Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics/Archive 40

History of Pulicat
History of Pulicat is up for a DYK nom. Can somebody (if free) copyedit this article and correct overlinking and format references? I am tired doing so today, will continue tomorrow, till then can somebody else do it and help me out in doing so. ThaNKS. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 14:47, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Kalimpong FAR
I have nominated Kalimpong for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket ) 05:26, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Vegetarian labeling in India
Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask. For those of you who have recently lived in India, which labeling is in use in India for vegetarian and non-vegetarian products?

,

The only major difference is the color of the non-vegetarian label. I want to make sure the brown version (as described by Indian legislation) is correct before I replace the red version with it on other language Wikipedias. Thanks for any help! -kotra (talk) 15:32, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure, this is the right place to ask. The correct colour is the latter one, the brown colouring. Regards, =Nichalp   «Talk»=  15:41, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * But the border is too thick, and the labels are not present with any text. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  15:44, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I just checked a wrapper on biscuit and the label had the text of "vegetarian" mentioned below it. --GP Pande  talk!  16:00, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's consistent then. I checked a packet of oil, and there was no text. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  16:24, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I checked some products these are my observations:
 * The border is too thick for both. (please correct)
 * The brown one is the current one.
 * "Vegetarian" or "non-vegetarian" was not written under majority of products. (remove the words)

The details of products -- Redtigerxyz Talk 05:20, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Bru coffee sachets: pkd 09-08, nothing written below the green mark - veg
 * Kitchens of India: Mutton Biryani pkd 09-08, nothing written below the brown mark - non- veg
 * Kitchens of India: Pongal pkd 10-08, nothing written below the green mark - veg
 * Maggi instant noodles: pkd 09-08, nothing written below the green mark - veg
 * Haldiram's instant Bhel. pkd 11-08, "100% Veg." below the green mark - veg
 * Amul icecream: 11-08. "100% Veg." below the green mark - veg
 * Venky's chicken kheema: 11-08, nothing written below the brown mark - non- veg


 * [[Image:India veg label.jpg|50px]] Here's a photograph of Kellog's veg label. It says 100% veg — Lost (talk) 05:28, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks guys! I'll make the border thinner and remove the words "vegetarian" and "non-vegetarian". I didn't think they were part of the actual label, I had them there for easy recognition. But I had been thinking of removing them anyway since this image is used in other language wikipedias, and English isn't appropriate there unless it's part of the label (which it isn't). -kotra (talk) 05:44, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Also remove the white background. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  17:27, 8 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what you mean by a white background (the interior of the box is supposed to be white, and everything outside of the boxes is already a transparent background, at least that's how it looks for me), but I've fixed the border and removed the "Vegetarian" and "Non-Vegetarian" text (refresh and it should look different above). Thanks again for your help! -kotra (talk) 22:44, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I have gone ahead and made the changes: 1. Further reduced the thickness of the border, and removed the white fill of the square. Also added the PD-shape tag to the page. Regards, =Nichalp   «Talk»=  07:41, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, though I was actually copying the label in Lostintherush's photo: I think the border is closer to the thickness I used, and the white fill appears to be an actual part of the label. Are you sure the border is supposed to be that thin and the white fill should be absent, and if so, why? -kotra (talk) 08:18, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Hmmn, I went on a research spree:

From the above sample set, it looks like the thickness and fill are inconsistent. (This is WP:OR) Does this help somewhat? =Nichalp  «Talk»=  08:57, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) Thin borders marginally outweigh the thick borders.
 * 2) White fills outweigh a transparent background. Looking closely at why this is the case, I notice that all products with red backgrounds have a white fill. This is also applicable to pastel shades such as blue and yellow. I would assume the reason to be:
 * 3) Green contrasts better on white than red
 * 4) Printing costs are reduced by not adding white when illustrations are simple
 * Wonder why mayonnaise is labeled as vegetarian ? According to the rules, "any article of food contains whole or part of any animal including birds, fresh or marine animals or eggs or product of any animal origin, but not including milk or milk products" is to be considered non-vegetarian. 66.253.230.56 (talk) 09:33, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Good observation... I checked again. It's labelled as Garlic Mayonnaise. I also looked at the ingredients... eggs were not mentioned in the ingredients. Seems to be more of a paste than anything else. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  09:42, 9 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks much for the explanation! I agree that it should be transparent, then, and it probably doesn't matter if the border is your thickness or mine, since both are used. I've cropped the empty space a little on the right and bottom, so it's the same on all sides. I think it's done now. Thanks for all your help and research! -kotra (talk) 18:18, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Dāyabhāga, Vijñāneśvara & Mitākṣarā
Hello. I just merged the page histories of these wikiarticles to fix some cut-&-paste pagemoves. Can someone check if the accent marks and spellings are appropriate, please? If not, please move them to give them the right names. I don't know the language, so I can't really do anything there. Please help. Many thanks. --PFHLai (talk) 20:06, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The diacritics are unnecessary. Some editors try and play up IAST when it is not needed for a general encyclopedia. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  17:27, 8 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Nichalp. Where should I move them to?
 * Dāyabhāga -> Dayabhaga ‎?
 * Vijñāneśvara -> Vijnanesvara ‎or Vijnaneswara ‎or Vijnaneshwara ‎or...?
 * Mitākṣarā -> Mitaksara or Mitacsara or Mitakshara or Mitacshara or...?
 * I realise that the diacritics are not necessary but I don't know how the correct names should be spelt. --PFHLai (talk) 22:36, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Not sure either other than stripping the diacritics. Does anyone else know? =Nichalp   «Talk»=  18:59, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Trivia added to single use templates
Recently I came across new templates being added to Lok Sabha election results templates, which are primarily trivia content. They are not actually templates. They are used in 1 page, in most cases, or maximum 2 articles (other than the bots that discover them for various projects, red links, etc.). Primarily they are used in the general article on Lok Sabha 2004 elections, or the article for each constituency. Many of them have been tagged with Wikiproject India too (automatically, I guess). I felt that they were not appropriate and the content should be placed directly in the articles (if content itself is appropriate in the first place).

Category:LS2004 templates contains about 123 such templates for the 123 constituencies with results of 2004 elections. Templates that begin with 'LS' shows approx 145 templates that are in LSyyyy-cccccccc format (year and constituency). By the way, for the years earlier to 2004, there is 1 template for city of Jaipur, for each election from 1952 (other than odd one for 2 or 3 more constituencies overall).

Examples: Recently created Template:LS2004-Vellore is used in Indian general elections, 2004-Tamilnadu only, other than a single sandbox. Not all templates, though, are recently created. Template:LS2004-Ajmer is used in two pages Indian general elections, 2004-Rajasthan and Ajmer (Lok Sabha constituency), other than the bot searches and archives and was created in 2006 (along with tens of others). Probably it is these templates that have inspired the recent additions by another editor. I left comments on some of the recently created templates in the talk page, and also in talk page of the editor, but there is no response. The editor seems to continue addition and correction of trivia within the templates.


 * 1) These are not templates and hence are candidates for delete.
 * 2) These seem to have too granular statistics which may need to be formatted better within the article itself (see Point 4 within WP:INDISCRIMINATE).
 * 3) Finally, possibly this granularity is not appropriate in Wikipedia itself. Wikipedia is not the storage for such information, in my opinion.

If there is disagreement on final point above, then the information in the templates need to be moved to appropriate pages. If there is agreement on nature of content, then the templates can be deleted and the parent articles can hold the significant results only (these trivia can be dropped altogether).

I would like to hear comments regarding this before I take it to Templates for Deletion. VasuVR ( talk,  contribs ) 09:04, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I had seen these templates as I updated all those pages recently to add navboxes. My suggestion is to move template content into constituency page before the templates are deleted. I did one movement. --GDibyendu (talk) 10:56, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * They need to be merged. It's pretty useless otherwise. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  17:30, 8 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you GDibyendu and Nichalp. Here is an update on some actions I have taken.
 * Substituted the templates in the state level articles, like Indian general elections, 2004-Tamilnadu. In this case, the data was transcluded into this 1 article only. Hence templates can be deleted.
 * In other cases they were used in 2 pages. The state level pages and the individual constituency page. I initially thought I will substitute in both (did the state pages and 2 or 3 constituency pages). Later, I figured there could be sub-page so that this same data can be transcluded in two pages.
 * Then thought of different idea - to create pages like Anantnag (Lok Sabha constituency)/2004-election and transclude this into Anantnag (Lok Sabha constituency). State level pages can now use the first subpage for transclusion by code. Did this for about 3 or 4 pages.
 * Plans
 * Try to complete for rest of templates.
 * Notify the majority contributors, pointing them to this discussion, so that new templates are not created.
 * Nominate all LSyyyy templates for delete.
 * Nominate all template categories for delete after they have been emptied.
 * VasuVR ( talk,  contribs ) 09:30, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Kalesar National Park and Kalesar forest reserve
Anyone here knows the difference between the two?  Docku:  What up?  23:00, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * appear to be the same =Nichalp   «Talk»=  03:03, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Indian cities
There are some new proposals on WP:INCITIES. Please join in the discussion Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indian cities for the following:


 * 1) The languages that need to appear beside the name of the city in the lead. (Contentious issue)
 * 2) Reorganization of Indian villages -- if names of villages should be categorised at the district level instead of state level.

Input required. =Nichalp  «Talk»=  06:29, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Question regarding a photo on Commons
I am categorzing historical photos on Wikimedia commons. The descriprion of this is: "the Indian Count Radscha I.P. Bahadur on visit in Berlin (1930). His fortune is about some millions of German marks." Who could it be? - --Lucarelli (talk) 00:12, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * There were plenty of Maharajahs at that time. Could very well be one- Ravichandar My coffee shop 07:27, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Very difficult to ascertain. Bahadur is most probably a title. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  07:49, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * There were four different kinds of titles awarded in British India. Rao Bahadur or Rai Bahadur, Rao Sahib, Diwan Bahadur and Khan Bahadur. So, most probably, it is a title. But from the user's suggestion that it was a Count, I feel that it must be some Raja or Zamindar.- Ravichandar My coffee shop 09:31, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Hey, what does Radsha mean? Is it "Raja", instead- Ravichandar My coffee shop 09:32, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes. You can use translate.google.com to translate from German.--GDibyendu (talk) 09:48, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Going by his initial I.P., I guess it's Rao Bahadur P. I. Chinnaswamy Pillai. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 13:56, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * This article about a German magazine uses the term "Radscha Yoga", most probably a German pronunciation of "Raja yoga". I guess "Radscha" could be "Raja"- Ravichandar My coffee shop 15:37, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

For all readers of the INB, this request has to do with the German Federal Archive releasing 100,000 of its images under the creative commons licence. Read more here: commons:Commons:Bundesarchiv. We need to do something similar in India. =Nichalp  «Talk»=  08:36, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Meetup at Chennai
Hi friends! I was fortunate enough to meet Jimmy Wales and Sue Gardner at the Knowledge Foundation, Chennai. I was requested by Mr.Kiruba Shankar to take a session for newbies to Wikipedia and I took a hour-long session.- Ravichandar My coffee shop 12:50, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Cool any pics? =Nichalp   «Talk»=  16:44, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * They are here. Regards, Ganeshk  ( talk ) 03:11, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Migosh, I expected them to turn out better. Anyway, does the copyright license allow me to upload one of them and put it on my userpage. I don't know who this "Jaggy" is- Ravichandar My coffee shop 14:20, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The copyright is CC attribution non-commercial. It is not compatible with Wikipedia (answer is no, you cannot upload it to your userpage). Hindu managed to publish one of the pics without any attribution. Regards, Ganeshk  ( talk ) 14:40, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh, that's bad :-( I would've liked to have one on my userpage. Anyway, thanks for clarifying :-)- Ravichandar My coffee shop 15:38, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * You can write to author to release one of the images (as CC Attrib Commercial) for use here. Sometimes you get lucky. Regards, Ganeshk  ( talk ) 16:43, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Meetup at Bangalore
Hi, a bunch of us met Sue Gardner and Jimmy Wales in Bangalore during a meetup organised by CIS. User:Arunram, User:HPN, User:Aksi great, Anoop from Malayalam Wiki, and Arjun from Telugu Wiki also participated. We met with Sue for more than an hour and had discussions amongst us too. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 14:06, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I didnt know :( --  Tinu  Cherian  - 14:38, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Tinu, Please subscribe to wikimediaindia-l mailing list to get these details. Regards, Ganeshk  ( talk ) 14:45, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I am, but missed the mail due to a filter in my mailbox :( --  Tinu  Cherian  - 15:45, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

List of Indian state and union territory capitals
This article currently does not have the criterias to be maintained as an FL. If I still do not believe that this article has FL criteria in 4 days, I will be nominating it for featured list removal. Good luck. --  SRE.K.A nnoyomous .L. 24 [c] 22:12, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Indian Wikipedians by no of edits
This is a list of Wikipedians from India or of Indian orgin, ordered by total number of edits in English language Wikipedia. Source: WP:EDITS as of November 20, 2008.

This is just for statistical purposes. --  Tinu  Cherian  - 09:38, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Some Non-Indians interested in India related content, also featured in WP:EDITS. We thank you for your kind efforts.

Section Break

 * Good job! The number of admins are greater than I had initially thought. --GP <font color="black" face="cursive">Pande  talk!  10:48, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. There could be more. I read here that there were some 15 odd Indian admins in 2007. I had to hunt all our WT:INB archive pages and Category:Indian Wikipedians to find who were very active initially also and to check them with WP:EDITS page. Please add if you know / find more people. Looks like some people are not active now a days -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 11:10, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the list. Ramasarrow, Shreshth91 lost their adminship. KRS gave up her admin post in 2004, Chancemill, Pamri and Samir are other Indian admins. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  11:45, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Intriguing list! Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:43, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * FWIW, the last I checked, I had sysop rights too. :-) -- Sundar \talk \contribs 13:31, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * :P yes Sundar, I knew it but somehow missed it . Dont block me for this mistake :) -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 13:53, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Heh. I won't. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 14:02, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Are Soman and Fowler&fowler Indian or of Indian origin?
 * I always thought 'Indian' was a state of mind! --Regents Park (bail out your boat) 22:19, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, didn't see this. Sure, you can put me back in.  :)  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  20:42, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks anyway! --Bhadani (talk) 17:46, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * There are few others (including Soman and Fowler perhaps) that are not of Indian origin. So it is best to say this is a list of editors that are interested in and contribute regularly to Indian topics and articles on Wikipedia. <b style="color:teal;">Gizza</b><sup style="color:teal;">Discuss  <b style="color:teal;">&#169;</b> 22:09, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If possible, more valuable information can be added like the number of FA's and GA's that each editors has written/significantly contributed to. <b style="color:teal;">Gizza</b><sup style="color:teal;">Discuss  <b style="color:teal;">&#169;</b> 22:14, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * There is also admin who has been around for six years. Ragib is also a valuable contributor.  =Nichalp   «Talk»=  05:50, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No harm intended but Rajib is from Bangladesh right? Ofcourse, He is very good contributor -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 06:55, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, but he contributes a lot of India-related content, so therefore listed his name as an honorary member. PS There is also . =Nichalp   «Talk»=  11:37, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Added a few Non-Indians interested in India related content, also featured in WP:EDITS. Feel free to add those you know -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 13:06, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Good job! :-) By the way, User:Taprobanus has been contributing a great deal to articles on India and Sri Lanka and had listed himself in INTN. I presume that he is not listed here because he has neither listed himself as an Indian Wikipedian nor added WP:IN userbox and hence is not present in Category:Indian Wikipedians.- Ravichandar <sub style="color:aqua; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My coffee shop 04:47, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I was wondering how I was not in Category:Indian Wikipedians list. It seems that User IND Citiz did not have a link to Category:Indian Wikipedians as proclaimed by the cat page. Added one. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 05:29, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Even User india was missing. Added link. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 05:44, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Don't forget, another admin. =Nichalp  «Talk»=  13:57, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Added -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 17:50, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Is Gorkhapedia a reliable source?
Kalimpong is on FAR for lack of reliable sources. While doing google search I landed on Gorkhapedia. The website seems to be very neatly maintained but as like Wikipedia – is free to edit for anyone. The Kalimpong page contains loads of encyclopedic information which can act as source for article on WP. These type of information are usually present on travel websites considered not reliable on WP for FA class article. Just wanted to check if Gorkhapedia can be considered a reliable source? --<font color="red" face="cursive">GP <font color="black" face="cursive">Pande  talk!  10:50, 8 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I think not. (Wikipedia is not considered a reliable source either.) However, one could use Gorkhapedia for adding non-controversial information to the article (material that does not need to be cited) that may be missing or for finding sources for other material. --Regents Park (bail out your boat) 15:29, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Wikis are not reliable source.  Otolemur crassicaudatus  (talk) 20:23, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Wikis aren't reliable at all.  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket ) 07:01, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Including Wikipedia ( Use only at your own risk ) :) -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 06:43, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Per above. ;) Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:40, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok. Just wanted to check. --<font color="red" face="cursive">GP <font color="black" face="cursive">Pande 09:00, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia Academy @ Chennai.
Wikipedia Academy @ Chennai went well, thanks to the efforts of Kiruba Shankar, the organiser and our dear Bhadani. You can read more here. ExpressBuzz, a New Indian Express publication had a nice write up about the Wikipedia Academy. -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 13:24, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * That is great. I wonder who this Kiruba Shankar is?  Docku:  What up?  04:19, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * User:Kirubashankar -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 08:55, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks. His talk page explains.  Docku:  What up?  16:07, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Telugu transliteration
I need Telugu transliteration for the following individuals:


 * Agaram Subbarayalu Reddiar
 * Bollini Munuswamy Naidu
 * Ramakrishna Ranga Rao
 * Kurma Venkata Reddy Naidu

Thanks- Ravichandar <sub style="color:aqua; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My coffee shop 18:26, 15 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Mspraveen ? -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 05:01, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'd approach Mspraveen, however, he is currently on break. User:Sudharsansn is quite active - perhaps he can help? Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:17, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Was it after this wrong block ? -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  -
 * Oh no, fortunately, not because of that. He had some stuff going on IRL...but it has been a while since I've heard from him - will check to see if he has an idea of how much longer he'll be away for (hopefully not too long). :) Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:35, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Pl. find the Telugu transliterations below: - Hope this helps. --Gurubrahma (talk) 07:13, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Agaram Subbarayalu Reddiar - అగరం సుబ్బరాయలు రెడ్డియార్
 * Bollini Munuswamy Naidu - బొల్లిని మునుస్వామి నాయుడు
 * Ramakrishna Ranga Rao - రామకృష్ణ రంగారావు రాజా శ్వేతా చలపతి రామకృష్ణ రంగారావు - Raja Swetha Chalapati Ramakrishna Ranga Rao
 * Kurma Venkata Reddy Naidu - కూర్మా వేంకటరెడ్డి నాయుడు
 * Thank you Gurubrahma. :) Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:36, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much, User:Gurubrahma :-)- Ravichandar <sub style="color:aqua; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My coffee shop 12:22, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Maybe some of you are already aware of it, but for those who are not, please take a look at Baraha (the "BarahaDirect" part particularly). It supports "Kannada, Devanagari, Tamil, Telugu, Malayalam, Gujarati, Gurumukhi, Bengali, and Oriya scripts". It is a super-simple and super-useful transliteration tool(supports unicode) and I've been using it for as long as I can remember. As long as one is sure of the pronunciation, transliterating it into various languages is a cinch using Baraha. It is especially useful when transliterating common names for which pronunciations are fairly well known. Since requests for transliteration keep cropping up from time to time, I thought this might be some useful info to share. Sarvagnya 21:13, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Sarvagnya!!!!! What a pleasure this is. How are you? The Bald One      White cat 21:19, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * :) We've met before. Havent we? Sarvagnya 21:29, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Old friends. Just seems like eons since I;ve seen your name on here! Merry Christmas! The Bald One      White cat 22:03, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Post-vandalised review of Gohil needed
Following a lot of unchecked IP edits/vandalism to the Gohil article, I've tried to recover some of the (tiny amount of) text from the history. Unfortunately I know nothing about the subject, or tribes of the Gujarat/Rajput (which the article describes itself as). Could somebody who knows at least something of the area please do a from-scratch review of the article contents (particularly the multiple conflicting "present kings").

I haven't found any references, but I'm possibly searching in the wrong language! Many appreciations, —Sladen (talk) 00:46, 16 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Some sources for anyone willing to help in the cleanup Reliable Sources, books. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  08:31, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

List of districts of West Bengal nominated for FLC
Please leave your comments here.--GDibyendu (talk) 18:24, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Has this photo been photoshopped?

 * Most likely to be a manipulated one -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 04:29, 19 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, the location is definitely not in India. It appears to be photoshopped, but if photoshoped, whoever the artist is has taken a lot of pain to ensure the reflection off the glass looks authentic. It's not easy to work with reflections and water. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  05:23, 19 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Yup. It is a software generated image using http://www.churchsigngenerator.com/ website. See the watermark here and you would realize how the image came into existence. --<font color="red" face="cursive">GP <font color="black" face="cursive">Pande 13:30, 19 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Wow! Cool software! And hey, Gaurav how did you find the it? Is there a thing like photo-match search (which looks for a similar photo on net which matches pixel by pixel!)?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by KnowledgeHegemonyPart2 (talk • contribs)


 * I just searched google for "Church of Sehwagology" and landed on the blog which had the image with watermark on it. --<font color="red" face="cursive">GP <font color="black" face="cursive">Pande 14:02, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I was just thinking on this...should this image be deleted from WP as it is made using a software and the website should be the one who owns the license for this image and not the user. I am asking this question as I am not sure if this image qualifies for WP:CSD ? --<font color="red" face="cursive">GP <font color="black" face="cursive">Pande 17:57, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The site says the images created using the software may be used without any restriction, whatsoever.--thunderboltz<sup style="color:green;">(TALK) 11:45, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Questions to be answered, in my opinion, are:
 * Does this add value in Wikipedia, when the generated image is not related to real event, attribute or fact?
 * Is it considered OR or not WP:N or not WP:V (user has created the image in no relation to an attribute or event, but just linking to a notable person)?
 * If it is to be kept, should the creator mention that it is generated using software, instead of just saying "Own work of uploader"?
 * If it is to be kept in Wikipedia, then can every user create their own slogans on any notable person, with this or any other similar software, and upload them?
 * My view is that it should be deleted. VasuVR  ( talk,  contribs ) 12:07, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Un-encyclopedic,non-factual and shud be deleted -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 12:47, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks I nominated it for deletion in Commons. --<font color="red" face="cursive">GP <font color="black" face="cursive">Pande 15:23, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Area, distance conversion: miles --> kms
I am working on creating articles on prominent villages/towns in Maharashtra. The Maharashtrs govt site gives the area, dist in miles while the Infbox Indian Jurisdiction gives them in kms. What is the tool to convert sq. miles ---> sq. km, miles ---> km. say 31.8 square miles -- Redtigerxyz Talk 05:10, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Search on Google led to www.convertunits.com from miles to km. 1 mile = 1.609344 or 1 km is 0.621371192237 miles. Same site mentions 1 square Km = 0.386102158542 square miles and 1 square mile = 2.58998811034. Probably you can use any spreadsheet to come up with quick conversions. VasuVR  ( talk,  contribs ) 12:03, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * How about using templates 'km2 to mi2' etc.?--GDibyendu (talk) 12:43, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * First time I'm hearing of a govt site displaying in imperial units. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  12:45, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Quite often you can use (or similar) to insert "31.8 sqmi".  —Sladen (talk) 19:46, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Related Indian physicists
Could someone here help with working out the relationships between the following Indian or Indian-born physicists? Parts of the relationships are referred to here, but I'm not entirely sure whether we or the Times have got this completely right yet. Any help would be much appreciated. Carcharoth (talk) 10:17, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * C. V. Raman
 * Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
 * Sivaramakrishna Chandrasekhar
 * Possibly others as well (but no articles yet)


 * Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar is the nephew of Sir C. V. Raman. I don't know who this Sivaramakrishna Chandrasekhar is. I'm hearing his name for the first time- Ravichandar <sub style="color:aqua; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My coffee shop 13:37, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It seems Sivaramakrishna is another nephew. There seem to be at least four members of the family notable enough for articles. From here we have: "'The fourth of five sons, he was born on 6 August 1930, a few months before it was announced that his maternal uncle Sir CV Raman was to be awarded the Nobel Prize for physics for that year. He belonged to the most distinguished family of physicists of India: another Nobel Laureate, the astrophysicist Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar was the son of another maternal uncle; an elder brother, S Ramaseshan was a well known materials scientist and the younger brother S. Pancharatnam discovered the geometric phase in optics, which is now named after him.'" We have articles on S. Pancharatnam and Geometric phase (which mentions it's name as the "Pancharatnam-Berry phase"). We don't have an article on Sivaraj Ramaseshan, but there is probably enough here to start an article (he was editor of Current Science). I'll try and do that at some point. Could people here who know about naming conventions for Indian names help work out what the article title should be? I see that "S. Pancharatnam" gets more hits than "Shivaramakrishnan Pancharatnam", and that "C. V. Raman" is used in preference to "Chandrasekhara Venkata Raman". Similarly, should "S. Ramaseshan" be used instead of "Sivaraj Ramaseshan"? The two "S. Chandrasekhar" ones need to be given in full to disambiguate them. S. Chandrasekhar redirects to the better-known one, and a hatnote directs people to Chandrasekhar, to which I'll now add Sivaramakrishna Chandrasekhar. Carcharoth (talk) 21:49, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar is the son of C. Subrahmanyan, a brother of C. V. Raman. C. V. Raman appears to be the paternal uncle of Chandrasekhar and maternal uncle of Sivaramakrishnan.- Ravichandar <sub style="color:aqua; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My coffee shop 03:28, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Please also see page 5 of Chandra's Royal Society Obit.  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  08:13, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Mumbai attacks
I've finally managed to upload some free images. See Talk:November_2008_Mumbai_attacks for the links. =Nichalp  «Talk»=  14:42, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Great work, Nichalp!  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  13:45, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

GoI released Images - Copyright status
Hi... having seen the number of images being uploaded (and removed) with the logic being Public Domain due to the RTI act, could someone provide any info about the copyright status of information, images and videos released by Governmental agencies. Do they become free/PD use under RTI or any other act, or do they still have a copyright?

I have also mailed ppl in the National Information Commission (a lot of people!!) about this issue, with no reply yet.

Anyone with info, plz help. If you do know anyone in the NIC/CIC, that would also help I guess... I think it will definitely help in improving the India related image base (especially for the Military related domain where I edit, where most images are govt releases).

Thanks <font face="Georgia" size="3">Sniperz 11 @CS 05:10, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * No, as per the Indian Copyright Act, 1957 all government works are copyrighted, and therefore not in public domain.
 * However, I note that the terms and conditions of the works of the Government of Maharashtra are almost similar to the Creative Commons v3.0, licence, and raised the issue the other day here: Media copyright questions. I have mailed the concerned representatives of the Maharashtra government, but...............we all know how babus respond (if ever) to email.
 * What is in Public domain, ie not copyrighted, would be:

52.-(1) The following acts shall not constitute an infringement of copyright, namely:-

(q) the reproduction or publication of-

(i) any matter which has been published in any Official Gazette except an Act of a Legislature;

(ii) any Act of a Legislature subject to the condition that such Act is reproduced or published together with any commentary thereon or any other original matter;

(iii) the report of any committee, commission, council, board or other like body appointed by the Government if such report has been laid on the Table of the Legislature, unless the reproduction or publication of such report is prohibited by the Government;

(iv) any judgment or order of a court, tribunal or other judicial authority, unless the reproduction or publication of such judgment or order is prohibited by the court, the tribunal or other judicial authority, as the case may be;
 * =Nichalp  «Talk»=  15:41, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmm... pt 1 of what u posted interests me. What exactly does an "Official Gazette" mean?? Does it include stuff like official newsletters and publications of Govt bodies like DRDO, and does this also give a right to freely alter them, which would mean that we can use it as a free license?? <font face="Georgia" size="3">Sniperz 11 @CS 06:46, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

ISRO images - freely licensed?
I just saw this noticeboard and the above section GoI released Images - Copyright status after I emailed the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) requesting a free license for their images.

I also have seen images uploaded (for example: Image:MIPimage.jpg) with the claim that the Indian Right to Information Act places such images in the Public Domain. Since I found that highly dubious I tagged the image and removed the dubious license, but I see another editor reasserts the license and repeats the claim, without source. Could the experts here clarify this for the benefit of articles wishing to use Indian space images? I am not an expert at making requests, so if anyone would care to take over from where I started, the text of the email I sent is here:

User:84user/Sandbox

In the meantime I have retagged that image and removed the PD license and placed a note there to see this noticeboard section. 84user (talk) 15:16, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * RTI != PD. Government works are copyrighted with very few exceptions (mentioned above). Pure "information" can never be copyrighted (for example, the names of all the builders in a given area). Images cannot be posted under RTI as they are not "information", they are artistic works. However, government works seemed to be released under a licence quite similar to cc-by-sa-3.0, but there are no persons from the government to confirm this.  =Nichalp   «Talk»=  15:48, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the fast reply. I did just send a FYI to the ISRO webmaster in case there is a CC-BY-type license available. Maybe wikipedia might consider treating these images as effectively CC-BY-SA even without official confirmation? I was about to suggest this on Media copyright questions, but I see you already asked something similar so I will wait. Meanwhile I suggest using Fair use rationales and I have been adding empty   to several images, but (a) I am not keen on fair use as it discourages attempts to get a proper free license and (b) I am too lazy to fill them in. 84user (talk) 16:59, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No for legal reasons, we have to consider explicit permission, not implicit. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  17:29, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

In my request for the use of images from the ISRO website, I have always received a response which said that one is free to use these images provided that the line "Credit: ISRO" is added to it. I believe this is the practise that newspapers follow while publishing ISRO images. I have sent an email to PRO, ISRO to further clarify this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prad2609 (talk • contribs) 12:56, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Update: Did you send an email to info (at) isro.gov.in? I received a bounce when I tried on December 7, but I have just sent a second email in case their email system has been fixed. I am logging the details here in my Sandbox.

Timeline: 84user (talk) 17:05, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * 16:27, 18 December 2008 (UTC) (or five minutes before) I sent a repeat email to info (at) isro.gov.in
 * Sunday, December 7, 2008 2:43 PM (timestamp on email, so someone's clock is wrong) I received "Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender" in response to email I just sent 14:44, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * 14:44, 7 December 2008 (UTC) (approximate time) I sent the first email request to info (at) isro.gov.in (the box at the bottom)

Update2: Another wikipedia editor has messaged me to say he is able to go to ISRO and meet someone there in a month or two, and he is asking me for advice as to what to ask. I have invited him to come here. Email templates has a collection of example emails that can be used. shows a simple example too.

Could someone check my Talk page here and follow up for me please? My only experience in getting permissions from various organisations has been 100% failure: either no response, or "only non-commercial use", or "we are not changing our license". In the meantime the existing images will need fair-use rationales, otherwise someone else may just delete them. 84user (talk) 17:05, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

=Nichalp  «Talk»=  17:58, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with the sentiment about no response. You can assume zero response from government sites
 * There are some boilerplate permission templates here Example requests for permission, but they need to be customised for the creative commons licence instead of GFDL. Releasing an image under only GFDL is a bad idea.
 * I don't think a government organisation would opt for a generic licence that has untested legal enforcement in India (cc-3.0). Till we actually get a CC-3.0-IN licence (Lawrence Liang wake up!), we would need to apply all requests under cc-by-sa-2.5. Quote the URL here for the legal code: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/in/
 * Consent should be in this format WP:CONSENT
 * The consent mail should be either on the organizational letterhead (hardcopy) or sent from an official email id to permissions-commons AT wikimedia DOT org.


 * I don't think we can get any sort of reply through email from ISRO. I can try getting a written letter from ISRO and can upload it on wikipedia. Please, I want some clear directions. Should I get the letter in the same format as the mail and what if the concerned officer has no idea about GFDL or creative commons. Please, direct me in a general sort of request which they can understand.johnxxx9 (talk) 21:05, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

This is your letter of request to the organization: (shamelessly ripped from different boilerplace templates) -- Feel free to edit.
 * I have edited it to make it more like a letter for printing. Please be careful never to post your personal details (name, address) online in these forms - I have used placeholders such as "(email address)" and "(telephone number)". When I send requests I never give my name in any case, just my Wikipedia user name and an email address that is only used for wikipedia. 84user (talk) 20:06, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

(The name and address of the organisation you are asking goes here) Dear (name of person you are asking),

I am an editor of the Wikipedia, a multilingual project to create a complete and accurate open content encyclopedia. The English-language version may be viewed on the Web at http://en.wikipedia.org/. We gather information from many sources, and government Web sites are often particularly useful. As a unique and highly visible project, we freely and publically release our work, that it may benefit mankind.

We can only use your images if you are willing to grant permission for it to be used under terms of the Creative Commons Share Alike Licence India (version 2.5). This means that although you retain the copyright and authorship of your own work, you are granting permission for all others (not just Wikipedia) to use, copy, and share your materials freely—and even potentially use them commercially—as long as they do not try to claim the copyright themselves, or try to prevent others from using or copying them freely. You can read this license in full at: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.5/in/legalcode

That said, allow me to reiterate that your material will be used to the noble end of providing a free collection of knowledge for everyone; naturally enough, only if you agree. If that is the case, could you kindly fill in the attached form and post it to [where?]? We shall greatly appreciate it.

I can be contacted by e-mail at (email address), by telephone at (telephone number) and by post at: (address)

Thank you for your time and consideration.

I look forward to your reply.

Yours Faithfully,

This is the document that ISRO needs to print on their letterhead: Edit as necessary.

I hereby assert that we are the creator and/or sole owners of the exclusive copyright of WORK [ insert link/domain ].

We agree to publish that work under the free license "Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.5 India"

We acknowledge that we grant anyone the right to use the work in a commercial product and to modify it according to their needs, provided that they abide by the terms of the license and any other applicable laws.

We are aware that we will always retain copyright of our work, and retain the right to be attributed in accordance with the license chosen. Modifications others make to the work will not be attributed to us.

We acknowledge that we cannot withdraw this agreement, and that the content may or may not be kept permanently on a Wikimedia project.

DATE, NAME OF THE COPYRIGHT HOLDER

Scan it as PDF and mail it to permissions-commons AT wikimedia DOT org =Nichalp  «Talk»=  19:11, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * (I've edited and then wrapped both forms above in one green box) I personally never give out my name, address or telephone number in the emails I send, but if it's a printed letter given by hand that's different. The "link/domain" in the blue form above should be replaced by "isro.gov.in" for the ISRO website. 84user (talk) 20:06, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Clarification on Copyrights/Copyright Act/ RTI Act
In relation to improving astronomy/space articles in Wikipedia, I also had a similar discussion on a Yahoo! Group and put forth the question of copyright of content uploaded on Government websites.

A few clarifications on the discussions both here and the ISRO section:
 * The Indian Copyright Act has been updated several times since 1957, it is requested that you read the text of the act from this link.
 * According to Dr. Jayant Murthy, Professor, Indian Institute of Astrophysics: "Manoj can correct me but I believe that information posted on any government site can be copied freely. Attribution would be graceful but not required."
 * According to Mr. Manoj Pai, Secretary, Confederation of Indian Amateur Astronomers:"the Indian Copyright Act has since been modified several times since 1966. The last being in 2003. However, the current RTI Act, 2005 makes it clear, that unless otherwise specified, like under Official Secrets Act 1923, or have commercial value / trade secrets etc. most Govenment records whether in print or digital form are in the public domain. If these Government images are freely available on the website, then can be used. Which means, Prof. Murthy is right."
 * I would believe the above two gentlemen, which means that most of the stuff on Indian Government websites are as good as placed under a GPL license. Please make a call on this.
 * It may be wise to write to the Copyright Board in relation to this matter. The address is given in the above link.
 * In my communication and use of ISRO images, I have always received the reply that images can be used with "Credit: ISRO" attached to them. It's ditto for their press releases posted on their website.

Prad2609 (talk) 13:04, 19 December 2008 (UTC) Pradeep


 * Unless there is a explicit release of the pictures for commercial use (a letter/e-mail sent to OTRS, a page on their website etc.), we will not be able to use it here. We cannot make any assumptions. Please see Photo submission and Example requests for permission Regards,  Ganeshk  ( talk ) 13:28, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with Ganesh, and the assumptions made above are riddled with logical fallacies. Please, no assumptions'. Copyright enforcement legal ramifications, and we prefer to do things only by explicit permission, not implicit understanding. I request that no one upload images or media under PD citing the RTI. If needed, I can explain why the statements are fallacious. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  13:55, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Press Information Bureau pictures
Hi,

The GoI Press Information Bureau (PIB) website (pib.nic.in) has some pretty good photographs of the Freedom Struggle and the leaders (http://photodivision.gov.in/freedom_fighters.asp). These may be uploaded under pd-india license....

One thing to note is that many of the pics relate to pictures of Freedom fighters, taken after 1950 or so, so we should check for PD.

Just in case this hasn't been posted before...

Thanks <font face="Georgia" size="3">Sniperz 11 @CS 07:09, 24 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I am also a bit confused about PIB Images. May we have people who can clarify. Kensplanet  Talk  Contributions  07:30, 24 December 2008 (UTC)


 * It is simple. Go to the page and type the name of the leader - lets say Nehru. Select "Name" and "Any Word" in previous drop downs. You would land up on a gallery page. Click on the image you would like to know more to see the year the photo was taken. For example http://photodivision.gov.in/fwaterMarkImage.asp?imagename=n4505.jpg says it was taken in 1945 which means as per Indian law the photo is in public domain now. Images taken before 1948 have their copyrights expired and can be used here on WP. Hope this explains. --<font color="red" face="cursive">GP <font color="black" face="cursive">Pande 07:41, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The only problem is the images are available as thumbnails only and not full size. --<font color="red" face="cursive">GP <font color="black" face="cursive">Pande 07:48, 24 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Aren't All press release Images free? Kensplanet  Talk  Contributions  07:50, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No. See  =Nichalp   «Talk»=  10:48, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * By free you mean by cost or by license? PIB images are available under pricing schemes if we want the print copy and available on internet for free of cost. But copyright is held by PIB itself in both cases. --<font color="red" face="cursive">GP <font color="black" face="cursive">Pande 07:57, 24 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Do u have any official link for the copyright license of PIB images Pande?? I've been looking for it with no luck. Thanks. <font face="Georgia" size="3">Sniperz 11 @CS 08:03, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * PIB website about us page specifies that images can be used for academic purposes and other things. But no mention of CC license. Also, if you download any photo from Today's photo gallary section in the metadata of image you could see the copyright information. --<font color="red" face="cursive">GP <font color="black" face="cursive">Pande 17:16, 24 December 2008 (UTC)


 * OK. Better not to mess with it for 1948+ Images. Kensplanet  Talk  Contributions  08:07, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Next Thursday all images published in 1948 will fall under PD. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  09:58, 24 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I had mailed PIB day before about their image licenses.... got a response today, but not very explicit for use as a permission on wikipedia. I've asked for a clarification. Suffice to say that things look positive. Hope they turn out that way. Cheers. <font face="Georgia" size="3">Sniperz 11 @CS 10:40, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow u had better luck than me. I mailed them on several email ids and they did not respond. One of them even bounced. Good luck. You have to get explicit permission that commercial and derivative use must be allowed. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  10:48, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah.... thats why I asked for clarification. And yes, I blankt mailed them, and quite a few bounced. Luckily, someone was kind enough and diligent enough to reply to us nobodies. lets see how it goes. <font face="Georgia" size="3">Sniperz 11 @CS 10:53, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

List of Governors of Bombay
List of Governors of Bombay has been listed at Peer Review at Peer review/List of Governors of Bombay/archive1. Comments, Suggestions are welcomed. Kensplanet Talk  Contributions  07:32, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Gajulamandyam
Hi. I noticed that the article Gajulamandyam contains probably a lot of non-notable information. However, I'm not knowledgeable of articles related to India, so I think someone here should have look at it. Thank you. --Tomaxer (talk) 19:40, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Encyclopedicity of this image
The relevance of File:How much does your Audi cost Raj?.jpg on the article page Raj Thackeray is being questioned as being POV. Comments? -- KnowledgeHegemony talk 09:06, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It is encyclopedic. Shows public outrage directed against him. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  09:15, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Comes under WP:YESPOV. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 11:50, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * There are incredible flaws with the article, but the image is encyclopedic. But I note the general (yet fundamental) point: merely being encyclopedic does not necessarily mean that it is in compliance with WP:NPOV. Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:20, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * By which you mean, POV content can be encyclopedic? -- KnowledgeHegemony talk 17:46, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You can't apply a POV tag to a photograph. Photos are subject to subjective reasoning. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  17:59, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * To answer your question, there are sometimes views on a particular subject that may be worthy for inclusion in an encyclopedia. However, those views must not be given undue weight - if they are given undue weight, then that article is not in full compliance with NPOV. Therefore, while some content may be encyclopedic, it may not be in full compliance with NPOV as required. Again, it was just a general point worth noting. Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:36, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I strongly concur with Nich and Ncm. This image is POV only if was a photoshopped one. Image may be included in the controversy section of Raj article. -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 04:44, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I was the one who raised POV concerns and wasnt aware of this thread until I accidentally noticed it. As much as I dont like Raj Thackeray politics, I was begining to believe his page will possibly soon transform from WP:COATRACK to an Attack page if unchecked. It does not give me any great pleasure defending his article, but, for the sake of wikipedia policies. I agree the picture is relevant and encyclopedic. As all of you know, relevance and encyclopedicity are not the only criteria which determine inclusion in wikipedia. Yes, it violates WP:UNDUE, WP:NPOV and therefore WP:BLP.


 * Let us first not forget, this is the only picture (apart from his party flag) in the whole article (note that it doesnt even have his own image). Besides, the article is filled with more criticism than any other information. That is why, I believe the picture is in violation of UNDUE and NPOV.  Docku:  What up?  17:00, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Docku could you clarify your stance please? Your first and second paragraphs contradicts each other.
 * FYI, I, along with KHP2 and GPP, locked horns with Sarvagnya defending inclusion of File:Raj Thackeray as Hitler.jpg in 2008 attacks on North Indians in Maharashtra. For the record, I might agree the picture under discussion also might fit in 2008 attacks on North Indians in Maharashtra for the reasons it can not in his biography.  Docku:  What up?  17:09, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The case is not the same. One is a free image, the other not. It's not easy to defend a FU image. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  17:32, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I dont see how it contradicts. Let me try. My position is that the protest image in the absence of any other positive images along with ample criticism provides undue negative significance to the article.  Docku:  What up?  17:41, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Then, I disagree. To quote undue: To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. – Criticisms of Raj Thackeray is not undue, definitely not a minority view. Sufficient reliable, verifiable sources exists to ensure that this is not undue. Therefore for a balanced article on Raj Thackeray, a criticisms section appropriate to maintain NPOV. Now coming to the image. Images cannot be classified as POV, as images are fact subjected to interpretation. (To quote the clichéd adage &mdash; A picture is worth a thousand words) Whilst the text in the banner is Raj bashing, the subject of the image is a protest against the political class – and in this case Raj Thackeray. So, to sum it, this picture is a picture of public ire against Raj Thackeray's divisive policies in the aftermath of the terror attacks. To further augment my point, the author can claim copyright on the people protesting and holding the banner, but he cannot claim copyright on the banner itself. If just the picture of the banner was clicked, the copyright of the text does not belong to him. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  17:54, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

←Yes Docku, I remember you supported GPPande and me in our efforts to keep File:Raj Thackeray as Hitler.jpg, when it was nom-ed for deletion. However there is a flaw in the reasoning here. Just because we do not have a "positive" image to balance a "negative" image...does not imply that we remove it. -- KnowledgeHegemony talk 17:52, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I disagree. That is the fundamental premise of NPOV. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being judged as "the truth", in order that the various significant published viewpoints are made accessible to the reader, not just the most popular one. It should also not be asserted that the most popular view, or some sort of intermediate view among the different views, is the correct one to the extent that other views are mentioned only pejoratively. The most popular view here, incidentally, is the protest image. The minority view, mostly from the state of Maharashtra (I would assume), in favour of the subject (in the form of some image) is missing.  Docku:  What up?  18:11, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * If needed, i could file a WP:RFC.  Docku:  What up?  19:00, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

"It is encyclopedic. Shows public outrage directed against him. =Nichalp «Talk»= 09:15, 21 December 2008 (UTC)" - 3 students in an anonymous photo do not constitute "public". Further, I question the encyclopedicity too. I am not insinuating anything, but who is to say that the photo was not shot in the uploader's backyard? Photos like these are problematic at the best of times (more so, when it is used to support and buttress a certain POV) and run afoul (or come uncomfortably close) of WP:OR - one of our core policies. WP:OR expressly prohibits original images which "... illustrate or introduce unpublished ideas or arguments" -- the argument here being that the photo depicts "public outrage"? Well for every 3 people in that photograph, we see 3000 people showing up and cheering him in MNS' political gatherings. Also Nichalp, much of the "criticism" of Raj Thackerey you allude to is by political partisans -- a fact none of the WP:COATRACKs on the subject bother to address and merely continue to indiscriminately pile on every report that can be culled from Google News. My 2 cents. Sarvagnya 20:46, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) To shoot down conspiracy claims of a photoshoot in a backyard, the photo belongs to a stream of images of the Gateway rally on 3 December, taken by the author that is easily verifiable. So, logically matching this image to being a part of the photostream by linking the time taken and Exif details, any person can conclude that the images was taken at the Gateway of India.
 * 2) You misunderstand as long as they do not illustrate or introduce unpublished ideas or arguments -- please clarify what you mean by the fact that Raj bashing was ever unpublished? This picture
 * 3) Are you ignoring reports such as these? |mjE=&SectionID=b7ziAYMenjw=&MainSectionID=b7ziAYMenjw=&SectionName=pWehHe7IsSU=&SEO=Chief%20Minister%20Vilasrao%20Deshmukh
 * 4) much of the "criticism" of Raj Thackerey you allude to is by political partisans -- this was in the Gateway rally. Such banners denouncing him, Deshmukh, and Shivraj were all over the place. I also am sure that you must be aware of the anti-Raj SMS  that did the rounds days after the attacks denouncing the attacks. If you're not aware, please Google it for the text.
 * 5) Coatrack or not, news reports about Thackeray are not always positive, especially by the English and Hindi media. Raj has even banned the Hindi media from his press conferences. I would not like to comment on the Raj Thackeray article as I clearly feel it is not neutral and unbalanced. I'd prefer to stick to the topic on the photograph.  =Nichalp   «Talk»=  04:59, 23 December 2008 (UTC)


 * These type of arguments prompted me to nominate the image for deletion. So don't worry - be happy. More for happiness, read Maharashtra_Navnirman_Sena and Maharashtra_Navnirman_Sena, (its maximum I could get, really!). We are not here to play party politics. Help build articles. If you think the article is biased, help add other side of information too. --<font color="red" face="cursive">GP <font color="black" face="cursive">Pande 20:59, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm quite sure you're aware of this image File:Jyllands-Posten-pg3-article-in-Sept-30-2005-edition-of-KulturWeekend-entitled-Muhammeds-ansigt.png. Controversial to the core, explosive to the very least. Just because an image is potentially explosive, it does not mean we cower down to extremist elements. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  04:59, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sarvagna and Docku have requested me to clarify the statement it does not mean we cower down to extremist elements – I assure you it was not directed at a single editor. What I meant to say was that comments and threats such as those made here, does not mean that the article/image should be put up for deletion.  =Nichalp   «Talk»=  06:02, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Nichalp: Thanks for acknowledging that the article is presently in a biased form. I have no problem in adding well-cited, relevant controversy to articles, especially to this one in a manner it does not violate wikipedia policies. All i ask for is a balanced article. your point that Hindi and English media do not necessarily write a lot of positive information about him is worth noting and interestingly enough, it is clearly reflected in this article which is also compounded by the absence of Marathi wikipedians (I guess) who might hold favourable opinion to the subject. We certainly dont want articles biased in tune with the kind of editors involved in editing them. I dont understand Marathi but I would have assumed Marathi media wouldnt probably hold as much negativity. My point is we will either write both or all sides of the story or none. That is my understanding of WP:NPOV.


 * I would also like to point out that WP:BLP policy is not lightly taken by the community as can be seen here, Protecting BLP articles feeler survey.  Docku:  What up?  19:40, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I thought this thread was about the image, not the article. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  19:44, 23 December 2008 (UTC)


 * it is about suitability of the image (in Raj Thackeray article) and its compliance of wikipedia policies. how are you going to separate the image from article once someone adds it to the article? It is not that simplistic. The image has to be looked at in context with the title of the article and what is written inside. As an independent image, who cares about its existence.  Docku:  What up?  20:09, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Suitability would depend on the way the caption was written. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  06:12, 24 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Docku said, "our point that Hindi and English media do not necessarily write a lot of positive information about him is worth noting and interestingly enough, it is clearly reflected in this article which is also compounded by the absence of Marathi wikipedians (I guess) who might hold favourable opinion to the subject".

Please note that the uploader of the photo is a Maharashtrian (user:GPPande). Also its wrong to assume and generalize that Marathis support Raj and North Indians hate him. -- KnowledgeHegemony talk 19:41, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with KHP2.. Not to forget people from south think people from Maharashtra also as North Indians :) Guys,Kindly leave the north - south -east -west - north east -south east - south west - north west - central ( any more ? ) divide and useless sentiments and Work for India  and Wikipedia too ! -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 07:55, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Article alerts
I have subscribed the India project to receive alerts for various events/workflows (such as deletion, featured and good content etc.). See WikiProject India/Article alerts. Please refer to this page for more information. Regards, Ganeshk  ( talk ) 00:40, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Awesome ! -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 05:40, 24 December 2008 (UTC)


 * This is an awesome list. I wonder how you guys really achieve this - really techie work. Can some structure be added to it? Just like we have a tabular box which lists all articles by importance and class ratings - can similar be done here too? Or maybe a small box in tabular format, showing DYK, AFDs, FAC, GACs, etc? Then it can be added to our individual user pages. It will save us from watchlisting most of these pages. Just wanted to know if possible, technically. How frequently is this page updated? --<font color="red" face="cursive">GP <font color="black" face="cursive">Pande 19:06, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It's getting updated once a day.--GDibyendu (talk) 19:39, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I wonder why Articles for deletion/Jhansi High School is not listed here then. --<font color="red" face="cursive">GP <font color="black" face="cursive">Pande 20:11, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, maybe something with bot. Leave it. I have created shortcut for this WP:INAA. --<font color="red" face="cursive">GP <font color="black" face="cursive">Pande 20:21, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The alerts page will only pull the articles that are tagged with WP India banner. Jhansi High School is not tagged yet. Regards, Ganeshk  ( talk ) 20:53, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Here is a tabular version (WP:INAAT). Regards, Ganeshk  ( talk ) 20:57, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Firefox and Chrome are displaying the table. IE for some reason is not. Regards, Ganeshk  ( talk ) 21:45, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Great dashboard highlighting activity within project! Thanks. --<font color="red" face="cursive">GP <font color="black" face="cursive">Pande 21:47, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Great dashboard highlighting activity within project! Thanks. --<font color="red" face="cursive">GP <font color="black" face="cursive">Pande 21:48, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The GA-nom list does not include the Raja of Panagal article which I recently nominated- Ravichandar <sub style="color:aqua; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My coffee shop 11:45, 2 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, if you check the contributions of the Bot Special:Contributions/ArticleAlertbot, the Bot hasn't updated since December 30. So changes after that are unlikely to appear. Kensplanet <b style="color:black;">T</b><b style="color:green;">C</b> 16:24, 2 January 2009 (UTC)


 * ArticleAlertbot is currently not running due to ongoing maintenance work on the toolserver.. Regards, Ganeshk  ( talk ) 22:23, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

English holly.jpg Merry Christmas
Merry Christmas everyone! &mdash; From St Nick. =Nichalp  «Talk»=  20:30, 24 December 2008 (UTC)


 * May lord bless us with peace and glory! -- St. KHP2 -- KnowledgeHegemony talk 20:36, 24 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Merry Christmas to everyone. May God bless us. St. John Kensplanet <b style="color:black;">T</b><b style="color:green;">C</b> 21:03, 24 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Merry Christmas!!! -50 St.--Dwaipayan (talk) 21:25, 24 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Happy Boxing day and belated Merry Christmas to all.Shyamsunder (talk) 23:55, 25 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Belated merry Christmas, and happy new year to all! AreJay (talk) 02:29, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Belated Merry Christmas from me too ! Wishing you a rocking smashing New Year ... -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 07:48, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Adding citation templates
Many of the articles under this project don't use proper citation templates. I would like to know if any bot is available, which can do this tedious work. Also if any of you are having any macro to replace normal citation with a proper template, please share with me. Have a great year ahead--Anoopkn (talk) 13:39, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I got what I needed from WP:CITE--Anoopkn (talk) 10:24, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Pashtun related to WikiProject India?
I am currently doing some housecleaning on WikiProject Pashtun. Can anyone confirm if WikiProject India has links with the project? It personally doesn't seem tenable to me, as I've been doing enough cleaning getting rid of the Urdu everywhere (for a long time the article Pashtun has the Urdu and Hindi word, but not the actual word in Pashto). -- Enzuru 20:31, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Not sure how this might be related to India. I don't think Pashto even has official language status anywhere in India (I know there are many others more knowledgeable than me on languages of India - so would leave it to them to decide). I personally think WikiProject Afghanistan and WikiProject Pakistan would be much more related than this project. Also, all these 4 projects are child of WikiProject South Asia - the parent project. --<font color="red" face="cursive">GP <font color="black" face="cursive">Pande 08:42, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, and eick, Afghanistan isn't even in South Asia. But we already have links with WikiProject Pakistan which makes sense, I just wanted to make sure taking off WikiProject India wouldn't be controversial. Here I go! -- Enzuru 09:08, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Oriya transliterators
Well, I need the Oriya transliteration for Annepu Parasuramdas Patro who was the Education Minister in the Madras Presidency in 1921-1926 and introduced reservations for the first time in India. And by the way, I also feel that it would be better if we have some ppl from Orissa over here. Transliterations are needed for Ganjam, Berhampur and other places in Orissa.- Ravichandar <sub style="color:aqua; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My coffee shop 07:17, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think we have any Oriya editor in our project. Such requests for translation are coming routinely on this page. Maybe we need a task force to handle them. --<font color="red" face="cursive">GP <font color="black" face="cursive">Pande 12:43, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * There is one, WikiProject_India/Translation. Regards, Ganeshk  ( talk ) 13:36, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I transliterated Berhampur and Ganjam using some transliteration tool, but I am not sure whether the transliteration is correct as I do not know Oriya. Transliteration tools often create a great deal of mess and if you do not know the language, there is the likelihood that the transliteration might actually be wrong- Ravichandar <sub style="color:aqua; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My coffee shop 14:32, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Happy New Year!!
Wishing everyone a happy and properous new year for 2009!! :D Best, Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:39, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

''' Happy New Year Dear Friends!!!! I wish for you and your family to have a wonderful 2009!!! Have fun partying and may you make many edits!!!   - Ravichandar <sub style="color:aqua; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My coffee shop  14:29, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Happy new year, friends!--GDibyendu (talk) 18:12, 31 December 2008 (UTC) '''Happy New Year y'all! :) I like this box.''' -- Ganeshk ( talk ) 18:47, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Just wondering...
I have never done such an article...But will a new article titled Pakistani involvement in Mumbai attacks survive Afd? Or will be dismissed as WP:POVFORK? Some refs I intend to use: Comments? --KnowledgeHegemonyPart2 14:16, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Wall Street Journal: Pakistan's Probe Finds Local Links To Attacks On Mumbai
 * Associated Press: Official: Pakistani confesses to Mumbai attacks
 * NY Times: Pakistani Militants Admit Role in Siege, Official Say
 * VOA: Pakistani Militant Confesses to Planning Mumbai Attacks
 * The Dawn: Link found with Mumbai attacks, says US paper
 * TOI: Lashkar commander admits hand in 26/11


 * Thats a POV. Pakistani involvement in Mumbai attacks should not be formed. Add the material to responsibility, maintaining NPOV. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 14:30, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * REdtigerxyz is correct. Pakistan and the 2008 Mumbai attacks is a title that doesn't prejudge.  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket ) 02:54, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Hey KHP2, nice topic, your article should be similar to U.S. government response to the September 11 attacks one. Maybe, Government of India response to the November 11 Mumbai attacks or something similar. Make sure you cover involvements of local Indians caught during initial investigation, replacements in Indian political circles, ban on JuD and building up of diplomatic pressure by international community on Pakistan and war-hysteria in "response". Covering LeT alone would cause POV issues. --<font color="red" face="cursive">GP <font color="black" face="cursive">Pande 15:25, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

2009 Guwahati bombings
How should one wish fellow wikipedians a happy new year, when 30 are injuried in Guwahati? Can someone please expand the article. I have run out of time today. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 14:32, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Omprakash Singh
The article Omprakash Singh appears to be asserting that the subject was a member of the Lok Sabha in the Indian Parliament in 1998, but I can't find verification of that exactly. Someone with a similar name and biography does appear to have been a member (see ) but that page does not show "Singh" as his surname. Can anyone take a look at the article and advise how this person should be identified? Thank you. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 06:07, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

History of Mumbai
History of Mumbai, a recently listed GA, has been listed for a Peer review at Peer review/History of Mumbai/archive2. Comments, Suggestions are welcomed. Thanks, Kensplanet <b style="color:black;">T</b><b style="color:green;">C</b> 09:37, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

List of Presidents of India
List of Presidents of India is currently nominated for a featured list. Your comments and suggestions will be welcome, particularly since I'm not from India and there may be factual problems that I do not know of.  C h a m a l  talk 10:04, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Just for information
Wishing all a peaceful New Year 2009. I also draw kind attention of all concerned to the following piece of news:

Young IT professionals at Chennai working on Wiki India. Let us ensure that proposed "India Chapter" has active involvement of all Indian Wikipedians including the real contributors. --Bhadani (talk) 12:50, 4 January 2009 (UTC)


 * This concept does not seem appealing to me. - Ravichandar <sub style="color:aqua; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My coffee shop 15:15, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Ravi, Any particular reasons ? -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 05:28, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Kalhan and other Jat tribal articles
I found Kalhan through Special:Random. As someone not familiar with Indian culture, my first impression was that the article didn't indicate notability. I recognize my own ignorance here, but there are probably other Westerner's who would read that article and go "what?" and tag it for deletion as non-notable. I looked at a few random articles in Gotras of Jats including Abusaria, Janmeja, and Bhadiar and it looks like many of the articles need cleanup so the non-Indian eye can tell why the subject is notable. Bhadiar does a halfway decent job.

Perhaps an overview article explaining the cultural and historical significance of the various family groups can be added to this and other Indian-clan-related articles. This article can then be linked to all the rest. davidwr/ (talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail)  23:35, 26 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I've done a minor tidy-up on Kalhan. It's a thin stub, but I don't see a problem with notability. However, the links to Sanyati and Virabhadra go to the wrong places. Someone with suitable expertise should fix this. Umar Zulfikar Khan (talk) 08:34, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Template:Infobox Indian Jurisdiction
Why and where has state and display of Infobox Indian Jurisdiction gone ? It used to display at the top of infobox in article earlier, see eg : Delhi -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 06:31, 5 January 2009 (UTC)


 * From the diff here, changes made in last 5 days are the reason (6 edits). State has been removed. See history and edit summaries as well. Hope that clarifies. VasuVR  ( talk,  contribs ) 07:30, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I had seen the diff :P ... My query was whether there was a reason for it being removed ? -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 07:56, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi. I removed it because I noticed that when the place's name was long, the title bar became very cluttered: You had the name in local script (possibly two), then the English name, then the state, then the country—all in a slim rectangle. See Kaziranga National Park for an example of what I was worried about. If we add back country and state, IMO we should copy the style at Template:Infobox Settlement and list it underneath the pictures/diagrams. I'll do that now if people have no objections ... Saravask (talk) 08:26, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, the name of the state should be populated from "|state_name" parameter and country ofcourse is India.  The state and country name under the pictures/diagrams is also fine enough, if you feel that is more aesthetic. -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 08:53, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks Saravask for fixing it -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 10:34, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Service Ribbons in the Indian Armed Forces
I have been trying to find out information about service ribbons in the Indian Armed Forces and have not been successful in locating a relevant article. Can someone point in the right direction? Would be a useful addition to the Category:Military awards and decorations of India category as well.-Deepraj | Talk 14:33, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Bot to create articles on missing settlements and places in India
Some time back, Ganeshk created articles on over 5000 towns in India with his bot, missing in Wikipedia. In June 2008, Fritzpoll and Blofeld proposed the creation of FritzpollBot to create over 2 million articles on missing settlements all over the world. The BRFA was also approved technically. Upon discussion at the Village pump,it was closed as approved per consensus of the community. Unfortunately Friz could proceed much further as he was busy with real life stuff.

Upon discussion with many others, I have decided to do this task atleast for Indian settlements as of now with TinucherianBot III. This is going to a mammoth task considering the fact that the total Number of inhabited villages in India is 593,731 .Even The settlements above population of 5000 people should be atleast over 2,00,000. The source data will be based on Census data] (2001), a reliable source

I am manually created over 1000 villages of Kerala on my primary account and was successful. This is an example Kallikkad. The articles to be created will be more or less similar to this one. The bot uses AWB and Ganesh's CSV loader.

Why should we create these articles with the bot ?
 * The task is immensely huge. Think of the task of creating over 2,00,000 articles.. Think of the human efforts needed for this.
 * Articles about verifiable settlements and places are generally considered inherently notable in Wikipedia.
 * This will greatly increase Wikipedia's coverage of geographical places
 * A new user wishing to write about one of these places won't have to figure out how to start a new article (the infoboxes for places can be complicated)
 * The articles will be very standardized as the example Kallikkad.
 * Most articles are build in Wikipedia from stubs stage( not as FA/GAs directly). The article is started as stub ones with minimum information available from census data like name,district,sub-district, state, total/male/female population etc. People are likely to people are more likely to expand a stub than start an article means that all the place stubs that would be created will be likely to get expanded in future.
 * The articles are all referenced.
 * This will help everyone to concentrate on expanding and not creating such articles.
 * The bot will subcategorise based on districts.
 * Stub templates: district level stub templates will be also added if available.
 * Once each state level articles are created, TinucherianBot will tag them for WP:INDIA and corresponding state workgroups and articles will be automatically assessed as 'Stub' class quality ( This should make NCMvocalist and other WP:INDIA article assessers happy :)

How does the bot create the articles ?
 * I with immense care and diligence possible, collect the data from the census data] and compile it in the required format(CSV) needed which is understood by the bot.
 * Data is then checked carefully again. This includes checking for disambiguation requirements, any spelling errors not consistent with Wikipedia's existing content, and any other issues.
 * Once the check is complete,I feed the data to be AWB based bot, creating articles for any article that is red-linked - it will not do anything is the page already exists, beyond write out a log to me of all places that it did not create.

The bot is only a tool for extraction and article creation. It still requires human input, but in a format where human interaction can be very efficient.The articles are only created state by state of India.

Before I go for BRFA for the bot, I am putting forward this for review and suggestions from my fellow wikipedians here. Thanks -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 07:29, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

 * How about adding sub-district information and village code too as these info are available from census data?--GDibyendu (talk) 07:58, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I find this task very interesting, and actually, the problem for FritzpollBot wasn't so much time as it was that noone came forward to supply me with reliable sources to be approved. This means that you can get me to do it, and I will quite happily do so - it also means you don't have to go through the same community discussions that I went through.  The only problem you have is your statement on inherent notability of settlements - this was heavily disputed when brought up before the community, as there is nothing in policy or guideline to indicate that it is true but if you can assure me of notability, then  by all means I am happy to lend my already coded/approved bot to this task, which follows the creation protocol indicated.  All I ask is that a consensus form as to the notability of these places, otherwise I am still happy to form these into "List of settlements in...." articles, which Blofeld can better describe.  Please let me know, as this might save you a fair bit of work! Fritzpoll (talk) 08:05, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sub-district information is already added ( Purge the page to see the recent data). I didnt add village code bcoz I couldnt find a relavent parameter Infobox Indian Jurisdiction . If it is made available in the template, I will be more than happy to incorporate that too.
 * "Places are inherently notable" is a bit tricky one. It is not unanimously accepted ( not liked by a very few) but it is the generally accepted status quo in the community. Moreover I dont think atleast an article of an inhabited settlement of more than 5000 people is not verifiable/notable. Quoting Sam, In this regard, "notability is a way that we judge the verifiability of information. I don't think anyone is proposing creating articles about places who's existence is unverifiable". Having said that, the consensus of the community is Cities and villages are acceptable, regardless of size, so long as their existence can be verified through a reliable source. See also Articles_for_deletion/Common_outcomes, Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(Geographic_locations) , Notability (geography) , Notability (Geographic locations) etc -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 08:36, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I have created a discussion at WP:Village pump (policy) to try to help determine this. At the same time, my offer of doing the bot-part of this job stands, as I will require no BRFA Fritzpoll (talk) 08:39, 15 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Some suggestions:

=Nichalp  «Talk»=  11:17, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) The article categories should be at the district level
 * 2) The article page (to be used as a template for pasting the variables) needs a copyedit.
 * 3) All categories be scaled down to the district level instead of the state level
 * 4) Sort out the disambiguation first. Should it be XYZ, India or XYZ, Indian state
 * 5) The article needs to be assessed to the WP State, WP:CITIES, the assessment date be added, and so on.
 * I would strongly suggest you draw up a bank of coordinates first and start all articles with coordinates. It will save time later The Bald One       White cat 11:27, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

As much as I want full world coverage, and full coverage of wikipedia, in reality creating a high number of stub articles may be problematic given the gross uneveness in access to information and undoubtedly the uneven way in which editors edit wikipedia. If we were to create an article for every place in India as a stub how long to we think it would take manually for editors to fully expand them all? How many articles do you think would attract Indian IP's or vandals which post unintelligible text into them as has happened already on many articles and going undetected? I fully support the idea in principle but in reality the uneven acces in information and indeed the number of editors willing or interested in expand them is shockingly low given the scale of the project. I must have come across thousands of RamBot articles even on the United States which have barely been edited since so if we were to do the same for India it is highly likely most will remain sub stubs for 5-10 years at least. So while I support the idea that a lot of notable information can be written for just about anywhere, the question is do we want hundreds of thousands of new articles with nothing more than a population figure sitting around for a long time without being expanded? As I said before on numerous occasions with Fritz if we can compile some sentences of information and start articles as meatier stubs rather than one liners I'll fully support it if we maximise the utility of it. If you could find a way to start the Indian villages with a bit more to them I think It would be a good idea. The Bald One      White cat 11:44, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

My main question is can the Kallikkad or any of the articles that will be created be reasonably expanded immediately by any editor by what currently exists on the Internet. If yes, then I fully support you. The Bald One       White cat 12:38, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

-- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 12:47, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * My template of article creation has only district level categories only. The state level cats are transculed from Infobox Indian Jurisdiction . Going forward, we should have only district level cats if "|district_name=" is populated in Infobox Indian Jurisdiction in the article.
 * Can somebody copy edit Kallikkad article, so that I know what are the changes to be made.
 * Indian census data doesnt have co-ordinates for each village. If somebody can match co-ordinates to each village, I will be very happy to intergate them.
 * The articles will be automatically assessed as stub class, with state level parameters.Is WP:CITIES applicable for village articles ?
 * "Sort out the disambiguation first." Nich, can you explain a bit further?
 * Can I guarantee that these articles will be expanded by other editors ? Yes !  WP have always grown like that! But by when ? It depends on how many enthusiastic and truly dedicated Wikipedians like Blofeld gets into WP in the years to come :)
 * I see no reason why stub articles should be discriminated against. Whilst I agree that it would be best if we start off will all data possible, I'm concerned about the excess load placed on a single user. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  12:50, 15 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Here are my two cents worth opinions, based on my general experience here and elsewhere.
 * Every article needs a godfather. Otherwise it is likely to stay as a stub. I agree with TheBaldOne on that. Very notable people are not even found on the Wikipedia, for example. Can we get hundreds of godfathers?
 * The chance of stubs being expanded - my guess would be 1 or 2 in 5. This is based on the many stubs that I have come across, many of which were created 2 years ago or earlier.
 * Census data, district, state - prefer to see some more. Some programmatic way (using spreadsheets or simple databases) of matching names with other data sources should give more representation. For example, pin-code from postal database, if we can lay hands on that. Geo coordinates can be more helpful, but getting a source would be difficult.
 * I am not against stubs, but a stub with such information is only saying "My name is xxx and I am at this location (district / state) and I have this one attribute (population)." The catch is that since this information is collected and matched, it could be useful for the 1-in-5 place that someone is going to start.
 * Can we build a set of "lists" instead, which editors can use to create articles? Along with standard copy-edited templates, interested editors can create specific articles, and add the collated information from the lists.
 * Lists can be lot less work, includes the collected information and reduces the number of stub articles we create. VasuVR  ( talk,  contribs ) 13:08, 15 December 2008 (UTC)


 * @Tinu See this diff for a copyedit. Yes, these would be supported by INCITIES. You can try matching the coordinates of the taluka with the village. As long as you do not make it too precise (>3 decimal places), we should be fine. Care should be taken for large districts such as Ladakh though. When assessing, make sure you also add the following parameters: "assess-date=December 2008", "image-needed=yes". Try also including the district official link under external links. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  13:20, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * @Tinu about the disambiguation. Many districts are dabbed by the term "India" or the state name: for example: Gopalganj, India and Aurangabad, Bihar. We need to be uniform at the district level too, because at times the district conflicts too Bilaspur is a good candidate. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  13:26, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I have edited Andoorkonam just as a temporary example as to what I'd support. If I was going to edit or start Indian articles I would start them like this. I think it is much clearer and a bit of info goes a long way. The Bald One      White cat 13:47, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * One another aspect of this task that has to be considered is the practicality. I would love to make the stub article to be something like this Andoorkonam but considering my limited resources and time, I am not sure whether it is possible for me to research and add such stuff to each of these over half a million articles. The existing data collection is itself a very tedious process from the available census data. Population data for each village is available per sub-district level. This means I have to go to each state > each district > each subdistrict level and retrive the data. This webpage has to copied to an xls ( as unwanted data removal is easier and can be converted to CSV ( comma seperated format). They have to be then checked and verified and then add district name to end of each line. Each subdistrict files have to be merged with state list. Considering the fact that there are more than 611 districts and on an average there are 25 districts each, you may think of how big is this task itself.See holds of geo-coordinates. At this point it is not practically possible for me to collect the geo cord manually for each of these articles.If somebody wants to volunteer this effort for a half a million villages, it can then be considered. Otherwise, Stubs or FAs, let us build the house brick by brick in our best efforts. If somebody can collect the geo-coordinates for these articles any time and if time permits, I can consider to develop a bot to add them later. As for Infoboxes, let us keep the standard of Infobox Indian Jurisdiction instead of Infobox Settlement per Indian cities MOS which is already used in over 10,000 articles -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 15:13, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

All I'm saying is that if you are going to create 500,000 articles then you need to consider how much work it will entail for editors afterwards. Who do you think is going to add find all the coordinates and expand them all? Even if Anemone Bot was running full speed in finding them it would take ages to chas eup every one. If it is to be done it really needs to start well and as efficiently as possible. Trust me if we'd started the communes of France for instance with adequate details using a bot it wouldn't be leaving us several years work to make them adequate afterwards. I don't think it is impossible for a bot to draw up a list of coordinates in list format for these places first. 15:42, 15 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr. Blofeld (talk • contribs)
 * Are we NOT going to create new information ( read as article creation), because there is room to add more information to it in future? That defies the very purpose of Wikipedia! article are always created this way...People create info of what they 'know' and others join to add where ever possible -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 17:25, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Tinu, what Blofeld is trying to say is that there is no hurry to get villages populated. He suggests that instead of doing a rush job, we take our time to get basic information in place such as the coordinates, PIN codes, STD codes, taluka and so on. Rather than producing under-baked articles which are going to be pretty useless, we try and eke out a more encyclopedic village article. For this project we can work state-wise, create a wikitable for each village, and ask Indian editors to contribute information for each village. Thus, data population becomes a collaborative exercise. Once the wikitable for a state is populated, we export it to a spreadsheet, and save it as a CSV file for AWB to do the needful. Does this sound more reasonable? =Nichalp   «Talk»=  18:48, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Exactly Nichalp. Trust me if it is going to be done, particularly on such a large scale basic details which are essential for place articles will need to be added otherwise editors will be in for a gigantic cleanup task later to ge tthem up to an adequate level later. I'm being honest, I've learned from experience. The French communes job is a perfect example of how mass creating shouldn't be done. There was this huge rush to get all the communes blue linked, every commune covered, but nearly a year later there are still more articles which haven't been touched yet with basic details let alone with adequate content and there were only 35,000 articles. It is a gruesome task adding basics like coordinates etc later, very very tiring work. The Bald One      White cat 19:32, 15 December 2008 (UTC)


 * BTW, I checked the list of villages under Thiruvantapuram district in census website. Some villages are mentioned like 'Alamcode (part)'. Does it mean that those villages are partly in this district? If so, how are we going to handle these cases? Second thing, it is possible to get coordinates from Yahoo maps or google maps programmatically (I am not sure how to do it exactly). However, for a bot, adding such info later also shouldn't be much difficult (in comparison to doing it first time itself). However, once we decide to go ahead, I'll suggest doing it for a district first (with < 100 villages) to understand the issues we might be facing. And about Nichalp's expectation on other editors to add info on villages: I guess there is very low chance that even for 10% of the villages any such info can be added by users, there are 50000+ villages for many states. Having said that, we can get coordinates manually too from yahoo maps etc., if they have such data. My experience is that they don't even have data for 100% of towns, so, there is no chance that it will be possible to find coordinates for all villages.--GDibyendu (talk) 19:50, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * We can use the taluka hq for coordinates. While precision is preferred, getting something off by 10 odd kilometres, wont cause too much damage. About the collaboration, we can start small, do a pilot for the union territories. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  11:29, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Well that wasn't the case earlier I find the coordinates immediately for some of the villages in Thiruvantapuram district. The Bald One      White cat 20:27, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Section break
I started some work on this. Here is what I got till now:


 * Census link
 * Census - List of Villages Alphabetical
 * Census - List of Towns
 * Census - List of Teshsil codes

I agree with the general sentiment here. We should gather as much data as possible on single page or a number of sub-pages before starting a bot run. Coords should not be a production-stopper. If we can find them, we will add them in, otherwise the rest of the information is good to have. I was really appreciative of the collaborative effort that went in to cleanup after the towns were created. We can do the same with this. Regards, Ganeshk  ( talk ) 04:06, 16 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I strongly concur with Ganesh. Just bcoz we couldnt find one piece of data at this time, we shouldNOT block the entire task. Let us build with the pieces we have niw. Let us collabratively work together to build the structure of foundation. At one point of time, Ganesh took the first step of creating the 5000 towns of India. As time progress new wikipedians will emerge to build the rest of the house.I have personally added lots of stuff to the articles ganesh created long back. Each time, when I check the article history,and see the Ganeshbot as the creator, I feel proud of someone who had a vision long back on this. Should we object the construction of the foundation of the house, cribing that we dont have good wall paints now ? Last time, we identified the missing state workgroups and created them. One of them was WP:BIHAR. A new wikipedian emerged from nowhere and started getting active in Bihar related content. We need to facilitate with foundation with what we can, not worrying what it may end up. It is good to begin with the maximum stuff we have but we cannot indefinitely wait for more stuff, especially when these can be always added any time. The same holds for geo-coordinates. Get the co-ordiantes manually, we have lot of bots to intergate the stuff into the articles. Together with Ganeshbot , TinucherianBot III and FritzpollBot ( the more, the merrier) , we will get the initial stuff in and others will follow. -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 05:00, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Tinu, let's start with a small state. Pick Sikkim for example. Like we had an assessment drive, we can have a similar drive to populate all the villages. On person creates the villages entries in the table in the project space, another adds the corresponding talukas, another the PINs, another the STD codes, another and so on. A single person can target 50 entries per day on a realistic figure. Assume Sikkim has 600 villages. We can finish this in 1 week flat. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  12:11, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree...Sikkim's a good start. For larger states, we can do this at the district level. Regards, Ganeshk  ( talk ) 12:58, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Hey Tinu, if the data doesn't exist it doesn't exist. Where possible I'm talking about as above, so long as it can be done quickly. The Bald One      White cat 12:23, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I strongly concur with Ganesh. Just bcoz we couldnt find one piece of data at this time, we shouldNOT block the entire task. Let us build with the pieces we have niw. - the community at large indicated disagreement with that sentiment over the summer, and no local consensus here can override that.  You have to slow down, Tinu and get more feedback before going ahead with this Fritzpoll (talk) 13:46, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Please correct me if I am wrong. Wasn't the community consensus to go ahead with this project? Regards, Ganeshk  ( talk ) 18:18, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Another piece of puzzle looks solvable if we can locate a table/spreadsheet which provides the information like which village belongs to which GP. There are separate documents which list GPs under Blocks/Tehsils and yet another one like Sikkim delimitation doc which lists which assembly constituencies are formed by which Blocks or GPs. If the missing link of village->GP data can be spotted, this path can be completed (Village->GP->Block->AC-PC).--GDibyendu (talk) 14:15, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes don't forget that actually by far the larger proportion of editors supported both proposals. It was the ones that strongly opposed that left more of a lasting impression I guess. These are the people wo seme to turn up at more recent proposals because they feel so strongly against it  The Bald One       White cat 21:08, 16 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Then it is our responsibility to point this page to these smaller portion of editors who are strongly opposed to it. Regards, Ganeshk  ( talk ) 21:21, 16 December 2008 (UTC)


 * From the page cited (which I know very well! :) ) - emphasis is mine

"Places are not inherently notable". I would say that this is the most convincing argument against running the bot. The community expends quite a bit of effort arguing about notability. It seems to have different meanings to different people. It is important to have standards for notability so that Wikipedia does not devolve into facebook. In this regard, notability is a way that we judge the verifiability of information. I don't think anyone is proposing creating articles about places who's existence is unverifiable. I find that Fritzpoll with the input of the larger community has made a concerted effort to limit the bot to creating articles of places that the community deems notable. With these limitations, the notability argument is moot.
 * I am not opposed to covering the world by lists, which was the stage we got to with GEOBOT before running out of steam, ans have actually said several times that I can save Tinu the work and do it all myself provided he can throw the sources at me. That means it can be done quickly and without unnecessary drama.  But the bolded text in the quote above is where the proposal to create stubs falls down, and why FritzpollBot gives you no consensus to do what is attempted here.  Lists, yes, stubs, no.  That's not me being opposed to stubs, just pointing out that you need to return to the community and change their mind.  Fritzpoll (talk) 08:29, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * So basically, what's a non-notable village? =Nichalp   «Talk»=  08:37, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * And that's the problem. There is no community consensus on what notability for a place actually means - when I raised this at the Village Pump only a few days ago, there was no consensus that there is inherent notability. And that's because there never has been community consensus on the topic WP:Notability (Geographic locations) is the best place to start with this, but the guideline is not finalised by any stretch of the imagination.  What this means, technically, as I have suggested in the past for GEOBOT, is that we need to get the community to resolve the notability argument before we can create stubs. Fritzpoll (talk) 08:41, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Coordinates
Does anyone have any lists of coordinates for these locations, if they are not (as I suspect) already listed in the GEOnet database? Alternatively, it may be possible to do something with sufficiently well formatted public domain maps, such as the maps for VDCs in Nepal, which were capable of being "decompiled" to provide locations. -- The Anome (talk) 17:52, 16 December 2008 (UTC)


 * When I created the town articles, I had used Fallingrain as a reference for the coords. If we can get the data onto a wikitable, we can use bots to pull coords from various sources or update them manually. Regards, Ganeshk  ( talk ) 18:16, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * We can try and use Google earth as far as possible. If that does not work, we use the taluka headquarters with a lower precision value. This would at least allow the place to be plotted within a 10-15 km radius. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  06:51, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I remember from previous examination that fallingrain was considered an unreliable source of geo-coordinates. Not sure what Google's source is.  Any ideas?  Fritzpoll (talk) 08:25, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No actually coordinates is just about all falling rain is consistently reliable on. You are confusing it with altitude and population figures Fritz  The Bald One       White cat 15:32, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Google's source for? It uses the WGS84 geodetic reference system if you are asking about that. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  08:35, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * lol, I meant its source for where places are. Fritzpoll (talk) 08:42, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Here's an idea, why not mine the coordinates from openstreetmap data (see map. Currently,a major chunk of indian data has been donated to OSM by Automotive Navigation Data. Most big villages and towns falling on national and state highways are marked. This data also includes the postal code. Maybe User:Ganeshk can throw more light on the feasability since im not a coder --Plane Mad 14:50, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * OSM is not accurate IMO. I'm a subscriber to a Linux mailing list that ranted that the information there. Personally, I have found many inaccuracies in the streets where I live. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  14:59, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * True, the AND donated data is pretty approximate, but the postal code info is still usable --Plane Mad 15:26, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Progress
Blofeld, Fritz, we are not being over enthusiastic or rushing here.We are undertaking a very cautious and diligent effort here. Please dont forget that the community have already approved for such a task. And I have come here to gather feedback and suggestions of how we can improve the task. I will work on the villages of Sikkim. While the no of villages in Sikkim is around 450, our first priority is the settlements over 5000 people ( may less than 100 ?) Let us see how it goes. I am now working on compiling the data and possibly include the geo-coordinates too. -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 05:33, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I notice the villages have a village code. We need to include this information for verifiability in the reference cite like this: =Nichalp   «Talk»=  07:06, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * An idea: Some of the state maps are SVG-based at a higher scale (eg Orissa). We can do something about getting a district-level map using software. Take the Orissa district map File:Orissa locator map.svg. As the map is XML, each district has an id and a corresponding value. We can extract the pixel information and write a program to strip away the unwanted portions so that we get only the shape of the district intact. The images can be batch uploaded using an upload script. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  07:06, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Perfect! Is it possible to add this village code number to Indian Jursidication template also ? -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 07:16, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The community have not approved this kind of task - this is, I'm afraid, a common misconception of the FritzpollBot consensus, which was that stubs would only be created on locations of definite notability (based on Sam's comment in the consensus that my proposal rendered the notability concerns moot - that was my proposal). Instead, GEOBOT was working to create lists with redirects, but simply had no sources.  I will happily create lists for this project, and set up all the redirects, which will avoid the need for further community drama.  But for stubs, you will need to change the existing consensus.  I'm not crusading against this by any means, and I love the iea of world coverage in some form, but I am concerned of the ramifications of getting you caught up in what was, for me, a daunting and dispiriting process. Fritzpoll (talk) 08:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * e/c @Tinu It is, but unnecessary to add in the INJ template. These codes are for internal census purposes. I don't think they are official codes of any sort.  =Nichalp   «Talk»=  08:26, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok Nich...
 * Fritz, How do you judge a settlement in India as notable ? Especially when you cannot have the same standards and expectations for places in third world countries as in first world ....You can find the primary census data here and here. You may need to create an account to access the data in the site.I have no problem whether it is you, me or anyone else creating them. I share the dream of Blofled or yours, All I want is places in every part of the world should be on WP.As far I understand, the notability of an inhabited settlements is tied to verifibility and the status quo of the community is that census data is sufficient. -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 09:13, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I think each country wikiproject should individually legislate the lowest common denominator for the notability of settlement inclusion is on WP. If the Indian census commission lists them, I think it would be fair to include them as a part of WP:IN =Nichalp   «Talk»=  12:11, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I've asked you for evidence of this status quo on your talkpage, but your replies are not very convincing in this regard. All I can say is that when I have gone and asked people in open forums on Wikipedia about this, the consensus appears to have always gone against immediate notability.  This is emphasised heavily when it comes to bot-created articles, rightly or wrongly.  Whatever you do here cannot override that.  The only way around it is to propose this at WP:Village Pump (proposals) and get a consensus there to allow you to proceed Fritzpoll (talk) 13:06, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it is really a question of notability in all fairness with these places intended to be started. It is more an argument of content and article stub resourcefulness and originality in reality. From what I;ve seen a high proportion of these villages have a population of anywhere in between 5,000 and 40,000 people, town population size in Europe which would pass the notability test easily for settlements. The main concern is not whether they are notable to me, the main concern is the result of creating 200,000 sub stubs without full coordinates and even basic demographic details or just article empty of any real content. It says ... is a village in ... district. As of ... population of ..... 200,000 articles will be created like this and the concern is that they don't contain any information to explain why the place is notable, other than existing and population figure. I know I create and have created a lot of stubs with little initial information but population and location and will continue to do, but please note I only do so when I know the article can be expanded very soon and the number of articles we are dealing with is just within management, French communes was pushing it to the max, and that only had 35,000 articles and we are still working hard to build them from sub stubs. Please see Category:Cities, towns and villages in Azerbaijan for example. Is this what we really want with 40 times as many? This is the problem with creating a high number of articles. I fully agree with building wikipedia brick by brick but 200,000 articles is a hell of a lot of articles to deal with, seriously. I'm not disputing that some will be expanded and I would love to see 200,000 fuller articles for sure but I'm thinking within restriction of human editing afterwards on wikipedia and I don't know how helpful one line 200,000 articles with just a population figure may be, certainly withint the next 5 years. Sure as I said people may come across the article and kindly expand it but I guarantee this will be a very small proportion compared to what exists. Therefore my concern is about initial content that needs to have some information to begin with as a solid foundation. Also please note that Sam's decision of consensus was indeed to Fritz's proposal to create meatier stub articles, verigng on start class if possible compiling resources to make the best start possible. Otherwise the decision was to create lists until they can be expanded. Am I right Mr. Poll? The Bald One      White cat 11:42, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I concur with this assessment of the problem - lists allow coverage without all the drama-inducement caused by stub creation. if people think I'm being overly dogmatic about the notability, then, as Blofeld is also aware, I'm merely preparing Tinu for the discussion that awaits him if he tries to proceed without acquiring a wider consensus first.  I think full geographic coverage is essential in an encyclopedia of all human knowledge, but as an RfC recently indicated, people really believe in the concept of WP:N and that the general notability guideline is an important one.  We can't just ignore that because of what we want to do Fritzpoll (talk) 13:06, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Fritzpoll, I think this is more serious with far-reaching consequences. To resolve the notability of villages, a link to the discussion should be placed in the watchlist header area so that everyone sees it. It can't be just left to the VP to trash this out. Before this is done, a strong pitch free from logically fallacies should be placed to justify the inclusion of villages. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  13:14, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with the sentiment that this is serious, and hope I have not given the impression otherwise. Watchlist headers are not generally used at present for items that haven't gained a consensus for doing so after a VP discussion, which is why I proposed going there first.  I do not know who could present such a pitch - but I would say that definitions should avoid vague criteria like population for inclusion, since they are actually hard to justify, being essentially arbitrary.  I'll give it some thought, but I hope to see others make some arguments here first before taking it to the community at large.  This was all I wanted - this process to slow down.  Fritzpoll (talk) 13:28, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, but not everyone reads the VP. Places are one of the things that everyone has some opinion of. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  15:01, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I know, but if you hang around the watchlist editing page, you'll see that the folks around there have turned against this kind of exercise, right up to and including RfCs, being included in watchlists and refuse to add them. Maybe WP:CENT? Fritzpoll (talk) 15:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

50 Cent anybody? The Bald One      White cat 21:20, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I didn't get the connection. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  12:39, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I think all villages are inherently notable. We may think they are not notable, but villages have been around for hundreds of years and would have been notable in the past when cities were non existent. =Nichalp  «Talk»=  12:39, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The consensus at the village pump indicates that this is not the overall view of the community Fritzpoll (talk) 14:28, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * If we can have all Indian villages or those with population greater than 5000 on Wikipedia that would be simply too great. Do we have prepared data for >5000 people places or all villages. My few suggestions on this:
 * We should ideally have villages categorized under Tehsil level categories else District level category also be great
 * Better to append district name with that of village name else there will be too many name clashes.
 * Pl note complete district level categories exist for several states (UP, Uttarakhand, HP, Haryana, Punjab, all NER states), see if they can be used in case new category creation through a bot is a bit tricky. If I can be of any help, just let me know. Vjdchauhan (talk) 17:23, 6 January 2009 (UTC).


 * I am getting this error msg at http://censusindia.gov.in/ site at both my office and home connections

"You are not authorized to view this page The Web server you are attempting to reach has a list of IP addresses that are not allowed to access the Web site, and the IP address of your browsing computer is on this list.

Please try the following: Contact the Web site administrator if you believe you should be able to view this directory or page. HTTP Error 403.6 - Forbidden: IP address of the client has been rejected. Internet Information Services (IIS) "

Is anybody facing the same? May be I am trying to retrive too much data -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 03:28, 7 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I am getting the same right off the bat. No page was retrieved. Is it a restricted site? Were you accessing it in past without problems? This is the first time I have tried to access this site. VasuVR  ( talk,  contribs ) 05:26, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I was able to access and retrive data from the site for data for the indian settlements till yesterday. In between it was throwing some .Net exception errors or server issues messages. I thought I was blocked for retriving too much data from the site :) -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 06:11, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

India Economy articles
Can some more editors keep an eye on the following articles: Recently there was a edit war on these (and many other) India related articles between and. The latter is definitely a sock account ( ?) and was rightly blocked, but I think Lalit's edits also have a significant POV problem. So it would help if more established and experienced editors looked over the current contents and editing history of these and other articles. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 16:55, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Economy of India (nominally an FA, but far from it IMO)
 * Poverty in India
 * Standard of living in India


 * Yes, I agree. BTW, I am not too sure about the Hkelkar connection. was banned for disruptive editing. Also the  tag was put as he/she is supected of using an ip to avoid the block (evidence:Special:Contributions/128.189.208.27. -- KnowledgeHegemony  talk 18:14, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

sub-category in a template not reflecting in articles.
I am not so comfortable working with categories and need help. I recently created Template:Dalit-stub and today created category category:Dalit community stubs. On the template page the category is seen correctly. But somehow none of the pages where I added this template show the category. Example: Daya Pawar does not show category Dalit community stub. Any idea why? --<font color="red" face="cursive">GP <font color="black" face="cursive">Pande 19:10, 5 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It is a matter of purging the cache. I guess you had it as Dalit community first, then viewed the page. Later you had changed the category in the template to Dalit community stubs. This was not taken in cache. When I purged the page, I was able to see the new category in the page. It still did not show up in the category. Made a minor edit to Daya Pawar page (moved stub to bottom of categories) and now the page shows up in the category as well. This is likely to happen in initial stages due to caching and related issues. Now onwards you should be all set to move forward. VasuVR  ( talk,  contribs ) 04:21, 6 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Right, I noticed category:Dalit community stubs shows only one article - Daya Pawar which you had edited. No other article showed up on the category page. The individual articles showed the category at the bottom. So I edited Republican Party of India (Athvale) and now see it also appears on the category page. I believe the next time these pages get edited they would get added to the category page automatically. Thanks! --<font color="red" face="cursive">GP <font color="black" face="cursive">Pande 07:30, 6 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I think they are already added. Due to Browser cache issue, it is not showing up. If you make a minor edit in one page, you can see. Else open another browser (download Mozilla for example) and check in that, it will show up.--GDibyendu (talk) 10:58, 6 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Logically it cannot be a browser cache issue. If one edit makes only that particular page to show up, then that is the data sent from the server - otherwise, the server should have sent everything at that time, right? How can it know that this particular user has edited only one page and can send that as part of category, instead of everything else that is already in the category? It is matter of appropriate refresh at the server end. I think experts, including people like Ganeshk / Tinu can give us more insight into what happens behind the scenes - i.e., whether the categories are updated only during an edit, or at time of page view (when transclusion is effected to send page to user). I suspect it is the former. VasuVR  ( talk,  contribs ) 11:42, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes I suspect it is a server cache issue. Try purging the page, the next time you see this problem. Abecedare (talk) 11:56, 6 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The reason I said that Category is updated only at time of page edit (and hence not likely to be updated - "list of pages in a category" perspective) is that I had earlier seen some comment from Ganeshk related to this. He said that we have to give time for software to refresh the category. The possibility is that when a template is updated appropriate software will then refresh all the pages that uses the template, but possibly in the background at a slow pace. At the same time, when a page is edited, the update is completed then and there for that specific page. Please see Ganeshk's earlier comment found in the archives of this noticeboard. So possibly in a day or two all pages should be populated properly when a category in a template is modified, which has to show up in the pages where it is transcluded. Hope this clarifies. VasuVR  ( talk,  contribs ) 12:56, 6 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Yup, lets wait and watch. --<font color="red" face="cursive">GP <font color="black" face="cursive">Pande 14:01, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. Sorry about my comments. I missed the main point that it is the category page which is not getting updated. As usual that page also says that it may take some time to be updated. Thanks for the clarifications.--GDibyendu (talk) 14:18, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Land reforms in India
While creating the Operation Barga page, I just realized that wikipedia didn't have a page for this topic, which I found unbelievable... for an agrarian society, and with such an extensive history of land reforms, such as the land ceiling act, land acquisition act, Op Barga, land tribunals in karnataka, etc, we really need such a page exclusively, rather than a single para in the Land reform page. I think we'll have to work on this.... look forward to any help, and suggested pages to be created in this group. I think we can also create a Category:Land reforms in India (should the R be capitalized??). Cheers. <font face="Georgia" size="3">Sniperz 11 @CS 10:01, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm just wondering if the term "reforms" as a title is a POV. It should be in small case, to answer your second part. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  14:45, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Pro-pakistani Vandalism on Jammu and Kashmir articles
Today, I have come across vandalism at Omar Abdullah page from Last edit to Last edit after Vandalism by Changing all Jammu and Kashmir wiki links to Indian administered Kashmir etc, which is blatant vandalism

Also in articles like Kashmir conflict, Timeline of the Kashmir conflict, Insurgency in Jammu and Kashmir etc repeated edits have made them Pro Pakistani rather than neutral. There should be a national watchdog on Kashmir articles especially sensitive ones. --Ekabhishek (talk) 05:18, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I am ready to volunter for Vigilance-- <FONT FACE="Old English Text MT" COLOR="#FF6600">Suyog</FONT> <FONT FACE="Old English Text MT" COLOR="#FF6600">talk to me!</FONT>  05:50, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Indian Wikipedian of the year award
In the interest of the project we should think of instituting "the Indian wikipedian of the year" award.Shyamsunder (talk) 19:32, 26 December 2008 (UTC)


 * great idea. number of edits, ratio of main page to talk page and other edits, new articles, new images and contribution to DYKs, ITNs, GAs and FAs among others can be used as a criteria. We could also go back and review previous years and award older wikipedians. But, importantly, we should consider only the self-nominated candidates for not everyone may like the idea of their edits being scrutinised for whatecer purposes. -- Docku:  What's up?  00:04, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I mostly agreed with criteria. However I feel self nomination may not work. I think many of our fellow Indian wikipedians are too modest to nominate themselves. Many of us spend a lot of time and efforts and make great contibution to India project. The award will be a small appreciation to them from us all. The end of one year and start of another year may be the right time to do so. Shyamsunder (talk) 01:57, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Edits are open to everyone to look at and review, right? Hence the scrutiny aspect may not hold water, would it? Self-nomination or nomination by other editors - should not matter, in my opinion. The criteria should be simple too (and hence can reduce scrutiny and rigour). Hope to see some more comments by the active members. Hope to also see the plans fructify soon. It is not only a reward for the contribution but motivation too. VasuVR  ( talk,  contribs ) 15:47, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The awards could be given on the basis of recent work. For example, the award for the year 2008 could be given to the person who has  given his best in 2008. The awards could be year-specific instead of being too general.- Ravichandar <sub style="color:aqua; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My coffee shop  15:51, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I am firmly against this idea. Wikipedia is a collaboration NOT a competition. Comparisons of edits will only lead to discontented editors. Also who scrutinizes? Who gives the award? How do we develop a consensus on one editor. I think we can always award the India barnstar to editors for their work, without any comparisons or competitions. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 06:31, 31 December 2008 (UTC)


 * WP:MILHIST offers a good idea on awards... you may want to check it out and see how it can help us. <font face="Georgia" size="3">Sniperz 11 @CS 07:40, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Difficult to have such an award. We can institute an award on objective parameters such as most DYKs, FAs, FLs, FTs and so on, and a point system for each. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  07:04, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Something like this, WikiProject Military history/Contest? Regards, Ganeshk  ( talk ) 07:17, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Good suggestion from Nichalp. I was also going to suggest something similar. Something similar to WikiCup 2009. India is being represented by (My best luck to you Tinu!). I think we should also have "WikiCup India". Along with WP:PINQ this might encourage more editors from India. Also, it is just the start of 2009, right time to initiate such a contest. --<font color="red" face="cursive">GP <font color="black" face="cursive">Pande 09:12, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, we can do something on those lines. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  15:39, 4 January 2009 (UTC)


 * A related bot request that I made, Bot_requests. Regards, Ganeshk  ( talk ) 03:21, 5 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Instead of a contest, I feel any editor who has x GAs, y DYKs, OR/AND z FAs, should be given the award, without any comparisons with other editors. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 04:37, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Having a contest provides that extra motivation. We can institute some barnstars for this. 06:19, 5 January 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by nichalp (talk • contribs)


 * Hey Ganesh, it would be great if a bot can do all this. For MILHIST competition and WikiCup, participation and submission of entries is totally voluntary and points are awarded on each submission (only after it is verified and found correct). Also, what if a Wikipedian (for any reason) does not disclose his nationality or is not from India? Will he/she be not able to participate even though contributing heavily to India-related articles? Also, contributions by Indians to non-India related articles should not be considered. It seems I might be jumping here to set the rules of the game, but thought of asking it before-hand. --<font color="red" face="cursive">GP <font color="black" face="cursive">Pande 07:58, 5 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Is it possible to get 'New page' user contribution data i.e. how to get list of top new page contributors on Wikipedia. Vjdchauhan (talk) 12:22, 5 January 2009 (UTC).


 * A link for that is now available in the contributions page of an user (last link at the bottom of the first page).--GDibyendu (talk) 17:19, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It works, Thanks. Vjdchauhan (talk) 05:35, 8 January 2009 (UTC).


 * Gppande, If the bot idea is implemented, the participants will be picked from the Members page. Any one registered with this project can participate. The bot will check against India-related contributions only (by looking at the project banner on the talk page). Regards, Ganeshk  ( talk ) 12:40, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Valued picture candidates/Taj Mahal in 1921
I've nominated a 1921 photograph of the Taj Mahal for a VPC. Your opinions on the same would be appreciated. Thanks- Ravichandar <sub style="color:aqua; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My coffee shop 03:30, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Siddharthnagar district capital?
Does anyone know the answer to my (old) question about the capital of the Siddharthnagar district at the Talk:Siddharthnagar district page? Thanks.--Pjred (talk) 17:29, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * We'd have to go by official sources: http://india.gov.in/knowindia/districts/andhra1.php?stateid=up =Nichalp   «Talk»=  07:10, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I understand the importance of official sources. However, what makes me confused is that there exist no place (city, town or village) in Siddharthnagar district with the name of Navgarh (or more commonly spelled Naugarh). At least not listed in official results from the 2001 Census (I downloaded the full list from the Delimitation Commission of India webpage a long time ago; it seems however that it's not available anymore). The only administrative unit with this name is a subdistrict (Tehsil). Further, the only urban place in the subdistrict of Naugarh is Tetri Bazar, all other places are classified as rural villages. That's why I wonder if the capital of this district is Tetri Bazar in reality.--Pjred (talk) 19:23, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Interesting anomaly. Credible sources that are not verifiable! I researched on it a bit more: It seems like the subdistrict and town are of the same name. That's not an anomaly in India. See the subdistrict map for its location. "Naugad" is mentioned in Hindi. It's the light green area on the top right. I also googled it up. See the link on Google maps. If you switch to the satellite view, you can see a fair degree of urbanisation. Regards, =Nichalp   «Talk»=  20:38, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The subdistrict map you listed shows 'blocks', which isn't the same as city/town/village. I'm not sure, but blocks are probably just another name for tehsil. There's still the circumstance that there is no town in the Siddharthnagar district with the name Naugarh listed at the 2001 Census. Not even a village. And, if you open the google map you linked to, and search for Tetri Bazar instead, it will highlight the same urban area as where Naugarh is written. This can mean two things as I see it. First, this can mean that the name Naugarh is just placed where the district centre is located. This is common in google maps for a.o. Chinese cities, where the name of the county is placed at the county centre, not necessary (quite seldom actually) bearing the same name. The other explanation can be that Tetri Bazar has changed its name after the 2001 Census, to Naugarh. I haven't found anything to support this though. I still believe that Tetri Bazar probably is the real administrative centre for the district, but until I can find a reliable source to support this, I won't make any changes in the article.--Pjred (talk) 22:15, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * As ridiculous as it may seem, Wikipedia's policies focus on verifiability not the truth! :( Navgarh is a railway station, and also a electoral constituency. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  15:54, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Census data shows only 4 city/towns for this district (formed in 1988) and that does not include Naugarh. Though in the district website I could not find a clear info on where the district HQ is, it seems that Naugarh is the HQ: from this page, because Sadar subdivision HQ is in Naugarh only.--GDibyendu (talk) 14:34, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Merger of Tapanguchi
Can somebody take a call on this merger proposal? prashanthns (talk) 09:00, 7 January 2009 (UTC)


 * A google search yields a number of Youtube, forum and blog links as search results and zero Google Books hits. Almost no scholarly research material seems to exist on the topic. I doubt whether such an article should continue to remain in existence- Ravichandar <sub style="color:aqua; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My coffee shop 10:23, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Just examined the references provided for Dappan koothu. While dappankoothu appears to be verifiable, none of the sources menation the word "tapanguchi". We cannot conclude a subject to be notable on basis of youtube video links or forum references. I personally feel that the article may very well be deleted unless references could be found.- Ravichandar <sub style="color:aqua; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My coffee shop 10:31, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

WP:INDIA crosses 50,000 articles
Have you noticed ? WP:INDIA crossed 50,000 articles under its scope. Probably the third largest WikiProject after WP:WPBIO and WP:MILHIST. Congratulations to all on this milestone. Keep up the good work ... What is next : 1 lakh by 2010 ? -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 17:28, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow! --<font color="red" face="cursive">GP <font color="black" face="cursive">Pande  17:42, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Lets get those 600k villages out. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  18:19, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. Also it would be great if we somehow come to know of update on this great task of creating villages with >5000 population, may be on Tinucherian's page (I will be watching it almost on daily basis). Today I saw Category:Villages in Kerala page and saw that this category is overwhelmed by pages though same pages also exist in their corresponding district page, can this problem be solved as a category at a time can display around 200 pages only at a time. Vjdchauhan (talk) 17:38, 8 January 2009 (UTC).

Template:Governors of Bombay
If I create Template:Governors of Bombay which is redundant with Category:Governors of Bombay and List of Governors of Bombay, will it survive. Anyone can help me. Thanks, Kensplanet <b style="color:black;">T</b><b style="color:green;">C</b> 15:23, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. Put the category inside the template, and physically remove it from the articles of the governors. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  15:35, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, why not? See Template:Prime Ministers of India. --<font color="red" face="cursive">GP <font color="black" face="cursive">Pande 15:46, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, it should survive. They are for different purposes. Please see WP:CLN (Category, List, Navbox templates) for comparison and why all 3 may be useful, each from different perspective and usage. VasuVR  ( talk,  contribs ) 15:48, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * If Template:Prime Ministers of India can survive, I think this can easily survive then since this has 79 Governors. Thanks, Kensplanet <b style="color:black;">T</b><b style="color:green;">C</b> 15:51, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Flag of India before 1947
I notice at places where the term British India is used on wikipedia, the red ensign is used to represent India, but I've never seen this flag being used in all the old photographs and archival footage. Instead, its always been the Union Jack. Even the symbolic lowering of the British flag on the midnight of 14-15 August was the Union Jack. Anyone has information on this? =Nichalp  «Talk»=  17:24, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, the same with me too. Until five years back, I was under the impression that the Union Jack was India's flag during the Raj. It was quite recently that I got to know that the Star of India was India's flag during the Raj. And then, there were two flags at the same time. While the Star of India represented India, the Viceroy's ensign (File:India-Viceroy-1885.svg) was used by the Viceroy, Commander-in-chief of India and, probably, by provincial governors.- Ravichandar <sub style="color:aqua; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My coffee shop 01:30, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Alexa rankings
According to Alexa, India accounts for 5.5% of all users, the fourth highest after the US, Japan, and Germany. It is also ranked 11th in India. Interesting statistics, though the moot question remains why we lack good quality contributors (such as academics and experts) actively editing. We need to boost those numbers as currently the number of steady contributors is low. :( =Nichalp   «Talk»=  05:37, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * You reduced duration of idle topic prior to archive from 10 to 5 days, stating that board is now very active. That in itself is a good sign! ;-) Yes, quality is always rare in everything - hence the existing treasures must be retained, motivated and all should have fun doing this! VasuVR  ( talk,  contribs ) 06:23, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yup, there are too many old posts and too many new ones appearing that necessitates the need to be archived quickly, else the focus on the topics would be lost. At the time of reduction, this page was 108 kb in size. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  06:49, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, it would be of great help to us if we could get enough people who are interested in contributing, leave along running-after experts or academics. A number of people are here only to contribute spam or OR. And if there are people interested in providing useful content, the "useful content" is limited in scope to their school, college, etc. We have lesser featured articles than, say, Wikiproject Australia. I guess the main reason is because of the difficultly people have in contributing quality articles in English as English is not our mother tongue. As a result, English-speaking countries like Australia, UK or USA have more FAs that we do though we have more educated people in our country than any of the aforesaid ones- Ravichandar <sub style="color:aqua; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My coffee shop  06:30, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think the numbers that Alexa has are just editors, rather simply readers (page hits) of the content. Secondly, I don't think that we lack featured articles because we have a problem with crisp English. At one point of time (2005), we had more featured articles than Australia, the number of our city articles rivalled US cities. What's happened over the years is that the criteria for featured articles has been tightened significantly. So, a lot less people are now willing to take part in the process. Not to mention several regular FA contributors have had to catch up with RL, resulting in the dip in India-related FAs. Lack of English skills should never be a detriment. We have able copyeditors who are willing to clean up prose. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  06:49, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, I do see that India related articles which were FAs two-three years back get nominated for WP:FAR. The lack of editors to address the FAR concerns causes the article to be removed from FA class. I think in 2008 - if we see the count of FAs promoted and FAs removed for India - they will almost match. How many articles nominated for FAR actually survived the review? I can think of only 2, Gangtok and Ahmedabad. We need editors who can help maintain the quality of the articles whenever it gets nominated for FAR. Currently we have 3 active FARs Featured article review/Kalimpong, Featured article review/Kingdom of Mysore and Featured article review/Indian Railways. --<font color="red" face="cursive">GP <font color="black" face="cursive">Pande 15:10, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * One reason for the difficulty in surviving FAR is the difficulty in finding reliable sources, especially online ones for India related articles. For example, Indian newspapers don't have online archives (to my knowledge anyway) whereas most major US and UK newspapers do so researching even fairly recent events like the Anti-Hindi agitations is hard. Similarly, Indian academic journals, such as they are, are not included in JSTOR or other online repositories. --Regent's Park (Boating Lake) 17:36, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Are there public libraries in India or only in libraries. I'm surprised that the vast majority of Indian articles are so reliant on websources. Obviously if the article is about a contemporary thing, then yes, but lots of articles like Iqbal and Syed Ahmed Khan are piled up with web references instead of academic books, a lot more so than Australian ones on old history, which mostly use history books.  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket ) 01:51, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Public libraries are few and accessing them difficult. In a large city such as mine, few would want to spend a minimum of two hours commuting just to access a library for a Wikipedia article. There are also National Depository Centres that are really useful for research work, but then again, you have volumes of information at hand and little personal time to go through each book. The efforts required are disproportional. Also do note that the Indian education system does focus on rote learning rather than research work. You would only find research work  supported in top institutes and largely at the post graduate level.  =Nichalp   «Talk»=  05:42, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I personally feel that web references are more reliable and suitable as you can check them outright, verify easily the text and reuse anytime again. There two problems with online sources - 1) there are very few domains which can be said as reliable. 2) private websites offering professional quality information are paid sites V/s free government sites which contain very little not-so-useful data. Example Indiastat Vs Census of India Published references are mostly accepted by admins and reviewers on good faith alone. --<font color="red" face="cursive">GP <font color="black" face="cursive">Pande  06:28, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * That depends on the context. Historical, geographical, and economic material are more reliable as published material than something that the ToI quotes. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  06:42, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * To expand on Nichalp's reply: The web is excellent for recent news and up to date statistics, but I don't think quality articles can be written on say Rabindranath Tagore or Ganesha without relying primarily on print publications. Also, heavy reliance on web sources adds to the problem of recentism, and bias towards English and/or Western mass media. Of course, Google Books/Google Scholar goes some way in remedying that, and blurring that online/offline divide. Abecedare (talk) 07:24, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * As per section 'WP:INDIA crosses 50,000 articles' above we are far short on number of pages a country of size of India should have, we need more new page editors. Surely a bot operated by user:Tinucherian to create pages out of villages having population greater that 5000 (totaling around 2.2 lakhs villages) will help greatly in increasing the Indian article numbers as well as help increase the reach of Wikipedia among Indians. Vjdchauhan (talk) 17:47, 8 January 2009 (UTC).
 * I am also interested in creating missing articles on British Governors, Commander-in-chiefs of Bombay, Madras, Bengal etc...as can be seen from Special:Contributions/Kensplanet. Can a Bot help me. Kensplanet <b style="color:black;">T</b><b style="color:green;">C</b> 03:53, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You really don't need a bot to do this. There are semi-automated scripts that you can run from your account. If you're on Windows, you can also try Auto Wiki Browser (AWB) to do this. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  05:42, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

List of Governors of Bombay
List of Governors of Bombay is a Featured list candidate at Featured list candidates/List of Governors of Bombay. Comments, Suggestions are welcomed. Kensplanet <b style="color:black;">T</b><b style="color:green;">C</b> 09:34, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Special:Contributions/91.130.91.84
Can an experienced editor on Indian topics spot-check what appears to be idiosyncratic contributions and deletions by this anonymous and persistent editor? THF (talk) 13:13, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * IMO, this anon is not the usual vandal. she/he discusses on the talk, does some constructive edits. We crossed paths at Adi Shankara.-- Redtigerxyz Talk 13:45, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Adi Shankara
Meditation needed over removal of Devanagari script issue. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 14:39, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

DAB links in Infobox Indian Jurisdiction
Hi,

I'm trying to keep an eye on links to the DAB page Punjab. I've found a couple that seem to be generated automatically by the Infobox Indian Jurisdiction. I'm not sure how to handle them as the instructions for using the template say not to link the states (presumably this includes not piping the links as well). Help? Ka Faraq Gatri (talk) 21:55, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * What are the couple of items?--GDibyendu (talk) 06:48, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * What links here for Punjab gives a full list - I guess it is not a couple. Examples are Mohali, Firozpur, Kapurthala! The template itself needs some work to handle Disambiguation of Punjab around the Autolink of state name. That is the best way to do this, instead of trying any other solution.
 * In the meantime I noticed that the category Cities and towns of Punjab (India) is added manually in each article. I noticed it as I found that category was linked correctly and was wondering how that part was handled - guess Category is not added in the Infobox Indian Jurisdiction! Recently User:Saravask has edited this template and hopefully he can help best with this issue of disambiguation to Punjab (India), due to familiarity (with such complex templates, we need experts here). VasuVR  ( talk,  contribs ) 07:29, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * ✅ Done. The template has been fixed. Over time the links and pages should be refreshed. If any mistake is found, please scream - high use template. VasuVR  ( talk,  contribs ) 07:50, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmmm. The fix to dab on state_name parameter did not seem to help. The pages still have some link to the dab page Punjab - what links here on the dab page still has all Indian pages in list. Can someone take a look again... VasuVR  ( talk,  contribs ) 04:37, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Taskgroup issues
I just find it difficult while deciding which taskgroup an article should belong to while history-related articles are involved. For example, the Madras Presidency included parts of Orissa till 1935. Madras state also included parts of Andhra Pradesh till 1953 and parts of Karnataka, Kerala and Lakshadweep till 1956. So, what am I to do with regard to articles on Chief Ministers of Madras Presidency or Madras state? Am I to include these CMs in all the workgroups? And if this is the case, then what of the Ministers in the cabinet? And what are we to do about British colonial governors? Are we to add them to WP India and assign them to specific taskgroups?- Ravichandar <sub style="color:aqua; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My coffee shop 18:47, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You're looking at it from the wrong angle. Look at it this way: How much can Orissa contribute to the article Madras Presidency? Quite a lot: you have an overlapping history, geography and economy. So definitely WP Orissa can add meaningful information to Madras State. Now look at the CMs. How significant is it to Orissa? Not at all. They were not CMs of Orissa, and therefore there is little that WP Orissa can do for supporting CM articles unless the CM hailed from Orissa. Indian politics project can do a better support job. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  18:57, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * But then, these CMs introduced reforms of a general nature which affected the whole Presidency apart from a few Andhra-specific or Tamil Nadu-specific reforms as the established of a Andhra University or modifying the administrative structure of Madras University.- Ravichandar <sub style="color:aqua; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My coffee shop  02:20, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I wish to note a few statistics though it is unrelated to our discussion. It is interesting to note that 6 of the 11 CMs of Tamil-majority Madras Presidency prior to the formation of Andhra state were from regions making up present-day Andhra Pradesh. The cabinet of the Raja of Panagal the second CM exemplifies the diversity of the Presidency. While the Raja was from Kalahasti which is now in Andhra Pradesh, his two cabinet ministers A. P. Patro and T. N. Sivagnanam Pillai hailed from Oriya-speaking district of Ganjam and the Tamil-speaking district of Tirunelveli respectively. A. Ranganatha Mudaliar who served as a minister in P. Subbarayan's cabinet hailed from Bellary district which is now in Karnataka. Those might've been the days when people might feel compelled to use English even in provincial legislatures for members to understand each other. It appears strange to us today. And, by the way, I feel that you are right here. And then, what about the provincial governors. I find that most of them aren't even a part of WP India. Should we add them?- Ravichandar <sub style="color:aqua; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My coffee shop 02:20, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


 * As Nichalp pointed out, we just take on a case-by-case basis, to assign appropriate workgroups. This depends on whether they are of interest to the workgroup and will be able to contribute. Of course, even after assignment anyone can add or remove workgroups as per their views - hence we don't need to worry about it much.
 * As regards to the WP India not being assigned - we should immediately add the tags in the talk page, whenever we come across some of these that are not tagged. There are likely hundreds of such articles, which quite a few people are trying to tag, including, amongst others TinucherianBot. VasuVR  ( talk,  contribs ) 04:56, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

have been working on WP:India tagging for quite some time now....along with and  :D -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  -


 * Cool. By the way, I think lot of Hinduism related articles are not tagged with WP:India! It is possible that some of the articles may be about specific items outside India (possibly difficult for WP India contributions). Example Category:Hinduism templates - many are not tagged and some of it were manually tagged. This may or may not be a work for a bot. I am sure the WP India article numbers will be much higher if we tag more of such existing items. VasuVR  ( talk,  contribs ) 11:35, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Hinduism articles are a tricky thing, there are articles related to Hindu temples in Cambodia, USA, Nepal, Singapore, Malaysia etc. which should not be tagged. The set of articles related to Jainism and Sikhism can be related to India too. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 13:07, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Hinduism related articles should not be blanket tagged with WP India. Else the purpose of WP Hinduism is defeated. Evaluate on a case-by-case basis. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  14:48, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree... But if there is some explicit India related categories like Category:Hindu temples in India, please let me know, will work on them -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 04:34, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Temples are location of buildings in India. By default, they are supported by WP India. So are Indian people involved in Hinduism. What is not supported would be tenets of Hinduism, mythological persons mentioned in Hinduism and so on, as religion is not country-specific. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  06:51, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

S. Anantharamakrishnan
I just prepared an article on business magnate Anantharamakrishnan and submitted it for a DYK. However, I would like to know his full name. I tried searching the web, but couldn't find it. I guess it would be Sivasailam as Sivasailam appears to be a family deity of his and his son is also named A. Sivasailam. However, I'm not sure about it. Could someone here help me? It would also be great if someone could expand the article and more importantly, include details about his tenure as Chairman which lasted from 1953 to 1964. I could get bits and pieces of info but not a complete biography and it is difficult referring different articles and books just to add one or two sentences.- Ravichandar <sub style="color:aqua; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My coffee shop 11:11, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Folks at WP:PINQ might be able to help out. It's their bread and butter. :) =Nichalp   «Talk»=  12:33, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Question ??
I have received the consent of Shiv Aroor to use his photos on wikipedia and he has agreed on the terms that either his name or the blog URL have to be credited. the consent email is in my Inbox. How should I post it of wiki ?????? --Johnxxx9 (talk) 16:42, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It's very simple. The consent E-mail may not be useful.


 * Upload the Image first on Commons. Include the OTRSpending template in the description.
 * Contact Mr. Shiv Aroor and tell him to mail you this Requesting copyright permission. (see below letter). Include the below letter in your mail. Do not forget to put the Link of the Image and copyright license (in this case CC 3.0) yourself. The Date should be filled by Mr. Aroor. So specifically tell him in the Mail. Also tell him to read the license very very carefully because commercial use is granted.
 * After you receive the Mail, forward the Mail to permissions-commons@wikimedia.org. Please mention the URL of the Image on Commons while forwarding.
 * The OTRS volunteer should check it and verify it.
 * If it's taking a lot of time for verifying, contact http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/OTRS/personnel or http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Commons_OTRS_volunteers directly. Kensplanet <b style="color:black;">T</b><b style="color:green;">C</b> 17:29, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I, Mr. Shiv Aroor, hereby assert that I am the creator and/or sole owner of the exclusive copyright of the following Images

[ Put the exact URLs with http of the Images you have uploaded on Commons ].

I agree to publish the above images under the Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported license [ http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ ], [ http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:Cc-by-3.0 ].

I acknowledge that I grant anyone the right to use the work in a commercial product and to modify it according to their needs, provided that they abide by the terms of the license and any other applicable laws.

I am aware that I always retain copyright of my work, and retain the right to be attributed in accordance with the license chosen. Modifications others make to the work will not be attributed to me.

I acknowledge that I cannot withdraw this agreement, and that the content may or may not be kept permanently on a Wikimedia project.

Mr. Shiv Aroor (Insert Blog Address)

DATE: (This has to be filld by Mr. Aroor when he sends you the confirmation)

Request for neutral opinion
Hi, I and my fellow editors are facing a deadlock on a issue of removing/toning down few lines on 'Allegations of Human Rights violation against the Indian Army' under 'criticism of the operation' section in Operation Blue Star article, concerns include WP:NPOV, WP:SOAP & WP:V, the summary of dispute can be found at. I would request all interested editors to kindly go through the article and please let us know your views/opinion at the talk page of the article so that npov, balance and undue weight concerns may be looked into and a consensual solution may be found. Thanks LegalEagle (talk) 06:00, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Land reforms in India
While creating the Operation Barga page, I just realized that wikipedia didn't have a page for this topic, which I found unbelievable... for an agrarian society, and with such an extensive history of land reforms, such as the land ceiling act, land acquisition act, Op Barga, land tribunals in karnataka, etc, we really need such a page exclusively, rather than a single para in the Land reform page. I think we'll have to work on this.... look forward to any help, and suggested pages to be created in this group. I think we can also create a Category:Land reforms in India (should the R be capitalized??). Cheers. <font face="Georgia" size="3">Sniperz 11 @CS 10:01, 6 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm just wondering if the term "reforms" as a title is a POV. It should be in small case, to answer your second part. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  14:45, 6 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I've resurrected this discussion, since I had not seen NichalP's reply... if it is out of place, request admins to delete. <font face="Georgia" size="3">Sniperz 11 @CS 11:36, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Nichal, I don't think "reforms" is POV... whether or not the reform works being besides the point anyway. Lawyers and judicial language also refers to these as land reforms anyway, as does the Land reform page on wikipedia, without having been referred for POV. The fact is that legislations such as the land ceiling act and other similar acts come under the general category of Land reforms, as repeatedly referred to as such by even the Courts in India. The phrase "land reforms" itself has been so often used that it has been sapped of any POV. I guess we can use it as such without any issues. Also, thanks for clarifying about the spelling.


 * Any ideas or help from other wikipedians??? I'm looking up which topics need to be added to such a category. Thanks. <font face="Georgia" size="3">Sniperz 11 @CS 11:36, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Would suggest that you create that cat, when around 7-8 articles are found or added. BTW, I could not find a similar cat for other countries. About other possible members of the proposed cat, you may consider Zamindars, Permanent Settlement and Farmers' movements in India. Farmers' suicides in India is a related topic, though not a direct subtopic, as most of them were landless laborers in agricultural industry. About whether 'r' of reform should be capital or not: I guess it should not be capital in article title also.--GDibyendu (talk) 16:18, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah... good idea.. WILCO Dibyenduji. However, I think we may need to somehow make sure that we don't expand the envelope of land reforms too much... best to limit it to actual government or pseudo-govt initiatives, such as the various legislations, movements such as Vinobha Bhave's Bhumidaan, and Operation Barga like. Opinions?? <font face="Georgia" size="3">Sniperz 11 @CS 06:37, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Need PD or free image of Justice M. Fathima Beevi
I recently expanded the article of Justice M. Fathima Beevi and nominated for DYK. I am looking for adding any PD or free image for the subject. Any help ? -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 06:06, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Kutchi ?
FYI: Kutchi people and Kutchi language both need work. "Poor excuse" and "poor" grammar are POV unless attributed, as is "there are too many casts in kutchi community..." Hope someone can do some fixes, thanks. - Hordaland (talk) 14:34, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Need some information on Chand Dynasty
Hi I am very interested in the Chand Dynasty. I have read that they had an origin in Rajasthan as the 1st King was maybe a king in Rajasthan and come to Uttarkhand is that absolutely incorrect? What exactly happened how did this dynasty come to an end was it the British? Are there any known remnants ? Did the British make the Chand Kings land owners like they did with the other kingdoms?

Any information will be much appreciated. Thank You slashjamez@yahoo.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slashjames (talk • contribs) 17:03, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi, you can read the article about the Chand Dynasty by clicking this link. I hope this helps. With regards, AnupamTalk 21:24, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

already did that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slashjames (talk • contribs) 01:32, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * As the article suggests, the Chand Kings were originally from Kannuaj near Allahabad and declined in the middle of 18th century, and remained as small landlords under the British, and subsequently fading away. Refer to suggested reading section, for further research. --Ekabhishek (talk) 06:08, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank You —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slashjames (talk • contribs) 00:54, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Indian independence movement under GA review
Hello there, the article Indian independence movement which falls under the auspices of this Wikiproject, has come under review as part of GA Sweeps and a number of problems have been identified and listed on the talk page. If these problems have not begun to be addressed by seven days from this notice, the article will be delisted from GA and will have to go through the WP:GAN process all over again to regain its status once improvements have been made. If you have any questions, please drop me a line.--Jackyd101 (talk) 11:09, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Valued picture candiate nomination
-- Redtigerxyz Talk 07:13, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

-- Redtigerxyz Talk 11:22, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Tibet in Hari Singh's title.
The Instrument of Accession (Jammu and Kashmir) is signed by Hari Singh as "Shriman Inder Mahander Rajrajeswar Maharajadhiraj Shri Hari Singhji, Jammu and Kashmir Naresh Tatha Tibbetadi Deshadhipathi," (King of Jammu and Kashmir and Master of Tibet.) Although I know that General Zorawar Singh invaded Tibet in the mid-Nineteenth century, I never knew the rulers of Kashmir had a mention of Tibet in their official title. Is there some information about the origins of such a title, and whether the Kashmir state had any claims over Tibet? deeptrivia (talk) 02:45, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, since ancient times, Ladakh was referred to as Little Tibet. According to the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica, Muslims chroniclers who lived before the introduction of Islam in Ladakh mistakenly regarded Ladakh as the actual Tibet and called Baltistan as Little Tibet. This might probably be the reason. Yeah, the fact that Hari Singh used such titles in the Instrument of Accession appears to be new to me.- Ravichandar <sub style="color:aqua; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My coffee shop 03:11, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm actually here to reply to Ravichandar84's post (on my page) about British Indian Empire WikiProject, but I can't help noticing your posts. Well, it turns out that I uploaded that instrument of accession whose first page has that title (which I hadn't noticed, but which is a little odd). According to Royal Ark, the full title of the J&K rulers since Gulab Singh (1847) has been: H.H. Shriman Rajrajeshwar Maharajadhiraj Shri <First Name> <Last Name>, Indar Mahindar Bahadur, Sipar-i-Sultanat, Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir.  No mention of Tibet (little or large).   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  03:30, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * PS I just realized that Kashmir rulers did have a fort in a town whose name I am forgetting now which was on the bend of the river Karakash just above Aksai Chin and just below the Kun Lun mountains. Please see Hindutash.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  03:39, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * PPS Just remembered the name of the town. It is Shahidulla. Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  03:39, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh, that's pretty new to me. In fact, the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica article on "Ladakh and Baltistan" actually says:




 * I thought Hari Singh's references to Tibet in his list of titles had something to do with this. Anyway, this new piece of information regarding a Dogra Kashmiri garrison in the territory of the Uiyghurs appears to be interesting. Would like to know more.- Ravichandar <sub style="color:aqua; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My coffee shop 06:49, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I think your interpretation is superior to my random thoughts. "Tibet" in the accession document is most likely a reference to Baltistan, Ladakh, and Gilgit.  The Kashmiri garrison at Shahidulla, in any case, lasted only two summers!   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  14:50, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Articles on highways
I want to know if these articles on state highways satisfy notability criteria.


 * Cuddalore-Chittoor State Highway (SH-9)
 * Cuddalore-Salem State Highway (SH-10)
 * Cuddalore-Sankarapuram State Highway (SH-68)
 * Thiruchchirappalli-Chidambaram National Highway (NH-227)
 * Tiruchchirappalli-Namakkal State Highway (SH-25)
 * Vikkiravandy-Thanjavur National Highway (NH-45C)- Ravichandar <sub style="color:aqua; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My coffee shop 03:12, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, they do. See M-28 (Michigan highway) · M-35 (Michigan highway) · New York State Route 22 · New York State Route 28 · New York State Route 28N · New York State Route 32 · New York State Route 174 · New York State Route 175 · New York State Route 308 · New York State Route 311 · New York State Route 343 · New York State Route 373 U.S. Route 40 Alternate (Keyser's Ridge – Cumberland, Maryland) · U.S. Route 491 · Utah State Route 128. All are WP:FA. --<font color="red" face="cursive">GP <font color="black" face="cursive">Pande 09:38, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It depends. Though we don't have clear guidelines for Indian Roads, there is a general page:Notability (highways).--GDibyendu (talk) 09:47, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * They are inter-city highways in India...definitely notable. AreJay (talk) 05:02, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

The basic requirement for notability is existence of reliable sources. So if such sources (say, government website or gazetteer), can be found, these article are fine; else they fail WP:N. Currently, there seem to be no sources for many of these state highways except wikipedia, its mirrors and this personal webpage - barring additional sources they are unlikely to survive an AFD, if someone did nominate them. Abecedare (talk) 15:16, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes they are. A street diretory counts as a reliable source already, so I think that notablity/importance of the road is what counts.  YellowMonkey  ( click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model! ) 04:25, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I've been assessing some of the articles when I chanced upon these. I thought of verifying whether they could be "speedy" material before assessing them. But from the discussions here, I could infer that they are not "speedy" material though it is doubtful whether these articles would survive an AfD. Hence, for the time being, I've assessed all these articles. If someone feels that any or all these articles need to be deleted, we could have an AfD at a later stage. Thank you very much friends. - Ravichandar <sub style="color:aqua; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My coffee shop 16:50, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Important Sanskrit Language Proof Reading Help Request
Dear Friend,
 * Greetings from Sanskrit Language Wikipedia.Proof reading of translation at beta wiki at following links is very important priority for sanskrit Wikipedia.Please do help sa far as possible.Thanks and Regards Mahitgar (talk) 16:47, 21 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Currently 8.56% of the MediaWiki messages and 0.00% of the messages of the extensions used by the Wikimedia Foundation projects have been localised. Please help us help your language by localising and proof reading at Betawiki. This is the recent localisation activity for your language. Thanks, GerardM २०:२८, १२ पौषमाघे २००९ (UTC)
 * PS Please help us complete the most wanted messages.


 * I am writing to you to promote a special wiki called Betawiki. This wiki facilitates the localisation (l10n) of the MediaWiki interface. You may have changed many messages here to use your language in the interface, but if you would log in to for example the Japanese language Wiktionary, you would not be able to use the interface as well translated as here. In fact, of 1,736 messages in the core of MediaWiki, 1.48% of the messages have been translated. Betawiki also supports the translation of messages for 126 extensions, with 2,174 messages. Many of them are used in WMF projects and they are vital for understanding the wiki. Currently *.**% of the WMF extension messages have been translated. Translators for over 90 languages contribute their work to MediaWiki this way every month.


 * If you wish to contribute to better support of your language in MediaWiki, as well as for many MediaWiki extensions, please visit Betawiki, create an account and request translator privileges. You can see the current status of localisation of your language on MediaWiki.org and do not forget to get in touch with others that may already be working on your language on Betawiki.


 * If you have any further questions, please let me know on my talk page on Betawiki. We will try and assist you as much as possible, for example by importing all messages from a local wiki for you to start with, if you so desire.


 * You can also find us on the Freenode IRC network in the channel #mediawiki-i18n where we will be happy to help you get started.


 * Thank you very much for your attention and I do hope to see some of you on Betawiki soon! Thanks, Malafaya@Betawiki ०१:४९, ५ फाल्गुने २००८ (UTC)

History of Mumbai is at FAC
History of Mumbai is at FAC at Featured article candidates/History of Mumbai. Comments, Suggestions are welcomed. Thanks, Kensplanet <b style="color:black;">T</b><b style="color:green;">C</b> 12:01, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Blacklisted URL
I wish to create an article which references a blog in galatta.com website which has been blacklisted. The blog is actually written by eminent film historian and writer Randor Guy. It seems that he is yet to publish the material in any book. However, as the whole website appears to be blacklisted, I cannot add this link as well. I would have listed the request in the blacklist removal requests page but it seems that it takes time to get responses. And while I am planning to create a DYK, such a move would not be beneficial- Ravichandar <sub style="color:aqua; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My coffee shop 19:05, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I am afraid, Per WP:SELFPUB Self published blogs are not considered as Reliable sources for verifibility -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 12:06, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * But WP:SELFPUB also states that there are exceptions to this rule. It also states that self-published blogs by "experts in the field" could be allowed- Ravichandar <sub style="color:aqua; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My coffee shop 12:10, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

R. Venkataraman dead
Former President Ramaswamy Venkataraman died today at the age of 98. My deepest condolences to his family! May peace be upon his soul! - Ravichandar <sub style="color:aqua; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My coffee shop 12:08, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I offer you my condolences, Ravichandar, as well as others. He was a great survivor of those legendary times and battles which are history to us. Umar Zulfikar Khan (talk) 11:42, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Black pepper up for FAR
I have nominated Black pepper for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. WhiteArcticWolf (talk) 22:12, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Leander Paes under GA review
Hello there, the article Leander Paes which falls under the auspices of this Wikiproject, has come under review as part of GA Sweeps and a number of problems have been identified and listed on the talk page. If these problems have not begun to be addressed by seven days from this notice, the article will be delisted from GA and will have to go through the WP:GAN process all over again to regain its status once improvements have been made. If you have any questions, please drop me a line.--Jackyd101 (talk) 22:41, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Culture of Thiruvananthapuram: Class A formal review
This article has been rated as A-class. Currently, this is nowhere near A. Is there any way of demoting such articles. Kensplanet <b style="color:black;">T</b><b style="color:green;">C</b> 14:07, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * User:redtigerxyz downgraded it (and Kadamba Dynasty also) by himself, but I have undone it, as a single user does not mark/remove GA/A/FA rating. However, I understand his concern and I have the same curiosity whether there is something like A removal (like FAR/GAR).--GDibyendu (talk) 14:13, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The article is nowhere near start, was nominated for GAR in Apr 08. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 14:20, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Both articles fail "Such articles are required to be passed as a good article" "may need to be a former feature article candidate, prior to the department making a decision on whether to grant an article this grade." criteria of WikiProject India/Assessment. A is in hand of the assessment team of India. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 14:23, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * No, A is not in the hand of a single user. Please indicate where you saw that it can be done otherwise. And BTW, there may exist FA/A/GA rated article which were rated before the standards were redefined. Now the criteria for these are more stringent and now those articles does not look like FA/A/GA anymore. Its not responsibility of Assessment department to go and downgrade all. As an individual user, you can always raise GAR/FAR etc. I do not know the procedure for A removal, which User:Kensplanet is also inquiring about. --GDibyendu (talk) 14:38, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I do not know if a single editor can do it, but FAR and GAR are not the right places for it. It is responsibility of the assessment team to do a class A review. WP Biography, Military_history have WikiProject Biography/A-class review and WikiProject_Military_history/Review. WP India does not have a class A review as yet. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 14:57, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion: The current system with (IMO) ill-defined criterion for A class, and no defined process for assigning/revoking it is untenable. Abecedare (talk) 16:10, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * WP India should set up a formal assessment process for assigning the A class and for revoking it (like WP MILHIST), or
 * Simply stop using this class level in its Quality scale (Does any other project do that ?).


 * Good suggestion. Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment/A-Class criteria gives some guidelines on what to do if a project does not have clear A-class assessment method and how Military History project handles it. We can build a process similar to military history project. However, assessment department should not upgrade or downgrade without request being made to do so. For the three articles which were A-class till yesterday, it seems that for none of them, a GAC was requested. Some individual users rated them as A-class, which was probably OK then, but not now. So, to clean this off, in this exceptional situation, I would suggest that we bring them down as User:Redtigerxyz had done, even though nobody formally requested for that: all three to B or below; and then let editors of these articles follow GA-path formally. If GA is met and FA is not met, then the editors can request for a A-class review within WPIndia project. Please correct me if I wrote something wrong here.--GDibyendu (talk) 17:10, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I was emailed about this. For now, A-class status has been removed.


 * The norms of the assessment department are such that where the article fails to receive recognition at FA level (purely on the grounds of prose/certain issues pertaining to style), but passed GA level, the department will assess the article as A-class. Technically, the assessment department may still assess after GA is met, but it prefers to push articles towards FAC as soon as possible rather than let editors potentially pause their work upon receiving A-class status. Additionally, the assessment department prefers erring on the side of awarding an article another grade (i.e. B or lower) than providing it with A-class where there are central issues (according to any member of the assessment dept.) concerning reliability of sourcing, verifiability, neutral point of view, comprehensiveness, copyright issues, etc. This preference stems from WP India's enforcement of high standards for articles of such high grades, and such expectations are usually expected at FAC by more stringent reviewers. Per what I said at the C-class discussion, if there is a very strong consensus supporting a new A-class system, and assurance that it will not become inactive, then it would be my pleasure to help enact it. However, if this is not possible, then our current system may be the better way to go, at least for now.


 * In the mean time, so as to comply with the norms specified above, "uninvolved" assessment team members are welcome to downgrade articles where they find central issues - however, they should note their action and rationale in the requests section of the assessment page; this would avoid the problem of A-class articles being downgraded or upgraded without the assessment department looking over it before it becomes an archived item. Ncmvocalist (talk) 19:18, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Instead of having the article to be a failed FAC before, IMO the India WP suggest a class A review before, where an article can be judged keeping FA criteria in mind (though not that strict) and a review given by fellow India WP members. Thus, class A pass is a potential FAC. I strongly support a formal A class review: for upgrade as well as downgrade. Suggestions:


 * Any WP India member should be allowed to vote.
 * A valid addressable concern is neccessary for a vote to be valid.
 * A link about a class A review should be left on this page as this page is quite active, so class A review would not die down without a review.
 * A class A review is timestrained say 3 weeks maximum OR should atleast have x (say 5) votes in one direction. Following which an experienced (read "the main members of the WikiProject India Assessment team") assessment department person en/delists it. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 06:00, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * This seems to be a good suggestion to me. A typical review processes for an article should be like peer-review -> GAC -> A-class review within WP India members -> FAC. An experienced editor of FA articles probably can reach GA-level requirements without a peer-review first, and so he/she can skip the first part (peer-review), and use A-class review for a peer-review from peers within the project and once A-class is attained, can go for FAC. I also support that anyone in WP India should be able to comment/support/oppose in A-class review discussion, however, assessment department can decide on review-closing criteria. If there is a consensus on this, then we can also use peer review request for GA-class articles as peer-review-cum-A-class review discussion.--GDibyendu (talk) 06:54, 11 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I think the assessment for A should be made more flexible. We can have a two fold criteria for A status:

=Nichalp  «Talk»=  10:13, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) For those with less than 4 featured articles to their name: to get A status, do the following:
 * 2) Get the article up to GA status
 * 3) Start a PR, and fix comments, and suggestions
 * 4) Apply for A status
 * 5) The A grade assessment is valid for a maximum of three months, after which is needs to be compulsorily reassessed. This should give a user a sense of urgency in getting an article featured.
 * 6) For those with 4+ featured articles to their name, A grade status can be self-awarded if the article is on FAC. Ultimately, its the quality of the article, not X reviews that determine the status. Experienced FA writers who know what to expect from comprehensiveness, prose, and references, certainly should not go through unnecessary red tape to get A grade.


 * No distinction should be made in terms of articles. Every article is different and even experienced editors may have NOT FA quality article and a new editor can create a FA. IMO, a PR (India or general), where the nominator has to explicitly specify that s/he thinks the article is ready for FA, be made compulsory. GA status optional. I am against a time constraint of 3 months. Due to some reasons, an editor can take a vacation that doesn't harm the quality of the article. Instead, class A review - reassessment be initiated for articles which may no longer be fit as A. I am against the "self-award" proposal too, if my interpretation that "self-award" means the nominator evaluates an article to A status, is right. An article can directly go to FAC, if it fails then it can apply to A status if a PR is carried in recent history (3-4 months). -- Redtigerxyz Talk 13:03, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, about the GA thingy, yes, its optional, but a GA status would ensure a minimum level of quality for the project. There is no harm in getting requiring GA status; the criteria is objective, and allows the editor to fulfill with some modifications. As anyone can review the work, the person might no be able to evaluate the appropriateness of comprehensiveness with regards to the project requirements. The other possibility would be to shore up the B-grade criteria to a higher level. Next, with regards to self-awarding; it would only apply to those who have produced featured articles before, and have submitted an article to FAC. This revision was self-rated as A grade. It would be ludicrous to have it rated "B" grade, especially since the quality of other B-grade articles are so bad. Experienced editors should be allowed to assess the quality of articles when eventually going in for FAC without being tied down by red-tape. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  06:47, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Right, peer review cannot be made compulsory. For example, a film article can be expanded by someone not in WP India project. When it becomes GA/FA, it will be rated the same for WP India also, but we cannot force someone to go through peer review just because our banner is placed there. But, for a FA-failed article, if editor(s) ask for A-level review, we can insist on obtaining GA status first, and on going through a peer-review/formal-A-class-review. WP Films also has a formal A-class-review. About, self-rating, marking start can be OK (not referring to your revision of that article), but above that, it is always better for neutral/uninvolved users to mark so than self-rating... --GDibyendu (talk) 07:11, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Some very interesting comments and proposals.
 * I don't accept the argument that self-assessment should be allowed because having B-grade may be considered insulting (to either the article or the editor); anything above B-class should require some formal process. While the current process is not ideal, it is nevertheless above mere self-assessment (and should always be that way). I also couldn't ever support a proposal suggesting that an editor who has produced x number of FAs can skip A-class assessment and do it by themselves; uninvolved experienced reviewers can find problems in articles which are written by (experienced) editors who have some xxx FAs to their name. The red tape is essential at this point because we are at the top of the spectrum in our quality scale; not somewhere in the middle. High standards are a must at this level, and we can neither allow self-assessment, nor put a number on experience.
 * I think that while default is GA status is optional for editors, we should retain the right to insist on GAN prior to allowing it through an A-class process. A point about reviewers: GAN usually requires one uninvolved editor from the wider community to assess it A-class requires several such editors from this WikiProject, and FA requires several such editors from the wider community. Sometimes, GAN is not necessary, however, a lot of deficiencies can be noted at GAN stage by the one reviewer rather than several reviewers eyes being distracted by the same problems and wishing it was fixed to begin with. Additionally, an article that is unable to pass GA is unworthy of receiving A-class, or FA status. So, I think, in cases where the article has not (recently) gone through GAN, we should retain the right to ask for a GAN prior to allowing it through this process - overall, a better use of our resources, and a better result for the project.
 * The 4 dot-point suggestions made by Redtigerxyz at 06:00 11 January 2008 seem good to me.
 * I don't feel strongly either way about peer-review. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:18, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

IMO, It's time to create WikiProject India/A-class review. So starting it. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 06:18, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Should i delist Culture of Thiruvananthapuram as well as Thiruvananthapuram if there are no objections, to start over again? -- Redtigerxyz Talk 06:32, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * When you do so, please add in the talk page what to do now. It will be also a good idea to inform the major contributors of these pages about what they need to do to obtain higher rating.--GDibyendu (talk) 06:37, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I am delisting Culture of Thiruvananthapuram immediately as it is nowhere near A right now. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 06:41, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Since this page is talking about a department (A-class review department), I would suggest that this department can look into the following activities also:
 * Ensuring that GA-reviews are done within a few weeks, by either doing the review or requesting prospective reviewers to do so. Currently, there are four articles, which nobody has started doing a review as shown in the 'Article Alerts page'.
 * Identifying articles which may get a higher rating with cleanup/polishing and notifying major contributors of the article or WP India about it.--GDibyendu (talk) 07:37, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Just a note; when the A-class review system is near completion, I wish to be notified both on and off-wiki, along with all other assessment department members. This is to ensure any inactive members are given a chance (1-2 weeks) to look over it, and discuss/make any changes. After that period, if there are no further objections, I intend on formalising the system by inserting it into our quality scale and removing the "WP India quality scale is still being updated" notice from the assessment page. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:42, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Since this is a "new" system, it is better to get more heads together for a consensus on the structure and functioning of the system. Worth the wait. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 06:08, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The new system is what I'm waiting on (rather impatiently, to be honest). Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:48, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Inviting everyone's thoughts on making a review page, similar to the WP Films review dept. page. Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:21, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I support this idea. However, I myself may not be able to participate in it right now, though I can help if needed.--GDibyendu (talk) 13:42, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Oberoi prodded for lack of sources
I prodded Oberoi as it is unreferenced. If anyone has any references to contribute, please feel free to remove the prod. Thanks :) WhisperToMe (talk) 03:22, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe Wikipedia policy is to encourage expansion, references and improvements. To PROD such an article does not seem to be the right step, especially after it has been around for more than 2 years. VasuVR  ( talk,  contribs ) 06:10, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree; if you're willing to spare the time to prod an article, then I'm sure you could spare the time to check it's notability and help build it. If you genuinely feel that the article is not notable (because you can't find anything on it) and you feel it should've been deleted 2 years ago, you could've made better efforts to find out why it was considered notable. And as for lacking sources, that's what "unreferenced" tags exist for. WhisperToMe, your disruptive approach ("Will this force people to source this?") is not appreciated. Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:59, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Ncm, Let us AGF his efforts.WTM, But certainly PRODing articles is NOT the best way to ask for references. If possible do a simple google search and you are very likely to get enough references if it ever exists. Still lazy for doing this or the topic is not of your interest ? Add a unreferenced tag ( TW helps you do this very easily). Happy editing! -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 08:46, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes its done in good faith...coz he/she even took the effort to inform the concerned project abt the action taken by him/her. --&mdash; KnowledgeHegemony talk 18:06, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Even members of this project think that it is right to remove large chunk of meaningful text when they find it unsourced. Not believable? Check Talk:Shabana Azmi. --GDibyendu (talk) 19:18, 30 January 2009 (UTC)