To save you all the time necessary to wade through previous posts on this page, waiting around for developers to fix this tool so it works equally as well for regular I.P. users would require very substantial changes to the way Wikipedia’s inner workings work and just isn’t a realistic option. So as a practical matter, we need to limit the discussion here to what should be done with the current tools until such time that a better one is provided.


 * Having said all that, I do see one reasonable alternative: Is there a way to revise the bottom format so it defaults to “15 May 2005” for I.P users? And while we’re at it, we might as well get a non-breaking space between the month and date; the current one word-wraps. If this can’t reasonably be expected to be accomplished in the very near future, let’s get the asterisks in. If not that, then I’m perfectly happy to sit this one out on the sidelines as the realization better propagates throughout the editing community that all these tools, which benefit only we editors (and make links to trivia to boot), were a bad idea from the beginning, and this entire table is finally deleted. Greg L (talk) 19:02, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree to adding the disclaimer, but would recommend moving the double asterisks to the leftmost "What you type" column (and hope that no one will then actually type those). I'm not sure what this will do to e.g. the citation templates which ATM rely on the ISO format for the access date. I could imagine going either way here, remove the wikilinking or still allow ISO dates there (since 99% of our readers won't read the references anyway). -- Amalthea Talk 21:56, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Here's a thought- why not get rid of the citation templates, since they remain "buggy" and are almost impossible to figure out for the new editor? FWiW, authors routinely "key" in information for editing purposes, it's not an impossible task. It then reverts to WYSIWYG. Bzuk (talk) 22:05, 21 August 2008 (UTC).


 * -Amalthea, I was thinking about putting the double-asterisk in the “what you type” column, but I thought people would think you should type the asterisks. Unjustified concern? To address this, how about this way?


 * Greg L (talk) 23:25, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I allowed myself to convert your footnoted table above to proper, working footnotes. -- Amalthea Talk 23:47, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

If DA is to be deprecated, I'm unsure whether this table belongs at all in MOSNUM. Tony  (talk)  04:45, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * One step at a time, I think, would be best here Tony. If you toss a frog into hot water, it will hop out. But if you put it into cool water and turn up the heat, it will stay in the water and swim around until it dies. Since editors around here are so emotional about anything being “D-worded,” moving the table off of MOSNUM will help prevent editors from thinking it is a “tool of good standing.” And by keeping the table available somewhere else, we can refer to it for reference as we further debate our options. Greg L (talk) 14:57, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Autoformatting should be documented somewhere as long as it exists; otherwise we will have bug reports by people who don't understand that they accidentally set their preferences. Introductory text of the form: This is what autoformatting does; many editors feel that it should not be used. would solve any problem. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:39, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I completely agree with Pmanderson. Greg L (talk) 23:03, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Units and readability
An editor has raised an interesting point about the balance between readability and availability of metric units. Marcia Wright said on my talk page (selected quoting): I believe that Marcia is acting in good faith and from her contributions I believe her to be a good Wikipedian. However, she has raised an important issue that comes up from time to time on an international publication. I happen to think that metric units should be provided even if this looks unfamiliar (compared with other specialist or regional publications) or if it degrades readability (by whatever measure we might use). If you look at her contributions, you will see that she helps improve articles about American geography. Please look at those articles and see what you think about this issue of metric units vs readability. Lightmouse (talk) 15:13, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I believe that this is much easier to read:
 * Lassen National Forest is a 1.1 million-acre national forest located in northeastern California.
 * as opposed to this:
 * Lassen National Forest is a 1,100,000-acre (4,500 km2) national forest located in northeastern California.
 * with the metric units:
 * The readability should not be reduced just to have conversions added to the article.


 * I agree that in the above example the first version is preferable. But I take this to be an introductory sentence - I presume somewhere later on in the article the area of the forest will be addressed in a separate sentence or paragraph, and there both imperial and metric units should be given.--Kotniski (talk) 15:34, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Please look at the article and see. Lightmouse (talk) 15:38, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Following up on the article Lassen National Forest, the version used there, "Lassen National Forest is a 1.1 million-acre (4,500 km2) national forest located in northeastern California." seems to be the best choice. What am I not understanding? is this a case of deprecating metric systems? FWiW Bzuk (talk) 15:55, 21 August 2008 (UTC).

I originally added two metric conversions and they were both removed. Marcia asked for a means of preventing the template being in the article because of page load time. See our conversation. So I suggested that she made manual edits but also started a thread about load time statistics at Template_talk:Convert. I now see that she has added one of the two conversions in a manual form and says that issue is about the readability of '1.1 million ' versus '1,100,000 ' (which I have some sympathy with). The story is a bit confusing for me. I am not sure where we were, and where we went along the way, but I think that we are almost where we want to be i.e. with both non-metric values having a metric equivalent visible to the reader. Lightmouse (talk) 16:06, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Americans have to realize that theirs is a rather parochial attitude to the world. There are approximately 2,000,000,000 people in the world who can read English and who might potentially read that article. Of those, about 15% live in the United States. Most of the rest do not know what an acre is, and you can't seriously expect them to go and look it up in the midst of reading it. Even in Britain and its former colonies, most children do not study the Imperial system any more and do not really know what the units mean. Aesthetic differences aside, would it be more readable if I said something was 1.1 million arpents or 1,100,000 arpents in area?RockyMtnGuy (talk) 16:28, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Which is why to link acre here; but this article is unlikely to read, and extremely unlikely to be written, by non-Americans - so WP:ENGVAR applies. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:54, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I am not sure what you mean by the above comment, but I see that you have edited the article to move the conversion to a footnote. Taking conversions out of running text is another barrier to accessibility for metric readers. Lightmouse (talk) 17:08, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * RockyMtnGuy seems not to understand that this article is, and should be, written in American, so I cited our guidance.
 * WP:ENGVAR applies to the article, but WP:ENGVAR does *not* say anything about how to write units—WP:UNITS does, and it says that both units units should be given (main unit being US in this case). -- Amalthea Talk 18:09, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Parentheses are clumsy writing, a barrier to accessibility to all readers, metric or not. The exact acreage, and a conversion, are in the infobox for anyone who wants them. A link to acre remains in the text, and the footnote to the rough conversion for anyone who cannot recognize that more than a million of any plausible unit is likely to be a big area. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:21, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That looks pretty goofy. What was wrong with "1.1 million acres (4,500 km2)"? That's a pretty standard presentation, isn't it? And why link to "acre"? It's pretty obvious with the conversion that it's a unit of area. --Elliskev 17:29, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe you stretch ENGVAR too far here, Anderson, or is writing such that everyone can understand un-American? 1.1 million-acre national forest vs 1,100,000-acre (4,500 km2) is unfair. Either 1.1-million-acre national forest vs 1.1-million-acre (4,500 km2) or 1,100,000-acre national forest vs 1,100,000-acre (4,500 km2). Let Marcia call it as she will but as a metricated mo I see the readability significantly reduced by the removal of square kilometres. J IM ptalk·cont 17:32, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I call it significantly (and pointlessly) reduced by the parenthesis; but I will change to million-acre to make clear this is a round figure. WP:MOS (and MOSNUM, especially) should not be used to enforce bad writing; doing so is a disservice to Wikipedia.  It would be better to delete them than have them subserve the semi-literate version of political correctness. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:46, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

