Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/4/Archive 10

Page archived Carlwev (talk) 03:02, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

=People=

Remove John Belushi
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom p  b  p  02:30, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Carlwev (talk) 12:59, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:20, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support - per DL in the discussion below.  Jus  da  fax   22:17, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. --Igrek (talk) 19:13, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * I've struggled with this one because Belushi was an icon to my generation of college students because of his work on Saturday Night Live and his role in Animal House. Putting that aside, Belushi died young and left a relatively small body of meaningful comedy work.  Does he deserve to be on a list with Lucille Ball, Jack Benny, Lenny Bruce and the Marx Brothers?  Sorry, but I don't think his body of work justifies it, especially as we work to remove the other marginal examples.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:20, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Remove Chevy Chase
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support. Popular, but not even close to being one of the all-time great American comedians.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 06:13, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Carlwev (talk) 08:41, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Probably one of the 50-60 greatest comedians of all time. 25 comedians is the number we need, in my mind  p  b  p  15:00, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support - OK, I'm in. This was a close one, per 'Caddyshack' and the first year of SNL. But yeah. Jus  da  fax   02:17, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. --Igrek (talk) 19:13, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 6) Support. --Melody Lavender (talk) 07:33, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Remove Billy Crystal
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support. Reasonably popular, but not even close to being one of the all-time great American comedians.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 06:13, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Carlwev (talk) 08:41, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support p  b  p  15:05, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support - Tough one, as Crystal is not only a comic and movie star but highly notable as an awards host. In the end I'll go with consensus, since we gotta trim. Jus  da  fax   21:52, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. --Igrek (talk) 19:13, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 6) Support. --Melody Lavender (talk) 07:32, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Remove Larry David
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support. Not even close to being one of the all-time American comedians.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 06:13, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Carlwev (talk) 08:41, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support p  b  p  15:05, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support - Agree with DL. Jus  da  fax   08:14, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. --Igrek (talk) 11:55, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Remove Lorne Michaels
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support. Michaels is a television producer, not a comedian.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 06:13, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Carlwev (talk) 08:41, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support p  b  p  15:05, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support. --Igrek (talk) 19:13, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. --Melody Lavender (talk) 12:53, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Remove Lily Tomlin
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support. Not even close to being one of the all-time American comedians.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 06:13, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Carlwev (talk) 08:41, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support - A bit of a struggle but in the end I agree she doesn't make the cut, with key word being "vital." Jus  da  fax   09:07, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support. --Igrek (talk) 19:13, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. --Melody Lavender (talk) 07:29, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Remove Betty White
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support. Not even close to being one of the all-time American comedians.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 06:13, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Carlwev (talk) 08:41, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support  STATic  message me!  16:34, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support - Another tough call: talk about a long, distinguished and award-winning career! But again, under the conditions of needing to trim, as I understand them, I will go along with emerging consensus. Sorry Betty. Jus  da  fax   20:21, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) support blanche and Sophia were funnier on the golden girls.--ColonelHenry (talk) 05:03, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Inventors
See Vital articles/Expanded/People for complete list of related topics.

Swap: Add Samuel Morse, Remove Alexander von Humboldt (now listed twice)
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support: as nom  p  b  p  23:22, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support. Swap Morse for the redundant Humboldt listing.  No-brainer.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:55, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support - Morse is important, easy choice if other guy is listed twice Carlwev (talk) 18:54, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support --ColonelHenry (talk) 01:05, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support - Agree that if Humboldt is on the list twice, one has to go, and Morse needs to come aboard. Swap. Jus  da  fax   02:22, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 6) Support. --Melody Lavender (talk) 07:31, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Discussion
Seriously, this list is so recentist it doesn't have the inventor of the telegraph? Yeah, I know nobody uses telegraphs anymore, but it was the first device of what comes to be known as telecommunications. If you want to pair this with a deletion (which I don't, really, inventors is small compared to, say, actors; more actors than inventors, REALLY?), my vote would be for William Shockley. Shockley was one of two guys who invented the transistor, the other (John Bardeen) is already on the list Alexander von Humboldt is listed both under natural sciences, and (without the "von") under explorers. Therefore, I'm proposing to remove the natural sciences one and keep the explorer one p  b  p  23:22, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Swap completed 6-0 in favour. (I kept Von Humboldt in Explorers, seems to have done more exploring than science? and article say his science was criticized, not ground breaking) Carlwev (talk) 01:43, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Politicians
See Vital articles/Expanded/People for complete sublist of related topics.

Remove George H. W. Bush
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support. Recentism: subject is not one of the most significant U.S. presidents of American history.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 06:13, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support: p  b  p  15:08, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support:  STATic  message me!  16:35, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support. --Igrek (talk) 12:43, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support, other than his Gulf War win and "thousand points of light", his term was largely unremarkable.--ColonelHenry (talk) 05:07, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose - I can't in good conscience support this. Let's cut elsewhere. Jus  da  fax   08:19, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * @JDF, I was waiting for the existing discussions on U.S. presidents to run their course, and then I was going to propose to remove the Bill Clinton article, too. Clinton did not have much to show for his eight years in office, either, and had arguably had less impact for good or bad than George W. Bush.  Are you suggesting that all recent U.S. presidents are "vital?"  If we can ditch several political leaders who are listed simply by virtue of the office they held, I think that strengthens our hand in dealing with some of these over-rated pop culture icons.  Not exactly apples to apples, but if we cut Jimmy Carter, where does that leave Whitney Houston for example?  Personally, I say cut'em both.  Vital should mean vital.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:55, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
 * It is my view, rightly or wrongly, that all the U.S. presidents from FDR on are vital. And I do agree to cut Whitney Houston. Jus  da  fax   22:13, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Gerald Ford, then? Anyways, do me a favor and propose cutting something else.   Or vote down Kissinger or whomever. Even if bios isn't bloated in the politicians section, it's bloated elsewhere  p  b  p  14:46, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Remove George W. Bush
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support. Recentism: subject is not one of the most significant U.S. presidents of American history.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 06:13, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose - I'd consider this vital on a list of 10 k. Jus  da  fax   08:23, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose, Afghanistan, Iraq, terrorism, 9/11, stem cell research, the domino effect in the arab world (reforms in Saudi Arabia, the revolution in Lebanon), Georgia vs. Putin, failed social security/entitlements reform, medicare reform, education reform (No Child Left Behind), Bush v. Gore and the Florida Recount, the partisanship worldwide i.e. Bush vs. France (over Iraq), North Korea and "nukuler" weapons, Putin, Iran with Ahmadenijad and the Mullahs, Hugo Chavez and a slew socialists in South America (Bolivia, Brazil), the 2008 economic meltdown and his big tax cuts. Definitely a vital topic in American history, international affairs, and war at the dawn of the 21st century.  Recent, sure, but undeniably vital.--ColonelHenry (talk) 03:14, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose The article is ranked 391 in terms of traffic on the English Wikipedia. Articles that are looked up that often are vital. Also, he is the president who will historically most likely be linked to the notion of war on terrorism. --Melody Lavender (talk) 07:41, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Weak Oppose Carlwev (talk) 01:53, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Archived a little early, but with me it's 4-1 against, I can't see this going through Carlwev (talk) 01:53, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Move Ulysses S. Grant from Political leaders to Military leaders
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support. Not one of the most significant U.S. presidents of American history; more important as a U.S. military leader than political figure.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 06:13, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support p  b  p  19:25, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support - Huge impact as a general, not so much as the president. Jus  da  fax   22:56, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support - as president only known for corruption scandals, as general he beat Lee without regard for the cost in blood, drank, smoked, and probably was the last great Clausewitz-influenced "total war" commander.--ColonelHenry (talk) 03:19, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. --Igrek (talk) 04:30, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose removal: Many historians have often given him bad marks as a President, but Grant probably was never on the list as President to begin with. Perhaps we should move him to Military leaders, where Robert E. Lee is  p  b  p  14:57, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * PBP, would you support moving Grant from political leaders to military leaders. IMO, he really doesn't belong as a representative example of great political leaders.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:40, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * That's fine with me, as I noted above. p  b  p  17:20, 17 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I have revised the proposal to move U.S. Grant from the sublist of political leaders to the sublist of military leaders, where he should be at home next to his Civil War adversary, Robert E. Lee. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:48, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * This move should be a no-brainer. Can we get a couple more votes to execute this move?  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:55, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Remove Maximilian I of Mexico
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support. Like several other political leaders of lesser priority, Maximillian is an interesting historical footnote, but not of vital importance.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:38, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support: p  b  p  20:27, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Carlwev (talk) 17:41, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support aside from Cinco de Mayo, he doesn't figure much. Tostitos and Corona are more vital than the man whose incompetence and foreign meddling made them relevant.--ColonelHenry (talk) 04:33, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. --Igrek (talk) 04:19, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * What are your guys' thoughts on him being on here? Dude only ruled for three bloodstained years, during which many nations considered Juarez (on this list) to be the legitimate ruler of Mexico  p  b  p  15:34, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep Juarez, remove Maximillian, add Diaz. It's called prioritizing, and it's what we must do to get the number of topics on VA/E list under 10,000 while still adding a few high-priority new topics.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:38, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Add John A. Macdonald
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support. I'd propose for adding to the 10,000 list.  He's at least as important as Trudeau.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:13, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support. Per discussion comment below.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 06:13, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Carlwev (talk) 17:44, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support--ColonelHenry (talk) 04:34, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. --Igrek (talk) 14:38, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Macdonald is the closest analogy that Canada has to a "founding father." The inclusion of Trudeau and not Macdonald smacks of recentism and a lack of understanding of Canadian history.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 06:13, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Swap: Add Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington, Remove Alexander Kolchak
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support: p  b  p  18:08, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support. Swap the most prominent military leader of the anti-Napoleonic coalition for an obscure leader of the anti-communist Russians in the aftermath of the Russian Revolution in 1917.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:22, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Carlwev (talk) 20:10, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support, no brainer.--ColonelHenry (talk) 05:09, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. --Igrek (talk) 04:32, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * It seems unconscionable that one of the greatest military leaders of Britain. I welcome suggestions for who to cut, though I do believe that the other Englishmen on this list are deserving of their place  p  b  p  18:08, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Wellesley led the military coalition that saved the world from Bonapartist dictatorship. Kolchak is an interesting historical footnote, but his guys lost and we got 70 years of Soviet communist dictatorship in Eastern Europe and Asia as a result.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:22, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Actors
See Vital articles/Expanded/People for complete sublist of related topics.

Remove Kenneth Branagh (actor)
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support No Olivier. Betty Logan (talk) 17:26, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Carlwev (talk) 20:28, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support p  b  p  21:40, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support - not quite vital on a 10k list, as I see it. Jus  da  fax   20:26, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. Another personal favorite, and a decent candidate from the last 25 years, but I am voting to support the emerging consensus per Betty's discussion comment below.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:55, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Question: what British actor has had a greater impact since 1989 when he produced and starred in Henry V? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * He would probably be vital from the perspective of British actors, but acting in general? I'm not so sure he has had the impact on his profession that say Olivier or John Mills had. At least we can judge them on their whole careers. In truth he's a borderline case, and if you want to get the list size down the borderline cases are the ones that should go. Some of them can always be restored at a later date if the places are available. Betty Logan (talk) 17:51, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Remove Richard Burbage (actor)
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom p  b  p  22:16, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Carlwev (talk) 22:42, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose. There are not many actors from the 17th century are on this list. Keep for chronological diversity. GabeMc  (talk&#124;contribs)  01:15, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose. The list has a pop culture bias. Betty Logan (talk) 21:15, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose. One of the most important actors of the last 300-odd years. - SchroCat (talk) 19:32, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Oppose. --Melody Lavender (talk) 05:13, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Add Daniel Day-Lewis (actor)
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom p  b  p  22:16, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support -- One of few great actors currently performing with a long-record of consistently high-quality performances, critical acclaim (I despise this phrase, but admit it is apposite), and repeats with the big awards.--ColonelHenry (talk) 13:12, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support - Multiple Oscar awards and a substantial body of work. On a list of this size he makes the cut. Jus  da  fax   18:45, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. See below. MadeinJapan (talk · contribs) 13:49, 26 March 2013 (UTC) !vote from a confirmed sock-puppet of an indef blocked user
 * 1) Oppose without identification of specific topic to be deleted to make room for this topic. Will support if and only if lower priority topic is identified for deletion.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 04:23, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose. He is soooooo overrated. GabeMc  (talk&#124;contribs)  01:06, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose. Recentism. Fair enough he has won three oscars so he's a prime candidate, but the oscars are anglo-centric industry based awards and there are many fine actors working outside of the Hollywood sphere. I would like to see more evidence of his acting methods being studied in universities, or as the subject of authoritative books on acting to establish his encyclopedic value. Otherwise we're just sticking him in because he's famous and respected. Betty Logan (talk) 18:27, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Oppose. The oscars he won aren't a measure for his vital encyclopedic value. Putting him on the list would only increase the anglo-centric bias. I think there are already too many actors on the expanded list. --Melody Lavender (talk) 09:32, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Weak oppose I don't think he's coming aboard. Yet. Carlwev (talk) 02:06, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Re:overrated. Dude has three Leading Actor Academy Awards.  Other guys?  Not so much  p  b  p  01:30, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Reply to Gabe: Come on, he's not even slightly overrated. 3 Oscars for a leading role, and one of the only actors who have won the Academy Award in three different decades. Also, easily the most significant actor of the last 10+ years (Gangs of New York, There Will Be Blood, Lincoln). MadeinJapan (talk · contribs) 13:49, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Remove James Dean (actor)
Support !votes
 * 1) Support as nom p  b  p  02:26, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Huge cult appeal, but he hardly made any movies. Betty Logan (talk) 17:29, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support - Hard choice. Legendary to some, but we need to cut. Jus  da  fax   08:29, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) support "rebel without a cause" is overrated and slow paced, and his other two unremarkable movies are too long and tediously unwatchable. (Sorry Mr. Steinbeck, your long book is horribly adapted)--ColonelHenry (talk) 05:00, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Oppose !votes

Discussion

 * The legendary status of James Dean is based mostly on his perceived potential and untimely death. His actual body of work does not justify a place on the list of 50 all-time greatest/most significant/most important actors and actresses.

