Wikipedia talk:UK Wikipedians' notice board/Archive 7

Wikimania 2006
There's a thread from the wikimediauk-l mailing list about the possibility of hosting Wikimania 2006 somewhere in the UK. As Angela suggests, there'll need to be a professional organiser, either from amongst the community or hired from outside to run the general day to day happenings. I was at Wikimania and there was a lot of organisation that went into it, particularly by Delphine (Notafish). I've invited Delphine (who is a professional conference organiser) to post her reflections on this to Meta, but for the moment I suppose, what we need to know is viable venues, ie cities and particular venues within the city, with good international transport links and some idea of costs and a committed group of volunteers who live within reach of the suggested venue. Birmingham, Manchester, Reading and Brighton have been suggested - there's obviously London too. I think that accommodation is a key element to this - the hostel in Frankfurt was massive and easily housed all participants (along with all other travellers) as well as providing substantial conference rooms and a restaurant and meeting place outside - it was all very convenient and comfortable. Anywhere spring to mind? Cormaggio 19:40, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
 * From my recolection, the youth hostel in York would fulfil all the requirements, although York isn't the best connected city internationally (although its probably about the same distance from Leeds-Bradford airport as Frankfurt-Hahn was from HdJ) its very accessible by rail from pretty much anywhere in the UK but road access is average.
 * Bristol would be very easy for me, and I'm sure it has a suitable venue but I can't think of one off the top of my head. Bristol International airport does have some transatlantic flights, and a growing number of short-haul destinations, but would require a change for many destinations. Its well connected on the rail and road networks (as long as people aren't driving from London or Brum on an August weekend). Connections from Heathrow are plenty (Rail-Air bus to Reading station, Heathrow Express/Connect to Paddington, LU to Paddington (Picc to Earls Court, District to Padd), etc. I don't know much about the National Express network, but given its strategic location, I'd be suprised if it wasn't well served. Public transport within the city is reliant on busses, which while plentiful aren't quick, reliable or cheap generally. If we could get a venue on/near the harbour (which the YHA is, but I don't know how big it is) this would allow water transport which is more reliable and not bad value.
 * Leeds, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Newcastle and Cardiff are all also worth investigating imho, but I know less about them off the top of my head. Thryduulf 22:55, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
 * My vote would be for York, but that's only because I live there ;-) &mdash; Matt Crypto 12:57, 13 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I went to a conference several years ago at the YMCA in Manchester. It was a national conference and there were plenty of rooms, and the conference was held in the same building.  Having not been able to go to Frankfurt I don't know what sort of numbers/size you're talking about, but the YMCA is worth considering in any big city. -- Francs2000 | Talk [[Image:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg|25px|  ]] 13:22, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm in Manchester and will look into it more next month when I'm not so busy with my dissertation, but thanks for that. My lecturers used to organise a big conference in the University of Manchester, and the Manchester Metropolitan University is also worth looking into. On numbers, there were around 400 people at Wikimania, although I'm not sure how many were in the hostel. So accommodation really is key. And transport, ie full range of airlines into the country and one 20-30 min train journey away, as a general guideline. Cormaggio 00:12, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Just to try to avoid duplicating each other's work, as per my mail to the list on Friday I'm searching for and getting quotes from several venues in both Birmingham and Manchester (and a few more places, possibly). I'll put an update on the list tomorrow, but it could take a while before I have much information. Dan100 (Talk) 21:50, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

If you guys come up with something viable, please check out http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2006/Planning#Location (sorry, don't know how to do interwiki links) and post your ideas there :) --68.5.96.75 05:32, 15 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I have sent my update mail to the list, but it bounced saying I'm not a member. I think the mailing lists are a bit foobared at the moment. I'll try again tomorrow. Dan100 (Talk) 16:28, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

One reason I couldn't get to Wikimania (apart from lack of money) was that it clashed with the World Science Fiction Convention (4100 people in the Scottish Exhibition and Conference Centre, Glasgow) - and not a professional conference organiser in sight (we've just got very good at organising large conventions over the last 66 years!). This is probably somewhat larger than what Wikimania has in mind :) but there are few locations in the UK that can handle events of that size - WSFS (the World SF Society) would likely only consider the SECC, and Brighton Conference Centre / Metropole Hotel, Brighton complex (the ICC in Birmingham would probably suit our needs but is too expensive to hire). For comparison the SECC cost a little under £200K to hire for the better part of a week, but WSFS got a bit over £40K subvention from Glasgow City Council for bringing business to the city. Probably more in Wikimedia's likely size range is the Eastercon, the British national SF convention (held over Easter weekend when hotels are desparate for business), which typically have 500-1000 attendees. You might want to take a look at some of the venues Eastercon has used in recent decades: Various Eastercon bid committess have also investigated the possibilities of Harrogate and Cardiff, but we haven't actually been there. Hope these give some ideas! -- Arwel 00:20, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Hinckley Island Hotel, Hinckley, Leicestershire - on the A5, fairly middle-of-nowhere, a short taxi ride from Hinckley railway station or a longer one from Nuneaton station; quite handy for Birmingham and East Midlands airports. Eastercon's been there 3 times in the last 5 years.
 * Winter Gardens, Blackpool - used in 2004. More beds to stay in Blackpool than the whole of Portugal, but it has to be said that the town's not very salubrious. Huge Pleasure Beach if delegates want to go rollercoastering after all the wiki-ing!
 * Hotel de France, St Helier, Jersey - biggest hotel on the island, very nice, has its own convention centre, but awkward and expensive to get from most places. On the far side of the island from the airport, but 10-15 minutes walk from the ferry terminal. Used 3 times in the last 17 years.
 * Central Hotel, Glasgow - entrance on the concourse of Glasgow Central railway station - very central. Easy access to Glasgow and Prestwick airports. Used for the 2000 Eastercon and previously for many Scottish national conventions.
 * Hotel Piccadilly / Britannia Hotel, Manchester - central Manchester, next to Piccadilly Gardens bus and tram stations, Chinatown on the other side for lots of places to eat. Very easy to get to. Used in 1997.
 * Britannia International Hotel, Docklands, London, used in 1995, a few minutes walk from South Quay DLR station, handy for London City Airport.
 * Radisson Edwardian Hotel, Heathrow - can't get any more convenient for international attendees, full of "long twisty corridors, all alike" to quote Colossal Cave! Used in 1996.
 * Adelphi Hotel, Liverpool - city centre location, a couple of minutes' walk from Lime Street railway station, convenient for John Lennon Airport. Frequently used (5+ times since 1992). We do have some reservations about security here, which would have to be borne in mind with lots of PCs and laptops in attendance, as the local scallys do seem to find it fairly easy to get access...
 * That's great to know, Arwel - thanks. Wikimania's budget breakdown hasn't been published yet but Angela mentioned that the overall budget was €100,000 - I'm presuming that was WMF costs and doesn't include sponsorship, but I may be wrong. Info soon forthcoming, I think (I hope). Cormaggio 11:12, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

I'd second the thoughts of checking our where Eastercon and other similar events have been held in the past. Also, with some of the very large places you really need a subvention to make them cost-effective (and I'd doubt that any council would give us one until there have been a few more Wikimanias to show a track record for numbers, etc). Two other thoughts: The OU/OUBS run summer schools and weekend schools around the country at various venues, including hotels and out of season colleges. These places would have the infrastructure available and can be quite keenly priced. Also, while I was working for the Party we noted that rather than go to one of the 'usual' Party Conference venues (the 'B's) it would actually be cheaper to all take cheap flights to the Canary Isles and have it there. It was decided that a major UK political party doing that wouldn't be well-received by the public, but it is a thought that might work for us, depending on the time of year ... --Vamp:Willow 13:29, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
 * From my limited experience, Hinckley has been an excellent venue in the past, although I'm not sure how well it scores on some of our more specific requirements (it's a bit of a communications blackspot, IIRC). It's certainly a lot easier to get to from overseas than it might at first seem, though not as easier as some of the central places. Not sure how the expense issue would work out, though; I don't remember it being desperately cheap (but then, I've not much to compare it to) Shimgray 13:43, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

