Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Waterboarding/Evidence

Discussion about evidence, below. AGK (talk) 16:36, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Regarding Evidence provided by User:209.221.240.193
Hinnen used this same ploy repeatedly; claiming that all of his sock edits coming from that address were just "other employees" of the company, and then "family members" of his who just happened to write the same way he did and on exactly the same subjects. My personal belief is that Bosch should be regarded as an "open proxy" until they demonstrate some control of their employees. I also believe that the Wiki Foundation office ought to contact them and let them know this. --BenBurch (talk) 19:09, 16 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree 100% with "Bosch should be regarded as an "open proxy" until they demonstrate some control of their employees" and the foundation must contact them and complain in the strongest terms that there employees are damageing wikipedia. (Hypnosadist )  04:40, 18 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Please explain how the "209" IP editor has "damaged Wikipedia." Provide a link to just one diff by the "209" editor since May 2007 that was damaging in any way. Neutral Good (talk) 13:34, 19 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Why are you qualifying this with "May 2007"? Do you have any evidence beyond your own personal opinion that BryanFromPalatine has not used the IP since the last block was placed on one of us his confirmed sockpuppets? Lawrence Cohen  14:29, 19 January 2008 (UTC)


 * There's no evidence that the unregistered IP has been used to edit Free Republic, or its Talk page, for about a year. Checkuser can only go back 30-60 days to see whether registered users have used that IP address. Let's see what results they produce. If it's absolutely nothing, as in ❌ or, how will you respond? Will you take half a second to say "I'm sorry" and plunge onward as if you'd done nothing wrong? Neutral Good (talk) 17:40, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
 * If a checkuser tells me I'm wrong, yes, I would apologize. Lawrence Cohen  17:51, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't believe it should end there for you, Mr. Cohen. You've abused administrative process. Repeated Checkusers and threats of administrative action have poisoned the atmosphere at Talk:Waterboarding. People who disagree with you feel bullied. I'm one of them, and I feel bullied. That's why I'm leaving. Your behavior is costing the Wikipedia project and the Waterboarding article several editors who find you unpleasant to work with. You may have the best of intentions, but you have been heavy-handed in applying for administrative action against us. This should not be allowed to pass without consequences. 209.221.240.193 (talk) 16:19, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Another BFP stunt is to use those Checkuser icons in arguments. --BenBurch (talk) 16:41, 21 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Here's why I qualify that with "May 2007." That appears to be the point in time that BryanFromPalatine stopped using that IP address. For all we know, he doesn't even work there any more. Neutral Good (talk) 17:47, 19 January 2008 (UTC)]


