Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship/Archive 140

Records
Just curious; what's the fastest time from joining the project that an editor has become an admin?  Balkan Fever  09:09, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd say few weeks in the beginning of Wikipedia, when admins were declared by request on the mailing list, like User:Ed Poor.  So # Why  09:20, 26 July 2008 (UTC)


 * More interesting would be if (and if, how) the average "project participation age" until adminship has changed over time. Also, IIRC, it was once shown that e.g. the —strictly statistical, of course— probability of a user becoming an admin has a peak and starts to sink after a certain amount of time, i.e. if you're not an admin by then, your chances of ever becoming one approach zero. user:Everyme 09:30, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I guess that's because if you haven't got it by a certain point you're either 1) not interested in becoming one or 2) have (as I have) cocked up and applied so many times your chances of success are minimal and you don't bother going for it anymore. I wonder what the stats on number of admin requests would be; I.e as the number of requests by one user increases, so his chance of succeeding in one falls. Ironholds 09:33, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
 * No, I think it's more like the people who have been around for a while 1) don't need/want the tools, 2) don't want to go through this process, 3) have so many edits that they are frowned upon, and 4) have enough edits that they've probably made somebody somewhere upset. If I were to guess, I would say that one's chances of passing an RfA decline after 10K edits.  The optimal candidate, based on my impression, has 7-9 months experience and 5-8K edits.  More than that seems to be a issue... less than 5K edits and 6 months experience is also an issue for some.  I think the key isn't how long you've been editing, but how many edits have you made... Candidates with 15K edits RARELY seem to pass.--- Balloonman  PoppaBalloon 14:13, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I think that the answer lies somewhere between six and nine months at present, with a minimum level of contributions being somewhere between two and three thousand. It's worth pointing out that these are by no means minimum standards, and more of a gut feel from recent successful adminship requests. Hope this helps,  Gazi moff ( mentor / review ) 11:07, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

The minimum edit threshold is probably pretty accurate but I'm not so sure the 6-9 month window is right. I know several admins who were wikians over a year and some 2 years before becoming admins. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 12:14, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Well you get it work out as a bell curve, i'm guessing. The core could be 6-9 months, but with 1,500-odd admins there are going to be a LOT of outliers. I know of one admin who made it after 4 months. Iron<b style="color:#808080">ho</b><b style="color:#696969">ld</b><b style="color:#000">s</b> 12:51, 26 July 2008 (UTC)


 * If you ignore the couple clumsy edits in 2006, and the sporadic IP edits between then and Jan 15, 2008, it took me about 4.5 months. – xeno  ( talk ) 13:18, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I have seen cases where it's as short as one month, during the 'Golden Ages'. - Mailer Diablo 13:24, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You mean the times before the advent of tactical voting? Must have been wonderful. <span style="font-family:lucida sans, console;">user:Everyme 13:32, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yup, the days where adminship was really considered no big deal yet. - Mailer Diablo 15:40, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Cool. Anybody know about cross-wiki records records in other wikis? Maybe there's a thing on meta?  Balkan Fever  14:28, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
 * What, making admin in several wiki's within X months of each other? Stewards, of course, don't count; they have some kind of zen thing where they are admins on all wiki's simultaneously :P. <b style="color:#D3D3D3">Ir</b><b style="color:#A9A9A9">on</b><b style="color:#808080">ho</b><b style="color:#696969">ld</b><b style="color:#000">s</b> 14:07, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, I just meant records in other wikis (French, Sicilian, Kannada etc.).  Balkan Fever  14:28, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You will have to check with them separately. Cultural differences and difference(s) in policy makes it as such there is little interest in crunching data and publishing it. Meta is pretty dry save matters relating to global rights. - Mailer Diablo 15:39, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, the less users a language wiki has, the easier it is to gain sysop there. En-wiki or de-wiki for example have very high standards based on the fact that they are very large while projects like simple-wiki or da-wiki have most likely less strict rules for sysopship. ;-)  So # Why  15:32, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, de-wiki. That legendary place where vandalism is minute due to the small number of people who speak german compared to those who speak english, and those who edit can actually contribute rather than spend their time reverting 12 year olds who lack a sense of humour. It's just down the A3 past candyfloss mountain and the river of gumdrop jelly. <b style="color:#D3D3D3">Ir</b><b style="color:#A9A9A9">on</b><b style="color:#808080">ho</b><b style="color:#696969">ld</b><b style="color:#000">s</b> 09:37, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

The appropriateness of optional questions
I just finished making a statement on the talk page for Gazimoff's RfA. I really did not want to see this happen to such a nice guy. I asked him if he wanted Keepcases question on his RfA, because if not, I would revert it. He said he would consider answering it, and to leave it for now. I undid the edit that removed the question, noting this in the edit summary. And I am to be reverted regardless. We need to establish more than one thing here. What questions are appropriate, and what to do when they are added. Lastly, what should we do when a candidate has offered to answer.  Syn  ergy 19:30, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * My take, let the candidate decide, and make it clear that they have the authority to decide these things. We shouldn't make them answer questions they aren't comfortable with when they don't directly pertain to the candidate's ability to be an admin.  As far as removing the question in question goes, there's no point edit warring over it; if Gazimoff wants to readd and answer it he can and probably will.  <i style="color:green;">lifebaka</i> (talk - contribs) 19:46, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Which is why I haven't re added the question. I still think we should create an essay (I've suggested Optional questions twice already) to reflect what the community thinks about it.  Syn  ergy 19:54, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, after this concludes (by which I probably mean is no longer going anywhere useful, but I've got my fingers crossed) I'd be happy to help you write one. Or write one myself with your help (but then it'd be at User:Lifebaka/Optional questions and mostly just be my opinion, which I might do anyways).  <i style="color:green;">lifebaka</i> (talk - contribs) 21:02, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Guys, whatever happens, just sort it out here, don't edit war over it please. Scarian Call me Pat!  19:50, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I think it is inappropriate for another editor to remove these questions. The candidate has several choices, including refuse to answer explicitly, ignore it (implicitly refusing to answer), answer directly, answer humorously, ask for clarification...all of which are appropriate responses and do, in fact, expand on the community's knowledge of the candidate's demeanor. As I've said elsewhere, as far as I can tell, every one of User:Keepscases' questions is unique and they are pretty hard to "study" for. I will also say that the drug one wasn't my favorite, and this one is a bit morbid, but I would follow up with: how many of us do have a plan for what would happen in the case of our permanent, unalterable, retirement? Frank |  talk  20:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Of all idiotic questions which have been asked at a RFA (and there are/were a lot of those), this one ranks pretty high. Garion96 (talk) 20:09, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Please try to keep your comments at least productive.  Syn  ergy 20:15, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Truth is not productive? :) Garion96 (talk) 20:17, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Truth is relative, hence WP:V requires something stronger than truth. Therefore, no, truth is not inherently productive. SWik78 (talk • contribs) 20:30, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * What I meant Garion, was that calling the question idiotic will not help the situation. I'm asking for constructive comments to produce consensus for future actions. Basically, something to reflect upon for later events.  Syn  ergy 20:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade. It just was an idiotic question. Removing it was a sensible thing to do and should be done again if another one of those will be asked (and it will) in a future RFA. Garion96 (talk) 20:56, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, that essay mostly suggests that we don't, as it tends not to send discussions in useful directions. Exactly what's happening here.  Take it to user talk pages, please.  <i style="color:green;">lifebaka</i> (talk - contribs) 21:02, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, that is the other essay Don't call a spade a spade. But this is getting too unrelated to the topic at hand. My point is still the same, whether you call it an idiotic question or not. I think it is a good thing that the question was removed since it really served no good purpose. Garion96 (talk) 21:20, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

And yet, you weren't the one who asked the question, so you really aren't able to know whether it served its purpose to the editor that did ask it. Frank |  talk  21:22, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I found the question quite interesting. I actually have a request in my will to be added to WP:DIED. Useight (talk) 21:37, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Funny, because I actually did that, too. I think they'll just take it as a suicide threat though, so it might just get rvv'ed. &mdash; Mizu onna sango15 Hello!  23:57, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Hm...I've always wondered how one gets added to WP:DIED. I'll do that and bequeath my negative assets to the Project. Lazulilasher (talk) 15:43, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Sweet...would that work? ;-) Frank  |  talk  20:46, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep me aprised of this situation if it escalates. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 18:24, 29 July 2008 (UTC)


 * If you are granted adminship status, who in real life will you tell about this?. Totally irrelevant, invasion of privacy. – xeno  ( talk ) 15:53, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * These questions are getting ridiculous. I'm guessing this question might be a way to maneuver around an age question? <span style="font-family:Lucida Calligraphy, sans-serif; color:DarkBlue">Mastrchf (t/c) 15:56, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Theoretically it could be, but knowing Keepscases, I'd have to assume good faith and say he isn't trying to circumvent that. Perhaps he's trying to determine how much the candidate would brag and, therefore, possibly indicate that he sees adminship as a trophy. Just a possibility. Useight (talk) 16:08, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * A very possible option also. Either way, I don't think this is relevant in any way. <span style="font-family:Lucida Calligraphy, sans-serif; color:DarkBlue">Mastrchf (t/c) 16:14, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I did remove it, but the candidate answered it nevertheless. Here's another example of the question irrelevance. Rud  get  16:18, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm going to (as usual) jump in against censoring this question. First of all, the candidate can choose not to answer it. Second, it's not a problem to find out a bit about how a person thinks outside of Wikipedia. I don't think it's irrelevant at all and might well serve to illuminate about the candidate. I would add that while "age-ism" is probably wrong-headed, it can work to support a candidate too. My own RfA received some support on the basis of me being a parent (of multiple teenagers) IRL. Relevant? I wasn't asked, and I offered it really sort of casually...and some appreciated it. But it was real - it was about who I am - and at least some editors found it illuminating enough to support me for it. Heck, one even called me a silver surfer, and I'm well under 50 :-) Frank  |  talk  16:19, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not really sure why everyone's so surprised. It's a bit of an odd question (and IMO, unnecessary and probably shouldn't have been asked), but Keepsakes is notorious for asking questions that are sort of 'out there', and they've done this before. Is this really any different from the other questions (s)he's asked candidates? As Frank said, the nominee has the choice of answering the question or not; obviously since this one's so controversial no one's going to oppose him for not answering it, so it's not that big a deal. &mdash; Mizu onna sango15 Hello!  20:16, 30 July 2008 (UTC)


