Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/4

Introduction
The purpose of this discussion page is to select 10,000 topics for which Wikipedia should have high-quality articles. All Wikipedia editors are welcome to participate. Individual topics are proposed for addition or removal, followed by discussion and !voting. It is also possible to propose a swap of a new topic for a lower-priority topic already on the list.

All level 4 nominations must be of an article already listed at level 5.

When you are making a decision whether to add or remove a particular topic from the Vital Articles Level 4 list, we strongly recommend that you review and compare the other topics in the same category in order to get a better sense of what other topics are considered vital in that area. We have linked the sublists at the top of each proposal area.

For reference, the following times apply for today:


 * 15 days ago was:, (UTC)
 * 30 days ago was:, (UTC)
 * 60 days ago was:, (UTC)

African capitals: swap and  out for  and
and are significantly smaller cities in smaller countries than  and. The current listing is a result of bias against CAR and Mauritania, less generally visible African countries in English media than Botswana and Namibia.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom.  J  947  ‡ edits 00:59, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 01:04, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 14:26, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 4) SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:09, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 5) Support additions Interstellarity (talk) 20:40, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose removals.  The  Blue  Rider  Postal horn icon.svg 19:48, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose removals Interstellarity (talk) 20:40, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Mixed


 * Discussion
 * Not too sure, Botswana and Namibia are more economically powerful.  The Blue  Rider  Postal horn icon.svg 06:05, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Add
The opposite of. Has historical significance though not as common as it used to be. Interstellarity (talk) 23:13, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 23:13, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) and  are both VA3, and this used to be very important as the main type of phone before mobile phones, so it makes sense at VA4. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:21, 26 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) I would prefer to see elevated to Level/4. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 08:03, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
 * +1 This proposal makes more sense given that Landline will be dispatched to history. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:11, 19 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Neutral


 * Discussion

Move, , , and to Technology
Seems to be the right place for them. They are there at level 5. Interstellarity (talk) 16:20, 24 February 2024 (UTC)


 * I feel that these are more companies/businesses than a "technology" (i.e. like ). Aszx5000 (talk) 14:06, 31 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Agree. They are listed in technology only because on level 5 they are considered as "web sites" rather than "companies". It seems we can't achieve a satisfying solution and we'll have to list some of them at Society and social sciences and some of them at Technology on level 5. Makkool (talk) 12:47, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Add to Crime
Scams involve over a trillion dollars each year, and are here to stay.


 * Support
 * 1) as nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 09:49, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:30, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 01:33, 10 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose don't think it stands out compared to other types of fraud at this level. Gizza  (talk) 23:23, 24 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Discuss
 * Is this sufficiently distinct from ? Aszx5000 (talk) 17:19, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Swap with
SP was unfairly removed for being “redundant” to the city, which is V3. SP has a higher population than any U.S. state by over 3 million, and if anything, MG is more redundant to. Vileplume ( talk ) 22:47, 2 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) As nom.  Vileplume  ( talk ) 22:47, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Changing my vote to support addition, oppose removal per TBR. Vileplume  🍋‍🟩 ( talk ) 22:51, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * 1) feminist🩸 (talk) 10:06, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Support adittion.  The  Blue  Rider  Postal horn icon.svg 11:00, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) Support addition Interstellarity (talk) 20:41, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose removal. No need to remove an important state demographic/economic-wise, there's room for both.  The  Blue  Rider  Postal horn icon.svg 11:00, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose removal Interstellarity (talk) 20:41, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Neutral


 * Discussion

Add and
Histories of two high population non-Western countries that would help reduce sysbias. Vileplume ( talk ) 23:09, 2 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) As nom.  Vileplume  ( talk ) 23:09, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Weak support Bangladesh. See my rationale in the Oppose section. feminist🩸 (talk) 06:07, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) Per nom. Interstellarity (talk) 10:58, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose DRC. Both countries are relatively recent social constructs (DRC 1960; Bangladesh 1971). While Bangladesh is perhaps a middle power with significant exports of clothing, the DRC has little influence internationally. feminist🩸 (talk) 05:51, 3 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Neutral


 * Discussion
 * 1) Any suggestions for compensating removals? (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 05:20, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Looking back at this, something like  is more vital than that of the DRC.  Vileplume  🍋‍🟩 ( talk ) 21:39, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Add and  (potential swap with  and /)
We got to have more rappers than just Tupac Shakur. Hip-hop just celebrated its 50th anniversary last year, and it’s one of the biggest genres in the world right now. It is certainly more popular than country or (European) folk, which we decided for each genre to list three of its musicians on here (four if you count Bob Dylan and to a much lesser extent Taylor Swift). I think we need at least two more hip-hop musicians on here.

Run-DMC is probably the easiest group we can promote. They are frequently called “the Beatles of hip-hop”, and for good reason. Besides being the first rappers to have their videos played on MTV and be featured on the cover of Rolling Stone, they are also the first hip-hop act to go gold, platinum, and multi-platinum. Not only that, they are arguably single-handily responsible for transforming hip-hop from old-school to new-school, with not just their music (rejecting the disco-driven party anthems in favor of hard-edge rhymes and drum machine-heavy beats) but even with the way they dress. (Before, rappers used to wear dramatic, flashy outfits when performing. Run-DMC eschewed that with, well, regular street clothes, including most famously Adidas shoes.)

Now, I would prefer if we just add these guys, but I understand if we need to swap someone out in order to include them. Baez is probably the least vital person in country and folk. For one, we have her former boyfriend, Bob Dylan. I know he’s listed under rock, but unlike Swift who has abandoned country completely, Dylan’s music by in large still has some folk elements to it. More importantly however, she is just largely not known as a songwriter. For folk musicians, especially contemporary ones, singing your own compositions is pretty big deal, and while she has written her own material, they are not on par with those of Woody Guthrie and Joni Mitchell.

