Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/4/Archive 47

Swap: Remove Babak Khorramdin, Add Mahmud of Ghazni and Muhammad of Ghor
There are a number of Mazdakist/neo-Zoroastrianist rebels against the Abbasid Caliphate besides Babak, the most notable of whom are Sunpadh and Al-Muqanna. None of these rebels are as vital as Mazdak himself, the Zoroastrian reformer who we don't list. Alp Arslan is another figure from this period of Persian history who's more important than Babak and isn't listed.

But I think the two most notable omissions from the history of Central Asia are Mahmud of Ghazni and Muhammad of Ghor, the first of the Muslim invaders of India. The former's repeated plunder of India allowed him to establish Ghazni as a cultural centre that rivalled Baghdad in its wealth and glory: scholars in his court included Al-Biruni and Ferdowsi. The latter laid the foundation for sustained Muslim domination of India by defeating Prithviraj Chauhan (who we added earlier) at the Second Battle of Tarain, a crucial turning-point in Islamic and Indian history. Both are considered national heroes of Pakistan.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Cobblet (talk) 08:14, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
 * 2) Support additions. Gizza  ( t )( c ) 09:05, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Neljack (talk) 03:34, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
 * 4) Support GuzzyG (talk) 18:56, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Prefer the first add more than the second - but still support.  Carl  wev   09:44, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 6) The additions only.--RekishiEJ (talk) 11:22, 19 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Opposition
 * 1) The removal. From the lede of the Babak article we know that he is vital at this level.--RekishiEJ (talk) 13:24, 19 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Discussion

Add Sub-Saharan African music traditions, Arabic music and Music of China
Probably the best articles to cover music in each of these areas. (North African music groups better with other Arab music traditions than with the music of Sub-Saharan Africa.) Most other significant world music traditions have some form of coverage already: we have Indian classical music and several Indian musicians; Latin music was proposed in the previous nomination and is also already represented by several performers and styles; and Southeast Asian music is represented by gamelan, by far its most important subgenre.
 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Cobblet (talk) 07:08, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
 * 2) Support --Thi (talk) 18:46, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Neljack (talk) 09:37, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * 4) To balance the list's coverage.--RekishiEJ (talk) 04:01, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support   Carl  wev   06:02, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Points although there is now consensus to add these articles and probably no point in opposing. Of the three, Chinese and Arabic music have some value IMO while Sub-Saharan African music is just too broad. An area bigger than Russia (nearly as big as North America) spanning 49 countries is too diverse to summarize into one article. It will always be structured like an outline or list. Gizza ( t )( c ) 02:42, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose I would rather list specific types of music than simply regional types of music. For example, I prefer an article like Rock and roll instead of Music of the United States. For China, there are many different groups of music to choose from, such as Heterophony, which is present in traditional Chinese music as well as in Arabic music and other eastern forms of music. Other choices include mandopop and Chinese rock. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 03:56, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion
 * Maybe, although the Britannica article dealing with this subject actually seems quite good (to me, anyway; as someone with no training in ethnomusicology I found it a fascinating read.) I think an overview along those lines would make more sense in the context of this list than trying to artificially elevate one particular genre of African music above all the rest, particularly when none of us appear to know much about the topic. Cobblet (talk) 07:41, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Add Nikolai Bukharin
The fact that he was considered to be the best theorist in the Bolshevik by Vladimir Lenin means that he is vital at this level.


 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 12:25, 18 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Opposition
 * 1) Oppose This list needs more than socialist theorists, which Rekishi has a habit of suggesting we add. Cobblet (talk) 05:00, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose --Thi (talk) 11:30, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose Gizza  ( t )( c ) 12:55, 29 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Discussion

Swap: Remove Ludmilla Tourischeva Add Olga Korbut
In gymnastics Ludmilla was a fine athlete, though not the most winning, and her article itself states that she was overshadowed by Olga Korbut at the Olympics who (as her article, which needs serious help goes into) innovated at that same event what became modern gymnastics by emphasising acrobatics and technique over its origins in ballet and dance. In addition to which Olga was the first gymastics hall of famer, before Nadia Comaneci who would never have happened if not for Olga, for her influence on the sport was far greater than Ludmilla to this day (and the scandal when her performance on the uneven bars, which "only" won silver leading to serious audience anger over its revolutionary aspects).


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom –– Lid(Talk) 06:09, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support equal Olympic gold but Korbut is the one who will be remembered in 50 years. She redefined the boundaries of what was humanly possible in the sport. Gizza  ( t )( c ) 06:50, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support I am persuaded that it was a mistake to remove Korbut. Neljack (talk) 10:13, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support per nom. Cobblet (talk) 20:15, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support As the person who nominated the removal i can support the swap. Sorry for the late response.GuzzyG (talk) 13:31, 19 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss
 * A retrospective news article explaining just how important Olga was to gymnastics from her performance in the 1972 Olympics. –– Lid(Talk) 23:27, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Just discovered that six months ago the article was removed from vital but looking at the discussion the reasoning for removal is especially specious. It's listed that she was the least accomplished/vital of the gymnasts listed but that is conclusively wrong. Olga Korbut is the most vital gymnast of the last fifty years, as established by her being the original gymnast Hall of Famer. Focusing purely on Olympic accomplishments and reducing Olga's contributions to "inventing the Korbut Flip" is utterly wrong when she is held as the pioneer of acrobatic gymnastics via performing in ways no one before had ever seen. The removal of this article originally is quite strange and seems to have not been based on anyone actually researching who Olga Korbut was or how gymnastics would not be gymnastics without her. –– Lid(Talk) 02:34, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Add Détente
A highly notable period during the Cold War. Though several peace treaties were ratified in the world, the proxy wars in Asia did not stop.


 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 11:20, 2 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose I don't see what this meaningfully adds to our coverage of the Cold War. Cobblet (talk) 12:35, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose Gizza  ( t )( c ) 12:25, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose --Thi (talk) 10:10, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Though West-Soviet trade became common during this period, and the Soviet-USA hotline was established, the proxy wars in Asia didn't go detente as well, and both the Soviet Union and USA still possessed nuclear missiles.--RekishiEJ (talk) 14:00, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion
 * Doesn't Cold War already cover all this? Cobblet (talk) 19:15, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

A "Cultural venues" section?
Does anyone else think it might be a good idea to move the articles under Vital articles/Expanded/Society and social sciences to the Arts section? After all, on level 3 museum is listed under arts and culture. I think a good idea might be to create a section called "cultural venues" which would contain the museums as well as opera house and music venue. We could adjust the quotas of the two subpages accordingly – exactly 20 articles would be moved from Society to Arts. Cobblet (talk) 07:29, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Can't agree with you more.--RekishiEJ (talk) 09:00, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Agree, there are several moves I think would be good, this is one of them. The only thing I was thinking is, The Sydney Opera House, is it not more notable for it's architecture than as a music venue? A vaguely similar discussion happened about whether the Sistine Chapel (or it's ceiling article) should be with paintings or architecture. Still think the move is good....... Also, changing the subject but, while on the topic of moves, I have for a long time wanted to have TV shows and Movies in the same section, probably arts. They are the same thing, and made the same way, both require writing, acting and filming, and only differ on where people watch them, (infact Telefilms also exist which blur the line even more, plus movies are shown on TV when they are older. Movies and Series can both be bought on Video/DVD/Other media) and whether they are usually stand alone or series. A small issue is that some TV shows are not fictional but factual, but factual books are still in literature. Writing or filming something factual is still an artform. And occasionally you do get factual/documentary movies too anyway, although they're rare. Both can have/be live action, animation or CGI, we list live action and animated movies and TV shows.  Carl  wev   11:07, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I wasn't going to move any of the buildings that are currently in the Architecture section. It's not just the Sydney Opera House: I added the Guggenheim Bilbao to the Architecture section since it was proposed for its architectural significance, but it bothers me that it's on a different subpage than the other art museums. I don't mind as much if they're in separate sections on the same subpage.
 * It seems more sensible to me to keep TV shows out of the Arts section since most aren't included for their artistic value, unlike the films. Cobblet (talk) 11:38, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
 * OK I still disagree, TV shows and movies are both often covered together in media studies, many writers, actors, directors producers do movie and TV as they are similar, they are both made the same way, written acted and filmed. At the moment, Tom and Jerry is in a different page to Bugs Bunny, when I would expect them to be near one another. Star Trek an Star Wars are in different sections when they too are very similar. Also Mario and Pokemon are in different sections. I know why it is, but it seems counter intuitive to me. TV shows are an artform like movies, probably more so than Dictionaries, Encyclopaedias and other fact books we have all within arts. Cartoon is also not in arts. I would probably move all mass media to arts, as it is all written and/or filmed and published/broadcast/distributed.  Carl  wev   10:27, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I totally get your point when it comes to Star Trek or Tom and Jerry (although now that you bring it up, why is Tom and Jerry on the list?), but I'm talking about stuff like 60 Minutes and The Tonight Show which really have no place being in an "Arts" section. Cobblet (talk) 12:29, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Add food processing, food additives and food safety

 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 13:05, 2 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Opposition

After several recent additions we now basically cover every specific aspect of food processing, except packaging and labeling (which I'd be happy to add, especially since the applications go far beyond food). For a high-level overview I'm more inclined to add food industry, now that we have a little room in the Society section. Also foodborne illness is listed which obviously has some overlap with food safety. It should also be noted that food additive does not cover food fortification or water fluoridation, both of which might be vital. Cobblet (talk) 19:07, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion
 * If food industry should be added then in the same logic arms industry, software industry and cultural industry should be added as well, and there are some more vital articles which should be added to the society and social sciences subpage of WP:VA/E, e.g. modernization theory and economic system, so we should add these articles first before adding articles about different types of industry.--RekishiEJ (talk) 05:09, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
 * What logic are you referring to? Processed food is one of the most common of manufactured goods, a significant component in any but the least developed of agricultural economies. (I should add that if others are happy to add food processing I'd go along with it as well.) The types of industry you mentioned are much more niche. Plus, the arms industry is covered by military-industrial complex; we've discussed adding software industry before; and I've never heard of "cultural industry" – do you mean the entertainment industry? BTW, I probably would've supplied the last !vote for modernization theory if you had bothered to write a decent explanation of why it's vital. But you shouldn't be surprised that people ignore your proposals when you either make no attempt to justify them at all, or make no sense on the occasions when you do try. Cobblet (talk) 08:48, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
 * OK, I changed my mind. Let's not add food industry to the list after adding modernization theory to it, but before adding modernization, now that it contains chemical industry, energy industry and automotive industry, which I didn't know until checking the subpage today after Cobblet's reply. But modernization still definitely should be added to the list.--RekishiEJ (talk) 11:10, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Add fried chicken
It is as vital as French fries, since both of them frequently appear in fast food.


 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 13:05, 2 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose That's simply not true. I don't see why fried chicken is any more vital than fried fish or roast chicken. Cobblet (talk) 19:32, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose --Thi (talk) 10:02, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose - And I'm in favor of removing French fries as well. Does not fit my definition of vital. Jus  da  fax   21:08, 13 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Discussion

Add fried fish and roast chicken
They are as vital as fried chicken.


 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 11:57, 1 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose Neither dish is as vital as fried chicken. There are successful global chains specializing in fried chicken unlike fried fish and roast chicken. Because of its history and the stereotypes associated with fried chicken, there is far more literature on it as well. And it gets triple the page views of fried fish and roast chicken combined. Gizza  ( t )( c ) 10:19, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose --Thi (talk) 10:02, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose - Hardly vital, in my view. Jus  da  fax   21:10, 13 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Discuss

Add housewife
No doubt it's crucial.


