Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/History and geography/Archive 2

Subsection quota
After the quota change in Northern Europe, the quota for the city section is technically only 1995. Where should we redistribute the quota? My first choice would be Central Asia. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 11:53, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Northern Europe cities
Link. This (Nordics + Baltics) is a section that strikes me as being overrepresented: there is a city listed for every 0.96 million people. Compare similar European countries: Austria has one for every 1.49 million; Switzerland has one for every 1.45 million; Belgium has one for every 1.16 million; Greece has one for every 1.52 million; Portugal has one for every 1.72 million. Not massively overrepresented, but it feels like there are a few questionable inclusions here.

No changes to Iceland, Estonia, Norway, Finland, Sweden, or Lithuania are proposed yet – I had envisioned a few more changes than just the two proposed originally. Prepare for an information dump. Akureyri isn't important enough unfortunately, so Iceland will always have Reykjavik as its sole representative. Estonia by rights should only have 2 cities at a maximum, but Tartu's influence as a university city and Narva's extremely interesting history meant I didn't really think we could remove either of them. As for Norway, I'm still considering proposing the removal of Stavanger depending on the support these proposals receive, and instead of removing Longyearbyen I've proposed to remove Spitsbergen above. All the Finnish cities simply seem a league above: Finland's population seems to be concentrated in cities, and all these cities have their own distinct character, but Espoo is likely to be removed soon (I might propose to add it back). Sweden has only 6 cities despite having almost twice the population of Norway, Finland, and Sweden – that's because it has fewer big cities. I can't put my finger on any glaring changes in that department. Lithuania's three major cities are included.  J 947  ‡ edits 03:11, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Denmark: remove Esbjerg and Randers
Including the Faroes and Greenland, we currently list 8 cities for Denmark, a country of a little over 5.9 million. Excluding them, we include 6, being, , , , , and. It's my impression that the latter two, as well as having the least population of the lot at 60–70,000, are the least important and should be removed.

In Esbjerg's favour, it's the most important western Danish city, so my support for its removal is significantly less than that for Randers'. Randers has greater historical importance, however.


 * Support
 * 1) Support both as nom.  J  947  ‡ edits 03:11, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Support per my view that we need to reduce quota on geo entries anyway. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 06:49, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Support per both above.  starship .paint  (RUN) 00:54, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) Support' per nom,-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:19, 19 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Mixed
 * 1) Support Esbjerg, oppose Randers as this list’s only inland city. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 19:08, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Discussion

Latvia: remove Daugavpils and Jelgava
Latvia only merits 2 cities at this level when currently we list 4 (these two,, and ). No cities other than the capital reach 100,000 in population, but port city Liepāja does seem just important enough to be listed for me (the historical population chart on its article tells a story). These two, particularly Jelgava, are more run of the mill.


 * Support
 * 1) Support both as nom.  J  947  ‡ edits 03:11, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Support per my view that we need to reduce quota on geo entries anyway. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 06:49, 10 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Mixed
 * 1) Support Jelgava, oppose Daugavpils as the country’s second largest city. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 12:09, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Jelgava, oppose Daugavpils per Vileplume. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:49, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Discussion

Quota decrease from 35 to 30
As the section header says. More of a minor consequence of these proposals, as these sub-section quotae aren't very important, but it might as well go up for discussion.


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom.  J  947  ‡ edits 03:11, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 2)  starship  .paint  (RUN) 04:08, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Totalibe (talk) 21:32, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) Support per my view that we need to reduce quota on geo entries anyway. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 06:49, 10 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oceania seems to have a horrendously high quota of 45, so if anything, we should take 5 from their quota. Oceania barely has 45 million people! Either way, I’d support redistributing those 5 to Africa, Southern Europe, Asia, or North America. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 01:44, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Most of the reason for that is covering national capitals, so if you support reducing Oceania you should also support not automatically listing capitals. Also, Northern Europe isn't exactly very populous either. It's being defined here as Nordic countries + the Baltic states, which based on their respective articles, only seem to have a total population of around 33 million themselves, on a quota of 35. Totalibe (talk) 19:57, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * While I believe that Oceania is less historically important than Northern Europe, I now see that Northern Europe has a lower quota per capita, especially when Uzbekistan itself has a higher population than it and Central Asia has an extremely low quota, with one for every 3.8m people. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 20:43, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

General discussion
Place yer thoughts here.  J 947  ‡ edits 03:11, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Add Southeastern United States
We always list Southwestern United States and would make sense to include this. Interstellarity (talk) 17:52, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 17:52, 30 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Neutral
 * 1) Would support a swap with something like East Central United States or one of the other geographic regions that, while official designations, are not commonly used terms  p  b  p  18:45, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) With being listed, this isn't much more than a point of confusion to me. It is the same states swapping out Texas and Oklahoma for Missouri. It doesn't seem like much more than an alternate definition of the one we already list.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:15, 19 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Discussion

Balance of History by city
Currently at Vital_articles/Level/5/History. No idea what the quota here is. From what I see, possible problems: Whether we need to add or remove stuff depends on the quota, but if we are keeping the current 42 article quota, there are some balance issues to consider. Removing at least one city from Ireland and giving it to UK, for example. China should at least equal US, IMHO, which could be easily achieved by cutting US down to three cities. Japan likely needs another city. Germany and France too. Portugal is missing from the list (add history of Lisbon?). Etc, etc. Feel free to propose removals/additions/swaps here - I'll do it in few days and ping anyone who commented here if nobody does. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 01:42, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * the usual overrepresentation of US topics: US leads the list with five entries: New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Philadelphia and San Francisco
 * Ireland seems also overrepresented, with Belfast and Dublin. Compare to UK, which just has London.
 * India has Delhi, Mumbai and Kolkata
 * Italy has Rome and Naples
 * China is underrepresnted, with just Beijing and Shanghai
 * Russia has two cities: Moscow and Saint Petersburg.
 * no other country has two cities


 * 42 is definitely too many. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:44, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Do we need to keep this as a separate list at all? Maybe, it would be better to distribute its items among #History by country and subdivision (422 articles) sections, and then it would be easier to achieve regional diversity, and also we could cross-compare individual cities and some of the regions. Kammerer55 (talk) 04:53, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Right. Also, to build on your comment elsewhere, which of those cities are V4? Any that are not probably don't deserve a history of at V5 (or we should consider making them V4, conversly). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 06:00, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Actually, there are >400 cities on level 4: Vital articles/Level/4/Geography, and it seems the listed 42 are all included there. Kammerer55 (talk) 06:42, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * If we look at this list on its own however, then the US is indeed overrepresented, especially since all US cities are only a few hundred years long (as already mentioned). (Also, note that History of Washington, D.C. is listed in another section.) Since these articles are about "Histories" of cities, then the most useful comparison criteria would probably be: 1) the age of the city (how many important historical periods it encompasses); 2) the significance of the events that have happened over there for the world history (or at least for the history of the continent). In the US section: Chicago, LA and SF should definitely be removed. In Europe: Athens, Berlin, London, Paris and Rome seem to be more historically significant than Amsterdam and Vienna, and those are more significant than Belfast, Dublin, Naples and Warsaw. However, most of these cities are probably more significant than most of the 50 histories of individual US states (!) all of which are present on the list, so it might be good to clean up that section first. Kammerer55 (talk) 05:04, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

