Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2009-04-08/Lady Gaga discography

This one person keeps editing out contributions by others, talking down to them and treating them as if they don't have a right to ask questions. He goes by Legolas and has told people on the discussion page that he doesn't care what anybody thinks. He has struck out comments we have made as well as totally deleted others (I know this because suggestions I have made, that he didn't like, are now gone). He is acting like a bully toward others on this page and acting as if it is his own. He keeps insisting there is a way how these pages are to be set up, but many of us who are chart watchers know there is no consistency between the discographies between music artists. Various people who have asked questions have been talked down to. I don't mind someone telling me (or others) that something I have added is wrong, but it needs to be done in a civil manner. And when we ask a question or make a suggestion, we shouldn't be treated as if we are asking something stupid or are suggesting something wrong. There are better ways to treat people here and he needs to be aware he doesn't own the page. He needs to treat the people who come and make suggestions or additions with civility. (MoovieStarz (talk) 05:23, 8 April 2009 (UTC))
 * P.S. I thought I made it perfectly clear that "I don't care what you people have to say about me as long as you put valid info in the article". Provide link where I have personally abused somebody can you? Or provide link where I have told somebody to shut up or get lost as you have accused. Instead I can provide links where you are going forum like on this site and have shown utterly no care when requested to stop it. Even I removed a complete section because you and Ninjachcks were the one who kept on discussing things like how successful Gaga is going to be this week and Billboard Hot 100 positions etc. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 05:29, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Contrary to what he might say this is not about not agreeing with changes he has made. It's how he has treated myself and others. If we ask a question, make a suggestion etc we should not be talked down to. Also if we do add something to an article that goes against policy then all he needs to do is write us and explain why he had to revert the article. There is no reason to get hostile with people because they made a change he didn't like. (MoovieStarz (talk) 05:33, 8 April 2009 (UTC))
 * Please provide a link where I have treated you badly. I can actually provide numerous links whre you and others are bad mouthing me and Wikipedia. For removing content failing WP:RS i do that in the edit summary which you, I must say need to learn. I don't need to write a personal letter to you explaining every change I make. Read the edit summaries, its better. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 05:36, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Here is an example of the rudeness that Legolas displays.

Please stop adding such discussions at the talk page. They are forum like and are completely unacceptable. Please read WP:NOTFORUM. --Legolas (talktome) 11:07, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

There is a better way to tell me or others that we have done something wrong and I have no problem with him doing that. He could simply say "I know you are trying to add information you feel is useful, but it does not belong here, but at this site" or something along those lines. When others have asked questions because they don't understand why something has been deleted or change, it simply isn't given a simple polite answer. No it is answered with an attitude. When people make a suggestion, again it is answered with an attitude. This is all I am asking to change. This has nothing to do with Certs, how the page is designed etc. It is how I and others are treated by Legolas when we question the design or make a suggestion on the design. The answers we get are what I am complaining about. They are uncalled for. (MoovieStarz (talk) 05:44, 8 April 2009 (UTC))
 * Thats an example of rudeness???? You are kidding me. Its perfectly logical and permissible to remove content that grossly violates WP:NOTFORUM. Don't expect me to beg you to stop adding such staff. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 06:01, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Here are more examples of comments made to me and others