 * Pure speculation. Lawrence Cohen  17:51, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Post it to evidence with examples. Lawrence Cohen  16:43, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
 * What you appear to be saying, Lawrence, is that if a Wikipedian is ever indefinitely blocked, then any new account from that geographic region of the earth who even remotely resembles the blocked user must also be blocked as a proxy. Even if the Chicago area wasn't the communications nerve center of the entire Midwest, there are about 10 million people living in Chicago or one of its suburbs. Are all of them to be blocked on sight if they arrive at Wikipedia and disagree with you? And if a Wikipedia editor in Los Angeles, or London, or Dallas/Ft. Worth is indefinitely blocked, and other new accounts appear from those vast metropolitan areas who happen to disagree with you, must they also be blocked as proxies of the blocked user? Neutral Good (talk) 17:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Repeating a disputed and demonstrably incorrect series of multiple times does not make them so. Are you assuming everyone will eventually tire of you and stop answering, so that the statements eventually become fact? Further demonstration of your disruptive nature, as demonstrated before in evdidence. You have no net positive contributions to Wikipedia, are a tenditious editor, and move out of your way to bait other editors and to inflame situations. You are here to only edit one particular subsection of Wikipedia, and have admitted you have a long history on Wikipedia. You edit from a physical location within 10-15 miles of where BryanFromPalatine edits, as demonstrated by your own admission of your IP address, and also edit the same extremist conservative stance that he edited from, in the same manner of "voice", or with the same combatative and legalistic tone. You pass the WP:DUCK test, and per precedent should be banned. And to answer your question, yes, Wikipedia historically does exactly what you said with such editors. If the editors from the same places come back to the same articles with the same language, tone, and agenda, yes: Wikipedia shoots them on sight, and always has. Lawrence Cohen  18:06, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
 * You sound more and more like BFP's socks with each and every edit! BFP, despite appearances, is not actually stupid.  He is smart enough to use WiFi cafes and stolen service from open WiFi's for example, and smart enough to sign up for a different ISP for another.  In fact he pretty much had to when he moved as he moved outside the territory of his previous cable system provider.  In his case, we have to depend on the voice and similarities in style, and we have all of those here.--BenBurch (talk) 16:50, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Bryan Hinnen has pretty much permanently poisoned the well for anyone advocating for Free Republic from that region of Illinois, in that sort of voice, with this sort of defensive legal tone. Because of his shenanigans and ability to change IPs at will it will make life hard for any conservatives there to defend torture or Free Republic on Wikipedia in the future. Lawrence Cohen  16:54, 21 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I keep seeing these claims about "the same articles" and "the same language, tone and agenda," but I never see any proof supporting either claim. If I'm Bryan, did I come back to the same article? Is acknowledging that a dispute exists over the "waterboarding is torture" claim, and seeking to have a lead sentence in the article that doesn't pretend the dispute doesn't esist, really an "extremist conservative stance"? And Lawrence, look at the reams of evidence you've dumped here and try to tell me that you're not "combative and legalistic." Neutral Good (talk) 18:12, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
 * No, I'm tired of seeing SPAs and banned disruptive users wreck this project.
 * Shibumi2 edits from the same approximate location as both yourself and BryanFromPalatine and is a proven by Checkuser abusive sockpuppeteer. Shimbumi2 was created immediately after BryanFromPalatine was blocked. Shibumi2 edited a few Japanese related articles, and was several times corrected on his incorrect use of Japanese--unusual, for a supposed native speaker. Shibumi2 then, suddenly, took an interest as demonstrated in the evidence section in Free Republic, pushing the same agenda as BryanFromPalatine. Same location. Same agenda. Same article. Account created right after BFP was banned. Various "Bob" Sprint IPs on the Free Republic talk page "pimped" Shibumi2, and how hard he must be working with English as a second language, and what a noble defender of NPOV he was! The same schpiel you tried to sell--almost WORD FOR WORD--on the deleted and aborted Shibumi2 RFA that you initiated. So lets recap. You, Shibumi2, the Bobs, the 209 person, and Bryan Hinnen all appear to edit physically in the same basic location. At least three of these players--the 209, Shibumi2, and BryanFromPalatine have proven Sockpuppetry history and farms of accounts a mile long. In some cases, with differing voices, but always with the same agendas. Neoconservatism, Conservatism and ultimately tracing back to Free Republic. You edit from the same place, used the same "Praise Shibumi!" language as the Bobs, and all have the same legalistic flair for confrontation and button pushing. WP:DUCK beyond easily, before you even get into the IP address information. I think it's past time for the Checkusers to go duck hunting and stop this very long term disruption of Wikipedia permanently. Lawrence Cohen  18:21, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
 * If you'd paid attention to Shibumi2's edits, you'd know that he isn't a full-blooded Japanese, and that Japanese is not the language that he learned at home from his parents. "Proven by Checkuser" is not incapable of making a mistake. There were so many events happening so fast with Bryan and his socks that any account created about a year ago could be suspiciously linked to some significant event. "The same basic location" that we APPEAR to edit from is not only the communications nerve center for the Midwestern United States, it is also one of the world's largest metropolitan areas, with about 10 million inhabitants; population density in the neighborhood of 1,000 per square mile; the world headquarters of two of North America's largest Internet providers, Comcast and AT&T. I'm no neocon, and neither is the "209" IP editor. The agenda we share is WP:NPOV. Neutral Good (talk) 01:13, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Why are you still replying? Go edit an article and prove you are here for Wikipedia. Lawrence Cohen  03:38, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * At one point you said, "If the editors from the same places come back to the same articles with the same language, tone, and agenda, yes: Wikipedia shoots them on sight, and always has." But later you said, "In some cases, with differing voices, but always with the same agendas." So you have conceded on the language and tone, Mr. Cohen, because that's what "differing voices" means; the "same agenda" is a quest to comply with WP:NPOV and nothing more; and therefore, the new accounts shouldn't be "shot on sight." 209.221.240.193 (talk) 21:21, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, yes WP:BITE and all that. But when a new editor appears and takes up the agenda of a disgraced editor, our rules here allow us to treat them all as a single person, and block them all.  As we did a year ago.  As we are going to be forced to do now.  You may expect that there are no real world consequences to what you do here, but remember that nothing you do or say on the Internet ever really goes away.  It would really be best to stop the game playing and apologize like an adult.  Could you please?  Then a lot of good people can get back to making this a great encyclopedia.  Thanks.  --BenBurch (talk) 16:40, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Regarding Evidence provided by User:Neutral Good
Please note that Bryan's socks here and elsewhere have often claimed to be Liberals or Neutral as some googling on "Bryan Hinnen" will show you... --BenBurch (talk) 04:30, 18 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Neutral Good's statements appear to be Red herrings, because they do not accord with the editing pattern. Additionally, the idea that User:209.221.240.193 is actually lots of different people does not make sense.  There is very little to suggest any difference in writing style, areas of interest or point of view.  If in fact 17,000 were using that IP address to access the internet, we would expect a diversity of opinions and styles.  We don't see that.  Jehochman  Talk 17:24, 18 January 2008 (UTC)


