Wikipedia talk:Short description/Archive 11

Pages without a short description
Random article is no longer as effective as it used to be for finding pages lacking a short description. While this is highly gratifying as an indicator that we are getting the job done, it means that we could use a better way of browsing to find random articles lacking a short description. Does anyone have suggestions? Cheers, &middot; &middot; &middot; Peter Southwood (talk): 07:45, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * @Peter Southwood This search will work, but it is probably impossible to get a random article without using a script. &#8213; Qwerfjkl  talk  08:15, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * User:Qwerfjkl, Close enough to random for me. I will gire it a run. Thanks, &middot; &middot; &middot; Peter Southwood (talk): 09:21, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Definitely useful. &middot; &middot; &middot; Peter Southwood (talk): 14:09, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Template incorrectly categorizing when transcluded
The template appears to be incorrectly adding articles to Category:Articles with long short description when that article's Infobox transcludes the short description template and has a stand-alone short sescription template overriding it. e.g. 3M-51 Alfa has a stand-alone template with the short description "Russian anti-ship missile", which is perfectly OK. The transcluded version of the template is generating the (not very) short description of "Cruise missileAir-launched cruise missileAnti-ship missileSubmarine-launched cruise missile Land-attack missileSurface-to-surface missile", the short description template is using this long description to place the article in the long short description category, when it shouldn't. The template code needs adjusting to check for stand-alone short description templates. - X201 (talk) 07:46, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * See the thread immediately above for an explanation. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:08, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I have adjusted the short description template in Infobox weapon to pick out the first part of type, before the first "&lt;" character. It's a bit of a hack, and it probably won't work if there is something wild in type, but I think that was also the case with the previous code. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:24, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I have a strange feeling that there are many more of them out there. - X201 (talk) 07:36, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
 * There will be. We could always add a category to the SD template for SD length under 100 to act as a filter — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 13:26, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
 * The Short description template is behaving correctly as far as it goes. The problem is in the infobox template instead, hence the "hack" by Jonesey95. There has been some other work to address issues of this sort: Infobox film was modified to completely omit any second SD if one is already locally defined in the article – Infobox film/short description uses Has short description to check. Infobox award uses and only outputs the SD if the infobox is being used in the lead of the article. Infobox school does both checks ... There was also some initial work on a new template which would check the SD being "proposed" by an Infobox template and omit any SD that was too long. We probably need to have a "deep think" about what we want in an new Infobox short description template — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 17:28, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * What would be wrong with having a  field in the infoboxes, to serve as a manual override on the occasions that the infobox automatically creates a long or wrong short description? - X201 (talk) 13:18, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
 * You mean, a manual infobox override of the automatic infobox override of the manual en-WP override of the automatic Wikidata short description? &mdash; JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 14:29, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
 * We already have a standard way of overriding the infobox short description: add the SD template to the top of the article. Easy and standardized. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:30, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

I've started the task of cleaning out Category:Articles with long short description and I've found a couple of templates that are generating long short descriptions. I'm dropping them here for info purposes: The problem is the same as before, fields that were expected to be short or only have a single entry aren't/don't and that field is being used to make the short description, which is being overridden with a stand-alone template for presentation puposes, but the article is still in the 'Long' category due to the Infobox code. - X201 (talk) 13:48, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Infobox song - 56 articles
 * Infobox dam - 36 articles
 * Infobox museum - 29 articles
 * And Infobox album - 99 articles - X201 (talk) 14:04, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * If you can provide a list of links to affected articles, I will take a look at the infobox SD code to see if adjustments can or should be made. That said, 56 problem articles out of 71,000 articles using Infobox song is a vanishingly small percentage of problem articles. Any change made to the infobox would need to fix most or all of those 56 while causing problems in fewer than 56 of the other 71,000. It's probably better to just override those 56 articles with shorter local descriptions, or to fix the overly long infobox content that is causing the long SDs in those articles. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:16, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Matches Wikidata and also different
I spotted today that the article Sameliya (permalink) is in both Category:Short description is different from Wikidata and Category:Short description matches Wikidata.

I wondered if that paradox was a one-off glitch, but https://petscan.wmflabs.org/?psid=20319442 finds 75,463 pages in both categories.

What's going on? -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 12:09, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
 * See the end of this thread. Basically, the code that does the categorization can't see the actual page properties, which is where the One True Short Description is stored. It can only look at short descriptions rendered in the article, so if one description is provided by an SD template and another, different, SD is provided by an infobox template, the code sees both and applies both categories. Maybe there is a way for the code to look through the wikitext and respect the "noreplace" option if the SD template is present, as the actual page renderer does. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:20, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I came here to say the same thing about Hiveswap. There's gotta be a way to code something in Lua for SDcat to see the end result. If there is, maybe will know how to do it? &#8211; MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 19:18, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
 * How it happens for Hiveswap is that the WD short description says: 2017 video game. Infobox video game gives that same result, but the manual short description on the page says 2017 video game spinoff of Homestuck. That is what lead to the two different outputs. &#8211; MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 19:20, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
 * What invokes SDcat other than Short description, and does a short description provided by the template override those given by an infobox? Elli (talk &#124; contribs) 19:21, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
 * SDcat is called every time Short description is transcluded. A dumb way to work around this problem would be to not assign the category when noreplace is present, but that would allow many articles to fall through the cracks. There may be a more elegant way. – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:34, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I suggest an  parameter in Short description to add a new subcategory like Category:Short description added by infobox is different from Wikidata. Then the category page could explain more. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:20, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Should invalid values of pagetype be trapped?
, by adding Content, has changed the valid categories  into the redlinked categories. Is this by design? -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 11:03, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The category should be derived by magic from the namespace (plus special check for dab pages) - there should be no need to override it. It is unclear what the user was trying to "test", so I have fixed it. The pagetype parameter should probably be removed from the SD template. As far as I can tell, there are now no articles setting the parameter — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 20:03, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 20:57, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Automatic short descriptions for infobox redirects
Some infoboxes use Module:Is infobox in lead to determine whether to add an automatic short description. After noticing that use of the redirect Infobox single does not currently add a short description, I have added to the documentation that redirects can be handled with extra invocations. I suggest we do this, at least for common redirects like Infobox single. Some infoboxes already do it, e.g. Infobox musical artist. The module could also be used to make different short descriptions or no description for different redirects, but template redirects are expected to behave like the target. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:21, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Auto-generated short description
Auto-generated short description for Infobox musical artist template, doesn't work in some articles. Are there any issues?—It'sCtrlwiki • talk • 00:49, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Please link to an example article. We can't read your mind. – Jonesey95 (talk) 06:11, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, sure, Special:Diff/1055121550 and Special:Diff/1055120703, I tried to remove the short description template on those articles, because this page says that the template "musical artist" provides an automatic short description, but it doesn't work. When I search the article in the Wikipedia's search box, still no description provided. So I reverted it back. I tried it in other musical artist Special:History/Teddy_Corpuz, and it works.—It'sCtrlwiki • talk • 06:57, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Please do not remove accurate local short descriptions, which have been added by editors to improve upon the automated description provided by the infobox. Is there an article that is currently having this problem? – Jonesey95 (talk) 07:05, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes One Direction also having this problem, and maybe other korean musical artists. —It'sCtrlwiki • talk • 07:10, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * When I load One Direction, I see the short description "English-Irish boy band". When I go to the mobile interface and type "One Direction" in the search box, the band is the first suggested result, and "English-Irish boy band" appears below the article name in the search results. That looks like everything is working fine. The short description provided by the infobox is intended as a stopgap until someone comes along and provides a better local description within the article itself. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:24, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * You can really read the description obviously, because I reverted it back. But if I remove again the description template, you cannot read the description.—It'sCtrlwiki • talk • 02:14, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Post here when you find another article that is not working as expected. Link to the article without modifying it, and we can try to help you. – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:22, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * If One Direction is previewed without  then the hidden Category:Articles with short description disappears. Infobox musical artist is only coded to add the short description "Musical artist" but omits it if   or   is set. Maybe there are too many possible terms for groups of musicians. PrimeHunter (talk) 10:34, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for digging in and finding that; it even looks like I implemented the code a few months ago (I edit too many templates to remember where I've been!). I have added a bit of documentation that explains how this works. – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:42, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

, a reason why local short descriptions are preferred here (whether they be defined in the article or be auto-generated), even if they are identical to one on Wikidata, is that vandalism of the description is much likely to be fixed more quickly here. It doesn't matter that it "increase the bytes of the article". Again, do not remove them. MB 22:06, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Can someone please tell this editor to stop senselessly removing all manually added short descriptions from dozens of articles? – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 06:56, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * That has been done multiple times, including by me, in this discussion thread, and at AN, and at the editor's talk page. – Jonesey95 (talk) 07:33, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

User pages
Would it be possible to add the short description "Wikipedia editor" as the automatic default short description for non-subpage user pages? &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 20:05, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
 * How many users want this? &middot; &middot; &middot; Peter Southwood (talk): 07:52, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Maybe a better question is how many would object? &middot; &middot; &middot; Peter Southwood (talk): 07:57, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * If this is done by default (rather than through a bot), I doubt many people would notice. If it can be overridden if you define a short description on the page, I suspect even fewer would. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 15:22, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * You may be right, and I would have no objection myself, but I have seen a few unexpected reactions to changes. I have no idea if a default short description is possible without a change to the software. Cheers, &middot; &middot; &middot; Peter Southwood (talk): 17:50, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * As an interim, we could add it to User page. I'll take up the discussion there. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 18:12, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * @Sdkb A more effective target would be the userbox metatemplate (though I'm not sure if we really need shortdescs for user pages). – SD0001  (talk) 08:24, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

40-char limit in the doc page?
If the 40-character limit is a strong guideline (or rule), is there a reason it is not mentioned in the documentation page? Thanks. jhawkinson (talk) 14:59, 18 November 2021 (UTC)