Take it to the WP:CHARTS project page, not here. --Legolas (talktome) 11:46, 20 March 2009 (UTC) Go take it with the concerned people, don't blab here. --Legolas (talktome) 14:40, 2 April 2009 (UTC) No. It should be like it is now. All countries are not supposed to be listed. See the discussions above. --Legolas (talktome) 06:23, 2 April 2009 (UTC) Oh and this one is from my talk page where he accuses me of adding a song to the discography after I had added twice (Not knowing why it had been removed) and hadn't done it again once I had been told why. I even added a comment when someone did it again to let him know I didn't do it. This was what he wrote
 * Completely acceptable. A discography talkpage is not a palce for talking about which chart is valid. We have a Wikipedia project for it. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 06:28, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * No not acceptable, what had been written pertained to the article and page. What was wrong with the comments was never fully explained. All that you did was to give attitude.(MoovieStarz (talk) 11:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC))
 * You wrote about why the link couldnot be included. There was a perfectly valid discussion going on at WP:CHARTS. If you felt that was attitude, I can't help it. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 11:34, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Because though told otherwise, you were continuing to write in the talk page about things which are supposed to be handled somewhere else. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 06:28, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * This is a talk page and unless you want to write a full list at the top of the page as to what is or isn't permissable, I suggest you talk to people in a more civil way and explain why their contribution to the page breaks the rules. It's funny that some people here can discuss what they want. If an article or comment flies in the face of what you believe, you tell people to take it elsewhere or you delete the article. For someone who wants to discuss rules here, there are rules against that. It's called vandalizing. (MoovieStarz (talk) 11:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC))
 * Huh? --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 11:34, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * A good example that you yourself donot read other sections in the talkpage and refuse to do so when being directed. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 06:28, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I have read all the sections. And you consistently do not answer people's questions when they are confused as to why something is done a certain way. There would not be a problem here if you had. (MoovieStarz (talk) 11:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC))
 * Show me an instance. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 11:34, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Stop adding LoveGame to the Gaga singles discography page. Its not confirmed as a single. If you want add it to the Promo section not in the Single section. As evident from your talk page, I think we are gonna have problem with your WP:NPA ways .--Legolas (talktome) 05:34, 13 March 2009 (UTC) Not only did he accuse me of something I hadn't done at this point he makes a rude comment about my problems with a similar person two years ago, even though his own talk page and the Lady Gaga talk page are full of his WP:NPA ways. I go to other discographies and don't have these sort of problems when I have tried to edit. The people there don't get rude. I have only had one other problem with a person here. That was two years ago. Most people at thes discographies send you a nice letter if you messed something up or added something you shouldn't. That isn't happening here. The letters tend to be rude and people treated as if they asked a stupid question. When I asked why The German charts I offered failed as a "bad source" I Got this response:
 * Yes you persisted on adding it when you knew very well that it is not a single. I see you haven't given the comment from your talk page where I explained that it is not supposed to go in the singles page but rather the "Other Charted Songs" section. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 06:28, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * No I made a change twice to the discography. Other people continued to make changes and you accused me of making the changes they made. I only changed it twice. Once it was explained to me, I didn't do it again. I then told the page that the change had been made again and that I did not do it. You then still accused me on my talk page. (MoovieStarz (talk) 11:09, 8 April 2009 (UTC))
 * Provide reference that I accused you. I definitely remember using warning templates and you writing tons in my talk page about what is a single and what is not according to "Billboard". Then I said to add LoveGame under "Other Charted Songs" but not in the singles table. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 11:14, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Because it is still evident that you yourself think that you are right and I see you still haven't read the policies and guidelines. As I have pointed you earlier show me truly an example of my PA ways. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 06:28, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Take it to the WP:CHARTS project page, not here. --Legolas (talktome) 11:46, 20 March 2009 (UTC) There was no call for that. I was told they failed and I asked why and asked who put the list together. No answer, just attitude.Ok well I am going to bed. I am just tired of coming on here to just be helpful, only to see myself and others treated as if we are dirt. Thank You for your time (MoovieStarz (talk) 06:13, 8 April 2009 (UTC))
 * Because there was a discussion going on there, which I must say you donot notice though you keep on writing tons there. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 06:28, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * If somebody can show me any valid proof of my rudeness, I'll accept, however such statements above which I have counter answered are just waste of time according to me. My argument is certification should be included but only the major markets, however User:Mooviestarz instead is stating all possible charts and certifications should be included which I must say fails WP:FANCRUFT. If you notice I only added the major markets and told the others to add the certifications to the singles pages. If they expect me to beg them and tell, sorry I won't. I don't entertain forum like conversations in Wikipedia and if necessary I'll raise ANI. It's not my fault that he's frustrated that he'll start bad mouthing me saying "See guys! He owns the page" or "Ohh don't you know Saint Legolas". I won't tolerate such comments. And none of it can proove that I'm being rude. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 06:19, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Its not so much your rudeness but your inability to talk to others and realise their ideas. You are ruling this page like a totalitarianism instead of as a democracy. You should no longer be in charge of the Lady Gaga discography page and i plead with someone to remove him from this pretigious position.--Love.Game (talk) 08:34, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * No I do not suggest all charts should be used. What I suggested is that the main page be limited to certain countries. But on the article page for each single we should include the charts peaks for any country that is accepted as a valid chart. It gives people more info to go by. But from your comment you show that as usual you don't bother reading what others write. If you don't agree with it you ignore what others say and get rude. (MoovieStarz (talk) 11:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC))
 * You are most certainly tweaking your own words and telling what I have been saying. Thanks for supporting me. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 11:34, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Provide reason and reference Dance-pop. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 08:38, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * If we can not come down to an agreement, then we require an administrator of much knowledge of how 'discography' pages are properly constructed. Wikipedia is encyclopedic, therefore making changes should be in factual form following guidelines. Articles shall not be structured aesthetically using personal preference as an exuse for each review. This problem is continuing to blow up. It needs someone of authority for control over the issue! childfunk. ( chat ) 08:52, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeh I totally agree. So how do we find someone who is qualified to handle the situation?--Love.Game (talk) 09:18, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