The fair number is probably about 25 and TBH, IDK if we need any American city except New York. Chicago, LA and San Fran are all about 200 years old, the latter two being minor outposts before the Gold Rush. p b  p  04:17, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Remove History of Dublin and History of Belfast

 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. Let's get the ball rolling with the removals of two cities a tier or two below the 30 most important cities by history.  J  947  ‡ edits 05:01, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Support. Most European capital histories are not listed. Dublin and Belfast are probably among least historically significant, since nothing of worldwide (or at least regional significance) have happened over there. --Kammerer55 (talk) 05:07, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Support. Per my and other comments above. That's local history and nothing more, I fear. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  06:02, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) Support per nom. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 14:16, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Remove History of Chicago, History of San Francisco and History of Los Angeles

 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom, following J947's example. (I am not nominating Histories of New York, Philadelphia and Washington, since I think those are still much more important than the nominated articles.) --Kammerer55 (talk) 05:16, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Support. Franly, I'd only consider keeping NYC. NYC is one of the most famous if not the most famous city in the world. Washington may squeek through for being a capital of one of the world's most important countries. Philly, however... what makes its history vital to the world? I'd vote to remove it as well and will likely propose it if nobody beats me to it. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  06:05, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Support As I said above, we probably don't need any U.S. cities' history but New York. These are comparatively recent cities in the grand scheme of world history.  p  b  p  16:02, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) Support San Francisco and Los Angeles. Although LA is today the second largest city in the US, its growth is rather too recent for an article on the history to be listed here. San Francisco is even further down the list population-wise. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 5) Support San Francisco and Los Angeles per above.  starship .paint  (RUN) 05:57, 6 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose removing History of Chicago. Chicago's growth occured further back in the 19th century, giving it an advantage over the other two, and is today the third largest U.S. city. From the article "By 1870, Chicago had grown to become the nation's second-largest city and one of the largest cities in the world". I'd actually remove History of Washington, D.C. before this, as its a much smaller city. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose Chicago-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:57, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose Chicago in favour of removing Illinois.  starship .paint  (RUN) 05:57, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 4) Oppose all, I suppose. If we list the histories of all the states, mostly only VA5 themselves, then we might as well list the histories of VA3.5 cities.  J  947  ‡ edits 06:50, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

We could remove History of Illinois instead of History of Chicago.  J 947  ‡ edits 23:55, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Discussion


 * Worth voting on separately, sure. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 00:07, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

=== Merge #History by city section with #History by country and subdivision ===

If we merge the sections, then it might be easier to achieve proper regional balance, and we could also compare cities with regions. Also, historically many countries started from cities and some of them were city-states, so it's not clear why we should separate countries and cities in the History-section. --Kammerer55 (talk) 06:10, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support. Note: I am not the nom - nom forgot to support, I expect they'll fix it shortly. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 06:06, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Support as nom. --Kammerer55 (talk) 06:10, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Once we've gone through and cut this section down a bit, as people seem to desire, yes. Before then the current organisation is helpful for deciding what to remove!  J  947  ‡ edits 08:09, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The point was that if it's in one section with countries and regions, then we might deem some regions less important than cities, and remove those instead of cities, or add histories of some other cities which seem also historically important, but in a more regionally-balanced way. Kammerer55 (talk) 08:16, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes and that's why I support.  J 947  ‡ edits 08:47, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) QuicoleJR (talk) 16:12, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Balance of History of Asia
Glancing at Vital_articles/Level/5/History, which has a 'history of country X', reasonably, with some more controversial subarticles; not sure what the quote here is. PRChina has 7 subartices, Taiwan 2, India 8, Japan 3, Malaysia 3, Mongolia 1, Pakistan 2. Most subarticles seem to be 'histor of major province', which right now I am AGFing as major. Weird articles that may merit swap or removal, however, are, IMHO: Kuomintang in Burma under Taiwan, all three Japanese entries which seem very random: Gokishichidō, Provinces of Japan and History of the Ryukyu Islands (provinces of Japan is perhaps miscategorized, as it seems related to geography of Japan? Or its historical administrative division, covering period 'from the 600s to 1868' according to the article), Straits Settlements under Malaysia which also breaks the common theme of 'history of province' (but that theme is not something that other conintent sections always respect) and History of modern Mongolia, which is the only periodical subhistory article in that section. Below I am suggesting minor fixes, under the assumption that the quota (70) articles is roughly correct.

I have hard time figuring out what to do with Japanese subarticles here. History of the Ryukyu Islands seems like very minor, niche topic that should be removed, likely swapped for something more relevant to Japanese history - suggestions are welcome, keeping in mind that this section tends to list 'history of subregion' with very, very few exceptions. FYI, Japanese archipelago is not vital (should it be?). Japanese islands are V4, but their histories of don't exist. History of Hokkaido is just a redirect (Hokkaido is V4). History of Shikoku does not exist (Shikoku is V4). History of Kyushu again is a red link, Kyushu is V4. History of Honshu is a redirect, Honshu is V4. So a swap to history of the four islands cannot be done currently, since we don't, AFAIK, reserve space for articles that do not exist (yet). Perhaps someone more familiar with Japan can suggest four biggest prefectures or other regions, if they have history subarticles? Alternatively, could give Japan some more 'history by city' slots (see section a bit above, right now only History of Tokyo is at V5). And it's not like we don't have a bunch of other history of Japan articles, just spread through random other sections. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:19, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * The classification of history under current states causes some anachronism to emerge. I'm not sure how the current structure came out, but I would hazard that History of the Ryukyu Islands is included not because of its importance to 'Japanese history', but because of its importance separate to that. Ryuku was an independent(ish) kingdom until the modern period. CMD (talk) 06:23, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Swap Kuomintang in Burma for History of the Kuomintang
Context: listed under History of the Republic of China, together with History of Taiwan. Kuomintang is V5 under society. Burmese Kuomintang is less vital than history of the movement. Feel free to argue for a more relevant history-of-Taiwan article, or outright removal to give the spot to something else. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:19, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) As nom. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:19, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Support removal, it's really oddly specific given everything else in the list. There are many higher level articles that may cover this topic that are not included. Not sure what the balance is for replacements, but no objection to the Kuomintang or History of Taiwan articles as both are higher level. CMD (talk) 12:37, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Swap makes sense, as the KMT's history is important to world history. Curbon7 (talk) 21:37, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) per above.  starship .paint  (RUN) 05:56, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Neutral


 * Discussion
 * 1) History of Taiwan (1945–present)? Totalibe (talk) 12:23, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * My issue here is that we don't genrally list such periodical histories, and this kind of stuff is reasonably well covered by parent History of Taiwan. Perhaps as a rule of thumb, such periodical histiory can be ruled to belong to V6? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:41, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Remove History of modern Mongolia
The only periodical subarticle in Asian section and overall, we don't list such historical subarticles for countries here. And overall Mongolia may not warrant a subarticle, I'd rather give this slot to Japan or China or India or such. Sure, Mongolia has a long history, but modern Mongolia is an insignificant country with a pop. of 3m or so, sorry. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:19, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) As nom. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:19, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Not only that, this only covers 1990-present. I'd suggest swapping for Postwar Japan. Totalibe (talk) 12:23, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Post-war Mongolia is simply not relevant in broader history. Curbon7 (talk) 21:35, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) per above.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 05:56, 6 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Neutral


