Wikipedia talk:Welsh Wikipedians' notice board/Archive 1

Notice Board
This is just to get things going - I've copied some things over from the Wales Portal and added one or two. We don't seem to have a lot of Featured Articles or Good Articles with a Welsh connection. Or maybe I've missed some? If so, please add them.

Please add any articles you think could become Good Articles or Featured Articles with a bit of improvement, or even might already be good enough to nominate. Rhion 20:42, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

The request for cawl cennin
I've seen the request for cawl cennin on a couple of pages now, but I don't know where it comes from. Does the requester know there's a Cawl stub? Might be worth just expanding that, perhaps? --Telsa 13:36, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Good point. I don't know who requested it - possibly "Cawl cennin" could be created as a redirect to the "Cawl" article. I'm not sure how to expand the Cawl article though. Does anybody have any ideas? Rhion 09:32, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Piccies
I have some pictures I keep meaning to upload, but the whole Commons upload and categorise process seems really involved and complicated. If someone could give me a hand, I'd be really grateful, because I am completely muddled about what I have to do in what order. Pictures include Nevern's yew corridor, bleeding yew and Celtic cross, the Gorsedd at an eisteddfod proclamation, scenes inside Swansea Market, bits of a smashing old map of south Wales in the museum stores (undated alas, but given the amount of woodland marked south of Merthyr Tydfil, I suspect pre-1800), submerged woodland at low tide in Swansea Bay, the Corris Railway, and several of a slightly (ahem) muddy Eisteddfod maes. Any requests for "we need that one first" will be cheerfully considered, but not much will happen until I figure out how I am supposed to be doing this. I seem to remember it took me a day of reading to do the last one. --Telsa 13:36, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Just a small point, but you are far better uploading all images directly to Commons, rather than the English-language Wikipedia. It is exactly the same procedure, but has the huge advantage that all language editions of Wikipedia can simply access images. The code used in articles is identical.--Mais oui! 13:48, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * If you upload your images to Commons and drop a note here when you are done, I will certainly lend a hand in categorising them etc. Provided you include the right licensing info when you upload - Public domain is probably safest if you are happy with that - that will stop the images from being deleted. Velela 15:17, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Celtic Mythology
I have said on the talk page to it, and on the Scottish board, that a great deal of the material is well meaning disinformation, usually of the New Age variety. --MacRusgail 13:59, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Men with Welsh descendants signed American Independence
Americas constution and declaration of independence was created by people of Welsh descent. I have also learned that there are loads of people running the U.S. today are of Welsh descent, though I don't see much of this on wikipedia.

Draig goch20 15:09, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

.You haven't seen Category:Welsh-Americans then? See also British-American. We really need a Welsh equivalent to the Scottish-American article.--Mais oui! 10:13, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

.. Agreed - a Welsh-American article needs to be created - there is a lot which could be said. I'll add it to the list of wanted articles. Rhion 12:29, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Having started the article, I then found there was already a Welsh-Americans article listing a great many Welsh-Americans. Doh! Still I think there's a place for both - I've started a bit about Welsh emigration and settlement in the U.S. in Welsh American with a short list of famous people here and a reference to Welsh-Americans for a complete list. Rhion 16:38, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Requested merge
I have requested that the new British language (Celtic) article be merged into the Welsh language article. Contribute at Talk:Welsh language.--Mais oui! 10:14, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

POV campaign continuing at the Plaid Cymru article
With dismay I note that hostilities have resumed at the Plaid Cymru article. Is that party an advocate of Nationalism or Welsh nationalism? And what is the party's official title: Have your say on these topics and others at Talk:Plaid Cymru, and I really do urge Users to up the quality of the Politics of Wales article and the entire coverage of Welsh politics here at Wikipedia: the standard of presentation and sourcing is truly lamentable at present.
 * Plaid Cymru, or
 * Plaid Cymru - Party of Wales

(For some reason we Scots seem to (rather surprisingly) work well together in this subject area, whatever our allegiances, but the Wales-related articles seem to lack this atmosphere. I think that the result is quite obvious if you look at the depth and quality of the coverage of Scottish politics, compared to Welsh. Not that I mean to boast or anything... )--Mais oui! 10:13, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

List of rulers of Wales
The article List of rulers of Wales has had a lot of very questionable material added to it - a list of the "High Kings of Britain" for example. It needs some surgery - see the article's discussion page. Rhion 16:23, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Ar Log
Someone added a lot of material to Ar Log. I promptly removed about half. Sorry! The removed stuff is all on Talk:Ar Log page pending rewrite, verification, and so on, but beyond owning two CDs, I don't know much about them except for their connection with Dafydd Iwan &mdash; a link which doesn't seem to impress the recent editor &mdash; their longevity, and their well-known-ness, or whatever the word is. To my annoyance, I can't find any sources to say some of the facts that seem to be worth adding: comparisons with other bands, what Alan Stivell said about them, etc. Despite my removal of references to genius, world-class, pioneering, etc, I do like the music, and any band around for 30 years has to have more to say about them than a list of lineup changes. And at the moment, I don't think the article does them justice at all. But I don't know how best to improve it. Help from someone who knows the subject would be much appreciated. Telsa (talk) 11:03, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Ignore the above. The same person then added a lot of really good stuff too, and it's much more complete now. Telsa (talk) 14:37, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Emrys Hughes
I have started the Emrys Hughes article. --MacRusgail 16:54, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I've added a bit to it. Rhion 21:46, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Castle drive this week
Hi all -- this week I've taken up working on a few of the Welsh castles that need either creating or de-stubbing. I worked yesterday on Aberystwyth Castle and have a bit more to do today; my goal is to also create Rhuddlan Castle and Builth Castle this week. More eyes and minds are welcome, particularly at Aberystwyth which I'm actively working on today, if anybody's looking for something to do. Best &middot; Katefan0(scribble)/ poll 18:57, 22 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Good idea - there are still a lot of castles not covered. Castles in Wales shows a lot of red links. Incidentally the castles here are arranged by the old counties rather than by the present ones for some reason. Rhion 12:35, 23 March 2006 (UTC)


 * But also be aware that even that list is incomplete, some missing castles include Lampeter Castle (Norman - underneath the current University Building) and Castell Aberlleiniog near Beaumaris. I will add these to the list but there are almost certainly more. ( lists very many more.) Velela 12:52, 23 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I've started Dinefwr Castle - any contributions welcome. Rhion 14:33, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Looks great! I think all the castles could use more fleshing out as it regards their military strategic importance, with references to battles etc., but my own access to such information, given my geographic location, is rather limited. &middot; Katefan0(scribble)/ poll 16:02, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Thread on Wikimedia-UK
Please see:

http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikimediauk-l/

in particular

http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikimediauk-l/2006-March/000497.html

where David G. is looking for some translation help. Perhaps. Gordo 09:51, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

