Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics/Archive 15

Ladakh is FAC
Hi everyone! I have nominated Ladakh for FA. Please leave your comments and help it acheive FA standards. deeptrivia (talk) 19:54, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Ustad Bismillah Khan
Bismillah Khan is this week's INCOTW. I had just put the INCOTW tag when I saw the news of his death. Please contribute to make this a great article. - Aksi_great (talk - review me) 07:37, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

List of Protected areas in India
I created this list so that all protected areas can be viewed in one page, and can be updated easily. Data is from ministry website and is a year old, please help in expanding it and tabulating the raw data. Also needs standardisation of coloumns for different tables --Plane Mad 10:58, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Featured picture candidates/India-locator-map-blank
Please give your comments as to whether this picture should be removed from featured status. This is not soliciting your vote. Just an attempt to involve people who would have knowledge on the subject -- Lost(talk) 18:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

picture request for Romila Thapar
Hello, There a request put up for her picture on the article talk page --h y dka t  20:59, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Maneka Gandhi
An anon recently made this series of edits to the Maneka Gandhi article. Some are good, but most look like a whitewash. Can someone more knowledgable than I please sort through, revert the bad ones, and keep the good ones? Raul654 19:27, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Jimbo
Did anybody get to meet him at Delhi today? Saw him on CNN IBN.

Is the Bangalore meet-up given here, same as the Infovision conference that Sundar spoke of above?-- thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu Joseph18:13, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I didn't get to meet him, as (sadly) 5 people didn't sign up for a wikimeet. -- May the Force be with you! Shr e shth91 ($ |-| ŗ 3 $ |-| ţ |-|)  18:00, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Vandal
Please check edits made by Pilliap --Plane Mad 12:49, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

FPC of rainshadow region
Please comment on this. Its been up for 6 days now and the response has been poor, not sure what corrections to make --Plane Mad 13:39, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

IST, PST
User: Tobias Conradi has made a unilateral move from Indian Standard Time to Time in India. Similarly with Pakistan Standard Time. I have reverted both as I believe the name of the timezone is of more importance than a general purpose article. Comments solicited. =Nichalp  «Talk»=  17:55, 26 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Endorse revert, since they are both internationally accepted terms. -- May the Force be with you! Shr e shth91 ($ |-| ŗ 3 $ |-| ţ |-|)  17:58, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Setting the record straight
I have just finished going through the article on the Uniform Civil code. While there were many parts in the article which seemed quite communal and biased i need to tackle the most controversial and important one. It is a question of helping a community, which i do not belong to but which i simpatise with: The Indian Muslims.
 * The article on the Uniform Civil Code contains a section on Muslim Personal Law. This sections states that Islam came to India in the 11th century. This assumption is wrong and only meant to stir up communal hatred. Reasons,

Freehistory 03:42, 27 August 2006 (UTC) Rahul D'souza (freehistory)
 * 1) The 11th century marks the invasion of Mahmud of Gazni. Communal speakers like to associate the coming of Islam to India with Mahmud of Gazni. This is because they accuse him of being destructive and being an iconoclast
 * 2) They want to paint a picture to illustrate that from its roots in India itself Islam has had a violent existance.
 * 3) The truth about the matter is that Islam probably came to India in around the 7th or 8th century or maybe even earlier (citation needed) to the Southern most part of India, ie. Kerala. This state had for a long time traded with Arab tradesmen. These Arab tradesmen would often start families here. They are the ancestors of today's present day Malabary Community, who have adopted their religion into the culture of the area they have lived in. The Malabaries are far from the violent Muslims, that the communal elements try to potray, that are supposed to exist in India. This was probably replicated in other trading centers of India. Thus trade was the first mode of transport that Islam traveled to India in.
 * 4) The second mode was the Arab rulers of Sindh that came here in the 7th century. These rulers came much before the coming of the Afghans and Turks.
 * 5) Thus to say that Islam came violently to India in the 11th century is falacios and a deeps study into the facts must be studied before each of us forms our own opinion.
 * 6) I hope this message can provide a counter balance to any communal elements that exist here. I also call out to Indian Muslims to come out and give their own opinion on these communal elements, remember the only way we give into them is by fighting them on their own terms.