I will admit that it took me quite a while to come up with another person to promote to Level 4. I ultimately decided to nominate Ye, but if someone thinks that there’s a better person to promote, feel free to speak up. West is usually held to be one of the hip hop musicians of all time. Maybe not as a rapper, but definitely as a producer. Six of his albums are on the latest version of Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Albums of All Time. Him beating 50 Cent on the album charts with his third album is usually held to bring end of gangsta rap-era of hip hop.

Again, I understand if we need to swap someone before we include him. Again, I don’t think country and folk needs that many people, and after Baez, Dolly Parton is probably the least vital. However, I am open to swapping West with Buddy Holly. We got plenty of rockers, and while his death is tragic, I don’t think his music or status as an icon is as revolutionary or as big as Nirvana.


 * Support
 * 1) As nom. Swap with Joan Baez and Dolly Parton respectively if necessary. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:44, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Add Run DMC. I was an occaisional college radio station DJ/contributor in these days. They are the group that commercialized rap with their first three albums that went gold, platinum and multiplatinum. Those three albums paved the way for "Licensed to Ill" and then the floodgates for Rap music.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:08, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) Support addition of Run-DMC with no other changes. Baez, Parton and Holly each independently warrant level 4. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 21:29, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * 4) Support additions and removal of Joan Baez. Hip-hop has been the world's most popular music genre for over a decade, while Baez has become a bit of a cultural totem, I'm afraid. An enduring figure, but her actual music (songs, albums) is rarely celebrated compared to other V4 pop artists. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 5) Support both addition (Kanye is weak support, just due to recentism + other comparable acts), removal of Baez as well. Holly and Parton are too vital. 49p (talk) 06:45, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 * 6) Support Run DMC and removal of Baez.  Vileplume  🍋‍🟩 ( talk ) 02:09, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * 7) After a bit of thinking, I support the addition of Run DMC and removal of Joan Baez, but I maintain my oppose towards Kanye West. λ  Negative  MP1  16:04, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * 8) Support removal of Joan Baez. --Thi (talk) 08:05, 27 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose addition of Kanye West as too recent. --Thi (talk) 14:05, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) I concur the comment below outside of voting that  is likely more worthy of V4 than Kanye West. λ  Negative  MP1  20:34, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose, bites off too much. Run-DMC maybe, but Kanye is better known for antics than rap. Debate over who is the most vital rapper is far above this. Disagree offhand with all proposed removals. Hyperbolick (talk) 22:04, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 * So you're content with just having 2Pac on here? Because right now he is the only rapper we have. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:55, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

The best selling hip hop artist is, who also ranks higher than Ye in the Billboard and Vibe's 50 Greatest Rappers of All Time. I think he is ahead of Ye. Run DMC is significant for different reasons though as early pioneers and it's harder to compare them with contemporary rappers. Gizza (talk) 23:56, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Discuss

Add
As the branch of Christianity with the most followers, it makes sense to include this. Interstellarity (talk) 13:45, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 13:45, 23 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Neutral


 * Discuss

Add to Business and economics
Key economic concept that we interact with very commonly (just promoted to V5). 75 interwikis.  starship .paint  (RUN) 01:52, 20 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) as nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 01:52, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 19:06, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) per nom. Interstellarity (talk) 00:26, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose
 * Discuss

Swap with
Canada is overrepresented in the country subdivision section for a county of 40 million. Ontario and Quebec are obviously vital, but the other two have insufficient populations and meh economies for V4. I also proposed the removal of Alberta above.

Ohio is a leading U.S. state historically, demographically, and economically. We list the top six in the latter two, and Ohio ranks seventh. Interwikis are 137-194, daily views are 3042-4099. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 ( talk ) 23:20, 1 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) As nom.  Vileplume  🍋‍🟩 ( talk ) 23:20, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) More than half of Canada's population lives in just two provinces (Ontario and Quebec). Given that Canada has way less people than the US has, it seems to make more sense to add more US states and less Canadian provinces. Interstellarity (talk) 20:47, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Neutral


 * Discussion

Add
Spain looks a bit underrepresented with only five cities compared to Poland and Ukraine getting six each. Bilbao has a metro area of over a million, more than 50% larger than and the largest city in Northern Spain, and particularly the. I'd also add, but France is already well-represented. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 ( talk ) 00:58, 7 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) As nom.  Vileplume  🍋‍🟩 ( talk ) 00:58, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Support --Thi (talk) 08:16, 7 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Bilbao is not a level 4 city, would rather add the historical .  The  Blue  Rider  Postal horn icon.svg 14:46, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * If Bilbao is not V4-worthy, neither is Salamanca. Bilbao has 121 interwikis compared to Salamanca's 100 and over triple Salamanca's pageviews. Salamanca is also much smaller than the other European cities excluding . Vileplume  🍋‍🟩 ( talk ) 15:19, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Not sure why people love to use these metrics so much; Salamanca might not be a big city population wise but it has a strong historical, cultural and theoligical influence, contrary with Bilbao.  The Blue  Rider  Postal horn icon.svg 15:35, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Neutral


 * Discussion

Add
Remains an inescapable concept in the way we talk about music.