 * Discussion

Balance of History by country and subdivision
Vital_articles/Level/5/History, no comment on quota. For now just some general observations (note minor changes suggested to Asia and cities above).
 * this section is almost entirely based on the format of 'history of country/history of its subregions'. Exceptions are the most problematic, IMHO, but also we have some balance issues (TL;DR, heavy US bias).
 * Europe (100 articles)
 * History of Poland (1945–1989) is one of the very rare periodical (not geographical) subarticles and likely needs to be moved or removed
 * overall, Polish section is problematic, with not a single history of region article, rather, just a bunch of historical and present regions, seems very chaotic. I'll ping some editors interested in Polish history here for comments: User:Dawid2009, User:Marcelus, User:Volunteer Marek. At 6 spots Poland is also likely overrepresented here (France and Germany have 5 entries, Italy 3, Spain 2)
 * UK with 11 entries seems overrepresented, although it also encompasses three Irish articles, including 'history of Ireland'. Ireland should be split to its own section (and arguably cut down to a single article, IMHO).
 * Swiss neutrality is likely vital but why is it in this section? Very much an odd entry given the section 'history of subregion' structure
 * North America (154 articles) - sorry to say, the proportions here seem weird. History of Europe (or Asia) seems much more important than that of Americas (that said, let's remember a lot of history articles are in other sections; some of the bloat here may be solved by moving stuff elsewhere, but bottom line, is history of each US state vital? I have serious doubts here, particulary when we compare those numbers to China or India which get under 10 entries in their correspoding section.
 * Canada (16 articles) - riight, so Canada gets more entries than any European country, or France+Germany+Italy combined. Nobody sees anything wrong here? (Canada gets 13 provinces subarticles, general history of, and Hudson's Bay Company + Halifax Explosion). Frankly, that's likely ~10 too many, most if not all of those 13 subarticles need to go. And Halifax Explosion is cool but hardly vital, IMHO.
 * United States (110 articles) is of course the big elephant in the room here. It is the only country with a detailed periodical subdivision (History by time period (10 articles)), it has 4 general articles including niche stuff like Geological history of North America, 26 colonial history articles, History by states and territories (55 articles), and even History by demographic group (15 articles). Some of this stuff is arguably vital if in the wrong section, like Slavery in the United States, but overall, well, this is ridclous, balance wise. China has <10 entries, so does India, I mean, US gets more articles here than Europe combined.
 * Caribbean (20 articles) - likely cutting room in the 'Territories (7 articles)' part. Is history of those regions vital? (History of Anguilla, History of Bermuda, History of the British Virgin Islands, History of the Cayman Islands, History of Curaçao, History of Saint Martin (island), History of the Turks and Caicos Islands). IMHO it's enough to make sure the islands are vital (and even there I'd be so sure, I meam, if let's say Turks and Caicos Islands diseappeared from world's history - would anyting change?).
 * Central America (8 articles) - ok, possibly could use a subarticle or two
 * South America (12 articles)
 * not a single subarticle. Seems quite unfair compared to all the other regions. A dozen or two spots moved from North America here would like be a good ideas.
 * Africa (58 articles)
 * only a few subarticles: History of Morocco gets History of Western Sahara, History of Somalia gets History of Somaliland, and History of South Africa gets Cape Colony and Boer republics. Likely another candidate for some entries moved from North America here.
 * Oceania (28 articles)
 * again, English-speaking bias is evident, with Australia sporting 8 subarticles, which is likely 6-7 too many (again, more than any European or Asian country outside UK. Suprisingly, New Zealand has no subarticles (maybe it merits one?).
 * 5 Oceanian territories also may merit cutting, same logic as with Caribbean: History of the Cook Islands, History of Easter Island, History of Niue, History of Norfolk Island, History of the Pitcairn Islands.
 * odd entry Phosphate mining in Banaba and Nauru as a subarticle under History of Nauru, with just 4 interwikis, seems like a regular candidate for removal - will propose below
 * Asia (70 entries) analyzed in a section a bit above.

In summary, some more minor fixes may be needed (I'll revisit Poland), but also, we need to discuss how to handle the major US+Canada (and a bit of Australia/UK) bloat here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:46, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * We could start by removing most of 50 histories of US states. Maybe, we can use a general rule of thumb: if is absent from VA4, then its history probably should not go to VA5. Currently, we have only 8 US states on level 4, so probably a similar number should be considered for staying at VA5. Kammerer55 (talk) 05:44, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @Kammerer55 A very reasonable rule of thumb. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 05:58, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, cut down U.S. histories accordingly.  starship .paint  (RUN) 16:35, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Remove Phosphate mining in Banaba and Nauru
Does not seem vital. Niche economic history. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:46, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) As nom. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:46, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Totalibe (talk) 12:23, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) per nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 14:20, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) Not vital.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:22, 13 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Neutral

It's more important to Nauru than Hammer DeRoburt (VA5 politician).  J 947  ‡ edits 02:57, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Discussion
 * Possibly, but it's whataboutism as well :P But the thing is, Nauru is not important (vital) to the world. I'd say that listing Nauru itself is enough, and even that is not clear (are all independent states vital? If so, why just modern? There's plenty of historical ones we don't list...). Recentism is a form of vital. And arguably nothing else related to such minor entities is vital. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:05, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh, see, I'm fully in agreement with you on this (which is why I'm not opposing). But I can't see the status quo of listing 4 articles on every country changing; the aim is to at least get our priorities right with those 4.  J 947  ‡ edits 03:11, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @J947 I never heard of such a rule. Was this voted on? It seems ridcolous. There are modern-day countries (microstates, etc.) which do not deserve that many articles, and such a rule creates just pointless padding and forcing a balancing act where someone or something vital for world history has to make room for something that is not vital for that level (but vital for some micro-entity). <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 05:54, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * PS. Hammer DeRoburt has ~25 interwikis, mining article just 4. Sure, this is an imperfect metric. But I'd support removing him as well - he is important to Nauru, but not vital to the world's history or politics. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:06, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Broad-topic articles like this are really rare across Wikipedias. There are hundreds of thousands of notable ones we could turn blue on en.wp alone, many of which would immediately make VA5. But I digress.  J 947  ‡ edits 03:11, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @J947 Feel free to continue this digression on my talk page, I find it interesting. I know a ton of stuff is still missing from en wiki, including some broad topics, but if you can think of anything systemic, I'd love to know. Occasionally I can even help by assigning my students to write or translate stuff :) <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 05:56, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

cleanup ideas for Vital articles/Level/5/History
Copied by Interstellarity from user talk page. Leaving some comments here: Feel free to copy my comment to Vital talk page. Note I nominated some of those for outright removal and will do more removal proposal soon. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 06:33, 29 November 2023 (UTC) PS. Some entries on locations might be better moved to Vital articles/Level/5/Geography/Countries. For example Ruthenia might be next to Banat at 'Europe and Russia (400 articles)/General'. Ditto for Galicia (Eastern Europe), Silesia, Pomerania. Kresy and Recovered Territories too, but they may simply not be V5. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 06:38, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * from History by continent and region (47 articles) - Ruthenia is an odball. Should likely be moved to the history by period. Ditto for History of China and its subarticles, History of Korea, India, and Maritime history (that should go to hisory by topic, obviously).
 * I suggest moving everything from 'History by country and subdivision (422 articles)' that is not a history of country or history of subdivision thee as well. That means everythign from History of Poland, and entries on Idel-Ural State, Hudson's Bay Company, Halifax Explosion, entries from US General and Colonial history, Cape Colony, Boer republics, Phosphate mining in Banaba and Nauru, Kuomintang in Burma, Gokishichidō, Provinces of Japan and Straits Settlements.
 * US 'History by demographic group (15 articles)' should be merged with 'History by ethnicity (10 articles)'


