Wikipedia talk:Overcategorization/Archive 16

Sportspeople by event
I would like to add sportspeople to WP:PERFCAT. There is no reason to believe that a player playing in a certain event is more defining than an actor performing in a certain production. Categories_for_discussion/Log/2014_May_11 resulted in a delete in 2014 and Categories_for_discussion/Log/2021_January_18 is about to close as a delete as well.--User:Namiba 14:45, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment - I think athletes competing at certain levels is pretty defining for sportspeople in a way that specific performances aren’t for artists. Is your intent to include the sub-categories for cases like Category:FIFA World Cup-winning players and Category:Summer Olympics medalists by year? It seems like some of the biggest and probably most controversial cases should be tested before blanket statements are added to this guideline. Rikster2 (talk) 22:35, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment I'd suggest seeing the result of a CfD for the world's most popular team sport at Category:Association football champions (and its subcats) before we can generalize.—Bagumba (talk) 01:29, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Agree we have axed many so far - I could see an exception for Olympics because most of those sports don't have a professional league at all or they do with very different competition conditions (there are bicycle racing professionals but most seem to be road courses, not relatively short sprints; similarly, professional boxing differs substantial from its Olympic namesake). As for Category:FIFA World Cup-winning players; who won was the team, right? It's a team sport last I checked and the guy who sat on the bench for the entire tournament but was signed to the team gets the same kudos as the stars; hence, not defining. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 19:58, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Agree, the underlying principle of WP:PERFCAT should apply to all occupations including sportspeople. Of course there can be rare exceptions to be discussed on a case-by-case basis, but that too should apply to all occupations. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:23, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I think there is a pretty fundamental difference between the context that artists perform their craft and the contexts within which sportspeople compete. I put a discussion notification at a couple of sports projects (football, Olympics, basketball) so folks can make their case as to why this should or shouldn't happen. Rikster2 (talk) 20:45, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose, kind of I generally agree with the sentiment, but there are certain categories which DO define players which ARE easily verifiable. I think it's clear that a category like 1992 Stanley Cup winners would not be okay, but a category of people whose names are on the Stanley Cup is defining and not performative. I think the exceptions are limited, but when they exist, they're pretty clear (and yes, a player who is on the bench and does not appear in the World Cup final is a World Cup winner.) SportingFlyer  T · C  19:20, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Clearly, there's not an agreement on the Stanley Cup champions in particular since that category has survived a whopping 4 CFD nominations! The claim was made in the most recent discussion that categories for sports players in general couldn't even be considered under WP:PERFCAT. - RevelationDirect (talk) 09:34, 7 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Olympic Comment The Olympics are a single performance but are undoubtedly WP:DEFINING for the participants, heck it's usually why the biography is WP:NOTABLE. We need not be squeamish about that exception because we make a similar one for Category:Reality television participants. The difference is that those people often are temporarily in the spotlight so they generally don't lead to category clutter based over the course of a career which is what WP:PERFCAT is all about. - RevelationDirect (talk) 09:24, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * But it isn’t a one-off. It’s no different than the FIFA World Cup for example. Rikster2 (talk) 12:08, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Events occurring every year (like professional sports league championships) should be treated differently than the foremost global competitions occurring once every 4 years.--User:Namiba 14:48, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Why? It is "performer by performance" either way (if you buy that competition is the same as performance). Rikster2 (talk) 15:56, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * If FIFA World Cup players typically don't have articles written about them after that game because they otherwise wouldn't have an article, that would also be a clear exception. I'm not trying to conflate notability and definingness here but, if someone is notable for a single reason, it's hard to argue against categorizing by that. - RevelationDirect (talk) 15:35, 7 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Agree We should accept performance cat with a broad lens for any career where the typical member of an occupation would have category clutter from all the individual tasks they performed. This includes traditional performers, sportspeople, but also mountain climbers by mountain, politicians by blue ribbon commission, and other examples we've already seen in CFD. - RevelationDirect (talk) 09:35, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Nothing in this guideline as written sounds like sports. Competing in an Olympics, or a FIFA World Cup or winning a Stanley Cup is career-defining for thousands of athletes in a way that playing Doctor Who or performing anal sex scenes is not. There was a discussion going about Stanley Cup winners that just ended “no consensus” and I think it is unwise to change the guideline until these high-profile cases are tested through CfD. Go ahead and have the tough discussions before changing a guideline based on a handful of opinions here. Rikster2 (talk) 12:07, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The Super Bowl and World Series aren't high profile enough, Rikster?--User:Namiba 14:47, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Why don't you nominate the World Cup and Olympics if you feel so strongly, Namiba? If you truly think sports fits under this guideline then take on the most prominent examples. Rikster2 (talk) 15:55, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm actually okay with that approach too and letting the consensus emerge from various nominations. This suggestion is based off the Stanley Cup discussion where an editor felt that sports players shouldn't even be considered under WP:PERFCAT and the proper venue was here to discuss the WP:PERFCAT guideline. The main thing is we can't have a Catch-22 where WP:CFD sends an issue to this page and WP:OC sends them to CFD; these categories need to be discussed in some venue. - RevelationDirect (talk) 15:44, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Personally, I think there is a big difference between the Olympics / World Cup / international competitions and team-based collegiate and professional championships which occur every year.--User:Namiba 17:07, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Are suicide methods a defining characteristic?
Based on my examination of subcategories of Category:Suicides by method (almost entirely biographies) I really don't think so. Cause of death is rarely defining either, that's why there are notes on common death causes such as Category:Deaths from cancer that "Generally, this category should include only people who are notable for having or dying of cancer". But there's a lot of suicide method categories and they've been around a long time, so I'm reluctant to start nominating even ridiculous categories such as Category:Suicides_by_firearm_in_Albania. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  05:44, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Would there happen to be any already existing lists on the topic? - jc37 09:31, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

