Wikipedia talk:Route diagram template/Catalog of pictograms/watercourses

Automatic Sluice symbol
If I could image what the symbol should look like I would have made one- has anyone any ideas- I need two on the Medway Navigation!? .
 * Would one of the weir symbols not do, with the text automatic sluice used to differentiate it? Bob1960evens (talk) 23:53, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Water Extraction point
Medway Navigation has a point that is used for extraction into the Bewl Water Storage Reservoir. Any suggestion on how to represent it? 
 * Have you seen the uFEEDER and uRESR symbols? They are normally used for reservoirs that feed a canal, but could equally be used when the navigation feeds the reservoir. Bob1960evens (talk) 23:51, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I have now, the point of Medway Navigation, is that we have a uSTR with some side equipment that then pumps water in a pipe uphill to a Reservoir on a minor tributary. uFEEDER could feed a mill pond but looks like a visible stream. uRESR doesn't have a uSTR, is coloured as a ue- but does hold promise as a base symbol. Not convinced. ClemRutter (talk) 11:24, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * They were designed to be used together, and were coloured light blue because they are not navigable. Bob1960evens (talk) 23:19, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Lock and Weir, Weir and Lock
One of the features of a navigation is the lock with overflow weir to right or left. If one chooses to represent it it takes 3 verticals tiles. So I haven't. Do we need an extra symbol, being that this is 'one' structure- or is this too fiddly. Thoughts? .


 * I have done several navigations and all of the locks on the Thames, and have generally used the three lines approach, because there are cuts where major bridges cross before the cut rejoins the main channel, locks where there are more than two channels, locks where rivers join the main channel before the cut does, and lots of other combinations, so have not built a lock and weir symbol although I have pondered it at times. Bob1960evens (talk) 23:49, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Interesting one. I have seen those complex structures too. I walk the path rather than than float. It is the simple ones that puzzle me, where lock and weir are integral structures- on the Medway we have Oak Weir Lock and Sluice Weir Lock, where even the names are combined. It seems to be so inefficient to use three rows for one feature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ClemRutter (talk • contribs) 11:41, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I have produced a side weir and joiner, so a weir need only take up one row, but it still takes up two columns, as an attempt to put both on the same icon looked too fiddly. So far there is only a side weir for flow down the page, but I will add weirs for flow up. Bob1960evens (talk) 20:46, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Flow up added. Bob1960evens (talk) 17:55, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Modifications to A-road bridge
I notice that the uAKRZu symbol has been modified from the red British road symbol to the red and yellow German autobahn symbol but User:Wongm. I do not mind either, but User:Wongm has not altered any of the other symbols that use the British red road, and there are now maps which have the same type of road represented in two quite different ways, depending on whether it goes over or under a canal, or over an unnavigable waterway. Should we be consistent? Bob1960evens (talk) 20:56, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I suspect it's time to create a UK version, called uAROADu (to match existing uAROADo)and then to change all UK maps. I think we should keep to familiar UK colours. Oosoom Talk 13:50, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I have created a uAROADu. When I have changed the maps, I'll sort out the green and light blue symbols too. Bob1960evens (talk) 22:07, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * All maps changed, I think. Green and light blue ones next! Bob1960evens (talk) 22:04, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Green and light blue ones done. Bob1960evens (talk) 08:09, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Moving icons to Commons
I'd like to introduce in the Italian Wikipedia these diagrams but I've found that some symbols aren't in Commons. Why not to transfer there them? I never did this operation and I'm not exactly sure how to do. Thanks. --Ivanfurlanis (talk) 10:57, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Is it one or two symbols, or lots? If it is a small number, you can right click on the symbol, choose "Save target as" from the menu, and save it on your PC. You can then go to Commons, choose "upload new image", and select the symbol you saved. You should credit the symbol to the original author if you have not made significant changes to it. Bob1960evens (talk) 22:13, 1 May 2008 (UTC)


 * As Bob says you can do this yourself by saving and re-uploading to Commons. If you do this then you should request that the original be deleted from en.Wikipedia by use of a correctly dated NowCommons template. You do this by adding: at the top or bottom of the text. You should copy across the full description and major edit history from the original, and (unless the icon copyright is Public Domain) you *must* preserve the original copyright licensing description and credit the previous creator and amenders. There is a tool to help with doing the move. See Moving images to the Commons.
 * As a courtesy to the creator of each image, you might consider asking if they want to do the move as their user name would then be credited as the creator on Commons. However, this is not required. Good luck. Oosoom Talk 10:09, 2 May 2008 (UTC)


 * A message to all icon creators: put them on Commons - the route diagrams are taking off around the world! Oosoom Talk 10:11, 2 May 2008 (UTC)


 * But the jobs not finished till the paper works done! Where is the index- or back link to this page? I would do this if this page were complete. By accident, I have found a lovely icon of a Watermill that is not indexed here. And as a courtesy shouldn't the page description be at least translated into German. ClemRutter (talk) 15:08, 2 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Perhaps the symbols could be incorporated into this user page of rail transport icons, or something similar? Regards, Lynbarn (talk) 15:25, 2 May 2008 (UTC)