 * PPS. And we likely need to add to V5 History of Silesia, History of Galicia (Eastern Europe), History of Pomerania... they are not just for Poland, but Germany/Austria/Russia/Czech/Slovakia in various propotions. We do not have any article on history of Polish main regions for now, they probably would be vital (History of Masovia, History of Lesser Poland, History of Greater Poland - just redirects). <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 06:42, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Remove Archivist
Archive is V4, fine. But in general, jobs often significantly duplicate articles on professions, some don't exist (ex. archeologist is just a redirect). We have historian at V5, fine, we often hear about historians. But how often do we hear about archivists? I'd argue that not often enough to justify them having an entry here. (Quick: can you name a single famous archivist?)--<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 07:11, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  09:28, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Support removal. Also would support swapping with Time capsule or even Primary source . --Kammerer55 (talk) 08:25, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Support per nom. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 14:52, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) per above.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 14:19, 6 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion
 * 1) I think primary source is V5 already. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  09:28, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, you are right, my bad. --Kammerer55 (talk) 10:06, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Swap 9 articles on video game console generations with History of video game consoles
So we have "History by topic (350 articles)". Out of which we have "History of games and sport (44 articles)". And there, 9 articles on video console generations... sigh: # First generation of video game consoles, # Second generation of video game consoles, # Third generation of video game consoles, # Fourth generation of video game consoles, # Fifth generation of video game consoles, # Sixth generation of video game consoles, # Seventh generation of video game consoles, # Eighth generation of video game consoles and # Ninth generation of video game consoles. That's ridcolous. Particularly since we have parent article on History of video game consoles which is not V5. A swap here seems obvious. Note there's also a separate article on Home video game console generations which IMHO needs to be merged to the preceeding one, and anyone who cares to vote here might perchance care to comment at the merge discussion here? --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 07:11, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  09:28, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) --Kammerer55 (talk) 08:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Support We can't keep listing all console generations forever as new ones will come, a more general article will be more future-proof.-- Laukku  TheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 11:58, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) Support I was planning on making this proposal myself. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:08, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Takes up way too many slots. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 6) Support TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:00, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 7) Makes sense, nice consolidation. Curbon7 (talk) 21:38, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose
 * Discussion

Remove Video game crash of 1983
Niche history of a single industry. Sure, this is a big industry now, but it wasn't so in 1983. Untill someone gets History of video games to V4, I think this subarticle is V6 territory. It also seems to me, subjectively, less important than other subarticles (Golden age of arcade video games, History of online games, and the video game console one discussed above) - as in, I've heard of the other three concepts but not of this one. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 07:11, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  09:28, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) --Kammerer55 (talk) 08:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) This had a significant impact on the early development of the industry, such as by allowing for Japanese dominance of the console market, and incidentally, by ending the golden age of arcade video games. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Per Totalibe, although it may make more sense for history of video games to be a level higher than it. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 20:29, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Per Totalibe, plus I would support history of video games at VA4. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:46, 16 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Discussion

Remove History of rodeo
is V4, so there's that. But. No interwikis. Minor presence at Olympics. I don't feel this is in the same league as most other sports, which are also usually much more international. I am not sure rodeo should be V4, frankly. I'd suggest swap with History of circus but that doesn't exist (yet). is V4. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 07:11, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  09:28, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) --Kammerer55 (talk) 08:36, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Support I doubt Rodeo is of sufficient importance to have its history listed; the sport gets less pageviews than most if not all of the other sports which have their history included.-- Laukku  TheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 15:39, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Very niche. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 5) Support niche.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:02, 9 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Remove History of webcomics
Webcomics are new enough many folks haven't even heard of the concept. History of comics is just V5. This seems like V6 topic. Just one interwiki. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 07:11, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  09:28, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) --Kammerer55 (talk) 08:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 14:52, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) Not that well-distinguished enough from comics overall, and fairly niche as a subset of that. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 5)  J  947  ‡ edits 08:27, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 6) OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 01:07, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Remove History of the nude in art
Effectively a subarticle and partial duplication of the broader History of erotic depictions, which is just V5. This seems like V6. It is also too specific, we don't list and likely would not have room at V5 for history of concepts in arts. Btw, Portrait is V4 but Portrait painting is not vital. Perhaps a swap? --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 07:11, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  09:28, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) --Kammerer55 (talk) 08:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) per nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 05:55, 6 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose

We don't list Nude (art), it should be listed rather than its history.-- Laukku  TheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 11:58, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Discussion


 * @LaukkuTheGreit Do consider nominating it. It seems like something to discuss, together with the portrait painting IMHO. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 13:37, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Sounds reasonable to add.  starship .paint  (RUN) 05:55, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Remove History of Harvard University
Sure, one of the most famous universities (V4), but I don't feel its history is V5. It stands quite jarring in 'History of everyday life (11 articles)'. I am not sure if we list any other histories of companies, maybe we should but arguably there are more important ones. History of Ford Motor Company is not vital, neither is History of Microsoft. Is Harvard University the only company with its history at V5? This cannot be right, either we need more companies or none. Mind you, I'd be fine considering instead adding histories of all companies and organizations listed at V4, but it should be all or nothing, IMHO. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 07:20, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  09:28, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Strong support. --Kammerer55 (talk) 08:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) If anything, what should be V5 is History of universities or History of higher education, which for now don't exist or is a redirect. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 14:48, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) per above.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 14:19, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 5) TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:04, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Remove History of the hippie movement and History of the punk subculture
Based on the logic that parent History of modern Western subcultures is just V5 and unless we get it to V4, those subarticles seem like V6. Reinforcing this, articles on hippie and punk subcultures are also just V5. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 07:20, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Support as nom. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  09:28, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) --Kammerer55 (talk) 08:38, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) For the the hippie movement we already have Counterculture of the 1960s. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) per above.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 14:19, 6 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * Discussion

Remove four articles on four waves of feminism
Based on the logic that parent History of feminism is just V5 and unless we get it to V4, those subarticles (First-wave feminism, Second-wave feminism, Third-wave feminism, Fourth-wave feminism) seem like V6. Mind you, they have quite a few interwikis, and maybe we should discuss promoting the main article here to V4 instead? That said, right now it looks somewhat jarring that in the 'History of society and the social sciences (35 articles)', feminism is the entry with most subarticles, second just to History of economy (5 articles). History of education for example has none. The balance is off. And history of economy is V4. Further, history of sociology and psychology, both V4, have no subarticles. Naaah... --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 07:20, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) as nom. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 07:35, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Strong support. Only first-wave feminism seems somewhat notable, but it is already covered by Women's suffrage of level 4. --Kammerer55 (talk) 08:15, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose I don't agree with parent topics having to be on a higher level. That said, Feminism is VA3 and important enough IMO to have its waves listed. They were different evolutions of feminism, with respective cultural impacts.-- Laukku  TheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 11:58, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose These are important and widely-used concepts to distinguish between different historical forms of feminism, it feels a lot less trivial and space-consuming than nine game console generations just since the 1970s. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose because I'm OK with the history of feminism having multiple articles at this level  p  b  p  18:16, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) Strong oppose per Totalibe.  The  Blue  Rider  Postal horn icon.svg 19:40, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Discussion