"Wikipedia:TOPTEN" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Wikipedia:TOPTEN and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. –LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄ ) 20:25, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

RfC on WP:OCAWARD
Is WP:OCAWARD being interpreted too narrowly? Many categories for state honours and decorations are being deleted as "non-defining". Are they really, as argued, "non-defining"? Who decides this? Is a person really any less defined by a great honour they receive from their country than by which town they were born in or where they went to school or university? This fundamentally goes to the root of what we categorise and why we categorise. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:18, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * what is your brief and neutral statement? At over 3,500 bytes, the statement above (from the tag to the next timestamp) is far too long for  to handle, and so it is not being shown correctly at Requests for comment/Biographies. The RfC may also not be publicised through WP:FRS until a shorter statement is provided. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 19:08, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Apologies. I'm sure last time I started an RfC it didn't have to be that short! -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:30, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 18:10, 16 April 2021 (UTC)


 * This doesn't seem like a RfC that people can provide a clear answer on. Anyway, I disagree with your claim above. Nobel Prize clearly makes people famous above and beyond the scientific discoveries that they made, which might otherwise be known in their scientific field but not get news coverage. Same with bravery medals, many soldiers perform brave deeds but only those that are recognized lead to notability. We've been doing a great job clearing out awards that are just given out during state visits and other nondefining awards, which are often so unimportant they aren't even mentioned in the bio (thus being a verifiability issue). . (t &#183; c)  buidhe  20:15, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Indeed, but these sorts of awards are not what I'm talking about. I'm referring to state awards that are actually earned, but whose categories are being deleted because a handful of editors (usually no more than three or four) have decided that they are "non-defining". -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:32, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The lack of editors contributing to CFD is very real and cuts across most topics which generally get three or four participants. I attribute that dwindlign participation to not displaying categories on mobile view but, regardless of cause, it's a problem. - RevelationDirect (talk) 16:18, 6 May 2021 (UTC)


 * If it's not mentioned in an article then that article shouldn't be categorized by it, so that's an easy situation to address. If we don't have an article on the award then we also should not categorize people for having been awarded it. Beyond that, it seems simple for most notable awards to just have article-space lists of their recipients. Not everything can be a category, which is the whole point of this guideline. postdlf (talk) 22:00, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Examples of recent Cfds: Categories for discussion/Log/2021 April 9, Categories for discussion/Log/2021 April 9, Categories for discussion/Log/2021 April 7, Categories for discussion/Log/2021 April 6, Categories for discussion/Log/2021 April 5, Categories for discussion/Log/2021 April 3, Categories for discussion/Log/2021 April 3, Categories for discussion/Log/2021 April 1, Categories for discussion/Log/2021 March 29, Categories for discussion/Log/2021 March 28, Categories for discussion/Log/2021 March 28, Categories for discussion/Log/2021 March 27, Categories for discussion/Log/2021 March 27, Categories for discussion/Log/2021 March 25, Categories for discussion/Log/2021 March 24.
 * But it is highly subjective as to how defining or non-defining an award is. One pro-deletion comment on a recent CfD was: These people are not notable for getting the award, they are notable for other things. But this could refer to any award. For instance, nobody is notable for receiving an Oscar or a Nobel Prize; they are notable for doing whatever it was that earned them that award in the first place. The award merely emphasises their notability. We should certainly delete categories for awards that are made simply for being there or doing one's routine job (e.g. long service awards, campaign medals, wound awards) or awards simply for being a member of a royal family or a visiting head of state, but should we be deleting categories for awards that are actually earned? Particularly when most of those deletions follow a debate with only a handful of opinions being expressed by the same editors. The fact that some of the people (or even most of those currently in the category) who were awarded the honour may have been foreign nationals awarded it in an honorary capacity is irrelevant if most of those awarded it were citizens of the nation for their services to the nation. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:30, 16 April 2021 (UTC)


 * I find comments like this one, from one of the editors prominent in the deletion of these categories, particularly disturbing: I have not formed an opinion yet whether the underlying award is defining or not... The award in question is the Distinguished Flying Cross (United Kingdom), a very well-known award that is invariably used as a postnominal by its recipients and is most certainly defining. Given the comment and given that hardly anyone takes part in these discussions, I am waiting for deletion of these categories to soon get expanded, and I really don't think that is valuable to Wikipedia. My area of expertise is in British honours, but I think many of the non-British honours categories that have already been deleted are defining. One particularly worrying example is Categories for discussion/Log/2021 March 25, which was most certainly defining (and often awarded to British recipients, given the King of Hanover was also the King of Great Britain). The comment that The fact that this was given out widely in England to people with no connection to Hanover is the basis for the nomination seems to me to indicate dogma (we must delete all these categories) winning out over reality (these awards were in reality used as an extension of the British honours system). -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:51, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * DFC was sometimes awarded as an honor, sometimes apparently as a service award for completing a certain number of missions. So in my opinion it is indeed reasonable to discuss whether it's defining. Being useable as a postnominal does not make an award inherently defining, in my opinion. Anyway, such a vague RfC is not going to get useful results. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  11:03, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The DFC was never in any way a service award (in the USAF, maybe, where it is not even a third-level award, but not in the RAF). If it was, it would have been awarded to every pilot who took part in the Battle of Britain, for instance. It was not. An RfC simply provides a forum for wider discussion than is provided by poorly attended Cfds. That is its value. RfCs are a way to attract more attention to a discussion about making changes to pages or procedures, including articles, essays, guidelines, policies, and many other kinds of pages. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:12, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * That's not what was stated at this discussion. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  01:43, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, if someone said it then it must be 100% true! However, it isn't true. Yes, it was indeed sometimes awarded to an officer who undertook many missions with courage above and beyond. But it was (and is) always an honour, never, ever just an automatic "service award" given to Flight Lieutenant Buggins for simply flying a defined number of missions. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:20, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Courtesy I'm a little surprised to find a quote from myself listed as the absolute low point in a WP:CFD discussions without tagging me so I can respond. Despite the lengthy discussion above about the merits of deleting Category:Recipients of the Distinguished Flying Cross (United Kingdom), that category remains and has never been nominated. Rather, the actual CFD nomination was about whether we should keep separate subcategories for people who won that award 2 and 3 times, something we've consistently decided against with other awards. - RevelationDirect (talk) 12:01, 6 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Are they really, as argued, "non-defining"? Who decides this?: The CfD participants. While subjective, defining seems best captured by WP:COPDEF: the reason(s) for the person's notability; i.e., the characteristics the person is best known for (emphasis added by me).—Bagumba (talk) 10:17, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * My point is that with so few participants in the Cfds it needs wider discussion. We categorise many things. We invariably categorise where someone was born or grew up, which schools or universities they attended, etc. Are those usually the "reasons for their notability" or "what they are best known for"? No, they are not. Not even their years of birth or death are. Yet still we categorise all of them. Why those and not other things, such as major awards? This seems pretty random. At the end of the day, why do we categorise at all? -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:12, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * There's a separate type of categorization that COPDEF lays out, standard biographical details, that might account for a lot of what one might not "be best known for". Regarding why we categorize, I've never totally figured it out, which is why I generally dont create new categories anymore nor participate much in CfDs.—Bagumba (talk) 01:15, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I would support deleting all alumni categories, as it indeed isn't defining. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  01:43, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm curious as to what you actually think is defining? And what you see the point of categorisation as being. Because it would appear that our interpretations of the latter are wildly different. I see it as a useful tool to group articles for ease of navigation as stated at the top of Overcategorization. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:20, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Completely agree with your concern on the dwindling number of participants in CFD discussions. Since most readers don't see categories anymore, interest from editors has declined dramatically. If Wikipedia doesn't revers it's decision to not show categories on mobile view, I'm concerned that decline will continue. -RevelationDirect (talk) 12:07, 6 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Two things: I have no idea what this RfC is supposed to be about; and, after a spot-check of five or six of the CfDs, I also would have !voted to delete. I don't see anything untoward going on here, apart from low CfD participation, which has been the case for a long time. SportingFlyer  T · C  18:43, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying it's "untoward" in any way. I'm saying that in my opinion it's being interpreted too narrowly and there isn't enough participation to establish any sort of consensus. Hence the request for wider participation. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:20, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Objection to RfC: Unclear, likely non-neutral question. –LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄ ) 17:37, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't mind an open-ended RFC. These aren't supposed to be votes anyway. But it is less likely that a clear and obvious consensus will emerge when unstructured.Fundamentally categories are a way of helping people find things. The reason to restrict inclusion to defining cases is ultimately because if every bio, or more generally page, with a tangential connection is included they cease to serve the purpose of aiding navigation, because most of the contents are not what people are looking for or thinking about when they browse the category. More specifically on the OP's point, the answer really comes down to whether allowing browsing by decorations/honours aids navigation, being mindful that while no one additional category impedes quick reference that past a certain point it becomes increasingly difficult for the casual reader to survey and search from the linked categories at a glance. But that's just my assessment, YMMV. 31.41.45.190 (talk) 15:01, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The originator of this RfC is now copying and pasting to many CFD discussions variants of "Ludicrous nomination and suggests that some editors are determined to delete all categories for awards". Shows a lack of WP:AGF IMO, since as far as I know no one (certainly not me) has actually said they are "determined to delete all categories for awards", and all the nominations are backed up by checks and a rationale. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  21:08, 29 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Support Per Necrothesp. Anyone who thinks that "These people are not notable for getting the award, they are notable for other things" is a reason for deleting a category completely and utterly misunderstands categorisation. A category of award recipients should exist only if receiving the award is a defining characteristic for the large majority of its notable recipients. Also: when did two people become consensus? All the CfDs above should be overturned. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  03:09, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I didn't realise that this discussion was happening until now. I think what I want from this RfC is a clearer definition of what makes an award "defining" or not. It clearly isn't the same thing as "what they are notable for" - notability is a specific thing in a wiki context. WP:DEFINING states "A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define[1] the subject as having" and divides it into the two categories of (1) standard biographical details and (2) "the characteristics the person is best known for" - it seems to me that very few awards fall into category 2 ("Oscar winner", "Nobel prize winner" and the like) and that this fact is where the people who are inclined to delete are coming from. On the other hand, the people who are inclined to keep (which includes me), are either working from the idea that some key awards count as "standard biographical details". I think this is what we are doing when we include awards, like the OBE, NZOM, etc that appear as postnomials, and I'd like to see it extended to the top civil and military awards of other nations... Does that seem reasonable? (with some flexibility built in). But for the Anglosphere (especially American military awards) we clearly go way beyond the top awards. And for Luxembourg, we ended up voting at CfD not to include the top civil award as a category. Furius (talk) 00:20, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * A challenge will be figuring out what the "top" awards really are in practice. If you look at Orders, decorations, and medals of Namibia, Orders, decorations, and medals of Bulgaria, or Orders, decorations, and medals of Brunei the official "top" award is exclusively/automatic given to heads of state, foreign leaders or royalty and that's common. The "real" top award that's actually given for accomplishments is often the further down the list. All that being said, blindly categorizing by the top military and civilian award from each country and listifying the rest would be better than our current system where we get category clutter, inconsistency, and spend a lot of editor time discussing categories most readers can't see.RevelationDirect (talk) 15:59, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, you're right about "top" (which is also unclear on whether it means only the very top or the top couple of awards or what...), but I think that some formulation that is a little more mechanical would save a lot of trouble - at the moment people participating in CfD discussions are regularly talking past each other because they don't agree on what a "defining award" is, and that doesn't seem like a good situation. Although a part of me hates deleting anything, I don't really mind whether the result is a similar number of award categories to present or far fewer. Furius (talk) 16:09, 6 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Exempting British Honours from WP:OCAWARD? I'm confused by the specific rationale for some of your concerns. In this nomination, you indicated that
 * "All British state honours are defining" and that it was "ridiculous" that a British award was nominated under WP:OCAWARD.
 * But in a later nomination, you expressed concern that
 * "We are applying double standards to well-known honours from Anglophone countries against not so well-known (to Anglophones) honours from non-Anglophone countries".
 * Now those nominations had specific contexts but both were general statements that I'm having trouble reconciling. Can you clarify here how you would favor treating British vs. non-British awards? RevelationDirect (talk) 12:19, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * As you very well know, I favour keeping all these categories. My point was that British honours are among the most defining of the lot because they carry postnominals that are invariably used and often titles that are invariably used as well. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:37, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't think "invariably" means what you think it means.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:50, 28 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Procedural oppose. This RFC is procedurally flawed as no attempt was made to reach many involved editors. As far as I am aware, today is the first time that this RFC is being advertised at WP:CFD. The RFC could/should have been mentioned by nominator in every award discussion at CfD that they participated in. Also, we had a very elaborate RFC about OCAWARD just a year ago, the contributors to that discussion could/should have been pinged. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:16, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Categorizing events by venue
This paragraph from OCVENUE should be removed:

"Likewise, avoid categorizing events by their hosting locations. Many notable locations (e.g. Madison Square Garden) have hosted so many sports events and conventions over time that categories listing all such events would not be readable."

On its face, the reasoning is specious. "The category would be too big" is not a basis for overcategorization, otherwise we would not have categories like Category:People. Overly large categories are dealt with by diffusing to more specific subcategories, not by forbidding the large category to exist.

This page is supposed to be a list of non-defining characteristics. The venue where an event occurs is defining. Reliable sources about sporting events and entertainment events universally state the venue where the event occurs. Wikipedia articles about events routinely state the venue in the first 1 or 2 sentences of the lede. Event infoboxes usually include the venue as one of the first fields, such as Infobox boxing match, Infobox ice hockey game, Infobox beauty pageant, Infobox Olympic event.

The main thrust of OCVENUE is that an article about a venue should not be categorized by the events the venue has hosted. That is sensible, because any venue will host many different events over the decades, which could lead to an extreme proliferation of categories. The inverse, categorizing an article about an event by the venue where it occurred, does not cause any such problem. An event has only one venue, so there is no proliferation of categories on the article. For example, if Madison Square Garden were tagged with categories like Category:WrestleMania venues, then its category list would be insanely long. But we can safely tag UFC 281 with Category:Madison Square Garden without such a problem.

We already recognize that the location where an event occurs is a defining characteristic, as we have categories like Category:Events in London. There's no apparent reason why we shouldn't have more specific subcategories like Category:Events at Wembley Stadium.

A little history, showing that there was never any good basis for this paragraph: OCVENUE was first added based on this 2007 discussion, which only discussed categorization of venues by event, and did not mention categorizing events by venue. Then there was a copyedit later that year that added this paragraph, as part of an extensive, undiscussed copyedit of the page by one editor. It appears to have been simply a misinterpretation of the previous language, as reading the original discussion makes clear. Although this paragraph has been there for about 15 years now, it has been invoked only a handful of times that I could find, never with any more reasoning than "because OCVENUE says so" (see for example Category:Mandalay Bay Events Center). This discussion was motivated by two current CfD's seeking to delete many venue-based categories: #1 #2. Toohool (talk) 17:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)


