Wikipedia talk:Userbox migration/Archive 2

This is not a policy
As the page itself indicates, this is not a policy. If you want to host a UBX you may, of course, do so. But do not use this page as an excuse to attack UBX, delete them, or attempt to force their userfication. UBX policy is under development at Userbox policy and I strongly suggest that you resort to that page, edit it to reflect your concerns, and -- please -- move on. John Reid 20:13, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Please see WikiProject Userboxes for a more complete list of userbox policy proposals. Rfrisbietalk 21:08, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, you managed to lure me out of my wikibreak, happy? Should your proposal be successful and become policy, well done, should it fail to archive consensus, like all the others before, tough luck. Personally I'm not a big fan of this proposal, but that's only my opinion. However, until somebody comes up with a better idea and manages to gain consensus with it, I will follow Jimbo's suggestion and what we made out of it. We never claimed it was policy, and we explicitely stated that the best thing about it is that it actually works without the need to be one. If you don't like our carefully crafted work... "I strongly suggest that you resort to that page, edit it to reflect your concerns, and -- please -- move on." CharonX /talk 00:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Userfy Category
While TGS takes care of the Template namespace we can take the Userfy solution Even Further to accommodate the Category namespace

Hear is a Proof of Concept
 * User:X
 * Category:Wikipedians who are Awesome
 * Cool thing: You don't have to even see the link

We have User:X

We dedicate a userpage as a category page it can be User:Q/Category/Y or User:Q/Category:Y .We do not even need to create the page however if we do create the page then it can link to It's Special:Whatlinkshere.

On the page we want Include a link to

User:Yskyflyer/Category:Wikipedians who are Awesome

However the link is long and we don't want it to stand out so If you want you can even have the link invisible with a Space character



However AWB will try to change it back. so instead we can us a Zero-Width Space or another space of our choice. (Zero-Width Space will expand when Justified but i don't think that's a problem)

​

Then View the Special:Whatlinkshere as a Category

Special:Whatlinkshere/User:Yskyflyer/Category:Wikipedians who are Awesome

--E-Bod 02:02, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think this is a good idea. Masking categories will only encourage using them for factionalization. Either use them, or use not; there is no hide. -- nae'blis (talk) 15:21, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh I didn't Actually think about that use.I was thinking about it more like an easy way to identify the page such as for WP:AWB or i we were looking for a userbox to use on our page we could see what other wiipidias used in addition to userbox X.Now that you metion it it does seem sneaky and is not as good as an Ida as i had thought.(Some solutions just are too good to be true)--E-Bod 00:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm all for Category:Wikipedians. I see no need to userfy it. Rfrisbietalk 01:13, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I think we have a problem
User:Winhunter/Userboxes/EFF User:Winhunter/Userboxes/No-CCP

Both have been deleted, the reasoning being "T1 deletion as per CSD and Tony Sidaway arbcom case." —Mi r a  23:23, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I guess those who believe all userboxes should be deleted don't care that Jimbo endorsed the solution. Who deleted them? Where did you find this out? Have they been listed on DRV yet? Has any admin (yes, User:GTBacchus, I'm looking at you) undeleted them? Jay Maynard 01:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Jay, remember, good admins don't undo each others actions without dialogue.I'm talking with the deleting admin, who quite explicitly doesn't believe that all userboxes should be deleted. -GTBacchus(talk) 01:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Fine. Please let us know what the result of your discussion is, so that we can have a better idea of whether this compromise will work. Jay Maynard 01:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * For that matter, is the deletion recorded somewhere, so us peons can find out who deleted it, when, and why? Jay Maynard 01:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Absolutely; follow the redlinks above, for example, and click on the deletion log link. The hard part is remembering how to get to the log for a page that's been deleted and then salted; check Special:Log and enter the name by hand in those cases. -- nae'blis (talk) 01:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I am especially curious which ArbCom case NicholasTurnbull is talking about. --Hunter 02:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The ArbCom case is located here. See also the above section. —Mi r a  03:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * User talk:NicholasTurnbull.Please feel free to follow our discussion, and jump right in if you see fit.I would request that we all endeavor to keep our conversations about this issue at a mutually respectful level; I will certainly appreciate a reminder if I forget to do so.My chief concern right now is to avoid re-entering a "war" mentality.Please, let's all work together on that goal. -GTBacchus(talk) 02:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I am having a hard time seeing this as anything other than a shot designed to defeat TGS as a solution to the war. As such, I'm going to stay the heck out of the discussion, and hope that I'm proven wrong. Jay Maynard 03:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I am thinking, should we bring this case to the ArbCom? I am not again NicholasTurnbull but would like to have the ArbCom to rule on this once and for all, so they make a decision on GUS and whether past ruling applies to GUS userboxes or not. --WinHunter(talk) 03:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * You don't consider taking someone to ArbCom before you've tried to have a person-to-person conversation with them.Besides, the ArbCom doesn't rule "once and for all". Remember, that they don't think of themselves as a legal body, establishing binding precedent, and you'll get along with them better if you don't either. It's very hard, but think outside the bun. ArbCom said that recreations in userspace of any deleted content may be treated as recreations. They didn't say they have to be. It's pretty hard to argue that one couldn't logically apply that ArbCom result to this situation (if one were thinking legalistically). It's much easier to argue that, hey, why don't we choose not to apply that ruling, even though we could. It's much easier to argue that a smart driver wouldn't take that route, because a smart driver would be thinking about the social aspects of his actions as well as the technical ones, because this is a Wiki. -GTBacchus(talk) 03:28, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * If you wish, that would yield a binding solution on this issue once and for all.-- Cyde↔Weys 03:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Cyde, don't you know that No binding decisions is official policy? -GTBacchus(talk) 03:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * No binding decisions - "However, some decisions are binding until those who made the decision recall it. This is mostly limited to the bans imposed by Jimmy Wales, the Arbitration Committee, and the Board of the Wikimedia Foundation. These decisions can be reviewed by and appealed to the source body." and that is why I would like an ArbCom ruling on this (The decision on T1). --WinHunter(talk) 03:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Read carefully. This isn't a ban. It's almost a truism around here that ArbCom decisions do not make policy.I'm looking for a link - gimme a sec. -GTBacchus(talk) 03:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Here: Arbitration policy.Look at the box on this page - it's even more policy than policy.It says: "Former decisions will not be binding on the Arbitrators - rather, they intend to learn from experience."It even has that link in it. -GTBacchus(talk) 04:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * "Former decisions will not be binding on the Arbitrators - rather, they intend to learn from experience." - I understand the decisions by ArbCom does not have any binding effect on the Arbitrators themselves, but the decision on T1 has a binding effect on T1 unless it is overturned by another ArbCom decision. (The ArbCom decision I quoted did not distinguish between userboxes in userspace or template space) --WinHunter(talk) 04:10, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * You are right though, it is not and will not be a once and for all decision, but at least we get something for now. --WinHunter(talk) 04:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I guess I would contend that, with the enactment of the German Userbox Solution, the atmosphere has changed since that ArbCom decision, and we've reached one of those points where learning from experience is kind of begging to happen. -GTBacchus(talk) 05:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The biggest problem of all is that GUS is not a policy. So all admins are free to apply ArbCom decision on it as they see fit. I understand that the atmosphere has changed, and that is the reason I wish ArbCom to rule whether that ruling still applies on userbox in userspace. --WinHunter (talk) 05:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I guess GUS not being "policy" would seem to be the problem, if you weren't thinking of this as a Wiki.I think the biggest problem is a combative atmosphere and a lack of ability or willingness to see from multiple perspectives and understand one another.Those criticisms apply to all "sides" equally, as far as I can tell. -GTBacchus(talk) 16:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