The Baaas
Hi all, I was wondering if one of you lot who has Macromedia Flash can extract a tidbit of information about The Baaas from its official homepage - my computer (uni owned) does not allow Flash player, and I assume there is some useful links on that page. Yeah, it sounds very low priority, but I'm trying to get another DYK. ;) Thanks in advance. --Dangherous 20:07, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
 * There's just some game as far as I can tell: you get to move around the house of these Baas and Meees and sounds happen and then your computer freezes. Or is that just me? Seriously, despite the obvious appeal of multicultural opera-singing sheep, I don't think it's worth linking to: isn't there some "don't link to pages which require plugins without good reason" policy? Telsa (talk) 22:47, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Languages, linguistics and references
Anyone like to have a look at List of English words of Welsh origin? So far it's, um, somewhat original research. (And lacking in the ones my dictionary lists, strangely.) Whilst I'm at it, have we any people familiar with Old Welsh and/or Brythonic knocking about? They are being claimed as the origin of the Lancashire placename Darwen and I feel somewhat at sea as an IP address adds a theory a day to the page. Telsa (talk) 22:47, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm working on this now. If anyone wants to suggest additional words (the list of candidates is rapidly shrinking), please feel free to add them, on the talk page if you can't provide a documented etymology, and I'll look them up when I get a chance.


 * I'm going to remove the bit about "lots of Welsh words come from English, but the linguists are dumping on us" - it may well be true, but if it's not documented it can't stand. Sources, people! Vashti 08:09, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Coo, how to tame an article! Great stuff, thanks. Telsa (talk) 09:18, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Who are the best sources for Welsh history?
Since I am sure everyone has nothing better to do that to answer my calls for help..:)

User:Wobble asked for cites for History of Wales and Welsh people. Whilst the former article looks great to me, I wrote a lot of the early version of the latter, and it certainly could do with some fresh eyes (or a complete rewrite, possibly). I mostly wrote it to get rid of the version that started with a claim that the Welsh were the closest relatives of the Basques or something along those lines, and I was expecting many more corrections and expansions than actually happened. I already know from extended arguments all over the talk page that the article should make it much much clearer that historians used to talk in terms of "the Celts" arriving and displacing any prior inhabitants completely; and that now they are much less sweeping, thinking in terms of a transfer of culture. So I have included something on that as well. But whilst I enjoy history, I have no background in it: so I don't know whether these are good sources, or whether there is a recognised authority I have completely omitted. So if anyone feels in the mood to vet references and point out better sources, do feel free to head over there! I have put my proposed quotes on the talk page for now. It all starts at Talk:Welsh people.

More generally, perhaps extending the "Web-based resources for Wales" section of the noticeboard to include non-web stuff, like "good authorities to know about", might be worth doing? Or starting a new "non-web-based" section. We could start it with the "further reading" listed in the History of Wales article, if everyone is happy with that?

Telsa (talk) 09:18, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * On a related note, I think part of the problem with articles like the History of Wales one is that there is just a list for Further reading at the bottom of the article. It is not possible to know which assertions in the article are derived from which sources. I am in favour of in line references, either Harvard referencing or footnoting (did I just make that word up?). My preference would be footnoting, but I'm happy to use either. One reason I think this is better is that if we just have a list of publications at the bottom of the article, then any unreferenced new edits that are not from these sources are made to appear as if they do indeed come from these sources. This means that the credibility of the article is bought into question. So I'd like a proper fact and reference check, and a little more neutrality, so if several POVs exist they should all be given some space, especially on things like cultural diffusion, which you have mentioned. Alun


 * I'm not entirely clear here - do you consider that every assertion given in the History of Wales article should have a footnote, or just assertions which could be controversial? For example I've never heard anyone dispute that Llywelyn the Last was killed in 1282, and you could source it from any one of a hundred history books, but is it really worth the bother? Looking at the other "History of ...." articles, History of Ireland has just three footnotes for potentially controversial points. History of Scotland, History of England, History of France}], [[History of Spain and History of Greece have no footnotes; after that I gave up checking. Is our history so much more controversial than theirs? Incidentally it would be helpful if you identified any specific points you feel are not neutral. Rhion 12:23, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * do you consider that every assertion given in the History of Wales article should have a footnote, well I don't, but the verifiability policy does: The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. This means that we only publish material that is verifiable with reference to reliable, published sources....The burden of evidence lies with the editors who have made an edit or wish an edit to remain. Editors should therefore provide references......Any edit lacking a source may be removed, but some editors may object if you remove material without giving people a chance to provide references. I should also point out that the policy also states The three policies are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines or by editors' consensus. The three policies being verifiability, no original research and neutral point of view. I am only involved with a few articles, I don't have the luxury of much spare time for working on wikipedia, but the articles I am interested in I would like to improve, I think verifying all the assertions in an article as a way of improving it. I don't find the argument that other articles are not well referenced, so why should this one be, as very persuasive. As for llywelyn, the fact that it has so many potential sources for referencing makes it very easy to put one in, surely? For example it took me about five seconds to google Llywelyn 1282 and come up with this, then a few minutes to type , so one can easily reference from web based sources as one goes along for verifying this sort of fact. The fact and reference check states that Wikipedia's Achilles heel is the perception that Wikipedia is not a "good" source of information, and that it is a less "definitive," or "authoritative" source than others. This perception likely comes from the idea that "normal" people could not competently create an encyclopedia......Imagine an article in which every fact is referenced with multiple sources! Wikipedia has the potential — hopefully the destiny — to be the most cross-referenced body of knowledge ever created, but to get there, it needs help. I want to try and make reliable articles, that's all, it's what I see wikipedia as being all about, a body of work that people will be able to use as a reference source when they are doing projects or whatever, and be able to cite as a good source of information. 212.54.27.63 Alun 17:19, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't say that www.bbc.co.uk was a reliable source for Welsh history - it has a great many errors, some of them pretty basic. What you would need for the Llywelyn 1282 reference is either a primary source, say Brut y Tywysogion, or a reliable secondary source such as Beverley Smith's book, which makes it a considerably bigger job. I'm not at all against putting in a reference for every fact (I am a librarian after all and I know that Wikipedia has a long way to go before it can be regarded as a reliable reference source) but there is no quick and easy way of doing it for a subject like Welsh history where all the really reliable sources are still only available in print form. Rhion 20:46, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it depends on what sort of fact one is checking, a generally accepted fact, like the year Llywelyn died is unlikely to be disputed, the more outlandish or controversial the claim, the stronger the source needs to be, this is what the verifiability policy has to say Sources should also be appropriate to the claims made: outlandish claims beg strong sources. I always assume the BBC is a prety reliable source for basic things. I think most people would consider the BBC to be relatively reliable, the reliable sources guideline describes reliable sources  as Publications with teams of fact-checkers, reporters, editors, lawyers, and managers — like the New York Times or The Times of London — are likely to be reliable, and are regarded as reputable sources for the purposes of Wikipedia, I would think the BBC would fit into this category. The policy also has this to say At the other end of the reliability scale lie personal websites, weblogs (blogs), bulletin boards, and Usenet posts, which are not acceptable as sources. I think when it comes to history then relatively uncontroversial things are easily verified, and I personaly don't see it as a problem to use web based sources for verifiability. When it comes to more controversial subjects, where there is no academic consensus, then the neutral point of view policy becomes important, and also the reliability of the sources is certainly very important. Alun 10:12, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Prince of Wales
Does anyone else think this last edit to Prince of Wales is a little, um, lacking in NPOVicity? It seems one-sided to me. Vashti 14:13, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Although written in a fairly informal style the new edit does seem to be factual. One might quibble at the last sentence but I don't think it needs many changes for it to be perfectly acceptable. Nigel45 22:01, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure about Owen Tudor being a cousin of Owain Glyndŵr - I'm not saying it's wrong but I'd like to see some confirmation. Rhion 08:26, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Translation help?
Bore da... I know this is a little cheeky but I am helping out (or trying to help...) a local band who want their EP to be named in English and Welsh... If possible could someone provide the translation or close equivilent Welsh term for the title "The Path Not Taken" ? Many thanks.... doktorb | words 01:47, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * "Y llwybr nas cymerwyd" would do I think.Rhion 08:19, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Many thanks Rhion, your help is much appriciated. Thank you doktorb | words 09:50, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Do me a favour?
I wonder if anyone could do me a favour? My wife and I will be in Cardiff this coming weekend—our work's jolly is to see Tosca—and we have some free time on Saturday morning (20 May)). I wonder if anyone can recommend somewhere nice to hang out between about 8am and 12noon…somewhere we can get a nice cup of tea would be ideal TIA HAND —Phil | Talk 08:09, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

