Wikipedia talk:Scottish Wikipedians' notice board/Archive 6

Naming conventions (Kings of Dál Riata)
After the Dál Riata naming farrago, and in view of the problems some people seem to have with Gaelic place names, it seems wisest to mention that I have plans to move all of the kings of Dál Riata articles from e.g. Aedan of Dalriada to Áedán mac Gabráin, Aed of Dalriada to Áed Find, etc. This won't happen overnight, and the exact names are yet to be determined in some cases. Anyway, if you have any opinion on these matters, say so at Talk:List of Kings of Dalriada and/or Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Medieval Gaels) or just shout at me. Please do not leave comments here. Thanks. Angus McLellan (Talk) 16:09, 25 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Why does the old spelling have to be used all the time? It wasn't even standardised at the time of writing in many cases. We use "Malcolm Canmore", for example, which was probably not the contemporary spelling. --MacRusgail 18:19, 25 March 2006 (UTC)


 * What do you mean by "old spelling" ? I don't favour antiquarian affectations (diacritics and ligatures where necessary). I don't see that modern Gaelic usage is relevant, but I'm open to being convinced otherwise. Anyway, Fergananim pointed me in the direction of vol. IX of the "New History of Ireland", which is actually available in the national library (KRB) here, so I can check how the Irish experts handled the names, and Calgacus will be checking Bannerman's book on Dál Riata when he has the time. But, for the moment, the issue is less "what should the titles be changed to ? " than "should they be changed at all ?" Angus McLellan (Talk) 19:41, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I have strong reservations about this. It really must be shown that these names are the most common names in English-language sources, which I suppose must be done on an article-by-article basis. Your statement "... the exact names are yet to be determined in some cases" does concern me: we must only use sourced material, re WP:CITE. Relying heavily on only one or two sources, no matter how authoratitive, does seem problematic. --Mais oui! 20:31, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, it would still be one or two more than were relied on originally. If we begin with the best known figures, and I think I can safely say that Áedán mac Gabráin and Fergus Mór (mac Eirc) are the best known (indeed, the only known), then the rest will fall neatly into place behind them. I'll let you do Fergus Mór yourself, but for Áedán the results are as follows (in collective works, only the editor(s) get the credit) :-


 * Áedán mac Gabhráin: Smyth, Warlords and Holy Men; Williams, Smyth & Kirby, Biographical Dict. of Dark Age Britain;
 * Áedán mac Gabráin: Taylor Kings and Chronicles; Sharpe, Adomnán's Life of St Columba; Broun & Clancy, Spes Scotorum; Byrne, Irish Kings and High-Kings; Thomas, Early Christian Ireland;
 * Aedán mac Gabráin: Foster, Picts, Gaels and Scots; Lynch, Oxford Companion to Scottish History; New Cambridge Medieval History, vol 1;
 * Aedan mac Gabrain: Stenton, Anglo-Saxon England; Cowan & McDonald, Alba;
 * Áedán son of Gabrán : Forsyth in Wormald, Scotland: A History; Cummins, Age of the Picts; Kirby, Earliest English Kings;
 * Aedan mac Gabran : Laing & Laing, The Picts and the Scots; Alcock, Arthur's Britain;
 * Aidan mac Gabran: Cambridge Hist. Enc. of G.B. & Ireland.


 * Allowing for the vagaries of printers, type and the like, the "old spelling" beats the new, and with diacritics beats without. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:01, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * As a datapoint, John Morris's The Age of Arthur - I was reading it on the train today, so it's to hand - uses "Aedan [mac Gabran]" and "Fergus of Dalriada". Interestingly, though, he also uses Aedan for the saint; how far should we take this standardisation?
 * That's a 1973 work with a note that "the most recognisable forms [of names] are usually used. Irish names are normally given in plain English spelling". Shimgray | talk | 23:30, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I hate to say it, but apart from the anglocentricism of many Scottish historians, they aren't exactly noted for their Gaelic grammar. --MacRusgail 02:44, 28 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, perhaps. There are reasonable grounds for omitting diacritics, or using Gabhran in place of Gabran, but few academics perpetrate barbarisms like "mac Gabran" or "Ædan", and those apparently not Scots (or Irish). Angus McLellan (Talk) 11:14, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Oisín and Ossian
Please see this query at the IWNB: --Mais oui! 18:43, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
 * 

Page move attempt: Royal Coat of Arms of the United Kingdom for use in Scotland
User:Astrotrain has unilaterally moved Royal Coat of Arms of the United Kingdom for use in Scotland to Royal Coat of Arms in Scotland. I have just moved it back.

