Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/4/Archive 71

Add Lady Mary Wortley Montagu
She was an influential writer. Interstellarity (talk) 13:26, 15 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 13:26, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * 2) Her Turkish Embassy Letters are a vital record of the Ottoman Empire's social life. Dimadick (talk) 02:26, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Neutral

Émilie du Châtelet would also be interesting addition. --Thi (talk) 09:58, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Discussion

Add Ferdinand de Lesseps
Suggested as the most vital businessman not listed. Interstellarity (talk) 14:27, 20 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support Developer of the Suez Canal. Common topic in encyclopedia. --Thi (talk) 20:19, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
 * 2) Support One of the most significant diplomats of the 19th century. Initiated plans for both the Suez Canal and the Panama Canal. He also presented the Statue of Liberty as France's gift to the United States. Dimadick (talk) 02:38, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Neutral
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 14:27, 20 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Discussion

add Emanuel Swedenborg
This guy was even suggested to be added on the level 3 (here). From the article on Goethe: Ralph Waldo Emerson selected Goethe as one of six "representative men" in his work of the same name (along with Plato, Emanuel Swedenborg, Montaigne, Napoleon, and Shakespeare). He and Nobel are probably outstanding Swedishes of all time. We are under quota but if someone has ideas on swap I can support.
 * Support
 * 1) As nom. Dawid2009 (talk) 05:39, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Per nom. Highly influential person, who is from the 18th century and still is pretty important. One of the older figures we miss. It's weird to list Tom Hanks and Magic Johnson types while missing people like Swedenborg who have been important for centuries. Nearly 3k hits in WorldCat ; shows theres lots of work available on him (compare that with 8 for Claudette Colbert who we list. GuzzyG (talk) 07:58, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Swedenborg is the founder of The New Church, one of the earliest new religious movements. His ideas influenced Mormonism, New Thought, and analytical psychology. Dimadick (talk) 10:26, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 4) Many prominent figures were influenced by Emanuel Swedenborg, for instance, Helen Keller, who is currently listed.--RekishiEJ (talk) 15:21, 7 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Add Protagoras

 * Support
 * 1) As nom. Because Plato credited him with inventing the role of the professional sophist, he is no doubt vital at this level.--RekishiEJ (talk) 16:09, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Dimadick (talk) 21:30, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Add Theophrastus

 * Support
 * 1) As nom. Because he is often considered the father of botany, he is absolutely vital at this level.--RekishiEJ (talk) 16:09, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Dimadick (talk) 21:31, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Add Philo

 * Support
 * 1) As nom. Because allegorical interpretation of the Bible became popular among Christians because of him, his works greatly influenced Alexandrian Christians, especially Clement of Alexandria and his pupil Origen (both are currently listed), and Judeo-Christian values have been influencing many peoples, Philo should be listed as well.--RekishiEJ (talk) 16:09, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Dimadick (talk) 21:32, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Add Nestorius

 * Support
 * 1) As nom. Because his Christological and Mariological doctrines, though were dismissed as heresy by the Council of Ephesus, actually have been endorsed by plenty of Assyrians, his brand of Christianity once spread to China (cf. Church of the East in China) and my college-level world history textbook mentions him but not Jerome, John Chrysostom, John of Damascus, Origen or Tertullian (each is now listed), he no doubt should be listed as well.--RekishiEJ (talk) 09:21, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Dimadick (talk) 08:54, 30 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose Dawid2009 (talk) 11:05, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Discuss

Add Jean Monnet and/or Robert Schuman
These two people played an important role in shaping the European Union. Interstellarity (talk) 18:06, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1) I don't care whether both are added or one of them is added, I support either way. Interstellarity (talk) 18:07, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
 * 2) Slightly prefer Schuman, but either is fine. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 18:34, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Either is fine. Dimadick (talk) 02:40, 23 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Add Menachem Begin
He's influential since he signed a peace treaty with Egypt to normalize relations with Israel. Interstellarity (talk) 16:25, 14 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 16:25, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Dimadick (talk) 02:43, 23 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Add Khufu
This person has been influential especially with a pyramid named after him. Interstellarity (talk) 13:11, 15 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 13:11, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Dimadick (talk) 02:44, 23 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose We know very little about Khufu. Great Pyramid of Giza is listed. --Thi (talk) 15:52, 15 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Discuss