 * Support
 * 1) As nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:57, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) λ  Negative  MP1  18:15, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) Interstellarity (talk) 00:26, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Remove
VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Everyday life is at 23 articles over quota. This is a niche sport more suitable for V5, I believe.  starship .paint  (RUN) 09:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) as nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 09:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Makkool (talk) 19:18, 7 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Unlike some of the other sports nominated, it IS contested in the Olympics  pbp  03:21, 28 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Discuss

Remove
VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Everyday life is at 23 articles over quota. This is a niche sport more suitable for V5, I believe.  starship .paint  (RUN) 09:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) as nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 09:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose  Carlwev  13:31, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2)   pbp  17:19, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Discuss

Remove
VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Everyday life is at 23 articles over quota. This is a niche sport more suitable for V5, I believe.  starship .paint  (RUN) 09:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) as nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 09:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose  Carlwev  12:49, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose --Thi (talk) 13:51, 12 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Discuss

Remove
VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Technology is at 44 articles over quota. This topic on a textile does not appear important enough at this level.  starship .paint  (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Support
 * 1) as nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:37, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 19:09, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * 4) Interstellarity (talk) 23:58, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Remove
VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Technology is at 44 articles over quota. This topic is on the science of, so there should be considerable overlap with that. The Agronomy article is sparse, and so is agricultural science.  starship .paint  (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) as nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Interstellarity (talk) 00:36, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose
 * 1) The science of a level 2 topic is important enough to be at level 4.  The  Blue  Rider  Postal horn icon.svg 18:12, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Discuss

Remove
VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Technology is at 44 articles over quota. This is a sparse article that does not appear important enough at this level. Compare with.  starship .paint  (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) as nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 13:48, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:17, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 4) Interstellarity (talk) 23:59, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Remove
VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Technology is at 44 articles over quota. This is the third largest hydroelectric dam in the world, which produces the second most hydroelectric energy, but it has been eclipsed in both regards by the.  starship .paint  (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) as nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 13:44, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose
 * 1) It got named as one of the seven modern wonders of the world. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:17, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * - That was in 1995, in a publication that simultaneously named the 7 Wonders of the Future, which lists ... the, which according to this publication will be outmuscling Itaipu by 50%.  starship .paint  (RUN) 08:41, 18 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Discuss

Remove
VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Technology is at 44 articles over quota, so we've got to take action. This was big in its heyday in the 1930s, but seems to have been eclipsed in all regards today. Not sure if it would be listed if it was not American.  starship .paint  (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) as nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Per nom, American bias. The Itaipu Dam, also proposed for removal, is bigger and better and costlier. The role history and iconicness has to play here is IMO not massive – dams are listed primarily for technological reasons.  J  947  ‡ edits 05:58, 21 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Major tourist attraction. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:21, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Regularly listed as the most iconic dam in history, E.g. here, here. Aszx5000 (talk) 17:25, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * - your links do not back up most iconic dam in history, Guardian just says and Interesting Engineering says .  starship  .paint  (RUN) 03:26, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Doesn't the Interesting Engineering say Hoover Dam in the USA is probably one of the most iconic of all dams in it header? thanks. Aszx5000 (talk) 08:26, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * - it absolutely does say that, but that's a double qualifier, and, not the most iconic dam in history. It's like CNN saying , but me claiming Elizabeth was the most photographed woman in history.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 15:21, 22 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Discuss

Remove
VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Technology is at 44 articles over quota, so we've got to take action. The addition of this dialysis article could have been a mistake, perhaps the intended target was. Either way this should be removed.  starship .paint  (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) as nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Interstellarity (talk) 00:37, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discuss
 * If anyone were to click the "5" button, you'll see that this is listed under Medical technology. There's obviously been a mistake...  starship .paint  (RUN) 15:23, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Remove
VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Society and social sciences	is at 27 articles over quota, so we've got to take action. This is a sparse article on a subset of.  starship .paint  (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1) as nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) To get to quota. Interstellarity (talk) 00:37, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Remove
VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Physical sciences is at 1 article over quota. This is a sparse article on rocks that seems more suitable for V5. We already list.  starship .paint  (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) as nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2)  J  947  ‡ edits 05:52, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 3)  pbp  03:24, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 4) Interstellarity (talk) 00:27, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Move to the Sunni section
Setting aside on whether we should place the Sufis in their own separate section, why is he not under the Sunni section? Wahhabism is very strictly a Sunni thing.


 * Support
 * 1) SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:03, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 12:43, 12 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

What makes a US President vital?
I feel like we list a bunch of US presidents at this level. I’m sure that is not surprising as the US has been a dominant world power for decades. Some presidents are obviously vital like Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Both Roosevelts, Eisenhower, and Reagan as their legacies seemed to have been settled at this point. We also list three consecutive recent presidents, Bush, Obama, and Trump so I don’t know if recentism is an issue here. I know scholarly rankings don’t give a complete answer as to what makes a president vital as Trump, Nixon, Bush, and Jackson are listed that had far from stellar terms as president. I would like to gather input from other editors as to what makes a president vital. Interstellarity (talk) 00:21, 13 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Trump was America's The Emperor's New Clothes moment, notable for how terrible he was. Obama represented the rise of African Americans through society. Bush responded to 9/11 with two wars.  starship .paint  (RUN) 03:39, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Starship.paint: Can you explain the analogy of Trump as America's The Emperor's New Clothes moment? I understand the significance of Obama and Bush, but I was hoping that you could delve deeper into the meaning of this phrase. Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * - while some American presidents have done terrible things, I believe they retained some semblance of dignity. Trump had none of that. That such a person became president (and even continues to lead a major political party) reflects on the American electorate as well. Simply put, Trump turned America into a laughingstock. He represents the decay of America. Apologies for the bluntness.  starship .paint  (RUN) 13:34, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Starship.paint: No worries, I understand now. He represented a turning point in America. He is no Jimmy Carter, who wasn’t a good president, but an exceptional human being. Trump was one who defied traditional norms. Although he remains popular with many in America despite his flaws, he is one of those people who was unpopular with a majority of Americans since he was a terrible president according to historians and possibly a terrible human being. I hope I provided a good analysis on him which probably represents why he is vital. Interstellarity (talk) 14:07, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * - that's adequate reasoning. More points are the cult of personality, the overwhelming amount of untruths, and despite the lack of much achievements, the power to cause this.  starship .paint  (RUN) 14:22, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

First off, why only question the vitality of U.S. presidents? Why not also question American activists in the same breadth? Or politicians from other countries? Yes, we have 19 U.S. presidents, plus 2 Native American chiefs and 7 Americans who weren't president (two, J. Edgar Hoover and John Marshall, are listed in an area other than politicians at VA5). This group of 28 leaders has had considerably more scrutiny than any part of the VA4 of comparable size; subjecting the entire people list to such scrutiny would have resulted in hundreds of discussions. There are a few American leaders I question the vitality of; I even nominated JFK and Bush 43 for removal from the list but lost those votes. For most of the rest of them, I can and have given individual rationales. I can also give rationales for a few gentlemen (such as John Quincy Adams), who are NOT listed.

Of 28 American politicians, half served in government later than 1900, which is around when the United States became a world power. Around half of those (depending where you classify J. Edgar Hoover) served during the Cold War era between 1945 and 1991. Of the 14 before 1900, almost half were the “Founding Fathers” that fought the Revolution, created the country’s founding documents, and served in the first 28 years of the presidency. The most poorly-represented eras in American history are the post-bellum “Gilded Age” era and the colonial era, the former because it was an era of political paralysis and the latter because the United States was sparsely populated by white man and was ruled by European nations. There’s some concern about having three 21st century presidents, but that is balanced out by Bush 41, Clinton and Biden NOT being on VA4 (although Biden should get a VA4 discussion if he's re-elected).

There are several representatives of both the Democratic and Republican Parties, as well as representatives of the Federalist, Democratic-Republican and Whig Parties. The U.S. is a democracy without houses or dynasties…but don’t tell that to the Adams, Roosevelt, Kennedy and Bush families, all of whom are represented at VA4.

There is no single criteria for an American politician to be listed at VA4, nor should there be. However, here are some things:

 pbp 23:09, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Being President, or an officer, in a war seems to have a strong correlation with making VA4. We have soldiers or presidents from the American Revolution (Washington), War of 1812 (Madison, Jackson), Seminole Wars (Jackson), Mexican-American War (Polk), American Civil War (Lincoln), Spanish-American War (Teddy Roosevelt), World War I (Wilson), World War II (FDR, Truman, Eisenhower), Cold War (Truman, Eisenhower, JFK, LBJ, Nixon, Reagan), Korean War (Truman), Vietnam War (LBJ, Nixon), and War on Terror (Bush 43)
 * Other presidents made major contributions in the domestic sphere: Jefferson with the Louisiana Purchase, Teddy Roosevelt with the Square Deal, FDR with the New Deal, Truman with the Fair Deal, Eisenhower with 1950s prosperity, LBJ with Civil Rights and the Great Society, Obama with Obamacare...
 * As noted, some presidents are on there for being exceedingly bad or harmful. Nixon is on there for bombing the heck out of Vietnam and Cambodia, and for Watergate which rendered the American public permanently cynical.  Bush 43 is on for a couple of questionable wars beginning under his administration.  Jackson is on there for the Bank War and Indian Removal.   Many Americans classify Reagan in this category as well, though this is balanced out by many others classifying Reagan as a near-great President
 * Some of the people on VA4 are there by virtue of significant firsts
 * Longevity seems to have some importance, but is not the only factor: 11 of the 14 Presidents who served at least two terms are on the list (Monroe, Cleveland and Clinton are not). 5 of the 7 presidents who served one term and part of another are on the list (Coolidge and McKinley are not).  JFK is the only president who didn’t serve for four years, although we do have non-Presidential politicians who served 0 years as President (though each of them had political careers lasting more than 4 years).   pbp  01:37, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * According to Historical_rankings_of_presidents_of_the_United_States, James Monroe is the only president who has been ranked in the Top 10 since 2010 (there have been 10 rankings since 2010) to not be listed.
 * Each of the presidents listed (and Ben Franklin) have at least 100 interwikis. The four most recent presidents listed have over 200
 * Every VA4-level president but James Madison and James K. Polk has at least 100,000 pageviews in the last 30 days. 13 VA4 presidents, Franklin and Hamilton have at least 200,000. Franklin, JFK and the Large Orange Dude get at least half a million
 * just wondering if you read my comments  pbp 19:19, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Purplebackpack89: Yes, I did read your comments. Interstellarity (talk) 20:35, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Add
Recently added at VA5, worth discussion here I reckon.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom.  J  947  ‡ edits 02:50, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Interstellarity (talk) 00:38, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discussion
 * - can you propose to remove something? We are already over quota. I firmly believe that nominators and supporters should do the work to keep us within the quota, instead of having other editors have to put in the effort to find more articles to remove.  starship .paint  (RUN) 07:52, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Regarding
Why isn't he under writers? SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:34, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * - just go ahead and shift him.  starship .paint  (RUN) 07:46, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Are you sure? I just want to know what's the rationale of him being under Hindu figures and not writers. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:20, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * the first author in all history to bring himself into his own composition.  starship .paint  (RUN) 12:19, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm just going to make this topic a move discussion. Other than moving people who are placed in the wrong time period, I'm not comfortable messing with the level 4 and higher pages. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:43, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Move Valmiki to writers
OK, this is now officially a move discussion. Other than the being an important Hindu text, there doesn't seem to be any rationale for why he's under religious figures and not writers.


 * Support
 * 1) SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:43, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Makkool (talk) 16:19, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Remove
Much fewer interwikis than all the other engineering articles listed there (this has 20, the second lowest has 37, the highest has 101). We're over quota in total V4 and V4 Technology.  starship .paint  (RUN) 08:28, 15 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) as nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 08:28, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Support per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 17:15, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:33, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 4) Interstellarity (talk) 00:27, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discuss


 * I wonder if should be swapped in here? Aszx5000 (talk) 20:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Add
The precursor to that was used for centuries, is still used by the Jewish, and has a lot of pop culture influence.


