Wikipedia talk:WikiProject A Song of Ice and Fire/Archive 2

proposing merge of all ASOIAF location articles
In case somebody is still busy with the project, I have proposed a mass merge of all location articles remaining. Yoenit (talk) 12:32, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The discussion is here.&mdash; TAnthonyTalk 00:14, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Blind Guardian songs about the novels
Hi everybody, The power metal band Blind Guardian have written a couple of songs about the novels. I think that it would be nice to include them in the article. I had written a new section about it, but it was deleted claiming it was not "a part of the novels". What do you think? Should we at least add a sentence about this? I think it is definitely worth it.

You can see more details about the songs here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_the_Edge_of_Time#Song_Information The songs are "War of the Thrones" and "A Voice in the Dark".

Cheers, Trelos physikos (talk) 17:22, 1 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I commented on this here, thanks.&mdash; TAnthonyTalk 22:19, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Pronunciation of character names
HBO has released a pronunciation guide for the characters; I would like to contribute an IPA transcription of said list and publish that on the character list page (of course marked as "pronunciation according to HBO"). DonSqueak (talk) 01:51, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

A new assessment
Can have another look at the articles and discuss the changes in the last two years?

I must say that I am appalled by articles like Major houses in A Song of Ice and Fire, ]Characters in A Song of Ice and Fire] and [[World of A Song of Ice and Fire. It is just one long list without any sensible structure or references. Compare this to the old House Targaryen article. I though it was a good article. It had a good structure and was easy to read. Maybe it had a bit too much detail (the historical Targaryen section was too long) but is the merge really an improvement? Also I noticed that there are less contributions. People liked to contribute to the old articles though they were sometime a bit too much Crufty. There must be a way between Fancruft and merging-all-things-in-one-article! Looking for your suggestions! Scafloc (talk) 21:11, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Game of Thrones (season 1)
I am continuing my efforts to get the first season of the TV show to a good topic. 7 of 10 articles are now GA, and I'll be continuing to work on this in the run up to S2's premiere. Any help is welcome... Jclemens (talk) 23:37, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi, I'm a big fan of the series (read the novels and saw season 1 of the HBO show) and I just joined the project. I'm hoping to help out with stuff just like that and clean a few things up a bit. Cheers, Magister Scienta talk 20:28, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Working on A Song of Ice and Fire
Hi. After a long semi-wikibreak, it's itching me to develop a fiction article to GA status again. I am crazy about ASOIAF at the moment, so I've chosen the A Song of Ice and Fire article for a major expansion and rewrite. I have already started collecting sources in my userspace (User:Sgeureka/ASOIAF) and work on a new article structure. I'll continue working on the article offline for the next two weeks (I'll be on vacation) and start inserting my work into the real wiki article after that. Just FYI to prevent two people working on the same article without knowing it. :-) – sgeureka t•c 20:17, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Wow! That's sounds amazing. I'm new to the project (do you like the tabs and border?) and would love to help out with that. Magister Scienta talk 20:51, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Amidst everything else I'm working on, about all I can commit to doing is racing you to get GoT S1 to GT before you do. :-) Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 23:13, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
 * How do you guys feel about the project's new layout and style? Magister Scienta talk 00:20, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
 * It looks fine to me, but I'm not too big into design and decoration--using infoboxes and making userboxen is about as complicated as I get. Jclemens (talk) 01:47, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Good to hear. Magister Scienta talk 02:23, 22 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I have begun synchronizing my userspace (User:Sgeureka/ASOIAF) with A Song of Ice and Fire by expanding the Publication history section. The other sections will follow one by one over the next 1-4 weeks (I have the information ready, I just haven't prose-ified it sufficiently). I didn't want to have trouble later on with synchronizing the references, so have dumped them all into the References section, outcommenting those not needed at the moment. So, what's left to do for now? Copyediting for prose and redundance, moving not-so-relevant info into the subarticles, and sourcing the few facts (mostly publication dates) for which I couldn't find good sources quickly. If someone wants to help with those points, be my guests, but it is in no way required. I'll do all of this eventually, but I might prefer working in userspace for a while, I don't know. – sgeureka t•c 13:57, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Moving fancruft information
I can understand why for wikipedia a lot of information is considered fancruft. But for a wiki dedicated for the books it is perfect. So if there are people who would like to contribute or move to information great. And also we have something to offer to wikipedia:sources. A growing number of our articles are sourced. So for the wikipedians feel free to use the sources of our wiki. Scafloc (talk) 12:13, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * It surely have improved a lot in terms of content, quality and references, with few quality ASOIAF "wikipedians" fans to take charge, it can be made into the "tolkiengateway" of ASOIAF world. However, my biggest concern is the issue of accessibility, the HBO Tv series crowd cause massive spikes in bandwidth to the site, thus making it inaccessible sometimes, fix this and... --79.177.207.22 (talk) 19:21, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

File:The World of 'A Song of Ice and Fire'.jpg
File:The World of 'A Song of Ice and Fire'.jpg is discussed at. Please share your views how to proceed with this image there. – sgeureka t•c 17:56, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

A Song of Ice and Fire GAN
I am going to nominate A Song of Ice and Fire for WP:Good article very soon (in no more than a couple of days). I still have the lead to summarize the article body better (WP:LEAD), and I'll go over the prose once more so that no close paraphrasing issues come up later (WP:PARAPHRASE). I am also thinking of spining out some of the Publishing history info into the individual book articles. If someone has helpful comments or wishes to help in other ways, please do so soon. Thank you. – sgeureka t•c 17:56, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Character list merger
As I've mentioned above, I've drafted a merge of the two character lists, located at this subpage o' mine. I've finished writing the character sections. I haven't referenced most of it, and it still needs production and reception. But I'm goign to move it to mainspace anyway. Thought some of you may want to make some comments first. I've put down some of my thoughts below (mostly repeated from (Talk:Major houses in A Song of Ice and Fire): But some of those bannermen and retainers do keep moving around. So I put them under their initial associations. Examples: Brienne is under Baratheon; Roose is under Starks. For wives, I put them under what they are most strongly associated with. I put Lysa under Arryn, and I've titled her heading Lysa Arryn. I'm going to do the same with Catelyn, Catelyn Stark. Same logic with Jon Snow. He's more strongly associated with the Night's Watch than the Starks. Cersei may stay Lannister as she's more associated with the Lannisters than Baratheon, and Elia is still a Martell as I don't think naming her Elia Targaryen will sit well.
 * Organization: I've adopted the organization used on List of characters in Game of Thrones, which is basically arranged by familial associations. Some example headings: House Arryn, retainers and bannermen; Night's Watch and wildlings; Royal court and officials; Other characters. I considered an arrangement similar to the appendices (By Kings or something), but then too many characters change allegiance. In this organization, characters won't move too much.
 * References: I've considered several styles. First I wrote out full refs, but that looked ridiculous and I only had four characters on the page (old diff). I eventually settled on the current format, which I personally like. Links to some referenced character sections: Jorah Mormont, Davos Seaworth, Jeyne Poole.


 * Ultimate location: I think it's best to move it to Characters in A Song of Ice and Fire, as that makes the most sense. I'll bring it up at the project talk page when I finish the draft and refs.


 * Character spin-outs: I'm all for them. I've started a Tyrion Lannister article and an Eddard Stark. For now, I've left the section covering everything and will leave them long until the separate articles are done.


 * Length: Don't know what to do about it until the characters get separate articles. And I'm aware that some of the character sections are literally walls of text. I haven't exactly figured out the best way to break it up, but I'll get to it in a few minutes.


 * Coat of arms: I personally strongly dislike the way the House Arryn one is done and I don't find it necessary for Tyrion's personal coat of arms. And what annoys me is that their not uniform. I personally like the simple one like House Stark's or maybe House Targaryen with the motto on a scroll. The way House Tyrell, for example, I think is too flowery. And House Martell is the only one on a circle. And a tentacle on House Greyjoy is sticking out.
 * Prose: A lot of the character's read really awkwardly and choppy. So it'd be great if anyone good with that kind of stuff could help straighten that out.

So, feel free to make comments. I'd love some. ~Cheers, Ten  Ton  Parasol  21:22, 29 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Your sandbox version looks very very good in strcture and mirrors what I'd have done ("House xxx, retainers and bannermen" sectioning with characters by initial associations). Your ref'ing is similar to what I've found to work independently in the World article. I have no strong opinion about the article name. Thanks to the TV show, I think quite a few characters are notable now to have a spinout article, but I'd be very much opposed to start them all plotty without real-world information; I'd recommend a "someone'll work on it or there'll be no spinout article" approach. I've been making notes in my Game of Thrones and Philosophy book that might help with expansion in particular for Eddard, Cersei, Tyrion, Arya, Sansa, and Joffrey; simply contact me if you're interested. I'll be mostly sticking to the main ASOIAF, Themes and World articles for improvement though for a while. – sgeureka t•c 07:51, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to move it to Characters in A Song of Ice and Fire now, which means blanking Major houses in A Song of Ice and Fire and fixing all those redirects. ~Cheers, Ten  Ton  Parasol  15:27, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
 * So, I merged and everything. But I can't do housekeeping because I have to go somewhere right now. ~Cheers, Ten  Ton  Parasol  16:00, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I have a thing for disambiguation and redirects, so I'll take over for a while. – sgeureka t•c 16:05, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The redirects are mostly fixed now. However, I've found the following redirects for minor characters that aren't mentioned anywhere (not even other characters' sections), plus some unnecessary dab pages. Which of these should be covered in the character list in some form, redirect elsewhere (backstory section), and which should simply be proposed for deletion? – sgeureka t•c 17:15, 2 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Raynald Westerling
 * Hot Pie
 * Gendry
 * Aegon the Conqueror - maybe link to House Targaryen or World#Backstory
 * Aegon I - maybe link to House Targaryen or World#Backstory
 * Aegon I Targaryen - maybe link to House Targaryen or World#Backstory
 * Ronnet Connington
 * Meraxes
 * Vhagar
 * Balerion
 * Rickard Stark
 * Benjen Stark
 * Nymeria - ambiguous
 * Brandon Stark
 * Edward Stark - linked from Milken Archive of Jewish Music
 * Lord Roose Bolton
 * List of characters in A Song of Ice and Fire (disambiguation)
 * Selyse Baratheon (disambiguation)
 * Most of these should be kept as redirects to houses, lists of characters, or elsewhere, IMHO, but a disambiguation for Selyse? Why?! :-) Jclemens (talk) 19:21, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
 * FWIW, I verified that Selyse Baratheon existed, then PROD'ed Selyse Baratheon (disambiguation). Jclemens (talk) 19:28, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

WinterIsComing.net
I was wondering if WinterIsComing.net passes WP:RS or not. I know it's useful and it has given reliable information in the past, but has anyone actually proved it to be a reliable source by Wikipedia standards? ~Cheers, Ten  Ton  Parasol  23:44, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Look at the GA reviews for season 1 episodes for how the various fansites were adjudicated and either removed, replaced, or kept depending on input from reviewers outside this wikiproject. Jclemens (talk) 02:04, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Winter is coming is not a reliable source according to wikipedia standards. A good rule of thumb for blogs/newswebsites is to whether they have editorial oversight. Winter is coming is essentially WIC's personal blog (although he now has other contributing writers, he is not really supervising their work in a meaningful way). Yoenit (talk) 19:33, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

New article proposal: Themes in A Song of Ice and Fire; merge proposal: World of A Song of Ice and Fire (pending)
The A Song of Ice and Fire article is currently about 59kB of readable prose per the User:Dr_pda/prosesize.js tool, and it will continue to grow as I add/expand the last four sizable subsections. However, per WP:SIZERULE, an article >60 KB should "Probably should be divided (although the scope of a topic can sometimes justify the added reading time)". I've been thinking about ways to reduce the article size down the road, like moving out material to the individual book articles or start a new article altogether. What I think as the best way to go is spinout the themes section (A Song of Ice and Fire) that already starts overwhelming the article without being finished, and hence start a Themes in A Song of Ice and Fire article.

Having previously worked on such articles ( Mythology of Carnivàle), I noticed that there is some overlap with World of A Song of Ice and Fire, particularly regarding "Religion" and "Biology" (i.e. magical beings). "Background" could be spiced up with the last paragraph of A Song of Ice and Fire. On the other hand, all the geography info could and IMO should be merged with the Houses information in the character articles (too in-universe-y as a stand-alone section). I therefore propose to get rid of World and start Themes, i..e one article less with WP:MOSFICT issues, and a new article on a very good way to GA status.

I won't start spinning out material for a while (I want to finish A Song of Ice and Fire first and then look into reducing its size), but what do people think about a new Themes article with World being merged in? – sgeureka t•c 08:22, 14 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Update: Yes, I'll spin out the ASOIAF Themes section as Themes in A Song of Ice and Fire as soon as I've settled the close paraphrasing issues. This might take one or two weeks though. I'll only add the Merge for World of A Song of Ice and Fire afterwards. – sgeureka t•c 10:57, 28 February 2012 (UTC)


 * If themes and world will both eventually be appropriately sized, why not work on both of them at once? World is just going to grow as the HBO series gives RS'es more and more reason to write about the locations. Jclemens (talk) 15:46, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I've been thinking long and hard on this, but I've come to the conclusion that there is only like one sentence each à la "King's Landing was filmed in Malta and Croatia."[ref] Anything more would better fit into the main TV article like Game of Thrones (TV series) or Game of Thrones (TV series) or whatever. The main thing that I want to learn here is whether I can give the merger a try without getting reverted immediately. If I come to realize that a merger hurts more than improving the ASOIAF coverage, I'll of course revert that merger attempt. – sgeureka t•c 10:57, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks to two HBO videos about filming locations (, some of ) and a long smartertravel.com interview with GRRM about his inspirations for the many locations, I now think it's best to leave World of A Song of Ice and Fire a separate article and work on it (as JClemens suggested), but make it strictly about the locations. I haven't quite found the right spot for the fictional background info, although I think I can make it work in Themes in A Song of Ice and Fire. Since the Themes article is coming along nicely, and a merger of the World article is out of question for me now, I'll close this discussion. – sgeureka t•c 12:26, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

New article proposal: A Song of Ice and Fire fandom / Game of Thrones fandom
Similar to Tolkien fandom and Harry Potter fandom, I think an ASOIAF fandom article would make sense. The A_Song_of_Ice_and_Fire section currently isn't that large to warrant a spinout, but it used to be longer before I trimmed it, and I have more material in my userspace. Now, the question is: – sgeureka t•c 10:57, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) Whether to create a separate article at all? (I think yes, to cover more aspects that the main ASOIAF article simply cannot bear to size/weight issues.)
 * 2) What name it shall have? "ASOIAF fandom" is more encompassing, but the TV show may actually increase the fandom size beyond anything the novels may have achieved (I may be wrong about the latter). I'd prefer "ASOIAF fandom".
 * Yes to a separate article. I think there should be more information out there and it will help protect the main one. I would try and include the TV show in the split. Not sure on what name does that. Perhaps [A Song of Ice and Fire universe fandom, but I personally would just go with A Song of Ice and Fire fandom and make clear it includes the TV show early in the lead. AIR corn (talk) 12:21, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Merge/redirection proposal: The Winds of Winter
I've been looking for reliable TWOW sources left and right, but all I could find is presently at A_Song_of_Ice_and_Fire. There is a major overlap with the The Winds of Winter article except
 * the TWOW article has some unsourced info about the Arianne sample chapter (no reliable sources found)
 * the ASOIAF#Planned_novels section has some extra info about what GRRM has been doing between the publication of ADWD and January 2012

Since hardly any new useable info of substance will emerge for the next 1-2 years (I think), I propose to redirect the TWOW article to the ASOIAF#Planned_novels section in the meantime. – sgeureka t•c 10:57, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The paperback of A Dance with Dragons with the sample chapter will be released in March. Then we will probably have the chapter.--Oneiros (talk) 18:42, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, and at that point, the current sentence Martin promised to release a second chapter in the back of the A Dance with Dragons paper-back edition,[47] released in March 2012.[8] will simply be updated to Martin released a second sample chapter covering character XXX in the back of the A Dance with Dragons paper-back edition, released in March 2012.[8] If the new sample chapter is in fact Arianne's (which I assume), the Arianne sentence in the TWOW article being unsourced becomes moot. – sgeureka t•c 19:35, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Even with the sample chapter coming with the paperback, I still don't think there is much yet (especially with the WP:RS threshold. I agree with Sgeureka's suggestion for the redirect.  As more comes out it can get its own article again in the future.Caidh (talk) 20:38, 28 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't think so. I know when I was waiting for Inheritance, I kept a bookmark on all the news pages and constantly checked to see if something had been updated; it would have been annoying to find everytime, and harder to tell if anything had been updated if they had merged it with the Inheritance Cycle page. The same with Brisingr. Besides, more will be added to this page, and it will simply have to be moved back again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.216.211.64 (talk) 18:47, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose Enough reliable sources found in a Google News search to justify at least a stub based on the information available about its development. These sources also point to this work in progress being worthy of notice even if it isn't complete yet.66.235.46.168 (talk) 21:57, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Retain separate article There's enough coverage of the future novel under that title that it merits a separate article. Jclemens (talk) 22:20, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment by proposer I cleaned up the TWOW article to make clearer with what were dealing here. That article is currently 1605 B of prose size, and that includes the intro and two sentences for which I doubt to find reliable sources. WP:SIZERULE advices to upmerge such very short articles if they remain this size for over a couple of months (and we're dealing with possibly years here). So JClemens and 66.235.xxx, there is not enough coverage at this point of time to definately keep that separate article around, objectively speaking. Good points were made above that a separate TWOW article might better attract the addition of new material than the summary in the franchise article. Nevertheless, I am not convinced of a separate TWOW article, because it is either way poorer than the the ASOIAF#Planned_novels summary (currently the case, as I did and will only maintain the ASOIAF article), or a duplicate of the ASOIAF#Planned_novels summary (maintainance issues). – sgeureka t•c 13:11, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * In the end, I decided to not merge the TWOW article and instead expand it with all the info I have available. Most of this was already in A Song of Ice and Fire, so there is still much redundance. However, I guess the presentation is quite different from the main ASOIAF article, it pulls all the available info together in one place, plus there is a new Plot section to go wild (with sources), which I wouldn't want to have in the main ASOIAF article. Discussion closed. – sgeureka t•c 10:46, 31 March 2012 (UTC))

Initial inquiry: Fate of the three character lists
So there is Major houses in A Song of Ice and Fire (136kB), Characters in A Song of Ice and Fire (63kB) and List of characters in Game of Thrones (62kB, but mainly redundant with the other two lists). All three lists are large, and I can live with that division. Despite the redundancy, I'd leave the TV character list a stand-alone for now until the fate of the two book character lists has been reconsidered as proposed below.

So I wonder whether there are more appropriate ways to arrange the book characters. The books structure the characters into affiliations, not necessarily House descendants. I've also had good experiences with sorting characters by affiliations/associations with my  Characters of Carnivàle. Particularly when combining the World info with the character lists, affiliations would make very much sense. With a good trim per WP:WAF, the two book LoCs might even fit into one list (no guarantees though), or might be divided into Westeros/Essos for the distinctly separate storylines. Opinions? (The changes would largely affect Characters in A Song of Ice and Fire, not the Houses LoC.) – sgeureka t•c 10:57, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * These are... a mess. I'd favor a hierarchical approach.  Characters should just be a list of characters that have appeared in either TV or books, then broken down into house articles to split up things by size, with moderate-sized summaries of the character arcs.  Then, for characters who have independent RS coverage--which in my mind is really going to be for multiple-season or major single-season (Viserys, Drogo, Eddard) characters represented in the TV show--we get individual articles, while the minor characters get no individual articles. Each character description should cover BOTH the books and TV series, because they're really not that different, and differences can be explained in-text. Jclemens (talk) 22:26, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
 * They are indeed a mess, but they were much worse when we still had separate house articles. This is also the reason why are currently structured in that way, I have no objection to trying a different format. There was also List of characters in A Song of Ice and Fire, which I rather forcefully turned a dab page about a year ago. Going back to house articles seems like a bad idea, but I think we have now reached the point where articles for most major characters could be spun out, which would be necessary for any realistic attempt at merging the two character lists. I agree with keeping the TV character list separate, mostly because the creators have said they expect to deviate from the books in later seasons significantly. Inside the character articles we can simply have a section explaining notable differences between the books and the TV show. Yoenit (talk) 12:18, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I have actually started a merge draft for the two character lists a short while ago. It's located at one of my subpages. I'm not too sure how it's coming along. I mirrored the format of List of characters in Game of Thrones because I thought it to be the most efficient way to organize it. An allegiances sort of thing like the appendices of the novels do would quickly become problematic. Though I'm not too sure of where to put the the married women like Catelyn, should she go under Stark or Tully, and I'm not sure if I should put Jon Snow under Night's Watch or Stark. Going with these examples, if there is, say, a House Stark article, they should definitely be on it. And I was playing around with a ref format because I though it was unnecessary to have the full citation. I think a good example for the refs would be the Jorah Mormont section. I combined Night's Watch and Wildlings because there isn't enough of either for their own section, but too many for Other characters. I don't have any other comments on it at the moment. So, any comments from you guys?
 * And about house pages. I think at this point, a House Stark or House Lannister could be attempted. But then I'm not even sure if reviewers make comments about the Houses as a whole. But if they do, they definitely comment on those two. And I'm totally willing to contribute to separate character articles. ~Cheers, Ten  Ton  Parasol  19:04, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Coat of Arms images
I made new versions of the coats of arms using images from Commons. I tried to make them consistent. The only one I didn't touch was House Targaryen's. House Lannister and House Greyjoy I added scrolls with mottos to match Tagaryen. I redid House Stark to better match the description (A gray direwolf running across an ice white field). The others -- Arryn, Baratheon, Martell, Tully, and Tyrell -- I completely redid. I created Joffrey's personal coat because it becomes the official coat of arms of the royal line of House Baratheon. However, I don't understand why Tyrion's personal is needed. Any comments? ~Cheers, Ten  Ton  Parasol  19:17, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh! And I attempted Stannis'. ~Cheers, Ten  Ton  Parasol  19:25, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * If anyone's the least bit curious as to what they look like, they're on the character list. Though for some reason, the Greyjoy one refuses to properly show up (even though I purged the cache and the scroll shows up on the descript page. So it might just be me). ~Cheers, Ten  Ton  Parasol  01:14, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * They look really good. Is there a reason why they are forced into 100px? The houses' motto is hardly readable, and WP:IMGSIZE recommends to let the software handle the displayed image size. – sgeureka t•c 06:44, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hrm. There isn't actually a reason. I stopped forcing them. ~Cheers, Ten  Ton  Parasol  15:02, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Assessment examples
It's low on the "things to think about" list, but I think it would be better if the assessment scale on assessment page used examples from the project's scope rather than using the default examples. I'm not very good at determining what is what assessment, and in my experience, I've found it's much easier to figure out the assessment of an episode article when the scale gives Blackwater (Game of Thrones) and The Prince of Winterfell as examples rather than Architecture of Sweden or Real analysis. I know that this project is small and doesn't have featured articles or lists, but examples more closely related than an Italian baroque opera can be found, like Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell and The Illuminatus! Trilogy. I know there is a table with links to articles assessed as various qualities, but I think i would be helpful to give some examples in the table at the top of the page rather than having to fish through categories for them. And plus, the grading scheme template has code for this sort of thing. ~Cheers, Ten  Ton  Parasol  19:37, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed. However, if we're going to replace the old non-literary/non-TV article examples (I am not in the mood of doing that myself), I think it's best to give a book article and TV show article (i.e. two articles), preferably from ASOIAF. That way, editors editing just one medium will have examples. – sgeureka t•c 15:39, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Just what I was thinking, exactly like it's done at WP:ANIME/ASSESS. I'll gather the examples. But I'm going to assume this project doesn't use A-class? ~Cheers, Ten  Ton  Parasol  23:48, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Reference style
For anyone interested, User:TenTonParasol and I are discussing what ref style to use in the ASOIAF articles, in particular the book character list and the World article that both have many references to the primary source. Please help shape an opinion (on TTP's talkpage) if you don't like the way we're proceeding. – sgeureka t•c 08:28, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Edit warring at The Kingsroad
Would someone be so kind as to re-revert the editor who keeps trying to whitewash critical reception to The Kingsroad? I've left him a detailed message at User talk:Jak Fisher, but there's no slow-motion edit warring exception for false and POV material, so I'd appreciate a third set of eyes trying to make sure that the article accurately reflects the critical reception. Jclemens (talk) 17:26, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Having trouble find a ref
I'm having a hard time finding a reference for this sentence: "Bean and Peter Dinklage were the two actors whose inclusion show runners David Benioff and Dan Weiss considered necessary for the show to become a success, and for whose roles no other actors were considered." Sean Bean and this cite AV Club's "Baelor" (for experts) article. I couldn't find it in the article. I've also looked on Game of Thrones (TV series), Game of Thrones (season 1), and Winter Is Coming, and still no dice. Does anyone know where this statement comes from? ~Cheers, Ten  Ton  Parasol  20:13, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Parts of that could be referenced with 1 2 (both a bit blog-ish). I do think they were the first choices -- "necessary for the show to become a success" is probably just PR talk (if they said it that). Amalthea  21:16, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

So... I'm kind of new...
And I would like to be productive but I have no idea where to begin, I definitely love asoiaf I just don't know what I can/should do around here since I'm newer to contributing on wikipedia :p. Should I work on adding characters to the list of characters page? :3  dain   talk   09:15, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * For the most part, there is enough ASOIAF plot coverage on wikipedia, and we have to be careful not to add much more to it per WP:NOT. However, help is always wanted and needed. Here are some ideas for improvement:
 * More real-world information for practically anything. Manual of Style/Writing about fiction gives advise for what that means.
 * Sourcing of plot details to (at least) a book chapter. If you care more about the plot than real-world information, the articles Characters in A Song of Ice and Fire or World of A Song of Ice and Fire may be a good start.
 * More "production" information in the book articles. The A Song of Ice and Fire article has some meaty stuff for this, but pay attention to Copying within Wikipedia.
 * As you are new, I'll also say that wikipedia is not the only wiki for anything ASOIAF-related. If you like the wiki experience and want to delve deeper into the fictional world rather than the behind-the-scenes stuff, then fan wikis such as http://awoiaf.westeros.org or http://iceandfire.wikia.com may work better for you, and they also need help.
 * – sgeureka t•c 11:04, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

WP A Song of Ice and Fire in the Signpost
The WikiProject Report would like to focus on WikiProject A Song of Ice and Fire for a Signpost article. This is an excellent opportunity to draw attention to your efforts and attract new members to the project. Would you be willing to participate in an interview? If so, here are the questions for the interview. Just add your response below each question and feel free to skip any questions that you don't feel comfortable answering. Multiple editors will have an opportunity to respond to the interview questions, so be sure to sign your answers. If you know anyone else who would like to participate in the interview, please share this with them. Have a great day. –Mabeenot (talk) 07:21, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
 * With User:TenTonParasol and me (sgeureka), the interview currently focuses more on the bookish side of things. Opinions from TV editors would spice it up a little. – sgeureka t•c 11:25, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Wikidata entries for all possible pages
I've compiled a list of wikidata-entries for characters, families, organizations, wars, battles and other concepts from the world of A Song of Ice and Fire that have an article in at least one other language. The list is probably quite complete, but I can't give any guarantees. If one creates or sees a new article about one of these subjects for this project, please add the article to the Wikidata entry. - FakirNL (talk) 15:34, 1 July 2013 (UTC). Edited at 12:49, 7 July 2013 (UTC).

Other characters: Barristan Selmy, Beric Dondarrion, Brienne of Tarth, Bronn, Davos Seaworth, Illyrio Mopatis, Jaqen H'ghar, Khal Drogo, Mance Rayder, Melisandre, Petyr Baelish, Samwell Tarly, Shae, Thoros de Myr, Tormund, Varys, Ygritte.
 * House Arryn
 * House Baratheon: Robert, Stannis, Joffrey
 * House Greyjoy: Theon
 * House Lannister: Twyin, Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion
 * House Martell
 * House Stark: Eddard, Catelyn, Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon, Jon
 * House Targaryen: Viserys, Daenerys
 * House Tully
 * House Tyrell: Margaery
 * House Bolton
 * House Clegane: Sandor
 * House Frey
 * House Karstark
 * House Mormont: Jeor, Jorah
 * House Reyne
 * House Umber


 * Locations: Places, Free Cities, Vaes Dothrak, The Wall, Westeros
 * Organizations: Brave Companions, Brotherhood Without Banners, Dothraki, Kingsguard, Night's Watch
 * Wars/battles: Wars in A Song of Ice and Fire, Battle of the Blackwater, Battle of the Redgrass Field, Dance of the Dragons, Greyjoy Rebellion, War of Conquest, War of the Five Kings, War of the Ninepenny Kings War of the Usurper
 * Other concepts: Direwolves, History of Westeros, Horn of Winter, King-Beyond-the-Wall, Lightbringer, Religion, Valyrian steel, Warg/Skinchanger, Wildfire
 * We had several articles on wars, tourneys, organizations and locations, but they were merged and the merged articles in some cases deleted. It wouldn't surprise me if we mirrored the entire asoiaf fanwiki at some point. Yoenit (talk) 12:04, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Just wanted to let you guys know that the Spanish Wikipedia still has a lot of them. - FakirNL (talk) 16:27, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Added some house-specific GOT (or Song of Fire and Ice) userboxes for anyone interested...
Posted them here. Just in case anyone really wanted one. Ryecatcher773 (talk) 04:23, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There's a shitload at Category:Wikipedians who read A Song of Ice and Fire too. —  - dain   omite    20:24, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Characters having their own articles?
Currently Brienne of Tarth and Margaery Tyrell are the only two characters to have their own articles, the rest are assembled together on the very long List of A Song of Ice and Fire characters. The situation has come up a couple of times already at Talk:List of A Song of Ice and Fire characters, but it remains strange that a relatively minor character like Brienne has her own article while a 47 chapter POV character and absolute fan favorite like Tyrion Lannister has not. - FakirNL (talk) 19:18, 29 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I've always thought the same FakirNL. It looks like years ago there were separate pages for most of the characters but then at some point everyone just merged all the ASoIaF articles into a handful of articles. Then when the TV show came out a few fans made those two pages. Seeing the ASoIaF "universe" this way on wikipedia compared to other massively in-depth franchises on Wikipedia (Dune (franchise), Star Trek, Star Wars, etc) are the reasons I didn't want to do anything on Wikipedia relating to ASoIaF. le sigh.... —   - dain   omite    19:26, 29 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Looking at the popularity of the ASoIaF books and the GoT television show one should assume that the major characters are definitely notable in their own right. I do believe there might have been concerns that having too many articles would degenerate into fancruft, but well, that could happen to Star Wars and Star Trek character articles as well. Another solution would be to split the list into separate articles for all the Houses (like the Spanish, Italian and Dutch languages do) and reduce the List of A Song of Ice and Fire characters to an overview article without details. That would keep the number of articles within limits so it's easier to protect the quality of the articles. - FakirNL (talk) 20:21, 29 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah, using the same method as those languages would definitely be a better way to go in my humble opinion. I think retaining a list of minor characters / houses would be okay for people like Varys, Petyr Baelish, Brienne who are important but not part of one of the more notable houses. I do like how it's set up on the NL wiki though. —  - dain   omite    20:34, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Here's my take on it. The condensing things into lists happened after article creation on the basis of the books, and was consistent with their independent notability at the time.  That's an aeon (an Aegon?) ago in Wikipedia years.  So... what should happen now?
 * All the credited (first billed) cast from each of the seasons so far probably have enough independent RS coverage for their own characters. Tyrion Lannister definitely does, if for no other reason than Dinklage won an Emmy for him.
 * The recurring cast should have their own articles if appropriate based on coverage. Those not meriting individual coverage should be well-covered in list articles, like they are now.  The list articles should be de-facto incubators for spinout articles once we have enough RS'es: Add the RS'es to the list articles as needed, then spin out characters (leaving the list as the WP:Summary style parent of each character article) once notability is clearly established.
 * There's clearly enough coverage for a few of the character (Tyrion, Arya, Sansa, Jon, maybe a few others) to reach GA status, like some of the episode articles have. Jclemens (talk) 16:46, June 29, 2013‎


 * Yep yep, I concur on all points there Jclemens. Where should we go from here? —  - dain   omite    22:09, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Should we make articles for the Houses as well or just split off individual articles from the large list? Articles for the Houses would mean a triple system (overall list; house; individuals) but it would group minor characters from major houses together. - FakirNL (talk) 09:02, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I think a triple system would be acceptable. The Dune franchise does this also, List of Dune characters, House Atreides, Paul Atreides. —  - dain   omite    14:24, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
 * We have had this discussion before and there is definitely consensus to create individual character articles for all major characters in the HBO adaption. I strongly oppose House articles though. We used to have them and they were absolutely horrible pieces of cruft (see for example this historical revision of House Targaryen, which contains entries for every single historical Targaryen). That being said, these articles are preserved as redirects, so if there is consensus to unmerge them it can be done. Yoenit (talk) 21:49, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Would separate House articles irrevocably degenerate into fancruft or would it be possible to keep them clean? They have the advantage of being able to list mid-level-importance characters together. All the uncles and cousins and little sisters that might not deserve their own article but should be listed somewhere. Good luck with the operation, I will probably focus more on the Dutch Wikipedia and make sure that at least the most important info could be found in that language as well. - FakirNL (talk) 22:42, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think that house articles would necessarily degenerate, given the much, much wider exposure these articles have now vs. when the books were the only source material. I would suggest, however, that if they are done, doing them in a sandbox first and leaving the redirect in place until the revision is ready for prime-time would be a good idea given the scrutiny these articles have based on the series' popularity. Jclemens (talk) 23:42, 30 June 2013 (UTC)


 * An individual character article should not be regarded as a badge of in-universe/real-world significance of said character, but of necessity after editorial work (WP:SPINOUT for size considerations). Spinning out characters into individual articles (again) is easy, while maintaining (never mind improving) such articles is so much harder then, because it's so easy to promise work and never get around to do it (I am guilty of that as well). Therefore, I highly endorse JClemens' view to use the list article(s) as incubators, and only spinout individual characters once enough non-fancrufty coverage has been added. My opinion about House articles is divided -- I'd rather keep it all nice and short in a main character list, but I admit now that this is simply not feasable in the long run with such a big and popular book/TV series. – sgeureka t•c 16:58, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I also like Jclemens idea of an "incubator" for individual character articles prior to them "going live" if you will. One thing I'm wondering about is regarding coverage of book / TV material. Since obviously the TV show isn't going strictly by the books. A for instance would be on Robb's page stating that in the books he marries Jeyne Westerling and she doesn't go to the red wedding while in the TV show he marries some other girl who does go to the red wedding, etc. Eh... now that I'm typing this out I spose it could be covered in a "differences between books / television series" or something. I don't think house articles would solely go back to a ton of fancruft if we police them appropriately, although that wouldn't be fun if fancruft was being constantly added (but judging by the lack of edits to ASOIAF related pages the past few years it shouldn't be a huge problem.) —  - dain   omite    19:34, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Category:A Song of Ice and Fire characters is ready for those sections that already long and balanced enough to be split off. Meanwhile I'm improving the Dutch articles as announced. - FakirNL (talk) 20:04, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If the procedure Jclemens outlined is followed, I have no remaining objections to unmerging the house articles. Yoenit (talk) 11:02, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, so I went ahead and did this, based on the one for Brienne of Tarth. It doesn't have all the details and references and photos and stuff, but it is a start I guess. BrianFG (talk) 09:25, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
 * If you look at the articles, House Stark, and others, you will notice that there were individual articles for the Major Houses along with a lot of character articles, location articles, etc. These were all undone, changed to redirects, etc. around four years ago. So if you want to rebuild the articles, a large amount of work can be seen just by viewing the edits prior to the redirects. At the time, a lot of editors were talking about the articles being largely cruft and were handled better in other media-specific wikis. This was, naturally, before the explosion of the show on television. Pejorative.majeure (talk) 21:48, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Infobox image screen captures - Are we using them?
How are we treating this? I know on some series (like Doctor Who, for instance) use them, but most others don't, and greatly outnumber those that do in the FA listings. I think that screen caps are always a mixed bag - some are clearly apparent as pivotal moments within the episode, while others are well, hard to understand. I personally think they get in the way of the improvement process, and are better suited tot he body of the article. I was wondering for clarification on how the WikiProject is handling this matter, and if there is any uniform consensus on the matter. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 14:18, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 15:36, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Ned Stark article creation
So I researched an article for Ned Stark and posted it for review and submission. The article can be found on my sandbox. Any help with editing it would be greatly appreciated. Eric the fever (talk) 02:14, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't see it. Bad link? Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:56, 16 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Sandbox article got accepted and moved to article space. You can edit the article Eddard Stark.  Do note that a great deal of care was spent ensuring that plot bloat was kept to an absolute minimum.  Eric the fever (talk) 05:51, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Proposal for character articles
ASoIaF is a series that revolves around POVs.

We have 4 POVs with more than 30 chapters:

-Tyrion Lannister: 47 chapters, excluding Winds chapters

-Jon Snow: 42 chapters

-Arya Stark: 33 chapters, excluding Winds chapters

-Daenerys Targaryen: 31 chapters

These are the four most important characters.

And there are the 10 other important POVs:

-Eddard Stark: 15 chapters

-Catelyn Stark: 25 chapters

-Sansa Stark: 24 chapters

-Bran Stark: 21 chapters

-Theon Greyjoy: 13 chapters

-Davos Seaworth: 13 chapters

-Samwell Tarly: 10 chapters

-Jaime Lannister: 17 chapters

-Cersei Lannister: 12 chapters

-Brienne of Tarth: 8 chapters

I believe these 14 major POVs should have their own articles, but nobody else. Yes, Stannis or Tywin might be as important as Brienne, but if we start making articles for non-POVs there would be endless edit wars and disputes over which characters deserve articles.

So we should merge Littlefinger and Margaery Tyrell into the main characters in A Song of Ice and Fire article, and create articles for Ned, Cat, Bran, Davos, Theon, Samwell, Jaime, and Cersei.-Stannis I (talk) 00:42, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


 * This is a fine idea, but you're looking at this the wrong way. Yes, the POV characters are important within the context of the books and the perhaps the franchise, but every character you list does not necessarily meet Wikipedia's threshold for having an individual article. Likewise, some non-POV characters do. Basically, in this case a fictional character article has to be much more than just plot summary, and should assert notability that is supported by external sources. In the last few weeks I have personally expanded Tyrion Lannister, Jon Snow and Eddard Stark from basically all-plot articles waiting to be challenged into fully realized character articles (though not even complete yet). Next I'll probably do Daenerys Targaryen. I've started with these because, as the more popular and notable characters, they have the most coverage in a variety of sources. This means, magazines and books and reputable websites commenting on and analyzing the characters and their story lines, etc. I've started collecting research, and many of the characters you list have a decent amount of info out there that be used to start decent articles. But some don't. And while I agree that the Petyr Baelish "article" should be merged back into the character list because it is all plot and there isn't much out there (at least for now) to flesh it out in a real manner, the Margaery Tyrell article is very well sourced and proves that the character, though relatively minor in the books, has still been discussed a lot, especially in light of the TV version's expansion and popularity. Compare Arya Stark and Sansa Stark to the expanded articles I mentioned and you should see what I mean; the Stark sisters deserve their own articles and there is plenty of stuff out there to construct them, but they are not really acceptable in their current form. I'm sorry if this sounds like a lecture, but the way you worded this proposal makes me think that editors may now go out and start drafting plot-summary articles for these characters. We already have brief plot overviews of each one in the List of A Song of Ice and Fire characters. It would be much more helpful to choose one at a time and research the heck out of it to come up with a decent article that can withstand challenges of notability.&mdash; TAnthonyTalk 04:48, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


 * I second TAnthony on this one. The problem with creating character articles (as I learned when I started to create mine), is that they very quickly become bloated with plot details.  The history of the novel's character page is a good example of how good intentions can quickly go awry.  By the time I started working on it, the article was a 270,000 byte monstrosity that was unreadable in its current state.  That happened largely because people kept adding more and more plot details, explanations, and tangents to better fill out the world and explain other plot details.  The result was a Loras Tyrell section that was four paragraphs long, an Arya Stark article that was 90% trivia about the character, and so on.


 * The general threshold of article notability should be: Does the literary world write extensively about this character? Lots has been written about Eddard Stark and his role in the story, whereas I cannot think of a single time I have come across an article on the literary significance of Davos Seaworth.  I am not saying that he is not an important character to the novels / TV show.  I am just asking is he significant enough that people are writing about him in ways that are not just plot summaries.  Most of the POV characters fail that test Eric the fever (talk) 00:52, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

De-bloating of Character Page complete, moving on to trimming the Geography Article
So I have sharpened my wiki knives and cut the character list down to size. I have moved on to the Geography section to debloat that. Once both are complete, I will be making a pass at all of the character articles and make sure everything links up properly.-- Eric the fever (talk) 01:17, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

RfC: Is Westeros.org an expert SPS?
There is an RfC at Oathkeeper regarding whether the site Westeros.org meets the criteria for an expert self-published source (and is therefore suitable for use on Wikipedia). It is being cited as a source for the statement "This episode was based on [specific chapters of] [specific book]." Participation is welcome. Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:33, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

RfC: Is WatchersOnTheWall.com an expert SPS?
There is an RfC at Game of Thrones (season 5) regarding whether the site WatchersOnTheWall.com meets the criteria for an expert self-published source (and is therefore suitable for use on Wikipedia). Participation is welcome. Piandme (talk) 01:14, 26 September 2014 (UTC)


 * For some reason the link provided isn't working, but this one should do: . Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:02, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

RfC: Should the article state which chapters appear in the episode?
This RfC is meant to determine whether Game of Thrones episode articles should have a statement like "In addition to chapter 72 (Jaime IX), some of the content from this episode is also found in A Storm of Swords chapters 61, 68, and 71 (Sansa V, Sansa VI, Daenerys VI)" in the body text. The outcome of this RfC is likely to affect all Game of Thrones episode articles. Participation is greatly appreciated. Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:57, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Comment on the WikiProject X proposal
Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

The World Of Ice and Fire
Would it be a good idea for someone to make a page for this Talk:A Song of Ice and FirePiandme (talk) 20:05, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

WikiProject X is live!


Hello everyone!

You may have received a message from me earlier asking you to comment on my WikiProject X proposal. The good news is that WikiProject X is now live! In our first phase, we are focusing on research. At this time, we are looking for people to share their experiences with WikiProjects: good, bad, or neutral. We are also looking for WikiProjects that may be interested in trying out new tools and layouts that will make participating easier and projects easier to maintain. If you or your WikiProject are interested, check us out! Note that this is an opt-in program; no WikiProject will be required to change anything against its wishes. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you!

Note: To receive additional notifications about WikiProject X on this talk page, please add this page to WikiProject X/Newsletter. Otherwise, this will be the last notification sent about WikiProject X.

Harej (talk) 16:56, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

File:SansapleadsforNed.png
Another editor has placed a disputed fair use speedy deletion template on this file, when in fact the use is squarely within our fair use guidelines. Can I get another editor to remove the template from the page? As creator, I'm not supposed to. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 04:34, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

RFC of a subject which may be of interest to this Wikiproject
Please come to the RFC at Talk:Peter_Dinklage if it interests you to do so. -- Jayron 32 03:04, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Game of Thrones title sequence listed at Requested moves
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Jon Snow (character) listed at Requested moves
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List for deletion
I've nominated the new List of Game of Thrones directors for deletion, if anyone would like to participate in the discussion.— TAnthonyTalk 14:25, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

Differences between book and show? (specifically R+L=J)
A bunch of articles (Daenerys Targaryen to cite just one), essentially written as though they are about the books, have started citing R+L=J as matter of fact, but this doesn't seem appropriate unless we state inline that we are talking about the HBO adaptation. Thoughts? Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 13:38, 17 July 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure most of the character articles have a pretty clear delineation between the books and the show in their presentation, I believe you're talking about the infobox. That is easily remedied, I just separated "Novels" with "Television" information in relatives in Daenerys Targaryen, as we commonly do in first. This is a pretty common practice in character articles in general. The other issue are the family trees, which fanboys were in a rush to update of course. I think a footnote there is enough to explain the disparity, it's not as if we all don't know GRRM will write it in.— TAnthonyTalk 13:54, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
 * No we don't. GRRM said years ago when he was still a fan of the show (he seems to have since soured on it) that years before that Dan and Dave had talked with him and he agreed to them making the show based on their answer to the question of who Jon Snow's mother is. This doesn't mean anything for how the recent TV storylines relate to what will happen in future books, though, because for all we know they said "Well, we know in the books that it is Ashara, but since it would be difficult to work that into a television adaptation because of how obscure she is relative to the rest of the plot" and GRRM said "Wow, that's a really resourceful way of looking at the problem". (Note that I am not claiming this is the best interpretation of the known facts; but it's just as good as most of what one sees in fan blogs.) Personally, I find Preston Jacobs' arguments for R+L=D, B+A=J quite compelling, and the show hasn't even disproven R+L=D within its own continuity, and even if R+L=J+D winds up getting confirmed, this would invalidate the claim that Daenerys is Jon's aunt anyway. In all seriousness, though, for Wikipedia I think we should be super-careful with anything that approaches conflation of the books and show (even the fan-wiki AWOIAF dilligently keeps fan theories out of their main articles), and your fixes are good. Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 14:31, 17 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Keivan.f objected to my edit at Daenerys Targaryen, and though I believe R+L=J will play out in the books as well, I believe you are correct that technically it is not yet proven (citable) when talking about book material. As KetchupRevenge said in the similar Kylo Ren/Ben Solo discussion (the surname Solo was never mentioned for Ben in the film): "Wikipedia is not actually about truth, it is about citable content. Even if it's common sense for his name to be Solo (which it is common sense), it's not citable, therefore actually violates Wikipedia's policy regarding original research." It may be kind of a mess to implement this across all the Stark character pages as I did with Daenerys, but maybe we can agree on a sensible way to present this properly. Do we think enough active ASOIAF editors are actually watching this talk page?— TAnthonyTalk 16:48, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I've been quietly watching this, and been kind of waiting to see how the main arguments development, seeing as the pair of you actually seem to be in agreement. I do think that, all subtext and however one may feel it's inevitable that it will play out the same in the books or what have you, it needs to be stated that this is currently the case only for the television series as of right now. Despite statements that D&D know who it's going to be in the books, despite them saying that they're still retaining certain elements, we can't verify what elements are remaining true, and so, we have to stick with what we can source, and that is this is only for the HBO adaptation. ~Cheers, Ten  Ton  Parasol  17:09, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Likewise, on first read I initially thought this was silly and indefensible speculation, but then we get a ton of stuff happening in the show that completely departs from where the books went. It seems reasonable to discriminate between show continuity and book continuity, and note that GRRM has stopped using his 'how many children does Scarlett O'Hara have?' argument. Jclemens (talk) 05:10, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
 * No, I'm not speculating. I have my views on the story (I mostly agree with Preston, mind you), but my views don't belong on Wikipedia. However, the views of other fans who don't agree with me also don't belong on Wikipedia unless they are explicitly stated as the opinions of fans. In this case, they were being stated as though they were fact confirmed by GRRM, which is of course totally unacceptable. And it is pretty obvious that GRRM has soured on the show (compare anything he said about it in 2011-2012 to anything he has said in 2015-2016, as well as the mere fact that he is no longer a regular writer for the show). Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 11:55, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
 * He still posted the emmy noms and praised a number of the actors' performances, but yeah, I'm sure he's threatened by the fact that the show has taken his earlier good writing and made it better, and taken his latter dreck (another Targaryen prince?! Tyrion Finn? What the...?!) and actually made a good story out of it. But I digress.... Jclemens (talk) 14:15, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't agree with you that the last few seasons of the show have been better than the last few books, but on the substance you and I actually probably agree. I think GRRM is probably resentful of the show for attaining more "mainstream" popularity than his books, and for people constantly confusing the show with the books, as happened here in fact -- I even saw a conversation between GRRM and an even more illustrious author on YouTube, in which the latter repeatedly referred to the former's book series as "Game of Thrones". Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 07:30, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Deletion of Rickon Stark
Just to let you know, a discussion is occuring on whether to delete the article Rickon Stark. So far, only two editors have contibruted to the discussion, and I feel more editors need to be in the discussion, to make an informed decision. Editors of all views are welcome. TedEdwards (talk) 21:55, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the note. DELSORT fictional elements, television, and/or science fiction (which includes fantasy, it seems) are all likely relevant, too, and so I've opined and added them. Jclemens (talk) 05:01, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

Individual character articles like Robert Baratheon and Petyr Baelish are an OR mess
Why do we have so many articles on individual characters that consist of nothing but plot summaries based on Wikipedians' interpretations of the primary sources? Most of them seem to have sprung up in the last year, and they all seem to be pretty terrible. Who decided that all these redirects could and should be expanded? Why? When? Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 05:34, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

FLC for season 1
I have started a FLC nomination for Game of Thrones (season 1), here. Please help provide constructive comments, or, even better, help fix the identified issues. Note that if this list becomes FLC, the entire first season will qualify as a good topic. So, if you aren't able to help out on the FLC, making sure that the rest of the articles in the first season are still up to snuff with GA criteria would also be very helpful. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 23:13, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
 * After months of waiting, punctuated by a few furious hours of work here and there, we have a season article as a FL! I've nominated the first season for good topic at WP:FTC as well.  I believe we've got a strong start on Season 6, and would encourage other editors to join in and help clean up the show episode articles to GA status. Jclemens (talk) 06:55, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Great job man. I'm working on episodes from the sixth season at this moment. But I would love to help with the other episode at the meantime. - AffeL (talk) 12:01, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Keep doing what you're doing with S6 GAs; based on what you've accomplished so far, it makes more sense to focus on that as our next collaborative effort than, say Season 2 (which would be my normal preference). I'll try and chip in with some of that.  Of course other editors are always free to do what they wish... Jclemens (talk) 17:21, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

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 * Nice. Looks like this means Game of Thrones (season 1) is actually a WP:MILLION winner.  How are we doing on the others? Jclemens (talk) 02:28, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Pronunciation keys for ambiguous names
The thought occurred to me just now reading the lead of Margaery Tyrell, which gives the IPA spelling of her (difficult-to-read) first name, next to the IPA of her (relatively straightforward) house name. But is giving IPA for ASOIAF characters wise?

There are a lot of characters whose names are pronounced in multiple ways, and everyone in House Tyrell is among them. Which pronunciation is "official"? The show is fairly inconsistent and apparently depends largely on the actor and director; the audiobooks are a bit more consistent because they are all recorded by the same actor, but I don't think anyone pronounces "Petyr" the way Roy Dotrice does except Dotrice himself. Similarly, in the HBO adaptation the first consonant of "Gendry"'s name is fairly consistently pronounced like it "game", but Dotrice pronounces it like "George".

Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 07:11, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Next steps for recognized content
So, here's where we are: What all else does anyone want to collaborate on? Jclemens (talk) 06:31, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Almost all of the S6 articles have been brought up to GA.
 * S1 is up for Good Topic at WP:FTC. It would be logical to get S6 up there next.
 * There's some sentiment that the soundtrack articles need to be at GA for a season to qualify as a good topic.
 * Several of the articles which are summary style children of Game of Thrones are pretty basic. With the overall episodes list as FL, and the main article for Game of Thrones at GA, we could probably piece together a new good topic with things like music and awards covering the entire series.


 * S6 episodes are all at GA. Next step should be to bring Game of Thrones (season 6). Their we should expand the lead and add sources to the cast section for every actor. I think I can easily bring Music of Game of Thrones up to GA and I will also try to work on List of awards and nominations received by Game of Thrones for FL. BTW thanks for all the hard work on GoT related articles. - AffeL (talk) 10:41, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
 * OK, S1 is now a Good Topic! What do we need to do for S6? Jclemens (talk) 03:36, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
 * We need to put sources in the cast section and possibly expand the critical reception part. Other problems that may be brought up is that the plot section needs to be trimmed down or that Music and After the Thrones in production needs to be expanded a bit. - AffeL (talk) 10:16, 19 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Maybe instead of working on getting the content "recognized", we should work on actually improving them so that they deserve said recognition? No? Just a thought. Most of the GA/FA/FLs I've looked at have ... a variety of problems.
 * When I emailed CT back in February to recommend he watch the HBO show, he joked that he could just read our articles on the individual episodes, given how much detail we give on their plots. Ironically, at least one was trimmed to pass GA review some years ago, and then grew back to pre-review size. Semi-annual GAR should be obligatory to maintain GA status, at least for pop culture articles, IMO.
 * Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 01:27, 18 June 2017 (UTC)