Wikipedia talk:Requests for undeletion/Archive 1

Proposed
On WT:AFD I've posted a proposal to treat AFDs with little or no discussion as expired prods. It's not going very well at the moment but part of that discussion was an idea for a new wikiproject called "Requests for undeletion". Even if my prod idea fails, I'd like this part of the proposal be discussed separately. This would be an easy way for editors to request the undeletion of articles deleted under the following criteria...

1. Proposed deletion

2. CSD G7 (rationale)

3. Some CSD G6 cases (db-afd being one obvious exclusion)

4. My proposal on WT:AFD if it passes.

It would work similar to requests for permissions with the reviewing admin responding to a request with ✅ or ❌.

I believe this will be an easy and obvious way to request the undeletion of an article that was deleted under uncontroversial circumstances and will slightly lighten the load on deletion review where currently most PRODS are contested. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 20:49, 26 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't really see the need. If a person is willing to work on an article to get it up to snuff, many admins will undelete artilces that were deleted via Speedy/Prod just by asking.  They will look at the article and determine if it should be undeleted or not.  They would also determine if it should be put into the main space or user space.  Heck, they might even provide the material from an AfD in the user space or via email.--- I'm Spartacus!  NO! I'm Spartacus! 22:29, 26 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Although there is already a mechanism, I can see merit in this new idea, as many who lose an article to deletion would not know what to do next. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:22, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the more that I think about this, the more I start to think that this might not be a bad idea after all. Yes, there are admins who already do that, but finding them might be hard and they are not always available.  Somebody could make the request to me, and it might be hours (or even days) before I log in.--- I'm Spartacus!  NO! I'm Spartacus! 00:08, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I like this, it would really clear out the trivial matters from Deletion review. Though I am certainly willing to simply undelete in the cases mentioned, there are so many people at Wikipedia who are for one reason or another scared of admins. Fixing that will be a little difficult, so this would be a good way to go that would solve a little of the problem. I would not call it a Wikproject exactly, just a process board.   DGG (talk) 02:33, 27 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Just ask, most admins will undelete a page to be improved if a good faith request is made. If there is controversy then a consensus at DRV can result in an article being undeleted. We could have a special place to ask for this, but I fear that will result in more process. Chillum  03:14, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Could just ask at Category talk:Wikipedia administrators who will provide copies of deleted articles, I try to keep an eye on that page for stray requests. In any case, I would be happy to participate in this new venture to help new users retrieve wayward content. –xeno talk 05:48, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess, I just lied on my talk page ;-) Anyways, Chillum, my first reaction was the same as yours, just ask.  Most admins will do it, but the more I think about it the more I think a project or subpage someplace would be better.  It would give a place where people can go and have multiple admins' undeleting articles for users.  Rather than hoping a single admin is still online and will grant the request, but putting it elsewhere, you might have 2-5 admins checking in any given hour.--- I'm Spartacus!  NO! I'm Spartacus! 07:26, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Suggested by User:Ron Ritzman at WT:Deletion process (permlink) as an easier way to retrieve deleted content. I've drafted this process page for community review. –xeno talk 13:33, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Discussion
Somehow I don't really like WP:RFUD so I created WP:REFUND. Hijacking WP:UNDELETE sounds like a plan. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 14:09, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yea, RFUD too close to FUD. Refund is hilarious. We're refunding the content =) –xeno talk 14:41, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * RFUD could work pretty well: reverting (deletion caused by) FUD... :) Rd232 talk 03:18, 2 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I support this "project" or whatever you want to call it - really I can see no reason against making it easier for people to get stuff undeleted that was deleted through PROD, etc. Also I support the "hijacking" of WP:UNDELETE meantioned above. --ThaddeusB (talk) 16:11, 27 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Support but I'd also like to see this be a place where userification of bad (but not defamatory or copyvio) articles is done. That is, just because someone asks for something back for improvement, that doesn't mean putting it back into mainspace straightaway is the right thing to do.  Userification is probably especially appropriate for AfD'ed articles subject to G4 if they go back the same place. Jclemens (talk) 16:16, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep, I tried to explicitly write that in the second paragraph, feel free to tweak if it was unclear. –xeno talk 16:22, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Support because there is no reason not to. A centralized discussion page for easy-non controversial restorations is a decent idea.  Syn  ergy 16:28, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * yeah, what Jclemens said. I've watch listed, and can check in to help.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  18:38, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Very strong support Deletion review will be much better with this diverted away from it. And it will hopefully encourage requests, as it's much less involved. I suggest expanding the line about what of things deleted under CSD qualifies. DGG (talk) 19:01, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm having trouble thinking of what other CSD criteria could be non-controversially restored, i.e. without tending towards wheel-warring. Perhaps "A7" if the user provides a solid assertion of notability with references? –xeno talk 20:05, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure about using this for A7s. I think that requires a consensus on whether or not importance or significance is "asserted" or not. That's best left to DRV. I think CSD G7s should be restorable for reasons I gave here unless the content fits another speedy category. Also, not all G6 cases should be restorable. is a G6 but it's used when an AFD is closed "delete" but the closing admin forgets to delete the article. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 23:31, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Our undeletion policy, before it was superceded by our deletion policy (ironic, yes?), used to allow for some A7 restorations and may also provide some other examples of possibly non-controversial undeletion. See the last revision before the merge was began. –xeno</b> <sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 13:05, 28 April 2009 (UTC) last night when I read it, I could've sworn it allowed for it, but I'm not seeing it this morning.