 * Support
 * 1) As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:15, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Interstellarity (talk) 00:28, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * 3)  Vileplume  🍋‍🟩 ( talk ) 15:38, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Neutral


 * Discuss

Reshuffle some things
So I did a little shuffling in the level 5 philosophy and religion page, and I would like to apply it here. I would also like to move some stuff in the Arts page.

Move to mythology: general
The concept itself should be placed here. Let's reserve the mythological creatures section for specific beasts.


 * Support
 * 1) SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:04, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Aszx5000 (talk) 13:47, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) Makkool (talk) 16:07, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 4) per nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 02:38, 30 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Move to mythology: general
Same thing with this one. While this and the next proposal will leave the mythological places section with only Atlantis and El Dorado, I still think that section should just be reserved for actual places.


 * Support
 * 1) SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:04, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Aszx5000 (talk) 13:47, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) Makkool (talk) 16:07, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 4) --Thi (talk) 07:58, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 5) per nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 02:38, 30 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Place under  (in Arts:Literature:Basics)
I placed it under mythology: general for now in the Level 5 page, but this is more of a fictional setting type of thing. (Or possibly a philosophical type of thing.)


 * Support
 * 1) SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:04, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Aszx5000 (talk) 13:47, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) Makkool (talk) 16:07, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 4) --Thi (talk) 07:59, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 5) per nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 02:38, 30 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Move and  to specific works of fiction
These articles are entirely written to be about the short stories, not the titular characters.


 * Support
 * 1) SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:04, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 01:58, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) Aszx5000 (talk) 13:47, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 4) Makkool (talk) 16:07, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 5) per nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 02:38, 30 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Place under  (in Literature:Basics)
General concept article. Everything else besides this and the two articles I mentioned are specific characters.


 * Support
 * 1) SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:04, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Aszx5000 (talk) 13:47, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) Makkool (talk) 16:07, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 4) per nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 02:38, 30 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Move and  to legendary creatures (under  and  respectively)
The names "Devil" and "Satan" has frequently been used interchangeably to describe the same entity, while tradition holds Lilith to be the first female demon.


 * Support
 * 1) SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:15, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) per nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 02:38, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) Makkool (talk) 06:49, 29 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Place under fairies
I have seen a lot of people consider the leprechaun as some type of fairy.


 * Support
 * 1) SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:02, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) per nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 02:38, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) Makkool (talk) 06:49, 29 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Propose quota change: Technology +20, Biological and health sciences -20
Vital articles/Level/4/Biology and health sciences is at 1481/1500. I propose to lower the quota to 1480. Vital articles/Level/4/Technology is at 744/700. I propose to increase the quota to 720. I've looked through the whole list and I am not sure what else to remove from Technology, if you oppose this, please help remove something.  starship .paint  (RUN) 09:14, 18 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) per nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 09:14, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Biology also needs a quota reduction at V5 to a much greater extent.  Vileplume  🍋‍🟩 ( talk ) 12:14, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) Makes sense. Aszx5000 (talk) 13:46, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 4) Makkool (talk) 06:48, 29 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss
 * Should we also reduce ~20 quota each for Arts and Philosophy and increase quota for Everyday Life and Society? Vileplume  🍋‍🟩 ( talk ) 12:30, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
 * - I haven’t comprehensively looked through both everyday life and society to conclude that everything there is indeed (on the surface) vital. Everyday life will be easier to do since it’s half the size of society. Essentially, we could possibly trim more from those categories.  starship .paint  (RUN) 01:17, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Add
I think is at least Level 4. It is the head topic for the established Level 4 sub-topics of and of, as well as other Level 5s (e.g. ).  It also includes the Olympic sport of climbing, which is Competition climbing, and should itself be at VA 5 (there are other climbing sub-topics which should also be VA 5). Climbing is equivalent to other Level 3 R&E topics such as. I think Climbing should ultimately be Level 3 but it must get to Level 4 first. Aszx5000 (talk) 16:10, 19 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 16:10, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2)  Vileplume  🍋‍🟩 ( talk ) 14:53, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) per nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 14:36, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 4) per nom. Interstellarity (talk) 19:09, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * 5) I agree that this should probably be Level 3. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:30, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Neutral


 * Discussion

Remove
Smilodon isn't really more taxonomically significant compared to other machairodontines like Machairodus which has an older taxonomic history and is the defining type genus. While it may be the most culturally significant one based on stereotypical machairodontine designs, there's not much strong indication that people are necessarily familiar with the specific genus. Level 5 should suit it fine. PrimalMustelid (talk) 17:02, 19 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) per nom. PrimalMustelid (talk) 17:02, 19 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) per |Machairodontinae|Smilodon|Felidae|Canidae|Carnivora|Mustelidae|Procyonidae all recorded pageviews, Smilodon is at over 1,467 per day, Machairodus is at 72 per day, and Machairodontinae is at 181 per day. Smilidon is close to  at 1,527 per day and above  at 1,335 per day.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 14:24, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * We don't list all individual pages that amount to over 1,000 views a day to level 4, though. Smilodon has a weaker paleontological influence unlike say Mammuthus which not only is culturally iconic but has over 3 centuries of taxonomic importance that has been recognized by many paleontological historians. PrimalMustelid (talk) 14:32, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Mammuthus has even fewer views (1,337 per day) than Smilodon. I interpret this that people are actually familiar with the specific genus Smilodon. Machairodus may have been discovered 15 years earlier but is basically culturally irrelevant today. I see both Mammuthus and Smilodon as viable representatives of Pleistocene megafauna.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 14:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * If we're talking about Neogene-Quaternary faunas, I can name plenty of genera that have been credited with more paleontological significance while having strong cultural influences, and I wouldn't place too much weight on Wikipedia pageviews. The issue with Smilodon here is that even if it is the most iconic machairodontine, it doesn't necessarily stray too far from other machairodontines, either; rather Smilodon and other machairodontines are represented as "saber-tooth cat" archetypes that do not closely align with any specific genus. This is unlike specific dinosaur genera that are clearly intended to be represented individually in fictional works. Or well, mammoths, which are clearly well-represented even if primarily known by the woolly mammoth. There's nothing wrong with it being a level 5 vital article at all, it's still on par with plenty of important genera like Palaeotherium, Coryphodon, Deinotherium, Hipparion, Mammut, Megaloceros, Megatherium, and such. PrimalMustelid (talk) 16:18, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The alternative is to replace Smilodon with the Machairodontinae as a compromise, but I'm not particularly confident over that idea. PrimalMustelid (talk) 16:21, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * |Palaeotherium|Coryphodon|Deinotherium|Hipparion|Mastodon|Megaloceros|Megatherium|Machairodontinae Clearly not on par for most of them.  starship .paint  (RUN) 03:06, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 1) Well, it only gets more views because it is a carnivore. Nevertheless, saber-toothed tigers are culturally and paleontologically relevant.  The  Blue  Rider  Postal horn icon.svg 16:49, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * If we are willing to define the "saber-tooth cats" as a group as "vital," we can perhaps consider if we should swap out Smilodon with the Machairodontinae. PrimalMustelid (talk) 18:18, 20 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Discuss