We do have a problem - some of the admins are putting the userboxes in userspace bit directly into T1.This needs to be reined in, at least as to the interpretation.GRBerry 04:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think it's just patently hillarious.The admins who were deleting stuff out of process advocated this as a solution to the "problem".Instead, it's just another rule to ignore. BigDT 04:35, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

My archive
I no longer wish to be involved in the whole userbox debate, but unfortunately, I have an archive of seven userboxes at User:Digitalme/Box/Archive.If someone would be willing to take over, and bypass the redirects on several of them (I already did this on, , and , so these would need to be bypassed again.The other redirects have not been bypassed yet.)If you are willing to do this, then please do, no need to co-ordinate with me, unless you need help, and if you do this, please leave a message on my talk page when you are finished.--digital_m e (TalkˑContribs) 23:31, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * After reading the above 2 posts.I guess The Sky Is falling for TGS.We cans still Subset them before they get Deleted, (as long as most peple don't Object).That is a Typical Outcome of a Usderbox Deletion Debate.Make it more difficult for new uses of the template to come about but the old uses can stay.--E-Bod 00:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Also For any of you Trying To Move the templates, you don't have to use the Bypass redirect method to transfer.It can all be done waiting AWB.Just Find the Template on the page and replace it with the new template.Why are you asking for the pages to be temporarily recreated.If any of you need help i can assist.I managed to get AWB to just Find Pages linking to a deleted template and replace it with the template's code, However I needed to use some Regular codes to get it to put new lines so the template would work.


 * Isn't the point of recreations and moves to preserve the history? -GTBacchus(talk) 01:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Didn't think of that.Good Point--E-Bod 02:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Review Panel

 * Comment: I'd like to see fewer user boxes, and I don't care where they are stored. The German system doesn't answer the fundamental question: What is Wikipedia?
 * Some user boxes are clearly deleted under T1 when they are not inflammatory. The emotional attachment which people show to a particular userbox when it is deleted can indicate whether it is inflammatory, and some raise no hackles. I wouldn't personally delete marginal userboxes until a new policy gains consensus. And people wheel warring over this issue just demonstrates they are too involved to have a dispassionate opinion. What we need in the short term is a simple and non-time consuming way to determine which boxes should be kept and which deleted while policy is worked out.
 * I suggest a panel of five people representing differing shades of opinion, with a process that means some are deleted and some are kept. Then everyone else can get on with more productive things. It's silly to have so many people involved when at the end of the day, they'll either all be deleted or all be recreated. Stephen B Streater 20:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Does a userbox having people with emotional attachment automatically make them inflammatory? What about the organ donor one? That had lots of emotional attachment, but it is almost completely inconceivable that it is inflammatory. (I just renewed my driver's license today, and made sure to check the box for organ donation, in part because this issue reminded me of it.)
 * It makes no sense to do anything with userboxes until policy is worked out. All deleting some does is inflame the situation and make it look like those doing the deleting are trying to get their licks in before they're told not to. That's the fundamental argument here: an admin took it upon himself to act while policy is still in flux, and the consensus appears to be that that is objectionable. Your panel would be even more so. Jay Maynard 20:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * A panel might not be a bad idea, but I'd be shocked if anything becomes a policy on userboxes without just being done for a while first.I'd suggest that whomever forms such a panel look for 1) regular participation (no use having someone who drops out for months at a time), 2) demonstrated ability to be educational in discussing the topic, and for at least most of the panel members 3) demonstrated nuanced decisionmaking - no use having a panel of people whose opinions are predictable before they even see the userbox, as that would defeat the reason for forming a panel.I don't think this could become policy, but if a few people formed a panel that would chime in when requested, and that panel met Stephen B Streater's and my criteria, it could help and could even be a good enhancement to WP:GUS.I'm going to boldly take the suggestion, Jay's and my comments over to the talk page for that.So please follow up on this idea at it's talk page.GRBerry 20:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion arose today at the deletion review page.I think the idea of a panel is a good idea - the panel could educate and be more gentle about suggesting which userboxes just aren't in good form.I'm not sure I'd want to give the panel the authority to delete.But if it felt something ought to go, it could certainly propose deletion via MfD/TfD.And if there is at least one admin on it, it could also handle clear speedy deletions.I don't know if I meet my own first criteria, as I haven't been around long enough to have a solid track record.But I'd serve if drafted.I have the hardest time figuring who meets my third criteria - I have only one person in mind.But then, I try to ignore personalities.GRBerry 20:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * My reading of the debate is that extreme active deletionists are not the consensus at the moment, though Jimbo would like people to phase out POV userboxes through consent over time. There is a popular idea that where a userbox is stored makes a difference to how good the encyclopaedia will become. There is also a consensus for not allowing any possible userbox. And the idea here is to find a way to waste less time while policy is determined. Is there anything I've missed? Stephen B Streater 22:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Ultimately, I think this will only distract from resolving the issue. It's becoming increasingly clear that WP:GUS is not going to stick unless and until it becomes policy. I also don't think this review panel will carry much weight on either side. It's a nice idea, but fundamentally pointless. Jay Maynard 00:12, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm still holding onto my idea of Wikipedia as something more sophisticated than that, where forces slower, subtler and more diffuse, and far more powerful than policy decrees are what get things done in the long run. -GTBacchus(talk) 01:28, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't have a problem with this if it weren't for other admins jumping the gun. Jay Maynard 01:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Methinks that's actually a part of the process.-- Cyde↔Weys 02:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * None of us would, I suspect.Still, I'm confident that, just like in other areas of the Wiki, rash actions don't tend to stick, and what someone magages to shove through this month doesn't necessarily indicate what things will be like in a year.I'm willing to get my way by being the most patient. -GTBacchus(talk) 02:08, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * D'oh!Cyde's right, although it's not a necessary part of the process.There's more than one way to skin a cat, and the true Wikipedian can talk the cat out of its skin, and get it to thank him for doing it. -GTBacchus(talk) 02:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The problem, as others as well as I (and, for that matter, you, IIRC) have pointed out, is that the rash actions tend to cause much more strife than is necessary to settle the issue. Nevertheless, we have some subset of the admin community determined to take those rash actions, and the consequences to the community be damned. Such rash actions tend to drown out the slow, subtle, diffuse approach. Jay Maynard 02:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Only in the short run. -GTBacchus(talk) 02:21, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * What are the costs over the short run, though, and are they worth it? I'm not talking here about the people run off because their favorite userbox got nuked; I'm talking about the people who leave in disgust over the rash actions taken in opposition to emerging consensus and efforts to solve problems within that consensus. Jay Maynard 02:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I didn't say it was worth it. On the other hand, how about the people who never begin to contribute, because they look at Wikipedia and see a bunch of silly Internets people decorating homepages with little advocacy banners, and think "nah, I'm only interested in contributing to a serious encyclopedia." You think those people don't exist? -GTBacchus(talk) 02:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I guess I don't think they do...it would seem to me that most folks would get sucked into this massive time sink as I did: checking it out for reference, then a few more times..."oh, look, that's wrong..."...a quick page edit...and before you know it, you're hooked. Only after that point do you discover that a user account is a good thing, and then user pages, and only then do you find userboxes - but by then, it's too late. Jay Maynard 02:40, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe you're right.I think there are people who are very drawn to academic pursuits, and very repelled by a non-academic atmosphere.I would contend that some userboxes help maintain a very non-academic atmosphere. -GTBacchus(talk) 02:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Here's a hint: actually rogue admins get desysopped rather quickly.Those admins that are merely "rouge" are pretty much acting with the tacit approval of the higher-ups.It's a very non-transparent process, actually.-- Cyde↔Weys 02:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Okkay, so we're just supposed to trust people? Non-transparent processes destroy trust, not build it. Jay Maynard 02:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying you should have blind trust, I'm just telling you the way it is :-( Cyde↔Weys 02:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Awwww... cheer up... Huggles for both of you! (I blame this nonsense on coffein, sugar, a won WM match and the late hour) CharonX /talk 00:47, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