This move is part of an ongoing campaign by this user to try to claim that these are not the Arms of the United Kingdom, but rather that they are the Arms of Scotland. Note the horrendous (and presumably intentional) similarity to the separate Royal Coat of Arms of Scotland article (if you can't see the difference, compare in with of).

I urge other Users to Watch this article like a hawk. I personally have a poor relationship with the User in question and want to get involved as little as possible with their edits. I would appreciate it if calmer heads than mine were to monitor the situation. --Mais oui! 01:21, 8 April 2006 (UTC)


 * He edited the old Talk page so that it cannot be moved back to its original spot, see:
 * Talk:Royal Coat of Arms in Scotland, which was moved a few hours ago from Talk:Royal Coat of Arms in Scotland, and now cannot be moved back. --Mais oui! 02:33, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

User:No More POV Please
We have a "new" user, User:No More POV Please, who is going around POV pushing on Gaelic related articles. The crux of his POV pushing is Gaelic being synonymous with Irish. He is certainly a version of a previous user, as he knows too much about wiki culture to be otherwise. It'll be worthwhile to keep an eye on his Contribution History. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 00:47, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Council Logos
I am working towards uploading a decent .png image for each of the Unitary Authorities. I've done a few and put them in Category:Scottish council logos. I note that some of them are already in the relevant geo-stub templates, so I'll add more in as I do them. BTW if there are any other council logos floating around please put them in this category. Thanks, :Supergolden:: 15:26, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * These logos are fair use, so should not be used on stub templates (or any other templates). They should only be used on the article about the relevant council. I'm sure a better free image can be found that represents each area for the stub templates. --Vclaw 15:36, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * What about coats of arms though? I note that all the England geo stubs use coats of arms on the stub template, not logos? Eg see Orkney-geo-stub, Shetland-geo-stub, Clackmannanshire-geo-stub and Aberdeen-geo-stub. --Mais oui! 15:44, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Content Dispute on Norse-Gaels
A hotheaded and somewhat paranoid user is adding what I regard as nonsense to the article Norse-Gaels (see also Talk:Norse-Gaels). I am on 3RR for now, so can't revert him for now. Can people review and perhaps tell me if I am wrong to think as I do. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 22:30, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * His final, rather lengthy, rant is possibly the best example of a user completely destroying their own credibility ive seen. I still cant get over the fact he defends his POV on a historical article (partly) on the basis he was once a fan of Scandinavian Metal - incredible. An Siarach


 * Yes, it's all my fault that you haven't read the same books as me. I'm sure it's a strange thing indeed. WP:AGF as you suggested, should have been your first act. Instead, you got unilateral on your own anyways. Now, you have your own personal attacks about my purported paranoia. With me, what you see is what you get. So, you admit the desire to have a revert war and are upset that the 3RR would spoil your fun?


 * No, you're not wrong in being ignorant on the topic. It's not a widely promoted thing in the big cities, but when you go as a tourist to the countryside it is all they talk about. It is the story of us "backwards rustics and rednecks", but please, be open to cultural diversity and forestall the prejudice. You hurt my feelings, which is why I got upset. Leave it at that, rather than the dehumanising hothead-nonsense.


 * Now, I see you've got another joker to come ridicule and silence the segment of population you want to claim as your own exclusive historic glory. The keyword is historic and definitely not restricted to the "Celtic Nations" of today.  IP Address 22:58, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Well i was about to post:  " I dont see how anyone could possibly read his comments either on the Norse-Gaels talk page or what hes left on user Talk pages without easily concluding hes pretty far from a balanced, objective individual."