 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 15:45, 30 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose Housekeeping I could support; but adding this makes about as much sense as adding breadwinner. We already have wife and husband to cover traditional gender roles in the family. Cobblet (talk) 22:32, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

We have Domestic worker, similar role, but obviously not exactly the same thing.  Carl wev   16:22, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion

Add Call of Duty
One of the best-selling video game franchises of all time. Massively influences the modern first person shooter. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare is often hailed as a classic FPS. Swordman97 talk to me  05:50, 3 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support To me, it seems to be a good idea to include a violent video game on the list, since that is a massive genre these days. Call of Duty does just that, as the franchise expanded the genre. Not to mention the franchise's popularity. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 19:44, 11 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose I think our coverage of video games is fine as it is. Cobblet (talk) 21:46, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose --Thi (talk) 10:02, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose - per Cobblet. Jus  da  fax   21:13, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

The first sentence is definitely true. CoD is a best-selling franchise. Only sold less than Mario and Pokemon, both of which are listed so that's a strong point. Not so sure about the rest of the rationale. IMO, Doom, Half-Life and Space Invaders are much more influential shooting games. Gizza ( t )( c ) 10:42, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Discuss

If I were to think of something to add in the area of video games it might be something like Nintendo and/or Sony I would prefer them to Mario, Pokemon, Shigeru Miyamoto and Akio Morita. (Also on a similar rational; I would prefer listing The Walt Disney Company rather than Donald Duck, we already have Mickey Mouse)
 * FYI, User:Carlwev, not only do we list Donald Duck, we even have Carl Barks. Cobblet (talk) 23:55, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Add Samsung
Largest technology company in the world.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as per nom. Aeonx (talk) 01:06, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Samsung is pervasive enough to be on the list. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 22:22, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Weak Support There is an element of recentism in this (I look for longevity and would have been hesitant in adding Nokia and Myspace ten years ago) and technology companies are over-represented compared to other sectors. However there doesn't seem to be consensus to remove some of the weaker companies. Adding Samsung will be a nice addition for now. Gizza  ( t )( c ) 07:20, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Weak Support   Carl  wev   16:45, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support --Thi (talk) 20:06, 28 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Add geopolitics and geostrategy
Since the terms appear quite frequently in news media, and they are useful, hence they should be added to the list.


 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 09:36, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
 * 2) Support geopolitics This seems to be a spoken about term that appears enough in the media to be considered vital. I can't say the same about Geostrategy. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 03:10, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose Appear with less frequency and are less useful than the, which isn't listed. But seriously, I wouldn't regard any of the subfields of human geography as vital. In particular geopolitics is nowadays frequently just used as a synonym for international relations in general. Cobblet (talk) 10:28, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose As Cobblet says, something that appears frequently in news media is not vital. But these terms don't even appear frequently anymore nor are they useful at all. What benefits do these terms have when learning about politics and international relations?  Gizza  ( t )( c ) 04:25, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion

Swap: Remove Grass, Add Herbaceous plant
Grass has been converted into a redirect to the family Poaceae. Previously, the article discussed a plant life form also known by the jargony term "graminoid" (to distinguish it from the "true grasses" in Poaceae). In the broader sense, grass/graminoid usually includes the sedges and rushes with the true grasses. I previously successfully argued here for including sedges as we already had true grasses and rushes listed (I'd consider rushes the least vital of the three families).

Presently, we list four plant life forms: grass, tree, shrub and liana (more on the last below). Leaving aside liana, if there are 3 fundamental plant life forms, herbaceous plant covers the non-woody ones (herb is probably the more common term for them, but that article covers the culinary sense of "herb"). Herbaceous plant is a more general subject that includes grasses as well as forbs, so it seems appropriate to swap it for the redirect grass. But I'm not opposed to a straight removal of grass. Plantdrew (talk) 04:51, 27 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom Plantdrew (talk) 04:51, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support per nom. Gizza  ( t )( c ) 05:16, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support removal The swap is logical enough, but I don't really see a need to include the umbrella article on non-woody plants any more than I see a need to include the umbrella article on woody plants. Cobblet (talk) 08:02, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support removal  Carl  wev   12:39, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support I wish the page Grass did not become a redirect because that is going to confuse most Wikipedia readers. Nonetheless, it makes no sense to have a redirect on the list. Plus we also have Poaceae. I would want to add something along the lines of lawn as a decent replacement for grass. I support the addition because it is a decent overview article to have, since other types of plant life are already covered by specific articles. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 17:47, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
 * 6) Support removal - per above supports. The Herbaceous plants article is too short and should be the subject of a separate proposal. Suggest we remove, with the !vote at 6-0. Jus  da  fax   04:49, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 7) Support --Thi (talk) 10:02, 13 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Add cell biology
Is it acceptable that the list contains molecular biology but not cell biology?


 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 13:10, 18 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Opposition

Is there anything within cell biology nowadays that wouldn't also fall under the scope of molecular biology? Cobblet (talk) 18:20, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion

Add animal cognition
An interesting and vital topic, yet currently it does not belong to the list.


 * Support
 * 1) As nom. I'm surprised that it does not belong to the list!--RekishiEJ (talk) 11:52, 27 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Opposition
 * 1) Oppose Redundant to ethology and intelligence. Gizza  ( t )( c ) 07:53, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

I'd support swapping this in for intelligence, which is basically an umbrella article for human intelligence, animal cognition and artificial intelligence and the second one of these is the only topic we don't list separately. Cobblet (talk) 09:08, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion

Add Animal coloration
A topic no less vital than animal cognition.


 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 10:24, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support See comments below. Cobblet (talk) 09:55, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Gizza  ( t )( c ) 12:34, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support I would support Mimicry too.  Carl  wev   16:21, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support --Thi (talk) 11:38, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Gizza, I'd say animal communication and culture are indeed redundant with ethology, but for most animals colouration is first and foremost an inherited trait, not a behavioural one (except for chameleons, octopuses, etc.) There's no coverage of animal colouration in the articles on ethology, ecology or colour. Mimicry and aposematism are subtopics of animal colouration that have attracted just as much scientific interest as sexual dimorphism (which itself could be considered a subtopic of sex) and the study of bioluminescence ultimately led to the 2008 Nobel Prize in Chemistry (which has been nominated here before). But like you said, we don't have room to add all these subtopics: hence my suggestion to add the overview article. BTW, animal locomotion is listed and animal physiology redirects to physiology. Cobblet (talk) 09:55, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Opposition
 * 1) Oppose Redundant to ethology, ecology and colour. There are too many aspects of animals and animal behaviour to add all of them. E.g. animal communication, animal physiology, animal culture and animal locomotion. I'm willing to change my mind on these if you give a stronger rationale. OTOH, I'm more likely to support an article like sexual dimorphism, a more focused topic which many people including biologists such as Darwin have been curious about over the years.  Gizza  ( t )( c ) 08:07, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion
 * Thanks for that Cobblet. The more I thought about it, the more I realised this topic could very be vital but my oppose was strongly influenced by the ridiculous rationale. Being "no less vital than animal cognition" doesn't mean anything since animal cognition isn't listed. It's even worse than the "no less vital than (something listed)" which Rekishi generally uses. Gizza  ( t )( c ) 12:34, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Add chlorofluorocarbon

 * Support
 * 1) As nom. I'm surprised that it is not in the list!--RekishiEJ (talk) 14:14, 6 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose Swapped for ozone depletion a while back. We have no room to list chemicals that are being phased out of use. Cobblet (talk) 07:03, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose --Thi (talk) 10:04, 13 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Discussion

Add Magnesium chloride
The fact that this chemical compound has many applications, e.g. in making tofu means that it is vital.


 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 12:38, 22 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose We already list gypsum, the mineral most commonly used for this purpose (and much, much else besides). Cobblet (talk) 18:13, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose Being used to coagulate soy milk into tofu isn't vital. Tofu is listed and the article should discuss how it is produced. Gizza  ( t )( c ) 11:29, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose --Thi (talk) 10:04, 13 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Discussion

Add Standardization
The setting of technical standards is an easily-overlooked but important part of making commerce and trade more efficient. The closest thing to this we have on the list is interchangeable parts, which deals with similar issues but only within the context of a factory or manufacturing company.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Cobblet (talk) 19:37, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Good find. Standardization is one of the key developments that has furthered economic progress in the world. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 15:19, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support not bad, seems more sensible than multiple units of measurement in a way.   Carl  wev   15:39, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support --Thi (talk) 17:25, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Plantdrew (talk) 00:24, 20 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose

That fifth !vote is Plantdrew's. Cobblet (talk) 21:38, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion
 * Sorry about that. Plantdrew (talk) 00:24, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Remove Parrhasius (painter) and Zeuxis
There's not much written on either of them, none of their works survived into modern times. Half of what is written about them is doubtful, they are most well known from the quaint story of one painting grapes so realistic the birds tried to eat them, and the other painted curtains so realistic the other tried to open the curtains to see the painting only to realize his mistake that they were part of the painting. A quaint little story but hardly vital enough to include two more ancient Greeks for. I like the idea of having some ancient painters but it's so far back and undocumented that there's just not much to say, not enough to make them vital by far. We haven't bothered to list any ancient artist from other civilizations, be they Roman, Chinese, Indian, Persian, Arabic, Japanese or whatever. There are quite a lot of ancient Greeks across the biographies, and to me, these two don't seem the most important among Ancient Greeks, nor more important people among the painters. There appear to be second hand accounts of them described as the best artists of their time, but I imagine quite a few people might have been the best something of their day in their City/Kingdom, but like these haven't really survived the test of time very well. In their articles there is a list of Ancient Greek painters, most of those are also stubs, but one or two look slightly more significant than these two; namely Apelles, and he's not listed here.  Carl wev   00:57, 23 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom.  Carl  wev   00:57, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Not even the most significant of ancient Greek painters whose work is no longer extant: that would likely be Apelles, to whom da Vinci was compared. Copies of sculptures by Phidias and Praxiteles survive and they would at least be better choices, although I'm not really sure I'd support adding them. Cobblet (talk) 01:09, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support per above. Gizza  ( t )( c ) 04:21, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support --Thi (talk) 11:06, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Would've been better to swap these two with Apelles GuzzyG (talk) 03:41, 8 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) --RekishiEJ (talk) 08:13, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

If there's a missing Ancient person, I would think about who's missing it's Pliny the Elder. As far as I can tell he's never appeared in discussion as a possible addition, although someone attempted adding Natural History (Pliny) once, but never him. Much more vital than these two artists. He's a writer, philosopher, military commander, governor. Probably more significant writer? his adoptive son Pliny the Younger is quite significant, but not as much.  Carl wev   01:22, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion
 * Agreed. Also Neljack once suggested adding Livy. Cobblet (talk) 01:38, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Swap: Remove Darryl F. Zanuck, Add Filippo Brunelleschi
Hollywood producer whose accomplishments were outshone by those of David O. Selznick and Hal B. Wallis; versus the first modern architect and engineer, who rediscovered linear perspective and can be said to have begun the Italian Renaissance.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Cobblet (talk) 00:31, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support  Carl  wev   01:19, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 09:26, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support --Thi (talk) 14:14, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Prime example of what i said above. GuzzyG (talk) 03:41, 8 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose

Zanuck doesn't seem too vital, definitely an improvement. Sharing my thoughts, other people on my mind are Gustave Eiffel, Epicurus and Caligula.  Carl wev   01:19, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion
 * Caligula's listed; Eiffel's not bad but Brunelleschi's clearly ahead of him; Epicurus is good as well but Lucretius is significant too – maybe Epicureanism is an option. Cobblet (talk) 01:44, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I thought Epicurus was listed. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 09:26, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I'd support Eiffel and Epicurus, especially Epicurus. GuzzyG (talk) 03:41, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Remove France Prešeren
It's not clear to me that we should list any writers from Slovenia, let alone two (Ivan Cankar is the other one), when we do not list any modern writers from Greece (Nikos Kazantzakis), Bulgaria (Hristo Botev), or the other former republics of Yugoslavia.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Cobblet (talk) 22:01, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support  Carl  wev   23:21, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support --Thi (talk) 10:11, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support One's gotta go. GuzzyG (talk) 03:41, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support it is not absolutely clear to me which Slovene writer is more vital than the other but it is highly debatable whether we should have any at all when other Balkan writers like Marko Marulić, Petar II Petrović-Njegoš, Ivan Vazov and Ivo Andrić are missing. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 06:36, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Are you sure we should not remove Canker instead? Reading both of their legacy sections points me more towards Prešeren of the two. But yes two Slovene writers is extreme. GuzzyG (talk) 00:08, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure, but Britannica mentions twice that Cankar is the most translated Slovene author and that indicates to me that he may be the more significant of the two. Granted, both articles were written by the same person. Cobblet (talk) 00:32, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Add Pliny the Elder
Pretty significant writer, philosopher, commander, governor. Probably more a significant writer. Known for, among other things Natural History (Pliny), which itself was once nominated as an addition, although failed, the man himself is more sensible. Often quoted as a source from ancient Rome on a number of things. I'm not doing him must justice, check the article out. We are close to limit, however I have already suggested to remove 2 ancient Greek painters in a thread near by, which will compensate.  Carl wev   02:10, 23 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom.  Carl  wev   02:10, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Cobblet (talk) 02:37, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support quite a big omission. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 05:32, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) --RekishiEJ (talk) 08:10, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support --Thi (talk) 11:08, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 6) Support Rwessel (talk) 08:58, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 7) Support Piling on. GuzzyG (talk) 03:41, 8 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Add Ludwig Feuerbach
A philosopher who was noted for his critique of Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel's idealism and Christianity and influenced generations of later thinkers, e.g. Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels is no doubt vital at this level.


 * Support
 * 1) As nom. I'm surprised that he is not listed!--RekishiEJ (talk) 13:54, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support --Thi (talk) 09:52, 13 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose Not the next 19th-century German academic I'd add. Less influential in his field than Rudolf Virchow, Hermann von Helmholtz or Richard Dedekind were in theirs. Cobblet (talk) 02:24, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose There are more important philosophers that we don't list. Neljack (talk) 00:37, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 11:41, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Oppose Epicurus should be the next philosopher. GuzzyG (talk) 03:41, 8 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Discussion

Add Fethullah Gülen
A Muslim figure who is as influential as Karl Barth during Barth's time should definitely be added to the list, since both are equally vital.


 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 14:02, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support A good example of a Muslim Figure fighting for democracy in Turkey, as well as pursuing interfaith dialogue. He is vital to Turkish politics and world politics in general, given the massive controversy over Erdogan seizing power in Turkey. Good find. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 22:18, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support: Probably the type of person we should have. p  b  p  00:21, 13 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose Certainly shouldn't be added before Erdogan himself. And Erdogan is just one of many currently important Middle Eastern leaders who aren't on the list. Cobblet (talk) 02:30, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose --Thi (talk) 09:52, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose Not the next Turkish person to be added to the list. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 09:51, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Oppose If Erdogans not on here then this guy does not make it. GuzzyG (talk) 03:41, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Then let's add Erdogan, who plays a crucial role in West Asia like Putin in Russia.--RekishiEJ (talk) 16:01, 9 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Discussion
 * 1) I had proposed to add this article to the list, however later the proposal failed since no one other than me voted (cf. Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Expanded/Archive 46).--RekishiEJ (talk) 14:02, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Add Judas Maccabeus

 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 23:42, 23 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Replace Alexis Clairaut with Apollonius of Perga
Though the former is no unimportant, since he made notable contribution to geometry, astronomy and geophysics, he is still less vital than Apollonius, whose methodology and terminology influenced many later academics, and there are already two thousand articles in the people subpage, and there are still some vital figures not listed (e.g. Edgar Hoover and Yogi Berra).


 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 15:11, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support His "treatise Conics is one of the greatest scientific works from the ancient world.... Apollonius’s work inspired much of the advancement of geometry in the Islamic world in medieval times, and the rediscovery of his Conics in Renaissance Europe formed a good part of the mathematical basis for the scientific revolution." Cobblet (talk) 19:34, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support --Thi (talk) 21:09, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support  Carl  wev   06:07, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Apollonius was the first person in the world to make substantial discoveries in conics while Clairaut didn't do much. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 00:23, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Opposition


 * Discussion

Add history of Pakistan and history of Bangladesh
We have history of the Republic of India, but not these two articles in the list, which correspond to histories of another two strategically vital countries, which is quite strange. These two articles also have much more language editions than the article about modern India.


 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 10:56, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support history of Pakistan. Large areas of the country have had a history of civilization and many notable empires from Alexander to the British for over 5000 years. We can have it alongside history of ROI. Bangladesh is smaller in terms of recorded history, area and nowadays in population. I don't think it makes the cut. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 11:01, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support history of Pakistan. --Thi (talk) 20:02, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Pakistan  Carl  wev   17:50, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Cobblet (talk) 18:51, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Opposition


 * Discussion

Add history of Syria
We have history of Iraq, but not history of Syria in the list, which is quite strange.


 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 10:56, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Right now the Syrian civil war is affecting much of the planet, Iraq was/will(?). Seems important to me. History of the Middle East seems to stop around 2010, Arab Spring in 2013. A lot has happened since then. Sammy D III (talk) 15:38, 19 April 2016 (UTC) On second thought, after more reading, no other history seems that narrow. Sorry.  Sammy D III (talk) 21:46, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

History of Iraq is actually quite vital. From Mesopotamia to the Middle Ages and to the modern day, events within what is now Iraq have always had a disproportionate effect on the rest of the world. It shouldn't be lumped with the rest of the Middle East any more than Italy and Spain should be lumped together as Southern Europe. Syria is not quite at the same level as Iraq though. Gizza <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 12:23, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Opposition
 * 1) Oppose Not really that important, nor is history of Iraq for that matter. History of the Middle East pretty much covers both articles. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 22:13, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion
 * Really? Not just Iranian, Mesopotamian, Egyptian and Byzantine art but also Syrian one influenced Arabs a lot, creating Islamic art. Besides, Syria is a strategically vital country. Thus we can infer that history of Syria is as vital as history of Iraq.--RekishiEJ (talk) 11:35, 19 April 2016 (UTC) 11:36, 19 April 2016 (UTC) added a sentence

Add English literature
Huge omission, see argument above. Will try literature by language/nation/region one at a time, hope this is the first one, but not the only one.  Carl wev   12:49, 20 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom.  Carl  wev   12:49, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) --RekishiEJ (talk) 14:50, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Cobblet (talk) 19:52, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support --Thi (talk) 21:57, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 05:28, 23 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose

Note that this article covers English-language literature as a whole: it'll be less likely that we add American literature and British literature if this proposal passes. Cobblet (talk) 19:52, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion

Add Chinese literature

 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom.  Carl  wev   12:51, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) --RekishiEJ (talk) 14:50, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Cobblet (talk) 19:52, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support124.83.119.39 (talk) 11:45, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support --Thi (talk) 21:57, 20 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Add Spanish literature

 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom.  Carl  wev   12:51, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) --RekishiEJ (talk) 14:50, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Cobblet (talk) 19:52, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support --Thi (talk) 21:57, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support124.83.119.39 (talk) 11:46, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose

On the other hand, this article only covers the literature of Spain; Latin American literature is treated separately. Cobblet (talk) 19:52, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion

Add Indian literature

 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom.  Carl  wev   07:45, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) --RekishiEJ (talk) 09:40, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Cobblet (talk) 09:43, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support --Thi (talk) 11:13, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support124.83.119.39 (talk) 11:46, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Add Arabic literature

 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom.  Carl  wev   07:45, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) --RekishiEJ (talk) 09:40, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Cobblet (talk) 09:43, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support --Thi (talk) 11:13, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support124.83.119.39 (talk) 11:47, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Add Persian literature
The facts that it is described as one of the great literatures of mankind, and it has influenced the literature of many countries mean that it is no doubt vital at this level.


 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 10:52, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support  Carl  wev   13:02, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Cobblet (talk) 08:36, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support --Thi (talk) 20:03, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support124.83.119.39 (talk) 11:49, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Opposition


 * Discussion

Add French literature

 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 10:52, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support --Thi (talk) 11:13, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Cobblet (talk) 11:17, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support  Carl  wev   12:45, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support since French literature was among the leading literature during the Age of Enlightenment and was the lingua franca during particular periods in the 17th and 18th centuries, it is vital. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 09:20, 29 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Opposition


 * Discussion

Add German literature

 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 10:52, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support --Thi (talk) 11:13, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Cobblet (talk) 11:17, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support  Carl  wev   12:45, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support124.83.119.39 (talk) 11:50, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Opposition


 * Discussion

Add Russian literature

 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 10:52, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support --Thi (talk) 11:13, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Cobblet (talk) 11:17, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support  Carl  wev   12:46, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support124.83.119.39 (talk) 11:51, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Opposition


 * Discussion

Add Ancient Greek literature

 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Cobblet (talk) 21:25, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support  Carl  wev   21:41, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support --Thi (talk) 07:51, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support124.83.119.39 (talk) 11:51, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Plantdrew (talk) 23:12, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Add Latin literature

 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 10:52, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support --Thi (talk) 11:14, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support  Carl  wev   13:07, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Cobblet (talk) 21:25, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support vital as Latin was the predominant literary medium in Europe for over 1000 years. Most of what was important in this vast corpus cannot be listed individually here. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 11:49, 3 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Opposition


 * Discussion

Add Latin American literature

 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 10:52, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support --Thi (talk) 11:14, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Cobblet (talk) 11:17, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support  Carl  wev   11:56, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support124.83.119.39 (talk) 11:51, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Opposition


 * Discussion

Add African literature

 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk)
 * 2) Support --Thi (talk) 11:14, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Cobblet (talk) 11:17, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support  Carl  wev   11:57, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support124.83.119.39 (talk) 11:52, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Opposition


 * Discussion

Add Japanese literature

 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 10:52, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support --Thi (talk) 11:14, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Cobblet (talk) 11:17, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support  Carl  wev   12:46, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support124.83.119.39 (talk) 11:52, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Opposition


 * Discussion

Remove Stranger in a Strange Land
The book has not stood the test of time. Examples of criticism:


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. --Thi (talk) 20:10, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support One of the original contributors to the list was clearly a huge fan of science fiction; it's a disproportionately well-represented genre. Cobblet (talk) 20:36, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support  Carl  wev   04:29, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Certainly not the most important post 1950 sci fi novel, but the only one now on the list. Dune would be a better choice. Plantdrew (talk) 16:17, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 05:57, 23 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Remove Post-theism
A definition of rare term. --Thi (talk) 07:58, 24 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) As nom. --Thi (talk) 07:58, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Cobblet (talk) 08:37, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support  Carl  wev   10:06, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 12:58, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support PointsofNoReturn (talk) 05:54, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose

Yeah, rarely used. Covered in part by the listed atheism, agnosticism and History of religions.  Carl wev   10:06, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion

Swap: Remove cyan and magenta, Add CMYK color model
The significance of these colours is limited to printing, which is summarized in the model article.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 13:37, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Cobblet (talk) 19:35, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support --Thi (talk) 20:06, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Do we really need specific colors in the list at all? Rwessel (talk) 20:28, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Yes, but just primary and secondary colours.--RekishiEJ (talk) 13:14, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 6) Why should primary or secondary article be in the list? What makes an article on the color red important?  I've read the lengthy article, and it's basically a long, if well written, list of how the color has been used through the centuries.  Why is that vital?  Rwessel (talk) 18:55, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 7) Support Plantdrew (talk) 02:40, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 8) The addition.--RekishiEJ (talk) 13:14, 2 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) The removal, since both cyan and magenta are primary colours.--RekishiEJ (talk) 13:14, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

CMYK color model, RGB color model, subtractive color, additive color; while CMYK is clearly the reason cyan and magenta ended up one the list, I'm not seeing why it's the one most deserving of listing out of these four. Makes more sense if we list the most common additive color model to go with the most common subtractive. Plantdrew (talk)
 * Discussion

Add Mortgage loan
Like pension that was added long time ago, unlike paintings or TV shows, Mortgages actually have a big impact on how/where millions of people and families live, and if they can own their own home or not. For some reason not really covered in formal education, in my experience, unless one goes into specialized further education. All the more reason why one would want to read about it. Effects directly millions of people a lot, and many billions of dollars are traded within mortgages, often the biggest purchase/contract the average person will make in their life.  Carl wev   16:38, 23 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom.  Carl  wev   16:38, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Cobblet (talk) 20:27, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support yes definitely. I just checked the archives and observed that I've mentioned mortgage three times over the past 18 months. To be honest, more important than pension which is partially covered by welfare and retirement (not that it matters). The most related articles to mortgage are debt and property but they're much larger topics. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 11:10, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support --Thi (talk) 20:10, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Rwessel (talk) 20:29, 28 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Swap: Remove Assamese language, Add Pala Empire
Alternative to above.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 00:01, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
 * 2) Support This swap clearly improves our coverage of the culture of northeast India. The Pala Empire constitutes the high point of Buddhist influence in India and can be considered a golden age in Bengal's history. We list plenty of languages already (especially those of India) and the Assamese language is one of the weakest choices on the list. Cobblet (talk) 02:17, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
 * 3) Support - The swap makes sense, given the 300 year history of the Pala Empire. Jus  da  fax   04:40, 13 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Remove Soul Train
Not very well known outside the US. The show was influential, but it was cancelled in 2006. --Thi (talk) 16:39, 22 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) As nom. --Thi (talk) 16:39, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support  Carl  wev   16:48, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support At the very least I'd prefer listing something like Motown or MTV instead. Cobblet (talk) 20:23, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Motown is a better choice. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 02:33, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Plantdrew (talk) 02:00, 29 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Add extremism

 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 15:12, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support One of the biggest issues facing the world today, primarily with Islamic Extremism, but also extremism in politics, with people such as Donald Trump and Jean Marie Le Pen on the right, and some candidates on the left (possible that Bernie Sanders is a good example, but I will leave that out since it is irrelevant to the discussion). Either way, full support. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 17:42, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Opposition
 * 1) Oppose Not an ideology any more than centrism is an ideology. Whether you think Trump or Sanders are extremists depends on where you stand on the political spectrum; it's not an objective label. Political views outside the mainstream have always existed; it's a resurgence of nationalism, xenophobia and protectionism that has polarized the current political climate in the West, and it's specific issues related to those ideas that should appear on the list – free trade/economic integration for example. Cobblet (talk) 20:58, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose Per Cobblet. Extremism is just a term without any real meaning. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 11:54, 13 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Discussion

Add electoral fraud

 * Support


 * 1) As nom. I'm quite surprised that it is not in the list!--RekishiEJ (talk) 08:28, 23 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose No need when there is already election, fraud and corruption listed. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 12:09, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose Cobblet (talk) 22:48, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion

Add Hypnosis
We added Aleister Crowley, I think this topic is of more interest to the area of occult and mysticism. But it's also interesting from a psychology point of view as there appears to be some truth to the concept of hypnosis as well, I think both general readers and more specialist would appreciate covering this topic, and find it important. It's been used in entertainment, for many years, old side shows and modern TV shows, and it's used or attempted in recalling events and for overcoming psychological issues with mixed results too.  Carl wev   16:19, 23 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom.  Carl  wev   16:19, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Cobblet (talk) 20:32, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 01:53, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support --Thi (talk) 11:33, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support124.83.119.39 (talk) 11:54, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Add Census
Well, they're important today, tried numerous times at other points in history with various levels of success from Romans like Census of Quirinius and also Domesday Book (you could argue a case for the Domesday Book itself) among others. We have numerous article on statistics that are more specialized this one is a bit more known, to the general reader, and effects and is known to most people today. Most countries have them periodically, especially in the West. Statistics is at present a vital 100 article; censuses are how many statistics on people come about. We include several articles on official government things like election etc, census fits in well.  Carl wev   02:49, 23 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom.  Carl  wev   02:49, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Finally, a proposal in this section that's undeniably vital. One of a government's most basic and yet most complex tasks. Cobblet (talk) 02:52, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support per above. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 03:00, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) --RekishiEJ (talk) 08:05, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support --Thi (talk) 11:16, 23 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose

We have Surveying listed, but that is to do with land surveying with measuring distances etc, a different topic.
 * Discussion

Add Tendon
The musculoskeletal system seems to have less articles than other systems, although we probably shouldn't be listing many individual bones or muscles (except major important ones like skull and spine etc) a few more articles for a tissue type could help. Study of tendons, how to look after them, how they are injured, how they work, is of interest of several fields, namely sport, medicine, biology and similar fields...We list Connective tissue, but I think we can add this too. There is also ligament which is unlisted, and there is also cartilage, joint and Muscle contraction which we do list.  Carl wev   02:27, 2 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support  Carl  wev   02:27, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Cobblet (talk) 02:31, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Rwessel (talk) 05:03, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support per nom. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 12:00, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support PointsofNoReturn (talk) 05:56, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Opposition


 * Discussion

Add antibody

 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 11:22, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support  Carl  wev   16:24, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Cobblet (talk) 21:00, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 02:37, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support --Thi (talk) 14:16, 3 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Opposition

We do have White blood cell and immune system. However Blood and immune system are in the vital 1000 too, expanding the area for the vital 10,000 doesn't seem too unreasonable, and it's an important topic, which many of us would have covered at school/college.  Carl wev   16:24, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion
 * Articles like the ones you mentioned are not going to cover topics like the use of monoclonal antibodies in biotechnology and medicine. The significance of this topic is much more than it just being another component of the immune system. Cobblet (talk) 21:48, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Add sports injury

 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 09:18, 19 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose Cobblet (talk) 17:38, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 03:55, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose --Thi (talk) 10:03, 13 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Discussion

Add blood transfusion

 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 14:00, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support  Carl  wev   15:36, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Cobblet (talk) 20:40, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support --Thi (talk) 11:38, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support PointsofNoReturn (talk) 02:53, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Opposition

I see we list, organ transplant which mentions this but only briefly. There is an article we don't list: Blood donation it's pretty decent and may be worth considering, but probably not if blood transfusion is added. Also...coincidentally I was only earlier today thinking about blood type which we don't list either (whilst looking at this page which is much further from perfect than we are here at this project, but may have a few articles to think about.) Blood type might be worth discussing too, but being aware of overlap though? Lastly I also checked tissue transplant and it redirects to organ transplant which we have.  Carl wev   15:36, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion
 * Blood donation and blood type are definitely also articles worth considering, but I felt that blood transfusion was the topic that makes the other two important, so it should go first. Cobblet (talk) 20:40, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Add blood type

 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 08:03, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support  Carl  wev   12:19, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support --Thi (talk) 11:39, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support PointsofNoReturn (talk) 03:19, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Cobblet (talk) 05:12, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Opposition


 * Discussion

Add Anemia
While we're talking about blood donation and the like, how about adding the most common kind of blood disease?


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Cobblet (talk) 07:16, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support  Carl  wev   09:45, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support --Thi (talk) 14:19, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 10:10, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support PointsofNoReturn (talk) 03:19, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose

Article states it effects one quarter of the world population, causes about 200,000 deaths a year.  Carl wev   09:45, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion

Remove Field (agriculture)
Pretty much same argument as crop below, is only a parcel of agricultural land. Nothing to add that is not at agriculture or the animals or crops in the field. This is no more interesting than Land lot for real estate which we don't have.  Carl wev   23:26, 22 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom.  Carl  wev   23:26, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support From an earth-science point of view there's more to be said about something like shrubland. From an agricultural point of view I would prefer a topic like ranch that overlaps less with the other items on the list. Cobblet (talk) 23:37, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 05:24, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support --Thi (talk) 11:39, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Plantdrew (talk) 02:49, 29 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Remove Escarpment
A cliff formed at a Fault (geology), We list cliff, and we list Fault (geology). We don't list Coastal erosion that causes coastal cliffs.  Carl wev   03:31, 23 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom.  Carl  wev   03:31, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Cobblet (talk) 03:54, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 05:24, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support --Thi (talk) 11:39, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Plantdrew (talk) 02:49, 29 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Add Lava
Volcano is in the vital 1000 so can be expanded upon here. We have Magma, but lava covers different ground. We also list individual volcanoes. It's lava flows that destroy peoples homes, and that people are untested in studying. We list over 40 kinds of rock/stone/gem, some not too known like Pyroxene, so I'm sure lava is of higher interest. We used to list lava dome I believe which was too specific a topic. But I think Lava is vital at this level though.  Carl wev   03:41, 23 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom.  Carl  wev   03:41, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support if for no reason than because the article explains two of my favourite words: aa and pahoehoe. Cobblet (talk) 03:54, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 05:24, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support --Thi (talk) 11:16, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Plantdrew (talk) 02:49, 29 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Remove promontory
A promontory, which is a raised area of land abrupt on one side and projecting over water or a lowland on the other, doesn't look vital to me. There are interesting articles that we either continually suggest to remove or haven't suggested to add like geyser or wildfire respectively, while there are articles like these that have no purpose being here. I couldn't find any other encyclopedia that has an article on promontories.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 09:10, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support  Carl  wev   09:31, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Cobblet (talk) 10:55, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Rwessel (talk) 06:40, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support --Thi (talk) 14:19, 3 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose

Like you said not very well known term, I never heard the term at all in college doing geography, never heard it until here, Hill, cliff, peninsular could be a promontory, and are all included and more well known and would cover most of the same information. I think it had been brought up before.  Carl wev   09:31, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion
 * It just occurred to me: we don't have landslide. Cobblet (talk) 10:55, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Add Wildfire
Basic and common type of natural disaster.
 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Cobblet (talk) 05:56, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support the most dangerous type of natural disaster in warm and almost semi-arid climates. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 06:17, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support  Carl  wev   09:51, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Rwessel (talk) 06:40, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support --Thi (talk) 14:20, 3 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Add Landslide
As above. Probably more common and destructive than avalanche.
 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Cobblet (talk) 05:56, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support per nom. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 06:18, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support  Carl  wev   09:51, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Rwessel (talk) 06:40, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support --Thi (talk) 14:20, 3 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Add Agricultural subsidy
I think that this highly contentious thing is vital enough to be listed at the Level 4 List.