 * This seems to make sense. What about concert tours which do have multiple venues, sometimes very many? I suppose that for them the location no longer is defining? Furius (talk) 21:09, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Indeed, WP:DEFCAT is the rule. If an event occurs in many locations, then clearly no single location is defining. Toohool (talk) 21:15, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Support : There has been a lot of debate about exactly how the wording got into the page (who cares, really?), but the arguments presented now that venue can never be defining are weak. It clearly is the case that an event called "at the Hollywood bowl" is defined by its venue, so the decision not to categorise it as such would be a policy one. The fact that hundreds of notable events have taken place there means that it would be a viable category. Categories for venues that host few events would be prevented by smallcat. Furius (talk) 09:10, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Likewise, avoid categorizing events by their hosting locations, such as arenas that have hosted specific sports events or concerts, convention centers that have hosted specific conventions or meetings, or cities featured in specific television shows that film at multiple locations." William Allen Simpson (talk) 04:01, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose — as somebody who was around at the time. There was no misinterpretation.
 * It originally was called "Locations of specific events", the same discussion now at hand.
 * The venue where an event occurs is NEVER defining. Events can be held in different years at different locations. Recurring events are categorized by populated places, not buildings and structures. Single events may be notable, but are not defined by the location (or size) of the audience, auditorium, or stadium.
 * This has been affirmed several times this year, some 72 times since 2015, and many more back to 2006.
 * There is no reason to regurgitate the rationale every discussion. That's why we use shortcuts: incorporation by reference.
 * Category:People is a misdirection. It is a topic category, not a set category. It is fairly short and easily maintained.
 * Sentences were split as a copyedit into separate paragraphs. The substance was not changed. The wording was improved by :
 * Before: "Avoid categorizing events by the locations of the specific events, such as arenas that have hosted specific sports events or concerts, convention centers that have hosted specific conventions or meetings, or cities featured in specific television shows that film at multiple locations. For example, some very notable locations (e.g. Madison Square Garden) have hosted many sports events and conventions over time; categories for all of these events would not be manageable."
 * After: "There is no encyclopedic value in categorizing locations by the events or event types that have been held there. Many notable locations (e.g. Madison Square Garden) have hosted so many sports events and conventions over time that categories listing all such events would not be readable.
 * It should not be overturned. Merely a few editors repeatedly violate long-standing precedent in hopes that it will be overturned in the future. (See also, the currently disreputable US Supreme Court.)
 * William Allen Simpson (talk) 22:32, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Do you disagree that their location at Wimbledon, London, is a defining characteristic of the Wimbledon Championships? How about The World of Sid & Marty Krofft at the Hollywood Bowl: might having been staged at the Hollywood Bowl be considered a defining characteristic? Largoplazo (talk) 23:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Correct, Wimbledon, London is a populated place (not a venue). No to the Hollywood Bowl, the host venue for hundreds of musical events each year.
 * It hosts hundreds of events per year, therefore... what? How does this pertain to the definition of a defining characteristic? Toohool (talk) 21:15, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 16:43, 30 January 2023 (UTC) William Allen Simpson (talk) 19:35, 31 January 2023 (UTC) William Allen Simpson (talk) 15:55, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
 * A little bit of the edit history that I missed: This edit muddled the meaning of OCVENUE, which was originally clearly only about categorizing venues by event: "Avoid categorizing the locations of specific events, such as arenas that have hosted specific sports events or concerts..." You say that referring to the shortcut incorporates the rationale by reference. But where is the rationale? The rationale in the guideline itself is nonsense (since it mutated from the original language that was talking about something else). The original discussion contains no rationale for this paragraph (there was not a single example given or word written in that discussion about categorizing events by venue). The edits that created this paragraph contained no rationale. The CfD !votes I've seen that invoke this paragraph contain no rationale. So what's the rationale?
 * You've offered a few points in defense of this paragraph but they don't hold any water. If I can paraphrase and then respond:
 * "The venue is not defining. We only categorize by city." This is not an argument, it's just a conclusory statement, i.e. WP:IDONTLIKEIT. With reference to the definition of defining characteristic, how does city satisfy it and venue does not?
 * "An event can occur at multiple venues so it might get categorized into multiple venue categories." This is true of many categories, but we have WP:DEFCAT to deal with it. If an event occurred in many venues, then no single one of those venues is defining. The exact same "problem" exists when you categorize by city. For example, 1996 World Series is categorized in both Category:Sports competitions in New York City and Category:Sports competitions in Atlanta. Some editor might decide that Zoo TV Tour should be added to 100+ different event-by-city categories. Should we therefore delete all of the event-by-city categories? And events can span multiple years. Expo 2020 is categorized in both Category:2021 festivals and Category:2022 festivals. Should we therefore delete all event-by-year categories?
 * "This has been affirmed 72 times." Citation needed. I suspect that you are counting all references to OCVENUE, not references to this paragraph. Do any of those !votes offer any elaboration that might actually justify this rule?
 * What am I missing? Toohool (talk) 21:15, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
 * WP:REHASH. section header change from Locations of specific events to Venues by event did not "muddle" anything. It made the OC section headers congruent with Performers by venue, promoting greater clarity. WP:CATDEFINING explicitly says: the geographic location of a place. WP:NONDEFINING says, if the characteristic falls within any of the forms of overcategorization mentioned on this page, it is probably not defining. Year, plus country, administrative division, political division, and/or populated place (geographic location) are defining; venues (buildings and structures) are not defining per event. As referenced earlier, SMcCandlish added "or vice versa" to the section header, but that was not retained. It is obvious from the text. We do not want to categorize the intersection of any venue with any event under most circumstances, even those mentioned in an article lead or template field. 'Nuf said.
 * Your argument just goes around and around in circles. "If the characteristic is listed on this page, then it's non-defining, and venue is listed on this page, therefore it is non-defining, and that's why we should keep it on this page." Yes, that edit did muddle the meaning. The original language was "Avoid categorizing the locations..." and it was changed to "Avoid categorizing events..." Again, the original discussion and the original language was clearly not about categorizing event articles. Toohool (talk) 02:50, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Apparently, this discussion has run its course. You can make a sentence say anything by skipping words. You skipped of specific events. The "location of specific events" is a venue. Nearly all of the following examples make this explicit: such as arenas that have hosted specific sports events or concerts, convention centers that have hosted specific conventions or meetings, ..... Both "arenas" and "convention centers" are venues. They are "buildings and structures", not a WP:CATDEFINING "geographic location".
 * Yes, you are correct that the original language was about categorizing venues, i.e. what categories can be added to an article about a venue. Toohool (talk) 03:18, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Since you persist in your misunderstanding, please cease twisting my words. We do not add location categories to specific events.


