Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/The Man Who Would Be Queen (term v phenomenon)

General Terminology "Theory" and "Phenomena Vs. Terminology"
I created this section to collect together all of the debate over terminology and it's use here on wikipedia. The use of the word theory to describe feminine essence, and Blanchard's theory. --Hfarmer (talk) 14:18, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

The word theory
First of all What does the dictionary say?

"theory" Merriam Webster Online.


 * Main Entry:
 * the·o·ry [javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?theory01.wav=theory') [[Image:audio.gif|Listen to the pronunciation of theory]]]


 * Pronunciation:
 * \ˈthē-ə-rē, ˈthir-ē\


 * Function:
 * noun


 * Inflected Form(s):
 * plural the·o·ries


 * Etymology:
 * Late Latin theoria, from Greek theōria, from theōrein


 * Date:
 * 1592


 * 1) the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another
 * 2) abstract thought : speculation
 * 3) the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art 
 * 4) a) a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action  b.) an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances —often used in the phrase in theory
 * 5) a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena 
 * 6) a.)a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b.) an unproved assumption : conjecture c: a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject 

A problem that has plagued this debate, and haunted this controversy is the difference between the way scientist use the word theory, and the way the lay person understands the word theory. The context in which most non-scientist have thought about this matter is likely that of either biology and evolution, or perhaps Einstein's Special theory of relativity, or Newton's "laws" (which Einstein demonstrated are not unbreakable because his theory breaks them at high velocities). ''What they do not realize in those cases is that those theories are the only ones that have any credible evidence to back them up at all. Thus those theories are, at the introductory level of science that one get's as an undergraduate, non-major, treated as practical fact.''

However as one sees from the definition given in the dictionary cited above the word theory does not connote something as strong as a universally accepted and unquestioned fact of science. It does not mean that at all. A theory is merely a system of ideas, a set of principles which is plausible, and scientifically acceptable (tesable, faslifiable), which is offered to explain phenomena.

Where Jokestress and those who agree with her make the claim that Blanchard's ideas are not a theory is by saying either it is just a taxonomy, or a behavioral model, or that it is not testable and falsifiable. Or the posit the idea of brain sex and cite Zhou's study, which as I mentioned elsewhere on this page has basically be falsified by the observations reported in. Looking at the above definition even a "mere" taxonomy and behavioral model can meet the definition of a theory. As for testability and falsifiability they present narratives of successful transwomen. Which are not scientific evidence. However when this has been tested the scientifically gathered data "largely supported the idea that non-homosexual and homosexual transsexuals followed different developmental path's." The greatest proof that the word theory applies to Blanchard's ideas is that they were be subjected to scientific test, and predict the outcome of that test with reasonable precision and accuracy.

To deny that one has to posit that there does indeed exist some diabolical world spanning conspiracy of sexologist who would falsify data to back up Blanchard. The burden for proving that is on those who would make such a claim.

Though as I have noted, and added to the article on homosexual transsexuality there are sexologist who have questioned the terminology choosen by Blanchard and others. But that is not enough to say that a theory is therefore false, or fringe.

As for the titleing of "feminie essence theory"...I think a better title could be found, and an article that addresses the notion of brain sex and transsexual self concept could be written in a better way. However calling that a theory is looking at the definition above just barely proper. In the sense that the feminine essence is a way of thinking or "abstract thought", speculation.

Term Vs. Phenomena
Again I think that having the definitions right in front of us would be useful and enlightening.--Hfarmer (talk) 14:30, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

--Hfarmer (talk) 14:15, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Term From Websters Online dictionary.


 * Main Entry:
 * 1term [javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?term0001.wav=term') [[Image:audio.gif|Listen to the pronunciation of 1term]]]


 * Pronunciation:
 * \ˈtərm\


 * Function:
 * noun


 * Etymology:
 * Middle English terme, from Anglo-French, from Latin terminus boundary marker, limit; akin to Greek termōn boundary, end, Sanskrit tarman top of a post


 * Date:
 * 13th century

— in terms of : with respect to or in relation to   — on one's own terms : in accordance with one's wishes : in one's own way    --Hfarmer (talk) 14:41, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) a.) end, termination ; also ':' a point in time assigned to something (as a payment) b.) the time at which a pregnancy of normal length terminates 
 * 2) a.) a limited or definite extent of time ; especially ': the time for which something lasts : duration, tenure   b.) the whole period for which an estate is granted ; also ': the estate or interest held by one for a term c.) the time during which a court is in session
 * 3) plural provisions that determine the nature and scope of an agreement : conditions  
 * 4) a.) a word or expression that has a precise meaning in some uses or is peculiar to a science, art, profession, or subject  b.)plural ':' expression of a specified kind 
 * 5) a.) a unitary or compound expression connected with another by a plus or minus sign b.) an element of a fraction or proportion or of a series or sequence
 * 6) plural a.) mutual relationship : footing  b.) agreement, concord  c.) a state of acceptance or understanding <came to terms with the failure of his marriage>
 * 7) any of the three substantive elements of a syllogism
 * 8)  quadrangular pillar often tapering downward and adorned on the top with the figure of a head or the upper part of the body
 * 9) v division in a school year during which instruction is regularly given to students

There is also the use of the word as a transative verb. This may be the more relevant definition. Term (transative verb)


 * Main Entry:
 * 2term


 * Function:
 * transitive verb


 * Date:
 * circa 1557



Phenomenon by way of Websters dictionary online.


 * Main Entry:
 * phe·nom·e·non [javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?phenom14.wav=phenomenon') [[Image:audio.gif|Listen to the pronunciation of phenomenon]]]


 * Pronunciation:
 * \fi-ˈnä-mə-ˌnän, -nən\


 * Function:
 * noun


 * Inflected Form(s):
 * plural phe·nom·e·na [javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?phenom15.wav=phenomena') [[Image:audio.gif|Listen to the pronunciation of phenomena]]] \-nə, -ˌnä\  or phe·nom·e·nons


 * Etymology:
 * Late Latin phaenomenon, from Greek phainomenon, from neuter of phainomenos, present participle of phainesthai to appear, middle voice of phainein to show — more at fancy


 * Date:
 * 1605

--Hfarmer (talk) 14:51, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) plural phenomena ':' an observable fact or event
 * 2) plural phenomena a.) an object or aspect known through the senses rather than by thought or intuition b.) a temporal or spatiotemporal object of sensory experience as distinguished from a noumenon c.) a fact or event of scientific interest susceptible to scientific description and explanation
 * 3) a.) a rare or significant fact or event b.)plural phenomenons ':' an exceptional, unusual, or abnormal person, thing, or occurrence


 * Main Entry:
 * trans·sex·u·al


 * Variant(s):
 * also tran·sex·u·al \(ˈ)tran(t)s-ˈsek-sh(-ə)-wəl, -ˈsek-shəl\ [javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?transs01.wav=transexual') [[Image:audio.gif|Listen to the pronunciation of transexual]]]


 * Function:
 * noun

--Hfarmer (talk) 16:39, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I used to argue with jokestress that in particular "homosexual transsexual" was a phenomena not a term. She would argue that the term was something made up and only used by a small clique of sexologist at a clinic in Canada. I now see that it was wrong headed to argue about which this was.

The facts of the case and the common definitions as given above and found in a widely accepted dictionary lead to the conclusion that the articles Homosexual Transsexual and Autogynephilia are bout BOTH a term "a word or expression that has a precise meaning in some uses or is peculiar to a science, art, profession, or subject " or "a word or expression that has a precise meaning in some uses or is peculiar to a science, art, profession, or subject " "to apply a term to : call, name" and a phenomena "an observable fact or event".