 * This is not as easy as it seems. I have moved BSIcon_ueSTRlf / lg / rf / rg to Commons, but when I try to mark the originals as "Moved to Commons" it says they are transcluded by User:AlisonW/Rail Icons. I have left a note on that page, but will not try moving any more until I can understand how this can be resolved. Bob1960evens (talk) 08:53, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I have moved a few more over to Commons, but there are lots which report This page is currently protected from editing because it is transcluded in the following page, which is protected with the "cascading" option: User:AlisonW/Rail Icons when you try to edit the image page. I have left another note on that page. Bob1960evens (talk) 09:16, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I eventually asked AlisonW to remove the protection on her page, and have now uploaded 47 icons to Commons. Commons Helper screwed up on uxKRZun and ugKRZun, and I cannot upload or copy them, because it says the file is corrupt. uxABZlf was already on Commons, so I marked it as such. uxHSTa is also on Commons, but is slightly different to the one on en:Wikipedia, so I have not marked it. The umlaut in ugWBRUCKE screws up Commons Helper, and it was not my icon, so I have not moved that one. I have not moved uxJUNCld-uSTRlf, since it can be created using overlays. Apart from that, all done, I think. Bob1960evens (talk) 13:52, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Not quite as done as I had hoped. 11 of the images have not been deleted from en:Wikipedia, because a bot detected they were not identical (although they look the same). I have left notes to say it is safe to delete them, but 14 days later they are still there. (ugHSTa, ugBASINl, ugBASINr, ueGRENZE, uxABZlf, ugBRUCKE, ugKRZu, uxgKRZu, ugLOCKSu, ugLOCKSl, ugLOCKSr). Not sure what to do next. Bob1960evens (talk) 20:43, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Have you gone to :en:, found the file- selected edit this file with external program- in the editor over written that image, with the one from :commons:, and resaved it? Thus you have the commons file on commons and now also :en:. Now re flag the :en: for deletion. Don't mean to patronise- but when logic fails, using a different type of logic can succeed- even when there is no logic in it!   ClemRutter (talk) 00:45, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

BSicon_ugWHARF broken
Someone has redirected ugWHARF to uwhfSTR on Commons. I cannot find out how to undo that. No pages link to it, and I cannot upload it to en:Wikipedia either. Several pages link to ugWHARF, and the redirection does not work in the maps. Pages include Rolle Canal, and there are no doubt others, but there is no way of finding out now it is redirected. Help! Bob1960evens (talk) 23:23, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I have (temporarily?) deleted the redirect of ugWHARF to uwhfSTR on Commons and tried various purges. Perhaps this will eventually show up as a missing icon.
 * At this stage I suspect that these two icons have been noticed and marked as duplicates and the ugWHARF one deleted (or "moved") to the undesirable name. The redirect was set up (perhaps automatically - Commons:Commons:Village pump) by Commons admin User:Siebrand who did the delete of the duplicate. Still investigating. Oosoom Talk 11:10, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The purges seem to have taken effect. There are now lots of maps with redlinks to ugWHARF. If ugWHARF is the desired name then perhaps User:Siebrand could be contacted to undelete it and delete the other. Oosoom Talk 11:21, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I have uploaded a new ugWHARF, which I drew from scratch, so it is unlikely to be the same, and hence should not be marked as a duplicate automatically. At the moment, en:Wiki still seems to think it is redirected to ugwhfSTR. Bob1960evens (talk) 16:02, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Seems OK to me. If there are any still pointing to the wrong image then bring up the map page and add ?action=purge at the end of the http: address in the address bar and press enter. They should sort themselves out in the end anyway. Oosoom Talk 20:37, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Collapsible sections
There seems to be a problem with collapsible sections again. I have added three to Template:Leeds and Liverpool Canal map, and the first and third work well, but the middle one throws all the alignment out, and changes the width of the map. Also, entries like "22-25" in the lock numbers column mess it up. Any suggestions? Bob1960evens (talk) 21:25, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

The mapneeded=full switch
Some time ago there was some debate about whether a diagram was a map, (on the Sheffield and South Yorkshire Navigation page), and the mapneeded=yes switch was extended to include mapneeded=full. At the time, that displayed an alternative message on the article talk page, and did not appear on the articles needing route maps page. However, something seems to have happened to it, as the SSYN has now re-appeared on the articles needing route maps page, and shows both the old and new map request on the talk page. Does anyone know what has happened? Bob1960evens (talk) 23:34, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