RfC and RfArb?
I really should stay on my wikibreak (as I can feel my tempers flaring up) but I'm honestly considering putting the latest deletion of Userspace userboxes on a RfC for the deleting admin. Since I know I'm a bit hotblooded sometimes, I'd rather like your input on what to do should the userspace deletions keep up, instead of blindly rushing forward. CharonX /talk 00:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe that this is going to wind up as an RFArb at some point, unless Jimbo gets off dead center and makes policy. If an RFC for the deleting admin is what it takes to get there, then we might as well get it started; I see little profit in further delay. Jay Maynard 00:09, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Ownership and deletion
Just wanted to bring something up (and as you may guess, I am opposed to this 'idea', but mainly due to technical reasons).

Overall, I think this makes a lot more problems than it solves, and will lead in de-centralisation (I know, it's what Jimbo wants...), which in itself makes it hard for people to find templates and will lead to countless duplicates filling up the SQL database. Ian13/ talk 13:51, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) How do you decide who deserves to own a userbox. Because even if no-one owns their userspace, it still has their username in the title, and as far as many are concerned they have 'claimed' it.
 * 2) *And for that matter, this may irritate the person who created it in the first place.
 * 3) If you use copy+paste, then doesn't this break the GFDL, since you don't have a record in the history of who helped make it.
 * 4) And if you move it, this creates a cross-namespace redirect.
 * 5) *To remove this redirect, you need to either:
 * 6) **subst: of which you will find many people don't want pages of unreadable code on their page.
 * 7) **Change transclusion, to which some see as vandalism, and brings up the ownership issue again.
 * 8) ***And you are then basically crediting the username in the title of the transclusion as the creator/owner, which I am sure many people also may not like.
 * 9) **and much of this work is done by AWB, which means that people may not notice user-requests not to do such actions, and this semi-automated process means this is ignored.
 * 10) Then, these userboxes can be edited mainly by just the user who moved it, since realistically it is enforced that the person who's userspace it is gets to choose what it looks like.
 * 11) *This is open to abuse, they can move it and change the content totally.
 * 12) **and if the transclusion location has been changed on other userpages, then their page is inadvertently changed, commonly without themm realising, and totally changing the meaning.
 * 13) **Or they can be speedy deleted through CSD U1: "Owner request. Personal subpages, upon request by their owner".
 * 14) ***Maybe a new start to the userbox war? A move and speedy spree...

Please don't worry about the database.The average hard drive in the servers can store many millions of userboxes.-- Cyde↔Weys 13:55, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Well yes, but it strains the server without need. There is more content to handle. It's not really the space I am saying, just the extra ticks (if thats what SQL calls them) that are needed to find stuff and execute queries. Ian13/ talk 13:57, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm open to other solutions. Keeping them in templatespace caused this mess. Forced substing won't be accepted by the users. Mass deletion won't be accepted by the users. A centralized display is opposed by some powers that be. This might be more server unfriendly, though probably not much since there only will be a handful duplicates of each, worst case (and even so I suspect its only a drop in the vast amount of data in the wikispace). And regarding "owning" the boxes. If a user puts his box up for transclusion, he basically says "I'm just a caretaker of it". If a users moves boxes and then speedies them, its vandalism (or people would get away with moving articles and then U1 them). If you have a solution that is accepted by all, or know a way how to make this one easier on the servers without treading on the toes of the various sides, I'd glady support it. CharonX /talk 16:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * My limited sense is that CharonX is thus far correct that most users who have started hosting boxes under WP:GUS have done so as caretakers.Whether that will hold is another question.I've seen one case of a caretaker asking others to assume the "burden" of caretaking.I've seen one case of editing a userbox that someone else was the caretaker of - I'd guess that there are more examples of this, but since I have no userboxes on my watch list, I simply don't know.Right now having multiple copies around and available is considered a good thing, which mitigates against the ownership issue.This is an issue to watch as the solution evolves, but at this time I'm not worried.The wording on the project page could easily be tweaked now to discourage a sense of ownership if multiple editors share this concern.GRBerry 17:20, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * As I've mentioned at times in the past, I'll only host userboxes which I have included on my own user page.My mindset is rather than being a caretakers of a collection of boxes I have a few boxes which I use and then make available to others do use as well.The archive page I keep specifically mentions that if someone wants to have a modified version they should copy the code to their own user page (or a subpage) and tweak it to their content.This may cause some forking but I feel it is better than having people scream "don't change that box, it's mine".I worry that if users try to become the caretaker of a large number of boxes they risk being branded an archive and then targeted for mass deletion.The same when proxy accounts (such as User:Userboxes) are used.My mode of operation will continue to be to host what I use personally and make it available to others to save them effort in recreating it from scratch. --StuffOfInterest 17:30, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * You managed to respond to my second sentence without comprehending the first.Please don't worry about the database.That is for the devs, and the devs alone, to worry about, and they are not worried about this in the slightest.Please don't get worried for them or project your worries onto them and then use that as a rationale for something else you'd like to do (like whatever solution you want for userboxes).Thank you.-- Cyde↔Weys 16:40, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * But then again, there are issues with updating the tool server and the like due to the sheer size of the database. I just think that slowing down the Wiki is a bad thing. Then again, we manage to keep huge amountsof revisions okay... Ian13/ talk 20:15, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The resolution is simple.It is a wiki, after all.If you didn't want your stuff to be edited by other people you should have uploaded it to a personal site, not Wikipedia.Users don't own their userpages and they don't own anything else in their userspace either.-- Cyde↔Weys 17:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * But it still doesn't address CSD U1: "Owner request. Personal subpages, upon request by their owner". Ian13/ talk 20:15, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * And that also shows that they are sort of considered an owner of types... Ian13/ talk 20:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Let's not discuss about formalities, ok. U1 is meant that a user may delete his own sandbox, or a subpage he created in his userspace for his own purposes etc. without having it to go through MfD. Not more, not less. CharonX /talk 21:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Ian13, as far as I can tell, your argument here is that a literal reading of certain rules implies that people do, in a sense, "own" certain pages in their userspace.But everyone knows that the point of U1 isn't to allow people to hold pages hostage because they host them on their userspace.Anyone trying to wring something that unintended out of U1 would be called out immediately for Wikilawyering.Technicalities don't have any weight here.The spirit of that rule is as CharonX says above, and that's what matters.

Besides, if these userbox directories are allowed to just be organic, there will be a lot of redundancy that protects against U1-style deletions.If people get the wrong idea because the page has someone's name on it, and think that person owns that page, then they're the ones with the wrong idea, and they should be taught better.People who really feel uncomfortable editing someone else's space can always copy the code to their own space, too. -GTBacchus(talk) 00:04, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm just saying that they *can* delete them and the like if they want. I know its not the intention here, but they can nonetheless. I don't really mind copies of these userboxes on the userspace, it's the whole crossnamespace redirects and especially how with moving they are put under the caretakers control, with the original (Template:User *) gone. Ian13/ talk 14:40, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * And I'm just saying that they're no more under their caretaker's "control" in user space than they were in template space, where anyone could edit them. -GTBacchus(talk) 16:22, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Categories with userboxes
What about userboxes that have categories attached to them? The German userbox "solution" doesn't include the category that a userbox might have added before. I had to manually put Category:Heterosexual Wikipedians back on my user page because the German userbox "solution" took it out. SushiGeek 01:17, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The German userbox solution does not state what to do with categories in userboxes. However because of their controversial nature, I've taken to a policy of removing them from the userboxes that I have moved to my userspace and then replacing the categories on the individual userpages. This is not a claim of ownership; I would do the same to all userboxes if I had the time. All of the editors who have reverted my removal of the categories from userboxes agreed with my reasoning after I explained myself to them. In your specific case, the only reason I didn't come by and replace the category on your page is that your userpage is protected and I cannot edit it. —Mi r a  02:16, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * All I'm saying is that this isn't much of a solution if there is nothing you can do about that. What is your reasoning for not including the categories to begin with, anyway? SushiGeek 02:40, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * If I can't do anything about what? About placing it on your page? Because the vast majority of user pages are not protected, and I have no problem editing them. My reasoning for not including the categories is that the point of the German userbox solution is to avoid controversy as far as is possible. Since they are controversial, and it isn't really that much work to just add the categories to your page yourself (and as I said, I replace them on any page already using them), it just doesn't make since to keep them in the userboxes. —Mi r <font color="Red">a  04:52, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The categories are really unnecessary and should just be removed outright.There's really no reason to be categorizing Wikipedians by their sexual orientation, or really, most of the categorization schemes that are associated with userboxes.Keep in mind categories were created to categorize articles.-- Cyde↔Weys 04:56, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I actually agree with you. As long as they're here, I'm using them, but I would not oppose their deletion. —<font color="Purple">Mi <font color="Blue">r <font color="Red">a  05:19, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

There is no consensus on the claim categories don't belong in userboxes. There are plenty of useful encyclopedic purposes for Category:Wikipedians.If a particular existing category is not wanted by the community, then mechanisms exist to address this concern, such as User categorisation and Categories for deletion.If a category is accepted by the community, there's no reason why it can't be included in a userbox. Rfrisbietalk 12:02, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Saying there's "no consensus" doesn't really tell the whole story.There's different kinds of no consensus out there.No consensus to delete is certainly not the same as "accepted by the community".All it takes is a few people willfully disregarding policy to create "no consensus".I'm not saying that's necessarily what's happening here, but I wouldn't blithely say that user categorization is accepted as a good thing. -GTBacchus(talk) 17:10, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I was responding to comments like, "The categories are really unnecessary and should just be removed outright."There's "point of view" and then there's "bias."Once again, my main point is, "There are plenty of useful encyclopedic purposes for Category:Wikipedians." Rfrisbietalk 18:46, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Is there useful encyclopedic purpose for Category:Wikipedians by politics?I tend to think those are just a bad idea, but I'm open to discussing it. -GTBacchus(talk) 19:27, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * For major parties such as US Democrats, US Republicans, UK Labour, and UK Conservative there probably isn't much use.For a more obscure party it could be handy if someone is working on an article about or related to the party to get some first hand knowledge by an inidividual who may affiliation with it.If nothing else that individual can point an editor towards more sources of information.Regarding general inclusion of categories, I don't think categories should be hard coded in the box.For my own boxes I list a suggested category next to the box code but just adding the box won't join a person in a category.That leaves things open to too much sneakyness for my liking. --StuffOfInterest 19:56, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * First of all, I'd agree with Rfrisbie about the various topics flying around here.Following the thread of user categories, I would disagree about the political ones for obscure parties.Much better, and much more Wikipedian, would be to watch the articles related to the party you're involved with and about which you want to lend your expertise.If you're working on an article about some obscure party then, the experts will already be watching your edits, and are readily available to answer questions on the talk page.If they don't seem to be forthcoming there, you can find them on talk pages of related topics, and in edit histories.The user categories shift the focus from the topic to the people, and their stances, and that's not ideal.We could instead encourage very, very encyclopedic behavior, focused on the articles themselves. -GTBacchus(talk) 21:10, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