Remove Johnny Depp (actor)
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support Talented actor who is a pretty big star, but not in the same magnitude as Tom Cruise, and I don't know if he'll rank alongside Clark Gable in 50 years. I say let him face the test of time.
 * 2) Support. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Carlwev (talk) 16:28, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support. --Igrek (talk) 20:29, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support too soon p  b  p  14:49, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * I am mindful that we should have representative examples of great actors from the past thirty years, but I don't think Depp is among the best of the best. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Remove Ava Gardner (actress)
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom p  b  p  02:26, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Lower tier Hollywood star. Not a Monroe or a Bergman. Betty Logan (talk) 17:29, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Carlwev (talk) 16:24, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. --Igrek (talk) 20:29, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Always been a personal favorite, but her actual body of work probably does not merit a place on a list of all-time most significant actors and actresses. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Remove Mel Gibson (actor)
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support Another major contemporary star, but I'm not convinced Mad Max will endure longer than Rhett Butler. Betty Logan (talk) 18:01, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support: p  b  p  21:42, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support, I see no reason why he should be on this list. --Melody Lavender (talk) 16:37, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. --Igrek (talk) 20:29, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Weak oppose for the record I think he should stay, maybe, but it doesn't matter I'm on my own, I have to let him go with 5 against me. Carlwev (talk) 02:14, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Relative easy call. Gibson was a big box office producer before his various public meltdowns, but he is not among the 50+ all-time greatest actors and actresses.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I am almost opposing this, almost but not quite. Carlwev (talk) 16:14, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Remove Gene Hackman (actor)
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom p  b  p  22:16, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Prominent but not very influential. He had more influential contemporaries. Betty Logan (talk) 21:15, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support changed my mind a bit Carlwev (talk) 00:59, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support removing Hackman. He is a significant actor, but we must reduce the list and prioritize those who make the final cut.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:19, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. --Melody Lavender (talk) 09:44, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose. - Hackman is one of the most influential actors of the last 25 years. GabeMc (talk&#124;contribs)  22:36, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Relatively strong entry, but compared to De Niro, Brando, Burton, Stewart, Fonda, Gable and Peck, I think he misses the final cut. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Remove Henry Irving (actor)
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom p  b  p  22:16, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose. - Retain for chronological diversity. Irving was an important English stage actor in the Victorian era. GabeMc  (talk&#124;contribs)  23:07, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose removal. Strong representative of London stage.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:19, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose. The English stage ruled the entertainment world from the 16th century until the early 20th, it should be more represented. Betty Logan (talk) 21:15, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Oppose. --Melody Lavender (talk) 09:49, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * We really should comprehensively review the 18th and 19th Century stage actors currently included. Admittedly, I do not possess the in-depth knowledge to evaluate this group on my own.  Probably more significant than several 20th Century actors such as Sean Penn and Leonardo DiCaprio.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 05:14, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I stand by my comment from April: we still need to systematically review the half-dozen or so English stage actors to make sure we are including only the best of the best. We may have to actually read these articles and do some homework.  At this point, no topic should get a free pass.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Remove Derek Jacobi (actor)
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom p  b  p  22:16, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Carlwev (talk) 22:30, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose. - Jacobi is a founder member of the Royal National Theatre. GabeMc  (talk&#124;contribs)  23:10, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose for now. Probably at least as significant as several 19th Century British stage actors who are not currently under discussion.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 05:14, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose per Gabe. No reason to prefer film stars over theater performers. Betty Logan (talk) 21:15, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Oppose, he's one of the few actors on the list with a stage-career. --Melody Lavender (talk) 09:52, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * I'm starting to rethink this one in terms of critical acclaim and body of work. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Remove Philippe Noiret (actor)
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom p  b  p  22:16, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support cutting Noiret. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:43, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support - would rather have a better French actor like Jean Gabin.--ColonelHenry (talk) 05:56, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose. - Retain Noiret for gobalisation; this list is pretty skimmpy when it comes to great French actors. GabeMc  (talk&#124;contribs)  23:12, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose per WP:WORLDVIEW. Betty Logan (talk) 21:15, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose agree with GabeMc and Betty Logan. --Melody Lavender (talk) 16:39, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Remove Michael Redgrave (actor)
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom  p  b  p  22:16, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support cutting Redgrave. Once big name whose star has gradually faded.  Keep Branagh and Jacobi before Redgrave.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:43, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support fairly important, but it's getting tough, I wouldn't call him very "vital" Carlwev (talk) 12:01, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose. According to pbp, this list is too American-centric, but now he is attempting to trim out all the Brits.  GabeMc  (talk&#124;contribs)  01:21, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose. Probably the best known actor of pre-war British cinema. Betty Logan (talk) 21:15, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose. Northamerica1000(talk) 23:57, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Remove Arnold Schwarzenegger (actor)
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support Briefly the top film star in the early 90s, but even then Sylvester Stallone was probably more culturally relevant with Rocky and Rambo. There is also the "Governator" aspect to consider, but it's not like he pulled a Reagan. On balance I think we can drop him. Betty Logan (talk) 17:26, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support. Entertaining as heck, but not among the 50 all-time greatest by any measure (except box office, maybe).  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Weak oppose see below, Carlwev (talk) 16:36, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose, familiar American icon. --Igrek (talk) 20:06, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose due to his popularity, as discussed below by user Igrek. --Melody Lavender (talk) 10:12, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Discussion
I have heard people say Madonna has had a big impact on pop music despite not being that good a musician. I have heard people say Enid Blyton sold 600 million books and wrote 100s of stories but was actually not a very good author. Arnold is kind of the same kind of thing to cinema. Sorry, I can let it go though if it gets enough support for removal though. Carlwev (talk) 16:36, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Arnold's is an interesting personal story, but the objective quality of his acting and body of work does not merit a place on this list. Let's move this one along quickly.  We have far harder decisions to make than this one.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe we need a few action and blockbuster stars, he did have an impact on cinema despite not being very good at acting.
 * I agree he has an interesting story, but maybe I am misunderstanding what constitutes a "vital" topic here? If we want an array of interesting people who happen to be actors then he probably qualifies. If we want a selection of performers who would have to be covered in a comprehensive study of acting then I just don't see that in Arnold's case. The action film is a notable genre, but I think Stallone was more integral to the rise of that genre with Rocky and Rambo, kind of like how Bruce Lee was to the Kung Fu genre. Maybe a swap is the order of the day here: Arnold out and Stallone in. Betty Logan (talk) 18:19, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * @Betty, I don't think their body of work rates either Arnold or Sly a place on a list of the all-time 50 most "vital" actors, regardless of their action movie box office success. Heck, we could make the same argument for Chuck Norris, ad I'm not even if sure if Chuck is an actor or a martial artist who appears in movies.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:55, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Remove John Travolta (actor)
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support Had times when he was a pretty huge star, but I'm not sure he will ever rank alongside the true screen legends. Let time be the judge here. Betty Logan (talk) 17:26, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support per Betty. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support. --Igrek (talk) 20:29, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support I couldn't think of a good reason to keep him on the list. --Melody Lavender (talk) 10:14, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Not "the one that I want" p  b  p  17:14, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Notwithstanding some of the critical acclaim he received in the 1990s, I have always though Travolta was over-rated. Sorry, but he always seems to play a "dude" within a relatively narrow range.  Perhaps it is an unfair comparison, but this is not a Burton, Brando or Streep.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Musicians and composers
See Vital articles/Expanded/People for complete sublist of related topics.

