Wikipedia talk:Miscellany for deletion/User:Rjanag/Latin phonetic method of Shanghainese

2007, the Latin Phonetic Method of Shanghainese was removed after the discussion by English Wiki. But I want to emphasize, none of people who voted for the removal speaks English.

This year, Mr. Ryulong asked other language versions’ Wikipedia to remove “the Latin Phonetic Method of Shanghainese” as English Wikipedia did. In Chinese Wikipedia, the Moderator called for a discussion just to show some respect to Mr. Ryulong, though his request was thought to be a joke. |The result of this discussion was: nobody doubts for the Nobility of this Romanization version of Shanghainese (“the Latin Phonetic Method of Shanghainese”). In the same period, French language Wiki started a similar | discussion and poll, Many people who can speak Chinese joined and voted. There were only 2 people who voted for removing “the Latin Phonetic Method of Shanghainese”, they are Mr. Ryulong and Mr. Rjanag.

Now I think we should find answers to following questions:


 * 1. Shall Other language versions’ Wikipedia follow and comply with the decisions made by English Wiki? If shall, I think the fate of Chinese articles shall be decided by Chinese Wikipedia.


 * 2. Will English Wikipedia not accept “the Latin Phonetic Method of Shanghainese” for ever? it was not qualified to be put in English Wiki in 2007, But, this is 2010 now, many things and stuffs have changed and they will be changed in future.

--ZHU Yeyi (talk) 16:19, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * 3. As the only Shanghainese language’s input system for computers until now as I know, Why this Romanization version of Shanghainese can not been put into Chinese input methods for computers?

Political stake
 * Due to a lack of education, many young shanghainese believe that: the Shanghainese is a language without a written form.
 * A software of Chinese input methods for computers refutes this hypothesis
 * As the government does not favor dialects, it satisfied with an absence or a desorganization of the romanization Shanghainese.--ZHU Yeyi (talk) 16:13, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * N.B.: I have not treated Mr. R as a communist, but Mr Ryulong represses the cause of the shanghainese dialect.--ZHU Yeyi (talk) 16:42, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

 Argument

1, In 2001, the sina.com( One of the largest Chinese website) recommends this project and really presented all.
 * 1: http://edu.sina.com.cn/l/2001-09-10/15828.html
 * 2: http://edu.sina.com.cn/l/2001-09-11/15919.html
 * 3: http://edu.sina.com.cn/l/2001-09-11/15924.html
 * 4: http://edu.sina.com.cn/l/2001-09-17/16274.html
 * 5: http://edu.sina.com.cn/l/2001-09-17/16275.html
 * 6: http://edu.sina.com.cn/l/2001-09-17/16276.html

2, In 2009, The sohu.com (One of the largest Chinese website ) detailed this romanisation, it is not a simple passage. He said that the romanization is well known.
 * : fawu(romanization) of shanghainese sohu.com

3, In 2006, the first international academic symposium for Shanghainese dialect has collected this romanization

4, In 2003, the first  Shanghainese input methods for computers is done on the basis of " The Latin phonetic method of Shanghainese" by Mr. ZXC. 吴语注音输入法 are a site of 中文输入法世界 it is not a personal site.

5, Newspaper (青年报) talked about this creator (M. ZXC) of this software. The site of this newspaper. [| 上海话输入法开发者]

6, You can download this software from these sites here:
 * http://down.tech.sina.com.cn/content/40553.html
 * http://dl.pconline.com.cn/download/51424.html
 * http://download.pchome.net/utility/lan/ime/detail-140158.html
 * http://www.greendown.cn/soft/11181.html
 * http://download.it168.com/400/410/81488/index.shtml
 * http://www.d9down.com/download/5643.html
 * http://www.mumayi.com/downinfo/4920.html
 * http://download.pchome.net/utility/lan/ime/download-140158.html
 * http://www.52cv.com/52soft/52cvsoft-1731.htm
 * http://www.wangtam.com/50226711/aeeee_154951.php
 * http://www.happydown.com/soft/soft/38211.htm
 * http://www.down117.com/Soft_info/Soft_info_14742.html
 * http://www.cngr.cn/dir/209/258/2008072932649.html

......
 * As these sites are numerous, you can also find this software by google. search 上海话拼音输入 or 上海话注音输入.
 * '''If this romanization is very poorly understood, why they download this software.
 * For those unfamiliar with the romanization, they can not use this software.'''

7, Many sites have taken this romanization. As I have listed.
 * http://365et.online.sh.cn/html/news/79247099-A6B1-4C85-B153-CAFB7A03F1F2.html of [| 上海热线 the largest site information shanghai]
 * http://www.sharechn.com/zone/shanghai/2/7/0/list.html [| 秀点]
 * http://www.bfbkw.cn/view/85006.html [|《八方网》]
 * … ... These are not small personal sites.

--ZHU Yeyi (talk) 18:52, 30 March 2010 (UTC)


 * You just don't get it ZHU Yeyi. There are rules here for inclusion that this method for romanization do not meet. And you have been just fighting to get this known for whatever reason there was. The Wikipedia project of any language is not a method by which to get anything known. Something has to be known already. There is no name for this method. It is merely one that has been proposed on a series of user-oriented websites in China, and you are attempting to do the same here. If this method has been written about in serious English, French, Chinese, or whatever literature on the standardization of writing Chinese dialects, then the English Wikipedia could host it. As it stands, this page has always been a method by which you can get knowledge of this system out to the public, which is not what Wikipedia is for.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龙 ) 19:15, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * it does not interest you, so this is inutil.
 * B.B.Queens, Yazima Beauty Salon, Crystal King (band), Age Age Every Night.
 * I do not know these subjects.
 * To me, these are commercial publications.--ZHU Yeyi (talk) 19:59, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Interest in a subject has nothing to do with why I am seeking to delete this page. It is a method you are trying to promote by having it hosted on the English Wikipedia. Articles I have written on Japanese music are in no way the same. Performing ad hominem attacks or comparing apples and oranges is not going to work here.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龙 ) 20:07, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * You do not understand Chinese, how can you judge a Chinese subject?
 * I do not know these subjects. I do not understand Japanese, and I do not judge the Japanese subjects.
 * A comparison:
 * | google Résultats 1 à 10 sur un total d'environ 11 400 pour B.B.Queens, (0,27  secondes)
 * | Google: Résultats 1 à 10 sur un total d'environ 323 000 pour 上海话拼音(romanization for shanghainese) (0,37 secondes)
 * | B.B. クイーンズ 百度一下，找到相关网页约2,720篇，用时0.046秒
 * | 上海话拼音(romanization for shanghainese) 百度一下，找到相关网页约251,000篇，用时0.059秒
 * --ZHU Yeyi (talk) 20:42, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Again, the comparisons are bullshit. 1,270,000 for B.B.クィーンズ, 311,000 for 上海话拼音输入. How should understanding a language determine whether or not I can decide if it should be kept, and why should Google France or Baidu's search results mean anything? Stop making bad comparisons because it's not going to change my mind.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龙 ) 20:54, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * : In this list (| romanization of chinese), one third or half less than 300 000 (上海话拼音 the romanization shanghainese: 324 000).
 * http://www.baidu.com/s?wd=%C9%CF%BA%A3%BB%B0%C6%B4%D2%F4 are forum posts and those cannot be considered good sources. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 20:56, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * baidu is a Chinese search engine for websites. --ZHU Yeyi (talk) 21:14, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I know that, but what I am saying is the option that you chose only looks at forum posts. If you look for the main websites, there is only 800 or so. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 21:17, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I have responded, among the external links that I have given, there is not forum (or blog).
 * sina.com and sohu.com are the two largest sites Chinese.--ZHU Yeyi (talk) 22:03, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * in fact, newspapers, television radio are controlled by the state, participants in the movement of the Shanghainese dialect can only use the internet. This is normal, the romanization is very active in the forums. but not only in forums. --ZHU Yeyi (talk) 22:14, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Stop claiming that the PRC government is trying to silence you via the English Wikipedia.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龙 ) 01:06, 31 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment:
 * You badly interpreted.
 * On the Chinese edition, anybody doubted on the nobility of this romanization.
 * (The Chinese team is accustomed to cover the Chinese subjects.)
 * The result (nobody spoke about the policy):
 * http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:%E9%A0%81%E9%9D%A2%E5%AD%98%E5%BB%A2%E8%A8%8E%E8%AB%96/%E8%A8%98%E9%8C%84/2010/03/11#.E5.90.B3.E8.AA.9E.E6.8B.89.E4.B8.81.E5.BC.8F.E6.B3.A8.E9.9F.B3.E6.B3.95
 * On the French edition, there are only you and Rjanag who voted against.
 * The result (the other French-speaking voters understand Chinese):
 * http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussion:Romanisation_du_wu/Suppression
 * I’m the creator of this romanization ? Have you to them proof ?
 * --ZHU Yeyi (talk) 12:04, 28 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment:
 * At last but not least, Why somebody fought against and suggested to remove “the Latin Phonetic Method of Shanghainese” just in English Wikipedia, not in Chinese Wikipedia, Obviously, this “somebody” knew people in English Wikipedia were not familiar with Chinese language and cultures, that was not Moderators’ fault, they were played by this “somebody”. Another instance, the long-short (romanization) version of Shanghainese is definitely a Chinese topic; however, there is no article about it in Chinese Wikipedia. The popular system had been removed but the non-popular system can exist until now, that was very funny. --ZHU Yeyi (talk) 17:17, 30 March 2010 (UTC)