There's userboxes. There's Wikipedian categories.There's userboxes and Wikipedian categories. That be three distinct issues.The Category:Wikipedia userboxes is a fourth. I believe the issue of what to do with Category:Wikipedians is sufficiently distinct that it needs a separate discussion. Userboxes and Category:Wikipedia userboxes is the matched pair.After userbox and the Wikipedian categories issues are settled, I believe the questions about mixing the two answer themselves. Rfrisbietalk 20:20, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I have problems accepting the idea that categories of users interested in certain articles are fundamentally harmful to Wikipedia. I have seen (and been involved in) cases where the exact opposite is true, a POV is being pushed and is successful because too few editors had a different viewpoint. IE- the NPOV looses. I say, deal with vote stacking where it is discovered, but vote stacking can occur by many more methods than user boxes with categories, and a sense of community is created when groups which have similar interests can discuss and contribute to articles. DavidBailey 03:53, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Bingo! Rfrisbietalk 04:37, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * (reply copied from above - DavidBailey double posted that paragraph?) I don't think anyone's suggesting that categories of Wikipedians interested in certain topics are harmful, the problem is categories of Wikipedians according to the side they've taken on some issue.Could you clarify how you're presenting a counter-example?I really don't see how it's any more difficult for "groups which have similar interests to discuss and contibute to articles" in any scenario that anybody is suggesting.What exactly are you arguing against? -GTBacchus(talk) 04:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The so-called German Solution is looking more like the German Pain In The Arse.One day my userboxes are gonna stop messing up or vanishing completely and I'm gonna say to myself: "Looks like they've finally dropped the German Solution".How about we just keep our userboxes and tell people that don't like our userboxes not to look at our userboxes on our personal User Pages? Sounds like commonsense to me. Gamer Junkie 05:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Why? All of the 'German' boxes recently deleted have been restored (overwhelmingly) after deletion review. Ergo this seems to be working fine to me. --CBD 12:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Funny, most of my political boxes still appear to be missing, among others.You were just being hilarious with the 'German' thing, weren't you? Gamer Junkie 14:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Examples? There was one 'missing' box on your page, and that just because it hadn't been updated to link to the new location. --CBD 12:32, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Examples being my "Australian Democrat" and "Social Democrat" userboxes.Got a new link for them? Gamer Junkie 15:58, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Both deleted and page protected by Doc glasgow in May.Any good faith admins want to "fix" them? Rfrisbietalk 16:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Who's willing to host them in their userspace?Give me a location, and I'll move the history and put a friendly soft redirect in the old spot. -GTBacchus(talk) 16:38, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * They are already fixed.-- Cyde↔Weys 16:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * By "already fixed," he means what Doc did. Rfrisbietalk 17:08, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * These two? Template:User Australian Democrat and Template:User Social Democrat... No that isn't the right title for the first one.Anyone? -GTBacchus(talk) 17:12, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Template:User Australian Democrats Rfrisbietalk 17:30, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks Rfrisbie.Now, where shall they be hosted in user space? -GTBacchus(talk) 20:49, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

It would be very much appreciated by myself and no doubt many others, also.How is it that individuality has come to be viewed as factionalism? Defining characteristics and interests are what make us human, so why are we removing them? This makes no sense to me. Gamer Junkie 20:40, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Gamer Junkie, you're really asking how membership in factions can be viewed as factionalism?I would question why you think of your individuality in terms of club memberships.Besides that, nobody is suggesting that you aren't allowed to exhibit defining characteristics and interests, in fact, you're quite welcome to do so. -GTBacchus(talk) 01:33, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm asking why political opinion should be perceived as some sort of "club" or "faction" like we're somehow drawing battle lines by doing so.I'd hardly spend my time arguing the point on Wikipedia with somebody opposed to my political beliefs, the same way Buddhists and Jehovah's Witness's don't slug it out on people doorsteps.RFrisbie, if I can host these boxes, tell me how to go about doing so, I'd be more than happy to oblige. Gamer Junkie 04:56, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Talk to GTBacchus about that. Rfrisbietalk 11:16, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, that's a fair question.Political parties are types of clubs, so I think it's clear why I chose that word.Also, if you say "this user is Pro-choice" or "this user is Pro-life" (just to grab an example), you're declaring yourself to be on one side of a polarized dispute- that's a faction.If you're pro-choice, and you see a pro-life box in someone's space, it encourages you to get a pro-choice box for your space, thus factionalism and polarization is further encouraged.If, on the other hand, a userbox says something like "this user is a member of WikiProject Abortion and works on abortion-related articles", that still lets people know that you're somehow focused on the issue, but you haven't made it about taking a side, you've made it about encyclopedic interest, which gives you just as much individuality, in a way that's much more related to the work going on here than just saying "this is what side I'm on, for this particular issue".Just taking a side is like saying that's all there is to the issue - this is my "side", the conclusion I've reached, and that's that.I'd rather have an encyclopedia written by people who practice the habit of taking nuanced views of things, and avoid easy dichotomies and easy answers.I'm not against you having strong views, and telling us about them, but your userspace here is supposed to be about how you relate to the encyclopedia, not a personal webpage of who you are - there are so many websites that are set up for that, and Wikipedia really isn't one of them. -GTBacchus(talk) 09:45, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I believe that people participating with the Wikipedia Project are entitled to express themselves, including their most contentious beliefs.I can understand your disdain for userboxes because you've explained the way you've come to view them.The thing is, not everybody will see userboxes in the same light as you do.I see them as each member's right to free speech, and to express their beliefs and opinions in a safe and intellectual environment, rather than in a place where posting said opinions could likely start a 3-hour flame war, such as a messageboard or chat room.I suppose, due to my beliefs, I would be considered a center/left person, if I were to find out that many of the members working alongside me on the "Resident Evil" articles were right-wing, this would make absolutely no difference in terms of how well written their articles are.In fact, the quality of their articles and dedication to the Wikipedia Project would determine the level of respect I would have for them.Politics and contentious issues are almost irrelevant, as articles not written from a neutral POV are always hastily edited to ensure that they are.The thing is, I agree that this isn't the place for debating morals or hot-topics, but ironically, the biggest hot-topic on Wikipedia appears to be the "German Solution". Gamer Junkie 16:54, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I nominate Gamer Junkie to host these userboxes! >;-o) Rfrisbietalk 23:01, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Isn't there already a collection of political ones... oh, I can find them pretty easily I suppose.... User:Ashley Y/Userboxes/Politics seems to be the place to put political stuff.I've just left a note asking whether Ashley minds if we userfy other political boxes to that space. -GTBacchus(talk) 01:33, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Can I get some feedback on my idea to --E-Bod 23:21, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Usage of
It has been my understanding that this template is supposed to be used on a userbox page after links to that page have been changed to the new links. I've come across many user pages recently that have not had their links corrected. Please correct these links before using on a page. —<font color="Purple">Mi <font color="Blue">r <font color="Red">a  06:15, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * You might get a better response if you contact those folks directly. Rfrisbietalk 14:08, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I will do that next time I go through pages. I was heading to bed last night and didn't have time for much more than a quick note here. —<font color="Purple">Mi <font color="Blue">r <font color="Red">a  15:22, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Part of the problem may be the need to list each userbox in a different location... the links cannot be consistently updated to just one format because the boxes have been relocated all over. However, in most cases 'Babel-X' and 'UBX-X' calls to a germanized userbox will automatically pick it up in the new location because of the built in feature in those templates. Thus, changing a 'babel-5' call to 'babel-X' may fix some broken links. Similarly, for direct calls like  changing them to  should work in most cases. Might help to simplfy some of these transitions. --CBD 12:32, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I usually do change "Babel-#" to "Babel-X" when I come across it. Thanks for the other stuff, I'll try to remember to change those as I find them. —<font color="Purple">Mi <font color="Blue">r <font color="Red">a  15:22, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Please see, and contribute if you would like, to the discussion at Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents. — xaosflux  <sup style="color:#00FF00;">Talk  13:55, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Draft straw poll(s)
I know at least three of us have been thinking about some sort of straw poll.Anyone who is interested in combining drafts, giving feedback, etc., is welcome to take a look at User:Rfrisbie/Sandbox .Rfrisbietalk 14:03, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks to GTBacchus, GRBerry and CharonX for your reviews and feedback. :-) Rfrisbietalk 02:23, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Straw poll
A straw poll designed to address userbox namespace location and related issues now is available. Please share your views at Userboxes/Userbox location straw poll. Rfrisbietalk 02:23, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Userbox
What exactly is wrong with keeping Userbox as is after the (hypothetical, it would appear) userbox migration? I don't see the point of creating a new repository for them and using the original to inform users not to make new boxen in templatespace. CameoAppearance 11:04, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Religion userboxes
More work needs to be done on everything listed at Userboxes/Religion.Unfortunately, since most of those userboxes started off as "this user is" rather than "this user is interested in" (and most people put them on while they were still "is"), they don't accurately represent anything, and will probably need to be remade in userspace from scratch rather than simply redirecting.-- Cyde↔Weys 05:33, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Something tells me that's the very reason no one has done much work on them. —<font color="Black">Shayl <font color="Purple">talk 06:08, 7 July 2006 (UTC) aka User:MiraLuka