Remove The Beach Boys
Support !votes
 * 1) Support as nom --Igrek (talk) 21:20, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Oppose !votes
 * 1) Oppose - Uhhh... nope. Way too big.  Jus  da  fax   22:00, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose. I've thought about it.  See discussion comment below.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 12:02, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose Of the 30 or so rockers on this list, there are easily 10-15 I would cut before the Beach Boys p  b  p  16:08, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * The sublists of pop and rock musicians are among the most bloated of any on the overall VA/E because everyone and their sister has added their favorites over the past years. The Beach Boys were true innovators, especially in their use of harmonies, and Pet Sounds ranks on virtually everyone's top 100 albums of all time.  That having been said, we need to sharpen our pencils (and knives), and critically review these lists.  I would suggest they need to be cut by 20 to 25 percent, and that's going to involve some disagreement, argument and controversy before we're done.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 12:02, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The Beach Boys or Nirvana? Beach Boys or Bruce Springsteen?  This was a group that was every bit as big in their hey day as the Beatles.  They were innovators.  Just because they made "pop rock" does not mean that it was not very good pop rock, nor does that mean that we need discount their body of work in comparison to some of the harder edged stuff of the last 30 years (metal and grunge).

Remove Celine Dion
Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom p  b  p  22:32, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Weak Support. Despite widespread popularity as a vocalist, must vote to delete when we are 400+ articles over the limit.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk)
 * 3) Support. - Popular, but not influential. GabeMc  (talk&#124;contribs)  02:57, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support - Per DL and Gabe. Jus  da  fax   18:52, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. Northamerica1000(talk) 23:59, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 6) Weak Support Carlwev (talk) 10:15, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose, best-selling female artist of all time, non-English speaking singer (keep for globalisation). --Igrek (talk) 20:55, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * @Igrek, but what will be the impact of her music and style over the longer term? Beautiful voice, but nothing terribly original or influential.  She's no Edith Piaf.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:59, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I see serious problem - too many English-language singers in the list, most of them not more popular than Celine Dion. For my opinion, French-, Spanish-, Italian- (and others language) singers must be added to list instead of English-language singers. --Igrek (talk) 19:43, 21 May 2013 (UTC)


 * @Igrek, I recently spent a long week driving in Italy, listening entirely to Italian language radio stations, and I was struck by the fact that 40 to 50 percent of the programming was English-language pop music -- Elvis Presley, the Beatles, Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, and a bunch of current pop artists from the last 40 years. We can argue about Celine Dion (and you may be right), but there is no doubting that English language pop music dominates the western world's radio dial.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Remove The Eagles
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support: p  b  p  16:20, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support. I struggled with this one because they are among my personal favorites, but my honest perception is that they are in the second tier of 1970s and 80s "super groups."  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:59, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support - If DL can bite the bullet on this, I'll go along. Pretty legendary group though. Jus  da  fax   19:56, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support. --Igrek (talk) 21:09, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. --Melody Lavender (talk) 05:49, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Remove Antônio Carlos Jobim from VA list of 1,000, Add to VA/E list of 10,000 (?)
I'll bring this up here as this is the page everyone watching, and it may mean an add here. Brazilian musician Antônio Carlos Jobim was among articles added relatively recently to the vital 1000 without discussion, before the lock down, my self and other users expressed concern but he remained; although in the 1000 list he is not even within the vital 10'000, this cannot be obviously. What do users think is best, our options as I see them are as follows, (A) Have him in both the 1000 and 10'000. (B) Have him in the 10'000 list only. (C) Remove him completely.

Support option A, include him in both the VA 1,000 and VA/E 10,000

Support option B, include him in the VA/E 10,000 list only
 * 1) Support as nom, (I will support the majority, 10,000, OK for globalization, fair importance - for 1000 not a chance) Carlwev (talk) 14:44, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support p  b  p  16:58, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support. --Melody Lavender (talk) 14:52, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support. Not vital enough for the VA list of 1,000; reasonably interesting pick for the VA/E list of 10,000.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:47, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. --Igrek (talk) 21:09, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Support option C, Remove him completely

Discussion

 * Comment: Shouldn't we also be having this discussion at WP:VA?  p  b  p  16:58, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Remove Alison Krauss
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support: p  b  p  16:20, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support. One of my current CW favorites, but it's too early in her career to have a sense of her impact on the genre.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:59, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Carlwev (talk) 18:46, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support beautiful voice, but not vital or influential. --ColonelHenry (talk) 06:55, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. --Igrek (talk) 21:09, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Remove Dean Martin
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom p  b  p  17:41, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:02, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support - Dino must go. Jus  da  fax   05:50, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support. --Igrek (talk) 20:47, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support- --Melody Lavender (talk) 06:14, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * I love Dean Martin; truly one of the best voices of his generation. But we are prioritizing a bloated pop culture list, and Frank Sinatra and others are far bigger icons of the easy listening music from the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:02, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Add Public Enemy
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * Support as the nominator. MadeinJapan (talk · contribs) 11:15, 28 March 2013 (UTC) !vote from a confirmed sock-puppet of an indef blocked user
 * 1) Support. - Hip-hop is currenty underrepresented, in fact, its almost completely ignored. GabeMc  (talk&#124;contribs)  20:39, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose: p  b  p  23:54, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Weak oppose Carlwev (talk) 19:41, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 04:23, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Perhaps justifiably under-represented. Relatively new phenomenon (The Message came out only 31 years ago), and while it's global now, that's only occurred within my lifetime.  In a list that should have less than 2,500 bios, probably only 2 hip hop artists are significant, and various proposals will get us to that number.  Also, I think it's kinda paradoxical that Public Enemy is in and Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five is out.  p  b  p  23:54, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Pbp, do you think three inclusions from rap/hip-hop would be excessive? GabeMc  (talk&#124;contribs)  00:19, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Not as excessive as four. Also, it depends on which three  p  b  p  01:11, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, there are 5 hip hop artists (Run–DMC, Public Enemy, Tupac Shakur, Jay-Z, Eminem) worthy of a slot in this list. MadeinJapan (talk · contribs) 12:53, 29 March 2013 (UTC) !vote from a confirmed sock-puppet of an indef blocked user
 * Sure, they all may be worthy, and GMF probably is too, but if we made a list of all the "worthy" topics, we could easily have 12-15,000. At present, consensus is to bring the list down to 10,000.  And as such, I believe two hip-hop artists is the right number  p  b  p  17:25, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Which two do you support including? GabeMc  (talk&#124;contribs)  01:46, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Seriously? Can we please vote and close this thread?  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:59, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Add Run–D.M.C.
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * Support as the nominator. MadeinJapan (talk · contribs) 11:15, 28 March 2013 (UTC) !vote from a confirmed sock-puppet of an indef blocked user
 * 1) Support. - Hip-hop is currenty underrepresented, in fact, its almost completely ignored. GabeMc  (talk&#124;contribs)  20:33, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose Carlwev (talk) 19:12, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose. Please either nominate a representative hip-hop artist or confirm the hip-hop genre is already included as a stand-alone list topic.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 04:23, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Again, is this a serious nomination? Let's !vote and clear this from the board.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:59, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Add D.W. Griffith
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support: p  b  p  21:55, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Jesus, he's not on? The "father of film" says it all. When we talk about "vital" this is really what we mean isn't it: someone who made an epochal contribution to the medium that affected its evolution. Betty Logan (talk) 22:07, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support - per Betty Logan. Obviously vital. Jus  da  fax   06:40, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Griffith created many of the cinematography techniques (night shoots, close ups, dollies, panorama shots) and other studio effects Hollywood hasn't much evolved from. Birth of a Nation is a big keep as well. Throw off Intolerance, its inclusion seems rather PC despite that the film was horrible and pandering. Broken Blossoms was a much better film than Intolerance. ColonelHenry 02:51, May 25, 2013‎
 * 6) Support consensus and added as 6-0 Carlwev (talk) 15:44, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * With the inclusion of D.W. Griffith, do we really need to include both Birth of a Nation and Intolerance on the movies list? I see the inclusion of Intolerance as someone's idea of balancing the relatively favorable treatment the Ku Klax Klan received in several scenes from Birth of a Nation.  Probably not necessary.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Rebels, revolutionaries and activists
See Vital articles/Expanded/People for complete sublist of related topics.