 * (I suppose that, as this page is in my userspace, I could just delete it whenever I want. But then it would probably reappear in Zhu's userspace or elsewhere; perhaps we can treat this MfD as not just a discussion of the version of the page that's currently in my userspace, but as a discussion of whether this topic is worthy of inclusion anywhere in the project at all.) r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 20:48, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * At least I know it and I'm using it! Do not too no three JJ. --60.191.189.36 (talk) 13:08, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe your friends tell you: the Shanghainese can not write?--ZHU Yeyi (talk) 16:42, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment: The sina.com and the sohu.com which presented this romanisation are the two greatest Chinese sites.
 * External links:
 * fawu(romanization) of shanghainese sohu.com
 * 吴语(上海话)拼音 新浪文化教育fawu(romanization) of shanghainese sina.com
 * --ZHU Yeyi (talk) 13:20, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
 * And like I said, they only offer trivial coverage: the Sohu only gives passing mention and then a description of the letters, the Sina only gives a chart with no prose at all. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 16:10, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment:
 * Sohu.com really detailed this romanisation, it is not a simple passage.
 * Sina.com recommends this project and really presented all.
 * It is a series:
 * 1: http://edu.sina.com.cn/l/2001-09-10/15828.html
 * 2: http://edu.sina.com.cn/l/2001-09-11/15919.html
 * 3: http://edu.sina.com.cn/l/2001-09-11/15924.html
 * 4: http://edu.sina.com.cn/l/2001-09-17/16274.html
 * 5: http://edu.sina.com.cn/l/2001-09-17/16275.html
 * 6: http://edu.sina.com.cn/l/2001-09-17/16276.html
 * --ZHU Yeyi (talk) 19:24, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment:
 * Moreover, 吴语注音输入法 are a site of 中文输入法世界 it is not a personal site.
 * In the list of the external links that I do have give, which is a forum or blog?
 * Among your friends, how much people know the Latinxua Sin Wenz, Gwoyeu Romatzyh, EFEO, Chinese Postal Map Romanization, Wade–Giles,Yale ? --ZHU Yeyi (talk) 19:55, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That is not the issue here. The issue is that this content has no basis in fact and is merely on a bunch of community websites. Your clear intent is to have this content on Wikipedia. There is nothing out there other than these sites to show this exists and there is no reason to continue to host it on the English Wikipedia, even if it's only in the user space.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龙 ) 20:52, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That is the issue here? You must be joking.
 * The publication of this romanization by Sina.com is in 2001.
 * The creation of this 吴语注音输入法 website of shanghainese input methods for computers is 2004.
 * The first edition of “《上海吴语手册》” is 2004.
 * The romanization of wikipedia chinese is 2007.
 * --ZHU Yeyi (talk) 19:34, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Explain to me how this particular romanization style being published on Sina.com, a news and entertainment web portal, makes it notable. In one line, and in less than 100 English words.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龙 ) 19:38, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Ryūlóng: 1. If your Shanghaieses friends know or don't know several input methods is inthe debate this you bring their as argument into this debate. Personnally, none of my Chinese friend know neither the Bopomofo transcription, nor the Wades-Giles. 2. You are basically saying "out of the some sites talking about this method, there is no site talking about this". 3. It is the right of each user to keep content on its user space. Some keep Tutorials, some keeps articles draft. Draft don't need to pass all wikipedia criterias before. They can be poorly written, or they can be currently unsure about notability. That's fine. Yug (talk)  11:26, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
 * First of all, I'm the one who mentioned my friends not knowing this input method, not Ryulong. Secondly, are you seriously trying to compare this to Bopomofo, or to WG, one of the most widely-used transcription systems for much of the 20th century? And you are calling yourself an expert? r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 13:07, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

complain M. Ryulong attacked me systematically.

Today, he even thinks that an IP in China IP and in Europe are my two Sockpuppets.


 * 218.104.71.166 (in China) (IP showed up today after Great Guru edited a page logged in and then logged out and signed the comment made by Great Guru)
 * 83.145.72.70 ( Finland or France), (IP showed up today after ZHU Yeyi edited a page logged in and then logged out and signed the comment made by ZHU Yeyi)

Stop organizing this page.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龙 ) 22:50, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Ryulong, stop attacking me ! Please.--ZHU Yeyi (talk) 19:17, 31 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment:
 * You have badly interpreted.
 * In 2007, the English team made the decision without assessing the arguments.
 * This year, Mr. Ryulong asked other language versions’ Wikipedia to remove “the Latin Phonetic Method of Shanghainese” as English Wikipedia did.
 * In Chinese Wikipedia, the Moderator called for a discussion just to show some respect to Mr. Ryulong, though his request was thought to be a joke. |The result of this discussion was: nobody doubts for the Nobility of this Romanization. (nobody spoke about the policy)
 * In the same period, French language Wiki started a similar | discussion and poll, Many people who can speak Chinese joined and voted. There were only 2 people who voted for removing, they are Mr. Ryulong and Mr. Rjanag. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ZHU Yeyi (talk • contribs)

I have moved this from the history of Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Rjanag/Latin phonetic method of Shanghainese because it does not belong in the middle of my deletion rationale ZHU Yeyi.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龙 ) 22:52, 31 March 2010 (UTC)