 * A German Wikipedia list of religion userboxes includes a number of "Dieser Benutzer ist" religion userboxes without any need to be remade from scratch.That's a fundamental reason for this "solution" responding to Jimbo's May 27, 2006 comment. The middle ground is to let people do as they will in the user space, and merely use reason and argument to teach people over time why one ought not use Wikipedia userpages for political or other campaigns.... while at the same time saying, no, really, the template namespace is not for that, that we do not endorse this behavior. This is the solution that the Germans have put into effect with great results. Rfrisbietalk 08:12, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Here's a simple tale. I thought I would give it a go and try migrating one of the Religion userboxes to userspace.I moved the page and started bypassing the redirect with AWB. Things were going along well enough when Cyde managed to swoop in and delete the redirect page before I even finished! >;-o) After I figured out what was going on (sort of), I finished redirecting and (out of what I consider to be common courtesy) recreated the page to insert a soft redirect. Considering this trial run went so well, I thought I would share my experience with you all here. I’m sure others and I will be even more willing to put forth the effort needed to continue working on this peaceful transition process when affirmations from our colleagues can come so quickly. Ah, I just love consensus-building and cooperative problem solving like this. Thank you Sir/Ma'am. May I have another? ;-) Rfrisbietalk 19:48, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Removing userbox links from Userboxes
FYI, here's a conversation from User talk:Nathanrdotcom.A consensus of two appears to be sufficient to move the process along. ;-) Rfrisbietalk 22:12, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Obviously, the "consensus" for the above type of behavior is broader than I originally assumed it to be.Given Jimbo's proposed deletion of Userboxes/Beliefs, I encourage anyone who userfies a box to make sure it's included in at least one userspace directory as well.As one source, I've volunteered User:Rfrisbie/Userboxes. Rfrisbietalk 07:39, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I noticed that Cyde was doing this too.I know Cyde well enough now to know that he thinks he's doing the right thing, but ... I think that it breaks the deal.The whole point of the GUS, as I understood it, was that we could still create and publicize userboxes.If we can't list them at Userboxes/Beliefs or some other one-stop-shop like that, then it's much much harder for them to spread -- which means that fewer and fewer new users will realize that there is a big chunk of the Wikipedia community who think that userboxes are a necessary way to flag one's POV and encourage neutral editing and collaboration. --M @ r ē ino


 * The German implementation features do include leaving some userboxes. e.g., babel, in "encyclopedic" spaces and directories, while others have links to userspace directories.That's basically what's developing here - two sets of archive spaces, two sets of directories and some links between them. Rfrisbietalk 21:54, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

GUS userbox
I've created GUS's very own userbox, at Wikipedia:German userbox solution/Userbox. It makes it a little bit easier to spread the love. One thing though, I couldnt' get the border to show up; I tried to get it like WikiProject Userboxes/Userbox, but it didn't work.Any help would be appreciated. &mdash;Akrabbimtalk 20:43, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Cool! I touched up the border. :-) Rfrisbietalk 21:07, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


 * cough* *hack* User:UBX/DEUTSCH :) Perhaps they could be merged? —<font color="Black">Shayl <font color="Purple">talk 21:22, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Variety is the spice of life in userspace!I'll make sure both of them have a listing at User:Rfrisbie/Userboxes/Userboxes. Rfrisbietalk 00:09, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


 * That works too. :D —<font color="Purple">Mi <font color="Blue">ra  02:50, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I finally made the <font color="Black">Shayl <font color="Purple">Mi <font color="Blue">ra  connection!

Rfrisbietalk 07:28, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Whoops, I didn't even notice that I did that. I'm trying to stick to one account per discussion, but I keep forgetting which one is logged in. Sorry for any confusion. —<font color="Purple">Mi <font color="Blue">ra  07:52, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Look, this may be quite tasteless, and feel free to crucify me for it.But, every time I see this, I think of another "German solution."And I think of a concentration camp for userboxes.I chuckled a little bit; does that make me a bad person? -- <font style="color: red">T .<font style="color: blue">o .<font style="color: gray">n .<font style="color: green">y 00:31, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah! Not that argument again... We already had to move this from WP:The German Solution because of people griping about the name. For the last time, German does not equal Nazi.--tjstrf 00:37, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Y'know, it does kind of sound that way now that you mention it (and now I can't get the image of a userbox concentration camp out of my head *snrk*), but that doesn't necessarily mean that the name needs to be changed to something more awkward to avoid the association. I don't really think it's possible to completely circumvent that. CameoAppearance 09:04, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * There's a reason why it's called the German userbox solution. &mdash;Akrabbimtalk 21:25, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * What do you want it called anyway, The opinion of certain dutchmen regarding the proper placement of userboxes, now a widely accepted method on the english wikipedia.? We should credit the originators in the title somehow, and it's clunky enough as is. --tjstrf 19:04, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Jimbo PRODs Userboxes/Beliefs
On July 8, 2006, Jimbo proposes for deletion Userboxes/Beliefs with a prod reason of "per the emerging consensus that the German solution is best".See GRBerry 02:28, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


 * That's fine with me.To help facilitate the migration of wayward userboxes to userspace for this and any other group of userboxes, I volunteer the directories at User:Rfrisbie/Userboxes, such as User:Rfrisbie/Userboxes/Beliefs, as a means for keeping track of them.I also volunteer User:Rfrisbie/Userbox as an archive location for userbox subpages.My basic stipulation is that you follow my request posted on each directory page.
 * You are welcome to edit this User:Rfrisbie/Userboxes directory page, as long as you honor all applicable policies and guidelines. It is recommended this directory be updated in one of three basic ways:
 * If you move a userbox linked here to userspace, and then bypass redirects with a tool such as AWB, this page will be updated as part of that process.
 * If you copy-and-paste a userbox linked here to userspace, please update the links here to reflect the userspace location.
 * If you create a new userbox, feel free to add it to a directory.
 * Rfrisbietalk 02:52, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Now here I was going to object, but I forgot about your pages.

I think the WP:UBX pages can be safely deleted, after checking to be sure all userboxes are linked in Rfrisbie's directories. My main concern is with userboxes becoming "lost". —<font color="Purple">Mi <font color="Blue">ra  04:02, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Because I created mirror pages then many of us updated them to reflect userspace locations, the userboxes most likely to get "lost" due to directory deletions are those that were created after the mirror creations.Of course, List of userboxes could "find" them, if it got updated. Rfrisbietalk 04:15, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Category:User templates and its subcats also would work, but I don't know how much that's used or known of by userbox creators. —<font color="Purple">Mi <font color="Blue">ra  04:17, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Unreliable, and of course, that's another...issue.