Remove History of rail transport before 1700
First, History of rail transport is not at V4 yet, second, this is rather trivial, since as anyone knows, rail did not really took off until 18th-19th centuries. This article is just a dubious list of trivia that may merit AfD, not a vital listing, IMHO. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 07:35, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) as nom. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 07:35, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) --Kammerer55 (talk) 08:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 3)  J  947  ‡ edits 09:58, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose

Minor note: I've listed that article on WP:AFD. Mildy curious who added it here. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 09:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Discussion
 * Articles for deletion/History of rail transport before 1700 closed and the article is deleted. Does that mean it is automatically delisted?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:05, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I was told recently that yes, this is common sense too. I suggest this is closed now, we had consensus to remova above anyway. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 06:26, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and removed it. I hold that redlinks can be removed on sight.-- Laukku  TheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 11:48, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Remove 2008 Universal Studios fire
Nobody died. Some cultural artifacts were lost, but it's not even clear which ones, and it is a relativley trivial incident. Only 6 interwikis. Maybe consider swaping with Notre-Dame fire? But I don't think that one is vital at V5 either. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 09:37, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) as nom. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 09:37, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Support-- Laukku  TheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 11:58, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Not a major historical event. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) per above.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 14:19, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 5) Support-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:06, 9 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Remove Aftermath of the January 6 United States Capitol attack
Too recent. January 6 United States Capitol attack is just V5 and this is its subarticle, and the main article covers key points of the aftermath already. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 09:37, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) as nom. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 09:37, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) --Kammerer55 (talk) 10:15, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Recentism, the main article already has a large section on the aftermath.-- Laukku  TheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 11:58, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) Per nom. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 5) per nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:07, 9 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) An outline of democratic failure in the world's democratic superpower is what I'd call vital.  J  947  ‡ edits 09:57, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * What's so important in the aftermath particularly that is not covered by the main topic? That Trump was impeached (but not removed) second time, a week before he would leave anyway? This is too US-centric. --Kammerer55 (talk) 10:15, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @Kammerer55 What Kammmerer said. The attack itself is likely vital, if very recent. But until it makes V4, subarticle for such a recent development seems not needed. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 13:35, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Discussion

Remove Flint water crisis
A dozen fatalities. What makes this sad but relatively trivial local incident vital? --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 09:37, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) as nom. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 09:37, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) My understanding is that this is well-known but incredibly overblown. It's the sort of thing we should desire not to list IMO.  J  947  ‡ edits 09:56, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Support Recentism, of such small scale it will likely fade to obscurity.-- Laukku  TheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 11:58, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) There are likely to be even more fatalities from this over time due to the long-term effects of lead exposure (especially with several thousand children exposed), not to mention it lasted nearly five years. For comaprison, there were only a few dozen "direct" deaths from the Chernobyl disaster. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The difference with Chernobyl is that Chernobyl cordoned off a sizeable proportion of Ukraine and a nuclear power plant meltdown has more wide-ranging impacts than water poisoning. Both Chernobyl and Flint have a reputation that outmatches their influence, but both reputation and influence are much much higher for Chernobyl. (And Chernobyl's inclusion at VA4 seems somewhat out of place at a glance.)  J 947  ‡ edits 08:04, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) Effects are ongoing.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:08, 9 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Discussion

Swap Exploration of Jupiter with Exploration of the Moon or Discovery and exploration of the Solar System
Setting aside why this is under history (as it is an ongoing science), this is just a rather random choice related to the space exploration (V3). I suggest replacing it with either Exploration of the Moon or Discovery and exploration of the Solar System (or perhaps, both topics). Side note: should Exploration of Mars be moved to some other section (about current science)? --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) As nom. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Support removing Exploration of Jupiter and adding both alternatives. --Kammerer55 (talk) 13:33, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Support removal and both additions-- Laukku  TheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 15:39, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) Support removal and both additions Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Remove Year 2000 problem
This was an amusing news headline and minor engineering issue back then. It was rather trivial and I can hardly see it as vital. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) As nom. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Compared to other events listed in its section,  is much weaker. It probably caused some scare, but did not affect industry much. The article itself is not clear regarding how much the issue was overblown. Maybe, it's still more significant than some of the historical items listed at Level 5 / Technology, but I doubt it. Also, the broader  is just at level 5 as well. --Kammerer55 (talk) 08:25, 2 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) As an alternative to removal, I will suggest moving it to the Technology section, as I'd argue it was more significant as a once-common computer error than as a mass historical event. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) per Totalibe-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:10, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) per Totalibe, move.  starship .paint  (RUN) 06:38, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

For the record, Britannica has an article on it. Also, according to it: "An estimated $300 billion was spent (almost half in the United States) to upgrade computers and application programs to be Y2K-compliant." On the other hand, even if it was costly at the time the long-term effects of the cost may indeed be negligible.-- Laukku  TheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 12:47, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Discussion

Remove Treaty of Paris between Italy and the Allied Powers
Nothing in this article suggests this was particularly significant. Just 14 interwikis. It was the legal end of the Italian colonial empire, but that article is V5 too, and we have a bunch of decolonization articles and history of Italy ones that cover related topics in more detail (most at V5 too). --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 13:03, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) As nom. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) --Kammerer55 (talk) 13:35, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) per nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 06:39, 6 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Remove Great Train Wreck of 1918
"It is considered the worst rail accident in U.S. history", but it is mostly forgotten today. The article does not suggest this had any impact on culture, or even US itself. Just 5 interwikis. Seems like niche American history event. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 13:03, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) As nom. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Support-- Laukku  TheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 15:39, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) per above.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 14:19, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) If we were to list a train wreck, which I don't think we do (aside from this one) and am not sure we should, this wouldn't be it.  J  947  ‡ edits 02:13, 19 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) I think we should continue to highlight the worst rail accident in U.S. history.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:15, 9 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Discussion

Remove Handover of Macau
Not as vital as Handover of Hong Kong. Macau is not Hong Kong, it did not and does not generate news or historical interest, I fear. 16 interwikis. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 13:03, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) As nom. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) per above.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 14:19, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:16, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) Agree with The Blue Rider, but would rather list Portuguese Macau than this discrete event.  J  947  ‡ edits 02:17, 19 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Misleading rational. Macau is way more historically important than Hong Kong. It was for a very long time the only port city and colony available in China to foreign; the Brits, Portuguese, French, Danish, etc, used it extensively. It's handover is significant because during half a millennium was under Portuguese rule and for the first time the CCP had full control over its territory. If we delist this we should add Portuguese Macau.  The  Blue  Rider  Postal horn icon.svg 18:30, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, its handover put the end of the Portuguese Empire, since it the last colony. The handover also had significant impacts on the culture (language, architecture, religion, etc), economy (gambling in Macau), political (one country, two systems) of not only Portugal and Macau but to China as well.  The Blue  Rider  Postal horn icon.svg 18:37, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) Per The Blue Rider. QuicoleJR (talk) 00:58, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Discussion