List of people of Welsh descent
There is a proposal that List of people of Welsh descent should be merged into List of Welsh people. Have a look and see what you think. Rhion 07:59, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it would seem a sensible idea. Hogyn Lleol 12:50, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Telsa has identified the article as a copyright violation anyway, see Talk:List of people of Welsh descent.


 * I was rather tickled by the explanation on this list that it contained people who were qualified to play for Wales in conjunction with the inclusion of e.g. Boadicea. I wonder what sport she would represent Wales at? Answers on a postcard ... Rhion 13:06, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Welsh topics template
I've created a Welsh topics template, copied from the Scottish one yet again! It's been attached to Wales and History of Wales so far - have a look, add, amend etc. Rhion 18:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Added Welsh people to Template, and added template to Welsh people (does this sound like gibberish?). Nice work. Alun 11:57, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Template seems a good idea. I note that the list of lakes still points to the Scottish list!  I would change it myself but I can't find the page with the list of Welsh lakes!  Hogyn Lleol 15:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * It seems there isn't one, or at least I couldn't find one either. It's now a red link - maybe that will inspire somebody to create one. Rhion 16:41, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I have created one and populated it initially from the List of reservoirs and dams in the United Kingdom - so its mostly reservoirs at present - but more to come. Please feel free to add ! Velela 17:22, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Wales
We're having some trouble with an apparent troll at Wales today - if anyone feels like mucking in with the reversions they would be welcome. Thanks. :) Vashti 14:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I see the page has now been protected, with the current version the apparent troll's. Another glorious victory for trollhood! Rhion 16:52, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * He's just been blocked for 24 hours for vandalism, immediately after a particularly nasty personal attack at Talk:Wales. We'll get it sorted, the point of the protection is to let everyone talk it out.  Unfortunately your average trollvandal won't want to talk it out. Vashti 16:53, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The user concerned now has a message on his talk page User talk:Bazzajf asking for protection to be removed and promising not to put the POV tage on the section again. However there doesn't seem to be any actual request for unprotection made, so presumably nobody knows about this. Should we apply for unprotection on the basis of this message? Rhion 17:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure. We can put it back on again if there are problems, right? Vashti 17:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Shouldn't be a problem I would think - maybe leave it until tomorrow? Rhion 18:26, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * If nobody objects, I shall ask for the protection to be removed this evening. Rhion 11:39, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The page has now been unprotected, and I have removed the POV tag. Rhion 19:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Problems at Wales and Cardiff South and Penarth
Bazzajf is banging on the same old gong at Wales again, and someone at Cardiff South and Penarth is insisting on removing the Welsh translation "De Caerdydd a Phenarth", despite its common use by the Boundary Commission and the media. Help plz? Vashti 13:53, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Parliamentary constituencies only have a single name defined by law. There is no scope for a translation, which is why Anglesey was renamed to Ynys Môn. You will note that the Ynys Môn (UK Parliament constituency) page specifically states this. Owain (talk) 14:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It's probably best to discuss this on the article's talk page. Vashti 14:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Anglo-Welsh
I recently found the Anglo-Welsh article. I've never heard the term Anglo-Welsh applied to people, only to Anglo-Welsh literature. Has anybody else? Should this article be put up for deletion or is it a valid usage that I am unaware of? Rhion 19:24, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It's been there since January 2005, and it's still a stub with no references. 'Nuff said? Alun 19:33, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. I don't think it's in common usage. Deb 12:02, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with you all. To check, I spent about half an hour (I was bored :)) playing with Google and excluding "literature", "author" and so on from searches. There's the rugby cup, a narrow boating company, and a geological feature, but not people, particularly. Certainly not in a consistent form. The word isn't in my Shorter Oxford at all, strangely. Clearly I need a bigger dictionary :) Perhaps ask User:Calgacus where he came across the term, but I'd be inclined to redirect. Telsa (talk) 06:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Standard naming scheme
Please see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Regional notice boards. Zocky | picture popups 00:52, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Fork of Welsh self-government
User:Normalmouth has created a fork of the Welsh self-government article under the title Welsh nationalism, which was previously a redirect. As far as I can see the content of the two articles remains identical apart from the first sentence. I changed "Welsh nationalism" back to a redirect and pointed Normalmouth to Content forking; however he has immediately changed it back to a fork in clear violation of a basic Wikipedia policy. Assistance would be appreciated. I am leaving both articles in place for the moment so that other users can see what has been done.Rhion 05:51, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

What's this lang-cy template?
I have vaguely noticed a couple of people changing mark-up from  Welsh:gair  to  gair  (example) or to  gair  (example). It doesn't seem to happen very often. But obviously some people are incorporating -- or experimenting with? -- Template:Lang, which allows you to mark up sections of text so that people can tell their stylesheets how to portray text in specific languages.

I understand the potential use of the template: I use the lang attribute and stylesheets to get different languages to appear in different colours, fonts, or so on on my personal webpages, and have done for a couple of years. But I haven't seen much discussion or use of this template on Wikipedia apart from on Template talk:Lang. So.. well. Should we really be using it everywhere? When should we? When shouldn't we? And wouldn't it be simpler to get a bot to change them all? (Ugh, yet another round of bot-action on my watchlist.)

I am sure it must have been discussed elsewhere, but whether that would be the Village Pump, the Linguistics wikiproject, the Languages wikiproject or what, I don't know. I can't find any discussion on those pages, but the search system baffles me at times. Since it will certainly affect nearly every article to do with Wales, I brought it up here. Thoughts?