But youd added to the page before i could. So far youve managed to defend your edits on the basis of your former musical tastes, your spouses apparent ancestry, your unease over the situation in Ulster, youre desire to be buried on Iona while making wild attacks on other members while questioning their possible nationality and political leanings as reason behind their opposition to you. I have to say, youre only providing further evidence to support my evaluation.An Siarach

Still, you have contempt for the art of logic. When did you check out the sources I cited, per Wikipedia policy? "Duh, I dunno what sources are..." You really want this fight? I don't. IP Address 23:24, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

It appears to me that you are still seeing the Norse-Gaels' history as inextricably intertwined with modern Celtic nations--which is why you have declared a "state of emergency" here on the Scottish Wikipedians' notice board. You do not accept the part of the Norse-Gaels history which is part of England and prefer to dodge the use of sources cited, but this is trolling and you are enemies of NPOV at the Wikipedia because of that. Don't say I didn't recognise your attempts to wreck me with a smear campaign of sockpuppets' whose IP ranges aren't even mine! IP Address 18:38, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Joie de vivre
Thank goodness: a little light relief! Someone bunged this on the Kilt article. I vote for it to stay! --Mais oui! 11:01, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
 * It's a good photo but I think the problem is that it's copyright and the copyright owner has not given us permission to use it on Wikipedia nor to release it under the GFDL. -- Derek Ross | Talk 16:37, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

An excellent historic resource
The good folks at British History Online have just put A Topographical Dictionary of Scotland (Samuel Lewis, 1846) online here. Some villages are just a couple of lines of bare factual information, but some (especially parishes near large cities, such as Gilmerton or Newhaven) get decent articles. The level of coverage for large towns seems good, and the cities go into great detail.

It's a hundred and sixty years old, of course, so not something to base an article on - but it looks excellent for fleshing out "history of..." sections in articles on towns and villages. Shimgray | talk | 01:36, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Ta for that. Looks very good. --Mais oui! 01:45, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Another resource would be the Old (1791–1799) and New (1834–1845) Statistical Accounts here. For example, the Old Statistical Account report for Kilchoman on Islay includes such interesting trivia as this: "The Highland dress has not made such rapid progress among us, as with our neighbours to the N. We are more clad in the long coat, hat, and breeches, than the inhabitants of any other of the Hebrides." It also tells us that sheep were as yet uncommon, and that raising black cattle still took second place to horse breeding for the Irish markets. The minister of Kilchoman doesn't mention the water of life, but his neighbour in Kildalton is indignant over the great amount of whisky distilled. Apparently there wasn't a single excise man on Islay in the 1790s.  Lucky for some. Angus McLellan  (Talk) 15:41, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Confirmed Sockpuppetry on Scotland-related articles
It has been discovered on WP:RFCU that, , , ,  , , and  are all socks. has been engaging in sockpuppetry to further the wikipedian strength of his POV on Scottish and Irish related articles. All except Bluegold have been permanently blocked, and Bluegold himself has been blocked for 24 hours. Moreover, is a suspected sock, but may be just, if Bluegold was telling the truth on the investigation page, Bluegold's work colleague trying to help him out. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 20:03, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Scottish mountains: Gaelic pronounciation?
Just found this page: User:Blisco/Gaelic. --Mais oui!
 * Thanks for posting this, Mais oui!. Anyone with a knowledge of Gaelic and IPA are invited to contribute. A good guide to Gaelic phonology would be handy too - the chart at Scottish Gaelic language only gives the consonants, and I'm finding the vowels quite tricky. Blisco 18:15, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * How many people actually know IPA well? People all over the world, but they could fit in a phonebox, with room to spare! --MacRusgail 21:26, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * p.s.