 * If you have any documented or reliable sources(Other than those Islamistan sites) that claim Islam came to India before 11th century AD, than cite them. You can also modify the article yourself, provided you cite the reliable sources.nids(&#9794;)
 * Actually it was my comment. see. I am extremely sorry that i forgot to sign the post last time. --nids(&#9794;) 13:40, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh! ok. Sorry for the mixup. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  13:58, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The best way is to clean up the article is to get hold of the law (themselves PD), and rewrite them here. Also get critial analysis from reputed newspapers and magazines on why the UCC is good/bad. Regards, =Nichalp   «Talk»=  13:33, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, Islam did exist in India long before the 11th century. The Cheraman Juma Masjid (oldest mosque in India) in Kerala is belived to have been built around 629 ADref-- thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu Joseph16:00, 27 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I guess that Quran was not totally revealed by that time. Moreover Shariat is based on Hadiths to a great degree. Hadiths were comprised only by 900AD. So, the Muslim law, as it was, will not be affected for any mosque which is pre-Shariat Islamic.nids(&#9794;) 17:09, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Need help on rivers
Someone has suggested that Bhagirathi River and River Hooghly be merged. Are these in fact the same river? (Note that there are two Bhagirathi Rivers mentioned in that article. Rmhermen 16:16, 27 August 2006 (UTC)


 * No way. they are common in a sense that bhagirathi is a tributary of ganges while hoogly is a distributary. I am removing the merge tag.nids(&#9794;) 17:06, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The distributary Bhagirathi River is the same as River Hooghly. The tributary Bhagirathi River is a separate thing. Best way to handle this might be to merge the information about the distributary Bhagirathi River from the Bhagirathi River entry into the River Hooghly entry and place a reference on the Bhagirathi River page to the River Hooghly page under the "distributary" part.

Indian caste system
I'm unclear whether this is the right place to bring it up, but from visiting some articles today (reviewing a 3RR block against User:Holywarrior) and from remembering past contact with this topic, I'm under the impression, that Indian caste system itself and a lot of articles in this topic area are in serious need of co-ordinated effort to make them more encyclopedic (and more correct perhaps, but I can't jugde that). If this is the right place to bring it up, I can elaborate, but I assume most of my concerns are self evident.

On a related question, I noticed additions of caste status to a number of biographies of Indians. Is this a good idea?