 * The snarky answer is, "because you never added it". The possibly friendlier answer is, "good point; I have added an explicit mention there", although the section did already point to WP:HOWTOSD. &mdash; JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 02:03, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Two SDs displayed
Scaptopara has two, neither local. One is from WD and the other from a template. MB 17:43, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, a page itself can't "display" two short descriptions. A page can have a local description (from Wikipedia; see Page information for the page) and a central description (from Wikidata; also see Page information). The local description is preferred. Scaptopara (a redirect page) has only a central description. If you are seeing two descriptions, you may have one or more gadgets or .js scripts loaded that show you both descriptions. That could be useful as a tool, but it should not be something to be concerned about, since regular readers will see only one short description. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:11, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not aware of anything special. On Scaptopara, I see:
 * A redirect page from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 * Redirect page
 * Wikimedia disambiguation page (Wikidata Import Edit and import)
 * Is the second "Redirect page" a SD or something else?
 * On Babs Woods, (which is also connected to WD), I see:
 * A redirect page from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 * Redirect page
 * The first one was a DAB page until I reverted it back to a plain redirect, so I can understand why is has a DAB SD in WD. MB 18:45, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, the "Redirect page" text is not a short description. It appears to be some sort of subheader added by MediaWiki:Redirectpagesub and looks like  in the rendered HTML source. Actual short descriptions look like this in the rendered HTML source:   – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:42, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
 * OK, I went to the WD entry for Scaptopara and removed the label "disambiguation page". Now it looks like any other redirect to me and SD helper is not suggesting anything. MB 21:24, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Perfect. – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:09, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Use of "Former" in short description
Sometimes I see the word former in the short description, like "Former professional football player". It is my understanding that the word "former" should not be there and the description should be "Professional football player". Is that right? Does anything need to be added to the main short description page about this? Kaltenmeyer (talk) 12:34, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I see for Caitlyn Jenner we have "American media personality and retired decathlete" which seems OK to me. Maybe you are asking specifically about the word "former"? Would the description be better without "retired"? Thincat (talk) 14:08, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I would use former sparingly, only if the person is better known today for some other role and the lack of former would make the description ambiguous, like "US Senator and former professional football player". We don't want to imply that the person is currently both a senator and a football player. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:40, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree that "former" generally isn't useful, but I'd be reluctant to start specifying in too much detail the way in which a person should be described, as we don't want the page to become a long list of rules covering special cases. WP:SDCONTENT already says that "The short description is part of the article content, and is subject to the normal rules on content", and I'd say that's enough. MichaelMaggs (talk) 15:24, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Why is former incorrect? A lot of people have a different role now so e.g. coach and former footballer is sensible. Joseph2302 (talk) 17:00, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, what do we do about Dwight D. Eisenhower? He's not the president, but he ; he's not a general, but he, he's not alive, but he ; etc. Likewise Bert Lance, Ruth Metzler, Benito Mussolini, Carol Channing, and others. &mdash; JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 17:27, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Always good to see Mussolini and Carol Channing together again....
 * The main reason not to use "former" is that it isn't really necessary to fulfill the mission of the short description (oh, Eisenhower the former president!), and it does make the description less... you know: short.
 * In the case of people whose status-for-everything is "former", it's then not necessary to distinguish in any way which roles may or may not be current.--NapoliRoma (talk) 19:40, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Re Ike and Il Duce: the word "former" is needed only if the SD will be ambiguous or confusing. Remember the key guidance on this page. The SD ideally can finish this sentence: "[Article subject] is/was a/an/the ... ", so the late Dwight Eisenhower would have the word "was" and would not need "former", as it is redundant. – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:25, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Sure, and in fact, we say (already) "34th president" (not that everybody knows we're up to 46 now), which is useful for disambiguating from the Dwight Eisenhowers who were president. The "former" usually falls away as unnecessary and length-increasing. I think it's a rare case when somebody (or thing) is equally notable for two things that readers will wonder how they did both at once, sort of like maybe Pius Schwert, although not quite. &mdash; JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 21:33, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Bot short descriptions
Hi, I made a list of articles (here) that look like their short description should be set to none. I'm happy to file a BRFA and do this, but I'd like to hear what you think first. &#8213; Qwerfjkl  talk  08:08, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * None could be acceptable, but also consider "International sporting event" or competition. &middot; &middot; &middot; Peter Southwood (talk): 09:16, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, international sporting event would work, given that I got the articles from Category:Events at the Pan American Games (after some filtering). &#8213; Qwerfjkl  talk  10:20, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I have added that short description to Infobox Pan American Games event, which is transcluded in 1,847 articles. That should take care of most of the proposed list. If you redo the list to exclude articles that already have an appropriate short description, what does the list look like? We may be able to resolve this by tweaking a few templates instead of editing hundreds of articles. – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:09, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

"Category:Articles with long short description" isn't working
Noticed that Category:Articles with long short description doesn't seem to be working; there are a number of articles there, such as Abhai Singh of Marwar, which have less than 100 characters in the short description. Would someone with appropriate experience be able to fix that? Thanks, Yitz (talk) 21:17, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
 * @Yitzilitt: Could this be related to &#8213;  Qwerfjkl  talk  21:24, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is. I'm currently clearing out the long short descriptions cat. The remaining items that start with the letter A are being generated by templates despite the article having a valid additional short description. - X201 (talk) 14:34, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Possibly—I'm no expert on category pages, so I don't really feel qualified to speak here outside of simply pointing out the bug. Yitz (talk) 21:25, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I have been working through the Short descriptions that include wikitext. Must have missed the one above - my Regex searches keep timing out — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 23:08, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not template savvy, but similar to the mention of Infobox film in the above discussion, would this be aided by adding Has short description to the logic that populates the above category or to the rest of the infoboxes in Category:Templates that generate short descriptions? I can't even tell how the long shortdesc category is populated in the first place. -2pou (talk) 23:18, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
 * The Short description template tests the length of the description. Any with a description over 100 characters causes the article to be added to one of the something with long short description categories — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 00:44, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Here's a weird case: The pages in Category:Honduras national football team results use transcluded short descriptions, and they are only 32 characters, but they get flagged for being long. -2pou (talk) 21:44, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Very odd. "THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER." — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 22:49, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
 * with this edit. There were span tags being carried into the short description. – Jonesey95 (talk) 00:08, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
 * It's hardly The Last Question. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 16:54, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
 * True. Where templates are concerned there will always be more questions — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 21:23, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't the solution to this be adding something like:Is short description is being transcluded through another template (check from ?) Then check the wikitext of the page, to see if the wikitext (non-transcluded) short description has >100 characters (something like  ) And if there's no match, don't populate the category. &#8213;  Qwerfjkl  talk  22:08, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Synonyms in short description
Can a short description include synonyms, or should they be avoided?

The above question has arisen from a brief discussion over at Talk:Prosopagnosia. The article is the target for the face blindness redirect, and another editor wants to include the term in the short description. I'm resistant to include it, for the risk of redirects creeping into article's short description; but not fully opposed. As I'm not familiar enough with short descriptions, I'm here to request if an expert could drop by that discussion. Little pob (talk) 13:41, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Birth/death dates in bio SDs
I thought this issue was settled after the discussion that led to WP:SDDATES which says that dates are encouraged even if NOT necessary for disambiguation. I have been reverted on Ian Munro (computer scientist). More opinions requested on the TP of that article. MB 03:33, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The first paragraph of WP:SDDATES has too much waffle language in it. Are dates encouraged or not? That said, I nearly always move on to other editing when I am reverted like this. If it's the right thing to do, someone else will probably come along and take care of it. And if it doesn't get done, I'll improve a thousand other articles with a minimum of drama. – Jonesey95 (talk) 04:51, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * This has been brought up again at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography. <b style="color:#034503">MB</b> 00:38, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Century
The century is often enough to give useful context for a person compactly. For Archimedes, do we really need "Greek scientist (287-212 BC)"? I would claim that "Greek scientist 3c BC" is sufficient, and leaves room for additional characteristics, e.g., "Greek scientist from Sicily 3c BC".

Note that I write centuries as 3c. Unlike c3, there is no ambiguity with "circa". I wish we could write -3c for 3c BC, but that is probably too non-standard and obscure. --Macrakis (talk) 19:46, 19 January 2022 (UTC)


 * I get 3c BC, I'm not sure if the bulk of our readers would, but I'm all for shorter short descriptions whenever there is need to fit more info in. ASUKITE  19:53, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * There is a lot wrong with this idea. First, the proposed syntax does not properly finish the sentence "Archimedes was a ...." Second, please do not write "3c" for "Third century" or "3rd century". It is incomprehensible; we have MOS:CENTURY for a reason. In any event, "(287–212 BC)" (note dash per MOS) is shorter than either of those century designations, so the year range is probably ideal. And third, we have guidance for inclusion of dates. – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:23, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, the reason I was proposing 3c or 3C was precisely because they're short and, to my eyes at least, clear. Apparently not to yours. Fair enough. Anyway, MOS clearly applies to articles; I wasn't aware it applied to SDs. In particular, I'd think that SDs should be written in more telegraphic style than articles.
 * Re "–" for number ranges, yes, I certainly appreciate that typographic refinement. Which is why I'm mystified that in 2022, WP still insists on using straight ASCII "'" instead of proper apostrophes and quotation marks. But hey, that's a different issue. --Macrakis (talk) 21:05, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * WP still insists on using straight ASCII "'" instead of proper apostrophes and quotation marks. I believe I read somewhere that Internet Explorer can't search for them interchangeably. &#8213; Qwerfjkl  talk  21:14, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * That's why I mentioned the year. Backwards compatibility with old software like IE is nice up to a point, but....
 * Anyway, I suspect that it also doesn't search for "-" and "–" interchangeably either. --Macrakis (talk) 21:49, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

SD for states of the U.S.
I've got several states on my watchlist and have noticed the SD tend to change a lot. They have recently been "standardized" to "U.S. State". Some used to be "State in the United States", which I prefer - it is well within 40 characters and is more "formal". Comment at Talk:Arizona if you have an opinion. <b style="color:#034503">MB</b> 22:12, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Disagreement over content in SD in Mathematics articles
Hello. I've been getting a good deal of push back from the mathematics community over short descriptions. It seems that very few of the mathematics articles are in line with what's described in WP:SHORTDES. Here are some examples my edits that were reverted (there are more):
 * Universal algebra - "Branch of mathematics" reverted to "Theory of algebraic structures in general"
 * Lattice (order) - "Algebraic structure in order theory" reverted to "Partial order having least upper bounds and greatest lower bounds"
 * Module (mathematics) - "Algebraic structure in ring theory" reverted to "Generalization of vector spaces from fields to rings"
 * Homeomorphism - "Mathematical relationship in topology" reverted to "Isomorphism of topological spaces in mathematics".