Which image: Flag of Scotland or Royal Arms of the United Kingdom?
Please see discussion at Template talk:PoliticsScotland. --Mais oui! 10:49, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Highland and Highlands
Is the use of the council area name really useful, or merely misleading? As if it isn't bad enough seeing a sign on Drummochter saying "Welcome to the Highlands", the Highlands are a) far larger than Highland region (Highland Perthshire/Aberdeenshire/Banffshire, Argyll etc), and b) actually do not include certain areas within Highland (Caithness) - or the Hebrides, which are sometimes included... For this reason, "natives of Highland" is bound to be confused with "Highlander" which is a completely different concept. Why must we always follow the penpushers? (Putting Banff in Aberdeenshire is another of their abominations) --MacRusgail 21:24, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

p.s. for a perfect example of this see Kenmore, Scotland


 * Indeed. Couldn't have put it more eloquently. I just can't see what other way there is to do it. It's a tough one. However, it's not like "Highlander" is a very meaningful concept in the 21st century. I suppose the current system is just the best of a bad world. How about, natives by Mormaerdom? ;) - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 21:37, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Erm, I know some Highlanders who would think it was very much so. The traditional counties are still in widespread colloquial use, with the exception of those with big cities in the middle. The changes are often made by officials with little understanding of regional identities, and/or geopolitics. And probably to keep the Labour party in or out, in some cases! --MacRusgail 22:02, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Indeed, I as well know some Highlanders who take great pride in their heritage, and keep it alive to this day in the form of a small grouping of Frasers, who actually act as a Clan. Just another bit of non-useful information, without any actual input on the tehcnical discussion from me. Canæn  08:25, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I actually am a Highlander who thinks it is very much so. In this I am far from unique. Most Highlanders I know, if not actually all of them, share this view. Lianachan 13:42, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Common phrases based on stereotypes
Any well-sourced Scottish-related phrases suitable for this article? --Mais oui! 13:47, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Common phrases based on stereotypes

Primary schools?
I have been expecting this for a while now, but my first reaction is: "Oh my god... do we really have to?"

Aird Primary School should probably be sent to AFD for their consideration. Personally I do not know what to think. As an inclusionist, I am tempted to just ignore it, but I thought I had better seek the wise counsel of my fellow Scottish Wikipedians. --Mais oui! 05:57, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * ISTR that school articles hardly ever get voted down on AFD. Consider WP:SCH. --Craig Stuntz 12:41, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

CommonsTicker
While the SCOWNB isn't neccessarily a "wikiproject" per say, I encourage you all to tak a look at this: CommonsTicker. It seems to be like a stock ticker, with information pertinent to individual wikiprojects, regarding related images. Further than that, I've no idea what the bluidy hell the man's talking about. Canæn 08:18, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Template:Clan stub
I've created the following stub for use with Scottish clans and related articles. You can use it by putting   at the bottom of an article. Hopefully this will help facilitate not only the organizing of Scottish clans, but also the construction, as we'll be able to see which ones desire more attention than others. Granted, right now it seems more will be on the stub list than not. Canæn 19:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

''This Scottish clan-related article is a stub. You can help Wikipedia by [ expanding it]''.

Clickable map(s)
Not that I'm in any way unhappy with our existing doton maps, but (inspired by the neato map at 2006 FIFA World Cup) I've come up with the following:

Is this something we should be doing, either on Scotland or other places? -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:47, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Impressive! That's definitely worth having. -- Derek Ross | Talk 22:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Wow! I had no idea that was possible in wikipedia. Great work Finlay - I can see how this might be used on the Unitary Authority areas and county maps? :Supergolden:: 10:13, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Excellent: we definitely need new local government maps: the current county ones are awful, and often totally inaccurate. --Mais oui! 20:21, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * That's a cool piece of code. It could be used to create location maps for the infoboxes and save the bother of having to create and upload separate ones for each place.  SFC9394 11:00, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Siol nan Gaidheal NPOV problems
I believe members of this political group are using its wikipedia page for propaganda and I'd be very grateful to anyone who knows about the history of Scottish "ultra-nationalism" and is willing to do a decent NPOV rewrite that cites sources. Thanks.

IslaySolomon 04:02, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

MSPs
Hi all.

I just got a nice letter from a chap at Holyrood, pointing out that our articles on various areas of Scotland have a little box for MSPs, but usually only list the directly-elected ones, not the list members. eg/ North Ayrshire, which is in two constituencies and two regions - so we list two of the sixteen MSPs.