 * Yep, good idea. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 20:08, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Excellent idea I would propose these general guidelines for restoration:
 * If article was deleted by WP:PROD or WP:CSD: automatic restore to mainspace (providing it meets no other WP:CSD criteria)
 * If article was deleted under any of the WP:CSD criteria, or was deleted as the result of an WP:AFD, then content should be userfied providing it violates none of the WP:CSD or WP:CSD criteria
 * If article is not suitable for userfication, article may be e-mailed to user at admin discretion, except for WP:BLP violations, which should just be refused outright.
 * Thoughts?--Aervanath (talk) 05:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me, though I would include "& copyright violation" to "except for BLP vio". –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b> <sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 17:24, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Support My only concern is with the potential for confusion between here and DRV. Maybe bold the text explaining the difference? --Rschen7754 (T C) 08:14, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Question: Would this concern files (images), or just articles? If images are included, under what circumstances should a deleted image be discussed here, rather than at WP:DR? – Quadell (talk) 13:10, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I suspect you mean WP:DRV, not WP:DR. I would think that images would not be discussed here; we already have ImageUndeleteRequest.--Aervanath (talk) 15:05, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Strong Support per common sense. — Ched : <font style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#0000fa;"> ? 17:23, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Have you considered listing this at WP:CENT? — Ched : <font style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#0000fa;"> ? 18:24, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I've never done that before... Someone please do the needful. ✅ –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b> <sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 22:01, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Support as well as a reasonable alternative and compliment to DRV. Best, --A NobodyMy talk 22:00, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I think this is a good idea. DRV is a good venue for contesting deletions, but let's all be honest.  DRV is a sun of a gun to navigate.  Creating a proper deletion review itself is a complex process that newcomers mess up more often than they do properly.  I see DRV (rightly or wrongly) as a good location for regular editors to correct bad closings.  It does not function well as a means for new editors to effectively contest deletions that they disagree with (note that this isn't strictly the purpose of DRV).  I worry that we will end up with a dizzying number of projects/processes: "Go to WP:AFD to discuss the deletion of an article, AFC if you want help creating one, DRV is you feel the deletion process failed, RFU if you want a deletion reversed...", but this worry isn't strong enough to merit pushing back against a project as helpful as this.  Also, I note that new users are hesitant to ask admins directly about restoring uncontested prods or CSD decisions, regardless of the merits.  For some new users, there is an 'aura' around admins (good or bad) which makes direct communication an unattainable goal.  A project like this will sidestep that issue as well. Protonk (talk) 22:11, 28 April 2009 (UTC) Copied here from WT:DELPRO
 * Thanks for copying this over, Xeno! Protonk (talk) 22:45, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * No worries =) –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b> <sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 22:48, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Conditional support Seems sensible and helpful, especially for less experienced editors who don't know any admins. CSD G7 should be the only CSD category this effects though - CSD G6 should be out of scope as such requests should go to the deleting admin in the first instance. Nick-D (talk) 08:13, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Gotcha covered: see Requests_for_undeletion.--Aervanath (talk) 16:25, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds reasonable. I would've thought DRV would do the trick, personally, but if this is easier for admins to watch, and easier for users to use, that sounds good on all fronts. I am a bit concerned about two things: (1) keeping the distinction between this page and DRV clear in practice and policy, and (2) advertising this page appropriately; I think both of those will come with time. – Luna Santin  (talk) 21:35, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Strong Support I have had to deal with very many people who created stuff, and wanted it back, but didn't know how to get it back. This will help in these situations tremendously.--Unionhawk Talk 19:50, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. Great idea. Makes obvious sense. We have centralised accountability and ease of use. What's to object to? And REFUND is such a wonderful name for it!  SilkTork  *YES! 19:09, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * tentative support It sounds good at first take, but there are some forseeable pitfalls which we would be wise to consider carefully before we implement this idea full time. First of all, this should not be a process to supplant or otherwise avoid WP:DRV and this processes should not be seen as the "good" parent compared to DRV for users seeking to overturn deletions.  Secondly, this should not be a place to overturn a properly closed (or even improperly closed) XFD discussion.  Users should be directed to DRV to ask for reviews of completed discussions.  This process should be kept narrow in scope, ideally for userfication of speedy deleted articles and stuff like that.  It looks like a good idea, but there are places where this could become a mess if not managed correctly.  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  02:51, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The limits you propose are exactly what is intended. If you can clarify the page to emphasize that, then please help us do it.--Aervanath (talk) 11:36, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Support this eminently sensible measure.— S Marshall  Talk / Cont  08:49, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Support. Fine idea. As per Jayron32, though, this needs to be managed well. Oldlaptop321 (talk) 21:46, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Support - Good idea. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 20:19, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Support Seems like a great solution that I had never even considered. Brilliant. <font face="times new roman"> hmwith τ   09:58, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Changes in the proposal phase
I've just started this new heading for folks to hash out (maybe under separate lvl 3 headings) possible changes, big or small, to the project/process itself while it is still being proposed. I don't think just changes are bad, necessarily, I just figure it's best to keep them distinct from advocacy for or against the policy/process/project/emu under discussion. I'll check back in a few days w/ a few changes of my own, but hopefully people can populate this section before then! Protonk (talk) 22:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Administrator guidelines
The administrator guidelines should be tightened. It is incorrect to say that the Copyright policy and the Biographies of living persons policy are "non-binding" and just "recommended guidelines". They most definitely are binding, and any requests for such content must (not "should") be refused in all (not "almost all") cases. There are no exceptions here. This especially so since this process is purportedly aimed at handling solely non-controversial undeletions. Uncle G (talk) 10:32, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * When I typed those out, I hadn't meant to imply that the copyvio and BLP policies were non-binding; my meaning was that the administrator guidelines for this page were non-binding. If you feel that it's unclear, please clarify them.--Aervanath (talk) 14:58, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Nomination mechanisms
"Creating a proper deletion review itself is a complex process that newcomers mess up more often than they do properly.", says Protonk. And yet we have here pretty much exactly the same nomination mechanism, {{subst:drv2}}. How is this process less complex and easier for new users? There seems to be no difference between this and Deletion Review (where, to be honest, the traffic in contested Proposed Deletions is not exactly high or burdensome) in structure or mechanism, raising the question of if it is going to be exactly the same process with exactly the same mechanisms, for a procedure that isn't swamped with such requests in the first place, what is the point of splitting it off? Uncle G (talk) 10:32, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Because this page does more than contested prods. Also, DRV involves a lot more than just substing the template, which I've decided to use rather than creating a new one. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b> <sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 16:34, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * That doesn't answer the question, but avoids it with hairsplitting. The traffic in contested speedy deletions isn't particularly high at Deletion Review, either.  Indeed, the traffic at Deletion Review isn't particularly high at all.  In the past 13 days, for example, the mean rate has been just under 3 requests per day.  Moreover, Deletion Review does not involve "a lot more than just substing the template".  Barring courtesy user talk page notifications, that's exactly and all that it involves, as can be seen from Deletion review. So I repeat: If it is going to be exactly the same process (which it apparently is) with exactly the same mechanisms (which it is), for a procedure that isn't swamped with such requests in the first place (as can be seen), what is the point of splitting this off?  What benefit is there, here?  It is not in simplicitly of mechanism.  The mechanism is identical to, and as easy/difficult to use as, the existing Deletion Review one. Uncle G (talk) 22:41, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Hear, hear!!  Dloh  cierekim  22:48, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Looking at the entire DRV page as a whole it's clear that it might be overbearing to new users, perhaps explaining why the traffic in contested prods and speedies is low. I can understand why someone might say sod it and walk away. Perhaps some of the functions of DRV should be taken up here instead. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b> <sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk  23:12, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Then possibly we shouldn't be using the drv template, but something simpler. I'll try to whip up something even simpler and less intimidating when I have the time.--Aervanath (talk) 15:00, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with that. The reason I used the DRV template is because I didn't see the need to re-invent the wheel and figured we could just use the DRV template with only those two parameters. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b> <sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 15:09, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Addition of archives
For transparency purposes, and an archival necessity, I have taken the liberty in setting up an archiving system. It is set up in a similar fashion to MfD and is adjustable if need be. I don't mind any changes made, or even if its just discarded. I did however, feel there would be a need for this for displaying during this proposal, and also because we had the first request (also granted). Its ready for the first request to be added by the way.  Syn  ergy 01:34, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I meant to sort that out, but figured... can't someone else do it? =) Apparently, they can. As far as archiving, it might be helpful to leave items up for a while while the process settles in. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b> <sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 02:30, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * My knee-jerk reaction to archiving was that it wouldn't really be necessary here. I agree with xeno that we shouldn't start archiving the first requests from the page until the process has settled in. However, I think maintaining an archive won't be a lot of work, and will allow us to keep a record of how the page is being used, who's using it, what standards are being applied, etc. So in the end I think it would be a net benefit, and support the use of archiving for this process.--Aervanath (talk) 06:41, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Extended discussion regarding the first fulfillment

 * Sankarshan Das Adhikari

None given. Bindumadhava (talk) 16:30, 27 April 2009 (UTC)