 * It's because of discussions like this that people keep asking questions like that. If there wasn't a porcelain-based typhoon after every odd RFA question they would stop being asked. There does not need to be arbitrary rules about what can and can't be asked, it just needs to be reinforced that if a candidate is uncomfortable with a question they don't have to answer it. ~ Ame I iorate U T C @ 23:29, 30 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Everybody is shouting at Keepscases. What about the question of Kurt Weber? (Are cool-down blocks ever acceptable?)
 * If your answer is “no”, Kurt will oppose your RfA and if your answer is “yes”, others will oppose your RfA. Just look at the RfA of MrKIA11. Masterpiece2000   ( talk ) 08:53, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Its a tricky question. It involves the thought process of the candidate. If the answer is well reasoned, it will be accepted, if not, you will fail. End of story.  Syn  ergy 11:36, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It's an easy one. If you answer inline with policy Kurt will oppose. If you answer against policy, every man and their sockpuppet will oppose. Basic math. ~ Ame I iorate U T C @ 11:39, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Questions about RFA
I'm a relatively experienced editor, but only recently started participating in RFA discussions, and I've got a couple of questions that aren't answered in the Guide to RFA. Just wondering:
 * 1) As well as 'support' and 'oppose' votes, 'neutral' comments are also frequently made at RFA. Are these taken into account by bureaucrats when closing RFAs? A 'neutral' position would seem to me a little like a mild oppose, as it shows that the editor is unwilling to support this candidate; hence, could a candidate's RFA could be rejected purely on the basis of concerns raised in the 'neutral' comments?
 * 2) Similarly: Another common vote is 'Moral support' - in fact, I just made one myself. But then I thought I should probably check exactly what it means. Does 'Moral support' mean 'support, despite reservations'? Or does it mean 'I wish I could support; morally, I would; but I actually can't for such-and-such reasons'? If it's the latter, that's really more of an 'oppose', and should perhaps be listed in the other section. How do Bureaucrats treat these?
 * 3) Lastly: after receiving some myself, I'm just wondering if Wikipedia has a policy on RFA 'thankspam' - talkpage messages by candidates to those who commented on their RFA. Is it possible to opt out of receiving these? Personally speaking, if I've commented on an RFA, I'm going to check up on it later to see if it passed or failed - I don't need a message telling me such. (It also seems to me that placing a template on the talkpage of 100 or more users might qualify as Excessive cross-posting, but perhaps I've misunderstood that policy.)

Thanks in advance to those who can answer these questions! Terraxos (talk) 23:34, 30 July 2008 (UTC)


 * For all practical purposes neutral votes don't matter, they aren't in the math. But they are taken in to account by other !voters, and if the RfA is very close, could be examined by the crats.
 * Moral support is the latter, basically "I would oppose, but I don't want to make you feel bad, and this is not going to pass anyway".
 * Nope, that is a long tradition. Prodego  <sup style="color:darkgreen;">talk  00:28, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Since this is a discussion and a subsequent evaluation of WP:CONSENSUS, I think that neutral comments are definitely important to the process. Many, many times, editors will change their stance during the process. Sometimes they'll move from neutral to an actual side, sometimes from oppose to support...it happens all over the place. The point is that this is a discussion, not a vote, so it is definitely important. It's easy to say after the fact that "the math showed xx%", but it's a far different story when you watch it unfold.
 * Moral support amounts to the same thing - it's part of the discussion. My own take is that editors generally intend that to mean "this isn't going to pass, but I support you anyway because I like what I see and I want to say so rather than just pass this RfA by". But that's a mouthful; who knows if that's what people really mean.
 * Some editors specifically request that thankspam not be left on their talk pages. Sometimes, RfA candidates even honor it :-) Frank  |  talk  00:38, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the replies guys. I think I'll just go leave a note on my talk page about thank-you messages. Terraxos (talk) 01:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Cool down blocks
There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Blocking policy about the attempted removal of the provision discouraging cool down blocks from the blocking policy. Nsk92 (talk) 12:40, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the information. Masterpiece2000   ( talk ) 13:31, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Requests for adminship/Islaammaged126 5

 * Would a WP:SNOW or WP:NOTNOW closure be in order? Shapiros10  <sup style="color:chocolate;">contact me <sub style="color:#3D2B1F;">My work  21:29, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Not in my opinion, no. It's running 2/2/1 at the moment.  Fritzpoll (talk) 21:31, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The 2 supports are Moral Support. Shapiros10  <sup style="color:chocolate;">contact me <sub style="color:#3D2B1F;">My work  21:32, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 3/3/1 now. Gears of War  2 21:35, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * (ec)That's a borderline one. I could see arguments for and against early closure. I'd let it run some more, although it's pretty much a sure thing that it won't pass. Nevertheless, we don't early close things just because they won't pass. I'd suggest waiting a few hours and then possibly asking for an early closure.  Enigma  message 21:35, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It's pretty much a lock to make an unsuccessful run, but it should be allowed to run for a bit longer, it's only been going for 30 minutes. Useight (talk) 21:38, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * (e/c)Still, only three opposes - give it some time is what I'm saying Shapiros :) Fritzpoll (talk) 21:38, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * multiple times: Eh, give it a few more hours. There's been one actual support. Shapiros10  <sup style="color:chocolate;">contact me <sub style="color:#3D2B1F;">My work  21:40, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Borderline, let it run and perhaps contact Islaammaged126 and ask him to withdraw, that should always be the first step. There's no hurry. RxS (talk) 21:41, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I've always found it interesting how long some RFAs are open before they snow and how quickly others are snowed. I did some research on it, both comparing the number of edits the candidate has to how many opposers piled on and comparing the number of piled on opposes on a timeline. My data can be seen at User:Useight/No Support. I'm not the best with statistics, but I think there' a decent correlation between piling on and time: in the past, more opposes would pile on before it was closed while now we snow close them faster. If anyone wants to do a real statistical analysis on the data, I have it in an Excel spreadsheet. Useight (talk) 21:48, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreeing with RxS and I think Useight has a point that SNOW is used kinda quickly, this user's past RfAs are a good indication for that. But I think when he accumulates 10-15 opposes (and I count moral supports in that category because they do not support the request but the spirit) and no support, then SNOW is quite likely. On a side note, I think it would be a great idea to have such a statistical analysis, I would do so myself, but I lack the knowledge to do so, but I am sure someone will be able to. It could serve as a guideline to closing crats.  So # Why  21:54, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Indeed. I put the "moral support" there because I honestly appreciate his enthusiasm and didn't want him to feel too bad when the opposes arrived. Closing it before it has a chance to get a few of those opposes kind of defeats the purpose somewhat, but I think we've pretty much reached that point now (there are nine in the oppose section). I'd close per NOTNOW, but I participated; instead I left a message on the candidate's talk page. Useight (talk) 22:00, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Am I alone in believing that offering moral supports (while very nice gestures) may cause the candidate to feel a little despondent - that they require pity supports? Just throwing that out there. Anyway, SNOW closures are rampant lately. Someone drop the candidate a note insisting the likelihood of a fail and see what they wish to do in terms of an official withdrawal.  Wisdom89  ( T |undefined /  C ) 22:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, I see that they have been notified. Might I suggest something else. If you notice that a user has already suggested a withdrawal, don't pile on and agree on their talk page. I find it quite unnecessary and it comes off as just wanting to get a word in edgewise.  Wisdom89  ( T |undefined /  C ) 22:10, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I, too, usually will also oppose instead of morally support (just check my history), but in this case I just felt like it. Useight (talk) 22:18, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, don't worry, Useight, my comment wasn't directed at anyone in particular. I was just wondering how others felt about the abundance of moral supports that pop up when it appears that an RfA will take a downward spiral. Sometimes I even see "moral support" very early on in the process (before a significant number of opposers have even opined) - makes me go..hmmm.  Wisdom89  ( T |undefined /  C ) 22:42, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I won't link to a policy page supporting my view, because.... there is none. But the rational approach, in my opinion, is to snow close RFA's where the applicant doesn't really know what they're getting themselves into. Islaammaged126 has been here long enough that he does know what he's getting himself into, and it shouldn't be snow closed no matter what. If people feel a compelling need to pile on at an RFA that's at 2-20-1, the personality traits that exposes are their problem. If someone doesn't feel the need to withdraw their RFA when it's at 2-20-1, that's their problem. The existence of such an RFA is not disruptive, and we should avoid the deathwatch of trying to decide when to snow close it. RFA snow closes should only be used (again, IMHO) to spare a clueless neophyte the humiliation of getting their head handed to them because they wanted to help and didn't get it that admins need to have been here a while. --barneca (talk) 22:17, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Well said. And I thought we had a moratorium on subjects entitled Requests for adminship/XXX user? – xeno  ( talk ) 22:22, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I am not sure, this is the case here. The answers to the questions show a lack of policy understanding and while I agree that the fifth try can be regarded as "well, he wants it that way!", in this case I think the user still fails to understand how he will be treated. SNOWing is a case-to-case decision after all.  So # Why  review me! 22:28, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * He's done this four times before, and you don't think he has an idea about how he might be treated? --barneca (talk) 22:36, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The tally is now 2/10/2, so at this point, I doubt it has a snowball's chance. Juliancolton <sup style="color:#666660;">Tropical <sup style="color:#666660;">Cyclone  22:38, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