The table of icons
I am in the process of changing the template that shows a row of icons on the main page. At the moment it uses a canalrow2 template, which always shows a symbol in the first column, and shows a symbol in any column that has a "j" in the appropriate place. For symbols where there is no symbol for the first column, it uses a canalrow4 template, which ignores the first column. I have created a canalrow template, which has an extra column at the beginning, so you can use it for both, by putting a "j" if there is a symbol in the first column and leaving it blank if not. Then both types of symbol are handled in the same way. However, I have just discovered there are some canalrow3 templates, which cater for symbols which do not have an initial "u" in the name. (Most waterway symbols have names like uKRZo, but there are some that do not, like UKRZo, which is essentially a railway symbol.) I may try to cater for all three cases. Bob1960evens (talk) 10:40, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I have replaced the canalrow3 template with a plainrow template, for symbols with no initial "u", so that the syntax is the same as for the canalrow. Bob1960evens (talk) 12:27, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

new names and new icons
As you might have mentioned, I've changed some of "your" lists and waterways. I started eight months ago to give "system" back to railroad templates, and this includes the blue set for light railway icons. Since you are (ab- ;-) using those icons as well, you might be concerned by my work, but be asured, the outcome will sooth everyones needs. Actually I uploaded several hundred new blue icons for many purposes ... Take care! a x p de Hello!  15:06, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

P.S.: Among all those icons there might be some which you maybe find useful for your needs ;-) a x p de  Hello!  15:20, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Just had a quick look at your list, File:BSicon uxgUKRZo.svg and File:BSicon uxgUKRZu.svg are inconistently named ('o' has green straigt, 'u' across). I'd suggest to have prefix 'ug' same as 'um', but with green instead of red line across, 'mg' should be red straight and green across, and 'g' alone green/green ... hmmm, but what to use for green straight and blue across? Ideas? a x p de Hello!  15:41, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Logically you are right, but nobody has found a map which needs a derelict waterway to cross under an un-navigable one, so the icons have not been created, and probably will not be. Railways seem to cross each other much more than canals do. Bob1960evens (talk) 21:44, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * You're probably right, iron is far more easy to handle 'cause of a big advantage, at normal temperatures it's not fluid ;-)
 * If you get along without green below light blue I'm fine with it, too! Hmmm, how about a footpath underpassing a pond as in the middle of big avenues ?-) a x p de  Hello!  22:57, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Green, green, green are all my clothes^W icons ;-)
I just had look through commons:Category:Icons for railway descriptions/set green, there are five different colors of green!

The second and third icon are used for two tramway lines in Nantes (France), a busline(!) in Finnland and a metro line in bg-WP. The last two are only used for the Russian Metro of Charkow.

Maybe it's possible to join all those usages and use just two different colors, your and a lighter one ... just a thought ;-) a x p de  Hello!  10:43, 10 April 2009 (UTC)


 * See Commons:Talk:BSicon/Colors. Useddenim (talk) 00:18, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Canal onto river icon request
There are many occasions where a canal exits/ends onto a river (Gloucester and Sharpness Canal onto the River Severn at Sharpness, etc). I don't have a SVG editing package, so please could someone who does create some icons for this, using as the river? Many thanks. David Bailey (talk) 09:35, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I am happy to knock one out but what is wrong with the way that Manchester Ship Canal does it?--ClemRutter (talk) 11:45, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I think that a problem arises in that we have an icon-set for waterways, but then use WASSER icons for rivers on all of the railway diagrams. Where the two overlap there is no consistency.  How do we distinguish between man-made waterways and natural rivers?  The Manchester Ship Canal example just uses waterway icons for the river.  Route diagram template/Catalog of pictograms/watercourses gives the impression that waterways icons should only be used for canals (man-made waterways).  The diagram for Manchester Ship Canal should use icons based on WASSER for those sections where it overlaps with the River Mersey.  I'd be interested to hear other people's comments on this problem.  David Bailey (talk) 13:00, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Generally, I use the dark blue icons for rivers which are navigable, and the light blue ones for rivers which are not. The problem with trying to use WASSER icons is we would end up needing a complete set, including curves, junctions, and everything. Normally the text is adequate to show that it is a river. Bob1960evens (talk) 07:30, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm with Bob on using the dark blue for navigable bits, and lighter blue to show where not to take your boat (unless it's a canoe!). That was particularly necessary for the River Stort and River Lee, where it jumps back and forth from canal to river.  Ron h jones (Talk) 22:20, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * See the new icon family.

What do you think about ...
Hi folks, this afternoon I created some water icons, but I'm not sure whether I should upload those:

Cheers a x p de  Hello!  23:36, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not sure either. As explained above, I tend to use the standard blue or light blue icons for rivers, depending on whether they are navigable or not. In my opinion, they make for a neater map. Bob1960evens (talk) 16:14, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Two of the original icons seem to have disappeared, and the third displays in huge format - temporarily commented out. Bob1960evens (talk) 22:20, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

uKRZuy and uKRZquy named wrong
Hi folks, uKRZuy and uKRZquy are improper names, because KRZ is reserved for rail crossing rail. I don't like "ROAD" either, but since those icons aren't used in the original project, go ahead with it ... maybe call those "uBROADu" and uBROADqu" according to "uBROADo"? a x p de  Hello!  09:40, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