Add Clara Barton
She founded the Red Cross which is influential to this day. Interstellarity (talk) 13:15, 15 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 13:15, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * 2) Support She is the founder of the American Red Cross and quite influential. But the founder of the Red Cross as a movement was Henry Dunant. Dimadick (talk) 02:51, 23 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose Henry Dunant founded the worldwide movement. --Thi (talk) 19:29, 1 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Discuss

Add Mother Jones
Important activist. Interstellarity (talk) 13:48, 15 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 13:48, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Often used as an example of influential woman. --Thi (talk) 15:55, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Effective union organizer. Dimadick (talk) 02:52, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Add Christiaan Barnard
Surprised he's not on here especially since the first heart transplant was credited to him. Interstellarity (talk) 13:21, 15 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 13:21, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Performed two pioneering heart transplants, and developed a remedy for intestinal atresia that reduced infant mortality. Dimadick (talk) 02:58, 23 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose Heart transplantation should be added first. --Thi (talk) 10:13, 28 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Neutral


 * Discussion

Add Benjamin Spock
Important pediatrician. Interstellarity (talk) 13:48, 15 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 13:48, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * 2) Support His child-rearing advice are credited as a revolution in the field. However, his ideas about childhood nutrition are considered as instructions on how to cause nutritional deficiencies, instead of preventing them. Dimadick (talk) 03:07, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Neutral


 * Discussion

Add Tom Brady
He is considered one of the best American football players of all time. I'm surprised he's not listed. Interstellarity (talk) 20:13, 12 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 20:13, 12 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose Quite recent figure, born in 1977. The list does not contain for example actors from the same era. Swapping Vince Lombardi with Joe Montana or Brady might be possible. --Thi (talk) 11:50, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
 * @Thi: Brady has been an NFL player since 2000 so I disagree that he is too recent. We list Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi since they have been playing soccer for a long time despite being recent. He is currently the oldest current NFL player and I do think his legacy is settled by now since 20 years in the NFL is a long time. Interstellarity (talk) 13:33, 13 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Discuss

Remove Vince Lombardi
Obscure football player. Not vital at this level. Interstellarity (talk) 22:21, 13 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 22:22, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 2) Support He was added as an example of coach before Level 5 was created. --Thi (talk) 09:33, 16 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Neutral

Lombardi is probably considered notable for coaching rather than playing. p b  p  22:45, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Discuss

Add Joe Montana
Possible addition for this one as suggested by Thi. Will remain neutral on this one. Interstellarity (talk) 22:21, 13 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Support


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose It is more important to have William G. Morgan than two or even one representative of Grindon on ENwiki. Dawid2009 (talk) 10:32, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Neutral
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 22:21, 13 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Discuss

Add Archive
Basic topic in encyclopedia, compare with Library. "Archival records serve to strengthen collective memory and protect people’s rights, property, and identity." 


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. --Thi (talk) 21:33, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * 2) --RekishiEJ (talk) 15:01, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Dimadick (talk) 03:07, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Add History of theatre
I would have assumed I would find it among 10,000 topics.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. --Thi (talk) 14:25, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Dimadick (talk) 15:34, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Rreagan007 (talk) 21:45, 12 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Swap: remove Mount Kosciuszko, add Cotopaxi
Per previous discussions about Aoraki, Kościuszko is not vital enough for this level. It is vital just as Puncak Jaya and Aoraki. I do not think we need to list all moutains from Seven summits at this level if there are other slightly more notable. I think Mount Kościuszko could remain if we would not have Great Victoria Desert at this level. Cotopaxi is the only famous Volcano which is higher than Kilimanjaro, I could be neutral on straight addition but prefer swap. Dawid2009 (talk) 13:27, 23 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support [nom]
 * 2) Support --Thi (talk) 13:43, 23 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Add West Lake
It's a UNESCO World Heritage Site, can't believe it's not on the list already


 * Support
 * 1) As nom. Lolitart (talk) 08:54, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 2) Definitely vital at this level, since it has "influenced garden design in the rest of China as well as Japan and Korea over the centuries" . Very surprised that it is currently not listed, and was originally not listed at level 5.--RekishiEJ (talk) 18:03, 19 November 2021 (UTC) fixed a little 12:37, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 3) Per above. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 04:21, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 4) Support per discussion. --Thi (talk) 10:47, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
 * 5) Support physical geography has scope for improvement at this level and the West Lake is a good suggestion. Gizza  (talk • voy) 10:23, 25 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Add Lake Biwa
Because it is the largest freshwater lake in Japan, and many Japanese literary works mention it, it is no doubt vital at this level.


 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 18:03, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 2) Per nom. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 04:21, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 3) Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 10:49, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Rreagan007 (talk) 21:46, 12 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Add Tahiti
Probably the most important Polynesian island (not counting New Zealand or Hawaii).C933103 (talk) 01:18, 10 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support [nom]
 * 2) Support per nominator. --Thi (talk) 12:58, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Rreagan007 (talk) 17:09, 10 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Add Peloponnese
Important topic in geography and history.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. --Thi (talk) 16:47, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * 2) Per nom. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 17:40, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Dimadick (talk) 08:56, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Rreagan007 (talk) 21:47, 12 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Add North Ossetia–Alania

 * Support
 * 1) As nom. Because South Ossetia is currently listed, and this republic is quite gong ho to be a part of the Russian Federation (though Russia does not want to annex it, cf. The Ossetes: Modern-Day Scythians of the Caucasus), North Ossetia should also be added.--RekishiEJ (talk) 07:03, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
 * 2) Support --Thi (talk) 13:00, 12 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose - North Ossetia–Alania is one of the not-so-vital Republics of Russia. Unless the geography quota increases significantly, I can't support adding it. I'd say that Kalmykia, Komi Republic and Buryatia among others are higher priority. Gizza  (talk • voy) 11:14, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Discuss

Add Manhattan
The Brooklyn discussion above is half a year old, and while it's likely going to fail I might as well revitalize it by also proposing Manhattan. My comments about it are similar to those about Brooklyn above; while it's somewhat controversial given our listing of New York City at level 3, NYC's sheer dominance among the world's cities makes it so that such redundancy is okay at level 4 IMO, especially since Brooklyn and Manhattan are each alone more "objectively important" than the listed Nashville, Tennessee, and Charlotte, North Carolina. The reason I didn't propose Manhattan back then is because I felt (and feel) that it is more redundant to NYC as a whole than Brooklyn is, especially since we're already 1 over quota both overall and in geography. Nevertheless, it would be rather silly for a list to include Brooklyn but not Manhattan, and while the latter to a much larger extent "is" New York City, it is thereby more important in its own right with such terms as Manhattanhenge, Manhattanization, and the mathematical "Manhattan metric". All told, I feel that Manhattan should not be at mere level 5, and even if this doesn't pass it's still worth discussion. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 23:42, 13 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) As nom. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 23:42, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Dimadick (talk) 08:58, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Add Thebes, Greece
Because this city played a crucial role in Greek mythology, it ought to be included here.