 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 09:16, 19 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose Cobblet (talk) 17:38, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose Add subsidy first, a legitimate topics in economics, which also complements the already listed tariff. This is just a common example. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 03:54, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion

Remove Crop
Nice idea and nice word, but article says it's any cultivated plant, animal fungus etc. "Cultivated" is hyperlinked to Agriculture in the article. The article has been stubby for ages, and I don't see what we could really add to it without replicating text from agriculture, or just listing many crops and copying content from the said crops articles.  Carl wev   17:51, 22 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom.  Carl  wev   17:51, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Cobblet (talk) 20:48, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support. Agree. It is nearly impossible to write a full length article about crops itself rather than particular crops. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 01:12, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support --Thi (talk) 11:17, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Plantdrew (talk) 02:29, 29 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose

I feel the same way about Field (agriculture). I'd prefer having specific topics like crop rotation or center pivot irrigation. Cobblet (talk) 20:48, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion

Add submachine gun
Though submachine guns are now mostly replaced by assault rifles, they are frequently used in the first half of the 20th century, and they are still used by some military special forces and militarized police units, hence it is still vital.


 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 08:41, 8 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose Cobblet (talk) 08:47, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose --Thi (talk) 10:33, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose only used for a brief period. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 01:04, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Modern infantry weapons are already well represented but if another article were to be added, I prefer something different and interesting like flamethrower. Gizza <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 03:56, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion

Remove Capital ship
A concept that's covered by warship – I don't see a reason to list it separately. We already list all the types of ships that have historically received this designation.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Cobblet (talk) 17:44, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support --Thi (talk) 10:32, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support  Carl  wev   10:34, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support 16:41, 19 April 2016 (UTC) (Plantdrew)
 * 5) Support Rwessel (talk) 18:53, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 6) Support sea captain would be a better choice although still probably not vital. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 01:07, 23 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Oppose or Opposition
And for today's tempest in a teapot... Should the "against" subsection in each discussion item be titled "oppose" or "opposition"? I just noticed that there were a bunch of the latter, and one just got changed from "oppose", although it makes a poor parallel with "support". Rwessel (talk) 23:49, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Look at the practice of WP:RFA. Cobblet (talk) 00:50, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, as near as I can tell, Oppose is near universal. Didn't just want to go and do a global find/replace in case I was missing something.  Rwessel (talk) 02:27, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

IP users' votes
They should be regarded as invalid, since IP users no doubt have no right to vote. However 10 proposals got passed for having five support votes (every one contains a support vote by an IP user) and no opposing ones, which should still be unpassed according to the rule. Hope that these proposals will be de-passed and remove the votes made by the IP user.--RekishiEJ (talk) 15:08, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

I thought the same thing, although I try to trust everyone, unless given reason not to, it could in theory be anyone of us voting an additional time whilst logged out on purpose. However looking at the IP's edit history [] I noticed they have edited this article[], that has been edited several times by User:Gonzales John, so I presumed it was Gonzales who forgot to log in. I also noticed Gonzales hasn't voted under that name on the threads the IP has. It's only a presumption. Maybe we should ask them? .  Carl  wev   16:16, 12 May 2016 (UTC)


 * .......I have just left a message on Gonzales's talk page asking if the IP is them. I don't recall an IP voting before now, or the issue of possible IP votes coming up in discussion. I will probably just go with consensus myself. It kind of makes sense to not count them, due to the possibility of "sockpuppets". I do recall one or two actual usernames that had voted on a few threads here, that had been discredited due to them having not much edit history other than this project and/or them having already been warned or blocked for previous behavior elsewhere. An argument could also be made that we should be open to all including those without accounts. I don't know what Wikipedias guidelines are for this if they exist, we should maybe find out if we think this might be an issue.
 * I've messaged the IP. Cobblet (talk) 17:04, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Gonzales has replied on his talk page. He says he forgot to log in and the IP edits are him. . We could still discus the potential issue, although we haven't had much issue with it in the past though so it may be wasted effort preparing for a problem that never comes up.  Carl  wev   09:33, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Remove Charles Laughton
Not as great a stage actor as Ralph Richardson or Paul Scofield (both cut from the list years ago) and just one of many talented film actors of his generation (we've never considered listing Fredric March, William Powell or Paul Muni).


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Cobblet (talk) 08:33, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support  Carl  wev   09:24, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support --Thi (talk) 12:31, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support nowhere near as famous as Laurence Olivier. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 13:47, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support p  b  p  14:05, 24 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Remove Henry Irving
Compare Alfred, Lord Tennyson (11 times as many page views) or Mary Shelley (15 times as many).


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Cobblet (talk) 08:33, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support  Carl  wev   09:24, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support --Thi (talk) 12:31, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Irving was supposedly the inspiration for Dracula but it's much better to add Dracula. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 11:06, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support (but pageviews aren't the best determiner) p  b  p  14:05, 24 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose

I don't necessarily mind keeping one of Burbage, Garrick or Irving (we've also removed Edmund Kean in the past), but having all three is definitely overkill when you see all the other names in other fields we've passed by. Cobblet (talk) 08:33, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion

Off topic, but Drucula... We have the character, Count Dracula listed. We do not list the Novel, Dracula, or the author Bram Stoker. It's already represented, it definitely should be represented, but by how many articles and which article(s) we can discus, alter or leave if we wish. An argument could be made for any of them. Compare with Frankenstein, vaguely similar but bit different, where we'll probably be adding the author soon and we don't have the character(s) listed but the novel itself instead is. (which seems better in that case)
 * I prefer keeping the status quo. Vampire is on the list too. Cobblet (talk) 16:29, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Remove Carl Barks
We already list his creation Donald Duck, but I'm not sure if we need that either. We don't even list the huge company itself, The Walt Disney Company, that is a big player like others we do list like Apple Inc, The Walt Disney Company, Coca-Cola among others. Nor do we list other illustrators/animators William Hanna, Joseph Barbera or Stan Lee, who seem a bit more significant. Nor do we list the creator of Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck and more Tex Avery.  Carl wev   13:04, 20 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom.  Carl  wev   13:04, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Cobblet (talk) 17:46, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support p  b  p  14:05, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support per Carlwev and Cobblet. Being the creator of the Disney ducks and not much else isn't that important in the scheme of things. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 09:53, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Neljack (talk) 09:38, 3 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose Only Charles Schulz is more important 20th-century artist (The Comics Journal 1999) in his genre (comics, not graphic novels like Maus). --Thi (talk) 21:55, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose - I am not going as far as Thi, but Barks is worthy of staying vital, as I see it. Jus  da  fax   05:36, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

First, I'd argue the distinction between comics and graphic novels is pretty artificial – it's no secret the latter term was invented in the hopes that more people would take the genre seriously. Carl Barks's works are undoubtedly more popular, but I'd say someone like George Herriman was more influential. Cobblet (talk) 23:55, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion

Add Eugène Delacroix
The most important artist not already listed. His work marks the beginning of Romanticism in art and foreshadows that of the Impressionists and post-Impressionists.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Cobblet (talk) 04:34, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support   Carl  wev   04:46, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support --Thi (talk) 11:07, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Another one we are missing. We are missing so many i thought were in, i've been thinking we should cut some figures from sport down to possibly 100 and actors down to 40 to match actresses, we are missing some important scientists from centuries ago in favour of entertainers from the last 50 years with as of yet unseen lasting value. GuzzyG (talk) 03:41, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support p  b  p  14:05, 24 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Add François Rabelais
I realize we're very close to the quota, but we cannot afford to omit such an important writer in the Western canon.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Cobblet (talk) 01:01, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support as nom. --Thi (talk) 11:52, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support not as nom.  Carl  wev   18:38, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Thought he was in. GuzzyG (talk) 13:31, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support p  b  p  14:05, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Add Guy de Maupassant
One of the fathers of the modern short story. --Thi (talk) 11:22, 25 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. --Thi (talk) 11:22, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support I can support this. GuzzyG (talk) 03:41, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support It seems to me that French literature remains underrepresented: I'd support the addition of Chateaubriand, Germaine de Staël and George Sand as well. Cobblet (talk) 00:20, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Agree with nom. I believe Germaine de Staël is significant as well.  --David Tornheim (talk) 06:19, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 05:52, 28 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Add Mary Shelley
It's remarkable that we list so many science fiction writers of the 20th century (Asimov, Bradbury, Clarke, Dick, Heinlein) and yet the author of Frankenstein, arguably the novel that started the whole genre, and whose biography gets more views than Heinlein's, Bradbury's or Clarke's, is ignored. I don't see how that's fair.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Cobblet (talk) 23:49, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Agreed. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 05:39, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support --Thi (talk) 09:25, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support  Carl  wev   15:39, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support per nom. 10:36, 11 May 2016 (UTC) Gizza
 * 6) Support Rwessel (talk) 20:29, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 7) Support Necessary add. p  b  p  00:06, 13 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Remove Ingvar Kamprad
IKEA is not on the list, the company could be better choice. --Thi (talk) 11:29, 25 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. --Thi (talk) 11:29, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support per nom. Iamozy (talk) 12:55, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support p  b  p  14:05, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Neljack (talk) 09:43, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Cobblet (talk) 14:47, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Add Epicurus
A more significant article than many philosophers and other biographies we list. Significant work, often firsts, or at least very early, in ideas and philosophy of ethics, suffering, happiness, mortality, soul, death, god(s), free will, good and evil, and early ideas about atoms, space and the cosmos. The article describes him much better than me. There is school of philosophy named after his ideas called Epicureanism, that is a substantial article too. I did hesitate as to which to choose, my instincts said the man himself, and the biography does appear in almost double languages compared to the other, suggesting this is the better choice.


 * Support
 * 1) As nom.  Carl  wev   13:05, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Per nom. Surprised Epicurus was omitted. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 13:20, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Epicurus or Epicureanism or both. --Thi (talk) 19:53, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support - Per nomination. Undoubtedly vital.  Jus  da  fax   05:42, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Neljack (talk) 09:31, 3 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose


 * Discuss

Add Henry Dunant
Founder of the Red Cross and driving force behind the establishment of the Geneva Convention. Co-winner of the first Nobel Peace Prize. Unsuccessful as a businessman, but still more vital than most of the fabulously wealthy businesspeople we list.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Cobblet (talk) 00:01, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support --Thi (talk) 09:25, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support - if the Red Cross is level-3 vital, it makes sense to make Dunant level-4 vital. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 11:00, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support  Carl  wev   15:58, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Neljack (talk) 09:34, 3 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Replace Williams sisters with Serena Williams
We list Jimi Hendrix and not his band, we list Eric Clapton but not either of his bands. Yes they were initially prominent as partners but Serena has increasingly approached extreme notability for her later singles career and i feel listing this is like listing Big Four (tennis) instead of Federer and Nadal. GuzzyG (talk) 03:41, 8 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. GuzzyG (talk) 03:41, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support per nom. Not fair to Serena to list her as part of a duo. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 04:08, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support It's now obvious that Serena has been the more dominant player. Cobblet (talk) 04:23, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support  Carl  wev   05:05, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support --Thi (talk) 12:34, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 6) Support Fair enough. Venus Williams' vitality is marginal, but Serena Williams is definitely vital. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 05:40, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Opposition


 * Discussion

Add Human genome
A topic of obvious general interest.
 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Cobblet (talk) 21:13, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support, would support genome too  Carl  wev   21:52, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support --Thi (talk) 07:52, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support per nom. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 13:00, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support - Clearly vital. Jus  da  fax   06:06, 26 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose

Our coverage of genetics remains pretty weak. No population genetics nor genotype/phenotype, dominance (genetics), Hardy–Weinberg principle. No genome, ploidy, DNA repair, regulation of gene expression, epigenetics, horizontal gene transfer, genomics. No recombinant DNA, molecular cloning or even DNA sequencing. Nothing on medical genetics or eugenics. There's a lot to think about; we could really use some expertise here. Cobblet (talk) 21:13, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion

I will support this, but I see we don't even list genome itself, normally (not always) we've done general before human. Is there a reason you didn't suggest genome? it looks very significant to me. Some of those others seem decent enough to discus. I think we had horizontal gene transfer in the vital 1000 at one point, and I suggested it be removed. I wasn't aware it was missing here.  Carl wev   21:52, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * You could potentially argue that articles like gene, genetics, chromosome and so forth are all talking about different aspects of the genome and maybe we don't need this specific word on the list (I noticed that Britannica does not have an entry for it), particularly if you add genomics as well – arguably that's like listing both cell and cell biology or evolution and evolutionary biology (which is not necessarily a bad idea, but we're not doing it right now.) Also newly coined terms ending in -ome and -omics are all the rage in molecular biology right now so I'm personally a little hesitant to propose adding genome – in the end I'm not a biologist, although I do have some education in the area. Cobblet (talk) 22:12, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Add Brainstem

 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 14:19, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Basic parts of the brain should be added. Cobblet (talk) 20:26, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support --Thi (talk) 11:34, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support - per Cobblet. Jus  da  fax   05:53, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 09:26, 2 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Opposition


 * Discussion

Add Cerebellum

 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 15:17, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support  Carl  wev   16:20, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Cobblet (talk) 20:26, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support --Thi (talk) 11:35, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support - No brainer. Jus  da  fax   05:54, 26 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Opposition

Not sure how many sections of the brain we should have, they are covered by brain a bit, but brain is an important and wide topic that could use more space than one article, and in the vital 1000 too, so makes sense to expand. I'll support some of these, thinking about the others  Carl  wev   16:20, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion
 * Compare our coverage of the rest of the nervous system. The brain should probably get about an equal amount of attention. Cobblet (talk) 20:26, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I noticed we don't list nerve, although we list nervous tissue and nervous system and neuron so maybe we don't need too?  Carl  wev   22:06, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I suspect that if you talked to a neuroscientist (I've never studied this stuff beyond high school) they would consider topics like action potential and neuroglia to be more useful additions. Cobblet (talk) 23:00, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Add Cerebral cortex

 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 15:28, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support  Carl  wev   16:21, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support --Thi (talk) 18:41, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Cobblet (talk) 20:26, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support - Let's add it. Jus  da  fax   05:59, 26 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Opposition


 * Discussion

Add Cerebrum

 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 15:33, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Cobblet (talk) 20:26, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support --Thi (talk) 11:35, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support - Jus  da  fax   06:01, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 09:27, 2 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Opposition


 * Discussion

Add Circadian rhythm
We currently have nothing on chronobiology. This is the most important of the various biological rhythms.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Cobblet (talk) 05:56, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support  Carl  wev   11:36, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 13:38, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support --Thi (talk) 14:18, 22 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support - per nom. Jus  da  fax   05:51, 26 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose

I'll support this, sleep is in the vital 100, and has not been expanded as much as other vital 100 topics have. A while back I contemplated insomnia and/or sleep disorder. Effects many people and expands on the topic of sleep again. (Out of the 2 Sleep disorder is wider and parent topic, but very listy.)  Carl  wev   11:36, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion

Add Carnivorous plant and cultigen

 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 14:53, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Carniverous plant.  Carl  wev   16:35, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support carnivorous plant. It's a well-known and unique way in which certain plants obtain nutrition; it's probably of much greater general interest than many of the plant species and taxa we list. Cobblet (talk) 20:45, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support carnivorous plant Plantdrew (talk) 02:26, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Carniverous plant. --Thi (talk) 14:17, 3 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Opposition
 * 1) Oppose cultigen. It seems to me that cultivar is the more vital concept and that's already listed. Cobblet (talk) 20:45, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Carnivorous plants I kind of would expect to find in an encyclopedia, and it's an interesting topic to experts and general readers. The well known Venus fly trap crossed my mind years ago, but after reading about it, although is present as a decent article in quite a few languages, it's too small a region and effect on people and environment to have really, appearing only on a tiny area on the USA east coast. Carnivorous plant though as an overview is more sensible, and according to article may have evolved at least nine times independently, which is more than I was aware....Have to think of cultigen, seems important at first kind of, does anything else cover it? we have many of the cultigens themselves.  Carl wev   16:35, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion

I've been having a hard time deciding on cultigen. There's a formal process in having a plant recognized as a cultivar, and there's a lot of diversity in cultivated plants that isn't covered by the term cultivar. Landraces and heirloom plantss likely aren't formal cultivars. Cultigen serves as an umbrella term, but it's really not a very commonly used concept. And the cultigen article is pretty terrible. Ultimately, I think domestication (already on the vital list) gets at the meat of the matter. A cultigen is a domesticated plant (or one well on the road to domestication). Plantdrew (talk) 02:26, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Added: was unsure of placement, placed with tree shrub etc, as not a species or family but a type of plant among several genera. Can't really put near carnivore, as that's under zoology, animal study, and this is obviously a plant topic.  Carl wev   19:13, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Moved under botany since this is more about plant behaviour and evolution than anatomy. Cobblet (talk) 19:43, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Add Cell cycle

 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 14:54, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support I think it's appropriate to include a high-level overview of the cell cycle if you're not going to list every one of its component phases (mitosis being just one of them, albeit the most notable one). The cell biology section should not focus only on cellular structure. Cobblet (talk) 20:32, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support --Thi (talk) 14:18, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support  Carl  wev   10:56, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 10:14, 24 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Opposition

Not sure yet, have mitosis which covers very similar ground.  Carl wev   16:27, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion

Add Bipedalism and Quadrupedalism

 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 14:00, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support bipedalism. An extremely notable example of convergent evolution – a big part of why dinosaurs and humans have done so well in evolutionary terms. Cobblet (talk) 20:37, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support bipedalism.  Carl  wev   02:50, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support bipedalism. --Thi (talk) 11:38, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support bipedalism. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 00:20, 1 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Opposition
 * 1) Oppose quadrupedalism. It's specifically the evolution of bipedalism from quadrupedalism that's worth singling out. Other body plans for animal locomotion should be sufficiently well covered in that article. Cobblet (talk) 20:37, 22 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Discussion

Add Hypericum

 * Support as nom. Large and notable genus of plant. Fritzmann2002 14:43, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Add blood donation

 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 08:03, 23 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Blood transfusion should be sufficient. We don't even have donation, charitable organization or aid. OTOH, the Red Cross is listed at level 3. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 09:39, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Blood donations, may be too similar to blood transfusion. One is the giving one is the receiving. You could argue if we have blood transfusion and blood donation, then why not organ donation in addition to organ transplant. Although blood donation is admittedly more of a thing we see happening compared to organ donations, due to being more widespread, and easier to carry out, possible without surgery, and possible multiple times in ones life.  Carl wev   12:19, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion

Add History of West Africa
This seems the quinessential example of where a history of region would be more useful than a history of a particular country. There's been history made in West Africa for millenia, but the present country boundaries date from the 1950s and 60s. Also a good way to cover the African end of the slave trade. p b  p  00:11, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

West Africa is well defined nowadays because of the United Nations geoscheme but is still somewhat arbitrary. There are shared ethnic groups between Nigeria and Cameroon and between Niger and Chad for example. Ultimately, all borders are arbitrary but some make more practical sense than others in classifying and dividing parts of the world. West Africa has many small countries outside of Nigeria that deserve a level of coverage more than History of Africa which I why I support this. Some parts of Africa are even hazier, like Central Africa. I would not support adding History of Central Africa but Democratic Republic of the Congo instead. FYI, there are many history of countries outside of Africa listed where the current boundaries are very modern compared to the overall history of the area. Gizza <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 10:45, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1)  p  b  p  00:11, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support In response to pbp's last comment though, Slavery in Africa is on the list. Cobblet (talk) 08:02, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Weak Support Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 10:45, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose Simply a region that can be explained by Sub-Saharan Africa or by North Africa. It is not important enough to be considered vital. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 22:11, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion
 * I don't think it's an arbitrarily defined region: there is a rich history of human civilization in the basins of the Senegal and Niger Rivers and Lake Chad (is Points unaware of this?) whose only links to the outside world before European contact were long-distance trade routes across the Sahara and Sahel. That's what the article should cover. Cobblet (talk) 22:10, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
 * It's not the history or civilization aspect that is ambiguous, it is the "West" in West Africa. We could hypothetically include a History of Southern Europe article but it would not be clear if it should only discuss the histories of Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal or also include the histories of Southern France, the Balkans and Turkey. This is because "Southern Europe" is not a precise term just like West Africa. OTOH, there are regions with very precise boundaries like Scandinavia and Southeast Asia. You know which countries are included and which are not. There's no grey area.
 * In reference to particular historical periods, the trans-Saharan and Sahelian kingdoms went beyond West Africa as east as Sudan and the Atlantic Slave Trade spread as south as Angola. I still support adding this article for reasons stated above but ideally there would be a better way to classify this part of the world. Maybe Sahelian kingdoms is a better choice although it only partially covers the same territory. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 06:27, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Add Visayas
There are three major island groups in the Philippines. Luzon and Mindanao are already added and Visayas completes the set. I'm shocked that a proposal to add the Visayas failed nearly three years ago when are many barely habitable, isolated and obscure islands on the list. We contain the major islands for Japan, Indonesia, Italy, Greece and others. There's no reason not to do the same for the Philippines. Gizza <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 06:58, 8 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 06:59, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support as previous nom. Cobblet (talk) 07:12, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support --Thi (talk) 12:34, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support  Carl  wev   13:18, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Plantdrew (talk) 16:52, 8 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose

Depends on what you mean by "major islands", but for Greece I'll point out Rhodes and Santorini are missing. Cobblet (talk) 07:12, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Discuss


 * We do seem a bit more friendly and sensible than 3 years ago, has it been that long? Article says Visayas has 18 million population, and a distinct cultural and ethnic identity too. Like others have said, Philippines is divided into 3 regions, we list the other 2 so we should logically list the 3rd one too, this one fits in well, and it looks like a pretty significant area ignoring those facts as well.  Carl  wev   13:18, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I admit I missed out on Rhodes but I disagree on Santorini. It is mostly a tourist destination much like Cancun or Phuket. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 10:12, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Minoan eruption. Cobblet (talk) 16:26, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * If that's the case, I would prefer adding the eruption itself. We wouldn't add Chicxulub, Yucatán because of the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 02:21, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Remove Torres Strait
The Torres Strait isn't particularly important. It is not among the ten most busy shipping lanes in the world, it isn't known for piracy or naval conflict and it doesn't have environmental or climatic significance (after the Great Barrier Reef, the most important area in that part of the world is the Wet Tropics of Queensland).