Telsa (talk) 07:50, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Categories for deletion:Welsh-speaking people - the saga continues
Further to the above (way, way above), this category's deletion is now under review, and there seems to be a consensus for it being re-listed for deletion. I know not everyone agrees with its existence, but I would ask you bear in mind the following when you decide whether to vote: Deb 17:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Minority languages are not the same as major languages in this context.
 * 2) The category had been in existence since April and was well-populated.
 * 3) Almost all the articles in the category specifically mention that the subject is/was a Welsh speaker. This suggests that being Welsh-speaking is as valid as a category as, for example, being born in 1955.
 * 4) The purpose of the category is not anything sinister or political. It is simply to enable users to find all articles about Welsh-speaking people easily.  I can think of many circumstances in which people might find this information useful.

Anyone who wants to vote on the above can now do so HERE

Help with translations
I'm currently working on a script intended to create short articles on political parties on a variety of wikipedias simultaneously. However, in order for the technique to work I need help with translations to various languages. If you know any of the languages listed at User:Soman/Lang-Help, then please help by filling in the blanks. For example I need help with Welsh. Thanks, --Soman 12:14, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

An excellent historic resource
The good folks at British History Online have just put A Topographical Dictionary of Wales (Samuel Lewis, 1849) online here. I haven't examined the Welsh one, but the Scottish one Lewis did was excellent - some villages were just a couple of lines of bare factual information, but some (especially parishes near large cities got decent articles. The level of coverage for large towns was good, and the cities went into great detail. This will probably be about the same level of detail, I suspect.

It's a hundred and sixty years old, of course, so not something to base an article on - but it looks excellent for fleshing out "history of..." sections in articles on towns and villages. Thought people might like to know about it. Shimgray | talk | 01:36, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Welsh industrial history
We seem to be very thin on the representation of Welsh industrial history both in Wales and History of Wales. Industrialisation seems to be begin with the development of the coal fields and the iron works at Gyfartha. In reality there were very significant pockets of industrialsaition both before, during and after this in many other parts of what is now rural Wales, Shipbuilding on the western coat such as the high level of industrialised ship-building in the River Mawddah estuary being one example. Much more significvant was metal extraction and working with the hugh mining complexes in the valleys of the River Ystwyth and River Rheidol with outposts in the headwaters of the River Severn and River Teifi not of course forgetting Parys mountain and the smelting activities in the lower Swansea valley (where we do have the start of an artcle). Then there was Slate and its depradations in north Wales. I only know of these things adventitiously but they do indicate that we somehow need to represent a much more balanced picture that the rather simplistic one of industrialised south and pastoral north and west. Mrs Trellis 08:46, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * True, but the Wales and History of Wales articles would get too long if you put in more than a brief mention there. What is really needed is either an Industrial history of Wales article or (for example) History of Wales in the 19th century, which would give space to cover all these industries. "Wales" and "History of Wales" could then refer to these articles. I have been thinking of doing a History of the North Wales slate industry, but can't decide whether that is the best title for it. Rhion 17:30, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and Shipbuilding at Porthmadog which is a particular interest of mine. Rhion 17:32, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I suppose "History of the slate industry" would be too wide. What about "History of the slate industry in Wales", which would avoid any problems with deciding whether something is in the north - or is that not likely to be an issue? Deb 18:51, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd be really interested in both your suggested titles, Rhion! Hogyn Lleol 20:32, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I have started a Metal mining in Wales article which would welcome additions. Mrs Trellis 13:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that we need an article on the Welsh slate industry. Does it make sense to restrict this to just the history of the industry? There is still some active industry, notably at Penrhyn and Blaenau Ffestiniog. How about calling it "Slate industry in Wales" or similar? I started a related category a while ago called Category:Slate quarries which doesn't have much in it (and its not all Welsh) but should probably be linked. In fact perhaps the category is misnamed and should be Category:Slate industry? Thoughts? Gwernol 17:17, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * In fact there's already a nascent article on the slate industry at Slate mine. Its currently mainly about the Welsh slate industry, and is rather misnamed. How about renaming "Slate mine" to "Slate industry" and creating a "Slate industry in Wales" article that is a sub-article of "Slate Industry"? There could also be articles on "Slate industry in America", "Slate industry in England" etc. Gwernol 17:55, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I've made a start on an article on the Welsh slate industry in my sandbox (and found out some information about my great-grandfather in the process). I'll put it out in a day or two. So far, I have followed Deb's suggestion and called it "History of the slate industry in Wales", since sadly it is mainly historical despite the small scale activity at Penrhyn. Are they still working at the Oakley in Blaenau? I think Category:Slate industry would be better for the category. Rhion 17:54, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The beginnings of the article is at User:Rhion/History of the slate industry in Wales at the moment. Rhion 18:03, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Ooh, great stuff, Rhion. I agree with.. well, practically everyone seems to be in agreement that there is loads that could be done, so I agree with everyone. I did start a History of Swansea article which is really quite awfully-written now that I read it again, but I'll see if there is anything that can be done to/with it. (Actually, as well as general "putting into context", what that one lacks is the non-industrial side. The area was agricultural for a long time, and even at the height of the copper industry there were local farmers complaining about the effect of the copper-smoke on their animals.) Mrs Trellis, I think I can dig out some references for your Metal mining in Wales article. I'll see whether they are where I think they are. Telsa (talk) 16:14, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe Oakley is still worked sporadically. There is also some activity at Aberllefenni though mining there has ceased and its just the mill working Chinese slate stocks now. There is also some recovery of slate waste at Glanafron and talk of a major operation to reuse some of the tipped material at Blaenau. So there is still a little of the industry left. I've already changed the category name: Slate Industry is definitely the better term. What do you think of repurposing the current Slate mine article to Slate industry? Gwernol 16:47, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I have now put the article out as Slate industry in Wales. It still needs work, but I think it could be put forward as a Featured Article candidate in a while. I think it would be a good idea to have a Slate industry article, and the current Slate mine article would give a good basis. I suppose it would be possible to also have a short "Slate mine" article, concentrating specifically on mines as opposed to quarries, differences in methods of working etc. Rhion 13:40, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Great work, Rhion. You've already improved our coverage of the Welsh slate industry by an order of magnitude or two. I'm going to rename Slate mine to Slate Industry. My library is currently in storage, but I should have access to most of it later this week, so I can hopefully contribute directly to this effort. Best, Gwernol 14:04, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * After doing a bit more work on it, I have put Slate industry in Wales forward as a Featured Article candidate. It should really have gone to Peer Review first, but it doesn't fall under any of the projects and the main Peer Review is pretty moribund at the moment - it could well sit there for three weeks without comments. I have time to deal with any objections or suggestions at the moment, but probably won't in three weeks' time. Any comments here please. Rhion 13:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Opinions sought on naming conventions
This is a request for your opinion on place names (before I post RfC)

I have discussed this problem with an admin and neither of us were able to find guidance on: Naming conventions (places) or Naming conventions (subnational entities)

The problem arises following attempts by a Wikipedia user to seek out references to "England", "Scotland" and "Wales" and replace them with "United Kingdom".