Pjacobi 19:17, 27 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, caste is a major Indian phenomenon. Caste status is good info to state, though most Indians are able to guess for themselves.`Bakaman Bakatalk 02:26, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Bangalore meetup
Good news guys. Jimbo has emailed me saying that he'll definitely meet us in Bangalore, no need for anyone to pay anything. Please raise your hands and let's start preparing for the meet. Someone should shoot for IISc as the venue, and let me try iiit-b. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 04:45, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * when is the bangalore meetup. Is there any chance of meetup in any other city.--nids(&#9794;) 05:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It's most likely between September 28-30 in Bangalore. Not sure about other cities. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 06:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I am trying a few contacts to look at IISc as a possible venue. The only downside is that it would be a virtual stampede although there are just a handful of people who even consider themselves contributors. Shyamal 09:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I will be there. And I guess I can get IIMB to host the event. Sundar, could you please set-up a sub-page for the meet-up? --Gurubrahma 16:26, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Blatant Vandalism byUser:Mahawiki on Belgaum and Belgaum_district pages - Admin intervention reqd
In spite of repeated warnings User:Mahawiki is indulging in blatant vandalism of the above said pages. He/she is even deleting references that have been cited by saying that Deccan Herald, Frontline, Hindu etc are not trustworthy. This user has blatantly violated every rule in Wikipedia while at the same time claiming to bring about NPOV in the article. Even his discussions on the talk page of the above said articles and on mine and User:Dineshkannambadi's talk page is mere trolling. He has even gone to the extent of deleting official/formal warnings from his talk page. Above all, he has unduly slapped me with vandalism tags for no rhyme or reason. He has repeatedly vandalised both mine and Dinesh Kannambadi's talk pages. I requested Admin Sundar to look into it, but looks like he is preoccupied with other things at the moment. I request any other admin to look into this matter. Sarvagnya 18:11, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi. Though I am not an admin I will try and sort out the matter. After all, it may not require an admin at all. - Aksi_great (talk - review me) 18:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Please. And thanks. Sarvagnya 18:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I am surprised by the allegations made agaisnt me.Deccan Herald is perfectly a kannadi newspaper and if its citations are allowed,plz allow Maharashtra Times and other pro-Marathi newspapers too.Dinesh has deliberately abused my state and my language so if at all I have trolled him,it was for a reason.I really dont know how important those warnings etc are.I was fighting for truth which this guys want to hide.mahawiki 19:49, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I have made some changes to both articles in question. I have kept the citations but toned down the disputed section. A fresh pair of eyes could look over the issue too (I think AreJay is there already). Mahawiki here has agreed to the changes I have made. Am waiting for Sarvagnya's response. While writing this an anon has started editing the article . I have a strong feeling it is one of the users tring to evade 3RR. - Aksi_great (talk - review me) 20:09, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * As for the anon edits, like i've already mentioned on Aksi's talk page, it was a faux pas. It wasnt intentional.  I dont see any reason why I would even deliberately make those changes anonymously.  I wasnt aware that I had logged out and hence the mistake.  If you observe I immediately logged back in once i noticed that i was logged out.  As for the issue itself, it is there for everyone to see and my version of the border problem is almost exactly similar to the version that Aksi has proposed.
 * As for the flare up itself, if anybody has the time and inclination, please go through the reverts carefully. You will find that
 * Mahawiki repeatedly reverted my edits for which I had even provided references and replaced it with his own for which he hadnt provided *any* references(in one of the two articles) and *just one* reference which didnt support his claims in the other article.
 * Mahawiki repeatedly kept deleting official/formal warnings I had given him using {subst:test}tags. Infact, even now the warnings I gave him yesterday are missing.
 * And not only this, Mahawiki has been spewing venom on both my talk page and User:Dinesh Kannambadi's talk page regarding this matter.
 * And even now, after I'd like to believe that it has blown over, he keeps coming and vandalising my talk page with idiotic stuff like "Sarvagnya caught with his pants down"(sic).
 * If all this is not vandalism, tell me what is?? Sarvagnya 21:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Link spamming by User:Padmanabhan1 and User:Krishnamjc
During the past few days there has been persistent attempts by User:Padmanabhan1 and User:Krishnamjc, who I believe to the same person, to insert links to a website carnaticindia.com into a number of articles relating to classical music. (See Carnatic music and Violin) This is a substandard website offering nothing useful to be included as an External link within any of the article. I have been repetedly removing these links and have warned the user(s) of the consequences.

The site has been created and published by the user (admitted by himself) and has Google adsense in its pages. I believe this to be a blatent attempt at link spamming. I need assistance from an admin to take some action on these user accounts to stop him from wasting our time. - Parthi 23:40, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If the user does that repeatedly, you could post it here. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 06:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Lacking Hindi, Bengali texts
Speakers of Hindi and Bengali please keep a look at Category:Lacking Hindi text and Category:Lacking Bengali text.

In case a text in missing in other language, please use Template:Lacks. --Explendido Rocha 13:38, 31 August 2006 (UTC) Copied from Portal_talk:India-- thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu Joseph 13:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Why redirecting of Swadhyay to Swadhyay Pariwar?
Why do any one assume that Swadhyay and Swadhyay Parivar are one thing? What I mentioned on Swadhyay page was not my opinion, it's the disclosing of facts. Since the matter is not in front of me now, I can't say what could Gurubrahma have thought being my opinion? Could someone copy-paste my text so I can recheck it. Swadhyay Pariwar is trying to monopolise the activities dictated in Hindu religious scripture Srimad Bhagwad Geeta. Search Google and you will come across Jain Swadhyay Centres. Since you say, even if my actions of reverting re-direction of Swadhyay to Swadhyay Pariwar were wrong, redirecting Swadhyay to Swadhyay Pariwar by Gurubrahma is also not a right thing. If one is conscious about wikipedia to remain an encyclopedia, one should not encourage such monopolisation of some dictate of Geeta and let the true meaning of Swadhyay be known to the viewers.

Hope someone will do the needful.

With Regards,

Swadhyayee 14:48, 31 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Hello, please check the history of Swadhyay. I haven't redirected it, someone else did it. Pl. get ur facts right before making other wikipedians spend their time in investigating the issue. It would also be great if you can spend some time in understanding how WP works. TIA, --Gurubrahma 05:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

"It was created by Pandurang Shastri Athavale (known as Dadaji to practitioners) in the 1940s."

Swadhyay was created by Pandurang Shashtri Athavale is a wrong claim. "Swadhyay" is a dictate in Srimad Bhagwad Geeta [abbreviation: Geeta] (See Verse 1 of Chapter 16). First 3 verses of Ch. 16 of Geeta state qualities of divinity that could be seen in a person possessing divine qualities.

Swadhyay is made of two words SWA + ADHYAYAN.

"SWA" MEANS SELF (OWN SELF); "ADHYAYAN" MEANS STUDY.

Pandurang Shashtri explained meaning of Geeta but that does not mean that Pandurang Shashtri created Swadhyay. Pandurang Shashtri himself in his discourses said that practicing Swadhyay was a way of life in ancient India. Means studying religious scripture was a daily affair of ancient Indians.

THIS CLAIM FROM SWADHYAY PARIWAR PAGE SHOULD BE REMOVED.

Further, Jains claim that they are different from Hindus but they also use the word Swadhyay for study of their scripture. "Swadhyay" is a Sanskrit word and followers of Pandurang Shashtri Athavale well try to stake their monopoly on anything considered to be pious and add take un-due credit.Swadhyayee 14:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Swadhyay_pariwar"

Can we write on Swadhyay Parivar page that it's not their monopoly?
To,

Superghosh for his asking on my talk page.

Thanks but no sir, can we allow a absolute false claim and just put a tag it is not their monopoly. I don't think, it would be appropriate. The present day followers of Pandurang Shashtri Athavale have been considering their activities super natural and resorted to violence when old Swadhyayees left Pandurang Shashtri for his wrongs and tried to carry on Swadhyay activities. One lady, Kantaben Thakkar was threatened to be un-dressed (remove her saree) if she went to take any Swadhyay centre of her own. Daughter-in-law of Prof.S.K.Joshi was threatened that she will be raped in presence of her husband and father-in-law if her father-in-law did not stop from exposing wrongs. Bones of old Swadhyayees like Vinoo Sanchania, Vinod Shah & Shakar Thakkar have been broken and ultimately Pankaj Trivedi killed on 15/06/2006 at Ahmedabad. Their killiers are Swadhyayee and have told in their confessional statement that Pankaj Trivedi was killed for protecting Vedic Culture. See their belief that Vedic Culture is their monopoly so they can kill anyone who they think is destroying Vedic Culture!!! What Pankaj Trivedi had done was exposing of non-utilisation of funds collected for Kutchch earth quake relief, Sought accounts of charitable trusts and filed a case for closing of a public temple created were Pankaj Trivedi was instrumental in it's creation.

The sentence "It (Swadhyay) was created by Pandurang Shashtri" is a false claim and grossly mis-leading.

What do every one think, should be done?

Swadhyayee 15:00, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Superdosh"


 * Without the sentimentalism, make a section on controversy. I'm also a Swadhyayi, but I don't edit the article.Bakaman Bakatalk 02:37, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean by sentimentalism? These are facts and bare truth. I also can't understand what you suggest by saying that you being Swadhyayee don't edit the article. "Swadhyay Pariwar" seems to be a protected page. Where are you from, India? Maharashtra ?, Mumbai? The perceptions depends upon what you see and what you don't. I have seen the things, Swadhyayees who have not seen and just accepted what Dada & Didi said differ in their perception as against who have seen or who are witness of wrongs.

Swadhyayee 17:27, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm an NRI, and I don't edit it because Swadhayay for me is 1 hour a week, and ends after the Yogeshwar aarti. I don't know or care about the goings on in the org. I'll clarify, I only go to Swadhayay for cultural reasons, and not for God or any other things like that. Bakaman Bakatalk 22:06, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Confusion over nouns
Can anyone clarify whether the B.Tech. degree is considered a proper noun and written as "Bachelor of Technology", or a common noun and written like "bachelor of technology". Another similar confusion exists over the proper/common status of organisations like HMC (Hall Management Committee) of IIT Kharagpur. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 14:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Normally, it is written as "Bachelor of Technology."nids(&#9794;) 15:24, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Gasp, gasp; resuscitate INCOTW!!
Too bad to see only two noms active and virtually no votes - is INCOTW dead? Please folks, either vote for the current noms or make new noms (though the latter wd reduce chances of my nom making it to INCOTW, it is ok; INCOTW shd be alive and kicking). Another unrelated observation: I find it highly unnecessary to have It's new on both INWNB as well as a subpage - the subpage hasn't ben updated in whole of August! May be it's time to just link to the sub-page from INWNB and not update it here? --Gurubrahma 15:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I would also like to echo Guru. Indianized kingdom did not get a single edit in entire week of it being chosen as INCOTW . And looks like the same is going to happen to this week with CII. We are regularly churning out FAs and DYKs but are wasting a chance by ignoring INCOTW. - Aksi_great (talk - review me) 16:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Saved CII from the disgrace...:( I think the problem is the policy of allowing only short/stub articles as INCOTW candidate. The previous policy of allowing any article demanding improvement was probably better. Participation was far more in past.--Dwaipayan (talk) 17:24, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. That stub rule was introduced by Ganeshk. Should we do away with it? What say? But there should be an understanding that already developed articles like Ahmedabad should not be nominated just to nudge them towards FA. That should be done only through PR. - Aksi_great (talk - review me) 08:14, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

How should we deal with new user
A new user Anil raaz (talk • contribs • [ page moves ] • block user • [ block log ]) is continuously vandalizing the Aggarwal page. I have warned him too. How should i deal with it. I dont want anyone to bite a newcomer, just to point him out his error.nids(&#9794;) 16:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * He's not familiar with the neutral point of view and our policies of citing sources. Do this: When he cites something new, challenge him to cite credible, independent sources. For aggrandizing edits, point the user to WP:NPOV and WP:AWW and give examples why his edits go against these principles. If he continues, mention that wikipedia has policies in place for suspending the editing rights of those who fail to adhere to established policies. And always try and steer him to an article talk for discussion instead of a user talk page. Regards, =Nichalp   «Talk»=  17:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

List of Indian postage stamps
List of Indian postage stamps is being put up for deletion as it has been empty for almost 2 years! Inviting all to fill it up with whatever they know. =Nichalp  «Talk»=  17:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)


 * India national field hockey team calls for immediate attention! =Nichalp   «Talk»=  18:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Category:Field hockey in India should help start the article off -- Lost (talk) 17:36, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Talk page spam
Even after repeated warnings by Nichalp and others, Vkvora continues to spam talk pages. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 06:26, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I've blocked him for 24 hours. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  11:45, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * He has continued his monologue on his talk page and even removed the block message.- Aksi_great (talk - review me) 19:22, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * That shows that he is against receiving negative feedback. He had also emailed me about the block, 'thanking me' for the same. This should serve as a wakeup call for him. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  16:56, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Pageview stats and referrer logs
Hi Indian language wiki admins. Recently, we added some code to find out the 100 most commonly visited articles in Tamil wikipedia and the most common referrers. This helps us understand the visitors and concentrate on the frequently visited articles so that we grab new users. I thought this'll be useful for other Indian Wikipedias as well. You need to make this change to Mediawiki:Monobook.js (remember to change "ta" to your language code wherever applicable). Once you make this change, inform here so that he can set up the database. Once that's done you'll get nice stats like this.

I've already sounded HPN for kn:. We should at least do this for mr:, bn:, hi: and te: (more active ones as far as I've noticed) apart from Tamil and Kannada. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 12:14, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

St. Thomas Mount
I recently merged Saint Thomas Mount into St. Thomas Mount. I have some concerns regarding this article:
 * Reading both articles prior to merging, I found that they seemed to contain contradictory information. St. Thomas Mount says that St. Thomas was killed by a shot of an arrow, whereas Saint Thomas Mount says that St. Thomas was pierced by a lance. Now which is correct? I checked External links and found that that the pierced by a lance version is found in the 5th link. But I could not find the shot of an arrow version anywhere.

Note that I have taken the information in Saint Thomas Mount and merged it into St. Thomas Mount. So the article now contains both versions!!
 * The article really is in need of urgent wikification.
 * Someone has suggested a merger with Santhome. Since they are different localities in Chennai (but may have a common history), I feel it is better they were separate articles. Any comments? The Silent Contributor 09:56, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Swadhyayee for one hour a week.
Thanks Bakaman for your being frank and sporty.

With due apology, I take liberty to discuss something that one may consider to be personal. Since, you said you are NRI & go to Swadhyay Kendra, I left because I feel that you are viewed or judged from the company you keep. I left more because, I prefer to be a sinner than hypocrite. I saw Dada using goondas in a meeting I was invited.

To me this was a medium of bringing back Vedic Culture or Ram Rajya for which I gave my young life at the cost of necessary entertainment, basic necessity, duty towards family, business and consequential earning and even submitting to blokes like people. There are thousands who did so.

I think, each one is right in not allowing this medium to rot. Where you see wrong, you have to speak that's your duty to your conscience and your Lord. I spoke, I am speaking.

With Best Regards,

Swadhyayee 13:18, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bakasuprman"
 * And your point is...? Please remember that this is the Notice board for India-related topics. Please leave personal messages on user talk pages so that this page does not get cluttered up. - Aksi_great (talk - review me) 14:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Swadhyayee, this page is for serious work. Posts such as these should be left on user talk pages. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  16:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Help with maps
Uploaded quite a few maps of regions for List_of_regions_in_India. Someone please add them to the concerned articles from commons:Category:WikiProject_India_Maps --Plane Mad 18:21, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Bangalore meetup details
Please add /Bangalore meetup, 2006 to your respective watchlists. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 06:31, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * will he be directly flying to bangalore, or will he make a stopover at bombay or delhi??nids(&#9794;) 16:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Devanagari use
Hi,

Can fellow Wikipedians please talk a look at User:ISKapoor's continual attempt to re-insert Devanagari on Chandi di Var and Bichitra Natak (see Talk:Bichitra Natak for the discussion). Aside from the fact that there shouldn't be such mass of text in the article anyway, there is no relevance in having Devanagari because it was not used in the original.

ISKapoor continues to reinsert the Devanagari based on the premise that it makes it 'more accessible'. Sure, Devanagari suitable transliterations would be better for Wikipedias based on Devanagari script, but they're not relevant here on the ENGLISH Wikipedia.

Please could users give their opinions on the matter. I have no interest in continually getting involved in reverting the page. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 20:40, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Discussion from Talk:INCOTW
Hi. There was a discussion going on at Talk:INCOTW which shouldn't have been there. As it involves a dispute about various articles, I am moving that discussion here. - Aksi_great (talk - review me) 16:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Vande Mataram, Jana Gana Mana
I'd like to know if the above two songs are in Hindi or Bengali or Sanskrit. There's a mini edit war going on on those pages(Vande Mataram, Jana Gana Mana)


 * If the songs are in Bengali, then the Devanagari transliterations on those pages ought to be removed.
 * If the songs are Hindi, then the Bengali transliterations ought to be removed.


 * If the songs are in Sanskrit, my question is "why do we need Devanagari transliterations for everything concerning Sanskrit in the first place?" Who decided and how that Devanagari was the 'right' script to use for articles concerning Sanskrit?  Sanskrit's association with Devanagari is purely a North Indian(parts of North India) phenomenon and even to this day majority of South India and infact many parts of the rest of India too, dont use Devanagari to read or write Sanskrit. Also it should be remembered that Devanagari was never the 'original' script in which any of the Sanskrit works were written.
 * Because of the ambiguity involved, my suggestion for articles involving Sanskrit is to do away entirely with the use of any vernacular scripts and stick to IAST, IPA and/or diacritical marks. - Sarvagnya 17:12, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

See | National Anthem. It says that, The song Jana-gana-mana, composed originally in Bengali by Rabindranath Tagore, was adopted in its Hindi version by the Constituent Assembly as the National Anthem of India on 24 January 1950. So if you talk about the song - Jana Gana Mana independently, it was in Bengali but then there are so many other songs too which are in Bengali. But if you talk about the song Jana Gana Mana - the national anthem of India, then it is the adopted Hindi version of the song. So it ought to be present in its full dignity in the Devnagari version.

Now about your point on Devanagari vs Sanskrit, I have a question. I have got a bad habit of asking to cite sources from you. Can you cite sources that say Sanskrit's association with Devanagari is purely a North Indian(parts of North India) phenomenon and even to this day majority of South India and infact many parts of the rest of India too, dont use Devanagari to read or write Sanskrit. Which part of North India does not use Devanagari for Sanskrit. And if some part of South India (which one?) and many (??) of the rest of India does not use Devanagari for Sanskrit writing, what do they use ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Apandey (talk • contribs)


 * Again, the question arises &mdash; where's the added benifit in having a Devanagari version (or any other native version) of the national anthem on the English Wikipedia? Whether or not Jana Gana Mana is in Bengali or has been transliterated into Hindi is immaterial.  As suggested above, I personally feel that we should move away from adding native translations/transliterations and just stick to English.  AreJay 01:35, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I was not aware that the national anthem of India was considered a Hindi version of the Bengali Jana Gana Mana. If (and only if) this is the case, then I understand why we might include both the Bengali and Devanagari scripts in the article. We can label the versions "Original Bengali version" and "Adopted Hindi version" or "Version adopted as the national anthem" or something like that. If it is also true, as some have said, that only the first lines of the original Bengali were adopted as the anthem (in Hindi), then only those lines should appear in Devanagari script. Either way, this article is about the song in both its original (Bengali) and adopted anthem (Bengali? Sanskrit? Hindi? Whatever is considered the case) forms. --SameerKhan 03:05, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Urdu translation of Vande Mataram
On the Vande Mataram article, people have added an urdu translation of the song purported to show Muslims' support for the song. Even if the article had to mention that many Muslims have voiced their support for the song, isnt it enough if we just mention that fact? If need be the translation can be cited or the link can be mentioned in the external links.

How is it relevant to have the entire text of the urdu translation in the article? In that case, how about an oriya translation, an assamese translation, a tamil one, a kannada one... there's no end to it.

To draw a parallel, Shakespeare's works are appreciated all over the world and have even been translated into hundreds of languages. Many of these translations may also have won awards or critical acclaim and hence may be more than notable. Does that mean we start pasting all those translations on say Othello or Hamlet or whatever? Sarvagnya 17:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the bigger question is what additional value are we getting with the inclusion of native translations for Vande Mataram or Jana Gana Mana. Unless we're talking about, for example, an original exerpt of Tagore's handwritten lyrics to Jana Gana Mana, which happens to be in Bengali-Devanagari script, I don't think there's any real value in native translations.  Perhaps the best thing to do is to do away with them as suggested above.  AreJay 23:20, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Sarvagnya that the Urdu translation is not relevant. Adding it only gives Urdu a strange status over all the other languages of India that Vande Mataram has been translated into. Whatever people decide about the Bengali and Devanagari scripts, I feel that translations into other languages belong in the respective languages' Wikipedia entries (thus, the Urdu translation would be included in the Urdu Wikipedia entry on Vande Mataram). --SameerKhan 03:01, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Sanskrit and Devanagari