The issue is not that my edits were mathematically inaccurate (I am a mathematician and made these edits carefully), but generally because they weren't "descriptive enough" for the editors with these pages on their watchlist. I was wondering if someone with more experience in the Short Description project had any input on whether or not by edits were out of line. I was looking specifically for descriptions that either attempted to define the subject/summarize the lead, used too much jargon, or were simply too long. There is a discussion about the issue currently over on the Project math talk page where more detail is given (both for and against). Donko XI (talk) 11:46, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree completely with your versions. SDs aren't supposed to define the subject, but to contextualize it very concisely. --Macrakis (talk) 17:54, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I think it is a bad idea to fragment the discussion -- the discussion at WT:WPM is much further advanced, people should add comments there instead. --JBL (talk) 17:57, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Vandalism through suggested edits
Hi, Pi bot occasionally (every ~2 weeks) gets reverted on Wikidata after it's copied a short description from an article here that is actually vandalism (ironically since vandalism on Wikidata was thought to be an issue for these). E.g.,, ,. They generally seem to be tagged with "#suggestededit-add 1.0" - not sure where those come from? It's something that clearly offers a free text form, rather than suggesting pre-written text, given the content of the edits. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 22:25, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
 * , this is the result of one of the WMF's brilliant ideas; see mw:Help:Growth/Tools/Suggested edits. (My all-time favorite would be the short description added here: "branch of science about the natural world and how it relates to statistics, prediction, low-entropy thinking, extra sensory perception (ESP), Prophecising, Apocalyptic Revelations, God, The Trinity, David, Kyle, Alpha, Omega, K, Cabal, cosmos, Wikis".) I'm not sure there's too much we can do here: perhaps you could try to convince the WMF Growth team that shortdescs aren't a great thing for newbies to be starting with? Extraordinary Writ (talk) 22:49, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
 * The link doesn't work? But still, probably not something that would have happened if we'd continued to use Wikidata for these? Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 23:00, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
 * link fixed; apologies. The shortdescs added by regular en-wiki users, of course, tend to be very good: the problem is just that the WMF has recently decided to herd newbies (many of whom don't even understand the purpose of a shortdesc) toward adding them as well. I'm not fully conversant in all the Wikidata–Wikipedia political debates (probably for the better), but it seems to me that the suggested-edit issue is quite separate from any other disputes regarding where shortdescs should be stored. (After all, I wouldn't be surprised if the WMF eventually rolled out something similar to this at Wikidata.) The Growth team has been pretty open to feedback, so it might be worth asking them to just disable the shortdesc element of the suggested edit system altogether. (Pinging, who seems to be the point person for such things.) Extraordinary Writ (talk) 23:27, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the link fix. It would be good if you can raise this with the Growth team. We really need better ways of getting newbies started with Wikipedia edits, though. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 23:32, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I track additions to and try to fix up the Short descriptions that are too long. A high percentage of the problem edits are tagged with "#suggestededit-add 1.0". I would be very very pleased if the suggestededit thing did not suggest anything to do with Short descriptions  — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 23:07, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I have opened, FWIW. – Jonesey95 (talk) 06:10, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Hello, , and -- thanks for looking closely at these edits and starting this discussion. "Suggested edits" is a term that we're using to refer to a few different features across different platforms and teams (we're using the same term deliberately, because from the user's perspective, they are all a similar concept). But the suggested edits you're talking about are coming from the Android app -- you'll see that in addition to having the summary "#suggestededit-add 1.0", they also have the edit tag "Android app edit". My team's work on the Growth team is on suggested edits that happen in the web browser. Therefore, I'm tagging, who works with the Android team and can speak to those edits.

But while we're talking about suggested edits, I do want to mention a little bit about the Growth team's work. The main experience built by the Growth team is called the "newcomer homepage", and it contains a feed of suggested edits. These features are geared toward encouraging new account holders to make their first edits successfully, by pointing them to articles that need attention and that are in their topics of interest. The suggested edits feed is populated with articles that have maintenance templates, e.g.. When the user chooses one, the "help panel" gives them guidance on how to complete a good edit. These features have actually been deployed to a portion of English Wikipedia newcomers for much of this year, after lots of community discussion on this page. The results have been positive, and we're actually preparing an RFC to discuss whether the features should be the default onboarding experience for newcomers on this wiki (which is already the case on all other Wikipedias). I hope you all check the materials out and weigh in with any of your thoughts and ideas! You can actually go to your own "newcomer homepage" (or turn it on) by going to Special:Homepage.

One other aspect that I wanted to preview is that the Growth team is working on new types of suggested edits, in which newcomers are guided through completing an easy edit, assisted by an algorithm. The idea behind these is that we want to experiment with experiences that are very low barrier to entry for newcomers, so they can add value without needing to learn so much right off the bat. We've deployed "add a link" to about ten Wikipedias so far (starting this past May), and just two weeks ago we deployed "add an image" to three pilot Wikipedias. Mike, I remember you weighed in on the discussion about "add an image", and you encouraged us to consider adding images to Wikidata instead of directly to Wikipedias. I haven't forgotten that good advice -- but for the first iteration, we built it a simple Wikipedia-oriented way because our priority is to validate whether newcomers can apply good judgment to images and enjoy doing the task. In the future, I could definitely see us rethinking the architecture. Anyway, I hope you all check out the projects and give your thoughts if you have time! -- MMiller (WMF) (talk) 18:53, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
 * It's great work! But you might be trying to be too ambitious by having open text fields. I think the newbies would benefit if you focused more on edits like those made by the distributed Wikidata games - make it more yes/no rather than an open question, at least for the first few edits. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 19:19, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, @Mike Peel. Yes, the "add a link" task is solely a "yes/no" choice, and that's been going well so far -- it has a positive impact on newcomers and a low revert rate.  We have been hearing concerns from some communities that it causes overlinking, and we have ideas for improvement.  With "add an image", the users do need to write a caption, and we expect that will be the most problematic part, especially in non-English languages.  Since the metadata on most images in Commons is English, it's hard for non-English speaking users to have all the information available as they make a decision on adding the image and writing the caption.  Multi-lingual captions on Commons can potentially help with this, but their coverage is still quite low.  Given your experience with Commons, do you have any ideas on how we might help users write a good caption to go with the image on Wikipedia (especially across languages)? MMiller (WMF) (talk) 04:53, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
 * As I said before, I wouldn't. :-) Better to add images to Wikidata instead of Wikipedia articles, where you don't need to add a caption for them. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 08:37, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
 * To comment specifically on the Android app: when this was introduced, there was an edit threshold which required editors to have edited before they were served this a suggested edits. We'll take another look at the data to see what it looks like now – we'll soon update T297341 with the questions we'll be asking and a timeline. Do feel welcome to comment on those plans and if you think they'll give an adequate picture. /Johan (WMF) (talk) 15:51, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
 * So we looked into this and wrote an update here: Wikimedia Apps/Team/Android. We'll continue keeping an eye on it while we keep working on the communication tools in the app, and then return to the usefulness of suggested edits and how we can make them better in July. We appreciate the issue being raised – digging into the numbers, we found things that surprised at least me, e.g. I had thought that we'd have a significant number of bad edits being overwritten and not turning up in the reverts statistics, but this turned out not to be case. Do let us know about any issues, as always. /Johan (WMF) (talk) 14:01, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

40 characters
Who in hell decided that we should stick to 40 characters only? Why? AXO NOV (talk) ⚑ 17:28, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I think that the most most detailed discussion is in Archive 6 of this talk page. Someone who really understands this issue should summarize it, with links to discussion, in an FAQ at the top of this page, since this question comes up frequently. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:39, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Geographic origin in short description?
I noticed that many articles for musical artists are formatted as “[nationality] [occupation] from [home state/origin state].” I feel this is important for many occupations, as origin is an important value proposition for many musical acts. It is also an effective way to build on nationality in the short desc. How do I start a poll to see how others feel about implementing this format on Wiki? ChristianCanada (talk) 02:51, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

I assume by “state,” you mean US state. This therefore feels way too US-centric. Thrakkx (talk) 17:34, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

