Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/El Gringo

Accepted
Does someone move this into the 'accepted' section or are we at liberty to do so when the conditions listed in the opening paragraph are met? --Robdurbar 18:45, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The page isn't protected and I couldn't see any dire warnings, so I've moved this. Hope that's ok. Addhoc 11:09, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Provocation?
I have not seen any of this provocation that some commentators have mentioned. I'm not saying that this is not the case, as I have not seen everything that El Gringo has added, but I would appreciate it if any of the editors who have witnessed this provocation include links to some examples. --Mal 00:51, 8 September 2006 (UTC)


 * One such case is described in the WP:PAIN report listed in the Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute, where a personal attack was made in response to being described as a racist. I wouldn't call it an excusable response, but it was provoked. --Crimsone 00:59, 8 September 2006 (UTC)


 * To be honest - though I didn't want to name names - I was thinking in particular of many User:TharkunColl's comments at Talk:British Isles. --Robdurbar 11:02, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I can't see that as provocation. TharkunColl's response was due to provocation however. If you make personal attacks against a person or a group of people, it would be a natural to respond in kind. I'm not saying TharkunColl was right in responding (he should probably have come here instead).

Bear in mind that I'm saying this in retrospect, and I haven't gone back to look at the conversations that took place. Nor have I looked to see if TharkunColl warned El Gringo of his conduct first, before responding to the racist comment. --Mal 20:44, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Kangaroo Court?
Familiar faces popping out of the eternal woodwork. Is this the British court putting the Irish editor on quasi trial. Will it be fair, or will it be déjà vu? This will be interesting! MelForbes


 * No Mel, users who are fed up at receiving abuse from another user have had enough. El Gringo pipelinks 'English' to read 'Oliver Cromwell' - how would Germand or Austrian readers feel if I piped their states to read 'Adolf Hitler', or the Russians to read 'Joesph Stalin'. He makes comments like 'Now, you please piss off with your abjectly offensive jingoism towards Irish people' when users suggest that they understand a term to mean something different to his understanding. Or makes comments like 'You are, like so many of your fellow countrymen, consumed in your own self-deceit when it comes to using violent means to achieve political aims. British state violence to achieve political aims is grand- always, it seems' - without actually bothering to read that the user he was talking to was Irish.


 * El Gringo has repeatedly flounted other Wikipedia policies, such as WP:POINT, and has removed good faith accusations from his talk page. --Robdurbar 23:17, 8 September 2006 (UTC)


 * My simple point is this, ElGringo I guess would class himself as an Irish based editor. And all the complainants (including Mal of course), are British. Don't see any Americans, or Germans, or Austrians in the pack.  Maybe if Irish editors weren't insulted so much by some the British editors, then this page might not exist. MelForbes 23:47, 8 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm actually also Irish. I haven't noticed any insults going my way from other British editors. --Mal 11:21, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Mal, you did actually say that you are a British editor, and that's what I relied upon. I think that you only get insulted by Irish editors, LOL(tongue in cheek). I do beleive that any issues on this page can be resolved in an open and friendly tone, and it serves this page well to set the markers and the background of the peers. MelForbes 13:35, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Mel I did actually inform you, in our previous and similar conversation, that I was Irish. You can accept this, or we can have this perpetual conversation. Up to you. --Mal 19:10, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not British, I'm welsh ('Cymru am Byth!). lol
 * Seriously though, there was a point to that (apart from the fact that the Irish and the Welsh get along pretty well on the whole lol). I am a completely impartial person, I agree at least in part with the point El Gringo was trying to make when I became involved, offered no provocation myself, and aknowledged in this report (one of the first if not THE first to do so here) that El Gringo has been provoked a little on occasions. However, I stand by my conclusion that the report is accurate. Of course, El Gringo is yet to respond to the report, although has been told of it. If and when El Gringo decides to respond, he can do so unhindered. :) --Crimsone 23:57, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I've had a few issues with El Gringo: his tone is strong, and he makes some bull assertions. But his contributions are useful. I haven't suffered personal abuse, but then the general Brits Out! tone isn't personal abuse either, is it? Not sure. I only get bugged when editors flood talk pages with endless propaganda. If users are being driven nuts, I recommend contact with User:Musical Linguist: she's a very balanced and sympathetic Irish administrator - maybe the best on WP - and it wouldn't surprise me if she's already had to deal with El Gringo.--Shtove 00:03, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:PAIN got nowhere
Victims of El Gringo's abuse may be disappointed to read this: User talk:Shell Kinney. Gsd2000 20:51, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Discussion moved to talk page
Removed the following discussion from the RfC page.EricR 23:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Could you give a diff as to what you feel was a personal attack on the AfD that you linked to? I only see one comment by El Gringo which, though highly opinionated, doesn't appear to be any kind of a personal attack.  Unfortunately, I also see some incredible incivil behavior by other editors, including yourself. Shell babelfish 20:59, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Excuse me?!? I didn't think this page was supposed to be for discussion. However, I'd like you to point out where you feel I have been uncivil in any way to El Gringo.
 * The entry which is very obviously a personal attack against me on the page I linked to, is plain for all to see. As clearly you have missed it, I will paste it here in full:

Comment: Seeing that this has digressed....Mal: you are as much an Irishman as a Pied-noir was an Algerian. I wish it were different, but it isn't. Like the self-declared French in Algeria, your identity is nothing unless you can define yourself by being everything the Irish are not. If you, or people of your mentality, ever became Irish like the rest of us your entire self-definition as part of a "superior race" would be over. Without privilege in all its forms, your communal identity has lost its foundation stone. It is for that reason that you all bellow about how "British" you are: you need to separate yourselves from the rest of Ireland's people. In that separation is your privilege, and in your privilege is now, and always has been, the glacial heart of British unionist identity. You are no Stephen Rea, alas. El Gringo 20:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * CommentUser Mal has a certain modus operandi, he pushes POV mainly into Irish related pages and irritates other editors. Then he starts mentioning WP.Civil and WP.NPA at the slightest disapproval. Basically the editor is a WP brawler and should only be listened with caution. That's my belief. Have a look at some of his talk edits and you'll see the pattern. Only today, look at his tone . 86.42.142.238 14:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * My tone befits the tone of the person I was responding to on that talk page. I'd really like to know how an anonymous user, who has contributed all of 5 or so edits, has suddenly appeared and thinks they know I have a certain "modus operandi". Frankly, I do have a modus operandi - to ensure that articles contain factual information as much as possible. This is often hard because Wikipedia policy is concerned with verifiability rather than truth.
 * I disagree in the strongest of terms with your accusations that I "push POV", whether it concerns Irish-related articles or not. I also disagree with your accusation that I am a "WP brawler"... whatever that is. I have never seen you before today but I suggest that if you have a personal problem with me, we can discuss it amicably on my talk page instead of cluttering up this page and detracting from the discussion in question. --Mal 02:19, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * This really isn't the place to raise this. If anyone has a problem with Mal's editing, and evidence to back it up, a separate RfC should be opened. And can you sign in please. Stu   ’Bout ye!  15:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Here, here. Djegan 17:44, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Robdurbar comments moved to talk
Moved from Outside View section.EricR 23:06, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that although many of the diffs are recent, much of this behvaiour has been ongoing for a while. Also, I do accept that El Gringo has had some provocation from one or two users, who I certainly do not endorse; but this does not change the fact that Gring's edits are repeatedly uncivil to all, not just those who have provoked him. --Robdurbar 07:06, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Point of this Page?
What's the point of this page - is anything actually going to come of it? Gsd2000 22:12, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Consensus building :) Crimsone 01:46, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Requests for comment (RfC) is the open part of the dispute resolution process, by which editors can seek broad input regarding disputes over article content, user conduct, and Wikipedia policy and guidelines. That's what is happening. Daniel.Bryant 02:35, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * But what is going to come of it? We're not resolving a dispute here.  If we were, El Gringo would be involved.  Gsd2000 09:04, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Well if E-Gringo is going to ignore it then there's not really much that this page can do. HOWEVER, it does do the following:


 * It provides a serious note to him that users have found his actions basicially unaceptable. If he tones down his behaviour as a result of it, then it has suceeded.
 * One of the problems surrounding conflicts between Irish/British editors is that it is often 'the same old faces' on both 'sides' (though I hate to think of it as such). This page will hopefully indicate to ElG that those who are unhappy about his edits are not just 'us people' from the UK, but that outsiders endorse our view that his personal attacks - not his opinion or wikipedia contributions - is a problem
 * If El Gringo were to continue to make personal attacks, or resume (he hasn't edited wikipedia since September 7th), then it allows users to take more serious steps in ensuring that he stops such edits.

--Robdurbar 18:29, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment, same old faces was my original comment. I wasn't alluding to you Robdurbar, as you have always been even in your editing.  Unfortunately it was an off the cuff remark that was initially directed at an other editor in particular, and I should have put more thought into my edit. I hope no offense has been caused. MelForbes 13:00, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you; I sometimes feel as if all edits from British editors are bracketed into one category as 'useless' by some Irish editors, though I know and appreciate that that isnt the case; I've enjoyed working with you Mel. --Robdurbar 20:30, 25 September 2006 (UTC)