Wikipedia talk:Today's featured list proposal/Proposal 5

Reasoning behind the proposal
It didn't take much work to set up, and will take little effort to maintain.

It doesn't change the main page much.

If someone wants to run a more elaborate version of this project, for instance one which displays an excerpt from each list, then that can easily replace this version when it is ready. Tony the tiger has set up a department for doing just that, at WP:LOTD.

This proposal is presented as a stepping stone, because this version is ready now, and provides an immediate benefit. (Though the formatting needs to be checked/betatested, but that shouldn't take long). Providing excerpts from lists entails the creation and transclusion of subpages, and goes beyond the scope of this proposal and the template designed for it.

The Transhumanist 09:30, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I think this is an excellent idea. If featured articles and pictures can make it to the front page, so should featured lists. My only comment is that if the text is very short (as it is with list of popes), there is a lot of empty box. -- Escape Artist Swyer Talk to me Articles touched by my noodly appendage 17:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Note
The first few days repeat themselves, because I set it up to start on December 1st, and copied the first few entries back to before that so it wouldn't display redlinks. The Transhumanist 09:51, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I think it should be "Today's featured list is the List of Popes"--victor falk 10:17, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Done. The Transhumanist (talk) 10:24, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Comments and opinions
Where can I go to voice my opposition to this template being on the main page ? There are several proposals that are still open, I don't understand. Jackaranga (talk) 10:40, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This is a simpler version, which can be implemented until WP:LOTD is ready. The more involved method which plans on placing excerpts on the main page is far more involved, and may take months before it's ready.  This is a simple system to take its place until then.  And even if it doesn't get used on the main page, the template lotd can be used to place the link wherever users want it (like on their userpage).  The Transhumanist  10:51, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, but I don't oppose the template particularly, I just disagree with links to lists being on the main page, is there any discussion about this somewhere ? Jackaranga (talk) 17:36, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes. Here.  You just started the discussion you are looking for.  :-)  The template being discussed here provides just a link.  The Transhumanist  21:50, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


 * To discuss the design of a more elaborate template, one that will display excerpts stored on separate pages, see WP:LOTD. The Transhumanist (talk) 20:05, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Too soon to be on the Main Page?
As noted on the previous LOTD proposal discussion:


 * I propose that we run a trial List of the Day that is not committed to the main page and thus can begin with a modest majority and vote on whether the results of the experiment should go to the main page afterwards.


 * That was a totally different proposal about a totally different approach. This one is far simpler.  A trial for this proposal is already up and running at Main Page alternative (with list of the day).  The Transhumanist  21:40, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

So what is the main purpose of this proposal even though the LOTD system has not officially been implemented yet? Is it to propose how it would look on the Main Page immediately even though we have not yet discussed if it even should go on the Main Page yet? Keep in mind, there were some who commented on the previous LOTD proposal discussion that even though they favored creating LOTD, they also were opposed or were hesitant about putting this on the main page yet. And when I asked how long would this experiment be before this should eventually be posted on the Main Page, User:The Placebo Effect suggested "A year would be nice, but I'm not going to be marking my calendar any time soon." Thanks. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 15:08, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The purpose of this proposal is for a temporary solution that uses a template that is completely self-contained, that is, that does not transclude any other pages. All text is included in the template itself, and not on any subpages.  The creation of subpages is required for displaying list content and/or pictures, and is beyond the scope of this proposal. The Transhumanist (talk) 19:56, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * In a nutshell, this is a proposal to display the fully implemented and operational link-based List-of-the-day template on the main page. If there are concerns, then this is the place to discuss them (the proposal has been presented for your consideration for exactly this reason).  Note that this system is not an experiment, and is totally independent of previous efforts:  the  lotd template is working smoothly, and is ready to be used wherever a daily link to a featured list is desired: user pages, etc.  It was a very simple routine template design effort.  The mark-up source text for the proposed section for the main page was copied and pasted from the existing main page source, and is on display at Wikipedia talk:Main Page alternative (with list of the day).  It's a no-brainer, even simpler to implement than the totd system, which was placed on Wikipedia's other two main pages (Community portal, and Help) as soon as it was completed.  The Transhumanist  20:10, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

No thanks
Uses far too much screen space for such a small amount of text. I dislike the idea of including a list, but this is also a bad idea in my opinion. violet/riga (t) 18:51, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I kind of agree, but that's no reason for opposing it. Keep in mind it's a prototype. Is there somewhere one can see how it'd look on the main page?--victor falk 21:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes. A link, to a fully operational version of the main page including the featured list section, is included in the proposal.  The Transhumanist  21:42, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


 * What if the first few entries are included to fill up the space?  howcheng  {chat} 19:54, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, but it seems odd to have a featured articles and pictures with lengthy blurbs but have lists as just a link - it almost makes them seem like we view them as less important. Good lists should be available as a Featured Article in my opinion.  violet/riga (t) 20:00, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * True. And since they aren't included on the main page at all, it makes featured lists seem like we view them as completely unimportant.  At least not important enough to present them on the main page.  We don't even provide a simple link, so how important can they be?  A link would be a good first step, is a progressive alternative to the all-or-nothing approach, and avoids the awkwardness of presenting excerpts from lists.  The Transhumanist  20:40, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think there should be a blurb. Some lists contain no or almost no text. We also have to consider not overcluttering the main page--victor falk 21:03, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * And some lists have long lead sections. The excerpts from those might look just like a featured article.  The Transhumanist  21:36, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * You mean sometimes there will be a blurb and sometimes not? That's perfectly ok with me--victor falk 04:34, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Not with this proposal. The template that this proposal refers to is intended to be placed on the main page only temporarily, until a template that utilizes transclusion is developed.  Transclusion means displaying the contents of another page, and in the case of excerpts for a daily list, this would require the creation of 365 pages per year.  The template being discussed here is self-contained - it is a single-page project.  All it does is display a link per day, with all the links contained on a list in the template itself.  The Transhumanist (talk) 20:15, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Some list titles are longer than others, and may stretch across the screen. To off-set the white space, a link or few could be added to recent featured lists.  The Transhumanist  21:36, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Content on the main page must grab the attention of the reader, and make him want to know more! He/she must be like "Wow, I didn't know about that, let me read more".  List are there to help people find related articles.  There is no point linking to one random list, the number of users looking for a list of Popes is by far outweighed by the number of people not looking for it, more than 1000 to 1 probably.  But the chances of someone wanting to read a random interesting article are quite high.  Basically lists are not content they are there to organise it.  There is no point linking to a tiny random fragment of the "wikipedia index" if you like.  I can easily read articles with 10,000 words if they are interesting, but imagine reading a list of 10,000 tree names ! I would die of boredom after about 50.  Jackaranga (talk) 21:56, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I like the idea of having featured lists on the main page, because they are of high quality. Just a link seems a bit desperate.  There should be some description and a picture if possible, closer to sample #3.  –thedemonhog talk • edits 03:08, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Such a department is under development at WP:LOTD. But that will require dedicated volunteers, and may take months before it is ready.  That's because a page must be created for each entry, and that's 365 pages a year.  This proposal is for displaying something on the main page until that department is up and running well enough to be presented on the main page.  The Transhumanist (talk) 20:19, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I would tend to agree with the above. Having a link makes it a waste of space. The huge blank beside LOTD worries me in Sample 3, though. I'd shove it beside "Other areas of Wikipedia" instead. Sample 2 is out of the question, POTD needs the space when it comes to wide images such as panoramas. MER-C 04:14, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't like the huge blank either, which is why I said we should have something close to it. –thedemonhog talk • edits 04:29, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Tony the tiger is developing the department that will display excerpts of lists. See WP:LOTD.  To display excerpts requires the transclusion of subpages, which goes beyond the scope of this proposal.  This proposal is for a single template that does not transclude subpages, to be displayed on the Main Page until a department is ready.  I'm sorry that was not made more clear in the proposal (it was explained at the end).  I've copy-edited the proposal, and hopefully now its purpose is crystal clear.  The Transhumanist (talk) 19:51, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * For an explanation of transclusion, see Transclusion. The Transhumanist (talk) 20:09, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Add a picture and prior lotd's
I think that adding a relevant picture and listing the prior lotd would make this template more eye-catchy. I think if it was formatted like the featured picture of the day template, just maybe with the picture right aligned. Just think it will make the template less dull. Gonzo fan2007 talk ♦ contribs 02:51, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Adding pictures is beyond the scope of this proposal, because it would require the inclusion of subpages. For the design of the full-fledged department for which this proposal would be a temporary replacement, see WP:LOTD.  The Transhumanist (talk) 19:42, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Should we implement this temporary solution, or should we wait for the whole enchilada?
Should the template lotd be displayed on the main page until a more elaborte template is ready? ("Support" = "yes", "Oppose" = "no"). See Main Page alternative (with list of the day). The Transhumanist (talk) 21:45, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Support - as proposer. The Transhumanist (talk) 21:46, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose: You need consensus to do this, a wide consensus across the entire community, something that will likely take months of discussion. Prematurely including this on the Main Page is not the way to go, it is likely to start a firestorm and an edit war, in my opinion. IvoShandor (talk) 08:03, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * If that's the consensus, sure. But you haven't mentioned whether or not you like the design.  Your objection is on political grounds.  What do you think of the design itself?  The Transhumanist (talk) 08:44, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This straw poll intimated that it wanted my opinion on whether or not to put it on the main page, I gave that. Opinion on the actual design, I don't really have one but gathering opinions on a design through a poll is probably not the best way to go about it simply because it leaves an either/or choice.IvoShandor (talk) 10:42, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Consensus isn't five straw polls on different pages with only a few voices in the community being heard. Something like the Main Page deserves a lengthy input from the entire community, not a few who work on featured list or are aware of these proposals, that could take awhile. Consensus is not achieved through voting, even if it is done over and over again. IvoShandor (talk) 10:50, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Support Baby steps. Awadewit | talk  13:24, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose There should be more than just a link. –thedemonhog talk • edits 22:02, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * That's fine, but you'll be waiting up to a year for it (see the explanation below). The Transhumanist (talk) 10:30, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