 * That's not necessarily true, Jehochman, There may be 17,000 (or 24,750) using that IP address to access the Internet. But only a few, or a few dozen, might have used it to edit Wikipedia without registering an account. Neutral Good's statements are not red herrings, because Neutral Good has never edited Free Republic or its Talk page and never will. Freepers are homophobic neanderthals. Neutral Good (talk) 13:33, 19 January 2008 (UTC)


 * And those few are all interested in the same set of articles and edit with the same voice and same political point of view? Please stop making rude comments about the Freepers.  That's not going to impress anyone.  Can you show me any edits where you have reverted Freeper POV pushing? Jehochman  Talk 14:05, 19 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The "same political point of view" looks like NPOV to me, with regards to the Waterboarding article. Regarding your claim that they edit the "same set of articles," I don't believe that Clemson University, Claude-Jean Allouez‎, Molybdenum, Value Stream Mapping, Free Republic, Strouhal Number, Marfan Syndrome, Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus‎, Waterboarding, Telex Communications, Michigan Technological University‎, and Piezoelectricity could reasonably be described as a consistent set of interests. That set of articles represents the interests of several people. Neutral Good (talk) 17:40, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
 * NPOV interpretation is fundamentally disagreed upon, hence this RFAR. As for interests... Just like my most frequently edited articles are Storm botnet, Blackwater Worldwide, 2007 Peruvian meteorite event, Joe Szwaja, List of portable software, Waterboarding, Bezhin Meadow, Ballard Carnegie Library, Blackwater Worldwide arms smuggling allegations, Erik Prince, Andrew J. Moonen, Ballard Avenue Historic District, Juddmonte Farms, Krzyżtopór, Megan Meier suicide controversy, and Three Gorges Dam. Are those the interests of just one person or multiple? Private armies, historic foreign cinema, space sciences, interests near where I grew up long ago, horse breeding/racing, Poland, and large scale civil engineering topics. Whats your point? A lone person can have multiple interests, and always does in real life. There are no Single-Purpose Accounts in real life. Only on Wikipedia. Lawrence Cohen  17:59, 19 January 2008 (UTC)


 * It appears to me, Lawrence, that you are an unusual case. You have far more time on your hands to edit Wikipedia than the average person and seem capable of doing 100 edits a day. You have a broad range of interests. Most people aren't like that. Neutral Good (talk) 18:07, 19 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Argument in the third person like that is something you lawyers learn, Dino. --BenBurch (talk) 16:53, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

re: New Linkage between Samurai Commuter and banned Bryan
Eschoir's evidence here also can explain how IPs are so trivially hopped by a sockpuppeteer in general. Remote desktop for those that don't know lets you "control" a desktop on another computer (anywhere on Earth) as if you were actually on that computer physically. Posting this information only in case anyone didn't know what that software was. Lawrence Cohen 06:23, 21 January 2008 (UTC)


 * If he can do that, isn't it inconsistent with your theory? Why would someone in Palatine choose to use IP addresses in Hoffman Estates and Elmhurst when he could be using IP addresses in Krasnoyarsk and Beijing? Would you please shoot a hole in your other foot now, Lawrence? Neutral Good (talk) 06:34, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Can we please block this disruptive troll for further violations of No Personal Attacks? I posted to explain what the software DOES. Nothing specific to this case. Lawrence Cohen  14:40, 21 January 2008 (UTC)


 * He's got a point, Mr. Cohen, although he was less than perfectly civil in making it. You posted this remote desktop info in an effort to convince Arbitrators that Bryan could be running IP addresses "anywhere on Earth," particularly if he's the same "Clemson Tiger" at Wikipedia and at Free Republic. If he can run IP addresses "anywhere on Earth," why would he pick IP addresses within 15 miles of his home and attract attention and suspicion from people like you? It just doesn't make sense. 209.221.240.193 (talk) 14:46, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
 * No Bryan, you have no point, and you have right to post here. Lawrence Cohen  14:49, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'm going to intervene here, as an uninvolved Administrator, and caution all those in this dispute against incivility and making personal attacks. Such behaviour does not bode well for the arbitration process as a whole, in terms of its effectiveness and its overall, project-wide benefit: it simply serves to introduce sub-disputes which detract from the main issues at hand.