Remove Expulsion of the Chagossians
Pretty minor event. Nobody died, few hundred people were affected. Just 3 interwikis. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 13:03, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) As nom. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose The numbers are more in the thousands than hundreds, and that aside, this was ultimately still the forced expulsion of the entire population of a cultural/ethnic group from their native territory. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @Totalibe I am uneasy with this being at the same level as, , , or . How about a swap then, for non-vital yet Genocide of Serbs in the Independent State of Croatia? Or Chetnik war crimes in World War II? Or Guatemalan genocide? Or Isaaq genocide? Or Gukurahundi? Or Ikiza? Semi-random links from Genocide sidebar, WWII-Cold War period, where almost all have 5-digits death tolls. Here, again, we don't have a single reported fatality. Somethign is wrong with our priorities is we list this but not the other articles, or IMHO if we classify all of them at the same vitality level. For me,  Expulsion of the Chagossians seems like V6 event. One more example, this one from Polish history I am quite familiar with: Operation Vistula - not vital. Forced resettlement of over 100k people. Another obvious swap candiate, no? <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  04:42, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Note this event is pretty much why we list British Indian Ocean Territory at VA4.  J 947  ‡ edits 02:22, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Discussion

Remove USS Liberty (AGTR-5)
Minor trivia related to the 1967 Six-Day War. It's not even an article about an incident but about a particular ship, and arguably many more ships were more vital for the world history - and we don't list them. We could swap this for the USS Liberty incident but still, this was a minor incident. And Titanic is V5 too - and this is not at the same level. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 13:03, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) As nom. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) --Kammerer55 (talk) 14:20, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) per above.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 14:19, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) Relatively minor incident, except amongst neo-Nazis. Friendly-fire incidents are not terribly rare in naval history. Curbon7 (talk) 21:48, 9 December 2023 (UTC) Curbon7 (talk) 21:43, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose
 * Discussion

Remove 1932 New South Wales constitutional crisis
"the first real constitutional crisis in Australia" is not important for the world history, as evidenced by zero interwikis. Niche incident from Australian legal history that is V6 at best. Nothing in the article suggests it was imporant - even to Australia itself. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 13:03, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) As nom. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) --Kammerer55 (talk) 14:21, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) I'd suggest swapping for Stolen Generations. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) per above.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 14:19, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 5) Far from the level of, say, the 1975 Australian constitutional crisis, which is also VA5. Curbon7 (talk) 21:50, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 6)  p  b  p  18:26, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose
 * Discussion

Remove Food safety incidents in China - or swap for Food safety
Pretty specific topic. I have trouble seeing how this collection of minor (not all individually notable events) is vital at V5. How about we make Food safety vital first? It is not. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 13:03, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) As nom. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Support swapping with Food safety. Curbon7 (talk) 03:55, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Per nom, swap.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 05:52, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) Support swap per nom. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 14:57, 4 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Weak oppose (or swap with Food safety in China), and food safety should definitely be listed too.  J  947  ‡ edits 22:27, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Discussion

Remove Typhoon Nari (2001)
Nothing in this short article suggests this was particularly significant. 104 deaths. It does not even make it to the List of the deadliest tropical cyclones where fatalities are usually at four digits. Seems like another weird random addition (by whom, I wonder?). --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 13:03, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) As nom. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2)  J  947  ‡ edits 22:29, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) per above.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 14:19, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) --Thi (talk) 20:34, 18 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * Discussion

Remove 2019–20 Australian bushfire season
Pretty recent - and that's about it. Nothing special, particularly in the current climate change where similar events are sadly more and more common. Just 30+ fatalities, and the same section lists earlier Black Saturday bushfires which had almost 200 deaths. That should be enough for Australian bushfires, I think - its local history that's hardly significant at V5 IMHO. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 13:03, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) As nom. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) per nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 14:19, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:46, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 4) Not one of the most vital wildfires.  The  Blue  Rider  Postal horn icon.svg 14:11, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose
 * 1) Weak oppose.  J 947  ‡ edits 22:28, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @J947 Because? <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 01:29, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose, pretty vital per CO2 released and impact calculations. Respublik (talk) 15:40, 12 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Discussion

Remove 2005–2006 Fijian political crisis
Setting aside the relevance of Fiji to the world history, the article does not suggest importance, even local. Nobody died, lead talks about "strong words being exchanged" leading to some political developemnts - and then 2006 Fijian coup d'état, which is V5. I am unsure if even that coup should be V5, but its prelude certainly is not important enough to be here. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 13:03, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) As nom. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) per nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 14:19, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Coup is already listed. Curbon7 (talk) 21:51, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) --Thi (talk) 20:34, 18 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * Discussion

Remove 2005 Cronulla riots
Riots in Australia. Nobody died, 200+ people arrested, not particlary enduring in culture or known internationally (7 interwikis). Niche local history. Ferguson unrest or George Floyd protests are V5 too, for example - this was not at the same level. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 13:03, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) As nom. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) per nom.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 14:19, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Weak support. There're probably better options to cover race riots.  J  947  ‡ edits 02:26, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 4) Per nominator.  The  Blue  Rider  Postal horn icon.svg 20:45, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Remove 1982 invasion of the Falkland Islands
This is listed alongside Falklands War and it seems highly redundant as the opening act to a fairly short war fought in an area with a low population. Even though I wouldn't support adding it, ARA General Belgrano would make more sense than this.


 * Support
 * 1) Nom Totalibe (talk) 17:10, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Per nominator.  The  Blue  Rider  Postal horn icon.svg 17:59, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) per nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:00, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) Falklands War is enough. QuicoleJR (talk) 02:23, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 5) Support per nom.  J 947  ‡ edits 03:24, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 6) Pile on per nom. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 11:27, 5 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Remove small New England cities
I don't consider any of these small cities particularly notable. I question whether they deserve a spot since cities (2,025/2,000), Americas (384/360) and North America (229/210 articles) remain over quota. I think there may be consensus that these are among the bottom 19 North America cities or bottom 24 Americas cities.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:44, 25 November 2023 (UTC)


 * 1) Lowell, Massachusetts (115,554, 71 interwikis)
 * 2) Cambridge, Massachusetts (118,403, 87 interwikis)
 * 3) New Haven, Connecticut (135,081, 91 interwikis)
 * FWIW, if you look at county instead of city proper, things look a little different.  Lowell and Cambridge part of Middlesex County, pop. 1,617,105 (21st-largest county in USA, would be 40th-largest metropolitan area if stand-alone).  New Haven was part of New Haven County, pop. 864,835 (would be 69th-largest metropolitan area if stand-alone) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Purplebackpack89 (talk • contribs) 01:40, November 26, 2023 (UTC) -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:23, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Remove Lowell

 * Support
 * 1) As nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:44, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Not particularly famous or well known, and US is over quota. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  03:22, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) per above.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 04:08, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) Totalibe (talk) 08:32, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 5) I don’t see it being more vital than Springfield, which isn’t listed. Interstellarity (talk) 17:48, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 6) Boston only needs one suburb. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 12:21, 18 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Was at one point the 18th-largest city in the country.  Also important for historic link to the textile industry.   p  b  p  01:26, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Neutral on this one. There are better candidates for removal in New England anyway.  J 947  ‡ edits 07:31, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Discussion

