Wikipedia talk:Teahouse/Archive 7

great place for getting a start
teahouse seems to be a great place for a mere beginner like me as a wikipedian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Benisonpanthaplackal (talk • contribs) 17:26, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Bottom posting again
I count six new questions today at the bottom of WP:Teahouse/Questions, and one at the top. I think it is time to junk the experiment of making the page top-posting, and make it follow every other talk and discussion page on Wikipedia. --ColinFine (talk) 15:23, 21 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Agreed; this just causes confusion. - David Biddulph (talk) 15:28, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed, as I have done in the past whenever this subject comes up. Going to bottom-posting would also eliminate the technical issues with posting to the wrong section. Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 15:29, 21 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Agreed. It causes too many errors and too much confusion, including an unknown number of Teahouse users who top-post on other pages because they learned it here. Just add a link at the top saying something like "New questions belong at the bottom." PrimeHunter (talk) 16:00, 21 May 2013 (UTC)


 * If we go to bottom posting (which I agree is a good idea), would anyone be opposed to a modification of the TOC like what I use on my talk page (User:Technical 13/SandBox/Fancy_TOC for the sandbox I developed and tested it in if you want to play with it.)? Technical 13 (talk) 16:14, 21 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Disagree. 1) If some users are occasionally posting at the bottom, then why not just check the bottom for new questions every once in a while? You'd have to do that anyway if all new questions posted to the bottom, so it doesn't seem like it's extra work. 2) "An unknown number of Teahouse users who top-post on other pages because they learned it here..." isn't a valid argument without data to back it up. 3) Every talk page on Wikipedia will move to top posting when Flow is rolled out. - J-Mo  Talk to Me   Email Me  23:40, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * +1 to J-Mo's #2 - we've heard this concern in the past but have never seen data demonstrating that Teahouse top-posting actually teaches new editors to follow this practice on other talk pages. I'd love to see examples of where you're seeing this issue happening.  Siko (talk) 19:45, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure that it's worth caring. Whatever you do, someone will get it wrong. BTW, I understand that everything is going to be top-posting when WP:Flow (eventually—next year?) replaces our old-fashioned talk pages. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:01, 22 May 2013 (UTC)


 * To be honest, my experience using Flow on MediaWiki is that it is neither top nor bottom posting. It is sectional posting and there is no real "top" or "bottom" and only threads. Technical 13 (talk) 00:39, 22 May 2013 (UTC)


 * The top/bottom posting issue really does seem to be relative to the expectations that a user brings with them, as far as I can tell from talking with interaction designers etc around this issue. Agree that either way, someone will get it wrong sometimes! The reason we went with top-posting from the start was to match with observed new user's expectations of how the rest of the internet works (new stuff at the top).  From usability tests that WMF interaction designers have done on Wikipedia, we've observed new editors get confused by Wikipedia's practice of bottom posting.  And indeed, Flow will be top-posting, basically just like Teahouse is now.  We wanted Teahouse to feel really easy for new users, hence went with top posting to match the expectations of those most likely to be confused.  I understand that existing Wikipedian's (hosts etc) expectations are the reverse, and that is challenging and makes this conversation come up again and again in this project.  Because the priority use-case of Teahouse is still for new editors, though, I'm curious if we know whether the 6 new questions that sparked this thread were from new editors, or older ones, and if it was a one-off day, or if you see this happening more often every day.  If folks who are concerned about top-posting could quantify the concern a bit more, that might help me understand the problem better.  Finally, if we do try removing top posting, I'd like to know that the impact of the change on new guests will be measured really carefully, because past surveys of guests show that new editors find Teahouse easy to use in its current configuration.  Will those who support the change also commit to doing the research to learn if new guests still get answers as quickly, can find those answers as easily, and ultimately do reply/engage as often as they do with the current configuration?  Measuring the impact of changes on other users (rather than going with our own assumptions or personal experience) is something that I feel is really useful for ensuring we're providing the best user-experience possible, and that feels like the thing that we should all be trying hard to keep as part of Teahouse's core DNA. Siko (talk) 19:45, 22 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I think the biggest reason that people end up bottom posting on the Teahouse is because they use the "add a section" or with MediaWiki:Gadget-addsection-plus.js enabled "+" tab at the top of the page. What I'm wondering is if the target of that link could be modified via js in the MediaWiki:Gadget-teahouse/content.js script to use the same stuffs as the "ask a question" button? Technical 13 (talk) 19:58, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Aha, that would totally make sense...but I don't see the "new section" link at the top of the questions page, do you? I thought that only shows on talk pages.  Does the plus gadget add this feature when you're viewing the Questions page? Siko (talk) 23:30, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Right. There's a magic word that can be added to the page to add it, but we decided against doing that for this very reason. Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 23:48, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I know I have used the "+" before up there, (Okay, maybe I'm senile 'cause it's not there now) but either way the actual "Ask a question" button simulates the "add a section" tab anyways if JavaScript is unavailable or disabled either way by adding "&section=new" to the URL. What if... We shorten up the header on the page itself (not sure if the archival templates can be transcluded, I would assume they could "if" the were wrapped in  tags) and then change the URL in the link to "&section=0" with the only thing they can see being the condensed header and a comment section telling them to post below the line (similar to what is there, only shortened)?  Also, I went back over to MediaWiki wiki to check out how Flow actually works and it is "kind of" top posting, but not really.  It is sectional like I suspected where you pick a thread and editing a thread moves it to the top.  Stale threads eventually "fall" off the page but nothing is archived. Technical 13 (talk) 00:35, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

This is a correction, just in case anyone reads this later: Technical 13 said a while ago that "my experience using Flow on MediaWiki is..." Flow does not exist. What he meant to say is that his experience using Flow is non-existent, but that his experience using the completely unrelated LiquidThreads (which will never appear at the English Wikipedia due to serious technical limitations) is that it's neither completely top nor bottom posting. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:14, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, what I meant was my experience using the JavaScript mockup for Flow that I have used (and wasn't too fond of).  Either way, it is probably not too relevant at this point as that is "just" a mock-up of what it might be like. Technical 13 (talk) 22:22, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Red Links.
Just a question about Red Links which was raised over on Orphan Black, following an IPs reverts. On WP:REDNOT It says that personal names shouldnt be linked. What is the definition of a "Personal Name" within the context of Wikipedia? I myself have interpreted it as a name that reflects a person(s) within a BLP Article who is not notable i.e. a boyfriend/girlfriend/non notable children etc and not acting professionals usually shown in infoboxes and cast lists. Any light that could be spread either here, or here on this would be great. -- MisterShiney    ✉    19:11, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:FORUMSHOPPING again. Not finding any joy at the original article, or at the relevant policy page, now here? Both the latter without any notice at the original discussion. For someone who claims to be vastly experienced at how things work here, it's a bit troubling. Anyway, still waiting for you to say where this very odd definition of "personal name" comes from. It's hard not to think it was crafted to negate its normal meaning so you can ignore the guideline at WP:REDNOT. 202.81.243.184 (talk) 09:50, 6 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Okay, well then... I have a couple things to say here. First, to, this doesn't seem as much an attempt to FORUMSHOP as it seems to be more of an attempt to ask the definition of "Personal Name" with a little background as to why he is asking.  Next to  If this is any more than an attempt to get clarification as to the definition of the term, then I'm afraid there won't be much luck here as not many people follow this forum.  If I am correct, and it is just a request for clarification, you should probably re-ask your question on the /Question page of this forum where you will more likely get an answer.  Good luck! Technical 13 (talk) 12:58, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * MisterShiney has already asked this question at Wikipedia talk:Red link, which is the best place to discuss it. Anyone who is interested in it is invited to join that discussion rather than talking about it here.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:18, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Teahouse invitations from Afc
Dear Teahouse hosts:

Over the past several weeks the Afc script has been giving people a choice of sending Teahouse invitations to Afc submitters when we review their pages. This should have led to a lot of new Teahouse users. Has there in fact been an increase in the number of new editors at the Teahouse? Sorry if this has been asked before; I just joined this discussion today. &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 01:45, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

New host - maybe
Dear Teahouse hosts:

I decided to become a Teahouse host, but I am finding it rather frustrating so far. I have added all of the scripts according to instructions, but the only change I see is a little TB beside some signatures. Isn't there a dropdown or something? The TB popup asks for a question name, but doesn't indicate who will receive the message, so all I've managed to do so far is send one to myself. Can someone point me to the documentation? &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 11:03, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi . The script by  adds a new component to the wikilove heart.  If you go to a user page ( test on mine if you wish ) and click the wikilove heart, there will be a new button on the left side that says "badges".  These are the Teahouse WP:BADGEs and simplifies the sending of them.   is in charge of the other three scripts.  One of them puts the little "TB" next to names on the teahouse, one of them adds 3 options to the un-named drop-down arrow on user talk pages ("THInvite" "THInvite (Afc)" "THTalkback") and the third one... ummm I don't exactly remember but since I echoed Writ here I'm sure he would be happy to fill you in. :) Technical 13 (talk) 11:53, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The one adds new options to the page action menu when you're on a user or user talk page, the other adds a reminder to leave a talk page message when you're posting to the Teahouse questions page, and the third (the TB link one) adds talkback links to people's signatures, letting you leave them a talkback. That is, the script inserts a |tb| link next to each wikilink to a user's talk page, and the talkback is sent to that talkpage, so a User talk:Writ Keeper| |TB| link would send me a talkback, a User talk:Technical 13 |TB| would send a talkback to Technical 13, and User talk:Anne Delong |TB| would sent a talkback to you. Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 12:58, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. The reason that I wasn't seeing anything was because I wasn't on the appropriate type of page. Now I know when to look. And I won't send my self any more talkback messages!  &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 14:56, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

I still sometimes ask questions
Dear Teahouse hosts:

Although I have signed up to be a Teahouse host, I still sometimes ask questions myself. I am assuming that if the question is asked by me as a user rather than a host, I shouldn't leave a Teahouse talkback. Right? The software can't tell the difference and reminds me to leave one. &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 12:43, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Talkbacks work the same here as they do anywhere else. If you know the person you are responding to is monitoring the page, then there probably isn't a need to leave a talkback.  I tend to be hesitant to leave any talkbacks unless it seems after a day that the person has missed my reply or isn't watching. Technical 13 (talk) 12:48, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, but in this case the person asking the Teahouse question would be me, and there are no responses yet, so the only person I could leave the talkback to would be myself. &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 14:13, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Yep, I talk to myself sometimes, but I rarely talkback to myself... Wait, what? xD Technical 13 (talk) 15:13, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
 * LOL. Yes, you should not:-) The reminder is just the fruit of a dumb program carrying out its assigned tasks by the numbers. To put it another way (since I think you wouldn't have asked if you didn't have something like this thought in the back of your mind): there's no log or program enforcing leaving talkback or checking off that you're doing it right, even where it wouldn't make sense, with some sort of good/bad grade scheme, so there's no need to engage in that chase-your-own-tail exercise.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:52, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I suppose it wouldn't hurt much to modify the script a little to not put the |TB links on your own signature... That kind of annoys me slightly... I'll see what I can do when I have some time. Also, unrelated, but since you're here and I'm in a hurry and too lazy to post elsewhere.  I'm working on the AFC thing for you too Anne.  I'm slowly rebuilding the whole system.  I've already started modifications to the declined and draft afc submission templates and I'm working on an article creation wizard (that I call 3.0) that is more intuitive and more efficient at making sure things are sourced and reducing copyvios and such... Bear with me, it will be a little slow.  I've decided it might be more efficient to try to accomplish it with lua instead of javascript, but I know so little about lua, it's going to take some more research. Technical 13 (talk) 01:04, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
 * * Shaking head in admiration* Only someone already really proficient in programming would consider tackling a whole new language to do something in the near future. I wish I had that proficiency.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 01:28, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Why Signatures necessary?
A user on the question page has pointed that it is necessary to sign using ~, when one use "Ask a question" button, otherwise one can not post question. One can however use the normal editing procedure, which a beginner may not know. Why is it so? Should we change it?-- Vigyani talkਯੋਗਦਾਨ 07:18, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
 * It's probably to force people to get used to signing their posts. --(ʞɿɐʇ) ɐuɐʞsǝp 07:43, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
 * That is exactly why it is there, otherwise the script would automatically do it for them. Technical 13 (talk) 11:50, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Why to force someone to sign, especially newbies? Since anyhow signbot can do it later.-- Vigyani talkਯੋਗਦਾਨ 10:25, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
 * It's probably to get newbies into the habits of signing posts in general. It isn't an unreasonable measure for training.  Robert McClenon (talk) 01:35, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Relying on Sinebot is a bad idea in general, because: a) it becomes opt-in after a certain number of edits, and not everybody will remember to opt in; b) bots sometimes break and cannot, in general, be 100% relied on; and c) Sinebot makes it more difficult for others to edit by creating unnecessary edit conflicts and junk edits that interfere with the use of tools like rollback. It's much better for people to jsut sign their posts, and teaching them to do this early is not a bad idea. Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 02:57, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I've noticed in my time here that many newer editors have problems understanding that there is a structure to editing on Wikipedia, and I think that forcing them to sign is a step in the right direction in getting them used to the idea that there is that structure. Should I let the bot sign for me? lol Gtwfan52 (talk) 05:12, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * hmm.. I agree. Should we then change the text On Wikipedia, you should sign all of your posts by ending them with four tildes ( ~ ) to something, which suggest you must sign to ask the question. Since present text reads mere like a suggestion and not a requirement. My basic concern is that someone comes here to ask a question, should not go empty handed due to some technicality which they may not understand. "Ask my question" button doesn't become active until we put ~, one may think that there is some other problem to it.-- Vigyani talkਯੋਗਦਾਨ 04:21, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
 * That text is also missing the very necessary and ubiquitous qualification that one should never sign in articles ("posts" rather than "edits" might imply just enough to a few very careful reader that they wouldn't get the wrong idea but not to most). So, first of all, I would suggest to address my concern (addition in green), "On Wikipedia, you should sign all of your non-article posts by ending them with four tildes ( ~ ). And since I agree with your concern, I would suggest: "On Wikipedia, you should sign all of your non-article posts by ending them with four tildes ( ~ ) (Note: this question submission form will not work without them.) --Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 01:47, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Would "On Wikipedia, you should sign all of your talk page posts..." work? &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 02:48, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
 * That would work to eliminate the article concern, would leave unaddressed Vigyani's concern, but the problem with that language is that the Teahouse question forum and all of the numerous other project pages where one should sign are not "talk pages"--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 03:59, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Fuhghettaboutit's suggestion looks good. -- Vigyani talkਯੋਗਦਾਨ 15:56, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Editing tools
When we click the ask to question button at Teahouse/Questions, there are no editing tools. Can somebody add them? Zince 34'  09:48, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
 * What tools did you have in mind? I suspect adding in all the tools would be challenging in terms of keeping that new window interface clean.  Can anyone speak to how difficult it might be to add in some basic tools to the interface?  I, Jethrobot  drop me a line (note: not a bot!) 15:37, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Excuse me Interrupting
Newbie editor here. Really pleased and touched to have a friendly welcome to the 'Teahouse'. Haven't yet been able to find it though. Tried making a profile: I have worked with computers for 20 years and I found it absurdly difficult. Plus I have lost it now. I would really value the help and support of others, Would it be too much to ask for a link? Timbow001 (talk) 21:27, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi Timbow. Here's a link to our main page.  I am a little puzzled how you got here without getting to the main page first, though.  Are you looking for something specific within The Teahouse or just the main page?   I, Jethrobot  drop me a line (note: not a bot!) 21:35, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you Jethrobot. I had been through there. Where are all the other people?Timbow001 (talk) 21:51, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what you expect from the Teahouse. It's not a chat room if that's what you are looking for. It's mainly a place for new editors to ask questions. The link "Do you have a question about editing?" at Teahouse leads to Teahouse/Questions where you can see posts from many people. Teahouse/Guests and Teahouse/Hosts shows some of the people who ask and answer questions. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:31, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Timbow001 (talk) 09:28, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Hello, if you do happen to be looking for more of a chatroom setting, the best we can offer is where some of the teahouse hosts (such as myself often as T13|something) hang out.  Feel free to pop in and say hi.  Happy editing! Technical 13 (talk) 02:10, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you all. I guess I had misunderstood what it was. beginning to find my way around now.

VisualEditor
Just a reminder that WP:VisualEditor is scheduled to become the default for main article space and user space in about eight hours. Because it won't work on talk pages, then it won't affect WP:Articles for creation.

You can always get to the old system by clicking [Edit source]. WhatamIdoing (talk) 11:53, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Grey text
The posts at Teahouse/Questions currently look
 * grey like this

instead of
 * black like this

It appears to originate from one of the many  in TH question page. Is it deliberate? I find it annoying to read grey text. It can be OK in the design of a header with large text, but it shouldn't spill into the normal text. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:34, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * , I'm not sure what you have going on, but the text on WP:THQ for the content section does indeed look black to me. Perhaps you have a buggy css or userscript or browser isn't liking one of the elements on the page throwing the whole thing off?  Let's start with your browser, as that is the thing that is most likely to effect others. I am using FF21 and it looks black. Technical 13 (talk) 18:17, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * It's grey for me in both Firefox 22.0 and IE9, but when it's all grey it isn't as noticeable as my above example with black nearby. Try comparing Teahouse/Questions to the following copy in a separate window so they can be seen at the same time:
 * Hi there, I'm trying to figure out how to increase the size of an image imported from Wikimedia for use in a Wikipedia article. It is the logo/wordmark in the sidebar of the article. The original on Wikimedia is too large, but when imported into Wikipedia, it is too small.
 * PrimeHunter (talk) 18:48, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * It is not pure black and it is on purpose :). For some, the contrast of pure black and white is more difficult to read than slightly less contrasting versions. It is actually darker than it was in the original Teahouse colors. heather walls (talk) 18:56, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * There you have it from . I dug in a little as well.. Black: e | Teahouse color: e | TH question page gray color: e  So it is somewhere in the middle... e e e Technical 13 (talk) 19:25, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Could someone help out this new editor?
A prod was contested by the creator of Bike Race (video game) and I started an AfD discussion for it. However, it was placed for a procedural purpose and the prodder voted delete in the AfD. I was wondering if someone could help the editor on the talk page and see if they can give better advice than I can, maybe even finding coverage in reliable sources? The editor is very frustrated and Wikipedia needs any new editor who genuinely wants to improve Wikipedia to continue editing. SL93 (talk) 02:46, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Correction - new to article creating. SL93 (talk) 02:52, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Sure, I'll check in today and tomorrow and see if I make some progress. I, Jethrobot  drop me a line (note: not a bot!) 05:38, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Editor requiring assistance
Hello Teahouse crew! I have been corresponding with an editor via OTRS who is experiencing frustration with editing. They would like to correspond with a Teahouse volunteer, however the "ask a question" link does not seem to be working for them. Could someone please engage Filmian directly via their user talk page? Many thanks, --Jezebel's Ponyo bons mots 18:36, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Sure, I'll go see if I can help the editor. Could you also post the OTRS ticket for reference?  (I am an OTRS volunteer).  I, Jethrobot  drop me a line (note: not a bot!) 18:47, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you! The corresponding OTRS ticket is .--Jezebel's Ponyo bons mots 18:58, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

question going unanswered
There has been a question in the teahouse that no one has replied to and its been there a while. The question is "Did I do something wrong" by Flying Butress. I would answer it but I'm a fairly new editor and I'm not sure what the answer is, I have some ideas (I'm actually curios to see what the answer someone who knows more would say) but I'm afraid I might do more harm then good and say something wrong. Many of Flying's changes have a red "vandalism" tag next to them and I'm not sure why. Is there any procedure when no one answers a question to escalate it? Mdebellis (talk) 17:49, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi Mdebellis, thanks for paying attention! Sarah and I (and other hosts) just move questions back to the top when they haven't been answered. It's a good reminder to leave a note on a question if you've addressed something off of the question page. heather walls (talk) 19:01, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * More: I am pretty sure that red vandalism thing is not a tag, it's just a tool and does not indicate that Flying did anything wrong (I can't find where this is explained anywhere, if anyone else can that would be cool). A discussion of what happened is on Bwilkins talk page and I don't have enough time to understand it much less respond to it. :) heather walls (talk) 19:25, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks to all. I came to realize the same thing about the vandalism text. I think what is going on is there is some bot that tries to flag comments that based on some pattern have a high probability to be vandalism and it leaves those there as a result. But I'm also not sure. Looking forward to finding out the answer :) Mdebellis (talk) 19:32, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I think Twinkle gives you those tags. There's three of them: current, rollback, and vandalism. Hope this helps. You can see them if you go to: User contributions. I've also see these tags: rollback (AGF), rollback, and rollback VANDAL on revision pages Checkingfax (talk) 23:01, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I have to say that the first time I saw an article history with the red "Vandalism" beside many of the edit summaries I thought that the page had been vandalized. Is there a reason it's "shouting" when the other choices are not?  &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 00:54, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with Anne the UI is confusing as it is. For one thing it looks like a link so I assumed at first it meant "this was vandalism" and I clicked on it to get more information and (without asking me to confirm) it reverted the comment and marked it as vandalism (which kind of freaked me out but I undid it right away). I also still don't understand why some users have the "vandalism" tag next to some changes and some don't. My guess is that there is some bot that looks for patterns and flags changes that might be vandalism but for a new user that could be confusing (and I think what was going on for this user). I think a bit more info on this would be good to know for future use and is there a way we can pass feedback on the UI back to developers? Mad Scientist (talk) 12:48, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Answer Templates? and Not sure if I'm officially a host
It occurs to me that there are a few questions that get asked a lot and that have more or less boilerplate answers. The one that springs to mind is the question of how to upload an image and copyright. Lots of people get confused because we come to Wikipedia from personal blogs and Facebook where people can upload files much easier. I was wondering has anyone thought about developing a template for a few answers like this? As I type I'm guessing that for the effort it would save it might not be worth it and also its just nice to have a personal touch on each answer, but I'm still kind of curious.