P.S.: Same with "uKRZun", "uHKRZun" and "uKRZuw"! a x p de Hello!  09:42, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

correct namespace?
Hi folks, me again :-)

just thought about the namespace of this particular page. Actually, this page is no template, it's an overview on a special "project". Shouldn't this page be moved to Waterways legend or something alike? a x p de Hello!  09:46, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

de:Template:Flusssymbole
For your information I just found a German waterways project with several additional icons, maybe you can make use of it! Cheers a x p de  Hello!  21:35, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Overlay icons not working
Does anyone know why the overlay icons do not display correctly in preview mode? The appear half a square to the right, and it makes it really difficult to see if the map will be ok, but they are fine again when I save the changes, and view the template in non-edit mode. Bob1960evens (talk) 17:39, 5 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Maybe a problem with Internet Exploiter? German wikipedia decided some time ago not to use overlay because of problems with that Micro$oft crap ... a x p de  Hello!  21:33, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

License of these symbols
Would anyone be able to confirm that all of these symbols are Public Domain or have another suitable license? The River Parrett article which includes a map/plan built from these icons, is currently under review for FAC at Featured article candidates/River Parrett/archive1 & one of the reviewers is raising concerns about the licensing of the map. If anyone had any comments about this (or other aspects of the article) I'm sure they would be welcome.&mdash; Rod talk 16:37, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * On commons we came to the conclusion that (most) BSicons are PD-ineligible since those are just some colored geometrical objects ... a x p de  Hello!  09:51, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

New icons needing hover text
The problems with overlay icons seem to be expanding, in that they often appear to be in the wrong position on maps within articles (particularly if using IE8). I have therefore produced a set of branch icons with all possible variants of green with blue and light blue. Does anyone know how to put the hover text on them? There also seems to be a problem with the fact that waterway and tramway icons are interchangeable, so we can have "Urban straight track" joined to "Waterway turning to right". Finally, I understand that the left and right designation was originally based on reading the map from the top downwards, but who really reads maps standing on their head? Is there not a case for right meaning "on the right as you look at it", rather than right meaning "on the left as you look at it"? Bob1960evens (talk) 22:06, 15 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I have found the answer to hover text. There is a Template:BS-alt that holds the text. I remain unconvinced about the use of left and right, particularly when it applies to sailing a boat from the top of the page downwards on an un-navigable waterway.Bob1960evens (talk) 10:46, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

prefixorder 'tg' vs 'gt'
Hi there,

you might consider to use the order 'gt' instead of 'tg' in order to follow the naming policy of the original project. The prefixes indicating the type of the track usually goes first (u, e, x, m or g), then the type of icon (b, d or v) and at last the layer (h or t). If I counted correctly there are only four icons which have to be changed, so what do you think? a x p de Hello!  10:55, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I have now created icons with gt, rather than tg, and altered all pages that use them, including the legend on the Welsh, Russian and Japanese wikis. I have not been able to delete the tg icons from Commons yet, as they are used by two User pages which display vast tables of icons. Bob1960evens (talk) 17:25, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Bob, It ain't going to happen that way - User:LeheckaG has not edited for two years here or Commons. Time for some boldness - I've tagged...
 * File:BSicon utgSTR.svg
 * File:BSicon utgAKRZu2.svg
 * File:BSicon utgAROADu.svg
 * File:BSicon utgKRZuy.svg
 * on Commons as duplicates. Let the Commons admins sort it out.  Ron h jones (Talk) 18:46, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Ron, Thanks. I have also been talking to Axpde, and he said he had given up bothering about those two tables of icons a long time ago. He was going to delete them from Commons for me, along with File:BSicon utgFEEDERr.svg. Bob1960evens (talk) 18:57, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, well they have all turned red, so job done. We can all forget about those ones.  Ron h jones (Talk) 22:51, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Different topic, same thing: I just renamed I'm not happy with the second move, maybe you have some better idea how to name it ... a x p de  Hello!  10:01, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
 * File:BSicon uAKRZq.svg to File:BSicon MROADq.svg
 * File:BSicon AKRZRu2.svg to File:BSicon MOTORWAY+BRIDGE.svg

Renaming of bridge icons
I am trying to decide what to do with two of the green bridge icons. File:BSicon uxgKRZo.svg and File:BSicon uxgKRZu.svg are inconsistent (Axpde mentioned it above, but the file names have changed since then.) Logically, the second one should be green vertical over light blue horizontal. That leaves me with a dilemma of what to call the displaced light blue vertical under green horizontal. I have the dilemma anyway, because I need a light blue vertical over a green horizontal, and there is nowhere for that to go either.

