Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-11-29 ITWA


 * If it were a "bogus" professional association and were "imaginary", then why has a newspaper published multiple articles about said professional league? Slyder Pilot E@ 19:00, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * That is a question more appropriately addressed to the newspaper involved. Rklawton 19:08, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Rhetorical question not actually calling for a response from Rklawton. Slyder Pilot E@ 20:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Additionally, if it truly is a "one man organization", then why do we have multiple competitors, champions and co-founders? Slyder Pilot E@ 19:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Drinking buddies Rklawton 19:08, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * First, this comment is highly inappropriate for a discussion like this, especially if you want to assert the legitamacy of Wikipedia like you have so steadfastly done in the past. Second, I don't drink and neither does the other Co-Founder, Seth Grenke. Furthermore, Seth Grenke has never met any of the other current or past champions. So that somewhat destroys your notion of "drinking buddies." Slyder Pilot E@ 20:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


 * A more relevant question is: if it isn't a hoax, why was the ITWA article speedied once and then AfD'd?  Rklawton 19:08, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know. You tell me since you're the one always tracking down and deleting any mention of it before giving any chance of assering notability. Slyder Pilot E@ 20:20, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Four months isn't sufficent time to assert notability? Rklawton 20:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but not everyone who edits Wikipedia has as much time to devote to editing articles/making them works of glory as you, the almighty editor, do. So forgive me for not making the most recent edition of the ITWA article as good as something like The Iliad. Slyder Pilot E@ 20:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


 * In the interest of full disclosure, Slyder Pilot should also list his relationship with the ITWA. Rklawton 19:08, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Slyder Pilot is the Co-Founder and Interim Commissioner of the International Thumb Wrestling Association. Slyder Pilot E@ 20:20, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

OK guys this is getting pretty vicious. Let's try to keep this dispute as civil as possible. As a third party, it seems to me that the first thing that needs to be done is the ITWA needs to establish credibility before earning a place in Wikipedia. Now some rather obscure organizations have entire articles devoted to them, but we have to draw the line somewhere. First, if the ITWA was as big as Slyder Pilot makes it sound, wouldn't someone besides him have mentioned it? It shouldn't be necessary for the co-founder of this organization to insert it into a wikipedia article. People are generally discouraged from writing about themselves or anything that they stand to gain from as a result (in order to keep NPOV). A google search yields minimal results about the ITWA. However, surely there are other organizations, perhaps ones that are more easily seen to be encyclopedic, that are devoted to thumb wrestling, and it would make sense to have a link to one such organization. But if there aren't, what's the harm in including the ITWA as an example of one such organization? As far as I can tell, it is a legitimate club, albeit small and difficult to reference. Perhaps you two can agree on one of these points? Antimatter 06:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Since it appears to be the only one of its sort, and while somewhat hard to reference, is still referenceable nonetheless, wouldn't that make it notable enough for at least a link on the Thumb wrestling page? This is in addition to having multiple newspaper articles written about it in other countries. And like you said, some other more obscure organizations have full articles written about them here at Wikipedia. Just my two cents. Slyder Pilot E@ 12:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that people who make up clubs should not be encouraged to add links to those clubs in Wikipedia articles. Rklawton 13:47, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you here. Had it been say George Halas creating an article an the NFL, would you have stopped him? Slyder Pilot E@ 14:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


 * And that's the difference we're talking about here! The NFL was notable before it got mention in Wikipedia.  If you want to make the "ITWA" famous, please do so.  Until then, it just doesn't belong here.  Here's what other editors and admins have had to say about the "ITWA" in their previor dealings with Slyder Pilot:


 * 2nd link has no mention of ITWA but keep trying. ;-) Slyder Pilot E@ 14:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * That's not strictly true. Your answer to question #2 mentiones ITWA, and I included it for the sake of completeness.  Rklawton 15:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is strictly true. You mention that other Editors and Admins mention it and so far we have Tijuana Brass & you mentioning it in those two links and that's it. Eat it and like it. Slyder Pilot E@ 01:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I have a remarkable ability to predict the actions of admins. I think if this dispute got kicked up to an arbitration committee, the ITWA would be shot down, mostly due to the precedent concerning the article. I'm sorry, but a couple newspaper articles just aren't enough to establish the kind of credibility one would expect from an organization with a name like "International Thumb Wrestling Association". There have been newspaper articles written about me (mostly police blotters....j/k) but I don't have an article in wikipedia. I think you need just a little more press and support. I know it seems harmless just to have a link there, but it could just be misleading, someone might be expecting a large, for-profit operation like the IOC. Don't despair, though, I may have a compromise. If Slyder Pilot can show more press, or perhaps some legitimate testimonials, make some effort to establish notability on his website, it would deserve a link. I'm not taking sides here, I would like to see the ITWA gain some notoriety, but it should be done somewhere besides wikipedia. I'm sure most admins would agree with me on that. I hope you guys will too. I also hope to hear some compromise proposals from you two as well, besides just saying "delete it" or "keep it". Remember, this is a mediation, try to keep it civil. Rklawton, there was no need to dig up the dirt on Slyder Pilot's RfA, although I can see by making that effort how serious you are about this. Antimatter 00:16, 1 December 2006 (UTC)