BITE doesn't just apply to newbies
Look, I'm sure those who opposed in Requests for adminship/Natl1 3 had valid points, just as I'm sure I had a valid reason to support (maybe try asking me for clarification if you're confused?), but do we really need to oppose with such civility, or lack thereof? Reading over some of the opposition, some of them seem to be acting as if the candidate requesting adminship is some sort of personal attack against them or something like that. Can we try and assume some more good faith (especially when the candidate has commented on this manner) and not be so accusatory of candidates who, while maybe not ready for adminship, are still good contributors (so please stop insinuating that they're not). —Giggy 06:32, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, welcome to RfA, where the true natures of both candidate and the real world manifest themselves... — Kurykh  06:40, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * And where participants sometimes discard the "respectful" bit of being civil - Peripitus (Talk) 06:50, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with Giggy. At least three of the opposers were unnecessarily snipy. Epbr123 (talk) 18:02, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I've only been here a year. :-) I was kinda hoping we could (try to) avoid the wonderful inherent nature of RfA, though. —Giggy 06:47, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

While I agree, do you (Giggy) not think the candidate would have interpreted your comment as sarcasm/incivility/WP:BITEing? [sic] ~ Ame I iorate U T C @ 07:10, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Well I'd hope my obvious sarcasm would have been interpreted as such. It had serious merit though; he basically explained the justification for my support in his Q7 answer. My concerns are with opposition making out the candidate is trying to stealithily game the system by (God forbid) taking a wikibreak. —Giggy 07:30, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * "Failed to follow self nom instructions ... Sounds like good admin material" - looks more like you're taking the mickey. Sarcasm works really well online because it's so easy to pick up on. ~ Ame I iorate U T C @ 08:05, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Was that sarcasm? Or is this? -- T B C  ♣§♠  (aka Tree Biting Conspiracy)  08:12, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Sometimes, it's the artificial, cloying civility that hurts the most. The type where a user feigns civility when he or she clearly wants to bite your head off. :( -- T B C  ♣§♠  (aka Tree Biting Conspiracy)  07:27, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * But that is what civility is. You don't need to like someone to be civil, just talk to them nicely. You can even tell someone that you don't like what they do in a civil fashion. Civility is not affection, it is politeness, so I don't see how it could be feigned(unless you mean insults and taunts veiled in civility). Chillum  15:15, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Not referring to being polite, but to insults that are worded in such a way as not to violate WP:CIVIL.-- T B C  ♣§♠  (aka Tree Biting Conspiracy)  18:10, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * If it's an insult, it's not civil. Civility in this instance means not rude, and an insult is intended to offend, while politeness, the opposite of being rude, is intended to not offend others.  So, if it's an insult, it violates WP:Civil.  --Blechnic (talk) 18:17, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

WP:BITE = Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers. Yes, Bite only applies to new editors. Experienced editors have WP:CIVIL to cower behind. That aside, I didn't see any of the opposes as being mean or un-civil. People didn't like the fact that he took such a long break, so they opposed on those grounds. To say that people who disagree with you "...seem to be acting as if the candidate requesting adminship is some sort of personal attack against them" isn't really WP:AGFing.-- Koji Dude  (C) 14:41, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, but WP:BITE is only a special case of WP:CIVIL, so there is no real difference. Other than that, everyone is a newbie in a certain field and thus WP:BITE can be used for everyone in a certain way. Also, WP:CIVIL also says that you should not bite experienced editors - you should bite noone ;-) — Preceding unsigned comment added by SoWhy (talk • contribs)
 * >_> Ah, yes, but with BITE being a special case of CIVIL, it is also a specific case, and that specific-ness limits it's use only to newbies. ;-) Bwa-ha!-- Koji Dude  (C) 15:02, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Running for RfA is like saying "Look at me and point out any flaws". Unless a comment is a breach of civility I don't see a problem with pointing out all the reasons someone should not be an admin. Of course, there is no need to be rude while doing this. Chillum  15:18, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * But that's the whole point, often RfA regulars aren't careful enough about harming the feelings of the candidate when they comment. It can be a little hurtful sometimes, so please remember the second of the trifecta. ;-) &mdash; Mizu onna sango15 Hello!  20:38, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Mr IP
I'm all in favor of notnowing this RfA... no, snowing it. I haven't seen something this pointy in a long time... and it is without a doubt a failed RfA... I would kill it myself, but I am too appauled at the gual of Mr IP.--- Balloonman  PoppaBalloon 07:48, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Mighty audacious.  Wisdom89  ( T |undefined /  C ) 07:50, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * NOTNOW is there so people who didn't know exactly what they were getting into don't get demoralized. Mr IP comes off as a guy who knows what he's doing, and as someone who isn't going to get demoralized by negativity. Darkspots (talk) 08:02, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Very true, but SNOW can certainly be invoked. Given that Mr. IP has announced his experimental RfA, it defeats its purpose and he will not walk away with any constructive criticism.  Wisdom89  ( T |undefined /  C ) 08:03, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Endorse snowball closure. NOTNOW is mainly for newbies, but there is undoubtedly not a snowball's chance in the bottom of the seventh layer of Hell that this RfA will succeed. Forgive me if this sounds uncivil. &mdash; Mizu onna sango15 Hello!  08:08, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It's easier said than done, don't get me wrong, but what if Mr. IP ran his own experimental RfA and nobody came? Nobody should feel a moral obligation to comment on an RfA if it's a game. Just ignore him. Darkspots (talk) 08:10, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Agree... NOTNOW isn't the rigt way to clase it, which is why I didn't use it. But SNOW can be... this is a deliberately pointy RfA and here only to cause disruption.--- Balloonman  PoppaBalloon 08:12, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Quote from WP:SNOW: "WP:NOTNOW, an RFA-specific application of the snowball clause" SNOW is probably more appropriate though. It is disappointing that people even give "experiments" like this the time of day and encourage them by supporting. ~ Ame I iorate U T C @ 08:20, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * WP:NOT-EVER-OR-AT-LEAST-NOT-FOR-A-VERY-LONG-PERIOD-OF-TIME is more suitable, then? Again, I really don't mean to be rude, but I have to be honest, this is rather ridiculous. &mdash; Mizu onna sango15 Hello!  08:27, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You know, you did support, oppose, and go neutral. ;)  Enigma  message 08:30, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, like I said; it's a very unusual circumstance. I was ready to oppose when I saw the nomination, but I appreciated Mr. IP's contributions to the Village Pump, and had no negative interactions so I remained neutral. Later, I was convinced to support, but Balloonman and Wisdom89's arguments were strong enough to switch my stance again. Kind of silly, but there were good arguments on all sides. :-) &mdash; Mizu onna sango15 Hello!  17:01, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * There's no reason why the candidate can't try again in a few months when they have amassed more than their current 500-or-so edits. Of course, it'll probably result in a snowstorm of references to this RFA. ~ Ame I iorate U T C @ 08:35, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Mr IP actually has more than 500 edits... but most are under his IP address... he doesn't like to log on. He is actually a farely well established editor here... but that makes this all the more pointy.--- Balloonman  PoppaBalloon 08:38, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I should have clarified that I meant "500-or-so edits on the account they are running for adminship on". Edits spread out over IP addresses can't be checked, vetted and torn apart, like in usual RFA fashion. ~ Ame I iorate U T C @ 08:42, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest that this RfA, while it will quite possibly be SNOW-worthy in time, hasn't reached that point yet. While I agree that the drama-potential is far too high, I think allowing some more discussion first harms nobody. While we may feel it doesn't have "a snowball's chance in hell of passing" at the time I write this there haven't been enough votes to demonstrate that. ~ mazca  t 08:54, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "You may be able to prolong your life RfA, but it's not like you can escape your its inevitable death, is it?"— Jack Krauser, 2005 Koji  Dude  (C) 14:07, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It's the POINTYNESS I oppose.75.53.105.213 (talk) 18:31, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Snowy or not, the guy was just pointing out the obvious fact that the core RfA voting community takes things too seriously. I think closing a deliberate protest expressing a legitimate issue with a recognized problem by a user who is technically and mentally capable of handling the mop makes us look a little like we're hosting the Olympics or something. Hiberniantears (talk) 20:24, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * He was abusing the system to point that flaw out. Talk pages are here for a reason.-- Koji Dude  (C) 22:21, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The fact that anyone thinks it is abuse demonstrates that his point was accurate. Hiberniantears (talk) 02:23, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I definitely wouldn't label it abuse - a waste of people's time in the end, but it started off as just non-blue linked pointy RfA, masquerading as an experiment. Then it became clear that it really was, in fact, a sincere experiment, but doomed to failure because it was made public from the beginning.  Wisdom89  ( T |undefined /  C ) 02:35, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

What?

 * Closed, reopened, all done. Pedro :  Chat  19:57, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Although I opposed the user I strongly object to Mercury's closure of the RFA on the grounds that "statistically, won't pass." That's not a valid reason to close an RFA with 11 serious supports, nor is Mercury deputized to make that sort of determination for the rest of the community. I'd object even from a bureaucrat whom we selected to close such discussions. --JayHenry (talk) 19:18, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I completely agree with JayHenry. Rather POINTY to close it, ironically. Tan      39  19:19, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * True. Whatever you might think about that RFA, imho 8/18/5 is not a score for SNOW. MAybe 018/0 would be, but in this case there was support as well...  So # Why  review me! 19:22, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * If this was allowed to run its full course, then Mr. IP's RfA shouldn't have been closed. I agree completely - CL — 19:22, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * There appears to be no note on Mr. IP's talk about an intention to close, nor has Mr. IP requested it to end, at least on wiki. Given the context of the RFA I strongly suspect that he/she will be rather displeased the "experiment" has ended early. Pedro : Chat  19:23, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I also disagree with the closure, but allow me to be blunt here and say that his experiment is tainted and poisoned by his public announcement, and therefore it has defeated its own purpose. Still, it should remain open at this point.  Wisdom89  ( T |undefined /  C ) 19:26, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * A better example would be the RFA of one of Wikipedia's absolute finest admins and editors: Requests for adminship/DrKiernan. It got off to a worse start than Mr.IP. This was not a valid statistical inference that it was doomed; this was therefore not a valid SNOW closure. --JayHenry (talk) 19:27, 3 August 2008 (UTC)


 * JayHenry, next time, leave a note on my talk. I would have been happy to revert myself.  Does everything have to be dramatic?  I gather of course, this was not likely your intention.  Best, NonvocalScream (talk) 19:24, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I did leave a note on your talk. I raised it here as well because it needed to be brought before the community. --JayHenry (talk) 19:27, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * No you did not, you left a link to this discussion. I mean next time, ask me to revert myself.  This could have been handled so simply like that and did not need to be brought before the community.  I do not need a consensus and long discussion of my actions to realize I may have made a mistake so to revert myself.  Thanks, NonvocalScream (talk) 19:33, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, the "don't be dramatic" defense. Classic. You didn't make a dubious content edition, you closed an ongoing RfA. JayHenry was perfectly within boundaries to post this here and verify that the community shared his concern. Tan      39  19:35, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * And I was perfectly within my right to let him know that I am amicable to reverting myself without long discussions. Best, NonvocalScream (talk) 19:40, 3 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Also people who have !voted (Support or otherwise) in the RFA shouldn't close it, unless specifically requested to by the candidate. –  xeno  ( talk ) 19:38, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yup, hence the quick revert. NonvocalScream (talk) 19:41, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to noindex all RfA pages
<div class="boilerplate metadata discussion-archived" style="background-color: #f5f3ef; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I would like to seek opinions on whether to use on all RfA pages. This could be achieved through one edit - adding <tt> </tt> to  will result in all RfA's and their talk pages being noindexed.

Thoughts? Daniel (talk) 02:49, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * What's the potential benefit? Is RFA pages being searchable in Google really a problem? – xeno  ( talk ) 02:53, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * is used on a lot of pages other than RFA, maybe just bot-add it to all RFA pages?  MBisanz  talk 02:55, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Xenocidic: The fact that many Wikimedians have used their real names and then been accused of various stuff is a problem, in my opinion.
 * MBisanz: Please read my proposed code, it would only affect RfA pages. Daniel (talk) 02:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You know very well I can't read code to save my life, in that case it sounds alright.  MBisanz  talk 02:58, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I know a couple of good standing Wikipedians that have been affected in real life by google indexing. If there's a simple way to remove it, then I fully support it - there's very few reasons why someone should be affected in RL by their actions on WP.  Ryan Postlethwaite See the mess I've created or let's have banter 03:01, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It would be much easier to just edit the robots.txt file to exclude all pages in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/ range, that is what is done with AFD pages. - Icewedge (talk) 03:10, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately that's editable only by our system administrators. Daniel (talk) 03:18, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I disagree with this proposal. I have often wanted to find things on wikipedia (in the wikipedia namespace) and found google a far superior tool than anything else.  Adding no-index to anything that might conceivably hurt someone is over kill.  If there is a RfA which had someone real name AND there were negative things said, AND the user doesn't want it to show up in google, then we can deal with it.  For example he can simply blank the page with the message "blanked for privacy reason; feel free to review the history".  (Bot don't index the history).  Jon513 (talk) 03:15, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "conceivably hurt someone"? There's evidence that pages have hurt people, and it strikes me as irresponsible to wait for a page to hurt someone before doing something about it. That would be like waiting for the subject to complain before we could remove BLP violations. Daniel (talk) 03:18, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed, no reason to wait for someone to get hurt to take action. Making searches more convenient for someone isn't a good enough reason to risk real life consequences. RxS (talk) 03:46, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * How about users just not publish their personal information at RFA? - Icewedge (talk) 03:55, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The warning about not registering with ones real name was only added recently. Many probably don't realise how poisonous RfA can be, and the effect that having your real name in a page title is. Daniel (talk) 04:38, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Would it be possible to include the NOINDEX only if the nominee wants it included? Reyk  <sub style="color:blue;">YO!  04:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, they could use themselves. Advantages are no collateral damage; disadvantages are that people need to find out about this solution themselves and understand what it does, and then add it themselves. Daniel (talk) 04:53, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * So why not include a warning about the potential dangers in the RfA documentation? Reyk  <sub style="color:blue;">YO!  04:55, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Because i) warnings are futile (see the part about not passing if you have less than X edits? never seems to work) and ii) the problem is slowly being fixed, and noting it like that would serve as an invitation for such behaviour, while this is a fix for the past. Daniel (talk) 04:59, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It sounds like a good idea to me. I say do it. SQL <sup style="font-size: 5pt;color:#999">Query me!  04:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I say just NOINDEX the RfA at the user's request. &mdash; Mizu onna sango15 Hello! 04:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I concur with Avraham and Daniel. 1) No casual reader or job employer needs to stumble across something metapedian like an RfA; 2) It can be a real privacy issue; 3) Humans are more important than finding some archived discussion in the bowels of the project-space. That being said, we probably should ask the sysadmins to no-index all RfAs by means of robots.txt if this proposal should pass. —<b style="color:#002BB8">Animum</b> (talk) 17:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, I did not get the request correctly here. Why just RFA? =Nichalp   «Talk»=  08:31, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed - is there any reason for any non-content pages to be indexable by search engines? George The Dragon (talk) 08:38, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * There's been a discussion at the mailing list a few times. You might want to try taking it to WP:VPP.  Here isn't the place for it.  Cheers.  <i style="color:green;">lifebaka</i>++ 11:19, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Ryan P, and we should apply it to RfA. I disagree with using it for all non-content pages, as it's sometimes extremely useful to be able to search all kinds of project pages for (eg) user interaction. Besides, discussing the broader issue is inappropriate here. Let's decide whether we want the specific instance of RfA pages excluded. If there's consensus, take the broader issue elsewhere (probably VP) leaving a link here. If there's not, I doubt there'd be consensus on the broader issue anyway, but it still might be worth posting at VP. --Dweller (talk) 11:25, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. All non-content pages, and just as soon as we can get a better internal search engine. — CharlotteWebb 14:53, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I like the idea of using the template, it will get all RFAs post-2006. But the pre-2005/6 RFAs didn't use this template, would it be a good idea to use a bot/AWB here?  MBisanz  talk 14:55, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thinking more on this, could we create a secondary template RFA NOINDEX so we could control the RFA-space with 1 template, even if we need to add it to some pages on its own?  MBisanz  talk 15:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * If there truly is a consensus and a need to do this, why not take up Icewedge's suggestion above? If the devs need to do it, then a bugzilla can be submitted. – xeno  ( talk ) 15:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I also agree with the placement. RfA is a strictly internal process to the project and I can think of no good reason why it needs to be indexed by external search engines. It may be obvious, but I see no reason to discourage people from using their real names if they are making an informed decision by having been warned about the potential consequences.  Jim Miller  See me 15:01, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * People should really not need to be warned that using their real name on the Internet could lead to unintended consequences. – xeno  ( talk ) 14:59, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I concur that we should add noindex. We should err on the side of protecting people. While google-searching wiki is useful, its usefulness is not sufficient enough to allow the potential side effects of having people's livelihood, privacy, or peace of mind adversely effected. -- Avi (talk) 15:10, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Well said, Avraham. &mdash; Mizu onna sango15 Hello!  15:16, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