Remove Cambridge

 * Oppose
 * 1) Site of one of America's preeminent universities.  Was at one point the 31st-largest city in the country.  Old city by American standards, nearly 400 years old.   p  b  p  01:26, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Having two elite+historical universities provides an enduring claim to the city's importance.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 04:08, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Per above Totalibe (talk) 08:32, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) Oppose per above as a vital subtopic of Boston.  J  947  ‡ edits 07:33, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 5) Per comments above. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 12:21, 18 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Discussion
 * 1) Neutral as nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:44, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Unlike the two other cities, it is a bit more famous IMHO, perhaps because the university is so famous the town became well known. Interestingly I don't think this is true for Yale-New Haven below. Could be just my subjective bias, but I think Oxtord and Cambridge can be vital as archotypical university cities. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:22, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think Oxford, Massachusetts, is vital.  J 947  ‡ edits 03:40, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * - you seem to have confused Cambridge, England (not vital, perhaps it should be?), and Cambridge, Massachusetts? Oxford, England is level 5 vital.  starship .paint  (RUN) 04:46, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Leaning remove now. Or swap. UK's Cambridge is IMHO better know of the two. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 10:18, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Remove New Haven

 * Support
 * 1) Yale is famous and vital, but it does not lend its vitality to the city it is located in. Overall, not very famous and US is over quota. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  03:22, 26 November 2023 (UTC) --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  03:22, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) per above.  starship  .paint  (RUN) 04:08, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Totalibe (talk) 08:32, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) Per my comment below. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 12:21, 18 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Site of one of America's preeminent universities.  Was one of the 50 largest cities in the country for over a century, and the largest city in Connecticut for even longer. Old city by American standards, nearly 400 years old.   p  b  p  01:26, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Per pbp. QuicoleJR (talk) 11:17, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Location of Yale and also location of one of the largest race riots during the Long, Hot Summer of 1967. Aurangzebra 7:48, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) Per pbp. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 16:01, 22 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Discussion
 * Neutral as nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:44, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I think Connecticut probably only warrants two cities, which would necessitate including just one of /  /, but it's very difficult to decide which.  J  947  ‡ edits 07:45, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * While I don’t support listing every U.S. state capital, I do support listing every state’s largest city, and Connecticut’s largest city is Bridgeport. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 12:12, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I would rather have New Haven than Bridgeport. I'm not convinced population is enough justify the latter's inclusion. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 16:01, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Remove small Western U.S. cities
I don't consider either of these small cities particularly notable. I question whether they deserve a spot since cities (2,025/2,000), Americas (384/360) and North America (229/210 articles) remain over quota. I think there should be consensus that these are among the bottom 19 North America cities or bottom 24 Americas cities.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:24, 25 November 2023 (UTC)


 * 1) Fairbanks, Alaska (95,655, 85 interwikis)
 * 2) Palm Springs, California (44,575, 66 interwikis)

Remove Fairbanks

 * Support
 * 1) As nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:24, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) US is over quota, and nothing strikes me here as vital. Just a regular city. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:25, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Apart from the fact that it's in the middle of Alaska?  J 947  ‡ edits 03:40, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) per above.  starship .paint  (RUN) 04:41, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Totalibe (talk) 08:32, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Anchorage is enough to be listed at this level. Juneau might be a good candidate for removal, but I might support a case of retention due to it being the state’s capital. Interstellarity (talk) 17:45, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 11:11, 18 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) I've thought about this long and hard and in that time I'm surprised this removal has received such overwhelming support. Its lack of history is a clear and major downside but its size for its location (inland and a long way north) is remarkable. It's only really matched in this regard by Yakutsk and Norilsk in Russia. We're traditionally pretty generous on Arctic cities and the like, and for me Fairbanks is more vital to clearly more vital than Anadyr, or Tromsø, or Iqaluit – all of which we list.  J 947  ‡ edits 03:40, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * fyi I think Anadyr should be removed Totalibe (talk) 21:39, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * That’s exactly what I was thinking! The Russian Far East probably needs five cities at most. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 23:09, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) Per pbp. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 08:48, 14 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Discussion


 * Support Remove Palm Springs
 * 1) As nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:24, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) US is over quota, and nothing strikes me here as vital. Just a regular city. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:25, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Per above, and we have many other Californian cities already.  starship .paint  (RUN) 04:36, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) Totalibe (talk) 08:32, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 5) Interstellarity (talk) 17:45, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Happy to be proven otherwise, but surely this city is an out-of-place inclusion?  J 947  ‡ edits 07:28, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Unsure given pbp's comment.  J 947  ‡ edits 07:55, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) Not even the largest city in a relatively small region (<1% of California’s population). OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 11:11, 18 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose

The inclusion of Palm Springs is similar to that of Atlantic City: a resort area, and the anchor of a populous region (300,000+ in the Coachella Valley) p  b  p  17:30, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Discussion

Remove History of the Northwest Territories, History of Nunavut, and History of Yukon
These territories don't have very much significance in Canada compared to the provinces. Interstellarity (talk) 01:52, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 01:52, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) . and are just V5. They don't merit 'history of' at the same level, this is V6 stuff. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  02:28, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Support removal of History of Nunavut. Neutral on other two.  Chipmunkdavis has a point below about the NWT and Yukon's history might be vital because of the Klondike Gold Rush and the Alcan.  p  b  p  13:40, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) Support Nunavut, weakly support Yukon and the Northwest Territories. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 15:05, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 5) TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:03, 13 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Oppose for History of the Northwest Territories. These articles are a bit of a mess regarding content and scoping, but the Northwest Territories was once most of Canada. The history here encompasses the development of the Canadian interior, and later the development of the Canadian Arctic. CMD (talk) 02:07, 10 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Neutral

I think it is also worth considering some removals for the Canadian provinces as well. Articles such as History of Prince Edward Island, History of Newfoundland and Labrador, and History of New Brunswick are articles I would support removing. Articles such as History of Nova Scotia, History of Saskatchewan, and History of Manitoba are articles I would weakly support removal, but am open to changing my mind on why they shouldn't be removed. Interstellarity (talk) 01:52, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Discussion
 * Actually Newfoundland is one I would definitely vote to keep. It has a very distinct historical and cultural identity, with a very high Irish population, and wasn't even part of Canada until 1949. Totalibe (talk) 21:32, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Remove History of Anguilla
Not a significant part of the Caribbean to be covering. Interstellarity (talk) 01:57, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 01:57, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) I don't think minor entities like are vital at this level anyway, and certainly their history should not be, if they are V5 - they don't need 'history of' here. I am pretty sure we could find a V4 article that needs history of swapped in isntead. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  01:43, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) This territory is not important enough to have its history at this level. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:47, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) Totalibe (talk) 23:46, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 5)  p  b  p  04:40, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 6) TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:04, 13 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Neutral


 * Discussion

Add 1900s
Only decade in the 20th century not listed. Interstellarity (talk) 01:11, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 01:11, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) --Makkool (talk) 19:02, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:08, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 4) Totalibe (talk) 17:17, 17 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Neutral


 * Discussion

Swap 2014 Vrbětice ammunition warehouse explosions for Carnation Revolution
I had not heard of these explosions before seeing the page listed here, it seems like a relatively minor industrial incident (albeit one that cost two lives) and didn't have a great deal of international significance until the implication of Russia years later, and it still seems like a fairly small part of the deteroiating relations between Russia and Europe after Euromaidan. The Carnation Revolution brough the political regime that controlled Portugal for forty years to an end, led directly to the establishment of the current Portugese state and was the only revolution to occur in Western Europe since the end of WW2.