 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 15:19, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * 2) Support --Thi (talk) 16:36, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Dimadick (talk) 08:58, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose
 * 1) We already list Mount Olympus, and I don't see the need for Greek cities other than Athens and Sparta, although geographical features such as the Peloponnese and Crete are welcome here. I would rather list all four major NYC boroughs over this, tbh. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 15:28, 22 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Discuss

Swap: remove Taiyuan, add Lianyungang
Lianyungang is one of the rather significant port of trade in Northern China. It would seems more important than the coal-mining city of Taiyuan.C933103 (talk) 01:18, 10 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support [nom]


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Swap: remove Hefei, add Yiwu
Yiwu is China's main town of exporting the wide variety of variety items to the world nowadays. I think the importance of these role warrant its inclusion on the list, more than Hefei which do not have specific economic characteristical strength.C933103 (talk) 01:18, 10 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support [nom]


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Swap: remove Shijiazhuang, add Wenzhou
Unlike Shijiazhuang's lack of development, Wenzhou have been famous for its economy, its specific culture, and its language, that make it stand out from other cities in the list, thus I think it would warrant inclusion in the list more than Shijiazhuang.C933103 (talk) 01:18, 10 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support [nom]


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Swap: remove Nanning, add Guilin
While Nanning is the economically most powerful city in the area, the area is widely known for tourism and Guilin is the central destination to tourists, both domestic and overseas, and have earned much praise from travelers across the world, and is thus probably a more appropriate choice to be included in the list.C933103 (talk) 01:18, 10 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support [nom]


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Swap: remove Hefei, add Siyi
Siyi is a collection of nearby towns known for its worldwide influence through the spread of their decedent across the world. In contrast, Hefei seems to fell short in term of its international influence.C933103 (talk) 01:18, 10 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support [nom]


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Add Kagoshima
The most important city in Southern Kyushu.C933103 (talk) 01:18, 10 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support [nom]


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Add Nagasaki
Historically Japan's hub to interact with other East Asian countries, and and was also a key military city.C933103 (talk) 01:18, 10 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support [nom]
 * 2) Support --Thi (talk) 13:20, 12 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Add Anthropomorphism
Vital concept in psychology, culture and history of religion.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. --Thi (talk) 11:17, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Gizza  (talk • voy) 01:25, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Dimadick (talk) 10:37, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Rreagan007 (talk) 04:45, 20 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Add Historical fiction
Popular literary genre. Many literary mainstream books are also historical fiction (Hilary Mantel).


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. --Thi (talk) 21:32, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Dimadick (talk) 10:38, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Rreagan007 (talk) 21:50, 12 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Add Textbook

 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 16:59, 16 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss
 * 1) I had proposed to add it before, yet it failed (cf. Wikipedia_talk:Vital_articles/Level/4/Archive_44).--RekishiEJ (talk) 16:59, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Add Musicology
I think that the study of music is clearly a vital topic at this level.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. --Thi (talk) 14:23, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Dimadick (talk) 15:35, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Rreagan007 (talk) 02:45, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Why? I Ask (talk) 06:16, 22 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Swap Djembe for Timpani
The djembe is obviously an important instrument from Africa, but I don't know if it's more important than the timpani which serves as the most important drum in Western art music by a wide margin. While both are drums (another Level 4 article), the pitched nature of the timpani differentiates it enough from the largely unpitched instrument classification. This would also keep it in line with the standard orchestral instruments (flute, oboe, bassoon, clarinet, trumpet, horn, trombone, tuba, and the string section) being listed. The orchestral percussion section is divided into the pitched mallet percussion (e.g., the xylophone), non-pitched percussion (e.g., the snare drum, cymbals, etc.), and the timpani, so it needs to be listed. Why? I Ask (talk) 06:25, 22 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support [nom]
 * 2) Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 08:03, 22 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Add Portrait painting
I think it's as important as Landscape painting, which we list at this level.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Rreagan007 (talk) 08:41, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
 * 2) Support swap with Portrait --Thi (talk) 12:08, 21 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Add Still life
Important concept in painting and art history.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. --Thi (talk) 14:23, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * 2) Support. Rreagan007 (talk) 08:42, 21 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Add Art of ancient Egypt
Very famous exemplars in art history such as Bust of Nefertiti. Art history books typically present ancient Egyptian art and it has influenced European art and architecture.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. --Thi (talk) 14:23, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Dimadick (talk) 15:35, 27 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

Add Installation art

 * Support
 * 1) As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 15:31, 11 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss