Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-03-10 Newroz as celebrated by Kurds

Comment: The merge was proposed by me, and the original idea as described in the centred on the fact that:


 * I couldn't find any significant differences in the celebrations that needed a whole new article to explain it (basically even according to latest changes made to the article, after me asking him on number of times to improve the article rather than discuss the matter, the only difference seems to be waving of Kurdish flags, which is mainly if not only is done by Kurds in Turkey).


 * As I said in the original proposition regarding the merge, there are atleast a dozen different ethnic groups who celebrate it. The celebrations differ minimally as I mentioned about this one above. As other users have agreed to this also (currently 10 people have voted support for the Merge).


 * Jeff disagreed with the Merge and has continously made his case known, and finally after 5 days of discussion he started to work on the article he didn't wish to be merged


 * On seeing this, I told him that I appreciate his efforts however he is using "weak" sources to support his generalised statements . The sources in question was a book titled "Refugee and Immigrant Health: A Handbook for Health Professionals", which hardly looks like a strong source to use as a reference in this dispute (regarding ethnic differences in a middle eastern festival).


 * I do not agree with the way Jeff has created this Mediation by only including one other user who surprisingly is one of the only people agreed with him by opposing the merge. The very same user who is the photographer of 4 out of the 5 images on the article, all from the same political rally in Turkey.


 * Regarding the current version of the article, I still believe it has too much focus on political issues with Kurds in Turkey and all of that can be summarised in to a short paragraph. That with another paragraph explaining any major differences with the Norouz festival can make an excellent section in the Norouz article without any need for an extra article. This can only be helpful to put an stop to any repeat of the material.


 * I believe Jeff disagrees with this based on that he believes the legend for the festival is also different and it would be too big to include on the Norouz article. Well, the fact that there is little evidence to support that all Kurds follow that legend, especially since there is less interest in non-Turkish Kurdistan in pan-Kurdism and Kurdish "national" identity (because there is less human right problems of Kurds in Iran where Norouz is the official national holiday and Iraq where Kurds now face much less descrimination since fall of Saddam and current president Talabani is a Kurd), generally there is no need to take the POV that this is the what Kurds as an ethnic group believe is the legend behind Newroz! and this is how they celebrate it, because the sources used are - usually - referring to Kurds in Turkey or Iraq (or Kurds from this area, in the Kurdish diaspora)


 * And finally, I want Jeff to know I appreciate all his efforts (again) and I think we agree on many levels and a compromise will not be hard to reach.

Regards, --Rayis 18:44, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Rayis is going against one source, the handbook, but there are so many other sources that I have provided, and instead of looking them up himself, he makes me do all the work again. I will address his second to last point here, in the spirit of assuming good faith, by presenting all the sources here. Below I will address his other points.


 * , it concentrates on the Kurds in Iraq
 * "During Newroz, a spring festival, Kurds commemorate the defeat of a tyrannical king 2,500 years ago. This year it meant victory over Hussein."
 * ""It was a dying holiday but he revived it and remade it as a symbol of Kurdish national struggle, says Stran Abdullah, a Kurdish journalist. "It was to remind everyone and ourselves that we're different, a special people. The lighting of the fires became a symbol of freedom."''"


 * ; For Turkey:
 * "In the late 1980s, with the rise of Kurdish nationalism and the terror that accompanied it, however, in Turkey, the concept of Nevruz as well as the celebration of it had come to be associated with Kurdish identity."
 * "the Turkish state began to celebrate Nevruz3 – a tradition, which has come to be related with Kurdishness."
 * "In the 1980s, with the rise of Kurdish nationalism, Nevruz made a comeback on newspaper pages in two different ways. First, Nevruz day and the rituals of the Nevruz tradition, such as people gathering and jumping over a bonfire, were used as a means to express Kurdish identity in Eastern Turkey where the population is overwhelmingly of Kurdish origin, and to some degree within some enclaves in Istanbul and Ankara where again the number of people of Kurdish origin is high."
 * "In using Nevruz as their symbol of revival and resurrection the Kurds referred to an interesting legend in their mythology according to which, Nevruz marked the celebration of the uprising led by Kawa, a blacksmith, against Dehhak, a repressive ruler. Kawa, according to the legend, killed Dehhak and freed his people.15 Despite its importance for most of the Alevi-Bektashi groups in the region in general,16 Nevruz came to be associated by the end of the 1980s mainly with Kurdish identity as well as with the attempts to express and resurrect it."