It would be silly to list them all, IMO - it'd unbalance the infobox and make it look like each MSP represents about twelve people and a dog - but would it be worth having something like, say...

MPs    Katy Clark Brian Donohoe MSPs   Irene Oldfather Allan Wilson South of Scotland list MSPs West of Scotland list MSPs

Thoughts appreciated. Shimgray | talk | 22:09, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Your solution to the problem makes sense – about the only suggestion I could add would be to have "(directly elected)" on the end of the two named MSP's, but I don't know if that is just adding extra info we don't really need. I thought there were plans floating about to scrap the whole list system anyway?  The thoughts being that it leaves a load of MSP's with no direct constituents, and is partially undemocratic (unsuccessful direct election party candidates are always at the top of their parties list, so almost always get in anyway). SFC9394 23:50, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Haven't heard anything about that... Furthermore, there are lots of functional democracies which work without constituencies. The Scottish/New Zealandish/German system of having constituencies *and* lists gives you the best of both worlds, as there are directly elected MSPs from constituencies as well as a proportional representation through the additiona list seats; only having constituencies makes the system extremely undemocratic, as can be seen in the United Kingdom's general election, where parties with barely a third of the electoral votes get more than half of the mandates... &mdash; Nightst a  llion  (?) 11:21, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Looks like it will happen after the 2007 elections - with an STV being the only change this time around, but it sounds like there are folks who want it to go. SFC9394 11:43, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, I'll add these in the next couple of days if there are no objections. Shimgray | talk | 00:34, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, please do make this change. An MSP is and MSP regardless of how they are elected. I have found that people are pretty savvy about this. The system means that you have a choice of who can represent you, so if someone has a case they want to take up with an MSP they will quite often go to one of the Regional List MSPs rather than their constituency MSP. When the Scottish Parliament started, some of the consituency MSPs got a bit miffed about this, but after all the Regional MSP is also representing you, albeit representing your region rather than your area than the constituency. So they ought to be listed somehow in these articles. --Slackbuie 09:47, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Citation needed
Please see Talk:Acts of Union 1707. Could the historians amongst us please provide the relevant information. In fact, that whole article is extremely thin and ropey and could do with the input of some experts. --Mais oui! 01:45, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I've chopped parts of the "violations" section up, and will attack the last one when I feel up to it. It does seem a bit stringy, on the whole... Shimgray | talk | 23:37, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Ta. With the three hundred year anniversary co-inciding with the Scottish Parliament general election next year, this is going to be a big area of interest soon. It would be nice if Wikipedia had a half-decent series of articles for the general public to refer to. --Mais oui! 08:47, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Right of public access to the wilderness
The Right of public access to the wilderness needs some input from informed Scottish Wikipedians. At the moment the traditional Scottish rights are just briefly mentioned as an afterthought, and the article would certainly benefit from some references or citations. --Mais oui! 04:10, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Exchequer
The Exchequer article has barely a peep about the Scottish Exchequer: can anyone take a look at it? --Mais oui! 15:05, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Some useful stuff at the National Archives of Scotland Guide to Exchequer Records maybe. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:52, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Jim Clark
There has been a bit of a low level edit war going on at Jim Clark. If this is within your field of expertise, or if you can contribute some good references, please contribute at Talk:Jim Clark. --Mais oui! 05:51, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Where to find 1696 legislation?
I'm working on the Education Act 1696 article at the moment, but I don't wanna put it on the main namespace until it's a decent article. I feel it's a topic important enough to merit something beyond a stub. I've only managed to piece together a tiny amount from Google and need either to work offine or find somewhere online with enough contemporary data to be worth it.