As I tried to go to sleep I thought of another situation. I added an article that referred to the fact that Lady Gaga's Pop Single had Hit #1 at on iTunes in America. In that I commented that this was more than likely a sign that the song would go number one that coming Thursday when the New Hot 100 was released. I did not realize at the time that I was not signed in so when I signed the comments, so as a result my name didn't show with it but an IP address. Legolas responded that it was interesting. A day or two later when it came out I suggested that it probably might not stay at #1 long. This time I was signed in. I then got a rude comment that their was no place for this here. Within a day the article was removed, even though he had participated in the discussion. It's a little hard to know what you can or can't discuss here and it seems the information at the top of the page keeps changing. I see that Legolas had the rudeness to go in add comments throughout my comments here rather than in a seperate paragraph. I did not go in add my comments to what he wrote and should have been shown the same consideration. As can be seen above I am not the only one with problems with how he is handling things and I know there are more. Legolas just refuses to see how his comments can be taken as rude. But it's obvious from others comments that I am not the only one taking it that way. Not to mention others here feel like he looks at the opage as HIS page. (MoovieStarz (talk) 10:55, 8 April 2009 (UTC))
 * What you or the so called IP pointed was something that could have been discussed in hte article and hence my reply that its interesting. But later what you did was completely despicable including copying info from pulsemusic and pasting it here. I had to act. Well you pointed out some of my comments and obviously I had to defend myself. I'm not here to be in your good nooks but to make constructive editing, and frankly I find discussing matters with you pointless as there is hardly any assumption of good faith, instead name calling and drama. Seriously had enough of you being such a dick!. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 11:02, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * FYI, canvassing like this is also not allowed if you must know. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 11:17, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 'but messages that are written to influence the outcome rather than to improve the quality of a discussion compromise the consensus building process and may be considered disruptive.' - Don't worry I'll improve the quality of this discussion ;D NinjaChucks (talk) 12:01, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I did not copy info from pulsemusic. All info I got was from iTunes. But since you deleted the article no one can see what was or wasn't said. All I can say is that it is evident from this page as well as the discography talk page that there is a problem. When others suggest you are treating the page as a totalitarian state, then there is a problem. I await the Mediator. If this was just about me it would be one thing. But it obvious you have a proble with multiple users. (MoovieStarz (talk) 11:58, 8 April 2009 (UTC))
 * One can see from history page and will know what you people were discussing. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 04:12, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Just so you know I was the one that added info so don't blame MoovieStarz for the discussion on #1 and iTunes but yes it is very suspicious that when the discussion was first started with a random ip Legolas didn't find anything wrong with it but when I mearly went into more detail it was removed. NinjaChucks (talk) 12:01, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Well then I have to report you for continuing forum like conversation. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 04:12, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Ok I'm not going to read through all this but our main problem with Legolas is that he treats the Lady GaGa Discography like a dictatorship. For example even though users agreed in the discussion on ten countries for the tables (US Hot 100, Netherlands, Australia, Canda, France, Germany, NZ, Ireland, Sweden and the UK) he then adds other countries and when asked to remove them he refuses. Another example is that even though it is only him who feels we should put certifications in the tables he refuses to put them back where they belong and where they are on practically all other discographies. NinjaChucks (talk) 12:01, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Remove it if you like, but I can prove from the history page that the number of times it was removed, page was completely screwed up with tables having no end and no references etc. I just reverted them back to the former position. And stop comparing other discographies here. I don't see proper referencing in others. If you can provide proper reference and not just some invalid chart, its ready to go back the old way, otherwise not. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 04:12, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I will say no more till the moderator speaks, but let it be known that although I said Legolas was arrogant and a bully I never used foul language like the word D**k to him. That is a violation of the rules here and goes to show the type of thing we have been dealing with. Also I informed NinjaChucks what was going on. As a witness it is my or anyone's obligation to inform him of what is going on so he can give his version of the story as well. If that is somehow wrong too, then I am sorry. But you went after him as well as me and he needed to let people know about your behavior as well. (MoovieStarz (talk) 16:55, 8 April 2009 (UTC))