One example of this can be seen at Atlantic Ocean where User:Owain recently made changes including changing text:

from "Aberdeen, Scotland" to "Aberdeen, United Kingdom"; from "Liverpool, England" to "Liverpool, United Kingdom"; and from "Newport, Wales" to "Newport, United Kingdom".

I came across this change while using VP and had made no contribution to this particular article myself but reverted on the grounds that there was no problem with the original text and that the changes reflected a minority POV, and certainly did not conform to "common usage". My revert was immediately reverted by User:Owain so I issued a warning to him using VP, which he chose to delete from his home page. I therefore requested that VP admins protected the disputed page.

I believe that:
 * the edit was non-sensical, totally unnecessary and politically-motivated.
 * the edit made the article imprecise in not giving sufficient detail to pinpoint a place by omitting the obvious (i.e. the country), and gave less information than the original edit
 * to deliberately ignore the country is to disrespect the people, culture and traditions of those nations
 * there have been a large number of edits to this page by many other Wikepedians, all of whom saw no problem with the identification of the country

User:Owain recently made changes the article on Lisvane by changing the text:

from "For the village in Conwy, see Llysfaen" to "For the village in north Wales, see Llysfaen"

as before leaving out the obvious and replacing it with that ill-defined region of "north Wales"!

Again I had made no contributions to this article but believed the edit presented a biased POV, expressed by a small number of users involved with County Watch and Association of British Counties who attempt to wipe out, or depreciate, any references to the counties of England, Wales and Scotland which were formed following local government reorganisation in 1974 and again in 1996.

Finally User:Owain recently made several changes to the article on Aberdyfi by changing the name of the town to the anglicised version of "Aberdovey" throughout. Again I must point out that I had made no previous contributions to this article. Despite being presented with several 'reference' articles, all using the spelling "Aberdyfi", he continued to revert to the out-of-date spelling, thus flaunting the "common usage" policy. The comment he makes on his talk page "I attach absolutely no authority to the 'National Assembly'" (the elected parliament of Wales) reveals his political motives.

I believe that what we are witnessing is an attempt a small group of people to use Wikepedia to put forward a heavily biased, right-wing, "British Nationalist" agenda, views which are rejected by the vast majority of the population as being out-of-date. I am informed by other Wikipedians that these antics have been going on since before I began contributing to Wikipedia.

If Wikepedia is to be accepted as a serious source of information then this cannot be allowed to continue and must be stopped at the highest level. Should an investigative journalist attempt to compare Wikipedia to other conventional encyclopaedias I believe that we would be totally discredited on the grounds of neutrality.

I am not a member of any political party and have no political axe to grind, in fact I treat all politicians with equal contempt!

Can we please have some views on the convention to be used when referring to Britsih place names?

-- Maelor 15:37, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe that the test to be applied here is what serves the interests of an unbiased encyclopaedia best rather than what any one editor regards as his or her personal crusade. I would therfore strongly prefer a convention thatprovides the right level of geographic distinction to give maximum information to the reader. In the case cited I would opt strongly for Aberdeen, Scotland (because that tells us more precisely where Aberdeen is) and similalrly Llysfaen, Conwy. For the record I would also very strongly opt for Aberdyfi for the simple reason that is the name of the village in question. So I guess that you have my support. Mrs Trellis 16:01, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Likewise from me. "Newport, United Kingdom" is so vague as to be useless. This is an encyclopædia, and anyone who gets confused by terms like "Scotland" and "Wales" instead of "United Kingdom" can look them up and find out the difference. --Stemonitis 16:08, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Naturally you mean the one in Pembrokeshire. Agathoclea 16:18, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Apologies for the second comment - but Agathoclea's comment hits the nail on the head. How useful would Newport, United Kingdom be ?! Even Newport, South Wales wouldn't make the grade.Mrs Trellis 16:34, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Ditto. I agree with your comments, Maelor.  Any politics aside, "Wales", "Scotland", etc. are far more informative than just "UK".  However, in the case of Llysfaen I'd prefer to see "Conwy, North Wales".  To those who don't know where Conwy is, that is clearly usefully informative.   Hogyn Lleol 16:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * In principle, I agree with the points made above. There have been two recent major controversies of which I'm aware, both of which I think are relevant.  One was the furore over what to call the Newport article.  Personally, I would have favoured a proper disambiguation page rather than the assumption that the Newport in Monmouthshire is the one most users are most likely to be looking for.  T seemed to be in the minority on this.  The other is the current debate on the use of Gaelic names for Kings of Scotland, in clear defiance of the Naming conventions.  We ought to remember that this is the English wikipedia, and the conventions that apply are meant to make it easier to use by English speakers, not just in England or even the UK, but worldwide.  We ought also to avoid slipping into the same tendency towards parochialism that the English generally show.  I would like anyone who feels passionate about their nationality and language to take a trip over to the Welsh-language wikipedia, which is still struggling to build up a basic stock of articles and can always do with more help. Deb 16:37, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It seems to me that it is normal practice to use British English on pages related to the UK and American English on pages related to America. In this regard it is normal practice for Americans to name places thus City, State as in Los Angeles, California or New York, New York, often they impose this convention on places in Europe, like Paris, France or London, England and it just sounds daft to me, I don't think it is normal in British English to do this. I would neither use Aberdeen, Scotland nor Aberdeen, United Kingdom, rather I would use Aberdeen is a city in Scotland in the United Kingdom, this way both Scotland and the UK are mentioned. I don't know if the reason for the change from Aberdeen, Scotland to Aberdeen, United Kingdom is due nationalistic reasons or simply due to pedantry, but I don't like the inference that one way is based on a form of nationalism and the other isn't, both stlyes have nationalistic overtones, is any form of nationalism acceptable? Both are in a literal sense correct and both display a stylistic POV. Alun 17:13, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I am with Mrs Trellis and Hogyn Lleol here. We need the right level of detail, and I think that we need at least Wales and very often where in Wales included. When it gets to "where in Wales", I think that sometimes the valley is much more important than the county (whatever sort of county), but that is probably a separate issue. (Ie, "in the Dysynni valley, north Wales", or "in the Rhondda valley of south Wales".) Telsa (talk) 16:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

S4C programmes
Over on the S4C page, there is an ever-expanding list of "notable S4C programmes", all of which are acquiring their own pages. Many of these pages are going to need some clean up. Before it gets out of hand, perhaps we could come to some degree of consensus about what makes a programme notable on S4C? I have stuck some suggestions on Talk:S4C. Some more opinions (even if it is "Don't be stingy, of course S4C Closedown Screen should have its own page") would be great. Telsa (talk) 16:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that there need to be some criteria for deciding what a notable S4C programme is. I'd add something about longevity to the list as well - but I'd also keep the Closedown Screen, as it is unique for being the only one left on a terrestrial channel.  I'm a little worried about the list of children's programmes that was added today, though - shouldn't they be linked to by their Welsh names on the S4C page? ("Fireman Sam" instead of "Sam Tân", for instance). Vashti 17:33, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Audio
I had a go at uploading audio files for pronunciation of Cardiff and Caerdydd and have included them in the Cardiff article. I am not under the impression that these are any good, it's just me speaking into the microphone of my skype headset. I was inspired by the Jerusalem article. Is it worth including this medium in the articles? Should we try to include more audio (especially Welsh language pronunciation) in Welsh related articles? What's the consensus? Alun 17:27, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

