Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Guanaco, MarkSweep, et al/Evidence

Two notes regarding MarkSweep's evidence
While I can't speak for any of the other examples, the one involving me was based on a misunderstanding-both Golbez and I reverted some strange changes, after discussion with the user we determined that the issue was simply a lack of informative edit summaries. I take no issue whatsoever with Golbez using rollback in this manner.

Additionally, I was curious as to how Mark obtained these statistics- I'd be interested to know what my one rollback of another admin was, and I'm sure others would be as well.--Sean Black (talk) 04:15, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


 * --MarkSweep (call me collect) 20:33, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you. That was a misunderstanding- too many people attempted to revert the same vandalism at once.--Sean Black (talk) 21:38, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I also wonder if it includes rollbacks over ourselves, which I have done at times. Sarge Baldy 17:02, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


 * No. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 20:19, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it does; the only times I have ever reverted another administrator, if my memory serves me correctly, is reverting myself. Also, note that the situation involving someone reverting my edit was also a misunderstanding or mistake on the part of the other administrator; people make mistakes all the time. By the way, the two lists are huge - could a clerk possibly hide the information into a scroll bar? Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note? ) 17:11, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Flcelloguy rolled back edits by TShilo12
 * Flcelloguy rolled back edits by Canderson7 (presumably by mistake)
 * --MarkSweep (call me collect) 20:30, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the links. Yes, both were mistakes; click on "next edit" in both of them and you'll see I reverted my own edits both times. Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note? ) 20:59, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Argh, sorry, I'm about to sleep. I would do this now, but I'm not familiar enough with this aspect of HTML to put it into scrollbars. I just realised that as Tony is recused from this, and I appear to be the only active clerk, I have to look after this case, so I will be tagging myself as the assigned clerk tomorrow. By the way, I don't think that the rollback stats include self-rollbacks. I've rolled back several of my edits many times, as recently as a couple of months back, but I'm not on the list at all. Johnleemk | Talk 17:45, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

(carriage return) I agree that placing the lists in overflow boxes might be a good idea, given their length. The HTML is quite straightforward, John—I append an example below. However, I do think that parties to an RFAr should probably be given considerable space to decide how they would like to present their evidence. It's best to ask Mark first: I'd pop a message on his page to ask what he thought, and whether he might not like to do it himself, before doing anything. Regards — Encephalon 16:09, 14 March 2006 (UTC) PS. Please feel free to remove the example below, once anyone interested is done with it. — Encephalon 16:09, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * (posting between comment and scroll text...) Isn't there also a template that accomplishes this as well? Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note? ) 22:59, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, Flcelloguy, I have no knowledge of an overflow template, although I shan't be surprised if there were one. Category:Wikipedia templates is unpromising, which leaves Special:Allpages for the Template space which is even more daunting. — Encephalon 15:47, 15 March 2006 (UTC) NB If there is one, it does not begin Over-  — Encephalon  15:54, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmm... I distinctly remember seeing a template; then again, my memory could be going away. :-) Thanks anyways! Flcelloguy (A note? ) 18:32, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


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 * 431) Theresa_knott rolled back edits by Neutrality
 * 432) Theresa_knott rolled back edits by Grunt
 * 433) Theresa_knott rolled back edits by Moriori
 * 434) Thue rolled back edits by R3m0t
 * 435) Tillwe rolled back edits by Vsmith
 * 436) Tillwe rolled back edits by Slrubenstein
 * 437) Tillwe rolled back edits by EurekaLott
 * 438) TimPope rolled back edits by Jtdirl
 * 439) Tim_Starling rolled back edits by Brockert
 * 440) Tim_Starling rolled back edits by Jpgordon
 * 441) Tkinias rolled back edits by Sam_Hocevar
 * 442) Tom_harrison rolled back edits by Bhadani
 * 443) Trevor_macinnis rolled back edits by Neutrality
 * 444) Tznkai rolled back edits by Paul_August
 * 445) Ugen64 rolled back edits by Eliezer
 * 446) Ugen64 rolled back edits by RickK
 * 447) UtherSRG rolled back edits by Ed_g2s
 * 448) VampWillow rolled back edits by Seth_Ilys
 * 449) VampWillow rolled back edits by Kingturtle
 * 450) VampWillow rolled back edits by Sjorford
 * 451) Voice_of_All rolled back edits by DanielCD
 * 452) Wapcaplet rolled back edits by Mark_Dingemanse
 * 453) Wesley rolled back edits by Pollinator
 * 454) Wesley rolled back edits by Neutrality
 * 455) Who rolled back edits by GraemeL
 * 456) Wikiacc rolled back edits by Eliezer
 * 457) Wile_E._Heresiarch rolled back edits by WhisperToMe
 * 458) Wile_E._Heresiarch rolled back edits by Sam_Hocevar
 * 459) Wilfried_Derksen rolled back edits by Jmabel
 * 460) Wilfried_Derksen rolled back edits by Evil_Monkey
 * 461) Wilfried_Derksen rolled back edits by Ed_g2s
 * 462) Yamla rolled back edits by Jossi
 * 463) Yamla rolled back edits by RexNL