 * ✅. Userfied to User:Bindumadhava/Sankarshan Das Adhikari. As this was deleted in an AFD, it will need to adequately address the concerns raised at the AFD (namely, lack of adequate reliable sourcing) before being re-inserted into the mainspace. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b> <sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 16:39, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I have to ask why this was done only nine minutes after the request, without any community input. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 01:15, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Because an undeletion request is granted at the discretion of the admin willing, without the need for this page. Best.  Syn  ergy 01:28, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed, this request would've also been immediately fulfilled if this individual had found their way to my (or over a hundred other admin's) talk page per CAT:UNDELETE. A few exceptions where an admin should decline would be copyright violations, or BLP violations, neither of which seem to apply here. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b> <sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 02:37, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I see. So AfD is now irrelevant?  As is DRV?  Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 04:22, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Neither are irrelevant. You will notice that the article was not restored to article space; it was userfied.  An AFD is to determine if something should be deleted from mainspace.  If an article can be improved so that it overcomes the concerns raised at the deleting AFD, then there is no reason not to userfy it to allow that improvement to take place.  This has always been part of Wikipedia practice; I added Category:Wikipedia administrators who will provide copies of deleted articles to my user page soon after gaining adminship, and there are currently a total of  admins who have added themselves to that category.  So this is just acting as a central clearinghouse for those requests, not an end-run around AfD or DRV; userfied articles still can't be sent back to mainspace until they've overcome the concerns of the Afd.--Aervanath (talk) 06:31, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * And a further comment on Category:Wikipedia administrators who will provide copies of deleted articles: I'm in that category, but I deny most of the requests I get because they're of the form "will you undelete my most awesome article about the hoax we made up in school last year? I need it to prove something important." Hopefully having a central forum for these requests will help prevent admin shopping, or at least give admins a way to know if admin shopping is going on.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  00:05, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Rather defeats the purpose of WP:CSD G11 as well as WP:SOAP, does it not? We just move the ads to userspace? Cheers,  Dloh  cierekim  18:12, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Nothing precludes MFD if they material doesn't get used in an encyclopedic fashion. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b> <sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 18:14, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * How long does the ad stay up before going through a second deletion process? Dloh  cierekim  18:16, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I would say if the user doesn't do anything useful with the article within a few weeks or a month, it should be G6'd. Frankly I don't share your concern about an article tucked away in the dark corner of userspace being blatant advertising. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b> <sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 18:20, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I would say that in the case of obvious G11 and G12 material, the reviewing admin can always say ❌ and/or email the article to the requester, same as if he asked on the admin's talk page. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 23:51, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I've copied the above here from the main page to encouage others to contribute so we can hash this out. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b> <sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 18:26, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, before anyone makes a comment here, reading USERFY would probably be helpful, if only so that we're all on the same page (pun not intended).-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  19:17, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * @Dlohcierekim: Please look at Requests_for_undeletion/Administrator_instructions, which I believe should assuage your concerns: anything falling under the general speedy criteria (G7 excepted) would still not be userfied. Cheers,--Aervanath (talk) 05:11, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * @Aervanath: And yet, the article in question was deleted as advertising. Cheers,  Dloh  cierekim  13:09, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * No, the article was nominated as possible advertising. The closing admin did not give a reason as to deletion. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b> <sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 13:16, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * To expand on that a bit more, the AfD nom was advertising and lack of notability. Advertising can be corrected through a rewrite, lack of notability can be corrected (if notability exists) through sourcing. If someone is willing to put in the work, that makes this a great candidate for improvement. Doesn't WP:AGF tell us to err on the side of believing that an effort will be made to improve this if someone says they will? (I might also point out that the sum total of the AfD discussion was one "per nom", with no indication anyone did so much as a gsearch for sources. Frankly, I would have relisted this one, but that's beside the point.) -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  22:01, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I support emailing copies of deleted articles to creators. I cannot put my finger on it, but to me it seems it seems to give the impression that users can revoke their contributions under the GFDL. We should make this clear. For example, User:Foo's article gets speedily deleted and then cries to REFUND, saying that he wants his article back, wants nothing to do with WP, and then no longer allows the content to be posted because he longer is allowing his work (which is against the GFDL) Does anyone understand what I'm trying to get at (that is, I don't know if I explained it well enough)? MuZemike 03:34, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * WP:Copyrights (which is policy) states that "you can never retract the GFDL license for copies of materials that you place here". So there's no way they can then refuse us the use of the material, even if the material was deleted: if the material is later undeleted and used in an article which meets our standards, then they have no legal way to prevent that. I hope that addresses your concerns.--Aervanath (talk) 07:21, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * what's more, if they have to ask for us to undelete it, it's likely we aren't going to be using it anyway =) –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b> <sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 13:07, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Doing this at WP:DRV
Why not just make a "speedy undeletion request" section over at DRV, similar to the speedy rename sections of WP:CFD? No sense scattering things all over the place. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 08:01, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I thought we already did this at WP:DRV, to be honest. It still tells you to contest prods there. I'd support a merge. Hiding T 10:31, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I'm not opposed to this process, but to be honest I don't really see the point either.  Lankiveil (speak to me) 11:19, 1 May 2009 (UTC).
 * I just thought we did it already, albeit informally at WP:DRV. People only ever get shot down if the content is copyvio or libel or something. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 11:46, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Try to look at the entire DRV page as from the eyes of a newbie. As I said above, it's probably overbearing to new users, perhaps explaining why the traffic in contested prods and speedies is low. I can understand why someone might say sod it and walk away. Perhaps some of the functions of DRV should be taken up here instead, leaving DRV for things that require extended community debate. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b> <sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 13:06, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, this page is providing a middle ground between CAT:UNDELETE, where individual admins can be informally asked to undelete stuff, and DRV, a more formal process where you have to figure out how the templates work before you can actually do anything. I would say contested PRODs could now be sent over here instead of at DRV, as well as userfication requests.  A lot of DRVs end up with userfication anyway, might as well send those over here to begin with.  Then DRV could be dedicated to the stuff that actually requires a discussion.  If admins here feel a request should go through DRV, then they can refer it there.--Aervanath (talk) 14:50, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Then just make a kind of informal speedy request section at DRV, put it up top, guide new users to it. Again, scattering all this stuff (especially given years of posts saying "If you wanted undeleted, go to DRV...") is just going to be confusing. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 15:28, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, there is something to be said for keeping this centralized at DRV, although I think xeno's point about DRV seeming intimidating is a good one. Maybe we should actually be spending the effort over at DRV to make it less intimidating and newbie-friendly.--Aervanath (talk) 15:58, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Better: spend time making this as useful as possible, AND making DRV easier to use; if we can get DRV to the point where REFUND is no longer needed, then so much the better.--Aervanath (talk) 16:09, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I still think they should be separated; they serve distinct functions. I've no desire to watch DRV, but I don't mind helping newbies non-controversially recover content. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b> <sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 16:55, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * If it is an issue of watching separate pages, that can surely be solved by transcluding like Categories for discussion/Speedy is at WP:CFD. Hiding T 18:16, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Like xeno, I have no interest in watching DRV. (And my hat is off to those who do watch it). If this page becomes totally unneeded, so much the better, but until then, I'm happy to help here. If transcluding it into DRV helps anyone, go for it.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  21:14, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * That seems fine. It's a lot like RFA, I wouldn't mind seeing RFAs transcluded as they go live, but I don't want to watch WT:RFA =) –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b> <sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 23:12, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I haven't looked at DRV in forever. Yikes! It makes me think that if we can't simplify these processes, we should see if we can't whip up a wizard-style thing, like the AfC article creation wizard. (Which by the by I have proposed be copied/adapted for wider use, starting with the Search Page Results "Create A Page" link: WP:VPR.) Rd232 talk 03:27, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I think transcluding part of this to DRV would be a good idea.--Aervanath (talk) 11:41, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

(unindent) Include as a section at DRV works for me. The issue is to keep it simple for non-controversial deletions, and that users know where to go to ask (its better to have a specific page or section than "just ask some admin", for a new user). FT2 (Talk 15:31, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Name change proposal
I wholeheartedly support this process. However, it seems obvious to me that new users can easily confuse it with Deletion review, since the difference between the two is not self-evident from their names. Therefore, I propose the name "Wikipedia:Non-controversial undeletions", with a shortcut at "WP:NCU". (However, I LOVE the redirect WP:REFUND.) szyslak  ( t ) 00:39, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * That doesn't make it obvious that it's a process page, though. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b> <sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 14:01, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * There are plenty of other process pages whose titles don't make this obvious, one example being Proposed deletion. I'd be open to a title like Wikipedia:Requests for non-controversial undeletion, though. szyslak  ( t ) 21:45, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * That page explains a process, it isn't a process in itself... Nevertheless, your concern may be alleviated if we instead tranclude this onto DRV, which is what we seem to be leaning towards. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b> <sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 15:47, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Lazy button
It strikes me that if this were set up with a template like at T:TDYK, it could be configured so that admins could userfy a deleted article to the requestee with one click. This would encourage participation from the segment of our administrative corps whose laziness and morbid obesity has resulted in them requiring a wand for individual mouse-clicks. Only partially in jest, Skomorokh  23:16, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

ARSify
Just a heads up that there's a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion that might be of interest to people here.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  18:17, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Do we need separate sections for "fulfilled" "rejected" "current"?
It would be a bit easier if the admin who acts on a request didn't have to move it and it should be obvious from the done/not done tags what the result was. This is the way WP:PERM works. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 16:41, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

The way forward
It appears that this proposal has strong support and is starting to be used based on the number of requests coming in. So the question is what next? Can we mark this as approved now and start to "advertise" its existence in deletion related policy documents? --ThaddeusB (talk) 12:57, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe be bold and mark it as a guideline or process or whatever it is, and see if anyone objects. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 17:01, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

extra eyes please
Would one of you more experienced admins. have a gander at Exploding chicken. Upon request, I userfied it to: User:ChildofMidnight/Exploding chicken, but did not include the history. If all the old versions should accompany that "refund", would you let me know, and I'll fix it up when I get back tonight. Thanks, and cheers to all. — Ched : <font style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#0000fa;"> ? 14:47, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think technically the history is supposed to go with the userfied, but I admit I haven't strictly applied this technicality. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 14:51, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It was explained to me many moons ago (before the license change) that the GFDL required all the history to be restored, too. That's the way I've been doing it. (I'll look for a link in a bit)-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  16:31, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Found it: Deletion_guidelines_for_administrators. The relevant sentence is "Because of GFDL requirements, selective deletion should only be done in certain extreme circumstances. Situations where such a selective deletion might be warranted include copyright violations that occur only in certain revisions, or personally identifying information that has been deemed inappropriate by consensus." While I don't see it explicitly said anywhere, it seems if you restore/userfy without restoring all the history, you've effectively done a selective deletion.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  16:40, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Fabrictramp is correct. If the article is eventually going to go back into mainspace, then it needs to carry its history with it for attribution purposes.--Aervanath (talk) 17:13, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Even if not, I would gather. In case it gets harvested from its place in userspace. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 17:17, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * True. I'd forgotten that sometimes we userfy pages so they can be transferred to other wikis, and many of those wikis also have similar attribution requirements. So, yeah, we should be defaulting to userfying the entire history unless there are copyright or privacy violations in the history.--Aervanath (talk) 18:16, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

OK, I thank you all. I stopped to grab a bite to eat for lunch, I'll fix it up while I'm eating. Thanks folks. — Ched : <font style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#0000fa;"> ? 17:25, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Preloader
I created a preloader page (stealing from AN/3), Requests for undeletion/Example. Do we want to have a preload page and instructions so that editors can just come here and make one click in order to get to "current requests"? See Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring as an example. Protonk (talk) 17:59, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * So at AN3 I assume you're talking about the box that says "Click here to add a new report"? If so, I think it would be a good thing for here, too.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  21:03, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes. I'll probably shamelessly steal their faux edit notice as well.  Does anyone have a better idea on how to form that preloader page aside from just substituting drv2?  It seems to work ok for now but it might be nice to eventually have one that says very obviously "page goes here" and "reason goes here". Protonk (talk) 21:09, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Done. Please check to make sure I didn't break anything important.  In adding this I moved the current request section into a sub-page and transcluded it on the main page. Protonk (talk) 21:47, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * ❌ I commented out the preloader link because it was failing gracelessly. I have asked someone more technically inclined than me for help. Protonk (talk) 00:28, 11 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Now ✅ as I replaced it with a simple section header with instructions. Protonk (talk) 17:42, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Remember to watch the sub page
Requests for undeletion/Current requests

is where the current requests are. So if you see this on your watchlist please watchlist the sub-page. Thanks. Protonk (talk) 23:10, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

NOINDEX
Please add to articles that are userfied through this process (in fact, to articles that are userfied through any process). That prevents Google search from picking them up. The userfication process should not be a method to effectively recreate articles visible to the outside world via search engines.&mdash;Kww(talk) 15:38, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It might be good to add this to USERFY. I hadn't known to do this before, and I'll bet others didn't either. Thanks for the heads up! -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  15:46, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Archive burning
I recommend that we either remove old (and seen) requests to a page which is not transcluded or we just delete them. This is kind of a lightweight process and I would love to be able to only watchlist the current request page in order to run it. I don't forsee a real use for archives as discussion. What does everyone else think? Protonk (talk) 17:21, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * My only concern would be how we know if the requester has seen the answer. I get the impression that 90% of the requesters are new users and either may not log in frequently or not know to watchlist the page. As long as we make sure the requester has had plenty of time to check out the answer, I don't see a problem with ditching archives because everything will be available in the page history.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  17:37, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * May depend on the volume of requests. 14 days might be good?  We could also write a user comment template to drop on talk pages for yes/no.  Maybe something that accepts a page name as an argument for yes and an old revision of current requests for no?  but as we can see from the preloader I might not be the best person for that. Protonk (talk) 17:41, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Considering that I didn't understand a thing after "14 days might be good?", I'm clearly not the best person either. ;-) -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  20:57, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No one has objected for a month, so I'm going to boldly remove all the current requests over 14 days. Feel free to revert and drop a note here letting me know.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  19:49, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Watch the sub-page
http://toolserver.org/~mzmcbride/cgi-bin/watcher.py?db=enwiki_p&titles=Wikipedia%3ARequests_for_undeletion%2FCurrent_requests|Wikipedia_talk%3ARequests_for_undeletion

At least 15 people are watching this page and not the sub-page. Just FYI. Protonk (talk) 17:53, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Scope and best practices
A couple of recent conversations lead me to think that most of us are on the same page here, but that it might be good to clarify exactly what the scope of this project and best practices are. Here's what I think; feel free to add your two cents or flat out correct me. The goal is to get something written down that both admins working here can refer to and requesters can use as a guide.

Article restorations outside our scope:
 * Anything deleted at xfD
 * The following speedy criteria (unless the restoring admin feels the article clearly did not meet the criteria):
 * G1. Patent nonsense.
 * G3. Pure vandalism and blatant hoaxes.
 * G4. Recreation of a page that was deleted per a deletion discussion
 * G8. Pages dependent on a non-existent or deleted page
 * G9. Office actions
 * G10. Pages that disparage or threaten their subject
 * G11. Unambiguous advertising or promotion
 * G12. Unambiguous copyright infringement.
 * A1. No context
 * A3. No content

Article userfications / emailing outside our scope:
 * The following speedy criteria (unless the restoring admin feels the article clearly did not meet the criteria):
 * G1. Patent nonsense.
 * G3. Pure vandalism and blatant hoaxes.
 * G9. Office actions
 * G10. Pages that disparage or threaten their subject
 * G12. Unambiguous copyright infringement.

A few of the other speedy categories I'm on the fence on, especially some A7 cases, and prods are a tricky subject. I'm outside my comfort zone when it comes to non-article speedies (ie images, categories, etc), so I don't really have an opinion on if we should handle them here -- I wouldn't be the one handling that request, for sure. :)

Best practices (not mandatory, but what we all should strive to do):
 * Put a tb notice on the requester's talk page, since they may not know to watchlist this page and not remember how to get back here.
 * If an article is restored, give a courtesy notice to the person who requested deletion and/or the deleting admin as appropriate.
 * If an article is userfied or restored for a newish editor, give them some guidance on their talk page (or here) on what the article needs, links to guidelines, and a recommendation to use the help tag to have it reviewed before moving back to mainspace.

Thoughts? Additions? Corrections?-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  15:34, 23 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Articles deleted under G4 and G11 articles be brought up to acceptable standard relatively easily while retaining the bulk of their deleted state. I think your second list should is a step in the right direction in terms of firm rules, but I'd be inclined on leaving the others up to the admin's discretion. As the process matures, we're likely to get firmer norms, and can tighten up the rules accordingly. On an unrelated matter, I've been encouraging restorationists to go through WP:FEED rather than helpme. Skomorokh  16:20, 23 September 2009 (UTC)


 * My concern with simply restoring (rather than going through the userfy/fix/move cycle) G4s and G11s is they might not be fixed quickly, leading to another deletion cycle and added stress for the editor. Am I seeing a problem that doesn't exist? Or should we just strike G4 and G11 from the first list?


 * Thanks for the WP:FEED info. That's a new one to me, and looks like a great resource.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  17:10, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I still think this is an important initiative we pursue to hash out norms. I've started a section of the deletion policy covering this process, discussion welcome here. There are some things it would be best to state in policy, but others (i.e. what to do with content deleted under specific speedy criteria) that would be more suited to a statement of best practices. Skomorokh, barbarian  07:45, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Categories
Can Administrators who are engaged in this process please remove or nowiki main-space categories if moving to user-space? --Cameron Scott (talk) 11:57, 9 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Any specific goofs that caused the comment? I always try to comment out or remove cats and maintenance templates, but if I screw one up, please remind me gently. :) -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  19:57, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Too liberal
Does anyone else agree that restoring an unreferenced WP:BIO-violating page like Laris Gaiser into the mainspace is unreasonable? Andre (talk) 07:29, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Andre, perhaps you might read the first paragraph of WP:REFUND. -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  14:18, 13 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, Deletion_policy says "Any editor who disagrees with a proposed deletion can simply remove the tag. Even after the page is deleted, any editor can have the page restored by any administrator simply by asking. In both cases the editor is encouraged to fix the perceived problem with the page." This is exactly what happened. An editor asked, I restored, and I encouraged them to fix the problems with the page. If you think that Wikipedia's deletion policy needs a fundamental rewrite, Wikipedia talk:Deletion policy would be my suggestion.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  16:03, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Talk pages
When a page is refunded, normally the talk page should also be restored, correct? Based on past experience I'm not sure that this is always, or often, happening. Chubbles (talk) 15:38, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Should be, but being human, sometimes we forget to check. :( I've restored Talk:Keynote Records. Happy editing! -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  16:48, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks. Maybe it would be a good idea to put a reminder somewhere - I don't see a mention of it anywhere on this page. Chubbles (talk) 18:31, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Probably WP:RESTORE is where that reminder needs to go, since it applies to any restoration, not just ones done here.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  19:46, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Some help?
Hello, Could an admin respond to this request ? I'm not sure this is the right place for the request, but I'm not sure where else to send them. Thanks, Hobit (talk) 17:59, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Malformations and solutions
A great deal of requests here are malformed, making the page difficult to read and obscuring the articles to be undeleted. Should we consider giving some technical assistance to requesters, such as adapting a preloader or transclusion method of adding requests? Skomorokh, barbarian  17:52, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Protonk gave a preloader a try a while back, and it didn't work out well. (The whole following instructions thing stumped a lot of requesters.) But if you can figure one out, be my guest. Seems like we spend half our time here fixing formatting just so we can read the requests. :( -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  18:19, 31 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I think the basic problems have been fixed. the only thing left is that new requests are often left under a L2 heading instead of an L4 (or under both).  The preloader "fixed" that at the expense of the problems mentioned above. Protonk (talk) 07:22, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Undelete images
Could somebody please take a look at Category:Requests to undelete images? It seems nobody is checking in on that regularly. -- Mr Stalker  ( talk ) 23:29, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Template:Refund
Alright, if you haven't noticed, I've reformatted the new request link (now an inputbox) to use refund, which I'm hoping will make things a bit easier to manage (see what it looks like here). Let me know if that's not the case. Cheers,   A rbitrarily 0    ( talk ) 00:04, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I like it. Nice work. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black;">talk 00:09, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks xeno! It's a shame I had to undo this :-)  Take care,    A rbitrarily 0    ( talk ) 14:53, 28 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I think the next step should be a commenting/reply template and attendant editnotice instructions. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black;">talk 14:57, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Alright, take a look: Template:Editnotices/Group/Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion (and see what it looks like here too). Let me know what you think,    A rbitrarily 0    ( talk ) 15:28, 29 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Awesomely awesome!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  16:26, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot! :-) Cheers,    A rbitrarily 0    ( talk ) 02:11, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Archiving
Can we get a bot to archive sections after 48 hours or summit? Spartaz Humbug! 11:45, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I put in a query at User talk:Misza13. We have been manually removing after two weeks, to give sporadic editors time to see their answer. I wouldn't be adverse to shortening that a bit (10 days? a week?), but if we shorten it too much, we'll run into frustrated new editors who won't read the instructions telling them to look in the archives. :( -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  14:23, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * 10 days sounds like a good number to me. I'd be afraid, as you said, that any shorter would only cause more confusion.  Thanks for doing this,    A rbitrarily 0    ( talk ) 02:09, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I've added the Miszabot template, set for 10 days. I'll check in tomorrow to see if any weirdness happened. :) -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  14:42, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The bot can't archive the way we have this set up. It only looks at "==" sections, not "====" sections. :( -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  14:37, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * And it looks like someone has revamped it. Thanks! Let's hope that does the trick.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  14:41, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh whoops, yeah I did this so that requests would be added as 'new section's ... but I guess it works out nicely! :)    A rbitrarily 0    ( talk ) 15:44, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Misza did a bit of tinkering with the template, and we have archiving! -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  15:23, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The log seems to be growing a bit larger now, maybe it would be appropriate to shorten it to seven days?   A rbitrarily 0    ( talk ) 23:55, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Let's try going to 8 first. That way if someone posts on a Saturday, they have until the following Sunday to easily find their answer. (I'm assuming the vast majority of requesters here will not think to go to the clearly marked archives...)-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  15:46, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me! Thanks,    A rbitrarily 0    ( talk ) 13:46, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Explanation wouldn't post
Even looking at the template I couldn't make the second field of my request count - it simply says "no explanation given". When I tried to add to the page something very strange happened - it deleted the last 27 sections and put my signature on someone else's post! (Even editing the whole article at once this will happen)


 * Found the second bug. Somehow the existing saved text contained a loose  - so even though I edited only section 60, everything after the subst was lost because the template wasn't properly closed. Wnt (talk) 15:36, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