 * If the songs are in Sanskrit, my question is "why do we need Devanagari transliterations for everything concerning Sanskrit in the first place?" Who decided and how that Devanagari was the 'right' script to use for articles concerning Sanskrit?  Sanskrit's association with Devanagari is purely a North Indian(parts of North India) phenomenon and even to this day majority of South India and infact many parts of the rest of India too, dont use Devanagari to read or write Sanskrit. Also it should be remembered that Devanagari was never the 'original' script in which any of the Sanskrit works were written.
 * Because of the ambiguity involved, my suggestion for articles involving Sanskrit is to do away entirely with the use of any vernacular scripts and stick to IAST, IPA and/or diacritical marks. - Sarvagnya 17:12, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Now about your point on Devanagari vs Sanskrit, I have a question. I have got a bad habit of asking to cite sources from you. Can you cite sources that say Sanskrit's association with Devanagari is purely a North Indian(parts of North India) phenomenon and even to this day majority of South India and infact many parts of the rest of India too, dont use Devanagari to read or write Sanskrit. Which part of North India does not use Devanagari for Sanskrit. And if some part of South India (which one?) and many (??) of the rest of India does not use Devanagari for Sanskrit writing, what do they use ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Apandey (talk • contribs)
 * Most of what I have said can probably be considered 'common knowledge'. If not, may be some linguists here(if any) can help us.  As for you, I request you to start reading up some stuff on this starting with maybe the this.  It not only mentions that several scripts were being used for sanskrit, but also the use of Devanagari for sanskrit is a very recent phenomenon.  Anyway, I'm interested in others' opinions also.  So let us wait.  Also btw, I dont ask for citations because i get some kind of thrill out of it, but because according to WP's policies citations are central to any article on WP.  Also I've always only asked for citations for stuff that is on the article pages(or proposed to be on the article page) not for discussions on talk pages. ---Sarvagnya 20:05, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
 * As to your question about what people who dont use nagari use, well, they simply use their own scripts. For examples Kannadigas use Kannada, Malayalis use Malayalam, Tamils use a suitably modified form of tamil script, telugus use telugu script... and so on.  Sarvagnya 20:08, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Tamil brahmins use Nagari.Bakaman Bakatalk 16:41, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
 * "Tamil brahmins" as a group do not use a specific script. Some Tamil brahmins use Devanagari, some use Tamil, some use Kannada/Telugu/Malayalam, and some actually still use Grantham. The association between Sanskrit and Devanagari does seem to be growing stronger, though. For example, the State Boards of all four southern states now use the Devanagari script in their Sanskrit textbooks for schoolchildren.  -- Arvind 22:09, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

is it a fact??
I was browsing through wiki and found a statement since even today many South Indian Hindu communities bury their dead. at. I did put up a fact tag there, but i would like to know about the factual accuracy of this claim. If anybody knows any Hindu family in south india and can vindicate or refute it. Thanks.nids(&#9794;) 22:32, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It is a fact. For example Dr.Rajkumar was buried.  Sarvagnya 00:08, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the answer. But the Rajkumar page does not clearly mention that he was buried. Thanks anyways, as there must be some communities.nids(&#9794;) 13:41, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Category diffusion
In spirit of WP:∫, I've diffused Category:Universities and colleges in India as per the guidelines. Now, I aim to diffuse Category:All India Council for Technical Education. There are many colleges affiliated to AICTE, but few have been categorized here. This category will go on to become a monster, if we don't start creating sub-categories now. I need suggestions for this. How should the subcategories be named? How's this: Category:AICTE-approved institutions in Tamil Nadu, Category:AICTE-approved institutions in Uttar Pradesh etc? utcursch | talk 15:01, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Satyagraha
Today (September 11) is the 100th anniversary of the first Non-violence movement started by Mahatma Gandhi. I proposed adding this on the "On this day.." section of the main page (see here), but it seems no one notices that talk page. That page is protected. Could an admin take a look? Regards, deeptrivia (talk) 16:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Moving IIT articles
A discussion took place in the IIT talk page, that resulted in the decision to move the individual IIT articles to their correct titles. For example, Indian Institute of Technology, Kharagpur needs to be moved to Indian Institute of Technology Kharagpur (name without comma). I have moved the pages I could, but need administrator assistance in moving the others. Can an administrator please make the following moves:


 * 1) Indian Institute of Technology, Kharagpur to Indian Institute of Technology Kharagpur
 * 2) Indian Institute of Technology, Bombay to Indian Institute of Technology Bombay
 * 3) Indian Institute of Technology, Madras to Indian Institute of Technology Madras
 * 4) Indian Institute of Technology, Kanpur to Indian Institute of Technology Kanpur

Thanks, — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 14:24, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Just curious. Why would you need admin assistance for this? The pages arent protected etc. -- Lost (talk) 14:34, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Because, it involves WP:CUTPASTE. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 14:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * And, I've completed the moves. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 15:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, got it -- Lost (talk) 15:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks from me too. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 15:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

India related portals
I have added three portals that I knew of to a new row in the collaboration opportunities table. Please add more if you know of any -- Lost (talk) 04:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I've added Kerala, Hyderabad and Tamil Nadu portals to the list. Portal:India's "related portals" section also needs to be updated when new portals are created.-- thund e rboltz(Deepu) 04:58, 13 September 2006 (UTC)