A second unrelated question: when I joined as a host I was interrupted in the middle of doing it. Actually, come to think of it I'm not sure if I'm an official host or not, I cancelled out of the host setup but I thought that I had been made a host anyway but I don't have a profile. Any suggestions, perhaps I should just sign up as a host again and make sure I'm not interupted? Mad Scientist (talk) 12:42, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * According to this you are a host. Checkingfax (talk) 17:49, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * We had this thing called Moodbar Feedback way back when, and developed a set of personalized, visual responses for new users.  Here is one on images:


 * ...which you can respond with using this markup: .  There are some other useful template responses on other topics here.   I, Jethrobot  drop me a line (note: not a bot!) 19:18, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * still figuring all this out but many thanks for all the good info! MadScientistX11 (talk) 18:30, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

a digital divide between new and old editors?
I'm not sure if this the appropriate forum to post this, its not a question so much as an observation. I'm becoming concerned that there is going to be a gap between new editors and old editors on which way to edit (Visual Editor vs. Text Editor). My guess is that new editors will use the Visual Editor. First because its the default and second because its easier to start using right away. But my feeling also is that old editors (and for the sake of this discussion that even includes me even though I've only been editing seriously for a few months) will stick to the original editor. I've tried the Visual Editor a few times and so far I really prefer the old way of doing things. Is there a danger that our answers are going to be in terms of the source editor while more and more new users will be expecting answers in terms of the Visual Editor? MadScientistX11 (talk) 10:44, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree that this is likely to be a problem. For one thing, when someone asks a question, how will we know which editor they are using?  Also, right now VE is not activated in Wikipedia talk:Articles for Creation space, so the new users are being introduced to the old editor, and then as soon as their articles are approved and hit mainspace, the "edit" button suddenly has a new meaning.  &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 14:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Another thing I think is really confusing is the issue of "Edit" vs. "Edit Source". Now to me as a programmer I knew what that meant immediately but I don't think its obvious to everyone and I think its really confusing that "Edit" invokes the Visual Editor on articles but "Edit" in the Teahouse or talk pages is the equivalent of "Edit Source" on an article. BTW, I realize there are pages on the visual editor project itself and I'm going to find those and give feedback but I thought there might be enough specifics about how it impacts help to merit discussion here. As you can tell I'm very verbose in my comments. Which can be good for help, as much as possible I like to try and give new users step by step instructions, but its hard for me to do that when everything I know is based on the old editor and they are probably using the Visual Editor. One other minor question I had: a Techie told me that "the tech people say the Visual Editor is not WYSIWYG." Does anyone know why that might be true? It seems WYSIWYG to me and I like using that term (especially with a link to the WYSIWYG article) because for people who know the term it makes a very clear basic distinction between the new and the old and for people who don't but want to find out more it gives them a place to look. I suspect that one reason the techies may be resisting calling it WYSIWYG is that a lot of techies I know consider that a dirty word, based on bad WYSIWYG environments like Microsoft Front Page that introduce all kinds of crap into HTML, HTML jocks sometimes sneer at WYSIWYG but I like it, if it works well. Sorry for all the rambling. MadScientistX11 (talk) 19:05, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The short answer is to look at their contributions, if their edits are marked with (Tag: VisualEditor) then they are using V/E. If not they aren't. The long answer is that if the devs manage to fix enough bugs that the visual editor becomes a net positive then a lot of the old guard will start using it, especially those who train or otherwise help newbies. However the problems may well be insurmountable, especially the CPU ones. Basically the visual editor has been developed on new machines to take advantage of modern computers, if you have an old machine then if it works at all it will be unacceptably slow. As the implications of this for global outreach and especially institutional discrimination against the poorer parts of the world sink in so the probability rises that v/e will be withdrawn - perhaps to come back in a few years when almost all old PCs will have been scrapped.  Ϣere  Spiel  Chequers  19:33, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm sure everyone has noted the RFC up above. I just want to encourage teahouse hosts to express opinions especially based on thoughts/experience about how this impacts mentoring new users. I voted (are these actually tallied or is it just comments, not sure) for the Opt-In option, i.e. the default for new users (in my opinion for all users) should be that you don't get the visual editor but have to check an option to enable it. I've done a fair amount of software development and I've never heard of a beta test for a big user community like this where the default was to use the beta test, rather than to choose to try it. MadScientistX11 (talk) 18:29, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Teahouse talkback message
When I leave a Teahouse talkback message, I am presented with a checkbox, something about additional dialogues. Under what circumstances should I be checking this box, and why? &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 14:28, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't have an answer to your question Anne, but I have encountered similar things on other javascripted actions (such as the Checklinks tool). I just click thru it. Gtwfan52 (talk) 20:37, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Contributions
Very, very often it's useful or even necessary to check a user's contributions before answering their question. As a contributions link isn't part of default signatures, could we add this alongside the "TB" that appears with the Teahouse scripts? Cheers --LukeSurlt c 11:45, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Hello ! That is a great idea... Please see Teahouse/Wishing_well and possible add it to that section (and perhaps ping  in the process to see about feasibility of the idea) :D Technical 13 (talk) 13:32, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Sure, that's easy. I'll do it tonight. Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 03:50, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
 * K, done. Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 04:12, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Teahouse archives
What is the current status of this? And since the New Contributors Help Page was merged into this, can we provide a link to the archives for that?— Vchimpanzee  ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 21:52, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * About a month ago I put out a new archive box that auto-updates to show the ten most recent archives and the search button. Attempting to reduce its size at this point would upset the "flow" of the page whereas the way it sits, it lines up perfectly above the TOC. I have no opinion on the NCHP archives, I suppose the best thing to do reduce the numbered archives to five in our current box and on the other half of the box offer a single link to the NCHP archives where people can navigate from there, if it is even needed. Technical 13 (talk) 23:06, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I suppose it's unlikely people would need that other archive to find their answer, but I'm about to finish the Teahouse archives and would probably find the NCHP archives interesting as well. The frustrating thing is I can't answer questions that didn't get answered. That's why I go to the Help Desk and Teahouse now.— Vchimpanzee  ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 19:32, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I have another question about archiving. What order are the questions in? One would think they'd be in the order of the time they were asked, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Of course, the page itself is in reverse order by the time the question was asked.— Vchimpanzee  ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 20:27, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi Vchimpanzee, I'm pretty sure questions get archived when it's been the right amount of time (say three days) since there has been any action in that section, (not since it was started). They are archived in that order. heather walls (talk) 22:03, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
 * This makes it very difficult to know what I have and haven't seen. I got so busy I ended up a week behind. It's hard to figure out where to go in the archives.— Vchimpanzee  ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 17:16, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Render issue
Visiting the TH the recent question showed:  Please read User_talk:NeilN#A_Good_Editor_edits_and_publishes_not_put_tags.21_Thanks. and the subsequent sections. At this point, I'm just shaking my head. Given that the hosts here are used to dealing with new editors, any advice for me for trying to get my point across? I think the editor will be in for a rude shock if he expects Wikipedia editors to act the way he suggests. P.S. "Showering with tags" was talkback templates. Something I always do to let editors know they have a response. --NeilN talk to me 19:44, 25 August 2013 (UTC) which isn't really rendering properly. How come? Ad Huikeshoven (talk) 13:05, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

If you need help with VisualEditor
I've been watching the Teahouse for a couple of weeks to make sure that any problems with VisualEditor got sent over to the devs. I haven't seen very many. (I have been pretty impressed by the regulars here, though: you all are awesome.)  So I wanted to say that I'm going to take this page off my daily review list, but if there's any problem involving VisualEditor, then please let me know. You can ping me or find me at my talk page or at the feedback page for at least the next few weeks, or even at my volunteer account if you prefer.

Thanks again for the good work you do here. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:47, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for keeping an eye out, and we'll let you know if anything comes up! I, JethroBT  drop me a line 18:45, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Feedback (or maybe just an opinion) about the Teahouse
Here. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:50, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Responded.  or  may be able to address the issue.  I agree it can be somewhat confusing, for users who do not yet know how to sign, whether the bottom note on the  "Ask a Question" window means to use ~ or (~) as their signature.  Might be better just to go with the former, or just say "without the parentheses."  I, JethroBT  drop me a line 22:56, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for sharing. This is the first time this has surfaced as a problem - or someone has shared it as being a problem - in both our evaluation (as found on meta) of the project when it was still being supported by WMF, and since I've been involved in the program after. It's something to take into consideration, but, the goal of tilde to ask a question is to teach new editors that it's important to sign your posts. Something many new editors fail to do. SarahStierch (talk) 23:29, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Teahouse talkback script
On at least 4 occasions now, when I tried to use the Teahouse talkback script it didn't put anything on the editor's talk page, but instead opened a new page at Ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions with the content of the intended talkback message. Any ideas what's going on and how to cure it? - David Biddulph (talk) 19:00, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
 * So how come no-one else is having this problem? Check your installation of the script - suggest you may find a missing "h". &mdash; RHaworth (talk · contribs) 19:19, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
 * You'll need to remind me where I might have a missing "h". I can't see anything obvious at User:David Biddulph/common.js; where else should I be looking? - David Biddulph (talk) 20:36, 30 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Might be related to WP:VPT or any of the other "https://" bugs that have occurred due to a change in the MediaWiki code. Technical 13 (talk) 00:47, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Possibly, but the first couple of instances were before 28 August. - David Biddulph (talk) 01:17, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Wikimedia Foundation
If people have questions that relate to the WMF, WP:WMF could be a great place to direct newcomers. It's new, feel free to edit it as well. Biosthmors (talk) 19:45, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Please i need your help
Please tell me how to protect Wikipedia page. please guide me — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lifeisgood01 (talk • contribs) 09:57, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Hello Lifeisgood01. Welcome to the Tea House. Which page do you think needs protecting and why? Pages are normally only protected in extreme cases of persistent vandalism or edit warring because we want editing to be as open as reasonably possible.--Charles (talk) 10:33, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Hello
Hello Cullen i saw you are online - I would need some help very quickly. do you got 5 min for me? thank youAdniim- (talk) 06:39, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Individual Engagement Grant proposal around mentorship
Hi there. Myself and Jackson Peebles have written up an IEG proposal, with the idea being to approach adoption/mentorship in a more light-weight way to the way it is often done now. You can view our proposal at meta:Grants:IEG/Reimagining Mentorship on Wikipedia, your feedback and ideas would be appreciated. Regards, Steven Zhang (talk) 17:24, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Talk: Cary Lee Peterson [New Article Creation] - Why did I receive this response?
I received this message regarding the following article:

"Hello, Rvplpr, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Unfortunately, one or more of the pages you created may not conform to some of Wikipedia's guidelines, and may not be retained."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Rvplpr/sandbox#Cary_Lee_Peterson

All references were displayed for each paragraph on this URL link below. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Rvplpr/sandbox

All of the details in the article were from 3rd party and credible source. Can someone please tell me what is preventing this from being published.

Thanks in advance for your help getting this article into Wikipedia! (Rvplpr (talk) 13:43, 2 October 2013 (UTC))
 * Please do not engage in forum shopping in asking the same question in two or more places. You also went to WP:ANI with the same question.  Robert McClenon (talk) 22:09, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * You may indeed have taken the information from reliable sources, but you didn't include any references to the reliable sources. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:11, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Petronilla of Aragon
Hello everyone. I need help. User Srnec started an edit war without good reason. I put a picture of Queen Petronilla of Aragon in her article and he removed the picture because he says that "is useless to put portraits painted after the death of the person". I don't understand his position (there are numerous articles that have portraits painted after the died of the people portrayed) and I think that the compromise is very difficult.--EeuHP (talk) 13:51, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Hello. I have made an edit and discussed this on the talk page of the article, I will leave the discussion of the article content there. As regards the warring, problems occur where one or two people hold a conversation through edit summaries. For an article such as this, the consequences of the article being in a state one considers non-optimal for a day or two are minimal. Rather than re-reverting, it is better to discuss the edits on the article's talk page and try and form a compromise. This is known as the BRD cycle and, in its extreme form, the one-revert rule. If the dispute can't be resolved simply there are several tiers of dispute resolution. See Dispute_resolution. In this case I have invoked the simplest of these options and have acted as a third opinion.
 * Please note that when two editors have a dispute, it does not necessarily mean that either person is being disruptive. It is quite possible, in all good faith, for two editors to disagree on article content. Being a good Wikipedian isn't about being right 100% of the time (or being able to always convince others of your opinions) but instead engaging with your co-editors in a constructive way. Many thanks, --LukeSurlt c

Neutral 3rd party needed for new user
Hi. Apologies in advance if this is outside of your scope here, but it seemed closer to what I'm after than WP:RETENTION. I filed an AN/I report (here) a few days ago about an incident involving an editor from Encyclopedia Dramatica who has come to Wikipedia apparently to add humorous information to some of our articles. Unfortunately the humor at Encyclopedia Dramatica is filled with racism and homophobia so I've been reverting this material and I think he now considers me an "enemy." This sounds like vandalism, I know, but from reviewing his brief edit history (he's made around 50 edits in total) I think he is actually trying to help but he just doesn't understand the rules here. I've tried to explain them to him but I'm sure I don't have the gentlest touch and by now he is clearly not interested in anything I have to say. The folks at AN/I seem to think he's a troll, but I think the evidence suggests that he's just misguided. If any of you get a free moment, could you please try talking to him to see if he's more inclined to respond to a neutral third party? All the details can be found in the AN/I thread linked above. -Thibbs (talk) 18:09, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Help test out The Wikipedia Adventure, a new and fun way to learn how to edit Wikipedia
Hi folks, I've been working for the past 7 months on an interactive guided tour for new editors called The Wikipedia Adventure, as part of a WMF Individual Engagement Grant. The game is an experiment in teaching our aspiring future editors in an educational but playful way.


 * This week I need some alpha-testers to kick the tires. I'm interested in your general impressions and suggestions, as well as gnarly, unexpected browser issues, layout problems, workflow bugs, and other sundry errors that would prevent you from playing through and having a positive experience.


 * If you're able to spend 1-3 hours doing some quality assurance work this week, you would have: a) my sincere gratitude b), a sparkly TWA barnstar, c) special thanks in the game credits, and d) a chance to leave your mark on Wikipedia's outreach puzzle and new editor engagement efforts


 * Please note that the game automatically sends edits to your own userspace and it lets you know when that will happen. If you want, you can register a new testing account just for the game, but it won't work properly unless you're logged-in by step 8 of mission 1 when it lets you register on the fly.

If you're interested, please add your name below and have at it. You can post feedback to WP:TWA/Feedback. Thanks and cheers! Ocaasit &#124; c 20:51, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Try out The Wikipedia Adventure ''I'm interested and on the bug-hunt. Will report back this week''
 * 1)  I, JethroBT  drop me a line
 * 2)  Ross Hill  ( talk ) 21:18, 16 Oct 2013 (UTC) 21:18, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll be editing under user:Ross Hill 2. Ross Hill  ( talk ) 21:30, 16 Oct 2013 (UTC) 21:30, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
 * 1)  ///Euro Car  GT  21:33, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:59, 16 October 2013 (UTC) Just finished. I've taken copious notes of suggested changes, bugs, etc.; will post soon
 * 3) Flat Out
 * 4) I'm interested. I'll give it a burl. Tambelon (talk) 00:28, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Checkingfax (talk) 01:11, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * 6) Matty.007 (possibly editing under ). I will try and return feedback this week...
 * 7) Estaling I'm super excited because I  a new contributor and in the process of learning.  I'll post some comments this weekend (by 10/21/13). Estaling (talk) 04:25, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
 * 8) I always totally must sign up to anything that has people "super excited". --Demiurge1000 (talk) 04:27, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Could host bot be programmed not to post invites on pages of blocked users?
The invitation to come post at the Tea House seems to be inappropriately rubbing salt into the wounds of an editor when they have been blocked and cannot edit there. 

Could the bot be programmed not to post invites to blocked users? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  21:01, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * On the one hand, having the invitation might be helpful for them should they ever be unblocked, but I agree with Red Pen. It's a false invite and inappropriate when given this way.   should be able to detect blocked users and withhold sending an invite to them.  I, JethroBT  drop me a line 19:36, 18 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Red Pen of Doom: HostBot runs every potential invitee's username against the block log table before sending out invites.


 * But there was an error in the script: I was replacing underscores in the log_title field with " " for some reason, which meant that usernames with spaces weren't being seen. I've fixed the code now. Thanks for the heads-up! - J-Mo  Talk to Me   Email Me  18:53, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Archiving bot broken?
We're up to 94 threads; some appear to have been last edited on October 10.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 12:45, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Generation Wikipedia: Wikimeda Youth Conference Proposal
Hi folks! For the next round of Individual Engagement Grants from the WMF, Keilana and myself have proposed Generation Wikipedia, a pilot, week-long summer conference for young Wikipedians and Wikimedians from around the globe, to develop skills, leadership, and community in a safe environment. Please come and check it out: Generaton Wikipedia Cheers, Ocaasit &#124; c 02:44, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Archive size
Hi, changed the archive size to double the current size; from 70K to 140K. I was just wondering if that would mess anything up (better safe than sorry). Thanks, Mat  ty. 007 11:14, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Just thinking ahead, I really don't understand what damage it could cause. It's just a static perimeter.TechnicalEngineerA3 (talk) 11:15, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I wasn't sure if it changed the amount of stuff that went in the archives, and thought that it may be a good idea to check with technical people. Thanks, Mat  ty  .  007  11:21, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
 * you may want to see this conversation. Thanks, Mat  ty  .  007  11:27, 1 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I've already reverted the change and was working on a response here when I ed with you. xD Hello  and welcome to the Teahouse.  I understand that you are fairly new around here and wanting to help out with technical issues.  There are a lot of static things that should not be altered around the teahouse as it may affects the way that multiple bots operate and there are a lot of things that are the way they are due to research of what works best for the majority of people to be able to easily find people.  Before making future changes (until you have a better grasp of which things are monitored by  specifically and which things are the way they are as a result of research), I suggest proposing your changes here (and it is a good idea to ping , , , , and myself).  Thanks for your interest in helping at the Teahouse! Technical 13 (talk) 11:38, 1 November 2013 (UTC)


 * A hearty welcome from me as well, TechnicalEngineer. I don't think changing the archive size will have any negative impacts on how my bot (HostBot) runs, since MiszaBot and HostBot don't cross paths. I also don't see any reason not to increase the archive size. But in general I echo Technical13 that some changes could have unforeseen consequences, so always best to talk about it first. We've both certainly broken enough around here to earn the right to advocate for better communication around these issues :) - J-Mo  Talk to Me   Email Me  17:50, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
 * At the moment MiszaBot is AWOL and LegoBot has temporarily at least taken over archival. The problem with large archive sizes is that the server can't handle them well and it become exceptionally problematic when there are lots of transclusions on the page.  I've seen archives come up with "MediaWiki Error" messages before as small as 100K, and in that case, although the page size itself was relatively small, it was transcluding a lot of other large pages which drove the page size well over the 180K pages start to fail without transclusions line.  So, I'm hesitant to support a size greater than 100K on a help page such as the Teahouse where people that may have hardly ever used a computer before nevermind the Internet or Wikipedia are intended to go for general editing help.  I've discussed the existence of archives with Heather before, and they are only intended to be used as "I asked a question and had to go away for a week so I never saw my answer" type issues and not so much for browsing to get answers.  Part of the purpose is to get people to ask questions (therefor making as simple of an edit as possible to easy possible worries about editing and "breaking something") and repeat questions are good.  Just my thoughts on it. :) Technical 13 (talk) 18:26, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Top and bottom posting
Three questions posted at the bottom today. When are we going to give up this sui generis top posting? --ColinFine (talk) 09:35, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
 * good luck with that. The issue has been brought up more times than I can count, and has been summarily dismissed by those who are in charge.  Maybe this time they will listen, but I doubt it.  -- Jayron  32  11:07, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I thought that "those who are in charge" are the community of Wikipedia editors? Bottom posting is the agreed convention elsewhere in Wikipedia discussion, and it causes confusion for this odd page to do things the opposite way to the rest of Wikipedia. - David Biddulph (talk) 04:41, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Not going to go into detail on the reasons I think this top posting scheme is a bad idea as I've said it before but re-registering my support for a reversal, futile as it may be.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 13:17, 21 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Summarily dismissed? Really? That's unfair, Jayron. I've made an effort to explain my rationale for that decision every time the topic has been raised here. I've also never enforced it (not that I have the authority or the userrights to do that anyway). As to sui generis, well, Flow will top-post in a similar fashion to the TH gadget. So the gadget's days of being a special snowflake may be numbered. Also, I implemented it in the new Evaluation portal Q&A board, so it actually already has a little friend.


 * Then again, I don't answer questions at the Teahouse these days. If you want to change it, maybe start a new thread in the lounge to assess whether there's consensus among those who are currently active. If the consensus is for change, someone like Writ Keeper can update the script. I believe he feels the same way y'all do.


 * The Teahouse has always done certain things the opposite way of the rest of Wikipedia. That was kinda the point.


 * There's a Flow office hour on IRC tomorrow at 18:00 UTC, btw, for anyone interested. Cheers, - J-Mo  Talk to Me   Email Me  22:12, 23 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm not going to get involved with this debate yet again, nor with whether or not the many previous discussions were summarily dismissed by the WMF side of things, but I'll be happy to implement any necessary changes to the script; just let me know. I exist only to serve. Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 22:25, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Its always best to confuse our new editors as much as possible this is why this page is the revers of all others. -- LOL somethings simply dont make sense around here --  Moxy (talk) 23:31, 23 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi there! Everyone in this thread sounds really frustrated, and that makes me unhappy because Teahouse is supposed to be a calming break from the frustrations that the rest of Wikipedia can sometimes present.  I'm sorry that the bottom-vs-top posting question still feels like a tension point all around :(  Just to add some additional perspective, this design guidelines page summarizes some of the thoughts that a few of us put into Teahouse setup in the first place, including a rationale for top-posting (to be clear: I helped setup the guidelines documentation this summer as a volunteer, and like J-Mo I drop in here these days because I still think it and you are all awesome, not because I have or want WMF control over the space).  What we weren't thinking is "let's make life hard for people in the Teahouse." :)  It sounds like it may actually feel like life is hard, though, and that might be why this discussion keeps coming up and people sound frustrated.  So, my personal feeling is that if life is too hard in the current setup, Teahouse does certainly belong to everyone and if there is consensus it should lead to change.  I would myself love to be reminded that changers have the needs of new editors first in their minds as they are doing things, and because I'm experimentation obsessed I will admit that I am always worried if no one making changes has a plan to monitor some metrics that would determine what impact a change has on guests and hosts alike after it has been made.  This is what I say every time this discussion comes up though, so I hope it doesn't sound summarily dismissive.  It isn't intended to be, at all.  Cheers, Siko (talk) 06:48, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

+1 for experiments. I'm already gathering question and answer data, so if you decide to switch the posting order and a month or two down the line someone wants to run a comparative analysis, I'd be happy to help out. - J-Mo Talk to Me   Email Me  18:05, 24 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I'd actually rather see the rest of WP follow the TeaHouse format, because posting new stuff at the top makes much more sense and is the well-known norm in forums and social media. But since that's never gonna happen, I agree it would be best if the TeaHouse stepped in line to avoid confusion.  Yinta n  12:57, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * You may want to see my post at the bottom of this page regarding a bottom posting issue I had. Thanks, Mat  ty  .  007  13:20, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Another 'Ask a Question' issue
While I'm here, I may as well say my issue: when I click the 'Ask a Question' button, my question goes to the bottom, but other editors have said that the button works fine for them. Is this a known bug with some browsers? Thanks, Mat  ty. 007 18:55, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Which browser/skin are you using? Do you have any other gadgets loaded?  Are you smiling when you click the button?  Can you copy your error console to a message on my talk page that I can dig though?  Are you sure that your JavaScript is loading and you are not in need of a WP:BYPASS?  :) Technical 13 (talk) 19:29, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Lol. I'm guessing you see a normal edit window when you hit the button, rather than a pop-up box? That sounds like you might not have Javascript enabled. Or else it's some fun, new browser compatibility issue. - J-Mo  Talk to Me   Email Me  19:41, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Using Firefox, with the Teahouse TB script, I don't get an error message, it simply asks the question at the bottom, I am generally looking slightly confused when I press the button, Javascript is enabled, I bypassed and tested, and this test after I bypassed the cache didn't work. I get the normal edit window/new section editing window, but no pop-up. Thanks, Mat  ty  .  007  20:14, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
 * To top off the answers, I am using Firefox version 17.0.1. Thanks, Mat  ty  .  007  20:15, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
 * And here's another FireFox user with the same problem as User:Matty.007. I'm using the portable Firefox, version 15, and I don't see a pop-up box either.  Yinta n  13:52, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I remember previously (months ago) seeing this box; but now it just performs the same as a 'New section' button in all respects, including placing new posts at the bottom. Thanks, Mat  ty  .  007  13:54, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I outdented your post; as otherwise it confuses me. Sorry if it was like that for a reason, and feel free to tell me/change it if it was. Thanks, Mat  ty  .  007  13:55, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * No problem.  Yinta n  14:26, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't currently have access to those old versions of FireFox. Would it be out of the question for you to bother update to at least version 21/22 (before they started removing all kinds of CSS2 support)? Technical 13 (talk) 15:45, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Of course, it may be that these updates aren't available for someone's particular hardware/OS configuration. I just checked on Firefox 20 (Mac) and the box appears as expected. - J-Mo  Talk to Me   Email Me  02:30, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
 * The other possibility is that they are using the ESR version of which the most up-to-date is 17 IIRC.  If that is the case, I need to know that information and I can add that to my laptop along side FF24 I think. Technical 13 (talk) 15:13, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Abuse
Someone has abused me on Wikipedia. Please tell him/her to stop. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Wasdwasdwasd123#November_2013 Sorry for any Inconvenience that I have caused. Wasdwasdwasd123 (talk) 06:05, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
 * No one is fooled, we can see that you're the one who changed the notice to its current wording. Howicus (Did I mess up?) 06:08, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Reflist not working
I added reflist template here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_creation/42_Squadron_SAAF but it won't show up, please help. Nathan121212 (talk) 14:35, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Hello Nathan121212! It seems that a couple of editors have fixed this problem for you. This page is for organizing the Teahouse; if you have more questions please ask them at Teahouse/Questions, because that's the page that the Teahouse hosts check most often. Happy editing! &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 14:55, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Funny Name :)
I am intrigued by that 'Teahouse' thingy, Wikimedia sure has a good sense of humor! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.51.28.219 (talk) 00:03, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Some sad news
User:Jackson Peebles is no longer with us, he passed away in late October. Jackson was a Western Michigan University Honors student studying behavioral science and biology. He worked as an ice hockey referreee and volunteered with the Red Cross. His Wikipedia efforts focused on counter-vandalism and adoption, "greeting new users, encouraging civility, and [obsessively] reviewing recent changes".

Jackson was a Teahouse host, an instructor in the Education Program, and the lead on a Video Tutorials Project through the WMF. User:Go Phightins! originaly adopted Jackson but he went on to run his own adoption school and facilitated a Western Michigan University course himself. Among his userboxes he said, "This user is not a Wikipedia administrator but would like to be one someday."

Jackson was born in 1992 in Kalamazoo, Michigan. He graduated Mattawan High School and was Senior Class President there. At Western Michigan University, he was a 2011 Medallion Scholar. He worked at the Waldo Library at the reference desk and volunteered for the National Alliance for Mental Illness. He was one of three students in the nation invited to represent the US at the International Red Cross and Red Crescent’s Global Youth Conference in Vienna in 2012.

Jackson had recently proposed a WMF Individual Engagment Grant called Reimagining Wikipedia Mentorship. "I think this project is incredibly important and should be pursued," User:EpochFail wrote in an endorsement. The grant scored highly, solid 4 out of 5 and looked likely to be funded. "A very interesting concept...may become a 'keystone piece' in the new editor onboarding process." wrote one IEG committee member. Another wrote, "Taking a 'Teahouse approach' in building sustained motivation and preventing editor dropouts is a wonderful opportunity to develop a true mentor-mentee support system that would increase the activity of new contributors." Finally, "Proposers are highly qualified and driven mentors with a useful background in teaching new editors and understanding the learning process."

On Wikipedia, Jackson earned barnstars in Mentorship, Random Acts of Kindness and Resilience. Friends and teachers glowingly recalled his sense of humor and his hard work ethic.

His last edit to our site was on October 21 2013, the day he died. Jackson welcomed an i.p. editor to Wikipedia: "Thank you for your contributions, such as the one you made to Nikah mut‘ah. I hope you like the place and decide to stay."


 * Please leave remembrances and condolences on Jackson's talk page. We'll try and contact the family and share your thoughts with them.  Donations to the Kalamazoo NAMI chapter would have made Jackson very happy and are the family's wish. Ocaasit &#124; c 14:26, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Uploading
I'm not really sure how to upload images, I wanna upload Playhouse Disney's logo from before 2003, but I am having trouble on how to. Toon Disney HD (talk) 10:36, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

How do we handle a problem like JohnTosco? (sung to the tune of how do we solve a problem like Maria from sound of music)
I hope people don't mind this is more of a ramble, although I am interested if people have thoughts. There is a guy in the Teahouse who just won't let go. When I first started hanging out in the Teahouse I would reply to those kinds of comments politely, more or less the way I did to JohnTosco in my one reply to him that is currently there. The rational side of my brain says that if 3 people politely tell you you are wrong even someone as brilliant and never wrong as I am may just be wrong and I need to rethink my position. Sadly, that seldom seems to work in these cases and often it just makes them madder. I've been sitting on my hands -- partly because it's frigging cold in San Francisco this morning but also to keep from replying more to JohnTosco because as much as I would like to reply I have a feeling anything I say back will just make him angrier and will feel like ganging up on him. Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts or magic words that tend to work. One bit of advice that someone gave me early on is wp:don't give a fuck I love that page because it's clever and makes a good point but again I find when I give that advice in these situations it tends to make people angrier. Oh well, I don't give a fuck (in the good way I hope) :) RedDog (talk) 13:37, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Sockpuppet
User:Today's Xtra and User:Here2HelpWiki have been blocked as sockpuppets (of an historial sockpuppeter, not just of each other). Seems their enthusiasm here was just a ruse. I guess we can ignore their old questions now. --LukeSurlt c 23:22, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

As I check here2helpwiki talk page I read information stating that both Todaysxtra and here2helpwiki share an IP and that their is desperation talk regarding understand how to get unblocked. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1zeroate (talk • contribs) 16:09, 15 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Sad. Good to know though. Why do people turn to the dark side Luke? RedDog (talk) 13:19, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Two small issues
Hi all,

I'm an experienced-ish editor but thought I'd ask a question here first. I'd usually just edit the page directly, but I wanted to see what would happen with the "Ask a question" button. I've got a pretty standard chromebook, but the popup box spill over into the margin and is transparent there. Clicking in the popup edit box in that region has (twice) made my edits in progress disappear. This may just be a chromebook issue. I can look into taking a screenshot if that would be useful for debugging.

Second, Bonkers The Clown is still featured as a host despite the fact that he's indeffed. Might want to take him out of the rotation.

Thanks!

Lesser Cartographies (talk) 07:13, 28 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Oh, and the answer to my question is .  Yes, y'all are so good that the answers occur to me even as I type my questions.  Well done!  Lesser Cartographies (talk) 07:19, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Wikimania 2014
Hello Teahousers,

Wikimania 2014 will be our largest Wikimania yet with an expected attendance of 4000+ with a massive focus on outreach and publicity. As such, it may be a great opportunity to attract new contributors. I'd really appreciate help with improving the wikimania wiki in any way you can think of, and if any of you want to run editing workshops at the event itself, submissions are now open!

EdSaperia (talk) 12:57, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

New page patrol noticeboard
Based on discussion at WP:NPP, we are piloting a new lightweight noticeboard at WP:NPP/N. One goal of this creation is to centralize issues with individual new page patrollers, which to date have been largely handled on individual user talk pages. The intention is to help us better identify and coach patrollers that may be engaging in behavior such as hasty tagging and overzealous CSD tagging. You are invited to assist with this page's development, and to post there to alert the patrol team of patroller-related issues you may encounter. Thanks! VQuakr (talk) 23:44, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

How do you correctly make a home page?
Thanks BatmanArkhamOriginsV3 (talk) 17:30, 26 January 2014 (UTC)


 * From the big box at the top of this page: "Greetings: This page is for discussing the Teahouse, please direct questions about Wikipedia to the Teahouse Q&A forum. Thank you." --David Biddulph (talk) 17:44, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Teahouse invitation
My I  gently  suggest  that  as Sarah does not  appear to  be currently  editing, that  the signature on the Teahouse invitation template be changed? Indeed, is a signature necessary? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:48, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi . It seems to remove her name from the rotation (I think it's a rotation of which names sign the automated invites), all that would need to happen is to remover her name from the list on this page's right hand side. I thought about boldly doing so, but instead would prefer to wait for some semblance of a consensus. I assume names are appended to the templates in an effort to personalize them, and make the Teahouse as personal and collegial an atmosphere as possible.  Go  Phightins  !  02:37, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

If you are American
Wikipedia editors seem to be more liberal than the general population, and yet the Tea Party Movement includes some of the most conservative people.—  Vchimpanzee  ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 21:15, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but what purpose does this serve? Mat  ty  .  007  21:28, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh, right. Well, to the more liberal-leaning Americans, I would like to propose that "tea" has a negative image. Wikipedia is unlikely to ever change the name of The Teahouse just for this reason, but I just thought I'd introduce the idea.— Vchimpanzee  ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 23:12, 24 January 2014 (UTC)


 * and anyone else who is wondering, I believe that (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) is suggesting that we rename the Teahouse to something else.  I personally, as an American, am strongly opposed to this.  Technical 13 (talk) 23:20, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
 * As long as there are no other objections to the name, I won't bring it up again. It doesn't bother me because I rarely think about it.— Vchimpanzee  ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 18:32, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I was originally questioning this; which I honestly had no idea what it was about. Personally I feel that the current name is fine, this as a Brit. Thanks, Mat  ty  .  007  20:48, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I know how much Brits like their tea, but I don't like tea, which is why I didn't like The Teahouse at first. Now I just think of the name as a synonym for "help desk" and I enjoy reading questions and answers and occasionally try to help if I see a question didn't get answered or didn't get answered completely.— Vchimpanzee  ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 20:05, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Not a British concept - based on the Japanese teahouse - see Teahouse/Pilot report. Nthep (talk) 20:13, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh, right, I have heard of that.— Vchimpanzee  ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 20:17, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Teahouse archives may be broken
Hi. The Teahouse archives may be broken, at least in a particular instance. Not sure how widespread the problem is.

Back in late November 2013, I asked a Teahouse question, and got good help. Now, in February 2014, I'm looking for that. So I searched for "N2e" in the archive search box on the Teahouse/Questions page, and found that my question is (supposedly) archived in Archive no. 160. So far, so good.

But when I follow the link to bring up Archive no. 160, the TOC appears correct (at least on my question), but nowhere can I find "N2e" in a search of that (now open) page, nor can I find the discussion when I click on the link in the Table of Contents "Where does one go to request a close of a contentious content dispute?".

So something is wrong with the archives, I just don't know how widespread the problem is. Cheers. N2e (talk) 13:38, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * It was specific to that page. A malformed collapse box was hiding much of the page's content. I have fixed this. --LukeSurlt c 14:14, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Luke! That was quick.  N2e (talk) 14:39, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

THQ padding
The question board container has lost its padidng below the section "USER BOX". I can't figure out why. Could someone take a look? Thanks, Ross Hill   Talk to me!  20:47, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * , it was bad formatting in that userbox. I've disabled the userbox as I don't have time to debug it.  I'm in math class... :p  — &#123;&#123;U&#124;Technical 13&#125;&#125; (t • e • c) 21:01, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks T13 . I'll look at that now that I know where the problem is. Regards, Ross Hill   Talk to me!  21:03, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

My First Article
Can anyone please have a look at []and let me know how I can improve it so it is not rejected again? Thanks --aksharapitre (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aksharapitre (talk • contribs) 06:29, 4 February 2014‎ (UTC)


 * From the big box at the top of this page: "Greetings: This page is for discussing the Teahouse, please direct questions about Wikipedia to the Teahouse Q&A forum. Thank you." --David Biddulph (talk) 08:32, 4 February 2014 (UTC)--David Biddulph (talk) 17:44, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Section edit links broken on Teahouse
Hey all, as you can see in the following screenshot...



...something on the Teahouse local CSS or JS is pushing the square bracket in to the "edit source" link. Steven Walling (WMF) &bull; talk   21:35, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm as to why VE is working on the THQ in the first place. I thought there was a discussion and consensus to disallow it there?  If that was the case, it shouldn't be an "edit source" link.  It should just be an "edit" link, in which case it wouldn't be running out of room on the line and squishing the bracket into the link.  If I'm mistaken that there was a consensus to not have VE on THQ, it is either a problem with the way that VE creates the link or it is a problem with how all edit links are no longer lined up nice and neat on the right edge of the page... Just my thoughts... — &#123;&#123;U&#124;Technical 13&#125;&#125; (t • e • c) 22:53, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

my article
i need help i am very famous in my area and people ask me what my story of getting to who i am and my article is getting delete becasue it does meet the guideline helpp please — Preceding unsigned comment added by Libanbarre (talk • contribs) 03:57, 14 February 2014 (UTC)


 * From the big box at the top of this page: "Greetings: This page is for discussing the Teahouse, please direct questions about Wikipedia to the Teahouse Q&A forum. Thank you." --David Biddulph (talk) 07:26, 14 February 2014 (UTC)