National Register of Historic Places listings in ....
I'm looking to add "None" to all of the articles like this, and just wanted to check that this was in fact the correct shortdesc before I run over all 4,000 of them. Rusalkii (talk) 01:36, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, that looks right to me, and appears to comply with WP:SDNONE. I have added that description to NRHP date for lists, so you shouldn't need to edit any of the 3,000 articles that transclude that template. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:58, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Well, that rather took the wind out of my sails, when I filtered those out and the ones that already had short descriptions I was left with a whooping 32. Thanks for saving me the work, I've finished those off. Rusalkii  (talk) 06:12, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry to save you from 4,000 tedious edits! I've done enough gnoming, however, to know that there are always 4,000 new tedious edits waiting just around the next corner. – Jonesey95 (talk) 06:44, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
 * (Just realized the joking tone might not have come across, I do really appreciate it!) Rusalkii  (talk) 16:55, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Huh? template needed
For articles, we add templates like or even one like  against text that is confusing, but how do we do that for a confusing Short description? — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 23:05, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Can you give an example? I usually just fix it based on the content of the article. – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:06, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I generally extract a Short description from the first (few) sentences of the article. However, I did have real trouble with Prior probability. The lead is already rather unkind, so a sensible summary was something of a challenge. In the end, I added a question to the talk page and I assume that would be the best way in the future — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 10:41, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
 * For that page I would write "Concept in statistics", but it has been my experience that editors of mathematics articles prefer to ignore the guidance at WP:SDNOTDEF and WP:SDEXAMPLES (see the history of Euler's identity for an example), so I expect that I would be reverted. As for extracting SDs from the lead, in my view, the leads of many mathematics articles are not written well enough for a layperson to get a basic grasp of what they are about; I do not expect to understand the esoteric math, but readers should at least know what realm of mathematics they are visiting. I am sympathetic with your plight here. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:59, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Automatic capitalization of first character
I'm not sure if anybody's brought it up before, but I often find myself capitalizing short descriptions drawn from Wikidata (which stipulates that the first character should be lowercase unless proper) as our MOS prefers the short descriptions be in sentence case. I wonder if there's any way they can be automatically capitalized by default, to save editors time and make everything consistent? I can't think of any cases where we wouldn't want the first letter to be uppercase. ASUKITE 19:55, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I can't think of any cases where we wouldn't want the first letter to be uppercase., for example? &#8213; Qwerfjkl  talk  20:28, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
 * ? — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 20:45, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
 * WP:SDH already does that, although I don't see it stated in the documentation, it is mentioned on the TP. <b style="color:#034503">MB</b> 20:52, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I've never noticed. I just tested it with a random article, Hunger Wall, and viewed in mobile search to see if there was a short desc, which there wasn't. When I then imported the wikidata description, SDH did indeed correct it, so I'm glad I've learned something new at least. Mobile is still not displaying the description in search, but the cache may need to update. ASUKITE  20:57, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
 * When you can't think of any cases, sometimes it helps to do a search. Here's a search that turns up at least 5,000 articles with lower-case short descriptions. The vast majority are errors, but there is valid stuff in there, like "c. 1840 painting...", "none", "macOS software utility...".
 * I estimate that 98% are errors, which makes me think that if we care about the case of the first letter, it might be worthwhile to either automate capitalization of SDs or to create a tracking category for lower-case SDs. In either case, a dedicated whitelist file could list the known exceptions, like "c. ", "iPhone", "macOS", "none", and others so that affected articles would be displayed properly or kept out of the category. – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:14, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
 * @Jonesey95: I've started to go through these (see my contributions). My JWB search turned up at least 10,000 of these. &#8213; Qwerfjkl  talk  22:47, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
 * If you are including ones that come from infobox templates, infobox settlement generates a SD beginning with the settlement type. If that is "town" or "village" for example, the SD should not be overridden, the capitalization should be fixed in the infobox because it is wrong there too. <b style="color:#034503">MB</b> 01:01, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The search is the same as the one provided above, so will only catch insource short descriptions. &#8213; Qwerfjkl  talk  07:37, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
 * @Jonesey95: I've improved my code to do some other minor shortdesc cleanup (fixing the issues in the above section as well), and the error rate is very low (0 so far, and I've checked ~100 articles), so I'm thinking of filing a BRFA, and manually checking over for false positives (it wouldn't be too hard to add a whitelist). What do you think? &#8213; Qwerfjkl  talk  20:58, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I think it sounds reasonable. It might be best to create a tracking category first, by modifying the template, so that the bot could have a well-defined population of pages to operate on. Do you have an exception list in your code for the items listed above, or would you depend on manually going back and reverting the bot's edits? – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:25, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
 * As I'm just doing insource short descriptions, the search is fine. I'll try to add an exception list soon. @MichaelMaggs: ✔️ &#8213; Qwerfjkl  talk  21:51, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
 * @Jonesey95: I now have a whitelist, and if necessary it can match regex. &#8213; Qwerfjkl  talk  17:53, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * While you are at it, maybe you could change to  ? MichaelMaggs (talk) 21:40, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
 * @Jonesey95: I've created a list at User:Qwerfjkl/lcSD of the pages I detected with a lowercase short description (10,303). &#8213; Qwerfjkl  talk  20:39, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * It would be useful for that list to actually show the short descriptions. Do you have any thoughts on deploying the change proposed below so that we can see if your list matches the category contents? It would also allow us to display SDs on the category page using User:SD0001/cat-all-shortdescs.js, providing an easy way to browse for additional whitelist words. – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:02, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree a category would be much easier. My RegEx search may have timed out, so the list could be longer. &#8213; Qwerfjkl  talk  21:12, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Rendering all of the SDs at User:GhostInTheMachine/Test dies after about 1000 lines — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 21:25, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * ... also needs to filter out "none" etc from the whitelist — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 21:28, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I know, it's hard to whitelist words using a RegEx search. It'd be easier just to run the script and check for changes. As a side note, some of the short descriptions are really bad e.g. Bat fly. &#8213; Qwerfjkl  talk  21:34, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * @Jonesey95. &#8213; Qwerfjkl  talk  19:16, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
 * @Jonesey95. &#8213; Qwerfjkl  talk  19:16, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Template to check for lower-case short descriptions
I have hacked together a template to check for lower-case short descriptions at Template:Short description/lowercasecheck. See Template:Short description/lowercasecheck/testcases for an illustration of how it works. On that testcases page, the text "" indicates an invalid lower-case short description.

I have added the new template to Short description/sandbox, and its output can be see at Template:Short description/testcases. Feedback is welcome. If anyone wants to rewrite this template in Lua, be my guest. It seems like an obvious candidate for a module. – Jonesey95 (talk) 00:21, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Also, given that this template is transcluded in more than four million pages, I would love for people to add more testcases if they can think of weird edge cases that might trip up the lower-case checking. – Jonesey95 (talk) 02:21, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I have activated this code in Short description. will start filling up with thousands of articles. Many of them, at least until we get a few affected articles and templates straightened out, may appear to be there in error.
 * If an infobox or other template assigns a short description that starts with a lower-case letter because it uses the value of one of its parameters, it may be appropriate to modify the infobox's code to upper-case that value automatically when it is passed to the short description template. – Jonesey95 (talk) 04:24, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Please note: this new category will be applied if any of the article's short descriptions, whether applied in the article or via a transcluded template, start with a lower-case letter. This is a different flavor of the problem described in the section above about long short descriptions. The workaround is to upper-case all of the article's short descriptions, since they should all be formatted that way anyway. – Jonesey95 (talk) 07:09, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Please note: this new category will be applied if any of the article's short descriptions, whether applied in the article or via a transcluded template, start with a lower-case letter. This is a different flavor of the problem described in the section above about long short descriptions. The workaround is to upper-case all of the article's short descriptions, since they should all be formatted that way anyway. – Jonesey95 (talk) 07:09, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