In the original thread, referenced at the start of this section, I suggested that we should focus on universities and residential colleges near international airports (which was the basis for my initial proposals of Birmingham, Manchester, Reading and Brighton&mdash;having excluded London on cost grounds). We seem to be heading back towards that concept, which only really works for a summer/August date. If the pricing of WM2005 was typical no UK hotel with conference facilities will fit our organizational or attendee budgets. &mdash;Theo (Talk) 14:26, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Brighton sounds good to me, but then I might be living there ;p If London has been ruled out I (typical southerner that I am (ish)) would think that somewhere in the South-east with good accesss to Gatwick/Heathrow would be best -- Joolz 15:46, 16 August 2005 (UTC)


 * If people want to suggest these places please get on the phone and get some numbers for prices and availability! See Wikimania 2006/Planning for considerations. I am researching a number of universities as possible venues, and publishing my findings on the wikimediaUK-l list. I'm concentrating on universities as they are considerably cheaper than hotels - our total budget is likely to be less than £60,000 for 400-500 people over four nights/three days. Dan100 (Talk) 18:43, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

Update: I've set up Wikimania 2006/UK bid to try and put some order on this. Please add as you wish. Cormaggio 19:12, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I've just lookewd at Wikimania 2006/Planning. My initial reaction is "wow, that €20/night acommodation requirement is really a killer". Is such a rate remotely possible in the UK? Even B&Bs are likely to be £20-25/night,and hotels are likely to be closer to at least £40-60. It's really vital that a rough date be set for the meeting, else you can't sensibly approach potential venues. -- Arwel 19:40, 16 August 2005 (UTC)


 * My "back of the envelope" calculations indicate WM05 had around 30% of its costs met by sponsorship... which could be used to subsidise the costs a bit. But it seems the place they used in Frankfurt was fairly unique for being a hostel and a fairly decent conference centre all in one... But you're basically right - we're not going to hit EUR20/night in the UK. Can't imagine that you will anywhere else though... Dan100 (Talk) 20:49, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
 * I rang the YHA Hostel in Manchester and price-wise it's good but just way too small. Is there anything similar to the Frankfurt venue in the UK? (It's a hard one to beat as a venue.) Or even a big hostel which is near somewhere adaptable for a conference (and near required transport hubs etc.)? University accommodation sounds like it's an ok option, but I'm not sure if you can book a whole block - the Uni option in Manchester seems open but it's over that budget. Tricky, as you said.. Cormaggio 11:55, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

People might find m:Wikimania:City (m:Wikimania:City/Rotterdam et al) and Wikimedia_meetup_2005/City_Candidate_List to see what sort of things/venues/prices are good -- Joolz 12:38, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

New user who has just joined this thread, so apologies if this contribution breaks any taboos. But you might consider Telford in Shropshire. there are two YHA hostels in Ironbridge and the University of Wolverhampton has student accommodation in Telford which might be available. For a conference venue there is the uny, or you might try the Ironbridge Gorge Museum Trust, who have conference facilities at their Coalbrookdale site. Telford railway station has a direct link to Birmingham, although at 50 minutes it's a little outside your parameters.