As an aside, I do wonder how many "outed" admins had their identities tracked down specifically because of their RfA. That would be the true determination of how helpful this would be. EVula // talk // &#9775;  // 16:21, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * While I agree with the sentiment, I don't see how this is really that effective. Someone's real name can be exposed anywhere, not just an RfA; mine is certainly floating around, but it didn't even get mentioned in my RfA (or, for that matter, subsequent RfBs). This strikes me as a problem looking for a solution solution looking for a problem; the problem, however, is so seeped in emotion that everyone is jumping to agree with it. I just don't see how it's applicable; if an RfA candidate doesn't want their real name used in their RfA, then gee, perhaps they shouldn't mention it...
 * I get your point, but I'm a little perplexed by your edit summary. I fail to see how taking precautions (and with very few drawbacks) to prevent harm to one's indentity is paranoid. &mdash; Mizu onna sango15 Hello!  16:42, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I consider several on-wiki things, such as fear of being exposed and WP:FEED, to be grounded in paranoia. Is the threat of real-life exposure real? Yes. Is it a threat that can affect our administrators? Yes. Is it something that is habitually happening in the RfA realm? No. Seeing problems in areas where there aren't any isn't particularly helpful, and I would consider it paranoia. EVula // talk // &#9775;  // 17:06, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I see. You might have a point there. &mdash; Mizu onna sango15 Hello!  17:15, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * EVula, did you happen to mean "a solution looking for a problem"? I'm going to assume you did, as that would make your argument much more clear. Useight (talk) 16:50, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Er, yeah. Sorry, I wrote that just as I was heading out the door for work; fixed. :) EVula // talk // &#9775;  // 17:06, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * EVula, I believe the absolute number of individuals "outed due to RfA" is irrelevant; one is too many. This is a proactive measure whose benefit outweighs its cost. What do we lose? The ability to google RfA's to find a particular statement or statements? Where would that be more valuable than even the small chance of hurting someone, their career, their privacy, their family, or their good name? -- Avi (talk) 17:26, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * If they used their real name as their Wikipedia username, then didn't they out themselves? Those who have used their real name are (or should be) well-aware of the potential consequences. The Internet is no private affair. – xeno  ( talk ) 17:29, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Xeno, so they have made an error; why should we be involved in compounding it for little expected return? -- Avi (talk) 17:50, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * So manually noindex any RFA for real-name'ish users. – xeno  ( talk ) 17:55, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * When talking about limiting a function that lots of people can take advantage of, I'd say that the actual benefit of a course of action is very relevant. Your statement just makes me feel that much better about saying that this entire matter is seeped in emotion. I don't want anyone's life ruined either (well... maybe a couple), but I'm also unconvinced that removing RfAs from Google's index will protect our identities. EVula // talk // &#9775;  // 17:58, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Ladies, Gents you are utterly missing the fundamental point, which is that Google and Wikipedia are not actually related. If Google want to index us they can - tags or no tags. Google's bots ignore no_follow tags because Google (as a public company designed to make profit) choose to at the moment. If they decide otherwise then we can't control it (well we can, but not through measures in line with our goal). End of discussion. We don't control thrid parties. Simple. Gee...... let's archive this. Pedro : Chat   Is grieving  19:59, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Section break
My question fails to be answered. What makes the RFA pages so special for noninclusion? =Nichalp  «Talk»=  17:31, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm reading it as a problem for accounts using a living person's real name, as an RFA on those accounts might include what amounts to specific criticism of a living person, which could be problematic for that living person. If my name is Bill Formattest, and my rfa included criticisms of my editing on the pedophilia article, for example, a potential employer might dig that up on a google search for my real name - which would cause harm to me (and, incidentally, might have a chilling effect on the editing of controversial subjects). I'm unclear as to why courtesy blanking would be insufficient for this purpose, though. UltraExactZZ Claims~ Evidence 18:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd reverse Nichalp's question. What makes them so special for inclusion? WP is only indexed so heavily by Google because of reasons outside of WP's control (perception of WP relevance to a search engine query). Internal workings are not relevant to our audience (the readership). Google, as a third party, can index or not index as they prefer. Assuming that WP editors are of the opinion we'd prefer they don't index our internal workings then we include the tags. Given that our internal debates are nothing to do with our audience (again, the readership) then we may as well "request" Google not to index. Zero benefit to the actual goal of Wikipedia (writing an encyclopedia) is served by Google indexing non ENC pages. If we can prevent it then that's good. If we can't then so what. Pedro : Chat   Is grieving  19:50, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I must respectfully disagree, Pedro. As we all know, the Wikipedia search engine is currently abysmal. Items of trivial interest appear on Wikipedia's search page, but a search at site:en.wikipedia.org at Google yields superior results. It would certainly be of relevance to us, the people serving to build an encyclopedia. Furthermore, I fail to see what a nonindex can do that a courtesy blank can't. A scenario like Ultraexactzz's Bill Formattest is certainly plausible, but a nonindex still renders the scandalous RFA fully visible and open to exploitation. I also disagree with your statement that our internal workings are not relevant to our audience. Whether it be an FA star or a Wikiproject template, our inner workings, debates, and decisions are ultimately linked to the encyclopedia. Our readership has a right to know what happens "behind the scenes," because it will almost always affect what goes on the encyclopedia and what does not.  bibliomaniac 1  5  20:14, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Bibliomaniac15 - please see my above (in the main thread). The fundamental point is that we do not control Google. They index what they want, and no_index tags are at their discretion not ours as to having any value. This thread is irrelevant as we cannot dictate what a commerical company does. Their current policy can change and I doubt very much that ours will change as rapidly as theirs, and indeed our policy is totally irrelevant to what Google wish to do unless we bury the whole site. Pedro : Chat   Is grieving  20:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Further - regarding Our readership has a right to know.. - Yes you're right. However they key thing is, of course, that they don't actaully care. They want WP to be a resource. I couldn't give a damn if my dictionary is printed on recycled paper, made in China and bound in Taiwan. Nor do I care about the name of the editor who wrote the definition of the word "Cheese". I just want it spelt right. Pedro : Chat   Is grieving  20:27, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Very well said! Agreed. Most readers don't care, they are using Wikipedia as a point of reference.Lazulilasher (talk) 02:10, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I thought I was the paranoid one. To me, No Indexing all RfA's is impractical and a solution for a problem that, frankly, isn't big enough to deserve something of this scale. How many RfA's come through, per month, that reveal personal information/hold intense negative commentary about an editor to the point where a no-index is needed? Barely any. Come on, man. If an RfA gets out of hand, noindex it. Why do it widespread?-- Koji Dude  (C) 01:22, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * To answer your question, Koji (who, like me, chooses to hide their real identiy), the answer is one.) AS in one user. There is no negative to adding NOINDEX, but there is the potential positive for adding NOINDEX to rfa.  The fact that a situation hasn't happened yet (even if it has, I could dig backwards if requested) doesn't mean we shouldn't be proactive. If it protects even one, then it is worth it.  Support this, mostly per Pedro's sound logic.   Keeper    76  01:25, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * For once, Keeper is absolutely right. Like it or not, we do attract nutjobs – as some of you will be aware, at least one person has gone to jail for stalking someone they took a dislike to on-wiki – and if doing this does no harm and potentially stops a single stalker, I can't see what the fuss is. – iride  scent
 * Damn you, Keeper, and your clever convincing-ness. I cave.-- Koji Dude  (C) 01:32, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * As regards the "it will involve work" bit, that's the least of the problems; it wouldn't even take coding, just a matter of minutes to knock up an AWB bot to do them in one go. – iride  scent  01:38, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Hey! Whaddya mean "for once" Iridescent???? Give me a diff where I ain't right!!! (oh god, please don't reply to this....  The diffs where I'm completely inept, if not just insanely wrong, far outweigh my momentary lapse into genius... Keeper    76  01:44, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The negative is that you are reducing the usefulness of google. Prodego  <sup style="color:darkgreen;">talk  01:42, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not, and should not, be concerned about the "usefulness" of google. Keeper    76  01:44, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I am not worried about google's usefulness, I am worried about my ability to search for things on wikipedia with google. <tt>site:en.wikipedia</tt> style. Prodego  <sup style="color:darkgreen;">talk  03:14, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * With all the ways Succesful and Unsuccesful RfA's are organized here on Wikipedia, it'd be pretty easy to find a particular RfA if you wanted to. I think common sense would say to use Wikipedia as a primary reference point when looking for an RfA.-- Koji Dude  (C) 01:48, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm trying to figure out why only the RFA pages is a problem. The comments above are only talking about google, but aren't there several other sites that archive wikipedia on the regular basis? I tried to search for my id on google, and interestingly enough, a search result threw an old user page (four year old page, one of my earliest) of mine on it. While Google might religiously follow robots.txt, there is no compulsion for other sites that mirror wikipedia to do so. So, its not just the RFA pages that might be caught up, but also user/user talk, wikipedia, and portal namespaces that are archived. The second point I wish to mention is that to request for adminship, a person must have a minimum 3-6 months experience (that is the unofficial limit at present). I'm sure by that time he/she would be aware of the issues that might occur by using their real name on wikipedia. If privacy concerns are still an issue, try WP:CHU; we do not deny those requests. =Nichalp  «Talk»=  07:28, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't see why we should do this, except in special cases. Wikipedia's internal workings are not secret. I use Google to search Wikipedia all the time, including internal pages. --Apoc2400 (talk) 11:53, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't have any major objection to this, really. My search method for RFAs is usually to type in "Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Username" or Special:PrefixIndex the user's name, so google doesn't bother me much. I'm under the impression, however, that we courtesy blank things very specifically to prevent search engines from snagging some of the more heated drama on the site, and I am unclear how this method would be different from that. HEY, could we add this code to the courtesy blanking template and take care of everything at once? UltraExactZZ Claims~ Evidence 12:10, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it's worth pointing out that practically no change can come to this project because any proactive proposal for anything will be rejected as "no consensus" over trivial things. The proposal is about RFA pages. Why not other pages? Who cares. The proposal is about RFA pages, and maybe other pages can be discussed later, and elsewhere. If you want to search for someone's RFA, it's an extremely easy page to find. If you need google to find an RFA, there are bigger issues you need to be dealing with. This proposal is a good one because people do use their real names. Sometimes in their user names, other times it is just mentioned in the process. Then consider the monumental stupidity some people show in RFAs with their baseless accusations, character attacks and other such related hate spewage. There is no reason whatsoever that these pages should be indexed by google. If you can't find the page without google, like I said above, you have bigger issues. And as far as other engines indexing it: one problem at a time. Jennavecia (Talk)  15:26, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think the point is that people need Google to find a specific RFA. People may want to use Google to search for content in an-RFA-of-which-they-don't-know-the-name. Probably due to the abysmal internal search engine employed here. – xeno  ( talk ) 15:31, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * If you have a fragment of a name, a text search (CTRL-F on most browsers) on the Successful and Unsuccessful RFA lists would work well. As these are sorted by date, finding that one RFA 3 months ago would be simple as well. For an RFA where someone made a really good argument, I'd recommend checking their contributions in the Wikipedia space, also with text search. Not saying google isn't superior to these, but they are alternatives that would work with this function enabled. UltraExactZZ Claims~ Evidence 18:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Second section break
I just can't believe that this simple topic and simple request has two section breaks. Good grief. Keeper   76  18:18, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Hello, Keeper76, and welcome to WT:RFA! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. – iride  scent  18:21, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * heh. :-)_  (that little line below my symbolic mouth is me very much wishing I had a cigarette right now...)  Keeper    76  18:25, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I have been considering adding a question for RfAs, particularly for those who don't use identifiable names, along the lines of: Admins sometimes become the subjects of off-wiki harassment - are you willing to have your identity revealed and discussed? Folks that are signing up for adminship need to have reasonably thick skins. Having the contents of their RfA appear in Google is nothing compared to what they may face if their RfA succeeds. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 18:38, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Having "reasonably thick skins" is fine. What does that have to do with having "reasonable privacy expectations?" If I signed up with my real name, that's my own fault really, but that doesn't mean we just say "too bad for you, you're an admin now, and should have thicker skin."   Keeper    76  18:59, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, I've seen almost that exact phrase written on ANI in response to complaints abot off-wiki harassment. Rather than offering admins-to-be a scant shred of covering to protect their privacy, we should do more to warn them that they are signing up for potential harassment and that "noindex" can't be counted on to protect them. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 19:12, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * If there's any present admins who are adminning under their real name they can go ahead and tag their RFA with noindex if they so please. In fact, if anyone can recall someone who's stood for RFA under their real name, and contentious issues have been raised, tag away. I still don't understand why we should take away someone's ability to effectively search Wikipedia (yes, even the meta parts) because of some hypothetical problem. – xeno  ( talk ) 19:03, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Third section break
Um, RFA's have been blocked from search engines since September 2007, as it said in the Signpost. This Google search demonstrates that quite nicely. Graham 87 04:17, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow. Now this is what I call inefficiency! - Icewedge (talk) 04:29, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes. I just tried to search for an RfA, only for my search to end fruitlessly. A whole thread with three section breaks all for this. Wow. &mdash; Mizu onna sango15 Hello!  04:32, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Had this been channeled into article writing we could have like 5 DYK's or something..... - Icewedge (talk) 04:34, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Just as penance for this I am going to go write a DYK right now, I suggest 4 other people go do the same ;) - Icewedge (talk) 04:35, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Hah. I'm going to go and get my GA promoted to FA now. &mdash; Mizu onna sango15 Hello!  04:37, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, lol. Well, this is just the way we roll here. --Apoc2400 (talk) 07:16, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Pure class.... :) Pedro : Chat  07:19, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Requests for adminship/MyNameIsKyle
MyNameIsKyle has made a haphazard attempt to draw up an RfA. I would fix it for him, but is there any point? You'll see what I mean by looking at the way he manages his talkpage, his blocklog compared to the amount of time he's been here and his edits in general. <span style="font-family:Miriam,sans-serif"> Lra drama  16:49, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I believe the candidate wished to withdraw. <i style="color:green;">lifebaka</i>++ 17:04, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, that was my impression as well, that is why I did so for him.  So Why  review me! 17:09, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, good work. :) <span style="font-family:Miriam,sans-serif"> Lra drama  17:12, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Hope that was okay for you all, usually admins do it but I wanted to prevent as much opposes as possible and so wanted to close it as fast as possible. It's no use if a new user gets to read 50 opposes before it's withdrawn/closed. :-)  So Why  review me! 17:15, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Any user can SNOW-close an RfA, but be careful! Always good to ask the candidate first if they wish to withdraw.  Enigma  message 17:21, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It would definately have ended up with a stream of opposes, so yes, you did the right thing. <span style="font-family:Miriam,sans-serif"> Lra drama  17:22, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

RFA reform
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This is my RFA reform proposal: See an example here. All counting displayed on the page is automated. Any comments are appreciated.--Natl1 (Talk Page) (Contribs) 22:54, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Issue-based voting
 * A user puts up an issue for discussing about a candidate
 * The issues relevance to promotion are commented/voted on on a scale from -10 to 10
 * Issues are both positive (Commitment to the project, etc.) and negative.
 * Votes in a topic are automatically counted
 * The closing bureaucrat averages the issue votes and promotes if average is 5 (75%) or higher.


 * How's that going to work? Do you weight every issue equally, in which case to you really think "Self nomination" is of equal importance to "Will they block editors they're in a content dispute with?", or will the "issues" be weighted, in which case who decides the weighting? Don't see how it could work fairly. I appreciate you have a "relevance" checkbox, but the temptation is always going to be there to max out your own opinions. – iride  scent  23:05, 13 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The reverence checkbox is a mathematical average of how important other users rated it. This is then averaged with other issues to determine the final result. Usually the self-nom issue would be rated -1 and other issues would be rated much lower (-5 to -10) and when averaged together the -1 self-nom would be weighted much less than stronger issues.--Natl1 (Talk Page) (Contribs) 23:39, 13 August 2008 (UTC)


 * See WP:PEREN — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 23:07, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It is (and most people think so, actually). The problem is identifying where. Sceptre (talk) 23:46, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Where is easy. Everywhere. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 23:55, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * What do we do then? Dump the whole thing and start giving the buttons out like candy? There's no other solution. It may be broken, but it's all we have. &mdash; Mizu onna sango15 Hello!  00:21, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * There are many other solutions, but no will to explore any of them. The choices are not ritualised humiliation vs. handing the buttons out like candy. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:32, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Fundamentally though I think that the biggest impediment to any improved process is the understandable resistance of the turkeys to vote for thanksgiving. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:37, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I see. Still, RfA review isn't over yet, so let's just be patient and wait until that fails to start proposing how to change it. &mdash; Mizu onna sango15 Hello!  00:36, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Good to see you taking such a positive line here. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:41, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I think there is no will to explore as the discontent is not wide enough. I actually don't think it is too bad. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:45, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

To the degree there is something "wrong" with RfA, I believe it could be easily fixed by simply requiring admins to recertify periodically, say annually, and by de-sysopping those who do not participate for a period of time (say, 12 months). Pretty simple "solution" to the "problem". Surely I am not the first to suggest this. Frank |  talk  00:47, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * How would desysoping inactive admins affect the problems associated with RfA?  Wisdom89  ( T |undefined /  C ) 00:55, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It really wouldn't, IMO. I don't think inactive admins should be desysopped, either. Life happens. &mdash; Mizu onna sango15 Hello!  01:16, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I object!
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&mdash; Mizu onna sango15 Hello! 02:57, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I object to a turkey unilaterally deciding that Thanksgiving is a bad thing, by closing the above thread. WP:PEREN is an argument presented by turkeys to avoid having to address the deep discontent surrounding the RfA process. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 01:45, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * then be bold and un-archive it.--- Balloonman  PoppaBalloon 01:49, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I love Thanksgiving. Anyway, it's a perenial proposal, the answer is in that link, and the debate won't lead to anything. Steps are being taken to deal with RfA already, so the above thread is pointless. Any possible discussion there is just going to be fruitless, get fifty thousand section breaks, then get archived later.-- Koji Dude  (C) 01:58, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * If I cared enough I might. But what's the point in arguing with turkeys? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 02:06, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * While it is a perrenial proposal to say that RfA is broken, it is at least a new idea and a chance to fix RfA. I agree with Malleus in saying that the above thread should be continued (thoug I don't believe anyone is a turkey).  Malinaccier (talk) 02:08, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I just don't get the analogy. KojiDude's not an admin.  Darkspots (talk) 02:15, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps he'd like to be? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 02:25, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * No. See his userpage. &mdash; Mizu onna sango15 Hello!  02:32, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * One more of us who has no interest in going through what someone recently called the "ritualised humiliation" of RfA, perhaps. Darkspots (talk) 02:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm. I presume you won't be running again then, Mal? &mdash; Mizu onna sango15 Hello!  02:37, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * No. See his user page. :) Darkspots (talk) 02:41, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Ha. Whoops, my mistake there. &mdash; Mizu onna sango15 Hello!  02:45, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Couldn't pass up the chance to do that, sorry Lucille. It's a shame, really, Malleus and Koji would both be good admins. WP:NBD. Someone boldly archive this thread before I start deciding Thanksgiving is a bad thing too. Darkspots (talk) 02:52, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

We need to get more people to !vote in RFAs
I've seen some RFAs that get about 70-80 votes and then suddenly, there are no more votes. And it's a shame because just like MRkIA's RFA(sorry if I spelled his name wrong), if he could get more voters, he might suceed. But most editors are not active in RFAs. Which is a reason there are many fails(partly). How do we get more people to start !voting? Gears of War  2 03:28, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * MrKIA11's RfA has been at almost exactly the same percentage ever since it started. There's no reason to think more votes would all be supports; we'd likely just have more votes split along the same rough proportion.  People who are interested in RfA participate; people who aren't interested don't, and shouldn't. --barneca (talk) 03:33, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Again, my inexperience kicking in. Gears of War  2 03:35, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't beat yourself up, GoW. It's great enought that you care about the process insofar that you started this thread to improve it. &mdash; Mizu onna sango15 Hello!  03:38, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks and cheers. Gears of War  2 03:40, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Nevertheless, Gears hit on an interesting point. Basically it's the same group (the RfA cabal, aka "regulars") who contribute to the discussion. I can't think of a quick fix to getting the word out. I've always thought it a good idea to place the RfA template on one's userpage while running, but beyond that you run the risk of borderline canvassing accusations.  Wisdom89  ( T |undefined /  C ) 03:41, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * And even when you add the template to a userpage, you run the risk of attracting some undesired (i.e., trolls, etc.) people to the user's RfA. —<b style="color:#002BB8">Animum</b> (talk) 17:55, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * In a way, thats what I was trying to say. The regulars like iredecent and Useight(more mis-spelled names)etc. are always !voting and others dont vote at all. Gears of War  2 03:45, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Us "regulars" are regulars because we're interested in it. I don't think there's much you can do about this. I don't even think doing something about it would be a good idea; aren't we always bitching about "drive-by" RfA votes? People who support/oppose based on two minutes of looking at the other !votes? I think for someone to really vet a candidate, they inherently have to be interested in the process. Soliciting more votes is always a double-edged sword, even in politics... there was a proposition here in Arizona a year or two back that would have created a "lottery" for voters, meaning that one voter at random would win $1M. The proposition died a horrible death; no one wanted people voting just for the hell of it. I know this is an imperfect analogy, but is it better to have 70 votes that are thought-out and meaningful, or 150 diluted ones? Tan      39  03:52, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

(Undent) Numbers only succeed in increasing the pile-on or fuelling the snow storm. ~ Ame I iorate U T C @ 03:56, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Good points, Tan, but getting more people interested in the process doesn't necessarily translate into perfunctory thoughtless drive-by voting. That's more an issue with XfDs than here. Then again, the reason we see the same names over and over again is because we're (they are?) heavily interested in evaluating potential candidates. Personally, I feel we could always use more administrators, and it's important to give everyone a fair analysis/vote. Double-edged sword is a good description.  Wisdom89  ( T |undefined /  C ) 03:57, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Trust me, the last thing you want to do is ask people to vote... ;-) But seriously, I'm a fan of the proposals of an "RfA jury" that have come up in the past. We need less voters, not more. —Giggy 04:04, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Why is that? Gears of War  2 04:10, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Why should you not ask people to vote? Click the link; it's fairly self evident.
 * Why do we need less voters, not more? Click the link; it's fairly self evident. —Giggy 04:12, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * What matters is not that a process be democratic, but that it be effective, that it give the sysop bit to the right editors. Plenty of RfA regulars only jump in if they feel like it or feel they need to. Giggy's link shows what happens when everybody and their cousin feels like they need to jump in.  I would be the last person to remember who first phrased it this way, but it's been said that RfA is the worst process we could come up with, except for all the others.  Darkspots (talk) 04:17, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, hopefully Gazimoff will help improve that via RREV, then... &mdash; Mizu onna sango15 Hello!  04:33, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) If the number of people weighing in doubled, for instance, we'd likely see pile-ons in either the support or oppose column. Sometimes editors who jump in when there are already 100 votes in can add substantial content to the discussion, even changing the swing of the RFA, but usually after a lot of people have weighed in, the votes become "Per above" or "Per everybody". Doesn't really add a lot to the discussion nor does it (usually) change whether the RFA will be successful or not. These pile-ons usually occur when the RFA is at 97% anyway. If people were bringing more meat to the table at this point, then going from 80 to 160 people would be great, but usually most all of what must be said has already been said by that point. Plus, yes, RFA is full of the "regulars", the people who are interested enough to stick around on a consistent basis, but there is a problem when trying to get more people interested: canvassing. If everyone knew about the RFA, that'd be great, but the problem with telling people is that you ("you" as in "anybody") can't tell everyone, so it leads to "selective canvassing", or at least the potential and/or appearance of selective canvassing, in which voters may accuse the candidate of telling people that he/she thought would most likely support the RFA. Okay, that was a mouthful. Useight (talk) 04:36, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