 * Oppose. W.A.S. said everything I would have, in more detail.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:46, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
 * A bit of data: I took a random-ish sample of GA's and FA's where the subject is an event that occurred at a venue. 85% of the articles that I checked (51 out of 60) name the venue within the first two sentences of the lede. (A sample of the articles that did: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10. And some that didn't: 1 2 3 4 5) Some may feel that an event's venue is trivial, but we don't put trivia in the first two sentence of an article. The practice of editors who write and review these articles shows a clear consensus that this is core, vital information. Toohool (talk) 03:17, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * There is plenty of non-defining information in introductions. For example, we do not sort articles based on the precise date, time, or the day of the week in which they occurred. Sometimes events are played in extreme weather, which is often mentioned, but is also non-defining.-- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Namiba (talk • contribs) 2023-02-03 17:55:17 (UTC)
 * These examples prove my point. Time of day, day of week, and weather are usually not mentioned in the lede of event articles and are not defining. Date usually is mentioned early in the lede and is defining, seeing as we have categories like Category:June 2016 events (precise date, maybe not, but that might be because not many dates would satisfy WP:SMALLCAT). Toohool (talk) 04:16, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Had to laugh before I cried. Claiming that such significant events missed the venue.
 * Shostakovich's Symphony No. 7 is justly famous for its change of venue. You missed the venue, because you didn't recognize the location. Every musician who has performed it learns of this history. (Somebody seems to have forgotten that I'd been a professional musician for about 50 years.) But it isn't the venue that's categorized!
 * Eurovision: Come Together has the venue. It's a TV studio stage. Even you don't desire to categorize it!
 * Seneca Falls Convention has the venue. It's a church. Nobody wants to categorize it!
 * et cetera.
 * Twenty years ago, I recycled my saved performance programs in boxes over 6 feet tall. Musicians do know what we perform. Musicians remember with whom we perform. We don't track the stage. I've performed in grand halls, big and small churches, and tiny bars, across multiple states and cities. But there are too many unrelated performers in even tiny bars to categorize them per event. It's just clutter! It does not aid navigation!
 * William Allen Simpson (talk) 08:01, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
 * You're right about #2, that bumps the number up to 86%, thanks. For #1 and #3, check your sentence counting. "There are too many unrelated performers in even tiny bars to categorize them per event." How many "tiny bars" do you know of that would even satisfy WP:SMALLCAT? That tiny bar would have to have been the site of multiple, single-venue, wikinotable events. Do you think that we're talking about reducing the notability standards so that every concert ever performed will have an article? Or do you think that we're going to start somehow categorizing events that are not notable? Toohool (talk) 16:46, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

RFC on WP:OCVENUE
Shall this paragraph be removed from the "Venues by event" section (OCVENUE)? "Likewise, avoid categorizing events by their hosting locations. Many notable locations (e.g. Madison Square Garden) have hosted so many sports events and conventions over time that categories listing all such events would not be readable." This would allow for the existence of categories such as Category:Events at Wembley Stadium. The rest of OCVENUE would remain in place, so that categories like Category:WrestleMania venues are still disallowed. See further discussion in the section above. Toohool (talk) 16:57, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 09:32, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * recent CfD participants citing WP:OCVENUE.


