Wikipedia talk:Route diagram template/Archive 4

NXEC template
Does anyone else have this problem? This is probably related to the discussion above. Anyway, here is a visual representation.



And how can it be sorted? Simply south (talk) 00:11, 24 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Is the current version what you expect? – Peter CX &amp;Talk 03:21, 24 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I do not have any problem with the number of stations. I am just wondering why the template seems to be in blocks rather than continuous. Simply south (talk) 12:19, 24 November 2007 (UTC)


 * It is to do with your displayed font size. Whilst a graphic is in fixed pixels, the text alongside it - both visible and otherwise (eg spaces, line feeds) - are not and if the latter is larger than the former then a gap will appear. Depending on your browser for how to do it, but if you increase and decrease the displayed text size you will see the gaps enlarge or disappear. --AlisonW (talk) 13:05, 24 November 2007 (UTC)


 * (Edit conflict) There were at least 2 problems:
 * There were little gaps between each collapsible tables. Remove the BS-endCollapsibles which are immediately followed by BS4-startCollapsibles to remove the gaps. In fact there was an empty table inside each gap.
 * All [show] buttons were lost after Glasgow Central. Add a &amp;nbsp; to that BS4-startCollapsible between Motherwell and Edinburgh Haymarket solved the problem.
 * – Peter CX &amp;Talk 13:09, 24 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I have the same problem in Firefox 2.009. It renders correctly without the gaps in IE7. The problem in question is at East West MRT Line and other lines in the same MRT network pages. There is no collapsible tables. Appreciate if anyone with the technical know-how would help to pinpoint the problem? - oahiyeel talk 11:59, 25 November 2007 (UTC)


 * After some experimenting, I've managed to pinpoint the reason for the gaps. Basically when both parameters 5 and 6 are supplied, the gap would appear. The first example shows the problem, the 2nd example does not, when parameter 6 was removed where parameter 5 is in use. Note that when 6 is supplied without 5, it still renders correctly. Note in the 2nd example, para6 and para7 supplied rendered with differing height, where para 6 is lower. I suspect that is the reason for the gaps. Screen shot here  - oahiyeel talk 12:54, 25 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed, I checked another template that uses BS5, this one: Glasgow and Paisley Joint Railway. It has some breaks in Firefox (2.0.0.9), which seem to match the use of the second text paramater.Pyrotec (talk) 13:10, 25 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Interesting. I found that the two Singapore examples above and the Glasgow and Paisley Joint Railway map smooth and without gaps. IE 6.0.2900 – Peter CX &amp;Talk 13:51, 25 November 2007 (UTC)


 * That is also true. Interestingly I mostly use FireFox, and I edited (minor change) the template: Glasgow and Paisley Joint Railway on 22 October 2007 and I'm fairly certain it did not have the gaps then. There are only three gaps in the G&PJR template: under Shields junction, and under the station icons at Hillingdon East and Hillingdon West.Pyrotec (talk) 14:08, 25 November 2007 (UTC)


 * After some experimenting, the problem seems to be that in firefox, the table height is more than 20px, the size of the pictures. One solution is to increase the picture size to 21px or more. However it has to be done in all of the BS templates for consistency and mixed usage. A size should be decided (21px?) and probably needs consensus to amend all the BS templates - oahiyeel talk 14:36, 25 November 2007 (UTC)


 * However, no size can suit everyone's browser well, and if someone choose to use the largest font size in their brosers, gaps are still showing. Also, if it is really increased to 21px, then some others can also claim that they see gaps and the PX should increase further... Also refer to Wikipedia talk:Route diagram template/Archive 1. – Peter CX &amp;Talk 15:25, 25 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree, however, i feel that it should cater to the most basic of browsers, meaning plain jane firefox & IE & others, where the default font sizes are used. And in this case, with the plain jane firefox browser, the gaps are around. Would it actually break any pages if the size was changed to 21px? Because in my opinion it shouldn't, since we are making the image larger, not smaller. - oahiyeel talk 15:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I've fixed the problem with white lines in Firefox with template:Glasgow and Paisley Joint Railway simply by taking out the 2nd text parameter and adding it to the 1st text parameter, in three faulty rows. You can check the history; and I've not changed the browser. So it must be the template handling diagram rows with a used 2nd text parameter slightly differently to diagram rows using only 1st text parameters. At this point, I'm not sure how to proceed.Pyrotec (talk) 16:06, 25 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Even if that is technically correct, I think grouping the 2 parameters should not be encouraged in real usage, as the second parameter acts as a note to the first parameter. I think we should wait for a consensus to switch to 21px instead, if 21px can eliminate that little gap... – Peter CX &amp;Talk 17:14, 25 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Added 21px modification above – Peter CX &amp;Talk 17:20, 25 November 2007 (UTC)


 * @Pyrotec: It's related to the way firefox handles  or  . Try adding this to your notes in your template and you'll see what i mean. The gaps will reappear. In the template, the 1st parameter and 2nd parameter are actually in the same table cell, and is equivalent to this:    - oahiyeel talk 17:43, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Autocollapse option
For some articles, eg. Hanover-Würzburg high-speed rail line, the rail line described is very long, making it very hard to edit the article around it. So I have modified the railway line header template to give you the option to start the box collapsed. To do this, just give the parameter "collapse=yes" to the template - example. By default, the box will not be collapsed, as is currently the norm. Having this option is important if you want to incorporate lines into other objects (eg. infoboxes) or if the box is very big. - 52 Pickup (talk) 17:52, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes! Yes! Yes! I rewrote my own header to do this, but obviously what you have done is the best answer. Being relatively new I don't want to mess about with existing templates. Thank you - Secondarywaltz (talk) 18:17, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