 * regarding Turkey
 * "A central part of that heritage is Newroz, which dates back 2,500 years as a celebration of spring and the new year in parts of the Middle East and Asia. In past years, the Turkish security police banned the celebrations because the P.K.K. tried to turn them into political rallies, which often ended in violence."


 * refers to the nature of Newruz as a political means across Iraq, Iran and Turkey
 * "Many other Kurdish traditions taken for granted by the Iranian and Iraqi Kurds have also been little more than curiosities in far western and northern Kurdistan in Turkey. Since these latter sections of the Kurdish nation together constitute the majority of the Kurds, it persuades one to ask the question as to which Kurdish tradition are to be taken as national and which as local in Kurdistan, regardless of their external prestige.  Is Tuldan, which is practices widely by the northern and western Kurds, i.e., the majority of the Kurds, no to replace New Ruz as the most important Kurdish national celebration?  Perhaps New Ruz has just been getting better press because of the prominence that its staunchest adherents - the Iraqi and Iranian Kurds - have been enjoying through their more frequent popular uprisings.  Whatever the earlier influence of the New Ruz celebration, the western and northern Kurds seem to have resolved to celebrate this national festival, at least as a unifiying political expression.  As such, every passing year witnesses a larger (and sometimes violent) participation of the Kurds in this and other long-forbidden ehtnic celbrations in Turkey."


 * for Kurds everywhere, but specifically Syria
 * "Newroz (New Year's Day) is a popular Kurdish festival celebrated on 21 March each year by Kurds everywhere, dressed in their national dress. In 1986, this traditional feast was the occasion of bloodshed.  In the Kurdish quarter of Damascus a few thousand Kurds, most of them young, had gathered to celebrate New Year in a peaceful and orderly fashion when police arrived on the scene"


 * relating to Syria and to the common heritage and myths held by all Kurds:
 * "According to Human Rights Watch, Kurds in Syria have had to struggle to obtain permission to celebrate Newroz, and in the past this celbration has been met with violent repression. A report written in 1994 by officials from two embassies based in Damascus concurred by stating that Newroz events are tolerated as long as they d not become political demonstrations protesting the treatment of the Kurds.  Human Rights Watch reported that the Republican Guard opened fire on thsoe involved in Newroz celebrations in Damascus in 1995 when the festivities had culminated in a peaceful procession from the Kurdish quarter for the city to the national palace, in which participants demanded rights for those Kurdsi who had been denied their nationalilty.  One intervieww told the same organization that the authorities often sought to deter people from participating in Newroz celebrations by spreading rumours of bomb threats."
 * "Neroz events organized by the PKK were free from interference, but those events organized by Syrian Kurdish parties were still often banned."
 * "The Kurds fulfil all six of these criteria, both collectively and within each State. Their name constitutes both self awareness and external recognition.  Their myth of common ancestry is common to all Kurds, regardless of their true ancestry.  Their shared historical memories are constituted not only by the evetns of the twentieth century which have divided and oppressed them, bu by older heroes and myths such as the events which are commemorated every March by the festival of Newroz.  They shared elements of a common culture, the msot notable of which is their language."


 * again in Syria
 * "There is a history of violent confrontation between the Syrian authorities and Kurds. In March 1986, during the Festival of Newroz, clashes between both sides resulted in several deaths and injuries. In October 1992 Kurds marked the 30th anniversary of the census which deprived many Kurds of their Syrian nationality and basic civil rights. In response Syrian security forces carried out mass arrests. In 1995 the Syrian authorities banned the traditional Newroz celebrations and dozens of Kurds were arrested."