 * There is something called WP:GIANTDICK which you are a very good example of. Check the wikilink for the word dick I used. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 04:12, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * As I stated before, this discussion will continue to blow up until an authority contributes respectively. The argumenting must stop, otherwise some of you may find yourself in deep consequences if continuing to vulgarly dispute. childfunk. ( chat ) 22:26, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Like I said I am waiting on the mediator.The fact that there is even a page at Wikipedia like this GiantD**K page boggles my mind. And the fact that someone thinks they can just use such vulgar language in this discussion and then act as if they are a perfect little angel is ludicrous. I am not sure what the word means to people elsewhere but in the United States it's considered vulgar. The fact that he would have the nerve to use it hear confirms what everyone has been saying. Thank You to LoveGame, NinjaChucks and Childfunk for your time and your point of view. It only confirms what I have been saying.(MoovieStarz (talk) 05:48, 9 April 2009 (UTC))

Canvassing
User Mooviestarz is continuing canvassing for this mediation to other users like Love.Game, Child Funk and Ninjachucks not to mention a complete disregard for the policies which make up Wikipedia. --Legolas ( talk 2 me ) 04:12, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Like I said I plan to wait on the mediator. What i did was not canvassing or whatever you want to call it. It was thanking people for defending my position as well as trying to make you understand it. We do have a right to chat with one another on our talk pages. These people understood what I was trying to say and defended my position to you. I just kindly thanked them for their time. And since you brought it up that I am chatting with others, I saw on your own chat page you were doing the same saying that I was bad mouthing you. Why is it OK for you to talk to others and not me. Very strange. Also I noticed you were talking to Enricorbit about me. This is the person I was having trouble with2 years ago at The Pet Shop Boy page. If he is pulled in as the mediator then nothing will be resolved. (MoovieStarz (talk) 05:36, 9 April 2009 (UTC))
 * Eric won't be a mediator, I won't allow him since he was involved in a same dispute with you years ago. Anyways I have had enough of your "drama". Opera's are never my kinda thing so I'm leaving this page. Waste of time.*Shrug* --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 06:01, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I personally believe that the message that MoovieStarz submitted onto "my talk page" is a weak example of WP:CANVASS as it both does not and has not influenced me to act in a "bias-like" manner. The message doesn't state anything directly relative to myself supporting one side or the other. Just to make things clear, I am not defending MoovieStarz, nor am I defending Legolas. I am more interested in how to resolve the issue as civilized as possible. childfunk. ( chat ) 05:59, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Child_Funk. I think you understand that all I or anyone else is asking here is to be treated like a human being and when we ask a question to get answers in a civil manner. I am sure if one of you guys was running this page, none of this would have ever happened. It's a pity that he had to lower himself to using vulgar language here. It just goes to prove our point. So Thanks again from the "Drama Queen". (MoovieStarz (talk) 06:15, 9 April 2009 (UTC))

Comment
I believe smaller countries certifications should be left on the page of the relevant single/album. With artists who go on to release multiple albums/singles it can become very overbearing. — R  2  16:52, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Exactly. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 04:13, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Somewhat agreed. Smaller countries should go on ONLY if they are popular (going to no.1 in that conutry--poker face - NZ), and the other certs. go on the main article.I am Rorschach (talk) 23:43, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Still Waiting
We have waited for nearly a month for a mediator to come and help fix the situation. Come someone please come to change the certification table to its original form. --Love.Game (talk) 10:41, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree Lovegame. I guess since this has to do with a music artist, they don't seem to be too concerned. I don't know. I am just waiting here in the background waiting to see what happens. I at least want to see something done about the foul language. (MoovieStarz (talk) 03:43, 28 April 2009 (UTC))
 * You may want to take a look at WP:MEDCOM as there is a list of active mediators that you may want to contact regarding this case. The whole discussion has gone well out of hand! childfunk  chat  10:09, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You might wish to consider filing a Requests for mediation, if this mediation cabal case has failed to deliver a resolution. AGK 14:54, 20 May 2009 (UTC)