ELEV
A user (User:AlisonW) has introduced the use of elevated rail icons, and they were soon being used in quite a number of diagrams. However, I would say that the naming was not correct under those rules in WP:RDT or de:Wikipedia:Formatvorlage Bahnstrecke. That is, elevated variation should not be named using a suffix -ELEV, but (similar to tunnel icons) using a prefix. Consider that even an elevated crossover is needed (ÜST-ELEV: File:BSicon ÜST-ELEV.svg), it is reasonable to guess that the number of icon IDs would get uncontrollable. I think actions, if needed, should be taken before the usages of them become too high to control, and before other languages of wikipedia start to use them. Comments are welcome. – Peter CX &amp;Talk 13:32, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * To correct some bad information there, I didn't create the first/base set of elevated icons (xx-ELEV) I just found them as part of the consolidation effort of finding out what icons actually exist so that (a) duplicates can be deleted, (b) miscodes can be identified and corrected, and (c) new icons can be created to fill in the gaps. If you look at User:AlisonW/Rail_Icons you will find the current state of affairs. I have been working through the codes in error correcting them on article pages over all languages so that we all can be consistent in icon naming and usage. --AlisonW (talk) 13:38, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry for any misleading statement. I didn't mean AlisonW was the first one to created those icons, but i meant we should try to rename those icons to use a prefix instead. – Peter CX &amp;Talk 13:51, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * No problem. As regards using a prefix rather than a suffix, I don't think I agree. The 'elevated' icons are primarily all amended versions of existing icons, just with added elevation (!) and there is already a practice of adding a suffix for certain types of icons, eg. angles and curves. The icons are clearly needed as demonstrated by their use, and it makes it far easier to 'read' a route plan when coding it if it just has the "-ELEV" suffix than to develop a new set of specific prefixes (of which we arguably have too many already!) I'm interested to hear what others think ... --AlisonW (talk) 14:05, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, and just to add to that comment, there are at least four icons per elevated code so the suffix is again clearer to work with. --AlisonW (talk) 14:09, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Hello. I'll put my hand up as the culprit/creator of 'ELEV', and my reason for going with a suffix is exactly as AlisonW has identified: ease and convenience. In regards to "other languages", from what I have seen this template is now quite popular and used in a number of countries (I'm using them in Australia), and the project should take a view that it has grown from being a German template – a result of its success.   SEO75  [  talk  ]  21:01, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * lol, indeed yes. I've just been creating another batch of elevated codes for junctions and small stations, and it really wouldn't be possible without using a suffix. I've also found that these icons are being used in a whole range of languages, having today amended diagrams in French, German, Hungarian, Chinese, Norwegian, Finnish, Italian and Japanese, not to mention the various 'flavours' of English! Part of my reasoning in consolidating the icons to a single working table was that there is a lot of 're-inventing the wheel' going on, and simlifying what we do have will benefit everyone in the end. --AlisonW (talk) 22:12, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * My point is "standard" in naming. That is, those icons does NOT follow the naming convention prefix-ID-suffix (xxxXXXxxx), but change to another naming style prefix-ID1-suffix-"-"-ID2 (xxxXXXxxx-ELEV). The rule is stated clearly in English, German Wikipedia, and also Commons:Commons:Railway line template/Policies. Consider that this project is multilingual (as both of you have said), it is important to keep the naming standard, but not amend it and give wikipedians of other language difficulties. And also, ELEV icons are NOT being used in other language yet. The most common icon, ELEV: File:BSicon ELEV.svg, is not used in any article for any language listed on WP:RDT, and is only listed on the ja: RDT catalog (ja:Wikipedia:経路図テンプレート/鉄道用ピクトグラム一覧). – Peter CX &amp;Talk 01:53, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * out-dented for readability
 * "Standards" aren't something have to remain fixed in stone for ever though, but need to change/bend to reflect new requirements. In this instance the use of a 'second suffix' for elevated lines makes a great deal of sense, basically and simply because a vast number of existing (and missing) icons will require an elevated version and that will be the *sole* difference between the versions. As such maintenance creation and usage of icon codes which just have that single 'addition' are easiest to code and work with if we add that simple extension. Whether "-ELEV" is the right suffix or it should be in some other language is, of course, a different discussion. However given that there are already codes based on German, French and English it would appear that "who needs it first names it" applies. --AlisonW (talk) 12:23, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

New "text" template
Looking through the route maps category I came across Template:Lynton and Barnstaple line which had used some small text above the route maps as it shows the state of the line on three different dates. Although this is - clearly - a very unusual case I wasn't happy to see the column years not line up with the routes, so I've created a few new templates to enable a minimal amount of text (I suspect five characters is the maximum) to be placed in each 'pictogram' position on a line.

Mapping BS3-5 they are Template:BS3text, Template:BS4text and Template:BS5text as these are the only overall widths where individual column titles might be required. They take the same parameters as BS3/4/5 do except that the first 3/4/5 entries are just the required text, not an icon code. Hope they are useful on those rare occasions. I haven't added them to the main project page yet as I'm not sure whether they should be. --AlisonW (talk) 00:35, 11 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I must say that is a really good idea =) – Peter CX &amp;Talk 08:35, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Firefox gaps fixed
Someone has fixed the gap problem by modifying the to use the same as the german version. I've modified to reflect the same changes. However for the and  I'm not too sure how these changes would affect. Would someone with the sufficient knowledge help to change it? - oahiyeel talk 03:46, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
 * This is tricky. I've looked at this for a while and I can't figure out what's going on. What I have noticed is that the gaps are not there when using a collapsible BS3 table (e.g. North Coast Line) but the gaps are there when using a collapsible BS1 table (e.g. Hanover-Würzburg high-speed rail line). More I haven't been able to figure out so far. - 52 Pickup  (deal) 20:12, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Printing
Something has gone wrong within the last month or so. Diagrams which look OK on screen are now totally corrupted when you print them. The problem is visible with "Print Preview" so you don't need to waste paper to investigate this. Just perform "Print Preview" of this talk page, and flip through the pages until you find a diagram (the first is the "East West Line"). (I am using IE 6.0, other browsers might not have this problem.) Printing used to work OK about a month or so ago. --Dr Greg (talk) 12:49, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Page looks fine to me in print preview in both Firefox and MSie ... what sort of problem are you having? --77.101.73.67 (talk) 15:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Agree with Dr, Greg. Using IE6, the diagrams on this page have a single indistinct route line, with nothing like the complexity seen in the HTML page view. Will try different browsers when I get home. --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:42, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I have a screenshot to illustrate the problem, but I can't work out what would be an appropriate licence to apply to the upload. None of the upload wizard's options seem appropriate. It's not really "my own work" but neither is it "not free content". (I've asked for help on the Media copyright questions help page, but no replies yet.)

Can anyone suggest an appropriate licence? --Dr Greg (talk) 18:05, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest GFDL, and that you relax a little. If it gets deleted it gets deleted. --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:19, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Use wikipedia-screenshot, and provide a link to the image, rather than putting it directly into this talk (or where-ever). For example see File:WP Screenshot - Infobox Uk Station.PNG which I used to discuss a problem once before. Tivedshambo (talk) 18:24, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Tivedshambo, that's exactly what I wanted to know.

Everybody, File:WP Screenshot - Incorrectly rendered image of route diagram.PNG illustrates the problem I originally described. It is a screendump of an incorrectly rendered "Print Preview". Further details are on the image's description page. A more complex, and more revealing, example, is File:WP Screenshot - Incorrectly rendered Blackpool & Fleetwood.PNG.