Move Jean-Paul Marat from Journalists to Revolutionaries
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:02, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support - Agree as self-evident. Jus  da  fax   23:15, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support p  b  p  03:57, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Carlwev (talk) 16:43, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Self-explanatory: miscategorized. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:02, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Journalists
See Vital articles/Expanded/People for complete sublist of related topics.

General discussion of topic area

 * This is the list of journalists lifted straight from vital articles, currently there are 34 journalists. I fail to see why a list of about 2000 most vital biographies would have 34 journalists, there are only 31 explorers for example. There are some top selling authors and books not in the list, that are higher importance than some of these news writers and news readers/anchors, many authors are read for a long long time after their death, journalists not as much. Many news anchors I would imagine are unknown outside their own country, and the amount of languages some of these journalists appear in on Wikipedia suggests that too, do many people watch foreign news before their own nation's? I would probably delete most of the journalists, but I will nominate them one by one. Feel free to nominate any from the list too. Carlwev (talk) 15:27, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * At the wikiproject journalism, these have mixed importance from high to low to unrated, I am taking that into account when nominating, as well as how many languages they appear in as a rough hint of their international recognition. Carlwev (talk) 15:43, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: I do think that our list presently favors fiction writing at the expense of non-fiction writing, of which journalism is part. However, many of these journalists aren't of the caliber to be on this list, and all of them are from the last 200 years, so I could see this being trimmed down to 15-20.
 * I think you have a point, you could nominate any particular important non fiction writers you are thinking about, if not now when the numbers start to go down. I would say however some of the most important works of non fiction are written by people that we do have listed but not in writers, as they are listed under the topic they wrote about and had impact in. Like Darwin in scientistists who wrote, Origin of Species. Karl Marx, Communist Manifesto. eg. As well as many of the people listed in philosophers wrote important works of kind of non fiction too. Carlwev (talk) 16:22, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Carl, this is yet another example of a sublist that has been allowed to blossom without any real rhyme or reason; it is just a collection of persons who individual editors thought were important. When we talk about broadcast journalists (radio and television) in the United States, the starting point is Edward R. Murrow of CBS radio and television, whose mantel was then passed to Walter Cronkite when CBS was the gold standard of broadcast news.  People should not be on this list for the simple reason they filled the anchor's chair on a network news show (e.g. Dan Rather, Tom Brokaw, Peter Jennings, David Brinkley, Chet Huntley, Howard K. Smith, Eric Sevareid, Ed Bradley, Barbara Walters, etc.).  This list is remarkably heavy on such broadcasters and light on actual print journalists, i.e., influential people who actually wrote for a newspaper or magazine.  Even if we were to add four or five key print journalists, I agree that this list could still be pared by 40 to 50 percent.  It's really quite odd that we have broadcast lightweights like Dianne Sawyer and Dan Rather on this list while omitting truly great print journalists like H. L. Mencken and Horace Greeley and Walter Lippman.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:21, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Remove Tom Brokaw
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support deleting Brokaw: just another guy who filled a network news anchor chair. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:56, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Carlwev (talk) 03:12, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support - I will have to agree on this. Jus  da  fax   06:53, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support.--ColonelHenry (talk) 07:02, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. --Melody Lavender (talk) 18:24, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Swap: Remove Dan Rather, Add Horace Greeley
Support !votes
 * 1) Support: as nom p  b  p  18:29, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support. Easy call.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:56, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Carlwev (talk) 03:18, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support easy call. abolitionism and the civil war vs. badly faked documents slandering Bush.--ColonelHenry (talk) 07:06, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support - Very tough call for me as Rather had a distinguished career marred by the incident Col. Henry mentions. In the end I will reluctantly go with consensus and provide the fifth !vote needed. No doubt about the need for Greeley, of course. Jus  da  fax   07:33, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 6) Support. --Melody Lavender (talk) 18:20, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Oppose !votes

Discussion

 * Guys, this one deserves some attention. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Remove I.F. Stone
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom p  b  p  16:07, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Carlwev (talk) 16:31, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support removing I.F. Stone -- he does not rise to the level of best examples of American journalists. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:36, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support. --Igrek (talk) 20:14, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. --Melody Lavender (talk) 18:19, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Fictional characters
See Vital articles/Expanded/People for complete sublist of related topics.

General discussion of topic area: Fictional characters

 * More of an open question. at the moment. If we are trying to trim movies do we need Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader when we already have Star Wars. We are voting for some movies/franchises to have or not have one space on the list, Star Wars technically has 3 spaces on the whole list. I say the same for Gandalf and Frodo when we already have LOTR, and Kirk and Spock when we already have Star Trek. Basically some franchises/fictions are getting 3 slots when some influential movies/franchises/shows/books are getting none. Captain Kirk himself could be removed, as him and his fiction are still covered by Star Trek. My favourite kind of character to have are ones where the character and franchise/fiction are almost one and the same. Sherlock Holmes, Tarzan, Batman, James Bond. We probably wouldn't have Sherlock Holmes the character AND the book series. All vital information is in one article why would we need 2 or 3 to cover one fiction? Carlwev (talk) 13:52, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Carl opened this as a discussion. I agree with his premise. and move that we move to topic-specific discussion and !voting.  All of the listed fictional characters are already covered by virtue of the inclusion of their parent work or series, or in several cases by coverage of the author (e.g. Dr. Seuss).  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:15, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Another point to add people to ponder on... If you were told you were allowed 2 spaces to represent the work of George Lucas and his studio, would you choose Star Wars and Indiana Jones, or would you choose Stars Wars and Darth Vader, having some overlapping/duplication of one franchise but completely forgetting the other altogether. (This isn't a proposal to add Indiana Jones, who is not listed at the moment by the way). If you had 2 spaces for the work of Tolkien, would it be LOTR and Frodo Baggins, or LOTR and The Hobbit? (We don't have the hobbit at the moment) Carlwev (talk) 15:50, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Remove Grinch
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom, We already have Dr. Seuss and The Cat in the Hat. Is the Grinch really that important by himself? Does Seuss and his works really need 3 slots, when some writers can't get one? Carlwev (talk) 14:02, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:15, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support - per Carl. Jus  da  fax   09:16, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support: p  b  p  22:18, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. --Igrek (talk) 15:08, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

=Arts=

Films
See Vital articles/Expanded/Arts for complete sublist of related topics.

Remove Close Encounters of the Third Kind
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support In terms of Spielberg, it isn't as significant as Jaws, ET, Schindler's List. Betty Logan (talk) 23:45, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support per Betty. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:12, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support "If" we have a Spielberg alien movie it should be ET not this. Carlwev (talk) 09:52, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support and both ET and Schindler's List should be there. --Melody Lavender (talk) 16:43, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support p  b  p  01:29, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Remove Dr. Strangelove
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support Arguably Kubrick's best film, but again not really an influential film, at least not on a list of 50 films. Betty Logan (talk) 23:45, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support. Fun movie about the scary times of my youth?  Yes, sir.  One of the all-time 40 to 50 greatest/most influential movies ever made?  Not even close.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:12, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose Dr. Strangelove is one of the greater satires in the history of film. Influential in commentary/criticism of the cold war and the doctrine of mutually assured destruction.--ColonelHenry (talk) 01:45, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose, because the cold war is an important topic --Melody Lavender (talk) 14:45, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose: Seems to have had a profound cultural impact.  I'd have to guess that it's certainly one of the 20 or 30 most referenced films, at least.  Represents a zeitgeist  p  b  p  01:34, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * @Melody Lavender, yes, the Cold War is a vital topic, and it is already included on the Modern History sublist. We are trying to cut the Films sublist to the 45 to 50 most significant movies of all time; we are not seeking to include example movies of historical eras and events, especially when the historical eras and events are already separately listed on other VA/E sublists.  We are 400 articles over the 10,000 article limit for the Vital Articles/Expanded list, and we must cut such redundancies.  I respectfully ask you to reconsider your !vote above.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:07, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
 * To call this a redundancy is far fetched. The list is still being discussed, it's not only about cutting it. The topic a movie addresses and how it is addressed should be a criterion for inclusion, imho. The list shouldn't be entirely made up of movies that deal with love and crime, as most movies do. Dr. Strangelove sticks out in that respect, that's why I think it has a good chance of being of lasting encyclopedic relevance in the future. In writing an encyclopedia we should consider the long run: Which movies are likely to be vital in ten or twenty years? I wonder if Singing in the rain or even Some like it hot are voted off then. Dr. Strangelove might still be on because it deals with a historically important topic. --Melody Lavender (talk) 17:01, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Remove Harry Potter
Support !votes
 * 1) Support. - As nom. GabeMc  (talk&#124;contribs)  21:36, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Weak support. I tend to agree with Gabe on this onePotter & Rowling sold a lot of books and made a lot of bucks, but I don't see this as something millions of kids will be reading in 25 years.  If we're wrong, we can always add it back in five years.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:11, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Pop culture phenomenon, but hasn't faced the test of time. Not exactly Charlie and the Chocolate Factory yet. Betty Logan (talk) 23:18, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support, recentism. --Igrek (talk) 15:01, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Weak support, I will give the 5th vote, but I still say James T Kirk, Gandalf and Darth Vader are worse, being redundant to their parent work. But it matters not, Potter is going

Oppose !votes
 * 1) Oppose- Worldwide interest in book and movie form. Book readership in young people a phenomenon in itself. On a list of 10,000 I see this as, indeed, vital. Unlike DL I believe the Potter books and movies will have a lasting impact, as those who grew up with the Potter books and movies read and watch them with their own children. Our Wikipedia articles on these franchises are in good shape: informative and quite readable. (Full disclosure, I have worked on the Harry Potter (film series) article.) Jus  da  fax   20:07, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Potter is far too recent (16 years). He is also a pop-culture fad that appears to be quickly fading. GabeMc  (talk&#124;contribs)  21:36, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Remove Raging Bull
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support What distinguishes this from say Apocalypse Now, for example? Betty Logan (talk) 23:45, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support - Not vital. Jus  da  fax   08:33, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support. De Niro turned in a career performance as Jake LaMotta, but does this movie deserve to be on the short list of all-time top 25 American movies?  I think not, per discussion comment below.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 03:20, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support: p  b  p  16:55, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Carlwev (talk) 17:21, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * In the back of my head, I am still thinking about two or three great American movies that aren't on this list, but probably belong on this list. For instance, does The Searchers, one of the two or three greatest westerns ever produced deserve a slot before Raging Bull?  I think so; therefore I must cut before I can add.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 03:20, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Remove Some Like It Hot
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support A much beloved classic, but it's no Casablanca at the end of the day in terms of the enduring affection for it. Betty Logan (talk) 23:45, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support per Betty. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:12, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Carlwev (talk) 20:33, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support. --Melody Lavender (talk) 17:44, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support p  b  p  15:33, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Remove Taxi Driver
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support Great American classic, but there are so many. Hasn't impacted on American culture to the same extent The Godfather has. Betty Logan (talk) 23:45, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support: p  b  p  01:56, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support - Hard call but I see emerging consensus. Jus  da  fax   06:16, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support. Obviously a well-acted movie, but thematically I don't think Taxi Driver makes the short list of great American movies (i.e. top 25 of all time).  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 03:20, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Carlwev (talk) 13:13, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Discussion
=Anthropology, psychology and everyday life=

Alcoholic beverages
See Vital articles/Expanded/Anthropology, psychology and everyday life for a complete sublist of related topics.

Add Brandy
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom. --Igrek (talk) 11:03, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Carlwev (talk) 11:55, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support p  b  p  21:13, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support. Best-known example of distilled/fortified wine.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 05:44, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) support - agree with above.--ColonelHenry (talk) 23:59, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Add Kvass
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom. --Igrek (talk) 11:03, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose. We do not need to to add obscure drinks when we are 300+ topics over the VA/E limit of 10,000 articles.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 05:44, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose - Agree with DL: I can't consider Kvass "vital." Jus  da  fax   19:15, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose: per DL p  b  p  00:06, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Oppose Carlwev (talk) 21:44, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Remove Red wine
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom. Wine are already included. --Igrek (talk) 16:12, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support. "Red wine" is another relatively meaningless generic term.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 05:44, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support - "Wine" will do. Jus  da  fax   19:06, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support - agree, Wine is sufficient.--ColonelHenry (talk) 00:03, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support see below Carlwev (talk) 13:56, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Once we are under the 10,000 article limit again for the VA/E list, I would support adding several example of the most prominent examples of red wine, such as Cabernet-Sauvignon, Pinot Noir, and Merlot. I won't propose such vital additions as long as we exceed the stated VA/E limit.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:27, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I was unsure at first but perhaps red and white wine are empty generic subdivisions of wine. I will support the consensus, although much more popular than many other drinks, it is only because it's a handy division of wine and includes almost half of all wine types, most meaningful info is at the wine article, or at individual wine variety articles. Bread and wine are in the 1000 list, bread has not been expanded into it's 2 main colours/varieties white bread and brown bread, so maybe wine shouldn't either. Carlwev (talk) 13:56, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Remove White wine
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom. Wine are already included. --Igrek (talk) 16:12, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support. "White wine" is another relatively meaningless generic term.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 05:44, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support - "Wine" will do. Jus  da  fax   19:04, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support - wine will suffice.--ColonelHenry (talk) 00:04, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Carlwev (talk) 13:58, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Once we are under the 10,000 article limit again for the VA/E list, I would support adding several of the most prominent examples of white wine, such as Chardonnay and Champagne. I won't propose such vital additions as long as we exceed the stated VA/E limit.
 * I was unsure at first but perhaps red and white wine are empty generic subdivisions of wine. I will support the consensus, although much more popular than many other drinks, it is only because it's a handy division of wine and includes almost half of all wine types, most meaningful info is at the wine article, or at individual wine variety articles. Bread and wine are in the 1000 list, bread has not been expanded into it's 2 main colours/varieties white bread and brown bread, so maybe wine shouldn't either. Carlwev (talk) 13:58, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

National cuisines
See Vital articles/Expanded/Anthropology, psychology and everyday life for a complete sublist of related topics.


 * I have added Cuisines: French, Italian, Indian, and Chinese. Even I myself am cringing at more additions. But they have 5-1 support, and even the one 5-2 support is over the magic 70% threshold. Plus users opposing say they think the articles in question are actually vital but are just opposing because we are over limit. The over limit is still a big problem, but if it's any consolation before adding 4 cuisines, we removed 7 sport articles from the same page, an hour ago, so even though they weren't posted as direct swaps, the total is still coming down, we are removing a lot more than adding. Carlwev (talk) 00:29, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Add Chinese cuisine
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom. --Igrek (talk) 15:16, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support p  b  p  21:10, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Carlwev (talk) 21:28, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Northamerica1000(talk) 23:37, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. --Melody Lavender (talk) 06:31, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose. While I consider this to be good addition to the list, I cannot support adding Chinese cuisine until we get the VA/E list under the 10,000 topics limit again.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:17, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Discussion
Seems more important to me than articles on individual foods such as Gouda or Parmesan. --Melody Lavender (talk) 06:31, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Add French cuisine
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom. --Igrek (talk) 15:16, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support p  b  p  21:10, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Carlwev (talk) 21:28, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Northamerica1000(talk) 23:37, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. --Melody Lavender (talk) 06:29, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose. While I consider this to be "vital," I cannot support adding French cuisine until we get the VA/E list under the limit of 10,000 topics again.  It is simply a matter of forcing the process of prioritization and making choices.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:17, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose - per DL. We can take another look at this down the road. Jus  da  fax   01:12, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Add Indian cuisine
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom. --Igrek (talk) 15:16, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support p  b  p  21:10, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Carlwev (talk) 21:28, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Northamerica1000(talk) 23:37, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. --Melody Lavender (talk) 06:24, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose. While I consider this to be good addition to the VA/E list, I cannot support adding Indian cuisine until we get the VA/E list under its limit of 10,000 topics again.  It is simply a matter of forcing the process of prioritization and making choices.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:17, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Add Italian cuisine
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom. --Igrek (talk) 15:16, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support p  b  p  21:10, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Carlwev (talk) 21:28, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Northamerica1000(talk) 23:37, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. --06:23, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose. While I consider this to be good addition to the list, I cannot support adding Italian cuisine until we get the VA/E list under the limit of 10,000 topics again.  It's a matter of forcing the process of prioritization and making choices.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:17, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Discussion
Even if we currently have too many articles on the list, there are some vital entries that have simply been overlooked, this is one of them. --Melody Lavender (talk) 06:23, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Individual foods: Cheese
See Vital articles/Expanded/Anthropology, psychology and everyday life for a complete sublist of related topics.

Cheese discussions finished
I believe the cheese voting has run it's course. 3 cheese were removed Feta, Ricotta and Edam. We now have a total of 5 cheese varieties, which is better than 8, and people, including myself, think within 10'000 articles we should have several cheese varieties, maybe 5 is the right number. The others nominated for removal had 4 users in opposition, enough to keep the articles and close the discussion, people think they should stay. Carlwev (talk) 00:59, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

General discussion of topic area: Cheeses

 * There are 8 cheeses listed in Food and drink, (There were even more before, I deleted some a while back.) I think 8 cheeses might be too many, considering our articles about food, drink have been between 150 and 160 for a while, 8 cheeses is more than 1/20 of all food drink and cooking articles. There are still a few food articles we don't have that that may be more important, Confectionery, Halal? that are higher in food project importance than some of the cheeses. I will nominate one for now Ricotta. Carlwev (talk) 19:51, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I propose removing all kinds hard and semi hard cheeses and adding some other articles about food. --Igrek (talk) 14:28, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I do not support removing all prominent examples of individual cheese types, but I do not consider ricotta to be among the "vital" examples. I will defend keeping bleu, cheddar, Emmentaller (Swiss), gouda, parmesan, etc., as among the most common and widely consumed varieties.  "Cheese" should not be reduced to the meaningless generic categories of hard, semi-soft and soft.  I think it makes our list less vital to rely on such generic categories of food and drink (like "red wine"), when prominent concrete examples exist.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:17, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Remove Edam
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom. --Igrek (talk) 13:52, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support p  b  p  21:05, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support - Hardly vital. Jus  da  fax   01:10, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Carlwev (talk) 18:34, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support -- per Dirtlawyer1's logic above. Edam is not vital while I think Gouda is.--ColonelHenry (talk) 00:10, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 6) Support. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 03:27, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * I actually learned some neat cheese trivia when I read this article, but I still don't think Edam is one of the big five or six "vital" examples of cheese that we should keep on the list. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 03:27, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Remove Feta
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom. Carlwev (talk) 12:04, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support p  b  p  21:05, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support-- per Dirtlawyer1, and add that Feta is a rather useless cheese.--ColonelHenry (talk) 00:08, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support. I like feta on my spinach salad with a balsamic vinaigrette, but I don't think that makes feta "vital."  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 03:27, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. --Igrek (talk) 18:38, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 6) Support. --Melody Lavender (talk) 17:56, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Remove Gouda
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom. --Igrek (talk) 13:53, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support p  b  p  21:05, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose. Per my logic in the general discussion above.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:17, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose -- per Dirtlawyer1.--ColonelHenry (talk) 00:07, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose. Per the article, "The first mention of Gouda cheese dates from 1184, making it one of the oldest recorded cheeses in the world still made today." Northamerica1000(talk) 00:07, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Oppose and close, this one looks like its staying Carlwev (talk) 22:04, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Remove Parmesan
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom. --Igrek (talk) 13:57, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support p  b  p  21:05, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose. One of the most common and widely used examples of hard cheese.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:17, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose -- per Dirtlawyer1.--ColonelHenry (talk) 00:07, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose - An historical cheese that was written about as early as 1348 CE. It is used on every continent on the planet, except perhaps Antarctica. Northamerica1000(talk) 23:39, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Oppose and close, this one looks like its staying Carlwev (talk) 22:04, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Add Kefir
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom. --Igrek (talk) 11:02, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose -- not vital.--ColonelHenry (talk) 00:11, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose. Per my discussion comment below.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 03:35, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose I must oppose and close this is not very vital and will not get added at this time Carlwev (talk) 02:03, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * We are cutting some of the most common kinds of cheeses in the world to pare the list, most of which are more "vital" than any of the dairy items listed here. When we are 400 topics over the set limit of 10,000, we simply do not have room to add topics of limited regional appeal.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 03:35, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Add Quark (dairy product)
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom. --Igrek (talk) 11:02, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose -- not vital.--ColonelHenry (talk) 00:11, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 03:35, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose I must oppose and close this is not very vital and will not get added at this time Carlwev (talk) 02:03, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * When we are 400 topics over the set limit of 10,000, we simply do not have room to add topics of limited regional appeal. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 03:35, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Add Whey
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom. --Igrek (talk) 11:02, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose -- not vital.--ColonelHenry (talk) 00:11, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 03:35, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose I must oppose and close this is not very vital and will not get added at this time Carlwev (talk) 02:03, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * When we are 400 topics over the set limit of 10,000, we simply do not have room to add topics of limited regional appeal. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 03:35, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Food: Miscellaneous
See Vital articles/Expanded/Anthropology, psychology and everyday life for a complete sublist of related topics.

