Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Francis Schuckardt/Workshop

I have not been following this case closely but I recall seeing a suggestion that Athanasius303 is a close follower or associate of Schuckardt. If this can be confirmed, aren't there past cases of bans from articles one is closely involved with (even if its not autobiography?) Thatcher131 23:05, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, however Biographies of living persons counsels a forgiving approach to persons (or their representatives) who become involved in their own articles. While they are not entitled to have the article their own way, they are entitled to correct errors and offer substantial input if they feel they are being misrepresented. Fred Bauder 13:59, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

=Regarding the section entitled "Scurrilous Charges" = I think scurrilous may be overstated.

I know the article on Francis Schuckardt as it now stands only has the quotation from The Spokesman-Review Spokane Chronicle, July 27, 1986 of Denis Chicoine regarding the charge of sexual misconduct by Francis Schuckardt. This however is not the only third party source that deals with this topic. In early 1984, both newspaper and television in Spokane Washington dealt with this allegation. In fact, Chicoine stated that it was these public disclosures on this topic that impelled him to take the steps to oust Schuckardt in June of 1984.

I will go through the archives of the Spokesman Review to find the actual March or April 1984 article so that the only source of this allegation is not Denis Chicoine. The article "The Sect Behind the Shroud" written by Susan Kelleher for the Seattle Times on November 25, 2002 includes this sentance regarding Francis Schuckardt: "In 1984, he was confronted with a program he found particularly disturbing: a Spokane television station's expose, featuring allegations from four of his former seminarians claiming Schuckardt had sexually abused them. Schuckardt denied the allegations but said the confidentiality of confession prevented him from defending himself."

On the same general subject, there is an artile from the King County Journal entitled "Alleged cult molester surrenders" written by Noel Brady that appeared in the paper last November that contains this sentance from the mother of a child who was sexually abused in Schuckardt's church "She said she explained her concerns Monday to a reporter for the NBC-TV news show Dateline. ``I believe (Belzak, Kirkland and Muratore) were abused by leaders of the church, she said. ``Children are being abused not only physically, but mentally and emotionally as well. "

In another article by Noel Brady entitled "Charges shed light on church: Eastside `cult' is likely hiding members accused of sex abuse, police say" is likely hiding members accused of sex abuse, police say" there is this quote "Still, investigators are concerned that sexual abuse of children might be ongoing, and they suspect the church is covering it up."

An article entitled "Investigators: Eastside cult faces sex abuse claim" in the King5 Seattle News also references Chicoine's allegations: "Leaders of his own renegade church eventually ousted Schuckardt, accusing him of fondling young men, abusing prescription drugs and embezzlement, allegations he denied. " The article quotes Kink County Sheriff Department spokesman Travis Defries : "“We do have one victim. There may be a lot more victims out there. Because of the walls that are put up around this organization it's hard for people inside to get out and share their story and share what's happened,” said Defries. "

The Francis Schuckardt artilce as it now appears does have negative accusations against Schuckardt that do not have cited sources. I am pretty sure there are third party sources that can be cited for all the significant charges. Athansius303 contests the addition of these sources because they contained negative information on the subject of the article.


 * One of the problems is that they (however sourced) are only accusations. Bishop Schuckardt has not admitted to anything; there was no successful civil action against him; there was no criminal proceeding. However the accusations played a role the break with the church in Spokane and may need to be mentioned despite lack of evidence of underlying validity. Fred Bauder 13:47, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

This material:

In another article by Noel Brady entitled "Charges shed light on church: Eastside `cult' is likely hiding members accused of sex abuse, police say" is likely hiding members accused of sex abuse, police say" there is this quote "Still, investigators are concerned that sexual abuse of children might be ongoing, and they suspect the church is covering it up."

is much more problematic. Bishop Schuckardt may have failed in some way, or perhaps his church is rotten to the core and this is a symptom, but on its face this could happen to any group of people. What is it doing in an article on him? Fred Bauder 13:53, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * You are right that there has been no civil suit against him on the charge of sexual abuse. I am just demonstrating the there have been allegations from multiple sources over many years so labelling them as scurrilious or grossly abusive could be overstating. As has been demonstrated in the sex scandal brought against many diocese in the Roman Catholic Church, accusers are often too embarrassed to come forward against their abuser. Chicoine was Schuckardt's second in command from the late 60s. Something caused Chicoine to oust Schuckardt. Chicoine claimed he had sworn statements from seminarians on this topic of abuse. Would those statements be allowed in the article? All Athanasius303 has presented is that Chicoine was driven by "greed and a lust for power" with no evidence that such a charge was true. Whereas on the other hand, multiple respected third party sources have found that there was at least enough merit for them to report on the charge of abuse.
 * This charge of sexual abuse is one of 3 main charges used by Chicoine to justify his publibly denouncing Schuckardt. The other two were drug abuse resulting in incompetency to function and claiming to be pope. Schuckardt is quoted in the newspaper as saying he was in constant pain and during police raids, quantities of drugs were found. In Athanasius303's "Response to Accusations" section, he states "Schuckardt denies that ever declared himself to be the pope. Some of his followers, however, believe him to be so based upon their belief that he is the "last true Catholic bishop" in the world and upon the teaching of the Catholic Church that the Church must have a pope" So to me, this demonstrates the other two charges were true which leads more credance to the third charge.
 * Thanks for your response. Bernie Radecki 18:25, 15 June 2006 (UTC)