BLP prod influx
There seems to be an influx of requests that deal with articles tagged with BLP prod, but have not yet been deleted. Part of the problem is that dated prod blp links here, although the template itself seems to read fairly straightforward. I'm not sure what the solution to this is though ... maybe some message here that explains what to do? I don't know, I'll give it some thought.   A rbitrarily 0   ( talk ) 00:00, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I've noticed this too, but I haven't been able to come up with wording that's less misleading than the status quo (since it's really not very misleading to begin with) while remaining reasonably concise. Best I've done is "If you only find one after the article has been deleted, you may request that the article be restored." ProdwarningBLP, the standard user-talk warning template, has a similar problem.
 * We might also try adding a "Are you in the right place?" section here, mentioning prod-in-progress, prod-blp-in-progress, article-deleted-via-afd, etc. I'm wary of going overboard, though&mdash;I wouldn't want to see this page ending up like the first couple of sections at WP:DRV. &mdash;Korath (Talk) 01:26, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Right right, I agree - especially about that DRV bit :) Well for starters, I made a (likely temporary) modification to dated prod blp that should help clarify things there a bit (although it makes the template look even more congested).  One option might be to have the template and author notice link to Requests for undeletion/Biographies of living persons, which could have a 'disclaimer' of sorts.  It could link to pages that give help adding references and removing prod tags, for example.  Cheers,    A rbitrarily 0    ( talk ) 11:59, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Alright, I've made a change here that should fix the problem. Cheers,   A rbitrarily 0    ( talk ) 04:25, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I had also noticed this, and (before reading this discussion), I added a new short second paragraph to the instructions at the head of the page, to say this is only for pages already deleted. I don't think that's going overboard, but feel free to amend/revert if you disagree. JohnCD (talk) 13:04, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion for requests related to articles that have not been deleted (yet)
Instead of using ❌ perhaps another template, could be created. Can't think of a good image for it right off hand. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 03:09, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, would be helpful. But it might be even more productive to fix the problem at its root (see the discussion above, for example).  Cheers,    A rbitrarily 0    ( talk ) 03:21, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Template responses
Would there be any objections to a template like AN3 that contains more than just ✅ and ? (eg, take to DRV, userfied, user blocked, malformed request, etc)? --B (talk) 18:54, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I have no objections. I've started a little something at Template:Undr (although maybe it could use a better name).  For example, try: <tt>  </tt>.  Is that something like what you're referring to? Cheers,    A rbitrarily 0    ( talk ) 19:28, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Looks good so far (obviously there are some other options to be added and maybe tweaking the text) ... UND, RFU, and REFUND are all available, so they may be good as redirects. --B (talk) 19:36, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Right, right. I've gone ahead and moved it to UND, as it seems much better than 'undr'.  I'll go ahead and redirect the rest.  Cheers,    A rbitrarily 0    ( talk ) 19:46, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I have added some others. --B (talk) 20:27, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I like it :) My only suggestion would be that they be used substituted, so that A) they're easier for requesters to read in the wikitext box, and B) in case the messages change over time.  Just a suggestion, it's by no means necessary.  Cheers,    A rbitrarily 0    ( talk ) 21:12, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I like it too, and second the subst suggestion as well.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  13:56, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Substing does not work. Try it and see what happens.  Rather than substing the output of the template, it substs (substes?  substifies?  substificates?) the #switch and #if functions.  So it results in one gigantic mess. --B (talk) 20:01, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm, that is unfortunate. I guess that's the advantage of using the old templates then.    A rbitrarily 0    ( talk ) 20:29, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Is there an advantage to glomming them all into one template like this instead of, say, UND/done and redirect UND/d in place of the current and ?  Not being able to subst them is a clear strike against. &mdash;Korath (Talk) 20:36, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see any reason they couldn't be made sub-templates like you describe. I wonder if there is a way to "double-subst" so that the conditionals get substed. --B (talk) 20:52, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Prefix any parserFunctions or other template calls with and rejoice. – xeno <sup style="color:black;">talk 20:55, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Done, thank you, and working fine in my sandbox. Rejoicing in progress. &mdash;Korath (Talk) 21:19, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I have updated the template documentation accordingly. --B (talk) 21:44, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
 * (outdent) Could an option be added for copyvio (replacing the legacy )? DMacks (talk) 12:58, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ --B (talk) 20:37, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

ImageUndeleteRequest
I'm very surprised that I had never noticed this before, but there is a template called ImageUndeleteRequest that is for requesting undeletion of images that were deleted for lacking a source, etc, to allow a user to add whatever is missing. From looking at Category:Requests to undelete images, there were two pages in there - one from June 8 and one from June 14 (both of which I have now handled). So this template obviously isn't being monitored regularly. Would anyone have an objection to folding that process into this one? (Deprecate the template and category, change references to them to point here instead, etc.) --B (talk) 20:00, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
 * No objection here. Seems like the processes have already merged in practice. Cheers,    A rbitrarily 0    ( talk ) 20:27, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I have added the merge suggestion template to both the template and the category. --B (talk) 21:16, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
 * You adding the merge suggestion template was the first time I noticed Category:Requests to undelete images on my watchlist in ages. Which is exactly the point, unless there is a lot of requests (like CSD) it's better to use a page, so it appears on watchlist. So yeah, I support this. Peter 21:31, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
 * There are two other advantages to using this process. (1) You potentially have feedback to give to a user and adding a template to a page doesn't really facilitate that. (2) When an image is restored, if the user doesn't fix whatever problem led to its deletion (eg, add it to an article, add a source, etc), then it needs to be redeleted. Hopefully whoever restores it just resets the timer on the image, which will ensure it is deleted in a week if nobody touches it and it won't hang out forever.  But by having the images in a list, it's possible to audit them and make sure that they have been fixed. --B (talk) 21:38, 21 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Support, never understood the point of this template. I think it's really better to keep the number of processes low, ensuring that someone is likely be able to help. --The Evil IP address (talk) 17:08, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ Seeing no objections after a week of notice here, at WT:DRV, WP:VPR, and on the template and category themselves, I have changed all non-discussion pages that point to ImageUndeleteRequest to point here instead, as appropriate. I have tagged ImageUndeleteRequest as a deprecated template, which should lead to its deletion in a couple of weeks. --B (talk) 22:02, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Incorrectly formated undeletion request
Maybe it will prove useful and maybe it will be obnoxious, but I have modified refund so that if you leave the page as "pageName", you will see a message informing you of the error of your ways. --B (talk) 20:44, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

temporary userfication
Please note that I did read the prominent notice at the top of WP:REFUND, explaining that this page is not for requesting undeletion of AfD. Admittedly, I initially came here to do just that.

The reason I would like to temporarily userfy an article (which was well sourced, non-controversial, but deleted due to consensus that it failed notability), is to challenge an existing guideline. The guideline in question is WP:ATHLETE. Even some of its supporters defend it on the basis that "it would be hard to think of a better one". My intention is to show just how necessary thinking of a better guideline is. To do so, I would like to compare the subject of this sucessful AfD, with this guy, who passes it. I'm considering starting a centralised discussion on the matter, on the grounds that the general question of arbitrarily determining notability extends far beyond association football, or indeed sport in general. If there is a centralised discussion, it would be extremely helpful to have access to this article, to simply demonstrate the issue to non-experts.