 * Support as proposer. Per my comments in the section above, the venue is a defining characteristic for many articles about events. No good reason for this restriction has ever been given. Toohool (talk) 17:04, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Question - Is the primary reason for this, concerning sports venues? - jc37 19:33, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * No, the argument applies equally to entertainment and mixed-use venues. Toohool (talk) 02:27, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 08:05, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose no good evidence has been presented that the venue is defining for most events. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  18:32, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose It just seems unnecessary. Lukewarmbeer (talk) 18:57, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose most events are not defined by their venue. More often than not, the venue is trivial.--User:Namiba 05:36, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Support: Venue often is defining. The examples of the Wimbledon tennis championships were cited above and events with "at the Hollywood Bowl" in their title. In practice few categories will end up existing because few venues will host sufficient notable events to justify a category. And a venue category that did contain many events, like Category:Madison Square Garden, is no more unreadable than a city category that contains many events, like Category:Sports in Manhattan. Furius (talk) 07:36, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose abuse of process: WP:RFCNOT requires decisions at Categories for discussion. This lost at CfD. Repeatedly. As already noted above, this has been the guideline since at least early 2007, and has been affirmed several times this year, and 72 times since 2015.
 * There is consensus on the part of WP:OCVENUE that prevents Taylor Swift's national tour from being listed in 50 some local categories, so this proposal isn't an across-the-board rejection of the guideline. How many of those 72 instances were because a specific venue category was too large to navigate? - RevelationDirect (talk) 12:17, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't see this as an abuse of process or a violation of RFCNOT since this is not requesting renaming of any particular category. Rather, this is a proper RFC to determine if a new consensus exists to supersede the previous consensus. — Jkudlick &#x2693; (talk) 16:31, 7 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose - William Allen Simpson says it very well. What is being proposed is "categorisation by association" which has been disallowed repeatedly for years, in many many different ways. For example, you don't get categorised because you happen to know a celebrity. And so you don't get categorised because you performed at a particular location. Even if the location is celebrated or renowned. - jc37 09:43, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * This would not allow categorizing a performer by where they performed. Elton John doesn't get categorized for performing at Wembley Stadium, but Night and Day Concert is categorized for having occurred there. Toohool (talk) 02:27, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Lol. Then yes it would. Every celebrity's tours would then be categorized. Even if they don't get a separate article, they can likely get redirects. I really don't think you've thought this through. - jc37 06:29, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
 * What redirects are you talking about? You think editors are going to create redirects to Elton John for every concert he ever performed, just so they can be categorized, and those redirects would survive WP:RFD? Toohool (talk) 16:55, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
 * rofl - yes and yes. Spend some time around CfD. It can be quite the education : ) - jc37 23:52, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 04:35, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Support. Allow but do not require such categories. The venue is defining in certain cases so there should be no prohibition on the categories, but this does not mean all such categories should be allowed. Thryduulf (talk) 10:01, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Weak support. Though I would hate to see a proliferation of such categories, I do feel that in some cases they might be useful - especially in the cases where venue is defining. Given that many sports events are already categorised in categories, adding specific venues within cities doesn't seem a step too far. Grutness...  wha?   10:39, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Support It makes no sense that venues and only venues have a concern about being too large, the opposite of WP:SMALLCAT. The way we handle large categories is with subcategories and table of content headers, and that should be the case here. In fact, grouping events by venue will reduce the oversized categories of events in some cities, where most of these articles sit today. - RevelationDirect (talk) 12:11, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Question about Current Categorization Using Cities To look at an example, the World Wrestling Clash of Champions (2019) was a one-time national pay-per-view event that brought in out of town talent to Spectrum Center in Charlotte, North Carolina. It's currently in the Charlotte city category with no controversy but creating a Spectrum venue would apparently be controversial. How is one location category more or less defining than the other? - RevelationDirect (talk) 12:26, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd prefer that events at a given venue be moved into a subcategory of that venue, e.g. Category:Events at Madison Square Garden. I think this would be better than adding events to the categories for the venues themselves, e.g. Category:Madison Square Garden. This would also allow categories for cities with several venues, such as Category:Sports in New York City, to be categorized by venue, which is allowed per WP:DIFFUSE. Finally, this would remove any concern that the venue isn't a defining characteristic of the event, since the event would no longer be categorized directly under the main category for the venue itself; instead, it would be categorized as an event that took place at the venue. – Epicgenius (talk) 14:24, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose Events rarely are defined by their venues - it's usually the other way around, if anything. Nothing here truly addresses the arguments of WP:NONDEF that is true an overwhelming majority of the time, and I don't see a compelling argument for removing this paragraph to allow for the few exceptions. -fuzzy510 (talk) 15:29, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Support with the caveat that event categories for multi-purpose venues, such as Madison Square Garden, be subcategories of those venues' main categories; e.g. recategorize the various National Invitational Tournaments and Stanley Cup Finals into Category:Events at Madison Square Garden as a subcategory of Category:Madison Square Garden. I do not believe that venues such as Jiffy Lube Live, which exist solely for the purpose of hosting large events such as concerts, should require such subcategorization. Creating subcategories is an appropriate response to having very large categories. — Jkudlick &#x2693; (talk) 16:11, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose per above. If we have cases where the venue is defining, then we need to identify what makes them so and codify an exception with a clear rationale for it.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:39, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Why? What is wrong with treating them as do with every other by location category (i.e. categorising them except where they aren't defining, this being determined by discussion and consensus where it isn't clear)? Thryduulf (talk) 20:33, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I assume I am brought here because of Categories for discussion/Log/2022 April 17. The reason why I noticed that category in the first place was because it was added to Brandenburg Gate. I don't think anyone is willing to say that the Brandenburg Gate is defined by its use for the (1994/first) MTV Europe Music Awards, especially since the MTV EMAs change venue every year. Also note that the following paragraph adds a caveat that reinforces WP:NONDEF: However, categories that indicate how a specific facility is regularly used in a specific and notable way for some or all of the year (such as Category:National Basketball Association venues) may sometimes be appropriate. -B RAINULATOR 9 (TALK) 00:54, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think anyone's suggesting these article get put directly into the venues header category - if you look at the proposal, it is to allow for categories such as to exist. It may not be defining for the venue to have held the event, but it may well be defining for the event to have been held at a specific location. Grutness...  wha?   02:08, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Such categories, I would imagine, would still run the risk of overpopulating a given page with categories, the very thing that WP:OVERCAT is concerned with. My concern is where exactly to apply such rules: must MTV Europe Music Awards be populated with (as of February 2023) 29 categories for each venue that has hosted the award show? Perhaps there's a way to avoid this, such as only putting the individual award shows in each category, but I don't want a proliferation of such categories if they're going to be applied in an arbitrary, inconsistent manner. -B RAINULATOR 9 (TALK) 04:16, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * ...and, as is clear in the original proposal and the other comments here, no-one wants that. If an award like MTV Europe Music Awards is held in dozens of venues, it clearly isn't defining for the event. But if the 2007 MTV Europe Music Awards were held in a specific venue, it would make sense for it to go into a category for that venue. It certainly wouldn't lead to overcategorisation of an article - as I said before, it would remove the likelihood of an article being added to a head category by having a venue subcategory. It would also remove the category, which the venue-specific category would be a subcategory of. So effectively it could reduce, not increase, the number of categories on an article. Grutness...  wha?   05:00, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * the proposed change says nothing about a few Events subcategories. While that idyllic scenario is tempting to some, we are here because a few editors tested the system by adding hundreds of events directly to many venues, large and small, mostly sports related. If they'd added them to separate Events categories, nobody might have noticed. Instead, this is an attept to eliminate the guideline — after repeatedly losing at CfD, and earlier here. Reality check.


 * Oppose For most events the venue is not defining. There is also the complication that some events are split over many venues either across years or across matches in an event. -- Mvqr (talk) 12:27, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
 * So you wish to prohibit appropriate categorisation for those events where it is defining? Why? This is a proposal to allow categorisation where it is appropriate, not to require it where it isn't. Thryduulf (talk) 20:57, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment Most of the "Oppose" iVotes disagree with allowing events to be categorized by a single venue and I appreciate those perspectives. A few of the Oppose votes are against putting travelling/reoccurring events in many venue categories but I don't think that's the intent of this proposal. - RevelationDirect (talk) 11:17, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment [I'm only here because I was pinged because of a 2016 CfD I commented on—not exactly "recent".] What I'm not clear on is what the question is that would be answered by having categories such as "events at Wembley Stadium", or "events at Mount Smart Stadium". I know that the latter is sometimes hired for large weddings. Is there a risk of cruft being added to these categories, if they become allowed? Beeswaxcandle (talk) 20:46, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
 * It answers the same question as any other category I suppose, what articles do we have on topics that share this fundamental characteristic? A venue may have hosted lots of non-notable events, but those events wouldn't be in the venue's category because the articles don't exist. They still have to satisfy WP:N. Category:Events at Mount Smart Stadium can be thought of as just another more specific category to diffuse articles from Category:Events in Auckland. Toohool (talk) 16:30, 11 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Comment - I see a lot of focus on Madison Square Garden. But you all do realize that this will apply to every sports stadium (amateur and professional), outdoor field, theatre, movie theater, casino, airport lounge, cruise ship, etc., right? And the events thereof could thus be one night events or long term engagements, celebrity tours, book signings, art exhibitions, archery exhibitions, renaissance fairs, and many many other things. If this passes, enjoy your Pandora's Box... - jc37 06:25, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Total non sequitur. If that were true, then categories like Category:Events in New York City would already be awash with those sorts of things. Event articles still have to meet WP:N. Only a tiny percentage of venues could ever have enough articles to satisfy WP:SMALLCAT. Toohool (talk) 16:55, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
 * No, because this (Venues by event), and Intersection by location, among other things, exist. - jc37 23:57, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
 * We're talking about a categorization guideline here, not a notability guideline. Changing this guideline will not allow the creation of articles or redirects on non-notable events. Toohool (talk) 04:20, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I hate to break it to you, but it's not uncommon that - in practice - there isn't a lot of separation between the two when it comes to categories. - jc37 05:30, 13 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Support These categories could certainly useful, as the locale is a defining aspect of some events. We shouldn't go overboard though; this type of categories should only be considered for significant, well-known locales (e.g., Times Square) that frequently host events. Otherwise we will end up with hundreds of WP:SMALLCATs, like . Edward-Woodrow (talk) 20:21, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Definingness and spoilers
@Deiadameian and I just had an exchange about whether Death on the Nile (2022 film) belonged in the category Category:Uxoricide in fiction and although I think it does not, they raised an interesting point about whether a characteristic might still be defining even though it is not commonly and consistently described as such, if the reason for sources not to describe it that way is because of the convention to avoid spoilers. In other words, could spoiler-avoidance be a legitimate reason for a defining characteristic to be unable to pass the “commonly and consistently” test, and if so what additional test might we use to determine definingness? Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 19:57, 12 May 2023 (UTC)


 * No, because Wikipedia is not censored. That a plot point is not emphasized in sources that respect spoilers does not weigh against definingness — and many film reviews do not — and in fact any details that involve a "spoiler" are likely to be plot-significant enough to support definingness. –LaundryPizza<b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 21:28, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
 * OK, but even non-spoiler-free sources will almost always avoid elevating plot details to a characteristic of the film when introducing it in “subject is adjective noun” form, even if they discuss that plot detail freely in their analysis. Are you suggesting something about plot-significance as an additional piece of guidance for determining definingness? Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 07:03, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Unexplained revert
On 08:38, 5 June 2023, User:Jc37 did revert my edit that I made moving "examples to avoid looking like hatnotes, per WP:LEGITHAT". The revert was not properly explained, only stating, "undo removed text", which is inaccurate, because I moved text, not removed. Maybe Jc37 didn't see that I had just moved the examples to later on the paragraph? The way they are is confusing, they actually look like hatnotes, and I think they serve better by being properly placed after the guidance not before. Usually examples are provided after the fact not before. Regards, Thinker78  (talk) 05:04, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I saw that, and understood that. If removal of text was unintentional, then I suggest that you may want to go back and look over your edit.
 * If you were just moving the examples, while not changing or removing text, I wouldn't have reverted. - jc37 05:16, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Can you pinpoint your objection specifically please? Regards, Thinker78  (talk) 06:09, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Though that's part of the issue. You did such a large edit, it's apparently not simple even for you - who did the edit - to tell what you did.
 * If you do it again, I suggest that you might want to do it in smaller chunks next time.
 * Anyway, after seeing EPON, I decided it wasn't worth trying to find more, and just reverted.
 * So to start with, you might want to take a look at EPON. - jc37 06:36, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think that's the only thing that I accidentally removed. You do have a point. Do you have any advice on the size of editing chunks in general or do you have some essay or info page in mind? I used to publish edits by paragraph or sentence but then I decided to just publish organically when I felt the edit was complete. Regards, Thinker78  (talk) 06:55, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I think you can use your judgement and play it by ear.
 * Though typically if you have to scroll more than a page when looking at the diff in preview, it might be too much. It varies by person, and what you're doing. Sometimes one section at a time is best, and sometimes taking care of a single type of thing over the whole page is better. It just depends.
 * If the edit gets to be bigger than you can easily parse, then splitting them up is probably a good idea.
 * Because it may be difficult to tell changes when looking at difs of large chunks of moved text, when I move a large amount of text, I typically do not also edit the text in the same edit. and I usually make a point to note that in the edit summary: "moving X due to Y - no text was changed."
 * I hope this helps. - jc37 07:26, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your advice. Regards, Thinker78  (talk) 03:08, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Revert even after discussion
Hi. On 03:16, 10 June 2023, User:Carchasm made a complete revert of the work I had done in this page with the summary, "Please stop making nonconstructive edits to project pages". Not only it took me a while to do it, but I did it following the advice of User:Jc37 in the thread above, titled "Unexplained revert". Therefore, I am at a loss why Carchasm reverted. I am actually experienced making changes in policies and guidelines, therefore I believe Carchasm assertion is not only unjustified but belittling in an uncalled for manner. Sincerely, Thinker78  (talk) 04:00, 10 June 2023 (UTC)


 * This is already being discussed here. &#32;- car chasm (talk) 04:17, 10 June 2023 (UTC)