 * regarding specifically Turkish Kurds, but also generally all Kurds'''
 * "Newroz, the Kurdish New Year that is celebrated on the 21st of March, was first adopted by Iraq’s Kurds as their own national holiday in the 1950s. In imitation of the Kurdish movement in Iraq, the Kurdish students’ unions in Europe began organising Newroz parties, with music and dance and speeches. Through the first Newroz parties, the students also attempted to reach out to Kurdish workers and to make them more aware of their Kurdish identity. In my own country, the Netherlands, Newroz celebrations began after the arrival of the first group of Iraqi Kurdish refugees in 1975. Initially they involved just the Iraqi Kurds and their Dutch friends and other guests, with only a few Turkish Kurds participating, but each year the number of Kurds from Turkey increased. In the 1980s, the Newroz parties came to be dominated by Kurds from Turkey, because ever more migrant workers were mobilised and many educated people fled from Turkey to Europe. Among the refugees there were, moreover, Kurdish singers, musicians and actors, who made a significant impact. Newroz became more and more politicised, however. Each political party or organisation held its own Newroz celebrations, which assumed the character of political rallies instead of just occasions for listening to music and song, dancing and dining together. Those organised by the PKK distinguished themselves, especially in the first years, i.e. the early 1980s, by their obsession with physical oppression by the state and their calls for violent struggle for liberation. Newroz celebrations became the major social events where the Kurdish communities visibly manifested themselves. Whereas in the 1970s a typical Newroz party might be attended by several hundred people, those of the 1990s drew up to several tens of thousands of participants of all ages. In spite of their political character, they were family events, attended by people of all ages."


 * talks about Kurds in diaspora:
 * "The most common Kurdish celebration in Australia is Newroz. This occasion does not only mark the beginning of the Kurdish new year, but is also considered the Kurdish National Day."


 * more diaspora from all Kurdish backgrounds
 * "The Information Centre's aim was, of course, to distribute information about Kurdistan, but otherwise the Kurdish associations in Finland concentrated on cultural and social activities for Kurds and their Finnish friends. The Newroz celebration was one of the most important of these activities."
 * "The Newroz celebration was another way of demonstrating support for the Kurdish cause. This ancient spring celebration among the Kurds and the Persians is now often a political manifestation celebrating Kurdish identity and culture. The largest Kurdish associations in both England and Finland organize their own Newroz celebrations. The music, speeches, and dances at these parties often symbolic meaning for the participants."
 * "Newroz is an important celebration for all Kurds. The parties organized by the Kurdish associations are often very popular.  In London, some of the interviewees had visited several different organizations' parties.  These gatherings were important occasions during which Kurds from different organizations, background and countries could meet and enjoy themselves."

The combination of these sources show that the mythology and the fight for the Kurdish cause is not only in Turkey, but also Syria and Iraq, and in diaspora. The case for the Iranian Kurds is harder to get out of these quotes, but there are many sources above that usef Kurds of all nationalities and there is the one specific Iranian statement.

Now, addressing Rayis' other points. That other groups also celebrate Norouz, however it is tranliterated, does not disallow the fact that the Kurds do celebrate it somewhat differently, and that an article can be created, especially when it is done in summary style.

Furthermore, summarizing the article that currently exists in a couple paragraphs in the main article, and getting rid of it, is, in essence, a deletion of sourced content. The content is verifiable, notable, and deserves to have some mention. I agree that this material is too detailed for the main article, and that is why it should be done in summary style.

Note, that all the other editors who have supported the merge, have not come up with any reliable sources, but just giving statements like "It's the same". This sort of opinion does not work against the reliable sources mentioned above. Regards, -- Jeff3000 19:50, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe most of my concerns have been met thanks to Jeff's hard work on the article. It has to be noted that much of the work on the article was only done today and now the article is in good shape, sourced and NPOV. Cheers, --Rayis 21:48, 10 March 2007 (UTC)