Anyway, I won't take any more of your time on the background. I'm aware that this is the wrong forum, but can anyone here point me in a useful direction (if it's unprecidented, a place where such a request might be considered, even if ultimately declined)? Short of posting on Jimbo's talk page directly, I really couldn't think of where to go with this one. Regards, WFC (talk) 21:04, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually this is the right place to ask for temporary userfication even in case of an AfD as would be the talk page of the closing administrator. Nevertheless due to a number of posts that actually challenge the outcome of some deletion discussion, recently the hatnote you noticed was added. Unfortunately it isn't taking account of that difference nor does it help in identifying a better place. I'm trying to fix the wording here and userfy the article in question for you. --Tikiwont (talk) 12:35, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm very grateful. I have initiated the discussion, which can be found here. At the end of the process, I will either recreate the article and instantly initiate an AfD (if the guideline changes to such an extent that a different outcome is likely), or nominate it for deletion under CSD G4. Regards, WFC (talk) 16:07, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. If you later see the need to reopen the case of this particular player, please contact the closing administrator first Spartaz on how to proceed. Even if the guidelines are changed, the problem of scarce in depth sources does not simply go away. In any case please do not simply recreate in main space but rather work on the page in your user space which can then either be moved back or assessed at deletion review. --Tikiwont (talk) 19:46, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Pages that were "controversially deleted"
Were do I find the page for listing restoring pages that were controversially deleted --Traveler100 (talk) 17:03, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Deletion review.  If you need help posting a request there let me know. Protonk (talk) 17:09, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Mentioning REFUND on the file deletion warning templates
Hi all. There are lots of file deletion warning templates. They warn people that a file they uploaded may soon be deleted. (Here are the file deletion warning templates I could find: Eight of them are listed in alphabetical order in Category:CSD warning templates, from to . There's also ,,, , , , , and . Note: Many of these templates are fully protected and I am not an admin.)

For a long time, I didn't know Requests for Undeletion existed: I thought that once a file I uploaded was deleted, there was no way to undo the deletion unless I still had a copy left on my PC to re-upload. I think we should mention Requests for Undeletion near the end of each file deletion warning template's text, so that everyone will know that files are undeletable. We can write something like this: "If the file gets deleted because you didn't fix this in time, you can ask us to undelete the file so you can fix it. You can do this at Requests for undeletion."

What do you think? Cheers, Unforgettableid (talk) 23:19, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Boilerplate and DRV
Just a thought, but would it be possible to build a 1-2 button DRV submission script given the information editors give us at REFUND (specifically: some reasoning and the article link). I know we don't want all requests which reference an AfD or CSD to go immediately to deletion review but I want to avoid "your princess is in another castle" syndrome. Protonk (talk) 22:56, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Why are requests to restore expired prods being declined?
I couldn't help but notice that there are 2 requests here for the restoration of articles deleted via prod that have been declined. It's my understanding that this is suppose to be "slam dunk automatic" unless the article is a copyvio or has serious WP:V or WP:BLP issues which isn't the case with either of the articles in question.

I won't name the articles because I don't want to single out any particular admin or question their judgment but I would ask that when declining to restore an expired prod that you be more clear as to why. If the article clearly fails a CSD criteria then you need to say which one. If you feel that the article doesn't meet one of our non-speedy inclusion criteria (isn't notable, violates one of the NOTs etc.) then it should be restored and sent to AFD so the community can make the call. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 17:35, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It might be good to drop a line to the admins who are declining and ask what's going on. I've been far less active lately, but AFAIK your take on the PRODs is still SOP. -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  04:17, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree w/ Fabric. Admins who deny requests to restore contested PRODs should be contacted individually.  Some cases may merit individual discretion but the spirit of this page is to restore uncontroversially deleted pages quickly and without rigmarole. Protonk (talk) 17:40, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

what i think
i think people who waste there time just trying to delete random pages because there isnt an adaquite reference is just dumb —Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.116.165.83 (talk) 20:25, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Shorter repost: Mentioning REFUND to users whose files get deleted
Hi all. This is a shorter repost of my above message. Many people don't know about REFUND. I think we should add some text to, , and some other pre-deletion warning templates. Something like this: "If you didn't see this message in time, and the file is already deleted, ask us to undelete the file so you can fix it."

What do you think of my idea? What do you think of my text?

Cheers, Unforgettableid (talk) 17:36, 11 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Seems ok for the small set of image deletion templates which we can act on at REFUND. Is there a bit about refund on the PROD notice? Protonk (talk) 17:41, 11 October 2010 (UTC)


 * OK. Actually, I think the following text is better. I plan to use it instead. "If you didn't see this message in time, and the file's already gone, click here to request undeletion so you can fix the problem." As for your question: Which PROD notice do you mean?  Cheers, Unforgettableid (talk) 22:27, 13 October 2010 (UTC)


 * There probably isn't just one. I mean the template that gets left on a user's page when s/he is a notable editor on the article. Protonk (talk) 22:36, 13 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Dunno, and I haven't checked. You can add it to there yourself if you like. :)


 * I just created and am starting to transclude it into some of the image pre-deletion warning templates.


 * It appears not to belong in.


 * It's not needed in : if the nominator and the deleter both agreed to delete an image, they're probably right, and we don't want to clog up REFUND with undeletion requests in such a case.


 * In both cases, I suspect the problem wasn't simple neglect on the part of the uploader: it's that the uploader was wrong when deciding to upload that image to Wikipedia.


 * I added it to, , and.


 * It's not a good idea to add it to or : they're non-REFUNDable, and it's not a good idea to encourage editors to bog down WP:DRV with review requests.


 * I wanted to add it to, , ,, , , , , and , but couldn't: they're protected.


 * Dear all:


 * 1. Are they all REFUNDable?


 * 2. If so, could an admin please add right before the closing "Thank you" of the aforementioned templates?


 * This post by Unforgettableid (talk) was last edited around 03:14, 16 November 2010 (UTC).

Bitey language in the UND template
I'd like to propose removing the text As announced prominently at the top of the page from the UND template that's displayed when declining PRODs for articles deleted by AFD. I think it might be interpreted by some new users as a veiled way of saying "hey stupid can't you read" and I don't think it's really needed. The remaining text should be informative enough.

I almost did it myself per BOLD but I have little experience with editing templates so let's go straight to "D". --Ron Ritzman (talk) 17:28, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. I already modified this from a still stronger version but anybody posting here, simply hasn't read it.--Tikiwont (talk) 18:18, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree. People just don't read warning text at all no matter how obvious (or haughty) it is made. Protonk (talk) 20:43, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * It's bee reverted, partly because of an unfortunate wording both in text and edit summary. I've now changed it to 'As announced at the top...' which imo isn't particularly bitey, but also clarifies that it is general procedure that we don't invent ad hoc.--Tikiwont (talk) 08:37, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with removal of the word prominent. I reverted because "also" made no sense I could make out.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 13:02, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

This Ebony March Business
I'm approaching 3RR but the comments about this article are becoming increasingly bizarre. I'd like another set of eyes on the subject. Protonk (talk) 19:27, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Partial repost: Adding to more warning templates
Dear all:

1. All these templates are protected. Are they all REFUNDable?



2. If so, could an admin please add the subtemplate right before the closing "Thank you" of all the templates?

Thanks in advance, --Unforgettableid (talk) 01:09, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd say that "no permission" and "replaceable fair use" would usually require OTRS & would need something different, as not all admits have access to that database. The other somewhat iffy one would be "replaceable fair use", especially if there had been a discussion/consensus about the deletion of the image.  I don't see a problem with the others.  Skier Dude  ( talk ) 05:04, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry for chiming in late, but while say a missing fair use rationale can be fixed, there is rarely a reason to 'refund' the file to the uploader themselves as it usually will be on some website or their hard drive. Most good refund request for files that are posted here come form other editors who see it in some article history or with respect to problems with commons. We should not ask people to come here for a refund whilst they still have the file and all they need to do is really need the policies and then upload it again correctly. That is very diffeent from deleted articles into which work has been spent.--Tikiwont (talk) 13:52, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I disagree completely. It is much easier for me to restore an image file than it is for someone to upload a new version of the same file and re-write (or even just copy/paste) a rationale.  REFUND is not supposed to be a teachable moment about policies and procedures.  It is supposed to be a process page where admins can fix problems where possible for users. Protonk (talk) 18:15, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, that my post came across wrongly since trying to fix problems for users is the reason why hang out here as well. Nor do I think that refund here is about educating, in fact that should happen if necessary on the users talk page and we have already to many replies here that drive home a point (presumably including some of mine). So I would certainly not decline such posts. Having only dealt with requests by editors different than the uploader, I was just under the impression that the main problem uploaders have is with the rationales not with recovering or uploading the file, so I didn't see the point in directing them here. If restoring in place is that much easier than redoing, fine with me.--Tikiwont (talk) 18:47, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Let me just add that I talked about my own post coming across wrongly above, and that my own starting point was the wording 'If the file is already gone, you can still make a request for undeletion and ask for a chance to fix the problem.' Which sounded to me as if that chance would depend mostly on the refund, but maybe 'gone' is just fine as it might be understood in the sense of not available anymore to or gone ta Wikipedia and too difficult to fix for the the uploader. We'll see.--Tikiwont (talk) 20:43, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I see that the subtemplate has been added to most of the templates. Thanks folks. Unforgettableid (talk) 20:56, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Rejected PROD restore requests
We should probably have some type of policy about when to and not to restore PRODed articles. My sense is we should always restore PRODed articles on request (baring things that should have been speedied or have BLP issues etc.) and if the restoring admin feels that the article doesn't meet our notability guidelines then they should send the article off to AfD. Hobit (talk) 20:16, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I have always thought that the PROD policy/guidance itself served well enough. I just treat a contested prod after the fact the same as one before the fact, barring obvious issues or indications of bad faith. Protonk (talk) 20:23, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I concur, but I've seen a lot of those type of requests rejected here, which, if we're to follow the policy, shouldn't happen, barring serious (ie speediable) issues. HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?   20:26, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Assuming no objections, should we just add a single sentence to WP:PROD to make it clear what the intent is to admins? Hobit (talk) 20:36, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I would support creating a small subpage with basic instructions about what we should do in common situations like this, I think it would be pretty simple to put together and might help people who are new to the page contribute if they so desire. <font color="#303030">l'aquatique <font color="#7FC11C">[talk]  21:32, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I would support a policy change only if we are sure the policy is unclear. If we feel that the policy is clear but unevenly enforced (where it has reason to be evenly enforced), then a policy change will have little effect. Protonk (talk) 21:40, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the policy is clear. WP:DEL: "Even after the page is deleted, any editor can have the page restored by any administrator simply by asking." WP:PROD could be clearer, though it does say in para 3 at the top "It may be undeleted upon request", with a link to REFUND. I will suggest adding to the last sentence of WP:PROD, which currently says "If the article has already been deleted, please go to Requests for undeletion." the words "It will be undeleted automatically on request, though it may then be nominated at WP:Articles for deletion." JohnCD (talk) 21:54, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
 * (ec) That sounds fair. My main concern is that it doesn't actually say that already anywhere obvious- so if someone (like me, for example) comes here wanting to help out they're going to watch what other people are doing and base their actions on that- and people have been denying expired prods. <font color="#303030">l'aquatique <font color="#7FC11C">[talk]  22:02, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I've boldly added a note on this to the editnotice for REFUND. Anyone should feel free to revert me if I've been too bold, but hopefully it'll be uncontroversial. HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?   23:04, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

(outdent) I've actually addressed this issue here before and recently this declined request has gone to deletion review (discussion). My belief is that the admins declining these are acting in good faith and simply don't see a point in restoring an article that does not stand a snowballs chance in hell of surviving AFD. However, like I said at the DRV, unless the article meets a speedy criteria or has BLP issues, the article should be restored no matter what the opinion of the reviewing admin is about the notability of the subject. This isn't "process wonkery", it's being fair and allowing anybody who advocates keeping the article to have their say, even if the article is eventually deleted. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:35, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree that it certainly has been in good faith. And I'd like to thanks all involved for quickly addressing the issues. Hobit (talk) 01:00, 29 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I think it's okay if the reviewing admin doesn't act on a request right away and writes a reply like "This article is in really bad shape and will probably be nominated at WP:Articles for deletion immediately. Would you like it userfied or incubated instead?" If the requester still wants it restored to article space, the admin would fulfill the request, as discussed above. My hope is that it would be less BITEy and stressful for the requester, but it runs the risk of the article being abandoned outside article space. Flatscan (talk) 05:26, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I think that would still look like a declined request, even if ❌ isn't used, to an inexperienced user. Therefore I would only support that for something like an unsourced BLP. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 14:34, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
 * That's a good point. I'll defer to the regulars' judgment. Flatscan (talk) 05:26, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Another option for admins who aren't comfortable restoring a contested prod is simply to pass on reviewing the refund request at all. Knock on wood, but we seem to have enough admins watching the page that one or two people can simply not comment on a request and know it will be dealt with by someone else.  That seems like a non-answer, but I think it is maybe the best if an admin feels that they don't want to restore a page but don't so much care if a page is restored generally.  If an admin cares enough that the page is restored generally, then we might be in the category of "damn good reason" for denying a contested PROD.  I also agree with Ron's full throated defense of the contested PROD standard; it really is about keeping up our end of the bargain for lightweight deletion processes.  It needs to be easy-come, easy-go otherwise we have to ask for some review prior to pulling the trigger on deletion. Protonk (talk) 17:08, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
 * On the first point I agree. If an admin feels uncomfortable restoring a particular article then it's best to "punt" and let another admin restore it. I myself have restored a few where I had to hold my nose. Alternatively the restoring admin can take it to AFD him/herself. On the "damn good reason" side, that reason should not be anything that resembles a typical AFD argument. Aside from speedy/BLP issues a "damn good reason" might be "unverifiability" but many of those might be covered under CSD G3. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 17:32, 29 January 2011 (UTC)


 * ...and what about a statute of limitations? An article was PROD'd and deleted 6 months ago, and nobody comes looking until now, is it worth undeleting?  Was it even worth having?  I won't undelete a 6 month old PROD in most cases... ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 16:51, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
 * ...but how would we know? Time isn't really a factor here and deletion via prod strikes often arbitrarily as well after an article was around for long time as well. I just restored one in need of work for a band after six month, maybe one you had in mind, but all their album articles stayed around all the time A10 notwithstanding. Maybe better now some attention and restoration than it having been among many other articles not attended to at all over this period. --Tikiwont (talk) 19:31, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

And speaking of WP:SNOW
It's ironic that I linked to WP:SNOW above because For example, if an article is speedily deleted for the wrong reason (not one of those listed in the criteria for speedy deletion), but doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of surviving deletion through the normal article deletion process, there's no sense in resurrecting it and forcing everyone to go through the motions of deleting it yet again is quoted in that essay as a "classic SNOW scenario". It's probably not the best example to use but that's an issue for WT:SNOW. However, it might explain why some admins are declining to restore some articles deleted by PROD. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 19:59, 29 January 2011 (UTC)