Can anyone work out what's gone wrong and how it can be fixed? --Dr Greg (talk) 12:55, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I suspect the problem is that IE6 does not handle SVG images correctly. It's not the RDT templates that are at fault. For example try print-previewing the contents panel on my user page. There have been various fixes in Wikipedia to correct this, but they don't seem to work for printing. You could try raising this on the technical village pump, but whether anything will get done I don't know. All I can suggest is printing from another browser - it seems to work ok with Firefox - or upgrading to IE7. Sorry I can't suggest anything more positive. Tivedshambo (talk) 16:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I can well believe that that black background behind each SVG image is a problem with the SVG-to-PNG conversion by the server. I don't whether that would account for all the misalignments. I suspect it's to do with the difference between screen pixels-per-inch and printer dots-per-inch. However I do remember printouts worked without a problem back in November or December of last year, so it's something that changed since then. There must be large numbers of our readers who are stuck with IE6 so it would be nice to find a solution.

I've asked a question at the Village pump here.

By the way, the images on Tivedshambo's user page print out without a problem. --Dr Greg (talk) 17:39, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


 * All, this may be related to the PngFix script that makes them transparent for IE6, but I'm not sure until I get home. But since PngFix has been running for about 6 months now, it may not be the source of the problem. — Edokter  •  Talk  • 20:34, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Icon request
Could someone produce a hybrid of File:BSicon ACC.svg and File:BSicon TurmBHFo.svg, for a split-level station with disabled access please (unless one already exists and I haven't found it). See Smethwick Galton Bridge in Template:Birmingham-Worcester via Kidderminster. Many thanks. Tivedshambo (talk) 12:53, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. TurmBHFAo BSicon TurmBHFAo.svg – Peter CX &amp;Talk 14:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Great - now in use. Many thanks. Tivedshambo (talk) 17:10, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Another request...could someone please create disused versions of File:BSicon kABZ3lg.svg, File:BSicon kABZ3lf.svg, File:BSicon kABZlg.svg and File:BSicon kABZlf.svg. It's to create two triangular junctions on the Three Bridges Line. I've only succeeded in creating PNG equivalents which are on the Commons. Ravenseft (talk) 11:10, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
 * One exists: exkABZ3lg BSicon exkABZq2.svg; others producing – Peter CX &amp;Talk 14:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. exkABZ3lf, exkABZlg, exkABZlf BSicon exkABZ3lf.svgBSicon exkABZlg.svgBSicon exkABZlf.svg – Peter CX &amp;Talk 15:12, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Fantastic work - I can't thank you enough. Ravenseft (talk) 19:56, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Two-line format bad
There seems to be a sudden rash of adding splitting the station information over two lines and using HTML to achieve this (ie "text part one text part two"). Could people please not do this as it breaks the continuity of lines when a user changes their displayed font size, creating breaks in the actual route line. Separately it also makes the diagram more difficult to read anyway as if you are looking for a station you've suddenly not got the station names alone in a column. Thanks. --AlisonW (talk) 22:46, 9 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I suspected there might be a down-side to this. I noticed one particular user has added 'interchange information' (which is already available in the text) in this manner to Greenford Branch Line and North London Line (these being on my watchlist - haven't looked at his other contributions, sorry.) You may care to have a word with him, if you haven't already.
 * EdJogg (talk) 01:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Tram symbols
There is a debate on WikiProject UK Railways about the use of specific tram symbols on route diagram templates, and I thought it would be better to discuss it here. There have been a number of cases where the generic tram symbol (either File:BSicon TRAM.svg or the tram symbol template) have been replaced with a specific logo. Personally I am opposed to this for two reasons: For example, see this template - a purple dot means nothing to most users. It has been suggested that a "hover over" tool-tip could be used, but this would not be suitable for printed versions, and relies on the user moving the mouse over the symbol in the first place. What do other users think? Tivedshambo (talk) 12:59, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * A logo may well be subject to free-use restrictions, and
 * A logo will need to be clearly identified.


 * In cases where the symbol is effectively permanent and always understood (eg TfL roundel) then it is possibly acceptable(subject to rights issues) whereas if the operator might change (most TOCs) then it would seem safer to use a generic. Hover tips aren't, imho, acceptable as makes presumptions on the user's browser, skill, etc. --AlisonW (talk) 13:03, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty certain the TfL roundel is copyright (see File:Roundelfamily.jpg). I'll raise the matter of File:Underground no-text.svg (which seems to have contradictory copyright/trademark information) on Commons. Tivedshambo (talk) 13:10, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

sandbox
i figured a sandbox might be a nice idea for this, so i created one here. It comes from one in my userspace. Hope you like it and will participate! Jake the Editor Man ( talk  ) 14:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Help...
Hello,

I'm using these icons at http://trams.wikia.com and they are not displaying correctly - in full size rather than smaller (see here and here.

All help would be fully apppreciated!

Thanks,

 BG  7   12:53, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorted. You had omitted setting the default icon size at BSpx. --AlisonW (talk) 13:48, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot!
 *  BG  7   14:08, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Icon request
Hello, I started working on Warsaw's transportation system and it seems it's pretty much unique, as there are several tiles missing: Any volunteers? :)  // Halibutt 00:23, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * rail tunnel and metro crossing, both underground (like 20px rotated 90 degrees; in Warsaw the metro goes N-S below the railway tunnel going E-W)
 * a major junction (BSicon INT.svg) in a tunnel (much like Warsaw's Warszawa Centralna)
 * the above with CPIC (commons:Category:Icons for railway descriptions/CPIC) in all directions (Warszawa Centralna is connected with another rail station, the Warszawa Śródmieście - both underground)
 * station in a cutting (below the ground) (opposite of an elevated one we already have)


 * Well maybe they are not missing. Some of them are only missing in WP:RDT/C.
 * already exists. tUKRZ20px
 * already exists. tINTBSicon tINT.svg
 * tINTCPIClBSicon tXINT-L.svg, tINTCPICmBSicon tXINT-M.svg, tINTCPICrBSicon tXINT-R.svg. Do you need a CPIC terminus too?
 * Sorry, but I don't understand this...
 * – Peter CX &amp;Talk 11:51, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