Let's just check for newbies on Userboxes/Beliefs after 20:37, June 9, 2006, and add them to User:Rfrisbie/Userboxes/Beliefs. The migration of the boxes themselves then can continue to proceed from there. Rfrisbietalk 04:32, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Heh, I was going to say that too, but then I got distracted with other stuff (namely LOTRO). I've been all over the place tonight. —<font color="Black">Shayl <font color="Purple">talk 05:00, 9 July 2006 (UTC) (aka User:MiraLuka)


 * I made the updates to User:Rfrisbie/Userboxes/Beliefs. The next steps, as I see them, would be to do some more userfying via moves, bypassing hard redirects, replacing with soft redirects, bla bla bla, and all that good stuff! :-) Rfrisbietalk 05:19, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I also updated the remaining Politics and Beliefs directories at User:Rfrisbie/Userboxes and placed a message at their corresponding Userboxes pages:
 * "Due to the emerging consensus on the German userbox solution for migrating userboxes to the User namespace, it is strongly recommended that no new userboxes on this topic be created in Template namespace or added to this directory.Instead, please see WP:GUS, User:GRBerry/German userbox solution, and User:UBX/Userboxes/General Nav for alternatives."
 * Hopefully, fewer new boxes on these topics will be added outside of userspace as the migration continues. Rfrisbietalk 23:43, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I am having a hard time understanding why user boxes are a problem for WP, and what the German UB solution actually solves. See: Wikipedia talk:German userbox solution/Userbox location straw poll. -- Meyer 04:32, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Archived
I just archived this page because it was getting huge. I don't think I caught any active discussions in there, but if I did, I'm sorry. —<font color="Purple">Mi <font color="Blue">ra  04:12, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Quick grammar lesson
This page keeps talking about "an Userbox", it's actually "a Userbox". What matters is not the letter used but the sound. "User" begins with a consonant (just like you say "write an x" or "he was an honourable man" and "it was a horribly bad film" or "'deceit' is written with a 'c', not an 's'"). I just thought that I would let you all know. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 08:07, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I have fixed the two instances of this that I found. —<font color="Purple">Mi <font color="Blue">ra  22:52, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Great! Yes, I think it was only two instances somewhere near the bottom. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 00:07, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth this is proof that English is actually a spoken language, and any written attempts are merely ways of recording that spoken language on paper (as opposed to the other way around).We've evolved vocalization over millions of years, whereas we've only dealt with writing for a few thousand years.So it's still very much necessarily a spoken language first.-- Cyde↔Weys 00:10, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but a/an is not an arbitrary writing principle - it's a result of the way the language is spoken! It's like how "an apkin" (a word related to "apron") changed to "a napkin". Also, English is not my first language (it's more like my third) but I'm assuming that the two errors were made by an L1 speaker (such is the nature of Wikipedia and WP:BIAS), which would be truly embarassing... Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 09:02, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I just checked my contributions and saw that it was I that made the grammatically incorrect contribution. Whoops. (May I still keep that en-3 babelbox on my userpage or should I downgrade?) Charon<font color="Black">X /talk 16:43, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Not necessary, but I wonder how good you really are at Java... At least it's a real language, imagine having vb-3! So why does the napkin article not mention apkins? Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 18:12, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I must admit, I'm not as good at Java as I used to be, probably should go down to 2 there. During the pratical stages of my university time I programmed plenty of Java, alone and in a team, but lately I fear I've become a bit rusty. And yeah, I agree that Visual Basic is not a real "programming language"... Charon<font color="Black">X /talk 23:44, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Changing user pages
At least one user, Rfrisbie, is so zealous to implement this solution that he is sweeping user pages changing references to user boxes he has "userfied" to point to templates he has in his own namespace. While I have no problem with complying with changes in WP policy, I realize that user pages are the property of the community, and the changes in question are intended not to change the appearance of the edited user pages, I still feel this action goes beyond the limits of etiquette.

Just changing the controversial template to a redirect would have been enough for most users to educate themselves on this policy and update their pages themselves. If it's an issue that requires the user's attention as soon as possible, then a talk page note would have been the way to handle it. But unless I have something so terrible on my page that it's removal is a WP emergency, then I ask the respect of letting me make the change myself. -- Meyer 23:14, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, guilty as charged.However, after doing literally thousands of redirects, I've received only a handful of objections, such as Meyer's.The issue for me is moving a page without cleaning up the redirect mess is more irresponsible than stopping halfway.There's no way to do this without offending someone, so once again, I apologize for offending Meyer.However, not bypassing redirects is more offensive IMHO. "Redirects should be bypassed in a timely fashion." is one of the steps outlined under Migration of the Userboxes.That's what I did and will continue to do, unless a groundswell (which should have arrived by now) tells me to stop. Rfrisbietalk 23:29, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I've been using the soft redirect warning User GUS UBX to, but there still remains many of these that are left unnoticed for a considerable amount of time, such as subpages devoted to userboxes, which are for the most part overlooked by their respective users.Controversial or not, I don't have the time or desire to go through all of the hundreds and change them; if it's going to be done at all it should be relegated to a bot (I would hope Rfrisbie has more encyclopedic tasks to occupy himself with). I'm assuming that the goal will be to mark the old templates for speedy deletion, but you can't do that with hundreds of pages transcluding them. After thinking about it, after a certain amount of time either the users need to be notified directly or they should all be changed to the new userfied box. How long do we want these dead soft redirects to sit there? &mdash;Akrabbimtalk 02:29, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Indefinitely. Dead templates on user pages do no harm to encyclopedic content. Active users will eventually notice the user box and fix their page; inactive users' pages can stay that way permanently if they never come back. -- Meyer 02:37, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, I was just wondering about the possible server load. Just having them deleted and gone would be a burden off my mind and the servers', but if it's not a problem, then that answers my question. &mdash;Akrabbimtalk 02:47, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, no, the soft redirects are deleted after a period of time.The point of GUS is to get them out of the official namespaces, not leave a bunch of pointers behind.-- Cyde↔Weys 04:35, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Opposed
This is also at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Userboxes.

I am against the German userbox solution and want to see it halted and reversed. User templates are still templates and they belong in the Template space not User space. I will never use a user template from user space. The code for them is clunky and unsightly. They are hideous to look at (an eyesore) in user template categories. The simple Template:User X is so much better to look at than User:Someuser/someuserboxs/User X. It gets worse when variables are involved.

I suggest that we use template language to its fullest potential. Userboxes need to be created with variables so that the need for several under one topic or with the same theme are unneeded. Please see the following userboxes.
 * User:UBX/Doctor Who Doctor will replace 10 userboxes.
 * User:UBX/Star Trek series will replace 6 userboxes.
 * User:UBX/Monty Python will replace 9 userboxes, this userbox is also customizable to whatever the user wants it to say.