Just a thought. Shropshire Lad 18:45, 29 August 2005 (UTC)


 * E'er, whats wrong with London. 3 of the best airports, and another close by. The mayors office would be glad to help, and accomidation can be found in every direction. It's also my most fave city. --Irishpunktom\talk 11:13, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

Update: There are now feasability plans for Birmingham, Manchester (2), Reading, Cardiff and, yes, London at Wikimania 2006/UK bid. The planning is now live, which you can see at the official requirements. It would be great if people could pitch in with ideas or (constructive) criticisms about these bids, and possibly get involved in emailing/phoning people. Remember, this is Wikimania 2006 - in the UK. Wouldn't that be cool? Cormaggio @ 08:58, 5 September 2005 (UTC)


 * The bid has now been promoted. I have also talked to professonal conference organizer who seems willing to take on the project. I will make a note of this here now LoopZilla 22:22, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

WSFII - World Summit on Free Information Infrastructures - London 2005
Another event in London (sorry), first weekend of October (1st and 2nd). Talking about free wireless networking, free of copyright mapping and open hardware. See http://www.okfn.org/wsfii/ for more details. I'm going, just wondered if anybody else is. Edward 20:23, 14 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Not something I can attend, sadly - but please let us know if anything interesting comes up! Shimgray | talk | 21:57, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

East London bid for Wikimania 2006!
There is a lot to be done, but the bid looks promising: see Wikimania_2006/London LoopZilla 22:24, 23 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Can anyone think of any sponsorship opportunities? Expenses might be high - particularly food and accommodation. Cormaggio @ 08:08, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I'll think. The GLA maybe? British Council? Secretlondon 08:50, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

New Population Estimates
OK people. New mid-2004 population estimates have been released. Time to get updating those articles. josh 21:47, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Family tree drawing programs
Does anyone have any experience of programs that draw family trees? I thought I'd be helpful and draw one for a page I'm updating but got extremely frustrated when it refused outright to do what I wanted it to do. Bloody computers... -- Francs2000 00:46, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Scottish "public schools"
There's a discussion on Talk:Public school (UK) on the usage of the term "public school" in Scotland, which is getting highly entangled with the page-move debate on same. Informed Scots, public/private school alumni, and whomever else might want to chime in there. (Especially if you happen to favour a sensible solution like moving the whole shebang to their preferred self-descriptor, "independent school", or at least a decent caveat.) Alai 17:34, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Dick Van Dyke
I added the fact the Dick Van Dyke's cockney accent in Mary Poppins "was ridiculed and is still frequently parodied." to the Mary Poppins article, but someone keeps reverting it, claiming I need to provide a citation. I've given a link an article in which such ridicule is mentioned but the other guy claims that it is too weak. Can you believe it?. Does anyone want to pop over to talk:Mary Poppins and confirm it. I suspect that he's dug his heals in over this and I can't be bothered to waste my time searching for specific examples, but I hope confirmation from a fellow Brit might help. Jooler 06:11, 3 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I've added my bit. I don't like all this "if it's not on the internet, it isn't true" Mrsteviec 06:35, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * It's infamous. Secretlondon 07:10, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Absolutely, I knew of the name "Dick Van Dyke" to mean a bad cockney accent well before I knew who the actual person was, definately warrrants a mention. Indeed to this day I rarely hear mention of him without it being a reference to that performance. Ayfeternowon Merry Pawpins! Mr Weeble  Talk Brit tv 10:14, 3 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm starting to get the feeling he is much more revered in the US than in the UK! Mrsteviec 10:23, 3 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I dunno. I liked Dick van Dyke in Mary Poppins, accent and all! It may not have been Cockney but it was funny! Don't see why anyone would want to remove what you put in the Mary Poppins article though. -- Derek Ross | Talk 02:20, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Royal Windsor
Someone is trying to turn Windsor in to a disambig page. Please oppose this on Talk:Windsor. Mrsteviec 14:33, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * This page isn't Wikiproject Pro-uk bias, is it? The Canadian Windsor seems to be just as notable as the English one, so a dab page is the right thing.  Just as some Americians sometimes need to be reminded they're not on us.wikipedia.org, so do some Brits need to remember that it's not uk.wikipedia.org either.  -- AJR 02:09, 4 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Agreed. A dab page is the solution which we used for the very similar case of Perth and it's worked well there. Why not do the same for Windsor ? -- Derek Ross | Talk 02:15, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

The dab page is obvious. Windsor itself isn't well known - Windsor Castle, and the House of Windsor yes. All Windsors should be listed on Windsor, including the Canadian one. Secretlondon 06:24, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Some Mothers Do 'Ave 'Em
This page goes into some detail about the pronouncement of the word "harrassed" and the phrase "I'm being harrassed" - and claims that it was one of Frank Spencer's catch-phrases. Now I have no memory of him ever using this phrase and certainly no memory of it being a catch-phrase. Is my memory faulty on this one? Jooler 07:49, 4 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, I don't known about the pronunciation but the spelling is "harassed". Frank often used to use the word but I can't remember a special catchphrase using it. Mind you I always found the program mildly irritating so I'm probably not the best person to remember. -- Derek Ross | Talk 02:29, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I think he just mispronounced his r's as w's. I think this occured in more than this phrase. However I also found him irritating ;) Secretlondon 06:34, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Wikimania 2007
As you may already know, London's bid to host Wikimania 2006 was unsuccessful - mainly because it was considered too expensive as well as the potential problem of the JANET internet access issue. It is still planned to roll this bid forward to 2007, as well as any other bids in the UK that look feasible (see Wikimania 2006/UK bid). I've now set up Wikimania 2007/UK bid so we can get ideas and make contacts early - please add any info you think might be appropriate. Thanks. Cormaggio @ 11:52, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Wikimedia UK meeting on IRC
There will be a meeting on IRC (#wikimedia-uk) at 18:00 BST this Sunday 16th October for anyone interested in the setting up of the local chapter Wikimedia UK. Also, Jimbo Wales will be coming to London on the 27th of November to discuss progress - it could be an interesting month. Again, please add ideas to that page for funding, possible projects etc. or just to add your name to the list. Cormaggio @ 11:52, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Manchester
There is a debate going on over the position of the articles Manchester, City of Manchester and Greater Manchester, which UK Wikipedians may wish to make their opinions known on. the wub  "?!"  13:05, 17 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Could somebody please, please help to sort out this mess User:EarlyBird is creating utter havoc. With his moving Manchester pages around. I have tried to get him to take it through official channels to get some consensus, but to no avail. He now keps cutting and pasting and creating numerous redirects everywhere. I'm totally exasperated and have got to go away for a while to calm my nerves. G-Man  19:42, 19 October 2005 (UTC)


 * The issue is being put to a vote at Talk:City of Manchester if any of you would like to participate. G-Man  20:37, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Is wikipedia shite?
I'm a big fan of the wikipedia but I've been reading the views of some critics of the project after coming across an item on this blog http://www.philb.com/blog/blogger.html and am now a bit concerned.

I decided to pick a subject at random - Michael Moore - and, sure enough, it contained some absolute shite. How about this howler 'That same year, he ran for and won a seat on the Davison school board under a platform.... ' OK, I know that many contributors aren't fully conversant with the English language, but shite like this could bring the whole project into disrepute. I can and will correct the offending article, of course, but I have a nasty feeling that there's a lot of sloppy stuff out there and that the sloppiness isn't limited to mangling our mother tongue.

What do you think folks? Is inevitable that any collective project will eventually be neutered by mediocrity and sloppy thinking?

Look forward to hearing from you.

Jerry


 * I suggest reposting this on Village pump - it's a more appropriate place and more likely to get you some replies! Talrias (t | e | c) 22:27, 19 October 2005 (UTC)


 * No no you dont understand. Dont read wikipedia, write it. It s much more fun. If you dont like the Michael Moore article fix it. There are loads of articles I like. Justinc 23:19, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

The plain fact is that "Yes, it is" and "No, it isn't". There's some really good articles in here and some really bad ones. As long as the bad ones get better and the good ones get no worse, I'm not too concerned. We'll get there in the end. It may be bad but it's not as bad as it was last year and it's solid gold compared to what we had in 2001. -- Derek Ross | Talk 03:14, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I think it is inevitable that you will continue to get a lot of crud on wikipedia but I also think because it is a collective project a great and increasing chunk (though not necessarily increrasing proportion) will become very good. The answer is to edit out the crap as much as possible, SqueakBox 01:31, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I just read that Roxy Jezel is half Thai and half Caucasian. This has got to be the most rubbishy, ignorant sentence I have read in wikipedia as Thai is clearly not a race nor Caucasian a nationality, SqueakBox 16:35, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Hampton Court Palace
A persistent person is trying to change this article to put the palace in Surrey. Even the traditionalists would agree it is not and I'm getting bored of reverting the change. Please vote at Talk:Hampton Court Palace that the palace is in LB Richmond. Thanks. Mrsteviec 22:08, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Bullseye
In Bullseye, for those who remember it - You may recall that the star prize was often a speedboat, (which was dead handy for those who lived on the 15th floor of a tower block in Wolverhampton or similar). I'm sure I heard on one of those TV nostaligia programmes that the producers of the show had some kind of a deal with the manufacturers of the boat and that they would wheel out the boat if they team won, and if they lost and Jim Bowen had to say the immortal words "Come and have a look and what you would have won" - that they would whip out the car instead. - I was going to add this to the article but I can't find a reference to this to check out the story. Jooler 23:23, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
 * This sounds like a good story. I think we'd need a really good source to say that the prizes were fixed (if that's what you are saying..) Secretlondon 12:11, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

There is a whole interview with Jim Bowen floating around somewhere; he describes a very similar situation, where there were two prizes, so it was sort of rigged.

Crown copyright
A large number of Canadian government-related images (portraits of political figures, etc.) have been deleted under an apparent conflict between the provisions of Crown copyright and the provisions of GFDL, and I know the same has happened to at least a few British government images as well. I have requested clarification on the extent to which fair use can be applied. (Wikipedia is governed solely by American copyright law, because that's where the servers are located, so fair dealing isn't applicable.)

Consequently, I'm hereby asking for some UK participation at Requests for comment/Crown copyright. Thanks. Bearcat 00:51, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Ronnie Corbett
Dispute going on as to whether he is categorised Scot or British, SqueakBox 19:45, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Request for comment: Nick Baker (disputed conviction)
Can someone with some knowledge please have a look at the Nick Baker (disputed conviction) article. There are a whole load of edits recently by new/anonymous accounts, all lacking edit notes or Talk page activity. The material seems to have been mucked about an awful lot and I am a bit concerned that a party (or parties) closely associated with the legal case is getting WAY too involved in the editing of this article.--Mais oui! 09:30, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

UK COTW: Education in the United Kingdom
Just to let you know Education in the United Kingdom has became this fortnight's UKCOTW. Come and help out! Thanks, Francs2000 19:34, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Britlist
Our article was created on 9 November 2005 by Tim Paterson. Today on the help desk e-mail I replied to an email of 25 October from a timP of britlist.com asking about the fate of an earlier article he created. I assume that timp and Tim Patterson are one and the same. So far, there have been no other edits to the page and no pages link to the page. The article certainly could do with a cleanup.

On the other hand, there are 109,000 Google results for Britlist see (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Britlist%22&tab=nw&ie=UTF-8&sa=N). I am looking for advice as to whether it should be listed on Articles for deletion or whether it is notable enough in Britain to warrant a cleaned up article. Thanks in anticipation of your advice. Capitalistroadster 02:18, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I would list it tbh. There are literally hundreds of websites and free papers along these lines in the UK, I fail to see what makes this one notable. -- Francs2000 [[Image:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg|25px|  ]] 02:42, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Re the 109,000 google results, it may be worth noting that for the search linked above, Google only gives 41 results before truncating the results ("In order to show you the most relevant results, we have omitted some entries very similar to the 41 already displayed.") A search for "britlist" (without quotes) gets to 58 before stopping.  Both are somewhat less than the "about 109,000" mentioned at the top of the search results page... AJR | Talk 13:48, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I tided it up, removing the inline external links and unsourced speculation. Though it still reads like an advert. Over 99% of the Google hits seem to be link farms with only 39 being unique, and an Alexa rank of over 409k would seem to indicate that it fails the proposed standards at WP:WEB. I'm going to leave it for now, but I will probably AfD it later. --GraemeL (talk) 14:13, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm inclined to think it should be deleted, and it's obvious that others think so as well, so what's the harm on listing it on AFD? At least it'll get a proper debate and resolve it one way or the other  Maccoinnich 16:03, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

I have just listed it. The listing can be found at Articles for deletion/Britlist. -- Francs2000 17:21, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Cat flap
Its a tricky article naming issue, but there is an open question as to whether Cat flap should be moved to Pet door following a recent VfD on Doggie door. I'm not really sure whether it is in part a British English / American English thing, but I've never really heard of a 'Pet door' and it feels like an Americanism. UK Wikipedians may like to comment. -- Solipsist 19:16, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


 * If Isaac Newton really invented it, what was its Latin name? Charles Matthews 19:20, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Research indicates the naming Newton used for it is hideously complex, but Leibniz (who independently invented a similar device some years later) called it a katzeklappe and this became the preferred notation... Shimgray | talk | 19:33, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
 * :) -- Solipsist 19:41, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


 * The apparently sincere argument that the "current name is not NPOV toward dogs" is easily the best thing I've read this week ;-) &mdash; Matt Crypto 19:54, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


 * The comment that if we call it a "pet door" people may think of goldfish is pretty amusing too. Tree&amp;Leaf 18:13, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

My full size colly sheep dog used to get out through the cat flap, SqueakBox 00:38, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure the word Pet door is seriously used by many, so I doubt the wisdom of this. —Matthew Brown (T:C) 08:24, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/The Thomas Marshall Child Murder of 1997
Could some British people provide insight as to the possible effects of this murder as discussed by Matthew Brown. - Mgm|(talk) 09:50, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Aluminium spelling
The "natives" are getting restless again. Could do with a bit of support/balance before the article gets trashed again. Wiki-Ed 00:58, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

University of Kent Students' Union
The helpdesk was advised that this page has been vandalised. I have removed the most obvious bits but would be grateful if someone with local knowledge could have a look and see what I missed. Capitalistroadster 06:20, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

County maps and such like
Is there a copy of the source for these floating around somewhere? Vector format preferable, high(ish)-resolution raster images would be good too. Chris talk back 18:14, 23 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Speak to Morwen - she knows about those. -- Francs2000 [[Image:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg|25px| ]] 02:18, 24 November 2005 (UTC)


 * What do you want? There are a few at Blank maps, I can fish others out. No vectors, I'm afraid, but I worked at high res and scaled down.  Morwen - Talk 13:02, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks, those are handy, 3x2 kpx will be more than enough :-)  Any for the rest of the UK and Ireland though?  I've found some of the Scotland ones, but they're all pre-highlighted with specific areas and (more importantly) low-res.  I might just pinch one of the existing ones for Wales and recolor whichever county is highlighted, since while they're still low-res, the scale is rather more favourable. Chris talk back 18:11, 24 November 2005 (UTC)


 * which ones exactly? Do you mean the ones of the current council areas?  Just point me at the numbered versions and I'll find and upload my source - it's a big tricky though (as machine with them on doesn't have a NIC I can use, so I have to shuffle them by iRiver.)   Curious as to what you are doing, also.  Morwen - Talk 19:48, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
 * So far, I've got the English ceremonial counties blank stitched next to the Welsh current unitaries (with numbers patched over). Could do with Scottish current councils or pre-1974 administratives, unnumbered (as I see patching over those numbers may be a little more complex with the flyouts), and Irish counties unnumbered (can happily use either 6 or 26 divisions for NI).  It's for a small private reference, where I could do with some sense of where county boundaries are.  Date consistency across the country is not particularly important for this.  I have about half a dozen RTL8139-based NICs kicking around if you want me to send one up.  Chris talk back 20:10, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

The primary schools of the UK have been blocked (well, almost)
A range registered to the UK Internet for Learning and containing no less than 512 IPs was indefinitely blocked yesterday; please see this thread on WP:ANI for all details. Apparently the range constitutes a network which will eventually to go to all primary schools in the UK. The old cynic User:Kim Bruning has suggested that Wikipedia might seize this moment to try to establish a positive educational collaboration—by no means concerned with vandalism alone—with the UK Internet for Learning. In fact, not to put too fine a point on it, to get some servers out of them. ;-) Please compare the Dutch kennisnet example. I herewith lob this idea into your collective laps, dear limeys. Best, Bishonen | talk 22:43, 26 November 2005 (UTC).

Troy Southgate
The subject of this article has sent an e-mail to the help desk requesting its deletion claiming that it is inaccurate. I have cleaned up the article. The article was created by an anonymous editor who I suspect was Southgate himself.

It seems to me that he is at best marginally notable and that listing on Articles for Deletion may well be warranted. However, I would welcome the opinions of British Wikipedians to see if he is more important than he seems.

Capitalistroadster 23:14, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me that

bishop article renaming
Hi. Today User:Bessarion has systematically gone through and renamed each article about a CofE bishop. What formerly was, for example, Bishop of Ely is now Bishop of Ely, England (Anglican). This is needless complication; there's no other bishop of Ely nor can there be any confusion as to which Ely is meant. Article titles should be as simple as possible. Now of course there are cases where some disambig is needed; Liverpool, for example, has both an RC bishop and a CofE one; and in other cases it is possible that an English bishop would need to be disambiguated from one elsewhere in the world. But most articles need neither the denominational nor the geographic disambig.

If this were all, I would suspect that Bessarion (a fairly new user) has just developed an inordinant fondness for superficial consistency. But I see also that he/she has spun off separate articles for pre-reformation and post-reformation bishops, e.g. Bishop of Ely, England (Anglican) and Bishop of Ely, England (Catholic). Besides creating a false dichotomy &mdash; it's a temporal distinction but it looks like two simultaneous sets of rival bishops &mdash; it's also got a whiff of POV about it, since it seems to deny the CofE's worldview, that they are a continuation of the mediaeval church. Furthermore, highlighting the inexeperience of this editor (as well as of User:Xramsey who appears to be collaborating on the project, there aren't even links between the Anglican and Catholic articles!! (Actually, at present no pages at all link to the new catholic article.)

Basically, the situation should just go back to that of a week ago, when there was a simple and simply-named article at Bishop of Ely which covered office down to the present. However, I don't have the patience to move all those articles, nor the stomach for the fights and acrimony which would undoubtedly ensue. So I'm just kvetching about it here. Doops | talk 01:23, 27 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Other gripes with these editors: lots and lots of uncommented edits, and (so far as I can tell) no talk page discussion of these quite weighty changes. Doops | talk 01:31, 27 November 2005 (UTC)


 * If responses talk pages are not forthcomming, try RfC. Thryduulf 07:51, 27 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I gotta be honest with you; I haven't even brought it up on any of the talk pages. There's something like 44 articles involved; and I don't know where to start. Plus, as I said, I don't have the stomach for so sprawling a fight. Doops | talk 08:01, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

''historical note (added to this page after it had already become an archive page): although nothing came of my plea here, the matter was simultaneously being taken up by other edtiors here on the administrators' notice board, as a result of which the matter was at least partially dealt with. Doops | talk 07:18, 23 December 2005 (UTC)''

Was Anglo-Norman a language or a dialect?
There is a Requested move discussion on-going at Talk:Anglo-Norman language.--Mais oui! 06:27, 27 November 2005 (UTC)