I have toyed with the idea of using the q suffix, so uxgKRZqo (or uxgKRZoq?) would be similar to uxgKRZo, but rotated through 90 degrees. Any thoughts, anyone? Bob1960evens (talk) 19:06, 29 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, uxgKRZqo doesn't work, as the vertical line then goes under the horizontal, so it should have a 'u' suffix, rather than an 'o'. Bob1960evens (talk) 19:18, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * So it has to go in the group "Aqueduct over other waterway" - the only space is ugKRZo.???  Ron h jones (Talk) 23:01, 29 December 2010 (UTC)


 * ugKRZo should be green vertical over dark blue horizontal. I think I am warming to the uxgKRZqo idea, where the q implies that it is the horizontal line that is in green and that goes over the light blue one. This would also work if we need green horizontal canals crossing railway lines. Bob1960evens (talk) 09:55, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * You'll need a new column... Why no post a message to Axpde (on commons - I think he's there more than here), alternatively just be WP:BOLD and go for it, and let someone complain later. ;-)  Ron h jones (Talk) 18:10, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm trying to avoid an extra column, and make it fit on an extra row. It already seems complicated enought with u, ue, ux, uex, ut, ug, uxg and ugt options, without adding any more. I have already posted Axpde, and his initial suggestion was to add ueg and uexg columns, but I think there would only be the bridge icons that would fit into such columns. Bob1960evens (talk) 10:26, 1 January 2011 (UTC)


 * The trouble is that they are also widely used for railways (maybe more than canals ;-) ), so once you start the ball rolling, someone else will add to them and then they will rename them to fit into "the scheme", without asking (as they usually do)!  Ron h jones (Talk) 02:49, 2 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Many of the other language wikis (French comes to mind) have created their own native-language icon sets – why does English have to stick with the original German? So on that vein, why not just drop the u prefix? (u indicating blue, then modifying with g for green?) There's enough icons in the set that one can make the argument to create its own category: Unwatered canals.
 * (Yeah, I know: who would then go and do all the icon fixes?) Useddenim (talk) 13:03, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * All the waterway icons are located on Commons, where one cannot have two identical images with the same name - to use our "own" icons we have have to either (a) Make a full set of new icons here, OR (b) make a new set on commons, but change the colour enough so that it's not a duplicate - whichever way, it's a lot of work.  Ron h jones (Talk) 20:52, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm still talking to Axpde, as he seems to manage the German set. The problem with a complete green set is we need new row templates for the Waterways Legend, and mods to the existing row templates, and I have recently had to fix Legends on the Welsh, Russian and Japanese wikis, because they also use the same symbols. And the amount of work involved becomes prodigious. Happy new year, everyone. Bob1960evens (talk) 18:40, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Another thought. If we replaced the initial 'u' by a 'g', for a bridge with the vertical colour first, we would have gKRZo (green over blue), gxKRZo (green over light blue), geKRZo (blue over green), and gexKRZo (light blue over green), with room for ggKRZo (green over green). Similarly for gKRZu, where the vertical line goes under the horizontal. For crossing railways, there would be gmKRZo, gemKRZo, gxmKRZo and gexmKRZo, where all blue lines in the previous examples were replaced by red. We would just need a Waterrow template, similar to the Canalrow and Plainrow ones, to display them on the Legend. Bob1960evens (talk) 20:05, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Every character used as prefix should have a unique denotation and a unique position. For historic reasons 'u' and 'e' must come first (original layout of BSe, BSu and BSue templates, which are still in massive use in de-WP), next is 'x', then other characters to determine the usage of the track. Next characters are 'b', 'd' or 'v' if applicable (type of BSicon), last 'h' or 't' (level of track).

Those "other usage characters" are yet 'm' for "mixed railways", usually heavy rail accompanied by light rail (resp. 'um' light rail accompanied by heavy rail). I just did some research and found summa summarum at least five six different colors of green: unwatered canals, footpaths (no earstwhile versions available yet) and three four more different green colors in green colors railway icons:

Footpaths and "normal green" icons use pretty much the same color, on the long run there should be one unique prefix for both. And on the long run there shouldn't be two different dark green colors and two different light green colors which aren't distinguishable!


 * Is anyone willing to consolidate the different shades into light & dark? Useddenim (talk) 15:02, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

How about making one (light) green the "ex-version" of one other (dark) green? See this:

Let's say we come to three colors red, blue and green, both in light and dark shades, then we have a matrix of nine combinations: But we only have four combinations of prefix codes left: 'g', 'ug', 'mg', 'umg' ... argh! Or maybe we might decide to have at max two chars (cancelling 'umg') but have another already used character: 'f' and 'mf' ... #sigh# ... have to think more about it! a x p de Hello!  13:03, 4 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Just to stir things up (more), why not a new descriptor:
 * {| class="wikitable"


 * - align="center"
 * | _ | u | g | f || KRZ || . || | _ | u | g | f || q
 * - align="center"
 * upper line || lines crossing || dot, as in "cross product" || lower line || optional; used if upper line runs crosswise
 * }
 * So now, the example above would be
 * {| class="wikitable"


 * - align="center"
 * KRZ. || uKRZ. || fKRZ.
 * - align="center"
 * KRZ.u || uKRZ.u || gKRZ.ux
 * - align="center"
 * KRZ.f || gKRZ.uxq || fKRZ.f
 * }
 * If a trailing "." causes a problem in a file name, then b could be used for the lower line. (de: bahn; en: below)