How about this? I added a new unit called "e6acre" (million acres) to Template:Convert. Now we can use it whenever we need to talk about millions of acres. with adj=on it gives 1.1 e6acre. --Random832 (contribs) 18:00, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

might also be good ... no, don't panic we're not about to insert  into Winnie the Pooh. J IM ptalk·cont 18:24, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It really doesn't matter how we get an unreadable parenthesized lump; it's still abominable writing. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:40, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * In an introductory paragraph, the goal is to give the reader a general concept of how large the forest is. Neither 1.1 million acres nor 4300 square kilometers really gives me a good concept, but at least with the metric figure, I can mentally note that if it were square, each edge would be between 60 and 70 kilometers. Doing any equivalent mental arithmetic with the customary figure is beyond me. So for me, the 4300 square kilometers figure is more useful. A corresponding customary description would be "a 1700 square mile national forest." --Gerry Ashton (talk) 18:54, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree the 1.1 doesn't serve much purpose; which is why it now reads million-acre forest. "1700 square mile" would be fine too; the whole thing belongs under our clause about four minute mile. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:02, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

No, it doesn't matter and yes, parenthesized-lumpless writing is preferable, but it's better than writing something that just doesn't make sense (i.e. imperial/US units to a metric minded reader or metric units to an imperial/US system minded reader). J IM ptalk·cont 18:58, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I fail to see that four-minute-mile connexion. J IM ptalk·cont 19:04, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Idiomatic expressions should not be spoiled by reflex conversion. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:07, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Absolutely but a measurement of an actual park out there in the world is not an idiomatic expression ... inspite of any rewording to make it look like one. J IM ptalk·cont 19:16, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The four-minute mile clause applies to common expressions, not common forms of expression. It would not apply, for example, to "the 0 to 60 time of the Jeep Cherokee was 11 seconds" because the next time the form of expression was found, the vehicle and time would most likely be different. This makes sense, because if it is a common idiom in the English language, even readers who don't use the system of units in the expression as their first choice will learn the meaning of the idiom once and for all, so won't need to do calculate a conversion to familiar units each time the expression is encountered. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 19:19, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I second what Gerry wrote. J IM ptalk·cont 19:29, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with Lightmouse's edit. I don't think in terms of square kilometers, but I know that there are people (like Lightmouse) that do.  The reverse, adding imperial units, can and should be applied to say a National Park in South Africa that is 450000 hectares&mdash;i.e.  450000 ha. Sorry, but Marcia Wright is not right on this one.  Since I don't think in terms of km2, I just skip over the (4,500 km&sup2;) part anyway when reading.  Therefore, the readability is not affected for me.  &mdash;  MJC detroit  (yak) 20:42, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Notwithstanding the aesthetics of the four-minute mile, whether it's the statute mile, the metric mile, or the 1500 metres, the fact is that if you put something out on the World Wide Web, everybody on the planet can read it. Case in point - I led a hike in the Canadian Rockies recently. The club I belong to posted it on our Web site. Of the people who contacted me about it, one was from the Netherlands, one was from Israel, two were from France, two were from Japan and only one was from Canada. Since most of them didn't understand feet or miles, we calibrated our altimeters in metres and our GPS units in kilometres. So, if you put something out on the World Wide Web, be aware that anyone on the planet can read it, and not everybody has the same standards as you.RockyMtnGuy (talk) 21:20, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I am about to invoke the "too many cooks" clause (LOL) as the "improvements" are not there; putting information in a reference note is not a good solution. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 21:28, 21 August 2008 (UTC).


 * Lightmouse: I think your first instinct was spot on (but with a modification): That particular article should be written as follows:


 * Lassen National Forest is a 1.1 million-acre (4,300 km2) national forest located in northeastern California.


 * Why? Well…
 * The text you propose is much more fluid and natural to read and is the way one would find such information in a U.S. National Parks’ brochure.
 * The existing text here (“is a million-acre national forest”) seems unduly informal and non-encyclopedic. Since the value is known to high precision (at 1,070,344 acres), going to two significant digits is entirely appropriate for readers interested in the relative sizes of national parks.
 * The article is about a U.S. National Forest and is therefore U.S.-centric. So it should have acres first for that audience.
 * The parenthetical should be provided for the benefit of other English-speaking peoples of the world and in the unit of measure most common for SI-using countries. The style I chose for my example here is, I believe, in accordance with existing guidelines on MOSNUM.
 * It conforms with other MOSNUM guidelines, which calls for the first instances of the primary units of measure to be linked, and for the first instance(s) of the primary measure to be spelled out. The unit of measure in the parenthetical conversion doesn’t need to be linked because it’s magnitude is obvious when juxtaposed next to the primary measure.