Add Pickling
Support !votes
 * 1) Support as nom. --Igrek (talk) 12:29, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support: p  b  p  20:06, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support per my comment below. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 04:17, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) support-- not vital.--ColonelHenry (talk) 00:14, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. --Melody Lavender (talk) 17:54, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 6) Support Northamerica1000(talk) 00:16, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Oppose !votes

Discussion

 * Before the 20th Century invention of refrigeration, pickling, smoking, drying and making cheese were the four principle ways that perishable foods were preserved. This is a vital food concept that should be added to an appropriate foods sublist.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 04:17, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Col Henry, your comment suggests you may have mis-read the thread. This proposal is to Add pickling. If you believe it's not vital you would not be in support of adding it? Carlwev (talk) 19:29, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not 100% sure what Henry's vote was meant to be, but it doesn't matter 6-0 or 5-1 is still enough to add. And I removed Feta, voted off separately at the sme time to add this. Carlwev (talk) 22:37, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Remove Bagatelle
Support !votes
 * 1) Support, another fairly obscure, unknown, very far from vital sport/game/activity. Carlwev (talk) 18:14, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support. Non vital -- whack!  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:30, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support: Cue sports are over-represented p  b  p  22:11, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support A mere bagatelle (sorry, couldn't resist.) Jus  da  fax   09:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support -- Thought this was the musical piece, guess I was wrong. This is not vital.--ColonelHenry (talk) 00:15, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Oppose !votes

Remove Floor exercise, Somersault and Vault (gymnastics) (gymnastics)
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support all, as nom Carlwev (talk) 12:44, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support p  b  p  22:11, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 11:34, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support - This is a good call to pull these three. None are vital and are covered by gymnastics. Jus  da  fax   09:59, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. --Melody Lavender (talk) 17:53, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 6) Support. --Igrek (talk) 14:56, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Why have gymnastics plus these? Why not have swimming and breaststroke and backstroke? Or karate and kick punch and block? Do we need them in? While I don't think these are terrible, I'm not sure if they cut it.
 * Trampoline is also there, but for some reason I don't dislike this as much as the others, anyone feel free to nominate trampoline as well if you dislike it yourself.
 * If you agree on one or two but not all. say so Carlwev (talk) 12:44, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Remove Foil (fencing) and Sabre (fencing) (Fencing swords/events)
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom, per discussion below Carlwev (talk) 12:14, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support: p  b  p  22:11, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 11:34, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support. --Igrek (talk) 20:31, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. - The two are quite different but consensus is clear: keep the fencing main article and cut the two variations. Jus  da  fax   07:46, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 6) Support. --Melody Lavender (talk) 17:46, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * We have fencing itself and I think that should stay; however it is one of the less played and watched sports compared with others. So taking that into account and the fact we have next to no sports equipment listed, specific fencing swords are very low priority, in my book. We don't have cricket bat or soccer ball or golf club etc. Carlwev (talk) 12:14, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Fencing may not be a commonly watched sport nowadays, but it is worth noting that it was an original Olympic discipline (Pierre de Coubertin was a fencer), and is one of the older sports on the list p  b  p  22:11, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Remove Goalkeeper
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support. No other sport lists an individual position.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:25, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support. --Igrek (talk) 20:34, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support - Jus  da  fax   07:20, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support. --Melody Lavender (talk) 17:45, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Carlwev (talk) 22:55, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Discussion
This will probably end up being removed anyway. However the article appears to be about all kinds of goalkeeper, not just football/soccer, which is where it is now. So that should place it in the list of general sports topics with sports equipment, and sport regulation etc. Carlwev (talk) 14:44, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Remove Racket (sports equipment)
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support. No other sport lists an individual item of equipment.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:25, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support was already thinking about about proposing this. Carlwev (talk) 20:31, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support: p  b  p  22:11, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support - Agree with above. Jus  da  fax   20:45, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. --Igrek (talk) 14:50, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * We don't have golf club, cricket bat etc. However thinking about it, the tennis racket is probably a more vital topic to tennis than 19 separate tennis players, some of them need to go too. Carlwev (talk) 20:31, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

=Technoogy=

Remove Penthouse apartment
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support. Redundant category of large apartment (i.e. flat).  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:17, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Carlwev (talk) 08:48, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support - Hardly vital. Jus  da  fax   07:39, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support p  b  p  00:18, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. --Melody Lavender (talk) 18:33, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 6) Support Northamerica1000(talk) 23:45, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Apartment, barracks, house, hut, igloo and villa are already listed. We can't afford the redundancy when we are 300+ articles over the VA/E limit.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:17, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

=Measurement=

Units of Measurement
See Vital articles/Expanded/Measurement for complete sublist of related topics.

No active discussions at this time

General discussion of topic area
I think we have too many units of measurement, too many based on the same system. Too many orders of magnitude/prefixes for the same units, mostly of the metre and second, when metre and second themselves may be enough. I'm not sure how much information can be put into the articles to make them good articles that wouldn't be exactly what's in metre and second already. Much of these articles are only lists of things measured with the prefix unit. For example I thought Millilitre is used more than femtometre, but not only is millilitre not on our list it doesn't even have it's own article, it redirects to litre, as it's seen as not important by itself separate from litre. Many of these prefixes are not really used other than by scienists apart from millimetre and maybe microgram for medicine. I will ask if users think some or all of these can go.Carlwev (talk) 10:51, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Remove Millimetre
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * Weak Support as nom, I don't dislike this one as much as the rest, it's used a bit by ordinary people. Carlwev (talk) 10:51, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Support:  p  b  p  18:01, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support:. --Igrek (talk) 20:07, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support. --Melody Lavender (talk) 14:08, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose. Unlike most of the units of measurement proposed for removal from the expanded VA list, millimeter is a commonly used unit/increment in every day life.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:46, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose my own nom? Sorry to mess about, changed my mind on this one. I'm glad the others are getting support, that will get numbers down. This one is commonly used, a 100 times more than femtometre in the real world. Carlwev (talk) 12:50, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * @Carl, given your evolved opposition to your proposed removal, I suggest you withdraw the proposal and archive it. We need to start cleaning up a lot of the extraneous proposals currently pending, so we can sharpen our focus on higher priority discussions that will lead to needed removals from the list.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:22, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Remove Microgram
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Weak Support as nom, This one is used slightly more than the others because of its use in medicine Carlwev (talk) 10:51, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support:. --Igrek (talk) 20:07, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support. --Melody Lavender (talk) 14:10, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose: p  b  p  18:01, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose because of microgram's common usage in medicine and pharmacy. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:22, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Remove Nanosecond
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom Carlwev (talk) 10:51, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support:. --Igrek (talk) 20:07, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support. --Melody Lavender (talk) 14:11, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose: p  b  p  18:01, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose because of nanosecond's common usage in such areas as computer design and telecommunications. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:22, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Remove Nanometre
Support !votes Oppose !votes
 * 1) Support as nom Carlwev (talk) 10:51, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Support:. --Igrek (talk) 20:07, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Support. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:46, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Support. Jus  da  fax   21:13, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Support p  b  p  13:50, 29 May 2013 (UTC)