Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Tran Van Ba

Comments moved from Village pump
There is a new user, Tran Van Ba, who appears to have taken up the banner of User:Celindgren to promote the Vietnamese Constitutional Monarchist League and is writing articles on various members and associates of the Vietnamese imperial family, including himself. Like Celindgren, he is apparently employed by the VCML. Unlike Celindgren, he's not engaging in link-spamming, but his contributions are rather POV, not to mention in serious need of copyediting. I mention this here instead of in WP:RFC because I really have no desire to argue with Mr. Tran, whose knowledge may well be useful here; but I think involvement in these articles by others with knowledge of the subject matter would be helpful, and might meet with better response than further edits by me (since I have a previous history of disagreements with Celindgren, who stopped editing here shortly before Tran Van Ba showed up). &#8592;Hob 18:52, 2004 Sep 9 (UTC)

Much more serious allegations about "Tran Van Ba"
I don't know where to put this, but it doesn't seem to belong in the main RFC article. It is a rather strange story which, if true, would not only be grounds for permanently blocking "Tran Van Ba", "Celindgren", and 198.26.120.13, but also might conceivably involve Wikipedia in a legal dispute involving identity theft - which is why I'm now posting it here after much hesitation.

Background: Last month several other editors and I had to revert a lot of vandalism by User:Celindgren - POV edits and linkspamming in virtually every Vietnam-related article. Anonymous user 198.26.120.13 was making similar edits at the same time. Celindgren's user page identified him as Dr. C. E. Magnus Lindgren, a history professor at American Military University.

In response to my comments on Celindgren's talk page, I got a private E-mail on August 16 (clarification: it was sent via the Wikipedia "E-mail this user" feature), with Dr. Lindgren's return E-mail address and signed "Dr. C. E. Magnus Lindgren". It was a defense of the edits in question, but very hard to understand and written in oddly poor English for an American Ph.D.; in fact the writing style strongly resembled that of "Tran Van Ba" and 198.26.120.13. I replied on Celindgren's talk page, asking him to spell out his responses there rather than in private E-mail. The talk page was immediately deleted. There were no further edits by Celindgren, and User:Tran Van Ba began his editing career shortly thereafter.

At the time, noting that both Dr. Lindgren and Tran Van Ba are apparently associated with the Vietnamese Constitutional Monarchist League, I guessed that perhaps Dr. Lindgren had been letting Mr. Tran use his computer while still logged into Wikipedia under his own name. In fact there had been an early edit by Celindgren (a comment on Help desk) that looked like a legitimate message from a scholar, before all the vandalism started.

New allegations: Today, as I was puzzled and frustrated by "Tran Van Ba"'s behavior and thought it might just be a sign that he does not understand what Wikipedia is for, I wrote a private E-mail to Dr. Lindgren. I said that if he currently had any professional association with Mr. Tran, he might want to talk to him about this behavior which tends not to put the V.C.M.L. in a good light; I suggested that he might be unaware of some of the edits that were being made from his computer. I cc'd this message to the E-mail given by "Tran Van Ba" on the V.C.M.L. website.

I just received a response from Dr. Lindgren; I'm waiting for his permission to post it in full. In summary, he states that "Tran Van Ba" is really a different person (whom he names), an employee of the V.C.M.L. who has been impersonating both Dr. Lindgren and the real Tran Van Ba for several months on various websites. Dr Lindgren states that this has caused harm to his reputation and forced him to resign his official position with the V.C.M.L., and that he may be pursuing legal action against this person. &#8592;Hob 07:29, 2004 Sep 13 (UTC)

Assistance to table (Tran Van Ba)
I was contact by Tran Van Ba concerning the Biographies I had sent to him.

He told me that the articles were not being acceptable because of non-neutral.

He had thought that Asian was not wanted and felt that it was not fair, and I can see that the reasons was that he was just not aware of what non-neutral means and the truth is two different aspects.

I have been reading the feedback and I agree that there was a language barrier and I will assist in fixing the biographies pertaining to his additions to Wikipedia. Jimmyvanthach Jimmyvanthach


 * Well, since he has now posted his own name here, I guess I can go ahead and say that Van Thach is the person Dr. Lindgren has accused (by name) of impersonating him and Tran Van Ba. If that is true, Van Thach is not only using multiple false identities on Wikipedia, but has sent me an E-mail falsely claiming to be Dr. Lindgren as described above. Obviously, this is an entirely different issue than the neutrality/language question Van Thach is responding to here. I would appreciate some outside comment on this matter as soon as possible.  &#8592;Hob 17:31, 2004 Sep 13 (UTC)


 * Also, I know I've risked personalizing this dispute by involving myself in a side E-mail discussion, but I'd like to make it clear that at no point did I claim to speak for Wikipedia in any official capacity. In fact, my last E-mail to Lindgren and Tran began with the words "I'm writing to you as a volunteer editor on Wikipedia, not speaking in any official capacity, simply in hopes of clearing up some difficulties." Van Thach is now going around on talk pages and E-mail describing me as a "Wikipedia representative", which is not appropriate.  &#8592;Hob 17:34, 2004 Sep 13 (UTC)

I have been asked to help
Tran Van Ba had sent me a email concerning the biographies I sent him were not neutral.

I had written them since he asked me, and sent them to his email.

He wrote me a email today requesting that I sign on to fix the question of them not being neutral since of the language barrier.

I have also sent a copy of this email to User:Hob and I can post it here if requested.

I will fix Tran Van Ba's biography and also I have read the neutral terms and am aware why the articles that I sent to Tran Van Ba and he posted was not acceptable by the guidelines. Jimmyvanthach Jimmyvanthach


 * If I understand correctly, Jimmyvanthach is saying that he is the author of the problematic text posted by Tran Van Ba - either all of it, or a significant part of it. That is an odd statement to make, because (a) it implies that Tran Van Ba had no understanding of Wikipedia and was simply pasting in text while ignoring repeated complaints from other editors, which is hardly a good defense of his behavior; (b) as is documented in the Evidence section of this complaint, many of the disputed biographies were copied verbatim from other websites, clearly not written by Jimmyvanthach. In any case, I don't know why Tran Van Ba can't speak for himself in this forum, unless he (like "Celindgren") is going to stop editing now. And if he does not speak English well enough to understand Wikipedia guidelines (despite the verbose and sometimes abusive comments he has posted to others), then he probably should stop editing until this changes.  &#8592;Hob 23:39, 2004 Sep 13 (UTC)


 * Also, I should point out that it is trivially easy for a sysop to determine whether "Tran Van Ba", "Jimmyvanthach", and "Celindgren" are all operating from the same IP address. If Jimmyvanthach was really E-mailing text to Tran Van Ba for him to post, then obviously they would not have the same IP address.


 * I also don't know why Van Thach finds it necessary to send me multiple private E-mails, since I am clearly present on this discussion page. I have asked him to stop.  &#8592;Hob 23:43, 2004 Sep 13 (UTC)

email sent to all parties
I had recieve email from user with intials E.B and I replied to him, he was concerned of the postings was me, which I admitted, in the return email to him and I C.C. to Dr. Lindgren and also to Van Thach, that is what I did in reply to him, for his answer. Tran Van Ba 00:09, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

UseNet data on these folk
Those interested in Tran Van Ba and the recent "revival" of the Order of the Dragon should read the correspondance on the [alt.talk.royalty] group. It would seem that Wikipedia is once again being used to present questionable claims as if they were unquestioned, and as a mean of publicising those claims. Also probably of interest will be the posts from the same group regarding Carl Lindgren - Nunh-huh 23:00, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Yes, these are important

Do we want to establish contact with these people. It seems quite interesting in a sort of micronation-esque way, and may be worth documenting, somewhere. But we must determine the truth. Dunc_Harris|&#9786; 23:06, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure of the relevance of these newsgroup links, except as examples of typical newsgroup sniping in a field that, like most fields on the Net, is prone to attract some unusual personalities. Whether C.E. Lindgren or Tran Van Ba have exaggerated their résumés is irrelevant to Wikipedia. OK, I see the relevance of the links - they are questioning whether organizations such as the "Imperial Family Overseas Council" have any legitimate connection to the former monarchy as they claim. Well, articles about any subject, including Vietnam and these various expatriate royalist groups, should be subject to fact-checking and NPOV enforcement no matter who contributed to them - so that is independent of the current dispute. But if there is a person publicly assuming the identities of other real people, and using multiple accounts and anonymous edits to evade honest discussion with other Wikipedians, that person should probably be blocked. &#8592;Hob 23:31, 2004 Sep 13 (UTC)

Acceptance of Finding
I have read finding of the mediator of the issue. I had also recieved a email from memeber here by initial E.B. That wanted to know if I was posting biographies here. I emailed E.B. back and assured them that it was me, and that my assistant and prepared the document for me, so I can post. I am aware that Autobiography is not allowed, but on history standpoint of the Order of Dragon it can be maintain by other user. There is language barrier of some of the guidlines that I am not aware and have asked jimmy van thach to assist. So there is not any issue of identity. E.B. is aware of this and I had corbon copy to him in email. Tran Van Ba 23:41, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC) ~


 * "E.B." is me - User:Hob. The above description of my E-mail is inaccurate; I was asking C.E. Lindgren whether the edits made under his name were in fact his, and he told me that they were not. As I said above, I don't think "language barrier" is an adequate explanation for the long list of odd behavior documented in this complaint. Why did you ignore and/or argue with so many other editors who questioned your behavior, until this Request for Comment page was posted?  &#8592;Hob 00:04, 2004 Sep 14 (UTC)


 * Well that is the email I recieved in CC to me concerning Tran Van Ba contacting me to fix the documents to be nuetral that is why I came on today. User Bob, I myself understand the situation and your wishes so I can contact you here, and comply with the rules and regulations. Jimmyvanthach 00:22, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Jimmyvanthach: my question above was directed to Tran Van Ba, not to you. I was asking him to explain his behavior, which has nothing to do with who wrote the problematic text.


 * Tran Van Ba: The behavior I am talking about is listed under Evidence of disputed behavior and Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute. The best place for you to answer those specific points would be on that page, under Response - not on this page.


 * Also, I don't know who this "mediator" is that you're referring to. There is no mediator at present. Other editors will review this discussion and recommend an action, but not yet. I'm just a person gathering evidence, which any editor may do.  &#8592;Hob 00:31, 2004 Sep 14 (UTC)

Felt of NON-Fairness
I was not asked quesitions of one person but of many of my posting I post and it was not in a light that I felt was fair. It was the fact I was unaware of the guidlines and mis-understood the process, of which I am aware, I have read and understand the mediator part was not a trial to convict but mediator. I feel that what user said before people need to cool down is correct and I jump to conclusion, I am aware of it now. Tran Van Ba 00:15, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

claim of impersonation
This is getting ridiculously convoluted, and I don't have any interest in pursuing details of who E-mailed what to who - it is irrelevant to the questions of (a) whether whoever is writing the stuff can show understanding of Wikipedia guidelines and work with other editors, and (b) whether someone is using multiple identities and anonymous IPs to confuse people. I did not create these issues and I am not responsible for their final resolution. I certainly have no interest in being involved in this matter in any way outside of Wikipedia.

But, just so you all can see what the fuss is about, here is the E-mail I received from Dr. Lindgren (who has raised no objection to me posting it here). (This message was sent directly, rather than through the Wikipedia "E-mail this user" command; I have looked at the mail headers and believe that it did come from Lindgren's account.)  &#8592;Hob 00:21, 2004 Sep 14 (UTC)


 * The problematic behavior is by a Mr. Van Thach (now called Mr Van Thach)  (E-mail address removed)


 * Several months ago he started using my e-mail address and posting hundreds of posts and links ALL over the Internet using my name as Dr. C. E. Magnus Lindgren. I spoke to Prince Buu Chanh for whom Van works and asked Van personally to stop. He did not. Finally about a month ago his behaviour came so bad that I was personally attacked on Google (rec.heraldry and alt.talk.royalty) Still he would NOT stop. My name and academic standing were severely harmed. In fact I was so severely attacked that I was forced to step down from my position with Prince Buu Chanh as Chancellor which I had held for 8 months. I now serve only as an independent advisor.


 * The individual (Van) was NEVER corrected so he continues his destructive behaviour. When I left, I warned Col Tran Van Ba is the most severe tone that Van would destroy his standing by forging his name all over the Internet. It seems this has been done. Mr Van Thach who is supposed to be a law student in New York does not know the law as he continues to steal people's identity. He also stole people's identity in Australia last month and again I was attacked and corrected for my actions. I HAD NOT PART of this activity. He has now stolen my university e-mail address and is posting it all over the Internet. He is doing grave harm to the Vietnamese cause and to the Prince. I have been forced to see an attorney over this issue.


 * Dr. C. E. Magnus Lindgren

the mystery E-mail
...I just realized that I never posted the original suspicious E-mail that I received in August. Here it is below. C.E. Magnus Lindgren has denied that he wrote this, and it bears no resemblance to his writing style. It was sent through the Wikipedia E-mail forwarding service, by whoever was using the "Celindgren" account. The bit about Robert McNamara is a reference to my complaint about inserting an external link to the V.C.M.L. into the Robert McNamara article - an example of "Celindgren"'s extraordinary dedication to publicizing that organization. In my opinion, none of this is remotely justifiable by Jimmyvanthach's "Tran Van Ba was just posting some biographies I wrote" excuse. &#8592;Hob 16:37, 2004 Sep 30 (UTC)


 * Hello,


 * The Vietnamese Constitutional Monarchist League is related to Cao Dai because the Cao Dai religious support Prince Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh as the Regent of the Imperial Nguyen Dynasty of Vietnam. Please see link for reference: HIH Prince Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh picture of him with Cao Dai religious leaders in California and Vietnamese Americans supporters:


 * Link 1: http://www.thienlybuutoa.org/Uni/SinhHoat/10-2003B.htm


 * Also see religious Support: http://users.panola.com/vietnam/religiouscouncil.html


 * Also concerning South Vietnam Prince Regent Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh served within the South Vietnamese Government, he is a Former Official and his new organization The Vietnamese Monarchist League has members of the from that former government of South Vietnam.


 * Please read his bio: concerning Prince Regent Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh’s jobs within the South Vietnamese Government: http://www.orderofthedragon.homestead.com/biographiesA.html


 * Link 2: Former Members of the government of South Vietnam are now members of The Vietnamese Monarchist League.


 * Furthermore Mr. McNamara as a member of the government of Vietnam Prince Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh was part of the welcoming committee and was present for meeting with the former Secretary of Defense when he visited South Vietnam.


 * Sir, all of my additions have relevance to the issues of Vietnam and from the past present and to the future as Prince Regent Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh as a Nationalist Leader for the Vietnamese People. Thank you, Dr. C.E. Magnus Lindgren

answer to Dr. C. E. Magnus Lindgren
I am not a law student, I have already graduated law school in 2002 to a ABA approved school.

The statements you have made is not appropriate and therefore if you want to talk further on this issue you can contact me by phone.

I have all the emails you sent me and Tran Van Ba and we can go over this point by point. Jimmyvanthach 00:31, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * If you want to answer C. E. Magnus Lindgren, his contact information is quite public. He is not, as far as I know, reading this discussion page. However, the people who are reading this page have good reasons to be concerned with these claims, and we have seen no response from you on this point.  &#8592;Hob 16:37, 2004 Sep 30 (UTC)

Please remove my email and name
I understand you recieve confirmation from Dr.Lindgren but you never recieve confirmation to use my name and my email address. Please remove it at once. USER HOB E.B. thank you Jimmyvanthach 00:36, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Excuse me? You do not have any legal right to make such a demand, especially since you have already posted your name, and presumably you have provided your E-mail address when you signed onto Wikipedia. But it's irrelevant, so I'll remove it.  &#8592;Hob 01:26, 2004 Sep 14 (UTC)

Sockpuppets
What IPs are User:Tran Van Ba and User:Jimmyvanthach editing from? I think they're the same, they both appear to write in similar styles and are never around at the same time. Dunc_Harris|&#9786; 11:27, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Seemed pretty obvious to me when vanthach showed up out of nowhere to defend everything Tran had done. -- Cyrius|&#9998; 04:41, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

User:216.183.37.82
User:216.183.37.82 user talk:216.183.37.82 special:contributions/216.183.37.82 has just come in with some edits and he thinks this is all wrong. Dunc_Harris|&#9786; 10:43, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)