Add or
We don't include any people known for in VA4, but we do have two for  so I believe we should have at least one or two. The easiest suggestion is Tony Hawk or Rodney Mullen. Rodney Mullen is known as "the godfather of skateboarding." He created multiple skateboarding tricks, such as the flatground ollie, kickflip, heelflip, etc. (which are considered the basis of skateboarding) Tony Hawk is much more known for his work in the media. He performed the first ever "900," (where many people doubted the possibility of it happening) had a popular game series of his own name, and pioneered vertical skateboarding. Hawk is arguably the most known figure in skateboarding, but Mullen is possibly the most influential in skateboarding. I'm fine with adding either or both.


 * Support
 * 1) per nom49p (talk) 00:31, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Tony-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:13, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose
 * 1) The speed skaters are obscure figures, leagues below footballers we don't list and should be removed.  Vileplume  🍋‍🟩 ( talk ) 01:30, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose per above. --Thi (talk) 08:00, 22 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Discuss

Add
Per Landline discussion. Interstellarity (talk) 12:04, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 12:04, 23 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Neutral


 * Discussion

Add
I feel this is closer to level 3 than to level 5 since it is more common these days. I think level 4 is sufficient for this article. Interstellarity (talk) 16:50, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 16:50, 30 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Sigh, sad oppose from someone who identifies with a nonbinary gender. I would add both  and  first.  Vileplume  🍋‍🟩 ( talk ) 23:31, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Closer to level 3? A sub-type of a level 5 article? No way; strong oppose.  The  Blue  Rider  Postal horn icon.svg 14:58, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Neutral


 * Discussion

No television series listings?
Reading this list (specifically Vital articles/Level/4/Arts) made me notice that we list no examples of television series at V4. I feel that, if we list any video game related subjects here and around 33 films, there's probably room for a few TV series, even more so since Arts is technically 25 articles under its quota. Is there a specific reason why none are listed? λ Negative  MP1  23:09, 30 May 2024 (UTC)


 * We do have a few, under Society/Mass media. Vileplume  🍋‍🟩 ( talk ) 23:27, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Wasn't where I expected them to be, my bad. λ Negative  MP1  23:40, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * An unintuitive inconsistency, I'd rather have broadcast fiction under Arts too.-- Laukku  TheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 06:35, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah I agree. With some of the listings, putting individual shows under that might make sense (ex. ) but the vast majority as well as the category itself do not. Should we consider a wider discussion to move them over to Arts? Would also redistribute items from an over-quota area to an under-quota area. λ Negative  MP1  18:02, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Add
Should be on the same level as Public transport which is an important type of transit. Interstellarity (talk) 13:58, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 13:58, 1 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) The concept itself isn't that important and that shows in the interwikis;  should already cover it.  The  Blue  Rider  Postal horn icon.svg 14:47, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Neutral


 * Discussion

Swap and  with
We don't list or  when we list. I feel it would make sense to swap these two out. I might also consider removing either or both  and. Interstellarity (talk) 21:28, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 21:28, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Support --Thi (talk) 08:32, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) Support per nom.  J  947  ‡ edits 22:19, 19 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose most societies have stronger gender differences and there are vast differences is the role of husbands and wives. Spouse is just a boring legal term, which is why the articles is much shorter in length. There isn't much to talk about spouses which isn't in the marriage article itself. Gizza  (talk) 00:41, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @DaGizza: Interesting you oppose this nomination. I would also like to point that we list Parent as well as Father and Mother. Would you consider supporting removing Parent if that were nominated? I would feel inclined that you would oppose removing father and mother, so I'm interested in your thoughts on whether you support the removal of parent. Interstellarity (talk) 01:01, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose, I do think Gizza has a point that around the world, the roles/concept of Husband and Wife are still at Level 4 in importance, so they should remain for now.  Perhaps we should add Spouse in the same way/fmt that we have Parent and Father/Mother? They seem like an equivalent situation. Aszx5000 (talk) 10:03, 23 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Neutral


 * Discussion

Add
Related discussion: Wikipedia_talk:Vital_articles/Level/5/Society

I am nominating this here although it isn't quite level 5 yet and will very likely be so once the discussion closes. There was also support to add this article to level 4 in that discussion and I think starting this discussion now is probably sufficient. Interstellarity (talk) 22:36, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 22:36, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) As someone who stated it should be V4 over in the V5 discussion. λ  Negative  MP1  16:06, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) Support per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 12:32, 18 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Per WP:VANOSKIP, this should be added for Level 5 first, and then considered after. Aszx5000 (talk) 10:08, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Aszx5000: This article is now level 5, would you consider switching to support now that this article is level 5? Interstellarity (talk) 12:29, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Supported that now Interstellarity. thanks for that. Aszx5000 (talk) 12:32, 18 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Neutral


 * Discussion

Remove Sublimation (phase transition)
We don't list the opposite which is Deposition (phase transition) so it would probably make sense to remove at this level. Interstellarity (talk) 22:29, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 22:29, 12 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Neutral


 * Discussion

Remove
The article was merged into, which has no interwikis. The content on "domestic short-haired cat" is less than 260 words.  starship .paint  (RUN) 02:31, 14 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) as nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 02:31, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Support domestic pet breeds are overrepresented at this level. Gizza  (talk) 00:43, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk)
 * 4) Without a doubt. Interstellarity (talk) 18:39, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discuss
 * Can we WP:BOLDly swap with Moggy? Vileplume  🍋‍🟩 ( talk ) 01:06, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
 * - why should we? We don't list (21 interwikis) at V4.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 15:35, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Domestic short hair cat apparently has 14 interwikis, and Moggy was the article it was merged into. Have we done the same with other articles in the past, or have we removed them? I do agree that this is only a V5 concept, though. Vileplume  🍋‍🟩 ( talk ) 01:53, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Remove
It is one type of, which is already V4.  starship .paint  (RUN) 02:32, 14 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) as nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 02:32, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Per Nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 22:02, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) per nom. Interstellarity (talk) 18:39, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Swap for
This is an important state we don't list. It is higher in population and is similar in GDP to other states in India. Interstellarity (talk) 22:29, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 22:29, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Support addition. On the topic of country subdivisions, there are open discussions about adding São Paulo or swapping with Minas Gerais, swapping British Columbia with Ohio (I can name at least half a dozen US states that aren't listed but deserve to be here more than BC), and your proposal to remove Northern Ireland and Wales (which has no chance of passing, but I'd still support a swap between Cardiff or Belfast and Bristol).  Vileplume  🍋‍🟩 ( talk ) 02:09, 18 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Neutral


 * Discussion

Proposal: Allow only either additions or removals until we reach quota on level 4. After that, only swaps would be allowed.
There seems to be an issue with trying to reach quota. I was figuring that the way to solve this is to only allow additions if we are under quota and removals if we are over quota so that we can reach a reasonable compromise on what articles we can add and remove. Interstellarity (talk) 22:52, 16 June 2024 (UTC)


 * As a permanent rule, it is too unflexible and impractical, but at some point we can start a campaign to meet the quotas. --Thi (talk) 09:18, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Add Behavior
I know we list Human behavior at L3, I think adding this article to level 4 would be helpful since it is important to cover the behavior of other organisms. Interstellarity (talk) 23:03, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 23:03, 16 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Neutral


 * Discussion

Regarding the domestic short-haired cat
Does anyone know how to move interwikis? Someone just did a bold merge with both domestic short-haired cat and domestic long-haired cat to moggy, and now all the original interwikis for both pages are sitting at redirect pages. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:26, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I've merged items in Wikidata before, but I think in this case it should stay as it is until every language version does the same merge. We can't move all the interwikis to the same item as long as some Wikis have separate articles on short-haired and long-haired house cats. All we could do now is move all the interwikis that are about house cats in general to moggy. Makkool (talk) 17:17, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Remove
I don't think it makes sense to list cousin when we don't list or. Interstellarity (talk) 00:58, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 00:58, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 09:39, 23 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Neutral


 * Discussion


 * Thinking about this again, I think we should add and . These are some of the most important relationships/concepts in any human's life, no matter where they are in the world.  They should be at Level 4 (there is plenty of stuff in Level 4 that would rank well behind these two concepts in importance to a given human). Aszx5000 (talk) 10:53, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Remove
We are over quota in Level 4 and is nowhere near as important as other computer topics at this level. Given the rise of flash memory chips and instantaneous-booting, I am not sure that this is even a level 5 topic. Aszx5000 (talk) 09:38, 23 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) As nom. Aszx5000 (talk)
 * 2) Support --Thi (talk) 13:15, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) Interstellarity (talk) 00:24, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * 4) As nom, but I still think this should be a VA, just at level 5. Mathwriter2718 (talk) 12:05, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * 5) per nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 03:33, 21 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Add Uncle, Aunt, and Niece and nephew
These terms are important relatives of the family. They are a big part of many families. Interstellarity (talk) 21:19, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 21:19, 23 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Neutral


 * Discussion

Add Son and Daughter
The opposite of Father and Mother, these should be listed since these are part of almost every family. Interstellarity (talk) 21:21, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 21:21, 23 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Neutral


 * Discussion

Add Brother and Sister
Similar to how we list Father and Mother, I see no issue with listing these two terms. Interstellarity (talk) 21:27, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 21:27, 23 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Neutral


 * Discussion

Add Anarchy
We list anarchism, but not this article. Interstellarity (talk) 22:04, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 22:04, 23 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Conditional oppose. I will note that of the major forms of governance, comes alongside,  and . At their current levels, I can't support anarchy being moved up to VA4 while autocracy remains at VA5. I'm saying this as someone working on improving the anarchy article. If autocracy is also moved to VA4, I'll consider supporting. --Grnrchst (talk) 12:04, 25 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Neutral


 * Discussion

Add and
We list the at this level, so it make sense to add the two major political parties in the US at this level. Interstellarity (talk) 22:17, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 22:17, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Support both  Vileplume  🍋‍🟩 ( talk ) 01:51, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Why one but not the other? The Democratic Party is older, but only by what?  20-30 years?  pbp  16:15, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * At the time, I kinda felt the same way as Aszx5000; I just wasn't sure how many major parties we needed at V4, since we only have 20 or so at V5. Vileplume  🍋‍🟩 ( talk ) 21:28, 8 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Neutral


 * Discussion


 * I think this is a worthy consideration, but once we go down the road of adding major parties, where will it stop? There are at least 20 more major political parties that could be included? We would almost need to drop another section to make room for them. However, I don't see why the would be here and not the Democrats and Republicans. Bit of a conundrum? Aszx5000 (talk) 17:11, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I think the requirement for a political party to reach VA4 should be major influence both within and outside of their home country. The CCP has that in my opinion. Is the same true for the Democratic and Republican parties? QuicoleJR (talk) 21:37, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Add Autocracy
Per suggestion in Anarchy discussion. Interstellarity (talk) 19:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 19:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Neutral


 * Discussion

Add Suicide prevention
A common concept which is a subtopic of suicide. Interstellarity (talk) 00:23, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 00:23, 27 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Neutral


 * Discussion

Add Third gender
May be a better addition than nonbinary. Interstellarity (talk) 00:40, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 00:40, 27 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Neutral


 * Discussion

Move from History to Geography
Yes, Tyre is a historical city and appears in ancient history. It is one of the oldest continously inhabited cities, but it is continously inhabited, even today. We do list other ancient cities like and  in the Geography section, so I can't see why we shouldn't list Tyre there as well.


 * Support
 * 1) per nom. Makkool (talk) 05:53, 27 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Neutral


 * Discuss

Add Scandal
Just added to L5, might be worthy of L4. Interstellarity (talk) 20:00, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 20:00, 30 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Neutral


 * Discussion

Add
The major war of the last twenty years, it have a major impact on the global economy.
 * Support
 * 1) As nom--Hoben7599 (talk) 14:15, 2 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Neutral


 * Discussion
 * - we are over quota in V4. Would you like to support some removal proposals to make space? Or propose something to remove?  starship .paint  (RUN) 09:30, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Add Invention
We use these everyday. Interstellarity (talk) 15:45, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 15:45, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Hoben7599 (talk) 15:20, 15 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Neutral


 * Discussion

Add Giza pyramid complex
We list Great Pyramid of Giza at level 3, so I think it makes sense to list this at level 4. Interstellarity (talk) 12:04, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 12:04, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Hoben7599 (talk) 15:20, 15 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Both Great Pyramid of Giza and Great Sphinx of Giza are listed at this level. Case for pyramid and other specific structures at level 3 is not very strong. --Thi (talk) 16:10, 15 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Discussion

Add and  (Potential swap with
Yes, the last thing we need is more rockers, but as you can see through this link, we don't have anyone from the alternative or punk scene. To me, this is a glaring omission, especially when it comes to alternative rock which has arguably been the main form of rock since it broke through. And no, the Velvet Underground does not count for either subgenre; alternative deserves to have someone whose music was made after the initial punk wave, while your average person is probably more likely to categorize VU as art/experimental rock than proto-punk.

For alternative, I'm just going to go with the most obvious candidate. Although R.E.M. were technically the one who demonstrated the commercial viability of alternative rock with Out of Time (they're also usually held to be one of the first alt rock band), most people consider to be thing that truly pushed alternative into the mainstream. There's also the whole "voice of the generation" personality cult that surrounds.

For punk, I'm not going to lie; it is kind of weird to nominate a band that's usually held to only have one album. But these guys played a huge rule in both spearheading the British punk scene and in shaping punk fashion. They also possess a notoriety that none of the other punk rockers really have.


 * Support
 * 1) Support both. Swap with VU if necessary. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:03, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Support addition of Nirvana. Relevant in contemporary culture. Swap with The Velvet Underground is also possible. --Thi (talk) 11:45, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) Support swap of for, as a clear improvement. Aszx5000 (talk) 16:15, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * 4) Swap VU for Nirvana  Vileplume  🍋‍🟩 ( talk ) 02:33, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discuss
 * 1)  V4 is drastically over quota, and this proposal even if fully enacted would bring the count up by one. Is there one more artist/band even outside of this genre that you would want to propose the removal of? λ  Negative  MP1  02:25, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I've already made it clear that I'm content with swapping Joan Baez, Dolly Parton and/or Buddy Holly out for Run-DMC and Kanye West, but other than Baez no one has shown any interest in removing them. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:16, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Move from History to Geography
The fertile crescent in the Near East is more a region that's relevant in geography even today, rather than a historical concept that happened in the past. The article even talks about biodiversity and climate before its history. So I'm proposing moving it away from Ancient History to Regions and country subdivisions.


 * Support
 * 1) As nom. Makkool (talk) 00:07, 13 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Add Multimedia
This encompasses all forms of media we use for communication. Interstellarity (talk) 23:03, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 23:03, 15 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Neutral


 * Discussion

Swap: add, remove
The territory is more important than its primary settlement.


 * Support
 * 1) As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 17:02, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Support --Thi (talk) 18:14, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 06:22, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * 4) per nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 09:30, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * 5) I think that  has overtaken in terms of notability and vitality. Aszx5000 (talk) 10:20, 18 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Neutral
 * 1) Neutral, leaning support per Carlwev.  Vileplume  🍋‍🟩 ( talk ) 02:31, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

The city is thousands of years old, the territory only came into in the 1940s. Gaza Strip is of similar importance as West Bank should we include one without the other? Should we have both or neither? And why? Was discused 11 years ago when Gaza was added. <b style="color:yellowgreen;background:darkgreen;font-family:georgia;"> Carl</b><b style="color:darkgreen;background:yellowgreen;font-family:georgia;">wev </b> 09:20, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Discuss

Transcluding the level 4 pages on the front page of the main level 4 page
I would like to know if you would be open to the idea of transcluding the level 4 subpages so that they all appear on one page similar to the expanded list of the List of articles every Wikipedia should have. I understand that a concern for this would be slow loading times, but we can easily solve this by creating a subpage that shows all the subpages. What do you think? Interstellarity (talk) 01:09, 19 July 2024 (UTC)