Useddenim (talk) 11:41, 6 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I am not convinced that the dot is a good idea, but still like the idea of the 'q' for the case where the upper line is horizontal, rather than vertical. With just this usage of 'q', we can produce all the possible combinations that we need. u|e|x provides four icons using blue and light blue, e|x provides four icons using red and light red, m|e|x provides four icons using red and light red vertical with blue and light blue horizontal, u|x|g provides two icons with green vertical and blue or light blue horizontal, m|x|g provides two icons with green vertical and red or light red horizontal, all of which we already have. u|x|g-q would then specify that the green was horizontal, with blue or light blue vertical, while m|x|g-q would be green horizontal with red or light red vertical. We would have to decide whether the q specified that the over/under also applied to the horizontal, or whether it still applied to the vertical. I think Axpde is not happy with this use of q, but maybe there is another letter we could use for horizontal/rotated/spun. Bob1960evens (talk) 10:57, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

@Useddenim: I already thought about that kind of matrix, as a graduated mathematician this was my first thought. And I already used it to describe the kind of track ('t' or 'h' which are prefix or suffix by now). But other chars already have different meanings (prefex-'e' is "erstwhile", suffix-'e' is "end"). Finally I came to the conclusion, that those icons used most should get the shortest prefix, thus red/red has none, red/blue got 'm', blue/blue got 'u', blue/red got 'um'. That's why I'm thinking about making 'ug' an abbreviation for 'u{e/x}mf' and have a three char prefix for the least used icons: footpaths ... a x p de  Hello!  06:52, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

@Bob: Yep, I think 'q' should only be used when only one track is displayed running across. And I think we really should include the dark green in our calculations, maybe you'll want to use dark green marking an unwatered canal and light green an erstwhile or planned canal ... then we need to start all over again ;-) And even if that's not gonna happen we should really reduce the amount of (partially) green icons by combining them as suggested above! a x p de  Hello!  06:52, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

More on bridge icons - old section too large

 * We have four icons for bridges, , and , which handle blue and light blue crossing blue and light blue. We could use the g to indicate that one of the colours is green, so ugKRZo would be green crossing blue,  would be green crossing light blue, uegKRZo would be blue crossing green and uexgKRZo would be light blue crossing green. I have already resorted to a similar scheme when there were too many combinations for junctions, so we have , ,  and  where the g applies to the main or side branch depending on the other switches. For unwatered canals crossing railways, umgKRZo, uxmgKRZo, uemgKRZo and uexmgKRZo would provide the same combinations as waterway bridges, with green crossing over red or light red and red or light red crossing over green. Bob1960evens (talk) 22:36, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

More incorrect naming,,,
Just noticed that and  have mixed-up prefixes, and should be named utvSTR and utvKMW if they're going to follow the BSicon naming convention. Useddenim (talk) 23:56, 8 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Hmmm, prefixes that describe the level of the track as 'h' & 't' usually come last, so uvtSTR should be ok, but parallel BSicons is the domain of User:Wiebevl who made great effort setting up a consistent naming scheme! a x p de  Hello!  14:45, 9 January 2011 (UTC)


 * The other 18 tunnel icons in [Category:Icons_for_railway_descriptions/parallel_railways/set_blue] are all utv. (But far be it for me to unilaterally change the icon-naming scheme...) Useddenim (talk) 19:28, 9 January 2011 (UTC)


 * There seems to be a problem with uARKZq, which has been re-directed to MROADq. While it shows ok on the template, it does not display properly on the maps (eg River Hull), where it displays as a square box with a red cross in the middle on my machine, and shows the message "unknown route-map component uARKZq" on another machine I have checked. Also, MROADq should be a motorway dual carriageway, like AKRZu2, not a red and yellow major road, like uAKRZu. If we are going to use ROAD as a basis for naming, then MROAD is the blue motorway, AROAD is the red and yellow major road, and BROAD is the yellow minor road. Bob1960evens (talk) 23:51, 15 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Ok, before I continue you have to help me, which road style should get which name? a x p de  Hello!  09:52, 16 January 2011 (UTC)


 * My suggestion is that #1 should be AROAD. #2 and #3 are just different varieties of the same thing I think. They were used for UK A-roads, although I have just changed most of the maps I drew to use style #1, as the red is too similar to the railway red. The wider white band renders better on most monitors. I would call both AROAD-UK, standardise on the wider centre, or carry on converting all of them to style #1. #4 represents a motorway, so I would use MROAD. I have never seen #5 before. Is it a road, or are they dual underground railway tracks or canals? Again, if it is a road, I think the colour is too close to an underground railway / canal, so would suggest using the lighter colour of #4. #6 is a minor road, so I would use BROAD. #7 is used for anything smaller than a B-road, so could be CROAD or TRACK, since UROAD would only lead to confusion. Thanks for all your efforts. Bob1960evens (talk) 14:00, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, if I got it right, the IDs above should become "official sytles". But before changing anything we first have to ask the other projects (railway, road, etc.). Thanks a x p de  Hello!  16:05, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Arghh, just found some more styles :( And now?