 * yes, the cuttings ones exist in some forms. Check on User:AlisonW/Rail Icons at the HSTCC ones (blue only currently). Is that what youi mean? --AlisonW (talk) 14:36, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks guys, I'm still new to this business :) (WKD, SKM (Warsaw), WWK). BTW, Alison, that's precisely what I meant. The Warszawa Śródmieście WKD station is a tad complicated to depict so I thought of something along those lines. It's located at the end of a tunnel, partially in it, and partially in a cutting with a roof.  // Halibutt 16:54, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Overbridge?
Can someone explain what exactly an "overbridge" is? --Jfruh (talk) 00:08, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * "A bridge over a road, railway, canal, etc" (WordWeb Online definition).
 * Curiously, it is not listed at 'AskOxford' or 'TheFreeDictionary', although I thought it was in common usage.
 * Is it actually jargon? -- EdJogg (talk) 13:13, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I've never heard it in US railfan contexts; maybe it's a British/Commonwealth thing? I guess I'm wondering what distinguishes an "overbridge" from a plain old bridge.
 * The OED lists it as verb (trans. To make a bridge over; to bridge. Also fig. and in extended use.) and noun (A bridge over a railway or road). The noun version dates to 1876 or 1898, depending on how strict a match you're after. It's been in consistent use throughout the C20. --Tagishsimon (talk) 17:45, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[out]

I came here because I was curious as to what the symbol meant on the diagram for the SPRINTER light rail service. I'm curious about how exactly the symbol should be used in railroad diagrams -- after all, some light rail and metro systems have extensive elevated sections; should the overbridge section be used throughout those? --Jfruh (talk) 17:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The use isn't consistent... you could either use the viaduct symbols (like SPRINTER or Docklands Light Railway) or just plain line symbols. Tom pw (talk) (review) 13:26, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * That depends on how much information one wishes to include. One can put as simply as the list of stations only, or indicate underground and elevated sections, or indicate roads crossed, sidings, etc. – Peter CX &amp;Talk 14:32, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Heathrow Services
I've posted my version of services to Heathrow Airport in my sandbox. Take a look and comment. Dkpintar (talk) 12:59, 27 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Correct in places, very wrong in others! For one, doesn't show subsurface sections correctly, two is that the line from the GW into Heathrow is shared by the two current services, and three that the Piccadilly doesn't offer a connection from T4 5o T5. It also leaves off the Heathrow Airtrack proposals which are currently out for comment and should be built in the next few years (hence why the current route diagram one looks different!) --AlisonW (talk) 13:09, 27 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Right you are. My diagrams tend to be more simplistic, so a lot of things are not shown. [my bad......]. I've not read much on the airtrack proposals, but i will now.  Thanks. Dkpintar (talk) 15:21, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

'King Leer
A user has raised a query at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Trains regarding the appearance of 'leer' within certain diagrams. Although the specific problem seems to have been resolved, it did raise the issue about usage of 'leer' in the diagrams.

I have since noticed that hovering the cursor over clear space in a diagram brings up the 'tooltip' showing "leer" or the name of the icon - this doesn't appear helpful, since the user is more likely to want some legend-type text rather than the icon filename.

Not sure that anything can be done about this,, but thought I'd bring it up here, as the topic has not (obviously) been discussed previously

EdJogg (talk) 00:26, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Notes on changes on Template:BS-overlap
(Due to the arguments in the above section,) in BS templates, when calling 'leer' or when simply leaving out in the icon parameter, File:BSicon .svg nor File:BSicon leer.svg will not be called. Instead, that table cell is simply left empty, with dimensions of BSpx×BSpx by default. A row which used to have n icons would still occupy the spaces for n icons. One should be careful that, for example, BS5 may appear as BS3 or BS if some icons were empty. Have not found error yet in my IE7.0.5730.13 and FF2.0.0.14. – Peter CX &amp;Talk 16:12, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry reverted... I can't solve the display problem for collapsible tables... – Peter CX &amp;Talk 17:09, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Proposed Central and Chelsea-Hackney Services
Based on reading up on things, i have made SIMPLE diagrams of what i foresee for services on the future Central Line and with the proposed Chelsea-Hackney Line. Just ideas in my sandbox. Check it out please.Dkpintar (talk) 13:17, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Your sandbox is empty... – Peter CX &amp;Talk 13:20, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * the diagrams are up now; it took a bit of "tweaking" to get the best presentation.Dkpintar (talk) 16:52, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I've taken them down now, but if anyone is still interested in them, let me know.82.24.135.204 (talk) 16:45, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Proper name
Does anyone know what file name I should upload this under? It would be useful for Reading to Plymouth Line (the M&SWJR Cheltenham to Andover Jn). Tom pw (talk) (review) 12:43, 18 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Probably eKRZudl, based on some dl-side branch icons like kKRZl+l BSicon KRZ+k12.svg and kBHFl+l BSicon BHF+k12.svg, and also the fact naming of the two series of crossing is highly related (kKRZul BSicon KRZu+k1.svg and KRZulf BSicon KRZulf.svg).
 * And btw a comment is that branches have to be made curved like KRZulf BSicon KRZulf.svg and KRZurg BSicon KRZurg.svg. Perhaps you would like to re-make one by combining the above two icons? – Peter CX &amp;Talk 10:58, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Icons replaced with consistently named ones. Wiebevl (talk) 09:00, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Unnecessary and so confusion "correction"
This article gives a sort of tutorial on using the icons. That entails virtually learning a new programming language with a certain added Freude. I feel there ought to be an easier way of drawing a railway line. But the example given here of code and map do not agree. Maybe the code for the Eurostar route as was was given and somehow a later Eurostar route map was moved into the article. Whatever example is first given (actual or notional) should be kept with its resultant map even if the physical track has changed.--SilasW (talk) 20:37, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry for the inconvenience. Updated just now. – Peter CX &amp;Talk 04:02, 30 May 2008 (UTC)


 * User "Peterwhy" says "Updated just now." If by apologising he claims some responsibility for the code-text/map discrepancy then perhaps more care is needed (he does claim, probably unwisely, to be 16-y-o)) but the error has not gone away. To test the current version I changed "|St. Pancras]]"s to "|St. Pancreas]]"s and found that next to one changed example code a  "St. Pancras" was shown. With one mistyped  "Panceras" a "Pancreas" came on the adjoining map. Maps in examples must be derived from the adjacent code in the text of the article. It would be better if rather than being a real line the example were made up so now cross-pollination could occur. To repeat: Maps must show what the nearby code says.--SilasW (talk) 13:04, 30 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Well you meant I have to be responsible for some kind of vandalism, such as those you tried, didn't you? I have double checked that the two route diagrams are the same as the two groups of codes shown, and also removed that connection to Eurostar, so that any changes in that remote template would not affect here. So any changes would be due to any changes from irresponsible editors, by changing only one of the two codes. So, sorry again, I am not going to be responsible for those vandalisms. – Peter CX &amp;Talk 14:44, 30 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I think "SilasW" would do well to remember that this is a volunteer effort, and to temper his/her approach to seeking to get improvements made to any tutorial provided here. There are better and worse ways of asking for improvements and asking for help...


 * Meanwhile, although there is some complexity to route diagrams, there is not that much. Most of us figured it out by looking at the source of the many hundreds of maps on the wiki. I'm puzzled that that approach has not struck "SilasW".