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 02:55, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support I would also suggest Mount Tambora (largest volcanic eruption in recorded history) or Kuk Swamp (one of the few places in the world where agriculture was independently developed, and at around the same time as it was being introduced to Europe) as being more noteworthy geographical features in the general area. Cobblet (talk) 04:58, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support  Carl  wev   05:15, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support --Thi (talk) 12:35, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Plantdrew (talk) 16:52, 8 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose

The most vital thing about the strait are Torres Strait Islands which are still not vital at this level. Gizza <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 04:47, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Discuss

Remove Hudson Strait
Likewise, the Hudson Strait doesn't have any significance beyond being in between Baffin Island and Quebec, both of which are on the list.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 03:18, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Even if we had to compile a list of fifty important features of Canadian geography this still wouldn't come close to making the cut. Cobblet (talk) 04:45, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support  Carl  wev   05:15, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Plantdrew (talk) 16:52, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Strong SupportGonzales John (talk) 08:07, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Remove Yucatán Channel

 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom.  Carl  wev   05:21, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Both Belize Barrier Reef and Cancún would be much more vital. Cobblet (talk) 05:56, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support per above. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 06:18, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support --Thi (talk) 12:35, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Plantdrew (talk) 16:52, 8 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Remove Sunda Strait
While small ships and fisheries have used the Sunda Strait, it is dwarfed in importance by the Strait of Malacca, the most important strait in Southeast Asia and the one which links up most Asian countries. Gizza <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 06:18, 8 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 06:18, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support We've removed more important bodies of water like the Java Sea and Makassar Strait. (I could live with bringing back the former.) Cobblet (talk) 06:33, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support  Carl  wev   06:36, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support --Thi (talk) 12:35, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Plantdrew (talk) 16:52, 8 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Swap: Remove Uluṟu-Kata Tjuṯa National Park, Add Uluru
More discussion below. Uluru is by far more internationally known, an Australian natural landmark. 20 times as many page views, appears in many more languages.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom.  Carl  wev   17:07, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support as the person who suggested adding the park in the first place. Cobblet (talk) 17:40, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 03:36, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support --Thi (talk) 14:17, 22 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Makes perfectly good sense. People don't know the park, they know the rock  p  b  p  20:56, 3 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion


 * Uluru and/or Uluṟu-Kata Tjuṯa National Park?

At the moment we list the park. My instincts say the rock is what most people are looking for and is much more well known, it's in many more languages. The lead for the park article basically says it's the location of the rock. Although the park contains the rock, in addition the other lesser known rock, and surrounding area. My instincts say we should have the rock. What do others think? Rock, park, or both?  Carl wev   17:47, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't mind a swap, but definitely not both. No doubt Uluru's vastly more famous, but Kata Tjuta has some significance to the local Pitjantjatjara as well. Cobblet (talk) 18:12, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I support a swap. Uluru gets around 20 times the page views. Kata Tjuta (better known among some English speakers as the Olgas) is still well known and has local significance but I can't see that trumping Uluru's global notability. Most indigenous people in the world don't have their sacred sites on the list at all. Kata Tjuta itself gets more views than the park, probably because most readers (Australian and outside) don't think of the area in terms of a national park. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 11:30, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Add Baltic states
Population over 6 million across 3 nations. A significant and distinct area, with its own culture, history, group of languages. Only guilty of not being on a peninsula or island, I believe we would list it already if it was.  Carl wev   11:36, 20 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom.  Carl  wev   11:36, 20 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose There actually isn't that much that ties these countries together, besides being next to each other and having a similar political history in the 20th century. See Baltic States. Prior to the 20th century Lithuania's history was very different from Latvia and Estonia's; linguistically Estonian is in a completely different language family from Latvian and Lithuanian; and in terms of religion Lithuania is Catholic while Latvia and Estonia historically lean more Lutheran, although Estonia is now one of the least religious countries in Europe. There's nothing that distinguishes this area geographically from its surroundings either. In general I dislike adding small groupings of modern countries (compare Benelux or The Guianas or the Persian Gulf states) unless there is something that ties them together and is worth talking about on its own, like Scandinavia or Korea (culture in both cases). See also my comments on the Balkans below, which is also a culturally diverse region like the Baltic states but is more unified in terms of geography and history. Cobblet (talk) 19:48, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose --Thi (talk) 18:44, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose Per Cobblet. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 09:35, 27 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Discussion

I was thinking of reasons we might not have listed it before, or why people might not like it, and decided to answer what I suspect someone may say. People may be put of by the term "states" but it's also known as simply the "Baltics" but our article is located at the title Baltic States. Compare to another region we list The Balkans, that is also known as Balkan states as well, although maybe less often. If the area jutted out and was a peninsula or even an island we would almost definitely list it. We list things like Iberian Peninsula (of two nations), and Anatolia of one nation and more, and although they are significant if one were to say the Baltic nations articles themselves are enough, you could say the same of Spain, Portugal and Turkey with those other peninsulas. We list many islands like Tasmania which seem less significant, but we list as it's an island, along with many others, a lot with low population, like those in Canada and Russia, such as Novaya Zemlya and more. We list the Kaliningrad Oblast which is a nearby Russian region of under one million population. We also list the Kola peninsula which only has 300,000 population. Kaliningrad and Kola ma be significant but seem lower priority to me than the Baltic to me. I'm sure we used to list the wider area of Eastern Europe, along with Western Europe but not any more; and they are not the same anyway. We also list Eastern Bloc but that doesn't make it obsolete, it is a much wider area too and is time restricted, only relevant from within the 20th century, that would be like leaving of Anatolia and Balkans saying they're covered by the Ottoman Empire or something similar. Also we do list Baltic Sea, but that's about the body of water and doesn't cover the land and culture and history of the area. We list bodies of water and regions/states when it comes to Enland/English Channel, Gibraltar/Straight of Gibraltar, California/Gulf of California, Tasmania/Tasman Sea, Florida/Straits of Florida and a load more. Baltic Sea doesn't really make it redundant just like those others. We list other physical geography articles like Sierra Nevada and Lake District we seem less important topic than the Baltic to me.  Carl wev   11:36, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * The Balkans are not just a peninsula (that by itself would not be enough to make the term worth including) but also a region of highlands (that's what Balkan literally means in Turkish) so it is in fact a distinct area just in terms of geography alone: that alone is enough to justify its place on the list, in my view. Note that the distinct geography of the Balkans has contributed to its distinct history: the fragmentation imposed by the region's topography has made it difficult for its inhabitants to unify themselves, which has rendered the area as a whole susceptible to foreign intrusion.
 * The way we lump all the peninsulas into one section makes it hard to tell what makes them important. Iberia and Anatolia are both essentially isolated plateaus that also happen to be peninsulas. We list Apennine Mountains but not Italian Peninsula because it's the fact that the Apennines are a mountain range that makes the area distinct and worth describing in depth – the fact that water surrounds it on three sides is secondary. The inclusion of the Kola Peninsula is less justifiable – here I agree that there is nothing unique about the area other than how it happens to be a peninsula.
 * I agree that many of the islands we list are not so vital – I've alluded to this in previous comments as well. On the other hand, I do think Kaliningrad is vital due to its strategic value (Russia's only ice-free port on the Baltic Sea) and military significance as headquarters of Russia's Baltic Fleet. It's a red herring to compare Kaliningrad's population to the Baltic states – that's not why Kaliningrad's on the list. The right comparisons for Kaliningrad are Crimea and Vladivostok.
 * One last comment: when reviewing these proposals, I take into consideration whether there are other articles on the list that already cover similar ground. Baltic states does not add much new information compared to what is already in the articles on Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, because there just isn't that much that ties the three countries together. Take out Kaliningrad Oblast, though, and the only article that covers the significance of Kaliningrad becomes the article on Russia itself. I think Kaliningrad deserves more attention than that. Cobblet (talk) 19:48, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Add Antwerp
As above, Belgium can have 2 cities if Scotland can. Second busiest port in Europe, half million population in borders and 1.2 million in metropolitan area. Significant buildings, especially fortifications.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom.  Carl  wev   20:26, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Cobblet (talk) 21:20, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support --Thi (talk) 09:25, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Plantdrew (talk) 23:11, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support the best suggestion of the three current proposals. I won't be supporting the others for now especially Porto since there are areas outside of Europe that suffer from a relative lack of cities listed and have a more urgent need to expand. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 01:33, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Add Italian literature
Italian literature starts from the late Middle Ages and Renaissance and includes renowned writers such as Petrach, Dante and Machiavelli. It is comparable to French, German and Russian in its influence and in how it has changed views and created ideas worldwide and is more vital than Polish and Spanish (keeping in mind the article's current scope is limited to Castilian speaking areas of Spain only, thereby excluding Catalan and Basque areas and other Spanish speaking countries).


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 11:01, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Cobblet (talk) 16:16, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support  Carl  wev   17:47, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Thi
 * 5) SupportGonzales John (talk) 17:04, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 6) Support Clearly vital with writers such as Boccaccio and those mentioned by the nominator. Neljack (talk) 10:59, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose

This was in our original discussion, but then we forgot to actually open it, until now. Only a minimal overlap with Latin literature, depending on the description. They are not the same, and they are both important. Minimal but acceptable overlap could also potentially exist in Arabic/African and Spanish/Latin American literature too.  Carl wev   17:47, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion

Add Turkish literature

 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 10:52, 21 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Opposition
 * 1) Turkish literature has not had the same impact in the Islamic world as Arabic or Persian literature. On par with Urdu literature in my opinion. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 05:08, 23 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Discussion

Add Portuguese literature

 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 10:52, 21 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Opposition
 * 1) Oppose Portugal is a small country and doesn't punch above it weight compared to similar European nations (or other nations around the world) when it comes to literature. Brazil's literature is already covered under Latin American. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 03:02, 23 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Discussion

Add Greek literature

 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 10:52, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support --Thi (talk) 11:14, 21 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Opposition
 * 1) Oppose Ancient Greek is a better choice. Modern Greek is not influential outside the country's borders. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 03:05, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose Support for Ancient Greek literature. --Thi (talk) 11:11, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose Ancient Greek literature has been added. Cobblet (talk) 16:51, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

There is also Ancient Greek literature, not sure which is better. Yes Greek literature is wide and covers ancient too as well as more modern, but ancient is more specific and significant. So I don't know?  Carl wev   13:06, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion

Remove Pelléas et Mélisande
Least vital opera on the list.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. --Thi (talk) 19:44, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support per nom. Cobblet (talk) 20:38, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support  Carl  wev   04:33, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Plantdrew (talk) 16:19, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support per nom. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 10:50, 4 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Add Rapper's Delight by Sugarhill Gang? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.90.131.127 (talk) 18:40, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Swap: Remove Recorder (musical instrument), Add Western concert flute
Flute refers to the general type of instrument (including things like ney, shakuhachi, pan flute, etc.), not the instrument commonly found in a Western orchestra, which is clearly more important than the recorder which is a niche instrument nowadays.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Cobblet (talk) 20:50, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support --Thi (talk) 12:38, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support addition only  Carl  wev   07:46, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose removal: The recorder is one of the oldest extant instruments that is still played with any kind of frequency. p  b  p  16:57, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

From a musicological standpoint, there are three types of wind instruments: brass, flutes and reed instruments. In the context of the Western orchestra, woodwind instrument is the traditional umbrella term for the last two of these. Given that we also list wind instrument and flute which are umbrella terms themselves, I don't think listing woodwinds is really necessary. Even something like reed (mouthpiece) seems like an improvement to me. Cobblet (talk) 20:50, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose removal of recorder. For many children still their first instrument, also going through some modest revival especially in old music recitals. (I am fine with adding the western concert flute but not with the swap). Arnoutf (talk) 18:53, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose removal per above. Support addition. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 23:00, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose removal only  Carl  wev   07:46, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion
 * User:Purplebackpack89, we already list lyre as an example of an instrument whose significance is primarily historical. How does it make any sense to list almost every single common instrument in the western orchestra except the flute, which is also used in jazz and even sometimes in rock? Cobblet (talk) 17:20, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Perhaps I need to clarify: I'm not against adding the flute, but I'm against removing the recorder. And, IMO, there's not a great deal of similarity between lyres and recorders.  You don't hear much about lyre concerts or lyre ensembles.  Depending on how you look at it, I either a) don't think the recorder is as dead as you do, or b) think it's a better example of an archaic instrument than the lyre.  p  b  p  17:42, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Remove The Third Man
Individual films continue to be overrepresented relative to works of other genres. Just look at what else was published in 1949: not only Nineteen Eighty-Four (which is listed), but also Death of a Salesman and The Second Sex, both of which I think are better choices for the list than this film.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Cobblet (talk) 07:19, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support --Thi (talk) 11:52, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support  Carl  wev   18:25, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support the other three suggestions are vastly more vital than The Third Man. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 13:44, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Strong SupportGonzales John (talk) 16:58, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discussion

===Add Mesopotamian mythology=== The rich mythology of the people of the Fertile Crescent is important.Gonzales John (talk) 04:57, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Gonzales John (talk) 04:57, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discussion

This is a redirect to Ancient Mesopotamian religion, which is listed. Cobblet (talk) 05:57, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Add RYB color model and Lab color space

 * Support
 * 1) As nom. Some people may consider the latter non-vital, however it is absolutely vital at this level, since it is used as an interchange format between different devices as for its device independency.--RekishiEJ (talk) 13:14, 2 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Add Turkish cuisine and Korean cuisine
The former is vital since nowadays a lot of people travel to Turkey to enjoy authentic Turkish cuisine and its sweets, Turkish delights are quite famous. The latter is vital because South Korea tirelessly promotes it to non-Koreans, and it is gaining popularity in Taiwan.


 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 13:05, 2 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose Korean cuisine. Definitely not the next Asian cuisine I'd add – I'd say Thai, Vietnamese and even some regional Chinese cuisines like Cantonese are more important. Would prefer Middle Eastern cuisine over Turkish cuisine – it makes little sense to single out Turkish food when it's so similar to the cuisines of its neighbours. Cobblet (talk) 19:29, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose Those countries do not have a big enough influence on world cuisine for their styles of cuisine to be vital. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 22:20, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose --Thi (talk) 10:01, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Oppose On the one hand, Turkey probably is the most influential country on the region's cuisine because of the reach of the Ottomans but on the other hand, Middle Eastern cuisine as a whole is still a better option. Tireless promotion does not make a cuisine vital. Every country tirelessly promotes its cuisine and other things too. Korean isn't the next Asian cuisine I would add. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 13:01, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion

I still keep thinking of Mexican cuisine. Someone, said it's not known outside of Mexico and USA. Well I've never been to the Americas, Only travelled around Europe and Near East. Seems very popular in UK and Europe, more so than the listed Japanese and French cuisine. Just my perception.  Carl wev   12:02, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Add Real estate
More discussion/reasoning below. We list intellectual property and two types, but we no kind of physical property concept kind. We list several kinds of investments, but this is perhaps one of the most common. We list several industries, and this one is perhaps one of the most important ones. In business we list as pointed out above 3 Japanese car companies. I think this deserves a place. BTW both society and the whole list are under count if anyone is concerned about quotas.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom.  Carl  wev   22:51, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Cobblet (talk) 22:53, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support  p  b  p  23:04, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 11:58, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Good find. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 00:06, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 6) Support - Fine addition. Jus  da  fax   06:18, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose

What do people think of Real estate? We have property but that is wide, we have intellectual property but do we include physical property? Although we have house but we include things that could be intellectual property too.  Carl wev   20:27, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion
 * What do you want the real estate article to cover that isn't covered in other articles? Cobblet (talk) 20:56, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm thinking about that. OK there is overlap, but is it an acceptable amount? is it an area important enough to be covered by more than one article? We list tax and several versions. Debt and several versions (credit card, loan, mortgage). Intellectual property and several versions (copyright, patent). I'm trying to decide if the topic is vital, but is the fact some other articles cover it to a degree enough reason on its own to exclude it, if it's not with the above 3 examples? Do we have an article that covers the concept of renting? Which articles cover real estate? House and property, any more? Property is a wide article, is it OK to go more in depth with intellectual property but not physical property? I suppose it covers or should the industry of buying selling leasing renting property/land/homes/buildings etc in more depth? Just brain storming.   Carl  wev   21:22, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I think real estate is most obviously vital if you think about it as a type of investment; I think that is most likely what a high-quality article on real estate would focus on, and no other article besides investment is going to cover real estate from that angle. (House is not going to cover housing bubble.) From that perspective, it seems to me bond (finance) and real estate are significantly more vital than the stock exchanges Gizza's proposed to remove and even more vital than derivative (finance).
 * It isn't given that an article on real estate would necessarily say much about the general concept of renting – other things can be rented as well. Gizza has previously mentioned that lease isn't on the list. The article most likely to cover what a lease is is probably contract. I don't think we really list any contract-related subtopics. I'd think it's more important to list a particularly common type of contract that's directly relevant to a lot of people than to include three Japanese car companies, but some of the participants here probably haven't lived long enough to have to make a single rent payment, so... who knows. Cobblet (talk) 22:18, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Add Nulla poena sine lege
A core legal principle in many countries.


 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 11:31, 22 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose Too specific and a bit esoteric – to me this is like saying the Zeroth law of thermodynamics is vital. I don't think listing specific types of rights is a good idea but that would still be better than this. Cobblet (talk) 20:19, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose Covered by the rule of law. Most of these legal axioms fall under wider topics. For example nemo dat quod non habet is covered by property law. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 05:40, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose --Thi (talk) 07:59, 24 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Discussion

Add Coup d'état

 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 13:42, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support One of the key ways that a leader is overthrown. It has become relatively common over the 20th and 21st centuries. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 17:39, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose Why does this need to be listed when revolution is also on the list? Cobblet (talk) 21:03, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose adding types of political overthrows shouldn't be high priority IMO considering the more important articles missing in politics and social sciences. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 11:59, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

A revolution is different from a coup. A revolution usually implies a popular revolt and a possible civil war. A coup is simply when a few generals decide to seize power for themselves. Both are vital, in my opinion. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 19:04, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion

Add political spectrum and Left–right politics

 * Support
 * 1) As nom. I'm quite surprised that they are not in the list!--RekishiEJ (talk) 08:28, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support political spectrum. --Thi (talk) 10:12, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support political spectrum. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 03:50, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support political spectrum.  Carl  wev   18:54, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support: We need at least one article that deals with political ideology. I'd actually favor the second, but I'll accept the first as that seems to be where things are headed.  p  b  p  20:01, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose adding left-right politics. Cobblet (talk) 22:48, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose adding left-right politics. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 03:50, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

At the most only one of these articles is needed (probably the first) because of the overlap between them. Gizza <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 11:42, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion
 * Well, the former is not synonymous with the latter, and in some countries (e.g. Republic of China) people divide not on left-right politics, but on nationalism or trade issues.--RekishiEJ (talk) 12:03, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, the former still covers the latter. The latter is redundant if the former is added. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 12:08, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Add Pride and Hubris
These emotions are near-universally debated, discussed, and described as vices or virtues in well-known philosophies and religions.Gonzales John (talk) 06:06, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Support


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose Covered by self-esteem, which we recently added in place of pride and shame. Cobblet (talk) 06:34, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose --Thi (talk) 10:14, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose there are enough general emotions and traits. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 10:00, 5 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Discussion

Add patriarchy
A concept which is definitely vital at this level, since feminists discuss it a lot, and many academics debate the true cause of it (whether biological or social).


 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 11:25, 2 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose Male gender roles in society are covered by man and husband. Cobblet (talk) 22:22, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose --Thi (talk) 10:45, 4 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Discussion

Add Human overpopulation
A topic so basic and important that it wouldn't look out of place on the level 3 list.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Cobblet (talk) 17:16, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support  Carl  wev   18:30, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 11:47, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support --Thi (talk) 19:55, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support PointsofNoReturn (talk) 00:27, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 6) Support - Add it, please. Jus  da  fax   06:13, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose

Pretty easy addition in my mind, very important. Reading through that article, came across the article Plague of Justinian, the first known case of the bubonic plague, and is said to have killed as many as half the population of Europe or 50 million people, quite a lot, major cause of population decline, or slowing growth at least. The Black Death, the second pandemic of the disease is level 3, this one may be level 4 material.  Carl wev   18:30, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion
 * It's a reasonable suggestion, although our coverage of European history is already much better than history in other parts of the world. We should probably consider listing pandemic as well. Cobblet (talk) 19:10, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Add El Niño–Southern Oscillation
By far the most notable climate oscillation. Affects every country around the Pacific Ocean.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Cobblet (talk) 22:49, 27 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose we already have El Niño. Don't see how adding this is necessary. A swap could be an improvement since ENSO talks about both El Niño and La Niña. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 02:16, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Oops, did not notice El Niño was listed. Could discuss the swap but that is hardly a priority. I'll withdraw the nomination. Cobblet (talk) 02:20, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Discussion

Add Tessellation
Significant to art and mathematics, which makes me slightly unsure of its placement, but geometry seems most sensible. There are man made ones such as mosaics, and works of M. C. Escher and also natural ones. Have been used or known since ancient times and are still used and studied today in several fields.  Carl wev   02:07, 2 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support  Carl  wev   02:07, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Cobblet (talk) 02:09, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support good find Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 00:13, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support --Thi (talk) 09:57, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Neljack (talk) 11:01, 3 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Remove David Garrick
I question the need to list English stage actors who were active before the 20th century. We don't list pre-modern performers from any other culture even though they may be better known (Farinelli gets more page views than Burbage, Garrick or Irving) or have more in the way of concrete contributions (Izumo no Okuni invented kabuki) and it's impossible to justify listing nearly-forgotten actors when much better-known English writers, artists or musicians of the time aren't on the list. Alexander Pope's biography gets five times as many page views; Henry Fielding's gets twice as many; Henry Purcell's, three times. Garrick's reforms to English theatre are perhaps comparable to Carl Maria von Weber's impact on German opera or Christoph Willibald Gluck's on Italian and French opera, and both those biographies get more page views than Garrick's.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Cobblet (talk) 08:33, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support  Carl  wev   09:24, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support --Thi (talk) 12:31, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support p  b  p  14:05, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Neljack (talk) 09:36, 3 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Remove Jackie Gleason
It seems to me that the other comedians on the list are more famous.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. --Thi (talk) 11:53, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support less famous than some actors we removed like Robert Redford. Lucille Ball covers the early sitcom era. Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 14:29, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Cobblet (talk) 16:33, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support  Carl  wev   18:17, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support American comedians remain over-represented on the list. Neljack (talk) 09:37, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose One of the best known actors of the 20th century. --David Tornheim (talk) 02:43, 29 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Discussion

Remove Dick Clark
The current list of 111 entertainers contains two other TV hosts: Johnny Carson and Ed Sullivan.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. --Thi (talk) 11:53, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Ed Sullivan's impact on the history of pop music is greater than Clark's. Cobblet (talk) 17:50, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) Support  Carl  wev   18:19, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Gizza  <sup style="color:teal;">( t )( c ) 02:00, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Neljack (talk) 09:38, 3 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion