Wikipedia talk:Teahouse

Bot inoperable
It appears that the bot that leaves talk page notifications that Teahouse threads have been active archived has gone inoperable, and the operator hasn't been around in a few months. Would anyone be interested in taking over the task or filing a request for it to be taken over?  Sdkb  talk 19:32, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
 * For the curious, Tigraan noted back in November 2022 at User talk:Tigraan/Archive 3 that The server [Muninnbot] was running on was shut down and I am supposed to migrate the tool to another one, but I procrastinated doing that. (No promise about when I will fix it.) Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 23:30, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
 * See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Tigraan#Muninnbot:_Digging_Teahouse_archive_links_failure Nick Moyes (talk) 00:37, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
 * To keep discussion on one place, I notified WP:BOTREQ of the existing discussion here. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 02:13, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Maintainer: (inactive 4 months)
 * Bot:
 * Source code: https://gitlab.com/Tigraan/Teahouse-bot/-/blob/master/scripts/teahouse_archival_bot.py
 * BRFA: Bots/Requests for approval/Muninnbot
 * Toolforge account: Muninnbot – Novem Linguae (talk) 04:59, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
 * If what is needed is someone to run and maintain the bot could a current bot op take over the task with the same code on a new bot account? Geardona (talk to me?) 12:14, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
 * @Novem Linguae, is the old source code still functional? – DreamRimmer (talk) 15:19, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Not sure. I think the next step is someone needs to do wikitech:Help:Toolforge/Abandoned tool policy. – Novem Linguae (talk) 19:16, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I've notified Tigraan on their talk pages and via email, as required by the policy :) Frostly (talk) 18:45, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Courtesy link: User talk:Tigraan (permalink just in case). Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 04:42, 8 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Hi folks, bot operator here. Thanks for the notification. I would like to get back to Wikipedia contributions and Muninnbot, but honestly I am not sure I can make that promise due to real-life events. I can however promise to stay around and answer queries in the next couple of weeks or so.
 * What stopped the bot was the migration of Toolforge server. I was supposed to move to the new server, but did not. (Just to be clear: I am not blaming the migration team, the messages were perfectly clear about what ought to be done and by what time.) The code itself should be still working. I have not tested, so changes to dependencies (deprecations etc.) could have broken it; but at least it’s worth a shot. Note also that it has a dead man’s switch, running a couple of unit tests before posting notifications all around, and stopping if any of those fail; that is not guaranteed to catch every bug of course, but it will catch some of them. Looking at the code, it certainly is not perfect but it aged way better than my other years-old projects did. All the important Python code is in this Python file, which should be run via a cron job.
 * The only problem I can envision to getting it back up is the one described at User:Muninnbot/doc: as it stands, the script must be run exactly once between two archival runs, else notifications are missed or duplicated. Back when I set it up, LS3 ran once every day around 5:00UTC, hence just running the bot once a day at a time different from that worked. However, looking at the TH history right now I can see timestamps at various points around the clock. This may be buggy behavior from LS3 (User_talk:Σ seems to mention issues with the bot), but I do not think "runs every day at the same time" was ever a promise made by that bot, so relying on it is not good software design anyway. Fixing it would require development but should not be too hard (simple fix off the top of my head: have a log file that contains the ID of the last LS3 edit to be processed, process every LS3 edit that occurred after that one, update the log).
 * So... next steps that I see:
 * (done) Anyone interested in becoming co-maintainer (,, any others?) files the Toolforge paperwork for adopting the tool. Feel free to link to this post as proof I did not object. I will also specifically say that access to the Toolforge for the tool should include access to secrets therein (I am 90% sure there should be an OAuth token to post as , but without it you cannot really run the bot).
 * (Optional but highly recommended) the same people send me a gitlab ID so I can add them on the gitlab repo (create an account beforehand if needed). Either here, on my user talk page, or via email if you prefer (note that project members on public gitlab repos are public though, so there’s not much privacy point in using email).
 * The same people add themselves at the places they ought to (User:Muninnbot for instance?)
 * Someone (the first one to code it I guess) fixes the LS3 issue mentioned above
 * Someone (the first one to cron it I guess) puts the bot back online at Toolforge
 * If it was me, I would mildly prefer doing #4 before doing #5, but honestly I could imagine myself YOLOing it. If you do so, watch over the LS3 edits for a couple of days.
 * I would imagine the BRFA is still valid - although technically the bot has not edited for two years, it was not due to a change of consensus, and I see no opposition to restarting it in the discussion here. Of course anyone is free to object at any point.
 * That should cover it. Any issues with that plan, questions etc.? Tigraan Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 19:35, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
 * thanks for theresponse . I have only one doubt. I'm not sure if OAuth is required with pywikibot. Years ago when I setup my tool/bot, to post as, all I had to do was create BotPassword, and use it in the config file. Regarding other stuff, I'll respond in 18ish hours. Courtesy ping to . —usernamekiran (talk) 20:22, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks so much for the reply, Tigraan!The easiest / least bureaucratic way to accomplish #1 would be to add myself and usernamekiran as maintainers in the Toolforge admin console. My Toolforge username is EpicPupper (it was my previous Wikimedia username); usernamekiran's looks like it's the same.Re #2, my GitLab username is "frost-ly". Long-term, I'd love to potentially migrate the project to Wikimedia's instance of GitLab.There's a new Toolforge jobs framework that "replaces" cron, which is probably the best-practice way to get the bot up and running again.I agree that the BRFA is likely still valid :)Looking forward to hearing usernamekiran's perspective.Cheers, — Frostly (talk) 03:14, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I have added you both on the Toolforge admin account, and frost-ly on Gitlab.
 * I have not yet logged back on Toolforge to dust off the furniture (new computer, I will need to dig to retrieve the SSH keys). I should be able to do so later this week though. Tigraan Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 19:48, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * hi! Hope you all are well. Just out of curiosity, is this ongoing? Thanks, Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 17:48, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi, apologies, I thought this one was taken care of. I will be busy for 40ish hours from now. But this will be the first thing I will take a look at as soon as I get time. —usernamekiran (talk) 17:54, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I just logged in to the bot's account on toolforge. @Tigraan, and Frostly: I have created a file named "usernamekiran.log" in root directory. I will soon look into the cronjob issue, and I will keep you guys posted. —usernamekiran (talk) 19:50, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Usernamekiran, thank you! Will take a look into the bot as well. — Frostly (talk) 01:15, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Usernamekiran @Frostly You should be able to use botpasswords and OAuth on Toolforge. Tho OAuth in my experience is relatively easier to setup with custom containers. I run a cross-wiki(source) bot with a similar cronjob configuration in the  account on the new Toolforge infrastructure. (The code for my bot is at https://github.com/sohomdatta1/wsstats.git feel free to copy over parts of the boilerplate code if you want). Sohom ( talk ) 05:17, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi. Using OAuth, I was able to login to enwiki with Muninnbot on the first attempt, but I am getting an error with the script. I tried to fix it, but couldnt. I have mailed Tigraan, hopefully they will respond soon. —usernamekiran (talk) 11:17, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

"Publish" vs. "save"
I'm curious to hear from other hosts about what you've been encountering with editors being confused by the button to save an edit when creating a new page being labelled "publish" rather than "save," as it used to be. It seems that this has caused a lot of confusion, e.g. here, here (both handled by @331dot), here, and here, among many others. We have the ability to change it at MediaWiki:Publishchanges if we decide to do so.  Sdkb  talk 02:36, 17 March 2024 (UTC)


 * I don't think we can change it; as I understand it was Wikipedia's lawyers who wanted it changed, to emphasize that every edit is public. Apparently "save" does not carry that implication. I think we just have to live with it. 331dot (talk) 08:00, 17 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Users think, understandably, that "Publish" means "put in mainspace". Some want to put their draft into mainspace and are puzzled when "Publish" doesn't do that. Others just want to save edits to their draft but can't find a "Save" button. It's strange that lawyers think WP's legal position is stronger when its users don't understand what they're doing. Maproom (talk) 14:17, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I've wondered if there was a way to reword it to both make it clear what the button does and satisfy the concerns of the lawyers(who I think are trying to avoid users saying "I didn't know that would be public!" or some other legal concern) but I feel like that would be hard to do in a concise manner with a minimum of confusion. 331dot (talk) 14:46, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I've thought about it a bit and think the solution isn't in the wording (as both put us in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation), but in a warning dialogue box that says something along the lines of: Warning: Your edits will be publicly viewable. If you wish to keep your edits private you will have to do it off-site. This would be enabled by default for non-autoconfirmed users and removed once they become autoconfirmed. Unfortunately, IP addresses would most likely have to be left out as there's no way to differentiate between veteran editors who wish to remain anonymous versus complete newbies. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 14:57, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
 * , instead of the current.
 * There's already a disclaimer by such buttons (including the "Reply" button on talk pages) giving full details. Bazza 7 (talk) 14:57, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Speculating about what's legally necessary rather than seeking clarification is a surefire way for us to get bogged down in circles. @Slaporte (WMF), can you let us know if there's any legal reason the button needs to say "publish" rather than "save"? <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:8pt 0;padding:1px 5px;background:linear-gradient(6rad,#86c,#2b9)"> Sdkb  talk 16:26, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The answer (I assume Slaporte isn't going answer at this point) is because "Save" led to a lot of newbies believing that the contents were being saved privately, and thus were a perfectly safe place to make a note about your password, or your home phone number, or to stash a copy of a copyrighted text that you meant to cite. We also had problems with students who thought that 'Save' meant 'My supervising teacher will not be able to see this yet'.  The UI needs to give people the information that they need to protect their privacy.  Since the meaning of 'Save' shifted in the public's mind from the 1990s idea of 'This puts a copy on a hard disk' to the 2010s idea of 'When I save my e-mail draft, it does not send it to anyone yet', new users didn't feel like what they expected from a 'Save' button is what they actually got from the big blue button.
 * It's probably worth noting that the group of experienced editors who never complain about this change are the ones who worked in Oversight before this change was made.
 * If memory serves, the Hebrew Wikipedia got approval from WMF Legal to use "Save and publish". I don't know whether this solves any actual problems.  I assume that the net result is to have newbies ask "Where's the plain 'Save' button?  I only want to save it.  I don't want to publish it yet."  At the time, a significant part of their idea was that it would ease the transition by retaining and expanding the old wording, rather than replacing it completely.  I do not think that such a change would be helpful to us.  (Also, as a matter of pure personal aesthetics, I don't happen to like it myself.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:33, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * See this announcement for background (and further discussion further down the page). 57.140.16.57 (talk) 19:07, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I do regularly (though not frequently) encounter questions from new users who are confused by the publish button. I find it somewhat embarrassing to have to trot out the "it's a legal requirement that's been forced on us" explanation on each occasion. It is time-consuming to have to explain what the difference between 'publish' and 'Publish' means. But I haven't experienced the constant confusion amongst large numbers of new editors that I had actually expected. If I could change it back, I would, as it's the most logical title when saving edits in a draft. But I suspect most new users manage to understand it well enough, and that we are where we are, and are stuck with it. Nick Moyes (talk) 23:11, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Uh, what exactly is the "Teahouse"?
I'm still kind of confused, sorry if this shouldn't be written here. Crylophosaurus (talk) 03:03, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi, . The Teahouse is just a place where beginners can ask questions about how to edit Wikipedia.  Actually, anybody can ask, but it is aimed at beginners.  It is just like the Help desk except that people here at the Teahouse make an extra effort to be patient and not "bite" the newbies.--Gronk Oz (talk) 06:11, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Gronk Oz How do I ask a question at the teahouse? I am working on a device with some restrictions and cannot use any links that redirect out of the Wikipedia app. Do I just edit the question in? Jacobacademy (talk) 19:12, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi, Sorry you are having trouble.  You don't have to leave the app to ask a question.  If you go to the Teahouse (WP:TEA), you will see a big blue button near the top that says "Ask a Question".  Press that and it will open an edit window for a new question.  Or if you prefer you could edit the page to add your question at the bottom - but the button is the better way (especially since multiple people might be editing at once, which can cause problem with clashing edits).  Note that the page you are on now is not the Teahouse itself - this is its Talk page, to discuss how the Teahouse works, raise problems with it, etc.  So to ask a general question about editing Wikipedia, make sure you go to WP:TEA first.  I hope that helps.--Gronk Oz (talk) 01:41, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Someone should close this discussion
Someone (preferably an admin) should probably close WP:THQ since it's a discussion that's going nowhere and seems more for the OP's vanity than anything else. I would close it myself, but I've just commented in it and feel it would be a bit odd for me to do so. -- Marchjuly (talk) 13:50, 14 April 2024 (UTC)


 * @Marchjuly I'm not sure closing is really necessary. Looks to me like it's come to a natural end and isn't going to continue. But feel free to close it if you wish. (As you know, I commented, too). Nick Moyes (talk) 19:59, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
 * You're right . I was actually going to self-revert this post first thing since I reached the same assessment, but I'll leave it here now just for reference. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:17, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Are we allowed to remove questions?
Hi. I was wondering if removal of posts are allowed, if it is obvious that the asker is not here for help. (Such as this one) Thanks! (talk | contribs) 11:05, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi . In my opinion, your best bet is to probably follow the guidance in WP:TPO, particularly WP:TPG. If you assess the post to be a serious violation of a policy like WP:BLP, WP:OUTING, WP:COPY, etc., you can probably remove it asap but should leave an appropriate edit summary explaining why. You then probably should seek assistance from an administrator (there are usually a few active at the Teahouse at various times of the day but there's always one at WP:AN) and ask them to review it because it might need to be WP:REVDEL if it's really bad. If it's a case of someone posting too much of their own personally identifying information (email addresses, phone numbers, real names, etc.), you can use the template redacted as well, politely explain to the person who posted why, and then contact an admininstrator or WP:OVERSIGHT to see if revdel or WP:SUPPRESS is needed. If it's just someone rambling about something unrelated to the Wikipedia per editing or something not really within the scope of the Teahouse (i.e. a general reference question), you can politely respond that such a thing isn't within the scope of the Teahouse and redirect the person to another Wikipedia page or another external website (if one exists). You can try to answer the person's question if you want, but that might lead to further discussion that might end up needing to be closed at some point. A lot could depend on the context of the post. For certain things, sometimes this posting a WP:DISCLAIMER like response works best because trying to delve into too much detail (especially about sensitive subject matters) might create a new set of problems.The account who made the post you're asking about has already been blocked for disruption, so there's no point in warning them about. The posts it made at the Teahouse have already been removed by an administrator named . For reference, though, posts like this could probably be non-contentiously removed per WP:R VAN or WP:TPG if you want, but you might want to check the poster's contributions' history first to see whether they're just drive by posting and have already been dealt with or they could possibly be asking a "legit" question. -- Marchjuly (talk) 13:11, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the detailed reply! I understand now.  (talk | contribs) 13:31, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @CanonNi How do I put in a question. Do I edit it in? Jacobacademy (talk) 19:18, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

WP:Drafts - proposed split
There is currently a discussion at WT:Drafts regarding a proposed split of WP:Drafts. The thread is WT:Drafts#Split into help page and guideline. Thank you. S0091 (talk) 17:03, 24 April 2024 (UTC)


 * The wikilink is messed up a bit. The discussion is at Wikipedia talk:Drafts. —⁠andrybak (talk) 00:00, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Dadvan Yousuf
There seems to be a coordinated effort to get "first Iraqi on Everest" into the article Dadvan Yousuf. In these two days alone, there have been five accounts asking about it here and on the article's talk page. Is there something we can do?   [[User:CanonNi ]]  (talk • contribs) 09:47, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Not really, besides direct people to the talk page and provide reliable sources. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 15:34, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * You could put an FAQ on the talk page but I have a hunch that it'd mostly get scrolled on by. -- D'n'B-t -- 18:52, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikitia discussion seems to have moved beyond the scope of the Teahouse
I think that WP:THQ probably should be closed down because it has moved beyond the scope of the Teahouse. Assuming that the OP isn't trolling, there's nothing Wikipedia can do about Wikitia anyway and the IP's/OP's last response has even further moved a discussion in a direction that's just might lead to some things being posted that shouldn't be posted. Since you two are admins and both responded to the OP, the discussion could be continued on the OP's user talk page if either of you want to, but I don't see anything further to be gained by doing so at the Teahouse. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:02, 3 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Anyone can close a discussion, it doesn't have to be an administrator. I just wrapped it in archive tags. ~Anachronist (talk) 15:48, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm aware of that anyone can close a discussion, but I figured I give one of you the chance to do so given that the two of you had posted several responses; moreover, as admins, you're also capable of WP:REVDEL if you deem it to be necessary. Anyway, it's a moot point now since you closed the discussion and another user courtesy blanked it. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:23, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 June 2024
I asked my actual question here, whoops. I would like to request permission to ask questions in the Teahouse. TheSoS9k 16:47, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * ✅ – sorry, there was some spamming so editing is temporarily restricted. It'll be back to normal in a few hours. If you need to reply to a comment on your question, just reply here and notify the user with . Tollens (talk) 17:00, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Tollens How do I put in a question? Jacobacademy (talk) 19:19, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

First edit stats
Some of you might be interested in some first edit stats I asked for.

BLUF: 70% of first edits are to an existing page, and 90% of those are to the mainspace/articles. If your first edit is to create a new page, then a third of them get deleted within the first week. Only 1 in 60 of those first-edit page creations get moved to the mainspace, and about 20% of those get deleted shortly afterwards.

The queries are query/84512 and query/84486 if anyone ever wants to re-run them in the future. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:42, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

"Teahouse (Wikipedia)" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Teahouse_(Wikipedia)&redirect=no Teahouse (Wikipedia)] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached.  cogsan (nag me)  (stalk me) 12:28, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

How do I ask a question?
I don't know how to edit one in and I am incapable of using the "Ask a question" link because I cannot use links that redirect me outside of the Wikipedia app. Jacobacademy (talk) 19:23, 7 July 2024 (UTC)


 * @Jacobacademy I just noticed that from the app the button redirects you to the browser. You can then ask your question from the browser (I would recommend it over the app). Alternatively, from the app, go to Teahouse, scroll down to the last topic at the bottom of the page, click the edit button and add a new topic there. Make sure you add a header for your topic between double equal signs, like this: == Header ==.
 * Note for the Teahouse experts: the button should not redirect outside the app. Anyone knows how this could be fixed? Broc (talk) 21:17, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This appears to be because the template clickable button 2 takes url as a parameter, which requires a full URL, not a wikilink. This is presumably done to immediately put the user into edit mode, and it would be impossible to do so with a wikilink. With the introduction of DiscussionTools and the Reply tool I'm not sure how redundant that would make the button. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:10, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Welco me to the Teaho use!
Hi all. Please try looking at WP:TH on a phone in mobile view mode and in its default portrait mode. Many users will see it this way. Sadly, our Teahouse image is so large that it forces our welcome message to be (rather humorously) spread across 6 separate lines as shown:

Welco me to the Teaho use!

I think we need to fix this so that the image size is reduced in mobile view and the text reads more normally. Hopefully, some experienced template editors could take a look? Pinging Sdkb who, I know, has worked on this before. Cheers, Nick Moyes (talk) 17:56, 11 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Definitely a problem. Coding a more mobile-friendly header requires someone with more knowledge of HTML stylings than me, though. <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:8pt 0;padding:1px 5px;background:linear-gradient(6rad,#86c,#2b9)"> Sdkb  talk 19:15, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Sdkb. Maybe @PrimeHunter could suggest how we might take this forward. Perhaps a post at WP:VPT asking for help? Nick Moyes (talk) 04:06, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Nick Moyes @Sdkb I fixed it, see diff, by ensuring the Teahouse image is at most 50% of the total width in mobile view. I tested it with various mobile sizes and it seems to work well. Please let me know if you find a bug or the change is not to your liking. Broc (talk) 10:27, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Broc Thank you! That looks a whole lot better now. On my mobile, it's nearly, but not quite perfect, as I'm seeing the header welcome message properly laid out, although the text beneath it (i.e. "Your go-to place... ...and editing Wikipedia") all right justified, apart from the last two words (..."editing Wikpedia") which I suspect have slipped under the Teahouse image and now appear centrally justified. But I can live with that. Thanks again, Nick Moyes (talk) 13:31, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Nick Moyes that was already happening on my phone (which I assume has a higher resolution than yours). The reason for this is that the "Welcome to the Teahouse!" message is in the same column of the buttons "Ask a question" etc. "Sticking" the column to the right would cause all the buttons to appear on the right side instead of full-size.
 * It's not an unsolvable issue but it would require some larger changes, so I decided to only apply this minor fix. Broc (talk) 15:15, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That’s absolutely fine. I didn’t mean to sound critical. We’re grateful that you’ve made it look a lot better than it was. Thanks again, Nick Moyes (talk) 23:41, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

hi
I'm Caden I'm 8 I want to make a custom phone no rules! but how Ohiogyatt12 (talk) 22:57, 13 July 2024 (UTC)


 * @Ohiogyatt12 Your question does not make much sense, as it not about how to edit Wikipedia. That is all we can help you with here. Whilst it's great that an eight year old like you is interested in technology, but it's really too young to be trying to edit this very complicated encyclopaedia.
 * If when you're older you do ever need help in understanding how to edit Wikipedia, this is not the right page to do it on. Please ask HERE instead. Best wishes, Nick Moyes (talk) 13:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)