Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship/Huon

“factual inaccuracy”
User:Theopolisme did not convince me about factual inaccuracies in my postings. I expect a sysop to be a technically advanced user (unless s/he possesses some obvious advantages beyond MediaWiki abilities, which is not the case), and an advanced script user is expected to be able to deal with his/her script’s shortcomings. If some important script is so poor that can’t generate useful edit summaries in an important usage scenario, then a community of its users should rush to fix their script, not to promote their members to the administration. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 15:53, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Just because a script Huon uses does not give an insightful edit summary, doesn't mean that you should oppose him.buffbills7701 16:03, 12 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Let me just clarify this, since there seems to be some confusion from all parties:
 * Incnis Mrsi objects to Huon's manually written edit summary for redirects as part of AfC.
 * Huon responds, explaining that he based his manually written summary on the one created by a commonly used script at AfC, which he does not usually use. He suggests that Mrsi should ask that the script edit summary be changed as well if he objects to the form Huon has been using.
 * There are not factual inaccuracies in Mrsi's statement. Prodego  talk  16:16, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * My concern was simply how Incnis implied that buffbills7701's use of the AFCH helper script would somehow be different from, say, a sysop's use of the script (You compare yourself with a heavy scripts user, not a sysop, not a candidate, and even without a single privilege in en.WP). However, I've retracted the "factual inaccuracy" comment. Thanks,  Theopolisme ( talk )  18:10, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Of course, I implied that a person who seeks for a position of trust should use his blah-blah-blah-script in a more reasonable manner than a novice user without any positions or ambitions. It is good that you managed to catch my thought, ultimately. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 18:35, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I definitely agree with you in that regard.  Theopolisme ( talk )  19:09, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, I raised the issue of the script edit summaries here. Changing the script wouldn't have an impact on my manual edit summaries except by making my style less common, of course. Huon (talk) 21:11, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * And for what it's worth, I updated the script to include the redirect target in the summary. :)  Theopolisme ( talk )  21:31, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Number of redirects converted to articles, just curious
I'm not spookily "concerned", but I am curious about the massive number of articles showing from the articles created tool, that are actually redirects that other people wrote over. Usually the tool filters out redirects (sometimes not, but lately it is doing so.) Wasn't sure if that is because ANY redirect that is "written over" is credited to the redirect starter (OK), or something from his script (still not some gotcha crime, just unfortunate). It's probably the former...OK. Also, I wonder at having so many redirects that were "written into" articles. I guess he might have a massive amount of redirects and it is just some small percentage of a vast number. But it could also indicate that he is using bad judgment (making something a redirect when it deserves an article). Just curious...

TCO (talk) 20:35, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I think this has more to do with the weaknesses of the tool, as it counts disambiguation pages as pages (which they are, but aren't), and never counts any pages created over redirects as that users, instead giving credit to the person who created the redirect in the first place. My question is, is this actually something we can feasibly fix, because it would up a lot of user's counts and make the page a lot more accurate. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 20:41, 13 July 2013 (UTC)


 * The tool's standard setting filters out some 2,200 redirects I've created, mostly upon request via WP:Articles for creation/Redirects (and again, no, I almost never use the helper script for redirects; while it's invaluable for reviewing articles in the main part of WP:AFC, the redirect creation part of the script was broken until recently and I prefer doing that task manually). Most of the "articles" I'm credited with are either cases where disambiguation pages were more appropriate than redirects or cases where others expanded upon a requested redirect. Huon (talk) 21:13, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment censorship
For some reason, comments are being censored from the main page, so I repost mine here: Oppose The basic problem here is a disconnect between made-up Wikipedia ethics and values and the ethics and values of academic scholarship. The recommendations given for the candidate focus on Wikirules and procedures that have proven not to produce quality content, while ignoring substantive qualifications."24.19.234.62 (talk) 00:20, 14 July 2013 (UTC) Let me just guess that these comments apply equally to the "editors" who reverted them. Who knows what else has been blanked.24.19.234.62 (talk) 00:51, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Only registered editors can !vote in an RfA. Per RFA: "only editors with an account may place a numerical (#) 'vote'."--v/r - TP 13:31, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Then why blank my entire comment? Presumably a bureaucrat can see that the "vote" is from an IP rather than a username?24.19.234.62 (talk) 20:56, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

AFC feedback section
Huon:

1. The two links you gave me were really not helpful for finding your contributions to the help desk. I did eventually trip onto looking at history and found this:, with a lot of remarks by you.


 * A. You seem temperate and knowledgeable and helpful when dealing with the general public.  Kudos.


 * B. I'd love to do a random review of your AFC interactions (in the article submissions themselves, not the help desk).  I am interested to see how you interact with people who have good articles.  (I'm pretty sure based on the help desk work that you will be kind to the people who are getting rejected.)  Not sure how to set that up.

2. I did scan through 500 contribs of yours from end April 2013 (I got tired at the end, so it was like 450 of the 500). I did skim, so apologies if I missed one, but what I saw:


 * A. Did not find a SINGLE place where you had contributed a sentence of referenced content.


 * B. Hard to find a lot of places where you were actually ruling on AFCs themselves (but see above, if there is a way to search it).  I did see you accept one and reject another.  For the latter, you did technically post on the fellows page and inform him it was denied, but did not tell him why.  Really both are pretty questionable topics/articles.  My concern is not so much if you passed on you shouldn't or visa versa (although some sampling would make it easier to tell), but just the impact of working with all this stuff.