General discussion of proposal
I had supported this idea previously when what was to be added to the main page would look precisely what it does at the main WP:FC page. Now that the example alternative page has a box which states only "List of the Day" and the promoted list, this proposal seems way too watered down for me. It seems that this criticism has been articulated quite a bit above, in addition to philosophical opposition. Since I have been out of the debate for some time, would someone fill me in as to why the proposal is so watered down now? Thanks. -- Wikipedical (talk) 23:19, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The rateionale is explained in the proposal. I'm not sure how you missed it.  The Transhumanist (talk) 08:35, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It says that the transclusion is too complicated for the proposal. Can I trust that someone is able to update this section then?  I had originally stated I don't feel logistics are a concern, but this proposal has gone through so many revisions with revised voting.  A suggestion would be to make your rationale even clearer to suggest that we won't just have a heading and link on the main page.  My hope is the end goal will be something like Today's featured list/Sample, Today's featured list/Sample3, or Today's featured list/Main Page mockup.  --  Wikipedical (talk) 23:56, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Do you know what a subpage is? To display a portion of an article or a list on the main page, an excerpt must be used from each article.  Each excerpt must be stored on its own page, with each page named by date.  When the date matches the current date, that excerpt is displayed on the main page.  One year's worth of subpages equals 366 pages.  Somebody has to prepare those pages, and it is usually some poor schmuck who gets stuck with the project all by himself.  Each excerpt has to be cut and pasted, and then sized and tested for proper display, which is especially tricky in the case of tables, and each subpage needs boilerplate markup and probably a few manual edits specific to that day's entry.  But before any of that tedious stuff can happen on a mass scale, standards need to be worked out for the department.  At this time, there is no agreement on how to treat lead sections, how many list entries or lines to include, whether to include a picture, etc.  That design discussion could drag on for months.  But selection of lists is also an issue, since the person behind that project wants to display FLs not in the order they were granted FL status, but by some arbitrary nomination procedure -- and that discussion could drag on even longer.  We don't know yet if he will walk away if the project isn't set up according to his design - he may or may not lose interest (which is another reason for a lengthy trial-period, to establish reliability).  The purpose of this proposal is to provide a temporary solution that could be displayed on the main page while we wait for the subpage-based project to get off the ground, which by some estimates may be over a year.  This proposal involves a single page: a template that already has all the featured list names on it, roughly in the order they were approved, and displays them by date -- no subpages are required, because there are no excerpts, just article names.  Is that clear enough?  The consensus seems to be that people would rather wait for the subpage-version, and have nothing in the meantime.  That's fine, because that means this discussion can be declared over and archived, and I can move on to something else.  I was merely suggesting an alternative to the all-or-nothing approach.  It was meant as a quick solution.  Drawing out this discussion for weeks defeats the purpose of making the proposal in the first place, so I'm content with the current consensus, which is "oppose".  Cheers, and cheerio.  ;-)  The Transhumanist (talk) 10:23, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
 * To be fair, I don't think people are taking this seriously anymore. There were just too many different proposals in too short of a time. Much of the bickering and different proposals seem to have been fed by ego (not by you, of course). I think this idea had potential but I think the user you speak of below killed that. Anyway, if this ever goes in any discernable direction (as I have said before) I may change my opinion of it. It's all just confused right now. Others are certain to lose interest in a few months (as it is obvious it is going to fall on its face) and then maybe a consolidated proposal can actually be seriously constructed. IvoShandor (talk) 14:14, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
 * A proposal is not what is needed. What is needed is an operational LOTD project.  You don't need a proposal to create one of those.  Once the project is operational and running smoothly, then it can be presented for consideration for main page placement.  The main factor in it's acceptance will be reliability.  It has to be stable, and that simply means that someone is posting the daily entries without fail - supporters must be certain it won't redlink.  Unless a way can be found to automate the whole thing (via partial transclusion, etc.) and take volunteer labor out of the loop, the project will have to suffer through a lengthy trial period.  And since technology in this arena (Wikipedia) is advancing so rapidly, I'd be inclined to wait until the means to automate the project becomes available.  By the time a manually-operated system is accepted, the functionality to automate it may already be available.  The Transhumanist (talk) 20:00, 27 November 2007 (UTC)