You'll notice that I rarely participate in RfA's after 20-30 edits have been cast. By the time 20-30 edits have been cast, 90-95% of RfA's are already determined. I try to be one of the first 10-15 to either support or oppose a candidate. Getting more people to !vote isn't the key, getting people to actually do their homework first is. I see very few people who actually get beyond the RfA page before making up their mind. Therein lies the problem with RfA. I'd rather see 10 people who investigated a candidate make the decision than have 1000 sheep !voting with the crowd based upon surface impressions..--- Balloonman  PoppaBalloon 08:35, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I've seen you make this statement before and, just out of curiosity, would like to know how you determine that "very few people get beyond the RFA page before making up their mind". When I choose to participate, I'm either already very familiar with a candidate or I do actually vet their contributions quite thoroughly. But this doesn't necessarily show in my supporting comment, and I'm assuming the same goes for other RFA participants as well. How can you tell how profoundly we checked the candidate's contributions? ---Sluzzelin talk  03:49, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * (ec)Objectively/scientifically, I can't prove it... but there are quite a few people who state things to the effect that they are basing their vote (solely) upon the way the questions were answered, or upon the support of a respected user... there are also enough people who !vote on enough RfA's that I am reasonably convinced that they don't do their own homework. I spend a fair amount of time vetting candidates before !voting. I KNOW that most people don't spend half the time I do (unless, it's a weak support)  I've spent as much as 6 hours reviewing a single candidate before! There are some editors who, I am convinced look at others and go, "Wow, if XXX is supporting, then I guess I can support"  Heck, I've seen it in reference to myself.  Just about two weeks ago, I gave somebody a "weak support" with the explanation, "per my guidelines on how I !vote ... but have an overall favorable impression of him from my few interactions with him."  Now, if you looked at my guidelines, you would realize that when I give a weak support, it is because I didn't properly vet the candidate, but see nothing upon a cursory review to oppose.  A few days later, somebody wrote, "I was leaning towards a neutral vote but the support of User:Balloonman ... tipped me."  I've seen enough of these "per so and so !votes" that I've grown convinced that there are certain people whose !voting carries a disproportionate amount of weight.  To be honest, there are some people who I look at and go, "Well, if that person has XXX's support, then they have to be a decent candidate."  I may not always agree with say Keeper76, Rudget, or Wisdom89, but if they give their support, their support does mean something in my book.  There are others who I consider to be the "Anti-Kurt."  I know it sounds rude, but there are some people whose support is almost as predictable as an oppose from Kurt---people just remember and chime in on Kurt's opposes and don't notice the supports without reason.  Kurt is not alone in his predictability---but he is the most persecuted.  So, just as I know that Kurt doesn't dig into the histories of 95% of the candidates he opposes, I know that there are some who support like robots.  This is why I would rather see a few people who dig into candidates histories than mass hysteria.
 * There is also the issue of voting trends. I've said this before.  A candidate runs for RfA.  Somebody comes along early on and opposes with a sound reason.  Soon everybody and their brother and sister has followed along.  Same candidate, same oppose, but rather than the oppose coming along early on, the opposer doesn't !vote until there are 20 supports.  The same oppose that in a different circumstance would have killed the RfA now has no bearing.  This tells me that people aren't !voting upon the merits of the candidate, but rather upon the trends/how others !vote.
 * This is why I don't get involved with RfA's that have 20+ supports and a few opposes... I don't see the value in spending my time when even if I come up with a significant reason, the odds are that it won't matter. Very few RfA's fail after a strong start.  Likewise, few RfA's survive after a bad start.--- Balloonman  PoppaBalloon 04:28, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't agree that later supports or opposes in an RfA discussion are generally pile-up votes. That's belittling to anyone who's happened to arrive late at an RfA and, looking at MrKIA11's nomination, not supported by evidence. The way I see it there may be a handful of compelling reasons to support and a handful to oppose a candidate, and these tend to come out early on. After that, there's not much new material you can present. Of course it's always possible that someone might, late in the piece, discover a new reason to oppose or support, but I can't see that happening too often. I think it's safe to assume that the candidate's history has been thoroughly picked over early on and there's little new material to be mentioned after that. That's why later comments tend to be briefer and sound like "Support per diffs provided by Randomdude", or "Oppose per JBloggs". These are not necessarily pile-ons- it's just as likely that these later voters have carefully weighed up the pros and cons provided previously and decided some arguments are more compelling than others. Judging the evidence is as important as digging it up in the first place. Reyk  <sub style="color:blue;">YO!  22:58, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I've not called them pile on... but I will state that by the time 40 !votes are in, the course of 95% of all RfA's are set. There are a few notable exceptions (H20's last one and Van Tucky's first come to mind.)  But very rarely do you see even the strongest of evidence turning cases after 30-40 !votes, but not only that, many people will not oppose a candidate who appears to be on the way towards passing.  In H20's last RfA, despite his qualifications for adminship, there were plenty of reason to oppose his nomination.  It wasn't until a stupid action of one of his nominators (me) that those opposer's came forth with those reasons.  I don't waste my time after the fate appears to be set, and I've talked to others who echo my sentiment, once a candidate has 20-30 supports and no more than 10-15% oppose, people who might otherwise oppose, won't do so.  As one of the best known WP editors told me, "Why make enemies?"  It is also a fact, that an early oppose will have a much stronger impact than the same oppose later on.--- Balloonman  PoppaBalloon 02:50, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "once a candidate has 20-30 supports and no more than 10-15% oppose, people who might otherwise oppose, won't do so." Stating that as fact without a lick of evidence doesn't help your argument much.-- Koji Dude  (C) 03:44, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I can't give you the names of people who have echoed that sentiment--- as it might betray their trust. But,the lick of evidence is H20's RfA and a year of watching the RfA process.  And the fact that you can't argue that an early oppose has a disproportionate ability to bias an RfA than a later one.  If you wish to believe that the RfA process works, that is your prerogative.--- Balloonman  PoppaBalloon 05:36, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Koji, you might want to read some of the opposes/neutrals in the RfA's currently in place. There are people who are making comments to the effect that they hate to oppose (EG they support all the time) or that they are voting neutral instead of oppose because there are so many supports and their impression must be wrong/incomplete.--- Balloonman  PoppaBalloon 14:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I was just about to ask the same thing, Sluzzelin. Pray tell how you know, Balloonman? I thoroughly review the user contributions, user page, talk page, and other important factors before voting, and I'd say most of us 'regulars' take just as much time to study the candidate as you claim to. In fact, that's really the only way to ensure you know whether or not they're trustworthy. &mdash; Mizu onna sango15 Hello!  04:03, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * By the way, Peripitus' RfA has expired. Crats, hurry up and close it! :P (Not to say it has a time limit, but it is over) &mdash; Mizu onna sango15 Hello!  04:14, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Obviously there are a few that do their homework, but I'll go out on a limb and say that 90% of the people voting don't put in close to the amount of work Balloonman does with each of his votes.  Enigma  message 05:03, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * While I'll freely admit that I've probably never spent 6 hours going through one candidates contributions, there is a wide range of possible efforts between that extreme and not going beyond the RFA page. I guess I was confused by the words "very few" in Balloonman's statement. Anyway, thank you for your explanation, Balloonman. ---Sluzzelin talk  06:07, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, thanks Balloonman, it's a lot clearer now. My apologies for the misunderstanding. &mdash; Mizu onna sango15 Hello!  06:38, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm just honored to be mentioned by Balloonman.  Wisdom89  ( T |undefined /  C ) 06:55, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol. You three are regarded as being very respected and eminent users, and many editors agree with you and base their votes on what you say, so he's right to include you. &mdash; Mizu onna sango15 Hello!  07:00, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You just want a plate of cookies don't you? : )  Wisdom89  ( T |undefined /  C ) 07:11, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I probably wrote "Very few" in one of my cynical moments... I've lost a lot of respect for this process as a result of the sheep mentality.--- Balloonman  PoppaBalloon 08:17, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Considering the sheep mentality is pervasive among even the RfA regulars, I'd welcome new voices. I'm tired of seeing people opposed for shit reasons like they like video games. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk  ) 12:14, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That actually gets kudos in my books ;-) Actually, I personally like niche candidates.  While I prefer some diversity in their breadth of editing (it shows that they've been exposed to thoughts outside of a single silo) I don't mind people who are interested in what others might consider fanboy type areas (WWE, comics, video games, etc.)  BUT they have to show expertise elsewhere.--- Balloonman  PoppaBalloon 15:14, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Ignoring the fact that this entire conversation throws WP:AGF out the window for anyone that gets late to an RfA, who in the hell cares if people make base-less Support/Oppose's? The closing Beurucrat (jesus christ, someone teach me how to spell) gauges the weight of the votes. And, just because someone is saying "Per JimDave" or "Per EricBob" doesn't mean their vote is automatically-100%-thoughtless. Reasons for Support/Oppose can get repeptitive, so "per SteveJohn" is sometimes just people's way of sparing you some monotony.-- Koji Dude  (C) 20:25, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It would be ignoring AGF if I accused a specific person of not doing their homework. But it doesn't take rocket scientist to recognize the fact that some people do not dig into candidates before supporting.  You can make those kind of generalized statements without ever looking at an RfA.  Heck, I think it is safe to say about a lot of things---all the way up to presidential elections!  And no, it doesn't say anything different about people who vote late as compared to early.--- Balloonman  PoppaBalloon 20:51, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * (ec) Oh, please. When have you ever seen a closing bureaucrat promote, or deny promotion, in the face of the popular vote, except in reconfirmation RfAs? Never? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 20:56, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You mean how many RfA's fail that are above 50%? Quite a few (especially in the 60-70 range).-- Koji Dude  (C) 21:15, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I read Malleus's question as "how many are promoted below 75%". These dubious exercises are the only ones I can think of in recent times. – iride  scent  21:22, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That's exactly what I meant. Please don't try taking the piss KojiDude. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 21:25, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * ...? I don't even know what "the piss" means. :-/ Anyway, in America "popular vote" = "majority vote", and "majoriity vote" = 51% or higher. At least, that's what I learned in school.-- Koji  Dude  (C) 21:30, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, "popular vote" = "vote of the common citizens". Compare/contrast with "electoral vote". Al Gore won the former in 2000, lost the latter. Was this a public school that taught you otherwise? ; ) --Badger Drink (talk) 05:14, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Taking the piss  Enigma  message 21:32, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah. That's a new one for me. Sorry MF, lost in trnaslation.-- Koji Dude  (C) 21:36, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * In that context it basically means "don't be facetious" – xeno  ( talk ) 22:07, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * 51% is a majority, but there are many things that require more than a simple majority. The general rule of thumb is that for every oppose it takes 3-4 supports to counter the oppose... EG 70-80% is supposedly the murky territority where 'crat descretion comes into play.  I am still trying to talk our newest 'crat (Rlevse) into showing his independence and failing somebody with 98% support!  Come on Rlevse, you can do it!--- Balloonman  PoppaBalloon 22:57, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I hope you are not being serious. Crat discretion can only go so far, when it flagrantly rebels against a clear consensus that the community has taken, we have a rogue on our hands.  bibliomaniac 1  5  05:39, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I can't believe you are even asking that... of course I was being sarcastic!--- Balloonman  PoppaBalloon 05:47, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I expected as much from you. Other times, I've not been so sure whether people were being serious or if they were being sarcastic. I need to get me one of these (see winner).  bibliomaniac 1  5  16:40, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a democracy... but RfA isn't a discussion. Otherwise, it wouldn't need a talk page so that we have a place to dump all the discussion. Hiberniantears (talk) 21:37, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * There's one thing that saddens me out of all of these. The fact that you have some people, like Balloonman, Wisdom, Keeper and others who thoroughly research a candidate and present their opinions with backing. I thought, after starting to process the RREV information "hang on, why don't we just have a question/debate phase where we can discuss the pros and cons AfD style, then have a vote phase where everyone can decide how they feel in a simple and clean support/oppose based on the outcome of the debates". That way, i thought in my nievity, we could isolate all the arguments to one end and avoid the badgering, questioning etc. After having experienced the process firsthand, I'm not so sure that's a good idea any more  Gazi moff  22:03, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I've come to the regretful conclusion that RFA is not fixable, and that it's also not totally broken. I guess it's like a chipped mug. It still holds the tea and you can still drink from it, but you wouldn't like your mother to see you using it. Pedro : Chat  22:18, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Balloonguy said "It wasn't until a stupid action of one of his nominators (me) ". I think you typed "stupid" when you meant to type "honest." If honesty is stupid, then there's no hope for Wikipedia, no hope for the human race, no hope for anything. ;-)Ling.Nut (WP:3IAR) 04:10, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't want to rehash the case, but let's just agree that it took something extremely unusual and unexpected, and that that particular RfA was different from all others. My point, however, is that I do believe that there were people who wanted to oppose, but chose not to because they didn't see that their oppose would matter, until something unique occurred.  This is, IMHO, an indicator of one of the problems with RfA's.--- Balloonman  PoppaBalloon 05:47, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the general tone of the OP, which is more contributors is good. I also agree with Baloonman that the additional scrutiny of more contributors doesn't necessarily mean a more accurate result. I also agree that bringing more people here is difficult and we don't want people doing so on a whimsy or by compunction and perhaps making flighty ill-thought-through !votes. All in all, Pedro seems to sum up my position: it's not ideal, but it does the trick reasonably well. --Dweller (talk) 11:45, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Republic vs. Democracy
Many governments have found that republics scale more easily than direct democracies; any merit in considering the idea, here? – Luna Santin  (talk) 02:57, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Luna, I respectfully, but vehemently, disagree, if I understand you correctly. Scale notwithstanding, it is more true that once people relinquish certain rights, it is near impossible to re-obtain them. If we disenfranchise any class of currently acceptable editor from RfA, even if they are to be represented, that class will likely eventually disappear from RfA with all the power held in the hands of the representatives. -- Avi (talk) 06:21, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Just brainstorming. :) Scaling issues may eventually force changes, but heck if I know what they'll be. – Luna Santin  (talk) 21:18, 14 August 2008 (UTC)