Net/net: you have a brain based on the 2005 postings on infinite series. You have been pleasant and kind with the public. I think it's great to be wanting to helping new people coming in...but by necessity your interactions are almost all in the nature of filter, not pump. Also, you have not walked the talk yourself (1.5 stubs doesn't do it). Get a few DYKs and diversify a bit and I would reconsider. But right now, just not seeing it. Giving gnomes or patrollers the delete/block button has negative implications for a reference work with some sophistication and quality.

TCO (talk) 00:52, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It does not surprise me that candidate is active on IRC, given the number of wikinyms willing to aggressively challenge, blank and/or disqualify every oppose vote.24.19.234.62 (talk) 02:29, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * When weak opposes such as "Doesn't write edit summaries up to my silly standards" and "doesn't follow obscure how-to guides despite demonstrating that they followed the particular line that I am upset about" (paraphrased of course) are used as arguments against giving him the bit, it's no wonder folks will stand up for him.--v/r - TP 21:21, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Read my censored objection above, which has nothing to do with wikirules. The opposite, really.24.19.234.62 (talk) 03:37, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Bbb23's support and John's response
Support. I like his answers to the questions. I like the way he writes (indeed, I was suprised to find that English is not his native tongue). I still don't see why article creation is so important to certain editors. I'm sure it helps, just as experience in any area of Wikipedia helps, but if the concern is reliable sources and fair summarizing of them (I think that was one comment from one of the opposers), why isn't that addressed by any significant changes to articles, or substitution of sources, or rewording, or evaluating edits, etc.? Some Wikipedians think that article creation is what it's all about, but isn't the quality of existing articles just as important? This is a solid editor who has demonstrated that he is here to improve the project, that he can be trusted with additional privileges, and that he will continue to improve the project if those privileges are given to him. As a marginally relevant aside, I found it fascinating that the majority of his earliest edits in 2005 were to the talk page of 0.999.... Go figure (sorry).--Bbb23 (talk) 00:36, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if you're talking about me, but I'll respond anyway. I wasn't talking about article creation but about content creation. We are here to write an encyclopedia. If someone can show me one really substantial instance where he has added content to an article I will reconsider my oppose, but I cannot countenance an administrator with no experience of adding content to the project. It is what we are here, collectively, to do, and those who cannot, will not, or do not do it, do not enjoy my respect or my confidence. Show me evidence that he is a "solid editor", and that he will "continue to improve the project" and that this is not just some sort of IRC clique thing. --John (talk) 02:11, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * John, I have some responses to your comments, but rather than clutter up this section with what might be an extended discussion, I'll copy this to the talk page, and you can respond there if you wish.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:40, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

These are my comments, not in any particular order: Regards.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:02, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I wasn't talking about you, John. I didn't even remember that you had opposed. I was responding to all those who opposed based on article/content creation.
 * I certainly have nothing to do with any "IRC clique". I have barely ever used IRC, and on those few occasions, I believe I logged into only the admin channel, not the ones that Huon uses. And even when I did log into the admin channel, I didn't say much. More of a spectator.
 * Regardless of whether this is characterized as content creation or article creation, I don't think either is necessary to be a good admin. It's kind of like the employer who wants to hire the perfect employee. Maybe such a person exists, but, generally, all employees (and admins) have strengths and weaknesses. The two main issues for a prospective admin are (1) whether they can be trusted and (2) whether they will use the tools to benefit the project. I think both of those criteria are met here.
 * As for Huon's content creation, I went through quite a few of his edits, but certainly not all, because there are way too many of them. Overall, I don't see a lot of content creation, so in terms of whether he has created significant content, with that qualification, I would generally agree with you. However, I did find some. Whether it would be enough for you to reconsider your oppose, that, of course, is up to you. My guess is they won't be significant enough to satisfy you. I'll list a few diffs:
 * 
 * 
 * (more significant than others, done right after the article was created by another editor)
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * (this was early days in his tenure, but in my view, he probably should have done some additional work on the article after these edits)
 * (also more significant and right after article creation - also early and suffers from inexperience)
 * This looks like paid/promotional editing, honestly.24.19.234.62 (talk) 03:41, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * According to Talk:Haris Čizmić I copied that content from a sub-page draft (Talk:Haris Cizmic/Temp). While I nowadays would agree that it sounds awfully promotional, back in 2006 the rewritten version was kept at AfD. Our standards have changed for the better. I don't remember how much (or what) I contributed to that draft before copying it. Huon (talk) 04:05, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * So you didn't write that after all. Which other of Bbb23's proposed content contributions did you not write yourself? The great irony is that you wrote on talk, "I also removed the copyvio tag, since the article itself does not look like a copyvio," but by copying the subpage without attribution, you made the entire article a copyvio of wikipedia's own license. That is, unless you wrote the draft. Which I guess you can't remember.24.19.234.62 (talk) 06:18, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * He did not make the entire article a copyvio. When copying text from another page, it is absolutely required to note this so that the attributions can be preserved, and Huon did so on the destination article's talk page.  He also left a message in the edit summary specifically directing readers to this note on the talk page.  It would have been better if he had used a copied template, though this is just a convenience template and isn't strictly required.  —Psychonaut (talk) 08:22, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Are you talking about something that happened in 2006? Unregistered sockpuppet doing archeological studies? Kraxler (talk) 15:19, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * This is diff #9 in Bbb23's list above. He'd listed what he felt to be Huon's substantive contributions, so I looked at some of them. See above.24.19.234.62 (talk) 19:56, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * This IP, who has been active in this RfA (they tried to oppose on the RfA itself and then edit-warred over it when their vote was removed), and who has also edited as User:24.22.129.215, is obviously an experienced user. I'm assuming they have a registered account, which doesn't necessarily mean they are socking, but their edit history and their lack of disclosure is troubling.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:12, 18 July 2013 (UTC)