This will require that Category:User templates be patrolled and policed to keep an eye on new userboxes created. It will also require a useful userbox creation manual be written for novices.

I am already looking at the merger of six more groups of userboxes. There are probably plenty more out there that can be merged. The fewer userboxes there are that are saying the same basic thing, the better. It should quell the sentiment against them, make finding a favorite subject userbox easier, and hopefully keep them in template space.

If to stop and reverse the German userbox solution and keep user templates in the template space means that we must reduce the amount of user templates, then we need to find a way of keeping the content by merging as many like templates as possible and provide variable usage. That is my goal. One idea I have is to merge the 100s of language templates with 1 language template with variables so when adding it to a page it may look something like this... If that template were in place, and everyone used it, think of how many user templates could be deleted from template space. That template would generate template text and level colors, if we had a color convention for all languages, and add the user to the appropriate language Wikipedian category. It would probably be the most used of all templates. Also, it will show new users how to deal with variables in templates. I just wish that I could write it, but at the moment I am not that good.

If we can show those against user templates that there is a viable solution to keeping them under control while keeping them in template space, the need to userfy them would disappear. That would be a good thing.

After a merge, the old single use templates would need to be deleted. The reason to delete the mergered templates is clean-up and to make the merged template the only one available. We don't need all of the redundant ones taking up space on the servers, even if it is only a few bytes. You have to remember, those few bytes have to be multiplied by however many times that template is edited. A template that is 100 bytes, edited 10 times, is now taking up 1000 bytes of space or more.

I know that this may not reflect popular opinion. I am just hoping to keep all user templates, and they are templates, in Template space. &mdash;Lady Aleena talk / contribs 06:31, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * This would be a nice way of dealing with userbox series. However, reversing the German Solution is an entirely different issue and, while I hate the idea as much as you (though for other reasons), there's no need to undo the changes already made until the rest of the community agrees that it isn't working. Why can't these codes be utilized in conjunction with the German Solution though? Is there some part of the dark arts that only works in pages that start with "Template:"


 * Also, you do realize that the entire Dr. Who series you posted there could be replaced by a single box with an input field, correct? ("This user has been a fan of Dr. Who since the Dr.") --tjstrf 07:47, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Could you link me to the page with that magic word on it so I can see what it can do? You can put it here or on my talk page, your choice. - LA @ 22:54, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I must admit I was among those that would not have minded to see Boxes remain in userspace, but there was also a sizeable faction of users (and admins) who felt POV etc. userboxes should be "killed with fire" and acted accordingly. *cough*speedydeletions*cough*T2*cough*thisuser isaatheist isintrestedinatheism*cough*. In response pro userbox admins undeleted some of the speedy deletions, and undeleted boxes were speedied again, the debate grew heated and lots of shouting and wheelwarring occured. Several good editors left Wikipedia for good. I don't know if you were present, but be assure that period was not nice(tm). Several policy proposals were started and ended up deadlocked without consensus. Then things clamed down slightly (but deletions and arguing still was a hourly occurance), but we decided that is was best to follow Jimbo's advice (see top of GUS page) and try to walk a middle path to satisfy both sides - we keep POV userbox, but we keep them outside the "holy POV free" templatespace - and conveniently outside WP:CSD-T1. And so far it works pretty well, even some of the staunch userbox opponents agreed that this is a solution everyone can live with. Charon<font color="Black">X /talk 01:21, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

What exactly is the point of doing this???
I really don't understand the purpose of GUS. If we're just going to send each userbox to a separate user subpage, and then place each in a directory, we might as well keep it as it is now. Why are we doing this? --walkingencyclopedia 14:01, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Try reading some of the history.There is a large faction, including Jimbo, who want to make a clear deliniation between encylopedic and user related content.At one extreme is those who want to remove any and all non-enclopedic content no matter where it resides.At the other end are those who say anything, anywhere, anytime.GUS is an attempt at a middle ground to let people express their opinions while still keeping the encylopedia relatively clean.It is much mroe of a political compromise than any sort of technical issue driving this.After watching the war rage for over half a year, this solution appears to be calming things down at least a little bit. --StuffOfInterest 14:06, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, it does seem like it could work. Thanks for the info.--walkingencyclopedia 14:15, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It basically was a way to stop the debating. It doesn't actually solve anything, except for the people who think that which server folder something is in determines whether it is a problem or not. But if everyone agrees to ignore a problem, and does so, then I guess the problem has been dealt with, at least until it gets brought up again. --tjstrf 14:20, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty much indifferent about this now. I think everyone should just mind their own businesses. We should just all be able to use the userboxes as we please. You don't have to even place userboxes if you don't want to. Wikipedia is based on American soil, therefore, we have a right to democratic principles.--walkingencyclopedia 16:28, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Incorrect. Private entities are not generally required to abide by the 1st Amendment. You have two rights here: the right to fork and the right to leave. -- nae'blis (talk) 16:41, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Also arguably the right to edit, but that one's an administration-granted right (similar to voting in the U.S.), not an inalienable one. And walkingencyclopedia, the thing to realize is that, prior to this debate, there were a ton of userboxes which basically just insulted people. (Indeed, there probably still are a few dozen floating around) So this was a rather important argument to have even if it didn't resolve the primary issue it was meant to address. --tjstrf 17:32, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

"Jimbo says"?
I feel like I'm reading a bible quote at the front of some religious tract handed to me on the street. I realize that the guy is the {co}founder of Wikipedia, but the point of Wikipedia is that information - and the process of managing it - is run horizontally and not hierarchically. Why was I looking at this page? Oh yeah, to figure out what this "German userbox solution" is all about. Now I just don't care. – Morganfitzp 05:46, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I see the concern.Having been part of the campaign of the "userbox wars" immediately prior to the creation of this page, I understand why it is there.If you missed the "war" and were productively editing, congratulations!Hopefully by this time next year that can go away and we can all agree that this has been accepted by the community.When this started, there were concerns that one faction wouldn't accept any compromise and a belief that that faction felt vindicated in their position by earlier comments by Jimbo.GRBerry 06:50, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Looks like someone missed the "Jimbo is a one-man supermajority" clause in the rules. ;) Basically, a major reason we're trying this is because Jimbo so, so including that in the list of reasons is just honesty. Otherwise, we'd probably still be arguing over it. If you think thus saith Jimbo smacks a bit too much of religious pronouncement, you're probably right, but that's how things occasionally have to work. --tjstrf 09:12, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

GUS Template
I have created a template [referencing what is said on the project page] saying roughly 'If you migrate a userbox I am using to userspace, please change the userbox on this page'. It is intended to be used on userpages to signify that you don't mind [not that many people do]. If the general consensus is that it will be useful, I will add a link on the project page. Hope it helps. >< Richard 06  12  '''UW 16:27, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Sure, anything that helps the process is fine with me.

Rfrisbietalk 17:28, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Done >< Richard 06  12  '''UW 20:10, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

"Per the German solution" boxes
Can we replace the "Per the German solution" boxes with simple redirects? &mdash;Ashley Y 07:06, 30 July 2006 (UTC)