 * We still have the issue of what to call icons which are rotated by 90 degrees. So uKRZuy becomes uCROADu, but what does (vertical C-road over horizontal canal) become? It ought to be uCROADqu, but see discussion of 'q' above.


 * As to sorting out greens, I just had a look at usage of BHF_green, and there are at least 1200 pages that use it, on wikis be-x-old, cv, en, fr, pt, ro, ru, sv, uk and zh. I think it might be too late to harmonise those. Bob1960evens (talk) 16:45, 16 January 2011 (UTC)


 * The use of 'q' seems to be quite widespread. Template:Westerleigh Junction has two icons, where horizontal railways cross over vertical B-roads. Bob1960evens (talk) 17:32, 16 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Well all those icons are crossings with roads, no 'KRZ' in the usual sense, just one (rail) track running straight or accross, so no objections against the usage 'q' in this special case. a x p de  Hello!  18:46, 16 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Style 9 does not seem to be used anywhere, styles 10 and 11 are used on wikis cs, es, fr, pt and ro, but not on en (except here). I don't think we need to worry about them yet. Bob1960evens (talk) 17:52, 16 January 2011 (UTC)


 * One other advantage of swapping to the footpath icons for green is they at least have r(ight) and l(eft) the correct way round. Bob1960evens (talk) 18:07, 16 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Here's another "outside the box" suggestion: (I'm sure it's possible to create) a template that takes the two lines as arguments and assembles the desired image. e.g.   which would overlay (from bottom to top): i. the lower BSicon, ii. a white mask, iii. the bridge element, iv. the upper BSicon. So now 1. above would be   , and  could also be represented by   . Useddenim (talk) 18:59, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Addition of CONT icons
I am a bit alarmed by the addition of CONT icons to all of the maps. I have found several now where there is no evidence for the waterway continuing beyond what was shown. The Blyth Navigation map had the harbour branch of the Southwold Railway continuing into the North Sea. It takes quite a while to get all the details right, and now it seems the CONT icons are being added without any checking to see if they are actually correct. Bob1960evens (talk) 23:09, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Rename?

 * to
 * to
 * to
 * to

Seems to fit in better with the rest of the u..KHST icons.  Ron h jones (Talk) 22:02, 1 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree. I do not think uKHSTr was around at the time I created the horizontal basins, and someone later reworked the railway icons, but did not do the green canal ones. Bob1960evens (talk) 15:35, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Yep. Was enough to do adjusting the rail icons in dark red/light red/dark blue/light blue ... :-} a x p de  Hello!  18:53, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
 * As they are all on Comnons, I can only nominate them - done.  Ron h jones (Talk) 00:16, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, they should be adjusted first, just compare the position of the "bubbles"! a x p de  Hello!  08:28, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * ✅ Useddenim (talk) 16:18, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * ? I don't see a problem - I tried flicking back and forth from File:BSicon uLKHSTl.svg and File:BSicon uLSTRq.svg and as far as I can see the half bubble and the first full small one overlap. Anyway the name change has been done, and I've altered the template page.  Ron h jones (Talk) 23:20, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, you should compare File:BSicon uKHSTl.svg with File:BSicon ugKHSTl.svg or File:BSicon uLKHSTl.svg!!! a x p de  Hello!  05:44, 15 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Something seems to have gone wrong, as the Herefordshire and Gloucestershire Canal map showed the missing icon icon in place of a uLBASINr, and I have fixed the Welsh Wicipedia template as well. Because the icon is deleted, I cannot tell how many other instances there might be. Bob1960evens (talk) 22:27, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
 * There was a mistake in the new name ("BSicon" was missing), but I fixed the redirect. a x p de  Hello!  22:29, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Sanitary stations
I see from the discussion above, that editors are encouraged to display their literary and poetic skills on this page-- so deficient in both skills perhaps a piccy will do. I was fascinated to see how one should represent a sanitary station, built on a basin to the left of a canal opposite a pub, and a waterbus stop! (Bridge 98a) The Lancaster one way must be unique in slowing the cars to such an extent that a canal bus, is seen as the fast method to commute. However to narrow boat user knowing the location of these night soil stations is relevant- and relevant to WPs green credentials.--ClemRutter (talk) 09:21, 2 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Several posibilities. shows a feature on the left,  shows a building to the left. If you want the basin on the left as well, using, say, then there is a  or a  which can go in the column to the left. If none of those will do, drop me a note of any ideas and I'll draw something. (Though I'm not sure I would use Wikipedia as a navigation guide, when there are proper guides which do the job better.) Bob1960evens (talk) 13:01, 4 July 2011 (UTC)


 * The interest was theoretical rather than practical. The icon could be a bar- with a chamber pot at 45 degrees ... I needn't say more! Thought the shade of yellow could lead to an interesting discussion. Perhaps we should just think of a unique icon for an administrative building. --ClemRutter (talk) 16:40, 4 July 2011 (UTC)