DYK
The DYK section featured on the main page is always looking for interesting new and recently expanded stubs from different parts of the world. Please make a suggestion.--Peta 02:13, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Wales Labour Party
I have created an article on the Wales Labour Party. Comments and suggested improvements welcome. Normalmouth 20:32, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * A nice suitable-length article there. Do the other parties with Welsh variant names have separate articles? Sorry the comment is a bit late! :p Marbles 17:57, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. No, neither the Welsh Conservatives nor the Welsh Liberal Democrats have an article. Both should. Normalmouth 20:21, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Goodbye
I have decided to leave Wikipedia - I'm losing patience with the assorted vandals and POV-pushers on here. Basically it's just not worth the aggravation any more. Rhion 09:05, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Back momentarily to request that my user page be deleted and to thank everybody who left a message on my Talk Page. It's good to know that my work was appreciated. There is in fact another reason why I'm leaving, not just the vandals etc - I work in a fairly senior position in local government and I have heard of at least two people recently who have been forced to resign as a result of material they posted on the internet in their own time. It seems the spirit of the late Senator McCarthy has taken up residence in Wales, and while I have always done my best to avoid putting my own POV into articles, I'm aware that I have made certain comments on discussion pages which could be interpreted as being critical of the party currently in power. I'm concerned that there is material on here which would enable me to be identified - Wales is a small country after all. I may return in a few months, but it will be under a new user name and with no possible clues to my identity. Rhion 08:52, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Llanfair PG move request
It has been proposed that Llanfair PG be moved to Llanfairpwllgwyngyll or Llanfair Pwllgwyngyll. Please share your opinion at Talk:Llanfair PG. --Blisco 17:40, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Pembrokeshire and Welsh
The article "Little England beyond Wales" is a bit one sided, and I have added my own comments on the talk page of it. I would be grateful if some clued up Welsh language experts would look at this and the article on the Landsker Line.

Diolch yn fawr. --MacRusgail 20:49, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Cymru X
There's a proposal to merge this with Plaid Cymru. People may be interested in giving a view. Deb 17:53, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * If it was exanded, I'd oppose the merge. However as it stands it would be better to bulk up the Plaid Cymru article a bit. Marbles 18:17, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

A few Q's from a new member
Hi, this is my first joint venture at wikipedia of any kind. So I have kicked off, amongst other things, by writing most of Cardiff Bay. I have listed most of the attractions and notable buildings in the Bay, new and old, and added brief descriptions and lots of links. Many of them do not have wikipedia articles. Would it be ok to add these buildings to the main 'to do' list on the noticeboard? ie. can I add anything to that list, or is there a formal process for approving additions to it? Bards 14:38, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Dispute regarding treaties relevant to the formation of the United Kingdom
There is currently a dispute going on at the Template talk:UKFormation which regard the inclusion of treaties specific to England within the template which aims to display the treaties leading to the formation of the United Kingdom i.e. the Union of Parliaments and Union of Crowns before that. Comment upon the dispute is needed so that a consensus may be reached. siarach 04:14, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Welsh mythology
Is Welsh mythology the same as Breton mythology. Well, my references say that is most certainly is not. I see a user has added Breton mythology to the Welsh section on the Template:Celtic mythology, see this edit here. It will just muddy the subject of the mythologies, and is not a step forward for WP. If you believe that this edit is erroneous, then please add your view to Template:Celtic mythology talk page. Manopingo 12:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Plaid Cymru
There's been another edit war taking place recently on the Plaid Cymru article. It would be great if a few people could take a look at it and help achieve compromise wording before those involved get themselves into further trouble. Deb 21:53, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Use of "Anglo" (sic) to designate the United Kingdom
Please see: --Mais oui! 07:02, 20 April 2007 (UTC) --Mais oui! 07:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * CFD discussion

Photos
Is there a place to request photos from Wikipedians in Wales? The need isn't just for Wales-based articles on the English Wikipedia; very often the Welsh Wikipedia will have an article about something or other, and have to use a picture illustrating it of something in Germany or Japan or even England. Marnanel 03:23, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Llareggub
I give notice that the Llareggub article needs to be removed and integrated with Under Milk Wood, which already duplicates much of the content. And what nonsense to provide a specific map reference for a fictitious place! Do us a favour! --Aeronian 03:55, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Manual of Style (United Kingdom-related articles)
A guideline is being drafted at this page which would prescribe that all UK nationals be described as British, rather than English, Welsh, Scottish or N. Irish. Unfortunately the proposer appears to have overlooked notifying the UK based projects. Leithp 07:56, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Cantref Gwaelod/Cantre'r Gwaelod
Months ago, Cantre'r Gwaelod was moved to Cantref Gwaelod. The move was messily done, complete with cut and pastes. Before I ask an admin to undo it, can someone confirm my belief that Cantref Gwaelod is simply wrong, and there is no "ah, but in English, it might be okay" about it? Telsa (talk) 11:42, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I much prefer "Cantre'r Gwaelod". Without doubt "Cantref Gwaelod" is a derivation, and not as correct, even though this sort of thing is seen in many place/house names, etc.  (It's possible that Cantre'r Gwaelod" is itself a corruption of "Cantref AR y Gwaelod", but that's not at issue.)  Having Googled both, and looked at some of the references (more hits with "Cantre'r Gwaelod" by the way, and some of the "Cantref Gwaelod" will be Wikipedia mirrors anyway) it all seems to agree.
 * The Wiki entry currently starts "Cantref Gwaelod (more commonly: Cantre'r Gwaelod .....)". Well, if it's more commonly this, (let alone correctly & originally), then we really should have "Cantre'r Gwaelod" as the main page, with the other redirecting to it, rather than vice-versa.
 * For what it's worth, not surprisingly all Welsh references also use "Cantre'r Gwaelod".
 * And no, I agree with you in that I don't think it's OK to say it might be OK in English - because we've got Welsh words & structure here. As another example, you can say "The Ffestiniog Railway" but it just isn't right to say "THE Rheilffordd Ffestiniog" - in any language.  No offence intended to anyone, but non-Welsh speakers will have to trust us on this one.  Hogyn Lleol 16:51, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with Hogyn Lleol. Even in English-language works of reference on Wales I've never seen "Cantref Gwaelod" before. It's a Welsh name and the ONLY correct form, gramatically and historically, is Cantre'r Gwaelod. I suspect the origin of the erroneous form is a result of people with no knowledge of Welsh language and culture thinking they know better than the "natives" what the name should be (nothing new there!). I hope someone can undo the change as soon as possible. Enaidmawr 20:59, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Even as a non-Welsh speaker, that's a daft one! Clearly a simplification in English of the original Welsh, where the Welsh is the used term in modern books. I agree with Enaidmawr conclusion re the motives of the move - its something we as a group have to be "understanding" but vigilant of. Rgds, - Trident13 08:21, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Great, thanks. It's on WP:RM now. Telsa (talk) 10:38, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Done. :) I'll take it off WP:RM. -- Arwel (talk) 12:22, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Translating mottos
Whilst I'm noticing these things, here's another. Over on Swansea University, the motto Gweddw crefft heb ei dawn is translated as "Technical skill is bereft without culture". I don't know whether dawn is better translated as ability, talent, innate ability, or what, but it needs fixing. I have put a note on Talk:Swansea University. Telsa (talk) 10:49, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * A quick look at a number of University sites shows that they themselves translate it as the above. Therefore, in this instance, I guess that any mis-translation is theirs, not Wikipedias's. Hogyn Lleol 16:45, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Y Frô Gymraeg
Hmm, I seem to be monopolising this talk page. Oh well. Anyway, only three or four pages link to it, but we have an article Y Frô Gymraeg. If it's to stay around, it needs help. I don't know where to start. If I remove every sentence which is OR or wildly point-of-view, there will not be much left. Telsa (talk) 06:23, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Tnx for pointing out the article. Firstly, bro/fro doesn't take a circumflex accent, so I'v moved the page accordingly. Also I shifted the map and tried a quick tidy up. Cut out some ludicrous POV as well (the bit telling people, or rather "you", not to be frightened by the fact that Welsh appears first on road signs as "the locals are friendly" etc has to be a classic!). However, as you say, if I were to really get the scissors out there wouldn't be much left! Needs another look over, if somebody has the time time. Oh, added some categories as well, a bit general but better than nothing (literally). Enaidmawr 19:51, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Did a bit more work on it myself. (To be honest, I'd never heard the term before.) Deb 11:46, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Suspected hoax to keep an eye on
Over the last few days the following articles have appeared: They are clearly hoaxes. They came to my notice after a version of the Edmwnd Harri Puw article appeared on cy.wikipedia. Neither the author or his supposed works are known to me. Google has no mention of him or his books or Bro Rhydderch. The British Library and National Library of Wales bibliographical databases drew a blank as well. Take a look at the relevant material added to Llanddewi Rhydderch (genuine village) : following a lot of nonsense "folklore" about trolls, it is said to be twinned with Dinan, Britttany, but of course is not mentioned on the wikipedia articles on Dinan (French and English). To cap it all it is said that Llanddewi's motto is, in Esperanto (what else?), thus Tiu estis fikci (translation : 'This is fiction'!). The contributor has logged on with two different user names in the last few days as well as a number of anon edits, all of them concerned with Mr Puw and spreading his fame (he got added to famous Welsh people as a philosopher). Just got back here after tagging the articles as hoaxes and undoing the other edits only to find that User:EdPuw has turned up and reverted them all. This nonsense is not categorised yet but if we're not careful could end up in the relevant Welsh categories. Please take a look at these articles and keep an eye on them. The three main articles (above) hav just been retagged as hoaxes by me and also proposed for deletion : I suspect EdPuw or another of his atavars may be back to undo this (he/she hasn't offered any evidence to back his claims, other than that he/she is apparently a distant ancestor of the illustrious gentleman). Diolch yn fawr, Enaidmawr 20:40, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Edmwnd Harri Puw
 * Bro Rhydderch
 * The Ancient Traditions, Myths and Tales of Bro Rhydderch, Monmouthshire
 * Update: "Bro Rhydderch" deleted here about an hour ago. Corresponding article and "Edmwnd Harri Puw" on cy. have also been deleted. Enaidmawr 21:52, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Please comment here. Deb 21:15, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Which century are we in?
Has anyone noticed that the List of castles in Wales has been altered so that they are now listed by the old shire counties rather than the present ones? The change was made by User:Owain (details [|see here]). This will come as no surprise to some of us as User:Owain has a proven agenda of removing references to modern counties (gets rid of awkward Welsh names like Ceredigion), insisting on obsolete anglicised spellings, etc. (some examples can be found above at 'Opinions sought on naming conventions'). There is perhaps a case for saying someone was born in Waunfawr, Caernarfonshire, in 1880, rather than Gwynedd (although the modern county should be added), but that sort of argument doesn't hold here as most of the castles on the list were erected prior to the creation of the shire system and the modern counties are not mentioned at all. What is more, those shires no longer exist. So where's the logic? The Scottish list uses the modern counties (haven't checked the English list). Why should we be in an irrelevant time warp? Maybe I should have brought this up on the article discussion page but there is a wider issue involved. The other day I came across the new category 'Buildings and structures in Wales by county' (I think that's the wording). Once again User:Owain has been busy populating it with the old counties. I really think we should adopt a policy on this. This is Wales 2007 not Wales 1907. Any suggestions / comments? Enaidmawr 20:46, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmm, I'd forgotten that I in fact created Category:Buildings and structures in Wales by county! I put in a few of the existing county categories, rather than creating the whole structure from scratch, if memory serves me right.  So as a result Category:Buildings and structures in Gwynedd was on my watchlist, and I saw one day that it had been blanked.  I raised the issue with Owain here but I'm sorry not to have followed it through when he didn't reply.  It was then speedily deleted as empty.  I didn't know that this was a repeat of previous behaviour, or I might have done something earlier.
 * My view is that it makes no sense to have categories that say (in effect) "this building is in Fooshire" when Fooshire no longer exists. It makes even less sense when a building post-dates the abolition of Fooshire but is included in the Fooshire category anyway.  Nor do I see the need for a structure that says "this building was built at a time when it was in a place called Fooshire" alongside a category structure that says "this building is in Newshire".  But one way or the other, I'd be in favour of developing an editing guideline by consensus so that we don't get into a revert war on such topics and everyone knows what the preferred option is.  My preferred option for such categories is the current county, not the old name, but I suppose there may be some occasions when old counties are appropriate if people can think of examples.
 * I'll pop over to WP:WALES and leave a message there; is there anywhere else that it would be useful to let know about this discussion? BencherliteTalk 22:45, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * What is the "current county"? There are many concurrent areas that can be called "counties". If you mean administrative areas then they are highly inappropriate - names like Caerphilly and Conwy are totally ambiguous. Encyclopædia Britannica, for example, uses the historic counties throughout. Owain (talk) 10:35, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I can understand the issue. A case in point is Neath Port Talbot - which has in it (as you might expect) Neath and Port Talbot.  And you'll also find that the Post Office still recognises West Glamorgan. Not that this is an answer... Deb 11:42, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

In English Wikipedia there is a convention that the term "the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize" should be used. It is the requirements of the user that rule, and not the tastes (ancient or modern) of editors. The case of Neath Port Talbot is particularly appropriate: it's a purely administrative entity that was created by the stroke of a bureaucratic pen a few years ago, and will undoubtedly meet its end by a similar process in a very few years' time. Glamorgan, on the other hand, will be Glamorgan until hell freezes over. . . .LinguisticDemographer 20:25, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Portal:Ireland
Portal:Ireland is up for featured portal candidacy. All views welcome! --sony-youth pléigh 11:33, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Cardiff Film Festival
I believe in the "To Do List" Cardiff International Film Festival Wales is actually the same article as Cardiff Film Festival ??? Seth Whales 20:32, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Court photographs
Does anyone have, or can anyone pop out and take, photographs of current or former county courts in Wales to add to List of county courts in England and Wales or List of former county courts in Wales? I've got Caernarfon, Pontypridd, Cardiff and Carmarthen (Guildhall) for the first and Monmouth (Market Hall) for the second, but photos of others would be good. Thanks, BencherliteTalk 08:38, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Addition of Welsh names to English articles
I've spent a day or two in discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements on what I wrongly thought was a modest proposal that, where Welsh names exist for places in England, particularly those close to the border, they should be mentioned in the relevant article. For example, the article on Ross-on-Wye mentions the Welsh name, but Chester (Caer) doesn't. This originally arose in relation to Wirral, where I thought it would be useful and interesting to refer to the (etymologically unrelated) Welsh name of Cilgwri. It's also relevant in relation to road signs, now that signs to previously unknown (to some) destinations like Llundain and Bryste have appeared on motorways. My proposal has, shall we say, been misinterpreted and over-interpreted by some fellow editors, to a rather tedious extent, and others might like to comment in the debate. I shall now step back! Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:55, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Culturenut
Hi all. I see that http://www.gtj.org.uk/ is mentioned on the Project page as a resource, but we ran into a couple of accounts whose edits are only link additions to this site, while there have lately been hardly any users who used the site in a regular way. There is a summary here: WikiProject Spam/LinkReports/gtj.org.uk and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spam. Some edits have been reverted (they would be in violation of Spam, and there may be a conflict of interest involved as well, and I am not sure how this is in light of WP:NOT and WP:EL). It would be great if some people here could try and contact (one of) the accounts to see if they can help us improve the articles with some content, and are willing to upload the images. Hope to hear more. --Dirk Beetstra T C 16:42, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Help for Translation
I've been looking around at the Hen Ogledd and other related pages, and I've also checked out the Welsh versions, but I really have no experience so mostly what I could see is that several of them have a lot more information than the English language version. So I'm looking for someone who could translate these and add any extra information to those pages, if none of you are too busy. It would be a great help.---G.T.N. (talk) 15:38, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

An Invitation from the Philippine Wikipedia Community
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Nino Gonzales (talk • contribs) 09:45, 19 May 2008‎ (UTC)

Welsh manual of style?
I don't see anything in Category:Wikipedia naming conventions or Category:Wikipedia style guidelines concerning Welsh words or placenames; should there be? You can check those category to see the kinds of guidance people like to give. - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 23:35, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I think there should be, but you will get opposition from the Land of Hopeless Glory unionist brigade who will oppose all things Welsh!!! -- Maelor 10:03, 3 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Be bold. Create a draft guideline, list it here for comments, and then at the village pump for acceptance. — Pek, on behalf of Tivedshambo (talk) 10:23, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with Pek. Welsh placenames were discussed here, following which I created this. Happy to help further. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:19, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

It would be very interesting to see what you come up with - I don't envy you the task, though. Deb (talk) 11:46, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

National Library of Wales Images
Hi, I'm part of a small team who are hoping to explore sharing some of the digitial content owned by the National Library of Wales over August. One of the ways we'll be doing this is by sharing some of our digitised images with relevant Wikipedia (& Wicipedia) articles. We'd really apreciate any feedback you have so feel free to drop by our User page to find out more about the project or leave a comment on the Talk page. Thanks! National Library of Wales (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 08:54, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikimania 2010 Oxford bid
This is a general call for any wikimedians in the UK who would be interested in getting involved with and extremely active venture to finally bring Wikimania to the UK. To join the team simply sign your name here. It would be good to join the Wikimedia UK mailing list, view the mailing list archives or to join the irc channel at irc:wikimania-oxford. Information on how to access IRC can be found here. We really are pulling out all the stops this year and any help we could get would be most appreciated. All the information about the Oxford bid can be found at meta wiki here. I and the others in the team look forward to working with you. Sedd&sigma;n talk Editor Review 23:16, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

WP:British Isles Terminology task force
Added here. --Matt Lewis (talk) 18:44, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone have access to Transactions of the Honourable Society of Cymmrodorion?
I'm trying to improve coverage of Jesus College, Oxford - the "Welsh college" - and a couple of potentially interesting articles about its history are in this series, which I don't have ready access to. If someone can get hold of them and would be willing to scan some pages for me, please drop me a line. Thanks, BencherliteTalk 08:59, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Bencherlite, thought you might like to know that some earlier editions are available online at www.archive.org. Rather hefty pdf files though. I haven't looked through the archive properly yet - the categories aren't too helpful but there's a search tool - but there may well be other useful sources there as well. Enaidmawr (talk) 00:34, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Welsh people
For information - there is an animated discussion on what is meant by the term "Welsh people" taking place here. Consensus seems unlikely but it raises some interesting points. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:45, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

RFC on Humorous and Satirical Essays
In his Wikipedia article, the 'essays' of AA Gill (the Sunday Times' restaurant reviewer and television critic) are described as being 'known for their humour and satirical content'. In one of the more well known of those humorous and satirical essays in the Sunday Times he described the Welsh as: "loquacious, dissemblers, immoral liars, stunted, bigoted, dark, ugly, pugnacious little trolls." See this No reference is made to this statement in the article and all attempts to include it have been reverted, referring editors to the talk page. I have commented on the talk page, as requested, but here has been no response. You may have a view on this too. If so, please comment on AA Gill:Talk. Yours, Daicaregos (talk) 11:08, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Unilateral move of Llŷn peninsula to Lleyn Peninsula
This was a unilateral move with no prior consultation of an important article. Because of redirects it needs an admin to restore it. If anyone has an opinion about this they might like to have their say on the discussion page. Enaidmawr (talk) 00:29, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Greetings Fellow South Britons!
Sorry about that, but it's one way to gain people's attention! I presume that a fair proportion of those contributing to this talk page will be Welsh. According to an article recently created, we live in South Britain (not southern Britain) and we "may correctly be termed South Britons". May we, indeed? I'm not sure which planet the contributor lives on but it certainly does not include modern Wales, or England. If anybody has views on this misleading article (I've changed the wording of the intro, although I suspect it will be reverted again, so you may need to check the History for the original text), which in my humble opinion reflects the POV of a tiny minority - if indeed that minority even exists in sufficient numbers even to be called that - perhaps they might like to have a look at it and its talk page? Enaidmawr (talk) 00:27, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Just mischief making I think. I've proposed it be merged into England and Wales, so that a passing reference can be made there if at all.  In the meantime an eye needs to be kept on the page's content so that it doesn't sow confusion.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:35, 27 November 2008 (UTC)