 * Support
 * 1) As nom Totalibe (talk) 23:46, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Support: excellent proposal.  J  947  ‡ edits 02:20, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Portugal! Carnation Revolution is perhaps the most consequential event in modern Portuguese history.  The  Blue  Rider  Postal horn icon.svg 04:27, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 4) One is definitely more important than the other. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:44, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 5) Support per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 07:21, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 6) Sure. The 2014 event is barely notable (just two deaths); 9 interwikis. I'd not support it even at V6. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  11:40, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 7) TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:09, 13 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discussion

Remove
This simply is not vital. This section does not need to have this many articles, and this one seems like an easy cut. We do not list the similar geological history of Europe.


 * Support
 * 1) As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 23:27, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) --Makkool (talk) 19:01, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) Per nominator.  The  Blue  Rider  Postal horn icon.svg 18:34, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 4) One of many articles from the US section that need to go to deal with sysbias issues. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  11:41, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 5) TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:10, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose


 * Neutral


 * Discuss

Add History of the potato
is listed at VA3, and they have been important to human history for thousands of years. This could arguably make VA4. It is listed as High-Importance by the Agriculture and Food & Drink WikiProjects.


 * Support
 * 1) As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:10, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) I think I suggested it in some comment... count me in. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 11:42, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) Weak support.  J  947  ‡ edits 00:01, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 4) The spread of crops is an important part of human history. Totalibe (talk) 23:30, 15 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) I think the potato article already covers enough of its history. Contrary to social movements or countries in which their history holds a special place in the heart of many, the history of a crop is not particularly significant to people, the crop itself is.  The  Blue  Rider  Postal horn icon.svg 01:23, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) Are there other history of foodstuffs at VA? Vital_articles/Level/5/History has little content to support this type of inclusion. I could see this setting a precedent for a dozen unnecessary foodstuff histories.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:18, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Neutral
 * 1) I'd get food history to V4 first. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 19:55, 20 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Discuss

Swap with
Nationalism's rise within the Ottoman Empire was a key factor for its dissolution, but the latter is much more encompassing. It included the formation of, for example. As the empire fragmented post-World War I, vacuums emerged, resulting in the rise of nations in the Balkans and Middle East. The dissolution caused the loss of a unifying Islamic authority and this led to power struggles and tensions that still impact today's world.  The Blue  Rider   18:34, 3 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) As nominator.  The Blue  Rider  Postal horn icon.svg 18:34, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 2) The second one is more important, plus the parent topic is only at VA5. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:17, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) Agreed with what is said above. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 11:43, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 4) Support per nom.  J  947  ‡ edits 00:02, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 5) Totalibe (talk) 23:30, 15 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

cleanup ideas for Vital articles/Level/5/History
Copied by Interstellarity from user talk page. Leaving some comments here: Feel free to copy my comment to Vital talk page. Note I nominated some of those for outright removal and will do more removal proposal soon. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 06:33, 29 November 2023 (UTC) PS. Some entries on locations might be better moved to Vital articles/Level/5/Geography/Countries. For example Ruthenia might be next to Banat at 'Europe and Russia (400 articles)/General'. Ditto for Galicia (Eastern Europe), Silesia, Pomerania. Kresy and Recovered Territories too, but they may simply not be V5. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 06:38, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * from History by continent and region (47 articles) - Ruthenia is an odball. Should likely be moved to the history by period. Ditto for History of China and its subarticles, History of Korea, India, and Maritime history (that should go to hisory by topic, obviously).
 * I suggest moving everything from 'History by country and subdivision (422 articles)' that is not a history of country or history of subdivision thee as well. That means everythign from History of Poland, and entries on Idel-Ural State, Hudson's Bay Company, Halifax Explosion, entries from US General and Colonial history, Cape Colony, Boer republics, Phosphate mining in Banaba and Nauru, Kuomintang in Burma, Gokishichidō, Provinces of Japan and Straits Settlements.
 * US 'History by demographic group (15 articles)' should be merged with 'History by ethnicity (10 articles)'


 * PPS. And we likely need to add to V5 History of Silesia, History of Galicia (Eastern Europe), History of Pomerania... they are not just for Poland, but Germany/Austria/Russia/Czech/Slovakia in various propotions. We do not have any article on history of Polish main regions for now, they probably would be vital (History of Masovia, History of Lesser Poland, History of Greater Poland - just redirects). <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 06:42, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Bottom 10% VA5/History articles by pageviews
This was the final such VA5 list I had lying around, I was a bit too lazy to post it until now. Least viewed first, using pageviews from 2020-01-01 to 2023-11-02:

A bit out of date, e.g. has already been removed.-- Laukku  TheGreit  (Talk•Contribs) 21:10, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Remove Bolton
Bolton is a town of ~200k that is largely subsumed into Greater Manchester, which makes its distinctiveness a lot more questionable than it would be otherwise. In terms of special historical importance, it was a centre for mills and textiles which boomed during the 19th century, but then again so was Manchester, the city which grew and absorbed it.


 * Support
 * 1) As nom Totalibe (talk) 16:00, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Per nom. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 16:56, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) The population is not bad, but I just do not see how it is vital. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:53, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 03:38, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 5) Yep a tier below.  J  947  ‡ edits 22:41, 19 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Discuss

National capitals removals
These don't seem to have much significance compared to other capitals. Interstellarity (talk) 12:37, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Yaren District

 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 12:37, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 2)  J  947  ‡ edits 01:26, 21 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) Capital cities of independent states are an important lens through which people learn about the world and different countries. I'm not opposed to removing capitals of overseas territories etc but independent states should stay. Totalibe (talk) 21:39, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Per Totalibe. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 16:05, 22 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Neutral
 * 1) I only proposed the removal of Ngerulmud due to lack of permanent population, but this isn’t much better, at under 800. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 13:10, 20 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Discussion

Hagåtña, Guam

 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 12:37, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Absolutely, with its population of under 1000. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 13:10, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Too small and not even the capital city of an independent country, just a territory. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:38, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) Pop <1k. Not vital by any stretch of imagination. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 13:50, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 5) Guam itself is small enough for the entire island to be its own metro area. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 05:50, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 6) TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:08, 28 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) I think we need to keep either Hagåtña or Pago Pago (we've never had ) and Hagåtña is the capital of the bigger territory.  As with Annapolis, this is a city vs. metro area conundrum  p  b  p  20:13, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * We list Saipan under islands. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 00:09, 21 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Neutral


 * Discussion

Pago Pago

 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 12:37, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) If we have a city in a U.S. territory other than PR, it’s Charlotte Amalie. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 13:10, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Pop 4.5k. Seriously, what is this doing here? --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 13:49, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 4) feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 05:48, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 5) TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:04, 28 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Neutral


 * Discussion

Vaduz

 * Support
 * 1) Interstellarity (talk) 12:37, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) I just don't get the point that this is less more vital than Lucerne, etc.  J  947  ‡ edits 01:27, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * User:J947, your response seems to support an addition not a removal.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:46, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Fixed, thanks.  J 947  ‡ edits 20:26, 25 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * 1) As the capital of a country of 40k. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 13:10, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Capital cities of independent states are an important lens through which people learn about the world and different countries. I'm not opposed to removing capitals of overseas territories etc but independent states should stay. Totalibe (talk) 21:39, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) True national capital.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:47, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) A capital thus it have inherent vitality, we should also add City of San Marino.  The  Blue  Rider  Postal horn icon.svg 11:42, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 5) Between Vaduz (pop. 5,696) and Ngerulmud (pop. 0), I'd keep Vaduz. Liechtenstein is also significantly larger than Palau, both population-wise and (especially) economically. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 12:36, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 6) Per above. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 16:05, 22 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Neutral


 * Discussion