 * One could also use the overlay icons and . Then it won't matter what other features are there. Could make a useful addition to most maps - useful for me, 2 days and the pot is full...  Love the analogy with Lancaster - that's why I told SWMBO we had to live north of the Lune, because I was not going to cross those bl**dy bridges every day!.  Ron h jones (Talk) 23:05, 6 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Or copy the standard BW "bucket" symbol - http://www.grannybuttons.com/granny_buttons/2011/02/signs-of-the-waterways.html shows it on the first picture at top right.  Ron h jones (Talk) 18:47, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Detached canal reservoir
On Tame Valley Canal map, is there a better symbol for Perry Reservoir? It's detached from the canal, which it feeds with water pumped through pipes. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 13:18, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * How about one of these icons: or ? Useddenim (talk) 14:17, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 17:01, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

(u)g icons
Would anyone who is interested please comment here? Useddenim (talk) 14:06, 10 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I have made some comments. They seem to have decided to drop the -u from green icons, but it causes problems on the Waterways legend page, as icons like ugKRZo and gKRZo end up with the same name. For icons like the bridges, which have two colours, I have suggested that we use -ug for icons where the blue is vertical and the green is horizontal, and -gu for those where green is vertical and blue is horizontal. This same logic could also be applied to the umgABZlf, where umgABZlf would become ugABZlf (ie blue vertical and green branch) and uxmgABZlf would become guABZlf (ie green vertical with blue branch). For the mixed green/blue junctions, I think that would be a lot simpler to understand. Bob1960evens (talk) 22:47, 11 April 2013 (UTC)


 * WP:RDT/C/watercourses, WP:RDT/C/watercourses/infrastructure and WP:RDT/C/watercourses/non-navigable have now been fixed. Useddenim (talk) 03:55, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

A legend is not a library
May I note that a "Legend" (for a user=reader) is not a "Library" (for the editor). This matters for example in Canal du Midi. See Canal du Midi map (this one has no V-T-E btw) -DePiep (talk) 20:31, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Navbar added. What's your point? If you feel so strongly about it, create a legend. Useddenim (talk) 22:04, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
 * My point is: "A legend is not a library". -DePiep (talk) 22:07, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Moved. Happy now? Useddenim (talk) 20:42, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I get the impression you actually did get my point, but had to use cynism for an unclear reason. A legend is an explanation of symbols used. Sometimes it is called a key. It is an aid to the reader. A libray, on the other hand, is an overview of available symbols. It can be called a catalog indeed (an illustration that you got it). It is an aid to the editor/creator. It follows that a legend is presented to the reader (in mainspace, or a link to reader's content space), and a catalog is presented to the editor (say WP, Help or non-content category spaces). -DePiep (talk) 07:04, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I got it the first time. The point I was trying to make was "be bold", which I guess you missed, so I did it myself. Useddenim (talk) 10:51, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Deletion request
for. Please comment at Commons:Commons:Deletion requests/File:BSicon xWASSER.svg. Useddenim (talk) 04:57, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Broken link.-- Clem Rutter (talk) 09:36, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Trivially repaired. YLSS (talk) 09:59, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

New Icons Required...please?
Hi all...I hope someone is watching this page!

Having now started volunteering for the Wey & Arun Canal work parties, I thought it time to revisit their page. Looks like it hasn't been updated in a while!

Anyway, I realised that the route map did not show two of the three main work areas clearly: they were so lacking in detail that anyone reading the text (once it is written) would not have a clue where, on the map, the work was taking place.

I also discovered the 'WASSER' icons (it's a while since I modified a map!) and converted the river sections to use these...but I have found there are some missing!

Looking at Template:Wey and Arun Canal map you will see that we need a 'W' version of 'uAKRZu' ("Major road over canal (international style)"), which is used twice; and either a 'g' version of 'uKRZuy' ("Under minor road"), or a 'W' version of 'uSKRZ-Yu' -- these two sets overlap, but are incomplete, and you will see that the road changes colour as it crosses first river then canal!

Can anyone help with these, please?

Please message me on my talk page, and the resulting email will attract me back here to discuss further!

EdJogg (talk) 02:48, 7 January 2016 (UTC)


 * 'W' version of already exists (albeit under a very non-intuitive name) as  (Motorway Water BRIDGE1 quarter turn);
 * 'g' version of can be constructed (using overlays) by superimposing ; and
 * 'W' version of from . Useddenim (talk) 04:18, 8 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Thank you!
 * I have updated the diagram to use the first icon, although I haven't edited the pictogram template to include it.
 * I was aware of overlays, but did not know how to do them. For the benefit of others, the instructions are here: Wikipedia:Route diagram template#Overlay


 * The example right shows the result.
 * The first row uses the existing and  icons.
 * You can see how the road presentation doesn't match.
 * The second row shows my overlaid 'W' icon, then the green one again, and then the 'matching', which is used elsewhere on the same map! You see again the road inconsistency. Fortunately, there isn't an instance where the last one is used alongside one of the others.
 * EdJogg (talk) 11:54, 8 January 2016 (UTC)