It is an observeable fact that male to female transsexuals who for all the world knew where effeminate homosexual males prior to transition to female life exist. The terms used to describe them have been as has been used in immigration law "gay male with female sexual identity" which the court would latter affirm meant transsexual (in this link it is pointed out that the court opined that if it weren't for a criminal conviction, the person in this case would have simply qualified under the terms of the first one I cited)  As well as the term "homosexual transsexual" as used by Blanchard, Kurt Freund,  Harry Benjamin, Leavitt, Berger, Zucker, Green, Mc Farlane, Smith, van Goozen, and Cohen-Kettenis. All of them have recorded the scientific observations of people described as "homosexual transsexuals".

As for the historical and cross cultural examples. Green had written in an appendix of the transsexual phenomenon of cross cultural and historical examples of transsexuality. In Benjamin's book only transsexuals who were homosexual as males were considered true transsexuals, and it is in a appendix to Benjamin's book that green makes wrote of cross cultural examples of transsexuality. Therefore it is a very elementary connection to say he wrote about homosexual transsexuality.

To the court case Jokestress will point out a passage where in Hernandez-montiel ruling the judge wrote that they will not consider weather or not montiel was a transsexuals constitute a particular social group. She has pointed out this same point again and again and always in a certain way. i.e. She would quote "the case is not about whether transsexuals constitute a particular social group." Leaving out the context, something which Cantor has accused her of. Here is a good example of that. The full context, the whole paragraph that appears in

In addition to being a gay man with a female sexual identity, Geovanni's brief states that he "may be considered a transsexual." A transsexual is "a person who is genetically and physically a member of one sex but has a deep-seated psychological conviction that he or she belongs, or ought to belong, to the opposite sex, a conviction which may in some cases result in the individual's decision to undergo surgery in order to physically modify his or her sex organs to resemble those of the opposite sex." Deborah Tussey, Transvestism or Transsexualism of Spouse as Justifying Divorce, 82 A.L.R. 3d n. 2 (2000); see Farmer v. Haas, 990 F.2d 319, 320 (7th Cir. 1993) (Posner, J.) ("The disjunction between sexual identity and sexual organs is a source of acute psychological suffering that can, in some cases anyway, be cured or at least alleviated by sex reassignment -- the complex of procedures loosely referred to as `a sex-changeoperation.' "). We need not consider in this case whether transsexuals con- stitute a particular social group. (page 16)

This makes it clear that Hernandez-Montiel think of herself as a transsexual. A latter case makes it clear that the term gay men with female sexual identities was used in reference to transsexuals.Analysis of Morales V. Gonzales by an immigrants rights organizeation which is a reliable secondary source on this matter. The news paper article I first cited to back this up "Border Crossers" makes it clear by how it describes the people in question that they are transsexual  They are all people who "person(s) who psychologically identifies with the opposite sex and may seek to live as a member of this sex especially by undergoing surgery and hormone therapy to obtain the necessary physical appearance (as by changing the external sex organs)." The people therein are by definition transsexuals. I have both a secondary source writing about the same people that backs that up and importantly reading the definition what the secondary source says plainly makes sense.

Writing about this as a phenomena also offers us a broader range of criticisms. Such as that by Harry Benjamin. Which does not specifically as "homosexual transsexual" but addresses the question "is the transsexual homosexual?".

The alternative I see offered by jokestress is to restrict to sources which use the verbatim term homosexual transsexual and ignore the phenomena that was being written about. That of transsexuals who would have been described simply as homosexual males prior to transition. I see the value in writing of this as a term as well and in highlighting the negatives of the use of this terminology. That is why In every iteration of the article homosexual transsexual from the first to the last has included some criticism of the terminology.--Hfarmer (talk) 16:39, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Proposed Compromise on term V. Pehnomena
I have offerd this a few times on this page. Can We discuss this at some point.

'''The articles homosexual transsexual and Autogynephilia are about both terms and phenomena. Terms "names" are defined to refer to phenomena "observeable facts". Thus it makes perfect sense to write about these as BOTH terms and the phenomena the terms refer to.'''--Hfarmer (talk) 16:39, 4 February 2009 (UTC)