Are old Parliament of Scotland laws kept online anywhere? If not... is there anywhere in the Glasgow area that would have decent resources of this nature? Cheers. 20:19, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The Mitchell Library on North Street seems to be the main central library, and poking their catalogue they seem to have a decent reference section. I'd advise going there and asking as your first port of call. Shimgray | talk | 20:57, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Standard naming scheme
Please see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Regional notice boards. Zocky | picture popups 00:52, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Orcadian Wikipedians - Scandinavian too?
Please see the discussion at Category talk:Orcadian Wikipedians. Thanks/wangi 13:15, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Map request

 * Can someone make a better version of this . Wiki needs it, and I don't have good programs. However, if no-one does do, I will do and wiki will get a crap map :). Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 15:50, 24 July 2006 (UTC)


 * That link is dead; if you can fix it, I'll have a go. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 15:27, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey, that's be great. The old map got deleted. Here it is on Edinburgh uni website: MAP. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 18:36, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Direct descent from Fergus Mór to Elizabeth II
Please see the discussion here: --Mais oui! 10:28, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Talk:List_of_monarchs_of_Scotland

Help with translations
I'm currently working on a script intended to create short articles on political parties on a variety of wikipedias simultaneously. However, in order for the technique to work I need help with translations to various languages. If you know any of the languages listed at User:Soman/Lang-Help, then please help by filling in the blanks. For example I need help with Scottish Gaelic. Thanks, --Soman 12:14, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Scotland
I am beginning to think that the Scottish Wikipedians' notice board is not the best vehicle for pushing up the quality of the Scotland article (we ought to try to get it to WP:FA, in order to get into Version 0.5, or, failing that, Version 1.0), and the other key Scottish articles. It is becoming increasingly obvious to me that we really ought to start up the long-mooted WikiProject Scotland.

Most of the stuff at the notice board (at least on the bottom half) is actually WikiProject material anyway, and the Talk page is really being used as a WikiProject talk already! The notice board should be just that: for bunging up brief notices and signposts. I am thinking of launching a Wikiproject and correspondingly radically clearing out, and chopping down, the noticeboard (a re-launch if you like). The Scotland Portal concept is fine (but currently mediocre/undynamic content), but in stasis: it needs a good kick up the jacksie.

For comparison, have a look at:
 * WikiProject Norway
 * WikiProject Australia
 * WikiProject New Zealand
 * WikiProject Peru
 * WikiProject Hong Kong
 * etc.

And, if you are at a loose end, have a look at: Thoughts? Please express them here. --Mais oui! 08:59, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Version 0.5 Nominations
 * Version 1.0 Nominations
 * Version 1.0 Editorial Team/WPPlaces
 * Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Medieval Scotland articles by quality
 * WikiProject
 * WikiProject/Best practices

Sudden and radical change to "Aberdeen City" / "City of Aberdeen"
Hi folks, I've just been rather surprised to see that the Aberdeen local authority page (formerly Aberdeen City, although perhaps overdue for renaming to City of Aberdeen) has been "merged" with the article on Aberdeen itself. This is contrary to the style of the Edinburgh / City of Edinburgh, Glasgow / City of Glasgow and Dundee / City of Dundee articles, plus it leaves Aberdeenshire without its natural partner. There is also no article with the appropriate map showing the local authority area (the blue one) and we've lost the list of names of MSPs.

I'm not suggesting any vandalism has taken place, because all the work seems entirely sincere. However, the user who proposed this seems (from my reading of history and diff pages) to have just started a vote (in the Talk:Aberdeen City page) a week ago, without adding "merge" tags anywhere, and now gone ahead and made the changes without any votes being cast either way.

I feel a bit of input from regular editors might be helpful before I lumber in with size 12 boots and revert anything. – Kieran T  ( talk  19:51, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Makes sense to keep the discussion at Talk:Aberdeen. Thanks/wangi 20:38, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Absolutely. Just drawing your attention to it. :) – Kieran T  ( talk  23:48, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Gododdin/Votadini and neighbouring kingdoms
I'm doing some work on the Y Gododdin article, and need a good map showing the locations of the various kingdoms in southern Scotland in the 6th-7th centuries. At the moment I'm using the map copied from Skene, which is not easy to read even when enlarged. I *think* I have seen a better map somewhere on Wikipedia, but I've checked various related topics and can't find it. Can anybody help? Rhion 09:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * A Google Images search brings up, not too detailed, but easy to read and attractive-looking. Lurker  oi!  14:36, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Not the one I saw, but this one will do nicely. Thanks.Rhion 16:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)