Wikipedia talk:Teahouse/Archive 27

Account temporarily compromised but control restored
Hi all. My son has recently been dipping his hand into editing and accidentally made an edit using a device I was logged in with (unbeknownst to me, they'd been asking questions at the Teahouse). I'm really sorry about this but the device is back under my control. I've reverted the edit but is there anything else I should do? I will obviously recluse myself from answering his questions! Cordless Larry (talk) 17:24, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The edit has now been suppressed by request, which reduces my embarrassment somewhat, though I still feel pretty silly that I allowed this to happen. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:52, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I suppose I'm biased, but of all the things which could be done with a compromised admin account, asking a (good faith) question at the Teahouse is the best possible one. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 16:11, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree, this is probably the best outcome that one could hope for in a situation like this. — Mugtheboss (talk) 16:16, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

INDEX
Why is the Teahouse not indexed by default? Toadette (chat)/(logs) 18:07, 17 September 2023 (UTC)


 * @ToadetteEdit It's not something I've really thought about, but, because completed Teahouse discussions get archived after just a few days, I imagine there'd be little point in search engines indexing them. Any links to discussions would soon be redundant. In addition, individual discussion threads appearing outside of the Wikipedia space would probably attract unwanted and irrelevant attention from non-Wikipedia users and end up being disruptive to our work in supporting the needs of active editors. Nick Moyes (talk) 16:14, 18 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The Teahouse, and the Help desk, are not "part of the encyclopedia". They exist to help with the construction of the encyclopedia. This is also true of user pages, and article talk pages, and drafts, and policy guides. Only actual articles, and disambiguation pages and suchlike, constitute the encyclopedia itself. Maproom (talk) 21:59, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Edit requests
Help at User:AnomieBOT/SPERTable and User:AnomieBOT/EPERTable is appreciated. The amount of unresponded requests is increasing, and these can be nice for new users (autoconfirmed) as well, since most are just minor typo fixes. NotAGenious (talk) 05:54, 17 October 2023 (UTC)


 * @NotAGenious: I reviewed each request and responded to a few. There are no more minor typo fix requests. GoingBatty (talk) 14:17, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
 * There were ~10, but I did most of them last night. My point was that typo fix requests are indeed common. NotAGenious (talk) 14:23, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Hosts changing their usernames
Just a gentle reminder to all hosts who might in the future change their Usernames to ensure that they also change their entry in our list of hosts, please. New users following links from the 'Meet your hosts' page are liable to be confused if they arrive at a page with a different name. I've just fixed four that needed changing, and it'd be great if editors would think about making this update themselves, as I only ever check the list in detail every 6 months or so. Cheers, Nick Moyes (talk) 21:07, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Request: Editors Interested in Wikipedia Research Ethics
Hi All. I was directed to this space to find 3-5 editors are interested in joining us and other editors in a remote online workshop to talk about Wikipedia community values and how they interplay with research that is conducted on/with Wikipedia. We're in a bit of a bind with scheduling a synchronous workshop and would really appreciate any help! If this is not the space for this kind of request, I apologize in advance and will promptly remove this post. If you're interested, you can learn more at our Meta Research Page. Leave a comment here or on our talk page and I can reach out with more information. Zentavious (talk) 16:00, 27 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi Zentavious. As this page is for the management of the Teahouse help forum, and is likely to be watched by experienced editors who act as 'Hosts' to assist newcomers in issues around editing Wikipedia, I think some of them may well be interested in having an input into your research. So, I suggest your post remains.
 * However, I think there are other fora where you could more effectively seek input from us.
 * One of those is to repeat your post at WP:Village pump (miscellaneous) - a place to raise matters that don't neatly fit into our many other specific fora. (It has 2,600 people 'watching' it.)
 * The other forum, when you want to reach administrators and a suite of very active (and often quite opinionated!) editors, is to post at WP:Administrators' noticeboard. (5,260 watchers).
 * If you haven't yet seen them, you might wish to read and and follow relevant links at these pages on English Wikipedia:
 * WP:NOTLAB (this is a subsection of one of our Policies that we require all researchers to follow.)
 * WP:Ethically researching Wikipedia (an Information page)
 * Research (just an essay, and not a formal Policy or Guideline)
 * WP:Disruptive editing (a behavioural guideline that we expect anyone doing academic research on Wikipedia does not fall foul of)
 * I hope you might find some of this helpful. Regards, Nick Moyes (talk) 22:03, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi @Nick Moyes, thank you so much for your guidance. I'm familiar with a few of those pages! I will definitely raise this on Village_pump_(miscellaneous). Cheers, Zentavious (talk) 14:58, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Recurring questions about "profile"
Both here and at WP:Help Desk there are frequently questions about about a "profile" (or, worse, "my profile") meaning an article about that person (or, worse, themselves). The mere presence of the word "profile" in this context triggers the thought that the enquirer subconsciously thinks that Wikipedia is in the same category as social media services such as Facebook, Twitter/X, Instagram, etc. and about the person in question promoting themselves and having controls over their "profile" there.

Might it be useful to have a guideline or essay, perhaps WP:Article not Profile, to which such enquirers could be immediately directed, as the first port of call, to learn the background and context of how WP articles and social media profiles are very different?

Feline Hymnic (talk) 21:41, 4 November 2023 (UTC)


 * WP:NOTCV could be a good start in such cases, but I agree a separate guideline may be helpful, too. --CiaPan (talk) 22:38, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh, I'd overlooked WP:NOTCV. Thanks for the pointer/reminder to it! Feline Hymnic (talk) 22:43, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @Feline Hymnic As a point of interest, it probably didn't help that, until mid-2019, Teahouse hosts were still telling people "We don't have profiles here!"  whilst our own Teahouse page continued to present "Host Profiles" (diff).  We even encouraged 'Guest Profiles' in the early years of the Teahouse, too! (see here). Nick Moyes (talk) 23:52, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
 * And we also say (correctly) "articles, not pages", implicitly referring to article space. Yet we often use "page" when referring to the (very different) "User:" space! Feline Hymnic (talk) 00:18, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * That is very true! Nick Moyes (talk) 15:01, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I added "profile" to WP:NOTCV. Cullen328 (talk) 00:22, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd say articles are a subset of pages rather than mutually exclusive. For the sake of avoiding redundant essays, improving NOTCV to address the queries here seems a good solution. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 14:30, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * All Wikipedia articles are pages, but not all Wikipedia pages are articles. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 15:14, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Telling new users "we don't have pages, we have articles" is totally unhelpful. -- asilvering (talk) 16:51, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I hope it would be helpful to emphasize that Wikipedia has encyclopedia articles that are independent of their subjects, not social media profiles. Hopefully people are familiar enough with traditional encyclopedias and social media to understand the difference in such a comparison. GoingBatty (talk) 17:13, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I added shortcut WP:NOTPROFILE. Mathglot (talk) 18:47, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd thought about that. But thanks for actually doing it! Nick Moyes (talk) 22:52, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

I see that seems to have some useful standard text. Might this be useful to include or abstract? "Hello, , and welcome to the Teahouse. I'm afraid you are in the same position as thousands of other people who ask questions here, who register an account, and immediately plunge into one of the most challenging tasks there is: creating a new article. This is like buying a musical instrument you have never played before, and immediately going out busking: you are going to have a frustrating and miserable time. I always advise new editors to spend a few weeks or months learning how Wikipedia works by making improvements to some of our six million articles before they try to create a new article. (They will probably over those months add far more value to Wikipedia than they would by trying to make an article before they are ready). When you think you might be ready to try creating an article, read WP:YFA and especially NCORP (if it is a company). For most companies in the world you will quickly discover that there are not sufficient quality sources to establish notability, and there is no point in trying to create an article about them."

Feline Hymnic (talk) 13:53, 6 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you, Feline Hymnic. A few years ago I did distil something I often wrote into a template, HD/WINI, which I still often use. But I haven't distilled the above - so far. Anybody else is welcome to do so.
 * On the main subject, I see that back in 2012 I started writing an essay User:ColinFine/Wikipedia doesn't have profiles, but I didn't get very far. ColinFine (talk) 14:15, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @Feline Hymnic Hi there!  I like your template, but wonder if "busking" is a common enough word for people to understand.  Maybe replace it with "performing"?  Thanks! GoingBatty (talk) 16:06, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Not my template; ColinFine's! Feline Hymnic (talk) 16:25, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @Feline Hymnic: Apologies for that. Fixed the ping.  GoingBatty (talk) 16:29, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I haven't made this into a template so far, GoingBatty. I used to talk about "playing a recital", but I thought that would be too far from many people's experience: everybody knows buskers, but perhaps not the word. ColinFine (talk) 22:45, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I find it useful to say something like this, though as a personal rule I don't use canned responses aside from welcometea here at the Teahouse. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 18:00, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Me too. I maintain a long page of 'useful' answers that I've written which I feel I might want to use again - but I rarely do, preferring to write a bespoke answer each time to make life more interesting. Nick Moyes (talk) 00:13, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Deletion of my Question
Excuse my asking, as I'm sure there are good reasons, but why was my question about how to add sections to articles removed? Did I put it in the wrong place or word anything the wrong way? I hope that it can be restored for myself and other users if we want to add sections to articles, if you don't mind my repetition. Triviatronic9000 (talk) 01:43, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

I asked this question before but it got deleted for some reason.

I want to add a section about live events to the Tree Fu Tom Wikipedia page, but I don't know how. I would look here, but as I said, my question on that got deleted. I won't ask anyone to answer again in case it gets deleted again, but can someone please add a tutorial on how to add sections on that tutorial on how to use Wikipedia? Triviatronic9000 (talk) 02:14, 1 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Hello, . Your question was not removed. It was archived. Here is the answer I wrote for you on November 1. Inactive threads get archived in two to three days. Cullen328 (talk) 02:10, 7 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Hello, Triviatronic9000. Please read Help:Section. I use the source editor, which makes it very easy to create a section. In the edit window, on a new line, you type two equal signs, then the new section mame, then two more equal signs. The wikicode code looks like this:
 * ==New section==


 * It is that easy. Cullen328 (talk) 02:31, 1 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Worth noting it was archived, after 48 hours; but the archive then got borked by an unclosed reference added in a later update on 6 November, which I've just fixed diff. So the archived question can now be seen at Teahouse/Questions/Archive 1204. --Tagishsimon (talk) 02:16, 7 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi . As pointed out above, your questions were archived; the first one can be found at Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive 1199 and the second one (the one Cullen328 answered) can be found at Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive 1204. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:18, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Not just you but everyone who replied. Why archive the question? One of the reasons I ask is so that anyone who comes wanting to have the same question I had answered can have it answered without asking. Sorry if I sound... spoiled, for lack of a better word for asking. Triviatronic9000 (talk) 03:10, 7 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Because otherwise the page gets too long. It is a very high traffic page - lots of questions per day. --Tagishsimon (talk) 03:11, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah. Reasonable enough, I suppose. Thanks Triviatronic9000 (talk) 03:24, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, if we didn't archive it, it would be illegible and take forever to load... sort of like EEng's talk page but not that bad, obviously. Edward-Woodrow (talk) 22:41, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Special:Homepage
As a general note, Teahouse hosts should probably, at least once, enable the Newcomer Homepage in their preferences. All new accounts have this turned on by default, and it is their landing page, on par with, and as accessible as, their User: and User talk: pages.Hosts not being familiar with, for example, what the Impact Module looks like is probably just as inexplicable to newer editors as it feels to us whenever we encounter someone who doesn't know they have a talkpage. Folly Mox (talk) 13:27, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the advice. I had a look at my "Homepage". I learned from the "Impact" seesion that the most viewed article I've edited was Star of David. I've no recollection of ever editing (or even reading) it; maybe I did once. I was encouraged to do some copy-editing on Hui mian, and did so. Then I found that the most viewed article I've edited is now Macau. I learned that I have a mentor, who has made about 1/10 as many edits as me.
 * If a new user ever asks me about their Newcomer Homepage, I shall tell them that it's a rather weird place which they can safely ignore. Maproom (talk) 17:52, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh right I forgot to mention you may be assigned a mentor you'll have to unassign. That happened to me too.And yeah, the Impact Module is kinda misrepresentative. It caps out the "edits in the past 60 days" stat at 1000, for example, and teaches us more about pageviews than our own contributions (I doubt my fix of a single template error in a reference on the article Google improved the reading experience for all 400,000+ people who opened the article since then). But yeah it's the new default so may as well experience it to stay in touch with the kids these days. Folly Mox (talk) 08:44, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The impact part of somebody else's Special:Homepage can be seen by manually making a link like Special:Impact/Folly Mox. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:36, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I have made User:PrimeHunter/Impact.js which adds an "Impact" link for a user whose userspace you are in. PrimeHunter (talk) 02:07, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * This is very useful to know. Thank you and thank you, . I agree that hosts should probably be familiar with all the Growth Team features and at least some general knowledge of the mentoring and editor retaining efforts. -- A Rose  Wolf  13:25, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm adding myself to the host list!
—since I try to help a lot anyway. I haven't done so yet because I've spent a considerable time learning on the job, including how to always be friendly and as helpful as possible. Of course it doesn't mean anything particular, I just wanted others to know that me adding myself to the host list is coming with an explicit commitment to be the best host possible. :) cheers! Remsense  留  23:17, 3 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Nice to have you involved &#123;{u&#124;  Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 07:01, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Welcome to hosting and I echo @Sdkb. It is nice to have you involved. -- A Rose Wolf  13:27, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Talkback script
So, I've installed the talkback script, and am getting into the habit of using it—but I do note that it asks for the question to be reentered—it seems possible that this could be done automatically, since the button is in the context of a header on the page regardless. I assume this has been discussed before? Remsense  留  06:49, 6 January 2024 (UTC)


 * You're referring to User:Qwerfjkl/scripts/talkback? I haven't used that script and aren't too familiar with it, but you could share suggestions with the script's author, Qwerfjkl.
 * Putting talkbacks on users' talk pages has become less important now that the WP:Talk pages project has rolled out the subscription feature, which makes it so that editors will now automatically be notified about replies to threads they start at the Teahouse, even if we forget to ping them (which we always should, since it'll result in a bolder red notification rather than a blue one). A talkback will still give them the orange bar, which is the most noticeable of all, but I don't tend to bother with it unless I see someone continuing a behavior seemingly unaware of a response at the Teahouse. In our role educating editors about how Wikipedia works, we should be modeling normal pinging behavior, and talkbacks aren't used anywhere else these days. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 07:00, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
 * That makes sense, thank you—I feel the TB was a bit of a "making extra extra sure" gesture—I just wanted to make sure I was acting inline with expectations in the Teahouse host guidelines. Perhaps they should be tweaked to reflect this?  Remsense  留  10:34, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'd support that. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 20:27, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Is the Teahouse targeting women?
From the link on the Teahouse page, I was reading https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Teahouse, where it says Is this true? I have been a Teahouse regular for many years and I have never seen anything at the Teahouse or anywhere else on Wikipedia that suggests it is targeting women users, only that it is supposed to be friendly for any new user. Was this a goal at one time that has since been dropped, or is there something I am missing that encourages women to come to the Teahouse? RudolfRed (talk) 20:17, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @RudolfRed: I noted that the phrase "women are a particular target population" was in the original version of the Wikimedia page from 29 November 2011. I'm not aware of people making a special effort now to encourage women in particular to come to the Teahouse (but there are many things of which I'm not aware). GoingBatty (talk) 20:38, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * The Teahouse arose out of a bunch of Foundation research on welcoming new users; the version that operates today has evolved a lot from that. Wanting to welcome women may have influenced some of the earlier decisions, such as the Teahouse's visual design. Today, I think the friendliness approach we take is naturally more likely to aid female editors who come here, given that women are less likely to endure hostile online environments than men. I also know that when culling the list of active Teahouse hosts in the past, we've given a bit more leniency to female hosts. Trying to make the Teahouse welcoming to women should be something we always have in mind as we try to fight systemic bias, but it dovetails pretty well with the things we do to make it welcoming for folks of all genders. Cheers, &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 20:42, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * "Today, I think the friendliness approach we take is naturally more likely to aid female editors who come here, given that women are less likely to endure hostile online environments than men." Not true.
 * "I also know that when culling the list of active Teahouse hosts in the past, we've given a bit more leniency to female hosts." Care to elaborate? Biolitblue (talk) 01:03, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * RudolfRed, while it is old verbiage, I do agree with Sdkb on the benefits offering a variety of social approaches may potentially have for editors of different genders. — Remsense  诉  23:40, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks, everyone, for the replies. RudolfRed (talk) 04:01, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I was thinking it was a vandalism leftover, as a woman myself, it really confuses me, and I think it should be removed as to promote neutrality and/or positivity among all groups. Cometkeiko (talk) 12:24, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Cometkeiko, this seems perfectly reasonable, especially as it's not contingent to the goals of the Teahouse at present. I would be interested in hearing more from others about removing the passage. — Remsense  诉  12:27, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I think the meta page is at this point largely a historical report document indicating how the foundation thought about the Teahouse c. 2012. I wouldn't be opposed with a notice at the top indicating that more clearly, but I don't think it'd be appropriate for us to change it. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 15:09, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't have an issue with it staying as is. -- A Rose Wolf  16:28, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

 * Thanks, @CactiStaccingCrane, but wouldn't this be a bit better placed on the talk page? 57.140.16.1 (talk) 17:17, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
 * (And now it is on the talk page, due to MAGIC ) 57.140.16.1 (talk) 17:34, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
 * -:-) CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 02:37, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Brilliant idea indeed, but I thought barnstars are for users. Abdullah raji (talk) 13:17, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I remember that a very long Wiki-time ago (in about 2006 or so), a group received a "WikiMedal for janitorial services" (I was one of them). Not a barnstar per se, but I always took it that if an award is given to a group, everyone involved (say, Teahouse hosts) have been awarded the recognition. Lectonar (talk) 14:49, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Teahouse Hosts!
Is Teahouse Host a formal position here, like Administrator? Or is it more like Editor in Wikipedia at large, referring to anybody who ever comments on a question (or adds a comma to an article)? Uporządnicki (talk) 15:05, 1 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Slightly in between — there's a listing at WP:Teahouse/Hosts, which is the sense in which it's formal, but anyone can help respond to queries.  Sdkb  talk 15:09, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I haven't joined the official list because I don't want to feel an obligation to contribute regularly. There are several regular contributors who are not on the list and a few that are on the list but almost never contribute. Nick Moyes occasionally removes those who have stopped contributing. The only important requirements for contributors, IMO, is that their answers are largely accurate and made politely. Mike Turnbull (talk) 16:08, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I believe it's a holdover from when the Teahouse was first established, but the concept doesn't hold any significance as to who may answer questions, so long as said answers are accurate, courteous, and helpful. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 18:18, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
 * @AzseicsoK As has been said, it's a very informal title which people who do feel they help out here quite a lot here might wish to give themselves. But anyone is free to answer other users' questions at any time without signing up as a Host (so long as they give helpful answers!). I regard it is a very good first step for some editors who are becoming interested in some of the behind-the-scenes administration and support work to do. That's probably how I started my own journey to becoming an admin when @Cullen328 suggested I participated here as a Host. It taught me so much (and I'm still learning from other people's answers to this day)
 * All that said, a very tiny number of editors do occasionally sign themselves up as a 'Host' for the wrong reasons (see WP:HATCOLLECT or WP:CIR) and they do get removed in due course, as do those who have never made much - or any - contribution here, or have got themselves blocked or regularly warned for inappropriate behaviour. The key things any Host needs is to be polite, patient, helpful and welcoming.
 * You will find a tiny handful of names of editors on the host list who are not actively answering questions nowadays, but have nevertheless played a very significant role in the establishment and running of the Teahouse in the past, or who still do research or bot-related activities here. I hope this additional info is of interest. Nick Moyes (talk) 20:31, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
 * and I'm still learning from other people's answers to this day is probably the most relatable thing here. I've got this place watchlisted primarily to answer questions I feel I can answer, but also just to learn stuff I probably never would've done by contributing anywhere elsewhere. There's such a wide array of questions asked here that you'll never stop learning. CommissarDoggoTalk?  22:23, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Meet your hosts formatting
In signing up to be a Teahouse host I have managed to mess up the formatting of my entry (specifically the image). Obligatory. If anyone knows how to retroactively amend this do let me know!  Unexpected lydian♯4 talk‽  22:05, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * @Unexpectedlydian: in this edit. The template only calls for the file name and nothing else. — Tenryuu 🐲  ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:38, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Amazing, thank you  Unexpected lydian♯4 talk‽  22:39, 12 March 2024 (UTC)