 * "SilasW" says "I feel there ought to be an easier way of drawing a railway line." I trust he/she is big enough to forgive us for working within the limitations of mediawiki, rather than implementing a simpler (but entirely non functioning) approach. --Tagishsimon (talk) 17:07, 30 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I am sorry that Peterwhy sees a hidden allegation of vandalism in my reply where none was made. If I see vandalism I make it clear and revert. I imagined that the map was picking up something from another place, which Peterwhy seems to have removed. Tagishsimon says we should live with the present drawing method because "most of us" (whoever they may be) "figured it out" (which suggests that clarity of explanation is not a feature of the system) "by looking at the many hundreds of maps" (which again indicates an absence of clear basic instructions). Someone who seems to have the same thought as I do has produced a program Spoorstrip which I've not yet tried to try. --SilasW (talk) 20:56, 30 May 2008 (UTC)


 * There's something you must learn from trial and error. We made it in our own sandbox page until we finished crafting our "masterpieces". Like copying the codes to your sandbox then make some change of the icons or anything else. if you really want some starter sample, just look at the table I placed here, a simplified form of Heathrow Express found in ZH WP. If you have any question regarding the diagram mechanics, ask here or in the relative icon talk page and most of us will try our best to respond. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 23:05, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

... For formating the whole collapsible table For creating that deep-blue header, accepting title and colour ... For forming the inner table
 * Also there is a sandbox (Route diagram template/Sandbox) for you and everyone to learn this "programming language". And if you rather not, still you may try that Spoorstrip WYSIWYG program, though the icon variety is probably less.
 * This "programming language" structure is of few parts for each diagram. Taking Sameboat's example:
 * }
 * }

For showing map icons and descriptions
 * – Peter CX &amp;Talk 12:26, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Overlays
There are also (3) styles of using the icons:
 * "normal" one icon per table cell
 * "overlay" overlaying (2) opaque icons (at least the top one with a transparent background) in the same table cell
 * "half-width" - (2) icons which represent 1/2 a feature being placed side-by-side

I have not used the overlay feature - but I see where it can greatly reduce the number of icons needed: many combination features can be done by overlaying a horizontal and vertical feature instead of creating separate icons for each, and the difference between an overpass and an underpass is which is the primary icon and which is the overlay (swapping them produces the other feature). Even many other adjacent/non-intersecting features could be created by overlaying two icons. For instance many features (like switches) could be created by overlaying an icon which is just the "curved part" to a "normal" straight section. LeheckaG (talk) 11:56, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Here is a simple example overlaying Straight Horizontal/Vertical Red/Green icons:

LeheckaG (talk) 16:54, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Coordinates
I have been pondering whether geographic coordinate templates can or should be placed in a route map? Besides the route map icons, the (3) columns to the right are "Mileage", "Note1" and "Note2". For the Alaska and Ohio route maps I have done, putting geographic coordinates in a route map would be a nice feature so that you can click on a coordinate and go to the GeoHack map page, or include GeoGroupTemplate in the article which contains the route map, and click on "Map all coordinates", and see them all "push-pinned" on a Google map. Thoughts? LeheckaG (talk) 16:54, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I feel the coordinates would look better if they were left or right aligned in their own column. I had tried them in the "Mileage" column but they "get in the way" between the map and the Station names.  They would probably be better flush right (the current coordinate template code overrides the column's flush right style). LeheckaG (talk) 17:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * There's an archived discussion on this subject somewhere. A user promoted it very fervently before, and I'm afraid my objection now is the same as it was then; co-ordinates are not easily human-readable, and make the table too wide. The idea of a schematic diagram is to show the relations of the parts of the line to one another, and not get hung up on the spatial geometry. Co-ordinates appear to confuse the issue too much. AlexTiefling (talk) 20:57, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Is readability/width the primary objection? Width could be dealt with by changing a Cascading Style Sheet (CSS) id or CSS class so that only a globe or another icon link is visible to go to the Wiki ToolServer/GeoHack page, but so that the coordinate numbers themselves are normally "hidden" unless asked for (something like collapsing tables - and ONLY if they asked for a.k.a. "Show", then they would "expand" or uncollapse to a size large enough to be clearly visible).  LeheckaG (talk) 21:27, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Unique icon
Is it possible to ask for a bridge icon? There is a situation on the CTRL, i'm not sure if it happens anywhere else, just after leaving St Pancras. The line enters a tunnel before going on a bridge. So it is a tunnel on a bridge (over the East Coast Main Line). Here is a satellite picture of this. Simply south (talk) 21:22, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * These may help: TUNNELa-ELEV BSicon_htSTRa.svg or TUNNELe-ELEV BSicon_htSTRe.svg. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 22:40, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Naming
I have been going through the (2556+) Commons:File:BSicon files. There are a handful with "bad" prefixes or "bad" suffixes which do not work with the current BS templates. They should be renamed or deleted. There are many with "non-standard" names which can work, but which probably should be renamed to a "standard" name.

In particular, the HUBnumber and SnumberBL series probably should have corner/direction/edge suffixes (l=left, r=right, f=forward, g=back, u=up, d=down, a=start, e=end, ...) rather than "cryptic" numbers where one needs a legend/look-up table rather than knowing what is a lower-right corner by the suffix (for instance). Canals, FootPaths, MotorWays, and Rail generally agree on some general points of naming, but there is some variation where they have some different suffixes for the same feature shape.

I am in the process of going through the current Commons:File:BSicon names and trying to identify which either "need" to be renamed (handful which do not or will not work with the current templates due to prefix or suffix), or "should" be renamed (ones which do not agree with the majority of other names).

I cut and pasted a list of all the Commons:File:BSicon file names, and created a table of the name "roots" (omitting the prefix and suffix) and wrote a program which splits each File: file name apart into (3) pieces: prefix, root, suffix. LeheckaG (talk) 11:56, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I read your comment in Alison's page as well. As for HUB, I created the HUB set before asking other Wikipedians because I need to have something concrete before bringing out the idea. As things turns out to grow faster than I expected (especially for JA WP.) We need a plan to apply the rename bot to work on those templates already use the images. About the naming rule, I use the number instead of alphabetic suffix because I didn't and don't have a good proposal for the icons. 1 thing disturbs me the most is the suffix of 2-way branches and junctions. I was confused by them, so everytime I use them I must check the catalog once again. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 01:20, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * i would like to see your resulting table for the prefix/name/suffix. i'm willing to make constructive comments. --dkpintar 82.24.135.204 (talk) 15:31, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I have a few files/lists available which I can post "somewhere?" (not sure where the best Wiki place would be?):
 * BSicon - a list of 2,556 "BSicon *.svg" file names with the "BSicon " and ".svg" parts removed.
 * There are (8) more/other Commons: files whose names begin with "BSicon" with "bad" names which the "BS" templates will not process:
 * (7) bad filename extensions, (1) missing a " " space after BSicon. (I made appropriate requests on Commons to deal with most of them)
 * ROOT - a list of 193 manually-determined "ROOT" names from "prefixROOTsuffix".
 * In general, prefix is presumed to be lower case (with some exceptions), ROOT uppercase (with some exceptions), and suffix is whatever is "left over".
 * "Whatever" list one wants from processing the above (2) files, I usually do one of a variety of "one-liner"s to retrieve what I am looking for.
 * I usually "expand" subsets of BSicon using ROOT to the form "prefix 'Tab' ROOT 'Tab' suffix" and then filter and sort.


 * Originally, I was extending upon AlisonW's work, trying to add and organize additional icons which AlisonW's templates did not include (under my user page):
 * User:LeheckaG/BSicon
 * I then realized the scope (2,556+ icon files) from:
 * Commons:Special:PrefixIndex/File:BSicon
 * I put in a request on Commons for one (.SVG) file extension to be renamed to (.svg), and nominated a few "duplicate" (svg.png) filename extensions to be deleted. I have been working from my downloaded list of file names locally, ideally it should be available from a "Special:" page which would then run a script to dynamically produce the list.  I have been working from my list to try and "cluster" them by name under:
 * Commons:User:LeheckaG/BSicon - This is a "Work in Progress" so "subject to change".
 * I wrote a more general (than the ones I have seen other people use) purpose template:
 * Commons:Template:BSdoc
 * which accepts the "ROOTsuffix" portion of a "prefixROOTsuffix" name followed by a list of up to (8) prefixes and can be used more than once in a WikiTable row. It dumps out a portion of a WikiTable row with those BSicon images (combining prefix and ROOTsuffix).  Using the BSdoc template, I am working on "clustering" together icons with "similar" names and documenting the "one-offs".  When it is obvious that an icon should be deleted or renamed, I will be making the appropriate requests on Commons.
 * As or when I get something which is more "stable", I will put it in:
 * Commons:Category:BSicon/Documentation


 * I intend on writing a more general "overlay" template which can overlay more than (2) BSicon images. I have been debating whether it should accept several or have the ability to "nest" or both.  After I have it thought through more, I will post about it and overlays.
 * Likewise for the series of half-width "d" prefixes and how to better handle them.


 * Rail icons presume the direction of travel is from the top of the page to bottom, and their suffixes are relative to the traveller.
 * Many/some canal icon names seem to be from the viewer's point of view (or the direction of travel would be from the bottom to the top of the page).


 * I do not mind sharing, but I am a little bit afraid of having "too many cooks" until I complete documenting the "as is".
 * After we have the current icons documented, then it would be appropriate to start some discussions about getting several renamed (or deleted - there are a few which are "the same" with different names) for consistency.
 * Specifically, if people create or rename too many of them while I am trying to "cluster" and document them, it will be more difficult.


 * I am curious what other's thoughts are are being able to have fewer icons, but being able to modify them by either overlaying (2) or more, or by using CSS classes or CSS ids, or having 1/2 or 1/4 icons? i.e. for instance, having (1) vertical .svg and (1) horizontal .svg icon (whatever they are named) and then being able to change them by either using overlays or setting a CSS class or CSS id.  The .svg color would be "neutral" and one could set red, green, blue, or a pattern/style by setting a class.  That way one set of icons could be "painted" whatever color or pattern/style was needed when they are used.  Or using overlays - there would be a (1) horizontal bridge icon and (1) vertical bridge icon, but they would just have the "bridge" and not either of the (2) routes.  One would first place the one on bottom, then the "bridge" then the one on top.  So the need for many individual icons would be reduced, and (some) existing icons would then have more flexible uses.


 * If people prefer having "pre-defined" features, one way would be to do the overlays as I suggested, but then create (1) or more templates which would accept a "standard" name and then "build" the icon without the user needing to know how it was built. By doing it that way, there would not be "gaps" in the available icons.  To implement such, new versions of the BS templates would be created where the parameter supplied to a "route map" template would get passed on to another template which then built up the overlay (instead of how it gets used now to build up an icon filename), so it could be done "transparently" to the current usage.  Although a "new and improved" series of route map templates could provide more functionality.  Either way, the benefit would be that there would be more standard library of "virtual" icons to choose from, the "penalty" would be that some icons should have more standard names than the ones which they have now.

LeheckaG (talk) 16:51, 1 August 2008 (UTC)


 * wow! lots of work there and i shall look it over. i, for one, would prefer the icons to be pre-determined on a list/table. to me, over lays would create a lot more work and effort, taking away from the already [sometimes] work of making the route diagram.


 * i'd also like to add that the idea of a "neutral" icon and the ability to colour it as needed using a "setting a CSS class or CSS id. The .svg color would be "neutral" and one could set red, green, blue, or a pattern/style by setting a class. That way one set of icons could be "painted" whatever color or pattern/style was needed when they are used." would be ideal.

Dkpintar (talk) 10:14, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I am in the process of moving them over to BSicon one "ROOT" at a time (I "audit" them as I move them - making sure that the count of file names and count of icons match). Wiki has some practical/technical page size limits, so I have been trying to keep the page sizes down while trying to cluster common ROOTS or styles together (so one might have to go through a few sub-pages to find a particular icon.  For now, I have back-links on the page to Commons:User:LeheckaG/BSicon and En:User:LeheckaG/BSicon which will "go away" as I complete the BSicon page(s).  LeheckaG (talk) 10:51, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * About your aim to reduce BSicon quantity by creating neutral icons "with setting a CSS class or CSS id," the answer is nothing but discouraging. As far as I know the only way to control the CSS class in the SVG file (in WIKI) is via JAVAscript, that say, most of us has no accessibility to that realm. If you actually know the way to achieve, I would sincerely like to learn. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 13:54, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * My goals are:
 * consistency (in naming)
 * reducing complexity - through organizing icons/names (possibly through CSS, overlays, or templates)
 * extending the (virtual) icon set so that it is rectilinear (at least in clusters) so that it is not a "sparse matrix" (i.e. reduce non-existent icons)
 * I do not know if the "glue" is there in Common.css or the various Skins (Monobook.css, ...), but I had read somewhere that SVG support modification through CSS classes, searching for +SVG+CSS I found (on the W3.Org home of the SVG specification):
 * SVG Chapter 6 Styling
 * SVG Chapter 6 Styling and CSS
 * SVG supports style sheets modifying colors and other "accessibility" features, but as I said, I am not sure of the Wiki "glue" to make it work.
 * I will do some local (CSS/SVG) experiments/tests when I get a chance (either after I finish the documentation on the BSicon files or if I need a "break" from other things).


 * My guess it that:
 * SVG icon files would need to be "localized" to Wiki, so that they "know" about common.css and Skins (Monobook.css, ... i.e. share the same stylesheets) for them to use a common "id=" tag, the article or template calling up the BSicon *.svg would set an id= within a div around the calling up of the SVG file. Depending on how Wiki calls/serves up SVG files, there are several possible behaviors.   LeheckaG (talk) 15:47, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I know your point, I tried myself without any success. The documents in w3.org isn't too helpful (maybe just I can't find the exact material I want...) So here's the most important explanation I read in WD-SVG-19990812/styling.html:

But I found no content about "linking" an external css stylesheet (a ".css" document I guess) into the SVG file. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 23:18, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

"Connection"
I guess "corresponding" &c come from "Anschluss" which has wide meanings. The French (in their eternal must-be-different-ness) use "correspondance" for a connection in a journey. "Connection" seems a more idiomatic translation.--SilasW (talk) 21:12, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Spoorstrip
I do not know how many create Route maps by hand versus how many use "Spoorstrip.exe" (Spoorstrip a t GMail.Com), I do not use it so I do not know what it can or cannot do. Specifically: LeheckaG (talk) 16:54, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * When new route map icons are uploaded to Commons; if, how, or when does Spoorstrip change?
 * Does Spoorstrip handle overlays?
 * Does Spoorstrip handle "all" the various BS templates (I guess they go up to 8 icons plus: Mileage, Note1 and Note2) and their alternate "-2" format which drops the Mileage and places Note1 and Note2 on opposite sides of the map strip) ?


 * i used spoorstrip when i was just starting in diagramming. i found you could make all sorts of icons on your own to fit what you needed, but they would only work in the spoortstrip template. the originator did not not seem to interested in expanding and fixing his icons; i made an attempt to do so, which i would have shared with others, but it got to be too big a job (now i know how alisonW must feel).  so now  i have learned to use the BS/wiki icons more effectively and have left spoorstrip in a file somewhere. dkpintar82.24.135.204 (talk) 15:23, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I just got a [new] copy of the spoorstrip program. i have not looked at it in detail, but, again, there are too many icons for motorway and navigation.  although some of the icons in green can be of value to our wiki diagramming.  i'll do a comparison of an older version with the new and give you the results. Dkpintar (talk) 06:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Issues with Template:Railway line header
The rules="all" html attribute used in Template:Railway line header is causing html table borders to show in the Opera 9.5 browser, and I believe it can be removed without any other adverse effect. Please see Template talk:Railway line header for further explaination and to comment. Thanks →Ollie (talk • contribs) 01:07, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * One thing to add, since template:RLH has been protected and sysops declined the unprotect request. In order to modify the template, most of us should express agreement in the template:RHL talk page to justify the edit request in request for page protection. If you want to examine the effect of removing rules=all, you may check my Railway line header1 which has been created for including the RDT in the infobox correctly. Examples such as Sochi Light Metro and Seattle Center Monorail. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 03:08, 23 August 2008 (UTC)


 * This change has now been made. →Ollie (talk • contribs) 22:33, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

New icons...
Please help me to find the correct title for these 4 new ones:

Thanks in advance. - Erik Baas (talk) 14:56, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Problem solved, thanks to Axpde on commons. - Erik Baas (talk) 21:46, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Kochelseebahn table not displaying properly
I translated the Kochelseebahn article from de.wikipedia, including the height data that required a new template, but the table doesn't display properly. In particular there are grey cells around the icons and words which shouldn't appear. Can anyone help? I intend to translate a lot more, so need to get this right from the word go.

Also the original German header colour didn't copy across properly. Less of an issue, but it would be nice if it were the same. --Bermicourt (talk) 17:18, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Changed the first line of the diagram from  {| class="prettytable float-right" align=right  to  {| . Seem to work now. --Stewart  (talk)  18:07, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

RH alignment after a collapsible section
Is there any help for this? I used BS7s with right justified notes for a map. In the BS7s was a collapsible stretch of BS5s (as there is no collapsible BS7) for left justified comments about future track changes.

Right justified notes in the second set of BS7s align on themselves but not on the earlier ones. The BS5 notes are left justified but making them RJ seems not to "correct" the later BS7 notes.--SilasW (talk) 10:04, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * This problem exists in all of the BS#-startCollapsible row templates. The cause is those templates "close" the table and start everything anew. No wonder that the justification of the following rows reset. The new BS7-startCollapsible open another collapsible table within a row. Practically nothing with the collapsible section format changed except for the end of collapsible section no longer requires BS-endCollapsible but simply a " |} ." I'm not changing other BS#-startCollapsible templates right now because they're highly transcluded. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 13:46, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I thought I had seen a warning that might have been pertinent but I didn't find it again in the mizmaze of BS template articles. Thank you from another side for your reply and action.--SilasW (talk) 14:50, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * So it's time to revise the collapsible templates syntax. Maybe the next week if no more objection I will rewrite the BS-startCollapsible, BS2-startCollapsible, BS3-startCollapsible, BS4-startCollapsible, BS5-startCollapsible, BS6-startCollapsible and BS-endCollapsible.


 * BS8-startCollapsible is also available now, end the collapsible section with |} as well. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 03:31, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Added syntax: multiple icon widths within 1 row
I have revised row templates including all BS#, BS#-startCollapsible and BS#-2. The change will not affect the existing route diagrams. But now you have the option to include both full-wide (square) and half-wide (rectangular) icons in 1 row with the correct scaling to you preference. It's similar to the overlay parameter but the width for the icon in (left) first column is still named PX. PX2 for column 2, PX3 column 3, etc. If PX(1) parameter is filled but PX# blanked, that PX# will apply to the PX input. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 16:01, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Help needed on Template:Alnwick branch line
Alnwick branch line, reproduced on the right, looks to me like a dog's dinner. Could I invite someone familiar enough with its construction to fettle it? thanks --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:44, 15 October 2008 (UTC)


 * As a non-English native speaker, I don't comprehend your true thoughts behind the phrases "dog's dinner" and "to fettle." Please specify your need. If you prefer to narrow the template, simply move the "Newcastle and Berwick Railway" to the next row and remove the "towards". -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 06:46, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

[Edit] on diagrams
Is it possible to add an Edit option to the headers so you can edit a line diagram directly? Railwayfan2005 (talk) 18:36, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 * We could change the  bit to show .  Chris DHDR 14:13, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes please!!! Railwayfan2005 (talk) 08:52, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * ✅ Done (after one slip though!). Chris DHDR 09:14, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Are theese templates used for really operated lines or for lines, which some company have pretensions for?
Hello! We have such sutiation: there are some rail lines, which were operated by some company (A). A few tens years ago this company was damaged and divided into four companies (B, C, D and E). B operating first part of lines, C - second, D - third, E - fourth respectively. Some another users and I made templates for lines, that are operated by companies B, C, D and E respectively. Piquancy of situation is consists in that fact, that one of the company says, that first part of lines, which are operated by B, belongs to company C. One anonymous user is making edits for a long time: he adds lines of company B to template for company C and says that company C doesn't agree with company B, that operating first part of lines for a few tens years and this part of lines belongs to company C. I said him, that common sense tells us, that we should unclude in templates lines, that are really operated by corresponding companies, because readers of theese templates are interested in real rail lines, not in juridical disputes of companies. I would like to mark next fact:
 * Company A operated all parts of lines, but this company was damaged
 * After damaging of company and its dividing into companies B, C, D and E first part of lines was always operated by company B (for a long time)
 * First part of lines was never really operated by company C: before damaging of company A this part was operated by company A, after damaging - by company B
 * First and second part of lines even are not connected with each other

The question is: should we include lines of company B to template of company C because company C says that first part of lines belongs to company C, not to company B? I would like to mark once more: juridical dispute continues for a long time and they have not found a decision of this problem, but lines are really operated by company B and we have a template with lines, operated of company B. I think, we should say about this dispute in the articles about companies B and C, but not in templates with rail lines. Dinamik (talk) 20:41, 12 November 2008 (UTC)


 * We have that type of problem in Great Britain. Lines were built by private railway companies in the 19th & 20th century; we nationalised them; and then broken them up and privatised them. We have articles on the historical railway companies, perhaps in your case we could call it, say, the "Las Planas to Pont Michel Tramway" or company A, etc; and we have separate articles on the various Lines, in your case Company B, Company C, etc.Pyrotec (talk) 21:02, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Excuse me, could you check if I understand you right? You said, that we should make the template about company A with all lines (I agree with you) and templates with lines, that are really operated nowadays by companies B, C, D and E and we shouldn't inlude the lines of company B, which are disputed, to template of company C, because company C doesn't really operating that lines, didn't you? Dinamik (talk) 22:20, 12 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I did not read your question properly. Yes, Company A can have all the lines on a historical basis. Companies B, C, D and E can have the lines that they currently operate and/or claim to own, provided that there are references to verify these claims. For the disputed lines, there are several cases to consider:
 * Wikipedia requires WP:Verify and WP:NPOV, so if company C is claiming to own the lines that really belong to company B, then suitable references should be provided to justify such a claim that Company C owns the line. If the claims cannot be verified then other authors are able to remove these unverified claims.
 * The other case is conflicting claims. There may be verifiable references that state that company C never owned the line, it was owned by A and B; and other verifiable statements that the line was owned by A and then C, not B. In this case all claims need to be added to the line article, with suitable verification; together with statements pointing out that ownership of the line is disputed between several companies.
 * I hope this clarifies my earlier reply.Pyrotec (talk) 22:43, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
 * What should we do if we have realible sources for next consistent facts?
 * After damaging of company A company B started operating first part of lines de-facto
 * After damaging of company A company C started to own first part of lines de-jure and second part of lines de-facto
 * However, company C has never controlled first part of lines de-facto; de-facto first part of lines has been operated by company B
 * Juridical disputes about ownership of this lines doesn't finish
 * "Companies B, C, D and E can have the lines that they currently operate and/or claim to own" - what should we choose for template of company C - lines, that company C operating or lines claim to own? The problem is in this question namely. Company C in some jurisdiction ows first part of line de-jure, company B ows first part of line de-jure and operating first part of lines de-facto. It is clear, that we should say about theese disputes in the text of the articles, but should we include lines, which are owned by company C de-jure, but not de-facto, to route diagram template of company C, or not? Dinamik (talk) 23:10, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

It might help if you gave an example, but it seems like what you're saying is that B either leased or acquired trackage rights over part of C's line. If B is the only company that operates over the line, it would normally be shown on a map as part of B's system, but if both B and C operate over it, it would be shown as part of the system of the owner - in this case C - with a different color or line style on B's system map. I don't know if there's a standard route diagram symbol for trackage rights. --NE2 23:27, 12 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Allow me to clarify and further elaborate as the above text is very difficult to read (looks as if came out from some automatic translator).
 * We aren't dealing with a legal conflict between two rail companies fight which one has the right to oparate on a given track.
 * The relevent template is Template:Georgian Railway. I have noticed that user:Dinamik has moved route diagram from the article about Georgian Railway (the national rail operator of the country in Europe, not the US state) into a seperate template, but in the proccess has removed a roughly 210 km long segment in the Georgia's Autonomous Republic of Abkhazia which is presently controlled by Russian backed rebels. I restored the line marking it as closed to indicate that the county is presently unable to run trains on this line and also marked properly the international borders as eGRENZE rather then GRENZE, however for the last few days user:Dinamik is trying to revert those changes, arguing either that the Georgian Railways aren't operating traffic on the line (which is preciesly why I have marked the line as closed on the route diagram) then that the line does not belong to the Georgian Railways.
 * While I would like to assume good faith I sadly fear that this acitivty is politically motivated. --212.76.33.75 (talk) 23:33, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh, it's one of the Georgian disputes. Do we really need a route diagram template for this? I think an actual map would be a lot more helpful. Then you can do what's normally done on a political map and mark Abkhazia as disputed, with a note that Georgian Railway doesn't current operate there. The diagram template would probably fit better on articles about the individual lines, such as the main Tbilisi-Poti line, and whatever the line in Abkhazia is de facto. (Is there an article about this company?) What's needed here is better articles describing the lines. --NE2 23:36, 12 November 2008 (UTC)


 * A map would be great. As for your question there's an article Rail transport in Abkhazia. --212.76.33.75 (talk) 23:41, 12 November 2008 (UTC)


 * OK - given that the Georgian Railway did not operate the line since the early 1990s, I don't think it makes sense to include details about it on the article about the current system. Even if the Georgian Railway officially owns the line, it's been de facto leased to the Abkhazian Railway since then. There should definitely be better links between the articles, such as a link from the Georgian Railway template to Rail transport in Abkhazia. --NE2 23:48, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I tried putting such a note in the template but it makes it too large, the link should rather be in the article text. --212.76.33.75 (talk) 00:28, 13 November 2008 (UTC)


 * You may use the ref tag to include your notes and ensure that the article which transcluding the route template has a reflist section. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 08:58, 13 November 2008 (UTC)