 * I am willing to implement blocks to enforce civility on Wikipedia in general, including on this page, and in order to prevent further disruption. I issue this to all parties in general, but with a particular emphasis towards the anonymous editor interacting with Lawrence: your interactions are of a poor standard of civility, and it is unacceptable. Please cease at once, all of you: discuss civilly, or not at all. Anthøny 20:39, 21 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you SO very much, Anthøny! --BenBurch (talk) 16:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Back to the technical issue. Via a remote login technology one can indeed control a computer anywhere in the world. That can be as trivial as using telnet and lynx, or logging on to a remote linux machine and running Firefox via an X11 tunnel. What all these approaches require is an account (wether official or hacked) at the other end. Thus, remote logins may allow any given user to show a pattern of wide geographic dispersal, but this approach typically restricts him or her to simulate editing from a small number of locations. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:21, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I have thought about this before, and it would be pretty trivial to script this up into an automated system that would allow you to spam Wikipedia from as many remote sites as you can get your hands on - I read once that compromised hosts change hands for $0.25, so it would be many. I'm surprised nobody's done it yet. It's a basic flaw of the Wikipedia model. What you couldn't do, however, is generate original content automatically - all of these accounts would appear as SPAs. That's why I think it's necessary to evaluate past contribution history, and why, although there's apparently nothing wrong with SPAs, they should be discriminated against in controversial articles. If some content is worth adding, then someone who has established a history of contributions will add it. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 23:04, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

More evidence they're all BFP
Here going after this "archenemy" Eschoir. This is all a horrendous waste on WP's resources and people dealing with this guy. Neutral Good has NOTHING to do with that situation. He has no relationship with Eschoir, Commuter, and doesn't care about Free Republic he claims. Yet here he rides to SC's defense. Please. Lawrence Cohen 14:47, 21 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Please add this to evidence. Why isn't Samurai Commuter blocked yet as a sock? Jehochman  Talk 14:53, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

It would have been nice for someone to let me know about this at AN3. ;) I could buy Neutral Good = Samurai Commuter based on the conversation at AN3 - EXCEPT that they both have edits at 06:39, 18 January 2008 (east coast time, I think that's 11:39 GMT).  With the exception of that lone match, their edits are pretty streaky (one edits for a few hours, then the other edits for a few hours). But based on that match, if they are socks, they are doing a pretty good job. --B (talk) 05:24, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I noticed that one overlap, but otherwise there is no interleaving. This points to one puppetmaster more than separate users.  A clever puppetmaster can generate a small number of simultaneous edits from different IPs by using remote desktop, or by having more than one Internet connection (e.g. Cellular and Landline).  Jehochman  Talk 05:37, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Please consult Occam's Razor. Thank you. Neutral Good (talk) 17:29, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I have investigated further and determined that it is unlikely that Neutral Good = Samurai Commuter. Jehochman Talk 17:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Actual Illegality?
I think some of the administrators with checkuser privilege might consider that some of the IP service being used by this apparent box of socks may be stolen from others who are unaware that their machines are being so used. If this is found to be the case, what would policy be, other than blocking that address? A friend in law enforcement pointed out that there is a large list of open proxies at a Russian site and that he knows that criminals routinely use that list to conduct business, changing proxies frequently. And at least some of those proxies are undoubtedly not intentional on the part of their hosts. --BenBurch (talk) 16:53, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Looks like more issues over on the FR page.
I had set out to refactor that page a few weeks ago, but until the socks can be dealt with, there is not much point to it. :-( --BenBurch (talk) 18:50, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Proxies Galore!
I asked my law enforcement friend more about that russian proxy list. Here it is; http://www.samair.ru  It is an ever changing list of open proxies that you can connect to with firefox just by changing its proxy settings. You do not have to even change your OS settings that effect IE or Safari when you do this because FF maintains its own. Then you can have two browsers open at once on a single machine and post from both with the same timecode. Note that some of the proxies on this list are legitimate, in that they are intentional, but many are just some poor SOB that had his machine compromised by a bot or by his own mis-handling and which were discovered by IP scanners.

I strongly recommend that the people in charge of Open Proxy Blocking add all the IPs on this list NOW and revisit this list frequently as it seems to change hourly. --BenBurch (talk) 19:31, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

On the subject of whether Waterboarding is torture.
You know, I'll happily perform waterboarding on anybody who insists it is not torture. Then when I've had my way with you for a few hours, or days, you can make an actually informed determination on the subject. (But sadly, it will be Original Research...) I promise it won't hurt ME a bit! --BenBurch (talk) 19:44, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Neutral Good = Shibumi2?
Is anyone able to rebut my evidence that these two accounts never edit at the same moment in time, most likely because they are controlled by one person? Jehochman Talk 07:37, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I am going to go out on a limb here and say no. Shibumi2 has a pretty stable timeframe for editing as well as Neutral Good. The fact that a checkuser was run during and picked up Shibumi2 and not Neutral Good explicitly helps me lean towards no. The fact that Shibumi2 has left editing the waterboarding article and back to the usual ships/FR article pattern pretty much tells me s/he is unrelated or a really good sleeper. These facts together provide enough evidence of doubt for me at least in regards to him. His English patterns also differ quite a bit from the people he has been linked to. At this point, all the evidence against him or her is pretty circumstantial and he would be a hell of a sleeper he is one. Since he got blatantly caught, I doubt that is the case. spryde | talk  21:27, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I honestly think that confirmation bias is starting to come into play and everybody is seeing things they want to see. Take a step back and take a look at both most benign explanation and most sinister explanation and see what is more likely. spryde | talk  21:29, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
 * This is why these things need to be done in the open. Thank you for your comments. Jehochman  Talk 21:50, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
 * One thing bothers me. How can these two editors go on for a month, where one or the other edits during the same 18:00 - 02:00 timeframe, but never both at the same time.  Are they calling each other on the phone to decide who is going to edit, or is there some other reason they both never appear at the same time?  How do we explain that?  The probability of this happening by chance is rather small, maybe 1 in 1000. Jehochman  Talk 04:00, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Neither one of us edits every day. Both of us can go for weeks, and in Shibumi2's case even months without editing. Then there's a burst of activity, with 10 or 12 edits within a span of half an hour, or one hour, or two hours. With editing patterns like these, the probability of this happening by chance is better than 50/50. Neutral Good (talk) 17:26, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Observers may review the evidence and form their own conclusions. Jehochman  Talk 17:28, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Meatpuppetry=sockpuppetry. Remember remote users.

Would sure like to see Samurai Commuter's times added to your table. Eschoir (talk) 04:12, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I will do that. The table exists in Excel, and I found the tool that converts spreadsheets to wikitables.  If you would like a copy there's a link on my userpage. Jehochman  Talk 04:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Shibumi2 apparently edits for about half an hour when he gets home from school or work, just a few times a week. That's a narrow window of opportunity, but I'll watch for him to start editing and try to "interleave" my edits with his. However, I will only go to this trouble if Jehochman will concede that it actually proves something to him. It's a hassle. I'm not going to invest the effort if he's just going to rationalize his way out of it once I've done it. What do you say, Jehochman? If I interleave my edits with Shibumi2's edits, will you admit that we're probably not the same person? Or will you try to Wikilawyer your way around it? Neutral Good (talk) 12:16, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


 * If you know that I am looking for interleaving, it is easy to demonstrate. Jehochman Talk 14:04, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Here's an example using my declared alternate account. Jehochman2 (talk) 14:05, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I will check the month of December to see if there is any interleaving there, before anybody knew that we would be looking for this. Jehochman Talk 14:06, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * There is no point in arguing because maybe evidence will appear to disprove the hypothesis. Jehochman2 (talk) 14:06, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Just so. Jehochman Talk 14:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, just what I thought. You're rationalizing/Wikilawyering your way out of it. Neutral Good (talk) 17:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * All users are reminded of the standards of civility that are being upheld on this page. Editors who repeatedly disrupt this page with personal attacks and overly-heated discussion may be banned from this page, and/or blocked from editing. AGK (talk) 17:05, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Now that this method of looking for sockpuppetry has been declared, any edits after today probably wouldn't be worth noting or considering. Lawrence § t/e 14:10, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I do think we established that BFP was a heavy meatpuppet user as well. --BenBurch (talk) 15:53, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, and even if sock puppetry and meat puppetry are not involved, if users are being disruptive, they too can be banned from locus of disruption. I have no problem with Shibumi2 editing other articles where they do not cause disruption.  Jehochman  Talk 16:02, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Neutral good has announced a wikibreakEschoir (talk) 15:36, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * All parties are reminded a final time about the basic standards of civility that are expected, and are being upheld, on this page. Any editors who engage in disruptive communications, a practice incivility, or make use of personal attacks or unfriendly language will be prohibited from editing this page, and may be blocked from editing. AGK (talk) 18:47, 11 February 2008 (UTC)