 * P.S. I don’t see the value of the footnote since the exact size is shown in the sidebar infobox.


 * PPS I did my own conversion and the actual size is 4331.5 square kilometers, so it’s “4,300”, not “4,500”.


 * Greg L (talk) 21:45, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I absolutely agree, see comments I made a zillion spaces up. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 21:50, 21 August 2008 (UTC).
 * I unconditionally disagree. Bad writing is bad writing; and we don't need to convert an intentionally approximate wording when there is a precise statement and conversion on the other side of the page. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:07, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * If this is turning into a poll: I agree with Greg L, but can also live with the current version per Gerry Ashton. Square miles gives me (as a metric) a rough estimate that I can grasp, compared to acres which means nothing to me, but I would always prefer the real deal, per MOS:CONVERSIONS. -- Amalthea Talk 00:29, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

So what is wrong with this rewording to avoid the awkward triple item:

"Lassen National Forest is a national forest of 1.1 million acres (4,500 km2) in northeastern California"

The example wasn't helped by a redundant word. I increasingly see a tendency to resort to multiple hyphenated units, but there's always a more striaghtforward alternative. With conversion, they are better avoided. Another point: how many American readers will be able to conceptualise a million acres? What is wrong with square miles? Tony  (talk)  04:41, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * PPS I did my own conversion and the actual size is 4331.5 square kilometers, so it’s “4,300”, not “4,500”. Unfortunately, this problem is due to the double rounding inherent in use of the convert template: the input is given as 1.1 (2 significant figures) and then it converts 1,100,000 acres to km2 (4,451) and then rounds _that_ to 2 significant figures. --Random832 (contribs) 14:23, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * A reason to be careful with convert. But Marcia was right to begin with: Lassen National Forest is a national forest of 1.1 million acres (4,500 km2) in northeastern California is clumsy and difficult to read; as an opening sentence, it offers metric raaders very little, all of it available elsewhere. If there is a Siberian reserve somewhere notable because it is over a million hectares, a rational American reader will accept that as a summary, and if xe wants an exact area, look further in the article. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:32, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm rather surprised by this long discussion on a single example. I thought the issue had been decided once and for all a long time ago. There is a clear guideline to always provide conversions for non-SI units. Readability is not determined by style only, but also by presenting comprehensible information to the reader (and outside the U.S.A. nobody knows what an acre is). &minus;Woodstone (talk) 14:53, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Please quote the wording which would apply such a mandate to this situation, so that I may dispute it. Any guidance which makes this encyclopedia less readable without making it more clear should be ignored. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:47, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * See Manual of Style (dates_and_numbers). There are a few exceptions, but none apply here. In your opinion it may reduce readably in mine it enhances it. No need to start scolding. &minus;Woodstone (talk) 18:01, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * At the risk of getting pointy, I believe Lassen is in Northern Paiute territory, so perhaps the local unit should be square rabbit-skins per Harry W. Gilmore "Hunting Habits of the Early Nevada Paiutes" American Anthropologist, New Series, Vol. 55, No. 1 (Jan. - Mar., 1953), pp. 148-153
 * But seriously, if all the fuss is about the parentheses, perhaps we should consider more verbose ways of presenting the conversion. One might suggest something of the form:  Lassen National Forest is a US national forest in northeastern California occupying 4331.5 km2, locally described as 1,070,344 acres. LeadSongDog (talk) 19:28, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I haven't read the whole discussion, but conversions should stay in one form or another. I managed to master the languages in all the places I've lived, but never the conversions. My entire household loves them; I can simultaneously read a number on Wiki that I understand, and a number the rest of the family understands. It's one of our strengths; let's not lose it. I can't really relate to complaining about reading around one set of parentheses. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 02:49, 23 August 2008 (UTC)