Charges?
The evidence has been interesting, but what are the charges? Are the charges that MarkSweep has abused his admin authority? Knowing the charges might help solicit evidence for or against.
 * Oh, found them, thanks. Rklawton 05:16, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism
I have included MarkSweep on my user page in a list of several editors who have modified my user page without my permission. I call them vandals. Guanaco also edited my user page. His edits undid the damage caused by MarkSweep. I have listed his name in my user page's "Thank You" section.


 * Your use of the word "vandalism" is different than the accepted meaning within Wikipedia, which according to Vandalism is "...any addition, deletion, or change to content made in a deliberate attempt to reduce the quality of the encyclopedia." It goes on to say, "Any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia, even if misguided or ill-considered, is not vandalism." Unfortunately, the current situation around these issues has become exceedingly acrimonious, and I would advise us all to moderate our language and our actions. Since I actually don't believe one should need "permission" to edit's someone's user page, for pure self-referential amusement I am tempted to impishly edit the Vandals section on your user page to add a remark as to how you define "vandal" and how it differs from Vandalism, and therefore become a vandal by your definition, but that too would be divisive and so I shall refrain. Martinp 15:32, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The operative phrase there, Martinp, is good faith. For several reasons, MarkSweep's actions are prima facie bad faith. By prima facie, I mean that one need look no further than 1) that he knowingly emptied categories, then speedily deleted them because they were empty; 2) that he altered user pages against the express wishes of their subjects with no policy justification; 3) that he repeatedly listed certain unchanged templates for RfD, after loosing previous RfD votes; 4) that he continued his anti-userbox programme after several leaders in the community- including Jimbo- asked that such actions cease. No claim of good faith can successfully attach to these acts. StrangerInParadise 15:23, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the culture here is such that one does not edit another's user page without permission from the user. However, I could be mistaken.  Rklawton 23:13, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * While generally we don't edit other peoples' userpages, it should be noted that the userpage is not restricted to editing by the user; they're just like other wiki pages. Editing of userspaces, without malicious intent, is not vandalism. Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note? ) 23:15, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * MarkSweep unilaterally decided I shouldn't express my interest in a peaceable, law-abiding, and charitable organization (Freemasonry) and so he removed it without warning or invitation to talk. How could this not be construed as vandalism?  Or is that really how it works here in wiki-land?  Is that acceptable and approved administrative behavior?  When I saw that edit on my user page, I felt most unwelcome as a contributor.  When I saw Guanaco's reversion I heaved a sigh of relief, asked MarkSweep not to vandalize my user page again, and continued with my work.


 * I think MarkSweep should be asked if he will behave as befitting an administrator. He might do with a bit of guidance on that matter.  If he agrees, great.
 * I think Guanaco deserves a barnstar for defending the defenseless. Rklawton 05:48, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm a little late replying in the section, but MarkSweep's actions clearly are vandalism, even if they were policy or good for Wikipedia, (neither of which has been established). It should also be pointed out that MarkSweep probably killed WP:UPP by bringing the actual effects to the attention of the users who would be affected by it.  &mdash; Arthur Rubin | (talk) 14:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Moot
Given the numerous workarounds to userboxes and categories, workarounds that will achieve the same effect, the "userbox" matter has become moot at best and divisive at worst. I think Jimbo recognized this when he expressed the desire for a cultural change, one user at a time. MarkSweep has clearly disregarded this recommendation.

Nazi
Benefits to user boxes. Let's take the extreme case of an editor who identifies him/herself as a Nazi. I would find this bit of information rather useful when assessing the individual's edits. Though an edit should stand or fall on its own merits, the fact that I know an edit comes from an acknowledged Nazi would spur me on to put forth the effort necessary to verify or debunk the edit. Without that motivation, I might not bother. I might just figure someone else is fact checking that day. Wikipedia was built and is maintained by people who bother, and userboxes may well be one of those motivating factors.

Candor
Lastly, I appreciate an editor's candor when they add userboxes to their user page. Can you fathom the tremendous impact "userboxes" would have if main stream media journalists also used them? Just imagine under each talking journalist head a userbox stating who they voted for in the last national election!!! The world would be better off, and I argue that Wikipedia already reaps those benefits. Rklawton 02:54, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is not about assessing other's viewpoints. It's about building an encyclopedia, and you don't need to know someone's stance on a particular issue to do this. If a neutrality dispute occurs, it should be about the edits of an editor, not about his userboxes. Johnleemk | Talk 08:32, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think it hurts to put people's edits in perspective. You can say as Jimbo has that on Wikipedia you become detached from your own biases, but I think that concept is pretty backwards. People are always going to be biased, and especially on contentious topics it helps to acknowledge it. I've seen editors on Wikipedia who are convinced they're not expressing a POV at all, and so naturally consider everyone around them trying to push an agenda. At least in dealing with contentious topics, it is necessary for editors to admit they have a POV before you can work together to reconcile those POVs. Sarge Baldy 16:14, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Nobody denies that we will always have our own biases. However, just because we have them doesn't mean we ought to flaunt them. I don't care about userboxes, but I don't think they should be wantonly encouraged. Would not the same person who places a POV userbox on his page still acknowledge his POV if asked about it in an alternate universe with no userboxes? Johnleemk | Talk 16:21, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I think there's some editors who would refuse to acknowledge their POV, whether userboxes existed or not. And there's others who would continue to express their POV whether userboxes existed or not. I don't think we should be encouraging or discouraging userboxes, but allowing users to decide for themselves rather than forcing one position or another on the entire userbase. Sarge Baldy 17:06, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Which is...exactly what I've been saying all along. :D Johnleemk | Talk 06:14, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

On userboxes
I don't know how official that is, but the complaint by Kelly Martin states explicitly, that this case should be about the actions involved and not about userboxes themselves. Therefore evindence to support 'Polemical and inflammatory userboxes pose a serious problem for Wikipedia' and other related claims might be of little use or even counterproductive. Tinus 15:07, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * In my view, divorcing the actions from the circumstances would be very mistaken. --Tony Sidaway 15:13, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * That's a good point. If MarkSweep was being destructive, then Guanaco may have been acting both in good faith and entirely appropriately.  Therefore, this entire case may revolve around userboxes and whether or not they were (or should be) fair game for elimination in whole or in part.  If they are fair game, then Guanaco's actions are suspect.  If they are not, then he should get a barnstar.  As a result, I don't see how this can progress far without considering userboxes.  Rklawton 18:19, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * On the other hand, if it does involve userboxes, then this entire RFAr should be combined with WP:RFAr:Tony. At the very least, Tony should not be refactoring pages here.  &mdash; Arthur Rubin | (talk) 18:27, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe that Tony Sidaway has already recused himself from this case. Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note? ) 18:30, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Only as clerk. Tony Sidaway is filling this page with his idea of what passes for evidence. StrangerInParadise 01:52, 22 March 2006 (UTC)


 * That seems OK to me &mdash; he could fill his own RfAr with "his idea of what passes for evidence", even if he's wrong. &mdash; Arthur Rubin | (talk) 13:23, 22 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I am not saying that he has no standing (he recused himself as clerk so as to participate, which is fine), I am saying that most of his submissions- whatever other merits they may have- are simply not evidence of anything but his opinions. BTW, this is not his own RfAr. StrangerInParadise 15:30, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 * ...and his baseless suspicions and innuendo as well. I would have thought that the clerk for this matter would be policing such abuse of an evidence page. StrangerInParadise 03:56, 28 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Guanaco was acting both in good faith and entirely appropriately whether MarkSweep is deemed to have acted in good faith or not. There is a policy governing deletions, which Guanaco upheld. There is no policy supporting MarkSweep's rogue actions, period.  The "evidence" presented by many here attempts to simultaneously expand the scope of the RfAr, apply retroactively principles not in existence at the time of the acts, and somehow assert that these place Guanaco in a more culpable position than MarkSweep. Black truly becomes white! Even at face value, it doesn't answer for all MarkSweep's actions, for example, unlinking categories from templates, then speedily deleting the categories under CSD-C1 (empty), which is prima facie bad faith. StrangerInParadise 19:55, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The original complaint is about edit warring and wheel warring. These are matters of conduct, not of content; the complaint would have been the same had the same conduct happened over article pages, talk pages, user pages or anything else. It is true that the involvement of userboxes - and the involvement of MarkSweep, who has been associated with a number of userbox deletions - adds a dimension of controversy to this arbitration, because of the present community imbroglio on userboxes. However, this added dimension should not skew the arbitration; after all, do we really want a precedent that states edit warring or even wheel warring is acceptable under some circumstances? Do we really want the AC to propose principles that may only exacerbate the userbox situation? Lets' leave this as an inquiry into conduct, and deal with the userbox quandary separately. &mdash; digital eon  &bull; talk @ 06:56, 25 March 2006 (UTC)