breaking change
This is nonsense. There is no reason to have  rather than. Either way, you seem to have forgotten annotated link uses short descriptions. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:32, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
 * See User talk:Qwerfjkl for context. &#8213; Qwerfjkl  talk  21:13, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what this has to do with the above discussion. The lower-case detection code has always allowed the lower-case "none" as a short description, per accepted practice and the longstanding guidance on this page. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:00, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Pages with two Short description templates
Hi everybody, I have come across a few articles where there are two instances of the Short description template (see recent history at Table tennis at the 2016 Summer Paralympics – Men's individual – Class 2, Eretria (Thessaly), Illia Yemets or Norman Rockwell for examples). I've been only recently getting into short descriptions, so I'm not sure why that happens when using the Shortdesc helper, but that's also not my question. I was just wondering whether anyone had an idea how to specifically search for pages with two instances of that template (I didn't find anything regarding this in the talk archives). (I also think this would make for a useful maintenance category, but that's a different question.) Thanks in advance for any help! <b style="color:black">Felida</b><sup style="color:black">97 (talk) 22:07, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I use searches like {{code|insource:/\{\{[Ss]hort description.*\{\{[Ss]hort description/}}. Just now this found 690 articles with two templates, before it timed out. The regex search is very expensive, so be sure to use the advanced search and also add the {{tq|Short description}} template under {{tq|Pages with these templates}}. This helps to reduce the search space before the regex is attempted. Adding a subject category as well will also help — GhostInTheMachine {{sup|talk to me}} 23:04, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Under what circumstances does the Shortdesc helper gadget add a second SD template (this edit was in December 2021)? (Assuming that the edit summary is accurate.) That seems like something that should not happen. Here are some more examples of the SD helper gadget apparently adding a second SD: in 2019, in April 2021, in September 2021, and in December 2021. – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:35, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I just reproduced it one way - I opened the same article in two windows and saved the same SD twice. I could see someone getting confused on occasion and actually doing this. <b style="color:#034503">MB</b> 23:43, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The gadget has trouble with a SD template with a space after the template name (see Wikipedia_talk:Shortdesc_helper/Archive_1) or multi-line values as above. That seems that a trailing space is the most frequent cause of having a second template. I have added a change request — GhostInTheMachine {{sup|talk to me}} 09:47, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Wow, thank you so much, that's exactly what I was looking for! It looks like searching by the first character of the article title (using {{code|prefix:}}, so {{code|insource:/\{\{[Ss]hort description.*\{\{[Ss]hort description/ prefix:a}} for example) restricts the search space enough for it not to time out. I just did this for 0-9 and A-Z, and found 2285 articles with two short desc templates (I know I might have missed some articles that start with special characters, but that should only be very few). Thanks again! <b style="color:black">Felida</b><sup style="color:black">97 (talk) 18:53, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

"None" for lists
Should lists such as List of streets in Hamilton, Waikato be written as "none"? If I recall, there's still articles written as "Wikimedia list article" as their short descriptions, which made me confused on what the proper formatting should be. Qwertyxp2000 (talk &#124; contribs) 09:18, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
 * @Qwertyxp2000: I'm still working on this. (30,000 down so far.) &#8213; Qwerfjkl  talk  09:30, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Alrighty. So, consensus is that such articles should have their shortdescs turned to "none"? Qwertyxp2000 (talk &#124; contribs) 09:32, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
 * (too slow editing on a tablet) — "none" (or "None") is normally correct for a list. A bot request for the bulk change was approved about two weeks ago ( Qwerfjkl (bot) 7 ), and many of "us" change any we encounter — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 09:45, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I can only load 10,000 pages at a time (due to search limits), and it takes 5-7 hours to run through them, so progress has been fairly slow. @GhostInTheMachine, I almost always edit on a tablet :) &#8213; Qwerfjkl  talk  10:02, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
 * There's an important distinction to be made here. The bot is setting the default short description for certain lists to 'None': it's a wording that we've agreed is fine in the absence of better individually-crafted manual descriptions. But the bot isn't as I understand it touching already-existing good manual SDs - it has approval just to "replace useless list short descriptions (e.g. 'wikipedia list article ') with 'None'".
 * We definitely don't want editors to get it into their heads that 'None' is the only approved wording, that all list articles should have such wording, and that manual descriptions are not allowed. On the contrary, if an editor wants to manually improve the default in some particular article, they should be encouraged to do so.
 * The specific question was The answer to that is – if 'None' looks good, leave it; if some further explanation would help, feel free to change it to something more informative.  In this specific case, I wonder how many of our international readers know where Waikato is? Rather than leave it with the default 'None', I'd suggest something like "Roads in district of New Zealand" would be better. MichaelMaggs (talk) 11:28, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Wiki app and SDNONE
The Wikimedia app invites readers of articles with : "ADD ARTICLE DESCRIPTION". This seems counterproductive. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:36, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
 * It's a bug, since the article already has a short description template. Is this for Android, iOS, or both? – Jonesey95 (talk) 06:13, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I only have access to Android. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 11:40, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I checked it out on iOS, and it does the same there, except not in all caps. -2pou (talk) 14:27, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Does the WMF know about this bug? Thrakkx (talk) 13:59, 15 March 2022 (UTC)