Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aircraft/Archive 16

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Section ordering
Hi, wikipedia has a regular order of section, among them, these order for sections towards the end:
 * See also
 * References
 * External links
 * Navboxes
 * Categories
 * Language interwiki-links

In my experience, all wikipedia articles adhere to this standard, even if they are part of some WikiProject. I've now been told here that the WikiProject Aircraft tries to change this order and the names of the sections. Can somebody give me a link where it is noted why this discrepancy improves both Aircraft and general wikipedia pages? Because I tend to disagree - but like to read the reasons first. Thanks Peter S. 16:46, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * See the page content tab off the main WP:Aircraft page. I don't see what you're talking about.  The Related content falls in the Navbox area. -Fnlayson 17:02, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * That's the point. Related content is similar to "See also" in most other pages, but is placed differently. The situation looks like it was agreed upon to depart from the general wikipedia section order (rename "see also" into "related content", move it to the end) for a reason that makes some things better. I'd like to know that reason. Thanks. Peter S. 17:20, 2 June 2007 (UTC)


 * There's a short answer to a similar question at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aircraft/page content. For more detailed discussions, you could probably find something in the archives at the top of this page, if you enjoy searching archives! One of the old-timers who was around when the desicions were made should be along today or tomorrow with a longer answer. - BillCJ 17:52, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Note that the MoS headings is stated as a guideline and as such is not a hard policy. Also, the Related content is the aircontent template and acts like a Navbox. The Aviation list is added by this template. The list would have to be removed if the section were moved. -Fnlayson 18:28, 2 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The first point to make is that there was no "decision to depart" from the order given in MoS:headings. The idea that these sections should be ordered in some special way was introduced in MoS:headings by User:Obey on 22 October 2005 in this edit and was, as far as I can tell, an undiscussed change. Meanwhile, WikiProject Air's "related content" section had already existed for some eighteen months. It was originally in the form of a navbox (hence its placement at the foot of the page), but by consensus was broken out into plain text for aesthetic reasons in July 2004 (see here).


 * The second point (which flows from that) is that the actual content of this section has always been used as something akin to a navbox, not a "See also" section, so it's incorrect to say that "Related content is similar to 'See also' in most other pages, but is placed differently". Indeed, since at least late 2004, "Related Content" has included the article's "See also" section; so this is the section that we're really talking about. It's also worth noting that, in practice, it is very seldom used.


 * I, for one, would have no problem seeing "See also" moved out of "Related content" and into its own section as per MoS. What would be involved would be a review of all aircraft articles (around 3,000 at the moment) to identify which ones actually have entries under "See also" and move this material, followed by an edit of Template:Aircontent to remove the "See also" section. Anyone volunteering? --Rlandmann 22:11, 2 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you, very insightful comments. I'd be glad to help. As there are 3000 articles, I think we should write this down as a goal and give us some time go through them all (as finding a single volunteer would be pretty difficult imho). Peter S. 16:41, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Taking Rlandmann's final comments seriously (which I didn't), it's probably better to leave well enough alone. As it stands, the "see also" field is not visible within the template when it's not used. We might as well leave it there, rather than to change a long-standing practice, and introduce confusion as to where it should be placed in the articles. I for one will NOT be volunteering to help make these changes. It's also a bit premature to be looking for volunteers, especially as no concensus to change them has been reached yet.


 * Given the fact the the WP:AIR guidelines were in place BEFORE the non-consensual WIki-wide standards were put it place, I propose making the WP:AIR style the standard for all WIki articles, and forcing them to change to our standards by precedent. - BillCJ 17:27, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Or reword/adjust the MoS headings guide to allow exceptations as with WP:AIR's aircontent template. -Fnlayson 18:01, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Come on, Jeff! You're taking the fun out of this! ;) It's actually a good suggestion, though. - BillCJ 18:11, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, that comment wasn't purely sarcastic - I was just pointing out that as far as I can see, it's a very big job for very little actual benefit and that I for one certainly won't be volunteering. Anyone who does volunteer would have to be someone who feels that the outcome of moving these links from one part of the page to another part of the page was worth the investment of many many person-hours of work. Can we at least agree, however, that if Peter S. wants to undertake this work and/or find volunteers to help him that WP:AIR would have no opposition to this? Can we also agree to update the page guidelines so that any new pages that include a "See also" section put it in the conventional position? --Rlandmann 19:12, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I didn't think it was completely sarcastic, but maybe a bit more than you had intended. But I honestly don't see why our systems needs to be changed at all. So, yes, if Peter S. tries to change the system in WP:AIR without first achieving a consensus within WP:AIR to do so, then he will have oppostion, at least from me. Second, because the WP:Air position for the "See also" was agreed to first, I consider it to BE the conventional position! Can we please just leave well enough alone? - BillCJ 20:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Cool - I'm happy to leave it at that. Peter S., if this really means that much to you, it seems you'll have to build consensus first. --Rlandmann 22:25, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Alright. So the suggestion is "update the page guidelines: 'See also' may be put in the conventional position". Pro: Rlandmann, Fnlayson, me. Against: BillCJ. Question to BillCJ: there are about 1,8 million pages (Special:Statistics), I'd guess roughly 20% of them have a "see also" paragraph. You propose that 360000 pages are changed - are you serious? :-) Question 2: both order standards are just different, can you tell me why you think the AIR way is better (not older)? Thanks. Peter S. 06:16, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I guess you didn't understand when I said, "Can we please just leave well enough alone?" I meant you leave our style alone, and we'll leave your's alone. Capish? The WP:AIR style is not "better" that the other style, just better for WP:AIR's purposes. The standard style does not work for WP:AIR's purposes, in my opinion. The reasons why are already given above by several users, including myself. So please, just move on, and leave things the way they are, and quit trying to fix something that ain't broken. - BillCJ 06:31, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Couldn't have put it better myself, BillCJ. Emoscopes Talk 07:22, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Alright, looks like some major balkanization is going on here. It's no longer "we, the folks of wikipedia" - it's now "we, the folks of a certain wikiproject vs some foreign other wikipedia editors". Since the power of wikipedia is in the universal presentation of all articles, I hope you do realize what you are saying is not good for the health of the project. On a general sense: yes it's a small thing. But I think we should even make small things similar because it's more usable if certain sections are always in the same order. Please realize I'm not asking you to go through the 3000 articles. I'm just trying to find consensus. It's not *your* style, it's *our* style: I'm counting me in here because I'm a regular wp editor and that is the only thing that counts. Can you tell me some other reason why you think that the guideline " 'See also' may be put in the conventional position" should not be added? Thanks. Peter S. 20:43+21:13, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, there are a whole lot of other things going on that aren't good for the health of Wikipedia that are much higher up the list than whether or not every project on WIki should be forced to present info the exact same way, regardless of whether it makes sense for that project or not. The issue here is not that we don't want to conform to some arbitrary standard, but that this style works best for the presentation of information in aircraft articles. - BillCJ 21:09, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I realize that there are other things that are important, but with so many participants, we just have got to start somewhere, and this issue is as good as any. You're saying this style works best for aircraft - how? I don't see how a certain section ordering is particularly better suited when we are describing aircraft, when the "normal" wikipedia section order works perfectly fine for things like cars and spacecraft. Can you explain your argument? Peter S. 21:37, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Because the WP:AIR "see also" section is no the same as the regular "see also" section. Most non-aircraft articles use their "See also section for all WIki articles that are similar content or on a related subject. In WP:AIR, it is bascially a list of articles or concepts that are covered in the articles, or of poele or otrher subjects that might be related, but that are not "Related aircraft" or "similar/comparable aircraft". They may use the same name, but they don't fill the exant same funtion. Taking the "see also" section out of the "Related contents" template and putting it above references will split up the section, and not really accomplish anything. As it is not often used, leaving it in the "aircontent" template allows other editors to know exactly where to put it if they do need to use it. Btw, this style was chosen by consensus, and you need consensus to change it. "It's not in the conventioanl position, so we should move it there" is not a good enough reason to change a system that work for the project to one that doesn't. There are many editors within WP:AIR, and most have not weighed in on this yet. Four or 5 editors is not a consensus, and you have a long way to go. - BillCJ 21:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Again the MoS headings is stated as a guideline and as such is not a hard policy. We have a fine reason to treat it a guide and not follow it exactly.  The See also section being a little lower in the Aircontent template is a minor nit.  My earlier comments clearly stated the MoS style page could use some tweaking to clarify this, not the aircontent template. -Fnlayson 22:12, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll go on the record as saying that I really couldn't care less about where "See also" goes, and I don't think that either position has any advantage over the other whatsoever - so please don't count me amongst the "yes" votes!


 * In practice, the sorts of things that generally go into WP:AIR's "See also" are things that are more tangential to the aircraft being described (for example, famous accidents involving the type), whereas everything else in "Related content" links to other aircraft. In this way, I have to disagree with BillCJ and say that these types of links are actually more like what goes into MOS:heading's "See also".


 * However (and it's a big however), I maintain that moving it is simply not worth the effort. If we estimate an average of around a minute to review each article and make changes when necessary (sometimes none, sometimes easy, but other times disentangling other navboxes from the "See also" section), that's 50 editor-hours' work to move links from one place on a page and put them in another spot on the same page. As I see it, Peter S., the onus is on you to justify why the advantages of moving are so great that this is a good (and respectful) ask to make of anyone's time; as you're (so far) the only person who seems to have a problem with things the way that they are. All I've seen so far are generalisations about how it would improve the usability of Wikipedia in some undefined way.


 * As for Balkanisation, surely you can't be surprised? I for one found the tone of your initial posts to be demanding and accusatory, and perhaps others felt the same? Furthermore, to me, they smacked of one of the very worst things that Wikipedia seems to bring out - people perceiving a problem, then telling others what they should do to fix it. If I've sounded harsh at all, I'll admit that this last point is a particular hot button for me!


 * Hopefully, however, we can all put that behind us, and if you can come up with (a) some compelling reason why this is worth the effort (b) a solid proposal showing exactly what changes are to be implemented and (c) tell us all who's going to actually do the work, maybe you can build the consensus you need to get going. --Rlandmann 23:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I can live with the suggestions Rland has made. If a consenus to change the location follows the proscibed path and achieves consensus, I'll abide by it (as I always try to even when I disagree). I will say that Peter S. has done the right thing in discussing this, and not (to my knowledge, as I have not checked any articles not on my watchlist) tried to impose his ideas/views without consensus. Having dealt with projects and editors how make changes while matters are still being discussed (such as the recent spate of spoiler warning removals from film and TV pages BEFORE a consensus was reached), I am personally grateful to see someone willing to do it the right way, whatever my view of the issues involed. Those who do not wait to establish consensus before instituting their plans are far more damaging to Wikipedia than simply having differing guideliens within some project, and I am glad Peter S is not among those doing that damage. Thanks! - BillCJ 00:09, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi, if you found the tone of my initial posts demanding and accusatory, then this was not intended. I just read them again and it didn't feel like that for myself. If anyone did: sorry. Concerning effort vs. outcome: the WikiProject Aircraft has already taken tens of thousands of editor work hours - it's huge! If we do the change spread over a few months as part of regular article cleanups, then these few hours will feel as small as they really are.
 * "Better" and "lots of work" are two different things. Even if you don't want to do the work, we can still agree that it would be better. Let's divide the process. First we agree what's better, then we see how we proceed to changing it. So, in step one, I haven't yet seen a good argument why the "old" way is better. Peter S. 12:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Again, you're missing our last points. We don't have have to prove our way is better in order to keep it - you have to build a clear consensus in order to change it! Why this way is preferable has been laid out in nauseating detail above, and if it hasn't convinced you yet, I'm not sure what will. Rlandmann, an admin, has laid out the pattern for you to follow in building a consensus to change the way WP:AIR handles the "see also" section. And given the most recent comments of other editors, you do not yet even have a concensus of the editors participating in this discussion, much less enough editors to be considered a consensus for a Project-wide change. - BillCJ 16:48, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Well again you're missing my point: there hasn't been an argument shown by anybody here why the local way of doing things is better than the global way of doing things. BillC's edit from 21:47, 6 June 2007 did not introduce any new things. "We like it the old way" and "but it's a lot of work" may count inside the community of the people that visit this page here, but they surely are not the rule in all of wikipedia. Rlandmann did not lay out a pattern except "build concensus". I tried, and I've been very nice to everybody here, and in return I've been getting no arguments that count, and received such aggressive words as "capisce" and "nauseating". I'm sorry this is not working out. I feel we need a clearer definition how much a WikiProject can stray away in terms such as formatting and definition of processes. If I'm doing anything more regarding this issue, then it will be outside this page. Goodbye. Peter S. 18:56, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Heli-Jet
User:Jetwave Dave has created a new article at Heli-Jet. It currently has NO sources, and no support for the use of the term as described. I am added a notability tag at this time, and we'll see how the page goes. The subject would probably be better covered on the VTOL page. - BillCJ 20:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Pop-culture neologism, I think. Once various airline and charter companies are excluded from a Google search for the term, all that's left are references to the Thunderbirds TV series, and (what I think is the origin of this article), Battlefield 2142. --Rlandmann 22:39, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The quick fix would be to make it redirect to something appropiate like VTOL. But based on Rlandmann's comments above, it doesn't appear worthy of that.. -Fnlayson 23:20, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

So, AfD? - BillCJ 23:57, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * As I recall, the term first popped up in the 1950s, but never caught on – chiefly because the implied technology never developed. I can't say I've ever heard of Heli-Jet or Helijet use recently as other than a brand name, per Rlandmann. If it had ever become a common-use term, it would have been difficult for those companies to have branded it, so I wouldn't even rate it a "neologism". Best thing to do is post him a query for a reliable source and invite him here – which I'll do. Askari Mark (Talk) 00:30, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I've looked through my print references, including the "bible" of the subject, Ray Prouty's Helicopter Aerodynamics, and found absolutely no reference to the term, even in chapters that deal with the type of compound aircraft that you'd expect the term to refer to. If the emminent Prouty doesn't use the term, I doubt it's legit. I would suggest a redirect, rather than AfD, because someone might someday use it as a search term.  AK Radecki Speaketh  19:04, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, I made Heli-Jet redirect to VTOL. Copied the main content to VTOL talk in case something is useful. -Fnlayson 17:44, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Coordination for improved productivity
Could everyone have a look at WikiProject Aviation/Aviation Project Coordinator Proposal, and make any comments there. This is an idea that the Military History project uses, and their production of high quality articles far exceeds ours. - Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 23:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Need help in UC-61 Forwarder article
I came across this article earlier in May and noted that someone had "dumped" an entire uncredited article into the main body of text. I placed a query into the discussion page but no one seemed to have noticed till today. I think the whole thing may belong to the author of the piece at least that is what is claimed by an anonymous user with the 58.160.112.238 IP address. What say you? Time to expunge the offending copyedit mess? IMHO Bzuk 01:50, 7 June 2007 (UTC).

Cruise Speed (Commercial Jets)
When browsing I noticed that the Cruise speed was given only in Mach number on some articles, where as in other articles the Cruise speed was given in Mach number and mph/kph. This has created some discussion - I would like to get a consensus on which is the prefered format. I would argue that the Cruise Speed should only be given as Mach number. My argument is twofold. Firstly most standard industry documentation gives Cruise Speeds in Mach number. Secondly there is no consitent way to convert Mach Number to a velocity. As I'm sure you are aware the speed of sound (Mach 1.0) depends on a number of factors (temperature, pressure altitude, air density etc..) For example (discounting air density/pressure altitude) at 0°C the speed of sound is about 740 mph (making Mach 0.85 equal to 630mph) where as a temperature of -50°C (not uncommon at FL400) the speed of sound is only 670 mph (making mach .85 = 570 mph) This gets further complicated when you consider pressure & density, When considering this with respect to an aircraft there are other things to consider, for example wind speed, this then brings the question do the speeds refer to Ground Speed, Airspeed (TAS or IAS). Hence the reason jet aircraft crusing speeds are normally given in Mach Number. The litereture that does give speeds in mph/kph is usually the Janet & John bit (i.e. for those who have no concept of the speed of sound). Which is the prefered method of listing cruise speed? -- Rehnn83 Talk 07:58, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * As an encyclopedia, aren't the "Janet and John" type part of our readership? I honestly don't see the problem including knots, mph, and km/h in the airliner spec tables, as we already use them for the most part in the specs templates that are used in most non-airliner articles. Simply including the alternate figures is not "dumbing down" the presentation in anyway, nor would it be likely to offend a more knowledgeable reader, unless of course the conversions are inaccurate! - BillCJ 16:32, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * One question: Aren't most Mach number cruise speeds for atlitude anyway? And don't airliners cruising at say 12,999 ft go slower than they would at 40,000, meaning that the Mach number at that altitude is even lower? So since the Mach number were using is going to be for altitude anyway, what's the problem listing the actual speeds? - BillCJ 16:32, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I strongly disagree with the concept of mach numbers only. First, as to the comment "most standard industry documentation gives Cruise Speeds in Mach number," maybe that's true in the AFM (though I bet VNE is given in knots, or at least there's a conversion chart - I'll have to dig into my DC-10 AFM - but in general literature, knots is included. For example, this Boeing page that's aimed at the general reader (which, BTW, doesn't even include the mach number), the exact target we should be aiming our articles at. We don't just write for the 10,000 hour ATP! Second, what's the point of being so limited? You talk about the difficulties of converting from mach to velocity, but that shouldn't be an issue, if you're using proper sources, which will provide such information. C'mon, folks, the whole point of doing this project is to provide valuable information in an encyclopedic format...and such speed information is just the kind of thing we're supposed to include.  AK Radecki Speaketh  16:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It seems the manufacturers didn't provide Mach values on older planes, like 20+ yrs, e.g DC-10. It's helpful to have the speeds listed for comparisons.  There's no problem for us to provide conversions and extra data. -Fnlayson 17:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * As the Consensous (spelling???) seems to be to include mph/kph then I can't disagree. My only argument would be to make sure the conversion from Mach number to velocity is done in a standard mannor (e.g. in a standard atmposhpere). -- Rehnn83 Talk 09:21, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Statute vs. nautical miles
There's a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aircraft/Units on whether statute or nautical miles (mph v. kts, etc.) should be used as the standard Imperial units for aviation related pages. - BillCJ 01:50, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * In my opinion I would use standard aviation units first and then SI units second. E.g. Plane X has a cruise ceiling of 40,000ft (12,000m) (I know Russia and soem parts of Chine use a metric levl system - but this is the exception rather than the norm). Or where there are three are more commoon measures in use (e.g. Speed kts/kph/mph) I would list the aviation standard first then the conversions (in paranthesis) e.g. Plane Y has a very low take-off speed 45 kts (83kph, 52mph). Just my two pence. -- Rehnn83 Talk 09:29, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I would agree, using a bit of OR as justification: I've worked on hundreds of aircraft over the years (and on every type out there except for blimps and hot air baloons), and every single one, no matter what nation of origin, had airspeed indicators in knots. Knots is the standard of aviation, thus should be the preferred usage here, with other units in parenthases, so that folks not familiar with kts can get a sense in their own frame of reference.  AK Radecki Speaketh  18:17, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem with knots is that Airspeed Indicators stayed with "miles per hour" until the 1960s. Some aircraft (Grumman Traveller, for example) use "mph" until the very end of production in the late 1970's.  When listing specs for older aircraft, the AI will almost always be in "mph" Hoserjoe 07:44, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

AfD
There are currently two aircraft-related AfD nominations, in case anyone's interested in weighing in: N396JS and N135CR --Rlandmann 22:05, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * N202LF is a similar page that's not been nominated as yet. - BillCJ 22:49, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Done, in case anyone wants to put their endorsements in on that discussion. I've also left a note at the contributor's page, since he's a newbi, trying to explain why this all his happening. AK Radecki Speaketh  18:36, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Probably another one: Eagle III --Denniss 23:54, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * While I would respect the decision if someone sends this one to AfD, I do tend to disagree. While the individual helicopters aren't notable, the program could be considered so, and given the kind of news coverage medevac programs garner, references would probably be possible to come up with. FWIW, we have other precedent, ARCH Air Medical Service.  AK Radecki Speaketh  18:40, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * This one might be salvageable if we can find third-party verifiable sources, and we could list the helicopters here, and include some of the legally-usable pics. Alan, you think it's salvagleable? (Written before Alan's comments were posted!) - BillCJ 18:50, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. The user has uploaded some good pics, but they aren't tagged properly. If he took them, or they are otherwise leagally usable, they need to be tagged. I don't know enough about uploading the pics to help a novice, but if someone could contact him and clarify the status of the pice, that would be good. - BillCJ 00:08, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

The N202LF content was moved to 2006 Eagle III accident, cleaned-up, and referenced. While I agree that most individual aircraft tail numbers cannot generate useful articles, there may still be some useful content in the ones that are out there, and you should proceed carefully before deleting. The first option is improving the article, next is merging the verifiable content, and deletion is last. Dhaluza 10:50, 17 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Just out of interest I have just read 2006 Eagle III accident and cant find anything in it that makes it notable - aircraft goes up on a non-operational test flight - aircraft crashes ! Can anybody please explain why it is not an AfD candidate, or is somebody going to merge it into Eagle III, thanks. MilborneOne 11:17, 17 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, now a dozen references over a period of time, with multiple sources, including multiple bylines. Notability is not about some arbitrary standard of sensationalism, it's about whether there is sufficient source material to write a complete article. Besides that, the accident has several unique human-interest angles which make it an interesting story, beyond the mechanics of the accident sequence. As discussed on the AfD page, it is not a good merge candidate, because the accident details would overwhelm the Eagle III article and the result would not be balanced. Dhaluza 13:21, 17 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I have read the AfD (which was for the airframe not the accident!) had another look cant find anything notable about it - just another sad but fatal accident, which is well reported in the local press. If it was a commercial operator it would not meet any of the guidelines to notability. Dont agree that just because there is a lot of source material then there should be an article. You mention unique human-interest, which appears to be second-hand guess work that he missed some buildings on purpose - nice Journalism but as he crashed only 200yds from where he took-of I suspect he did not have many choices and had other things to worry about it. Sorry to say I am not convinced that this is notable outside of Green Bay. MilborneOne 13:47, 17 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It clearly does meet WP:N, so regardless of what type of article it is, Notability is not an issue. Your arm chair analysis is only your somewhat informed opinion, and the article presents the more informed opinion of someone more qualified to render one. As for the human interest, you obviously missed: Air ambulance crashes at headquarters; rescue personnel accustomed to scooping up the broken bodies of strangers now must do the grim task on one of their own, vainly performing CPR in the ambulance on the way to the hospital with a full police escort typical of a police officer shot in the line of duty (and the pilot is honored after death in the same way). That's not something that happens every day. Dhaluza 12:22, 18 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Still do not agree that it is notable, an opinion I am allowed to have, but as you are now starting to make personal remarks I will not persue the point at the moment. Everybody is equal on Wikipedia, nobody is more qualified than anybody else, please remember WP:AGF. Interesting to note that since my original comment the article has been edited 22 time and has been improved, with some points clarifed. MilborneOne 21:35, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Reflist changes
User:Java7837‎ has been unilaterally changing Reflist tags to the '. For example the SR-71 even gets a hit on our own SR-71 page. The point about the readership is of course precisely why an encyclopedia should get the technicalities right - its very purpose is to explain these things. -- Steelpillow 19:00, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

F-22/Typhoon fan-boy war
I'd like to formally request that the F-22 Raptor and Eurofighter Typhoon pages be fully protected so that the experienced editors here can try to work on a solution to the ongoing edit disputes. This fan-boy edit war has gone on for several weeks now, and shows no sign of letting up. Most of the participants in the daily reverts (save a few hot-headed regulars such as myself) are IPs or new users. I think it's time the "grown-ups" settle this. - BillCJ 06:44, 27 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Support BillCJs request - it is all getting a bit silly. MilborneOne 11:37, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Somebody needs to protect these pages for a few days. This is getting ridiculous, none of the edits is even trying to be constructive. --McSly 22:56, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * New trick is randomly entering arguments at the top of the page and in the middle of previous discussions which makes it even more nonsense on the talk page. Can somebody archive the talkpage block the IP users and we can start again with improving the article.MilborneOne 11:29, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Support BillCJs request - I'm beginning to think any article with a B class or greater rating should be locked from anon editing. And I'm a new guy. --Colputt 00:09, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I haven't yet made up my mind on Bill's request, but if it's enacted, it needs to cover the 4th generation jet fighter article as well. I'm finding it's best to doublecheck all IPs' posts there as the reasons given in the edit tags often do not reflect what's actually being done in the edits. Askari Mark (Talk) 02:21, 29 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Please notice this intelligent edit summary? How long does this silliness have to go on? - BillCJ 03:26, 29 September 2007 (UTC)


 * How long? Oh, as long as Wikipedia allows unregistered editors to edit ... and then only by editors who do register. Sigh. My only reservation against protection is that there are some IPs who are actually making constructive contributions (including reverting the bad ones); seems a shame to punish them along with the trolls. Askari Mark (Talk) 04:07, 29 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, it is a shame, but I'm not proposing permanent protectionk, just one long enough for the serious editors to work out a solution. The edit warriors are doing most of their "discussions" in edit summaries right now. Hopefully a lockdown will encourage them to use the talk page more constructively, and if not, at least they won't be able to revert the good changes for a time. - BillCJ 04:20, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

After looking over the edit histories, it seems to me that vast majority of the problems are indeed IPs...actually, I found almost no users outside the WP:AIR cabal (wow...we're a cabal now!). So, I've semi-protected the pages for 1 week. If edit/fanboy warring breaks out with registered users, I'd be willing to do a short-term full protect, but lets see if the Project guys can't get this straigtened out...at least this way, ya'll can still actually edit the article and get it cleaned up. Some detailed talk on the appropriate talk pages about proposals, section-by-section, what's wrong and what should be fixed, just for the record. Have fun storming the castle!  AK Radecki Speaketh  04:37, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Great. The talk pages are still open (doubt they can be protected), much better! Thanks Alan!  -Fnlayson 04:43, 29 September 2007 (UTC)


 * NP...Keep an eye out for User:Wikzilla...he dropped a hot-headed response on my talk page, threatened sockpuppetry, vandalized my user page and got himself a 48 hour block. He's been making questionable edits to the affected pages, but I'm leaving fixing the content up to you folks...that way I won't compromise my ability to work administratively if the need arises.  AK Radecki Speaketh  03:59, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * User:Kitplane01 is still at the edit-warring, adding the disputed info again. Can something be done? Thanks. - BillCJ 06:33, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I need a favor from you guys...Wikzilla turned out to be a somewhat prolific sockpuppeteer, and has now been blocked indef. However, he's decided that his purpose in life is to bombard my talk page with messages while IP hopping (Bill...you know what that's like, eh?). I'm protecting my user page for now, but I really have to leave my talk page open. It's about bed-time here in SoCal, and I'll be working on the helo in the morning, so if ya'll would do me the favor of reverting any IP crap that shows up on my talk page, I'd be much obliged.  AK Radecki Speaketh  04:57, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

List of what you can put on popular culture
List of what you can put on aircraft in popular culture. Even Transformers is a demonstration. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.234.144.73 (talk) 05:59, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

National Flags and Multinational Consortia
A recurring problem where flags are being used to indicate or highlight nationality occurs whenever a multinational consortium designs, develops and coproduces an aircraft. A good case in point is with Eurofighter, for which some editors are choosing to use the EU flag. Since Eurofighter GmbH is not an "EU" entity, per se, I believe this is an improper approach. However, the only other obvious options are to use the flags of all the consortium members (in this case four) – which really clutters up vertical lists and tables (especially when the country names are included) – or to leave the entry without a flag at all (only a blank field or the notation "N/A"). Any thoughts on what the best approach might be? Askari Mark (Talk) 23:02, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I support adding the 4 flags rather than using EU flag . Estonia is an EU member, Adding the EU flag means Estonia is an Air crafts manufacturer. And this is false. Ammar  (Talk - Don't Talk) 07:11, 24 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that the EU flag is not appropriate. I dont like adding lots of flags - we should use the flag of the country where the aircraft is built and flown from. The Saudi typhoons will come from the UK production line. Have the same problems with Airbus the A319 for example is German and the A340 is French. With Eurocopter the EC155 is German but the EC725 is French. Sites like the UK Civil Aviation Authority aircraft register use this convention as the country of origin. MilborneOne 10:59, 24 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The problem is, if you add only one flag, editors will keep adding the others (or substitute the EU flag in this instance). In most cases, the flag tends to be "tied" to the company, rather than the airplane. Occasionally there are also multiple production lines involved; Egyptian F-16s, for instance, came from both US and Turkish lines (and the early EPG deliveries are even more complex). Askari Mark (Talk) 17:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Askari Mark is right, if we add only one flag we will never stop the random editors from keepin adding other flags . But whats wrong with adding 4 flags anyways ? there is room enough in the table. Ammar  (Talk - Don't Talk) 17:57, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I've added all the Eurofighter consortium members' national flags on the Royal Saudi Air Force page. Editors are encouraged to see what it looks like and think about what might serve best: 1) No flag(s), just a link to company; or 2) all the member companies' national flags. I've listed them by country alphabetically, but an acceptable alternative would be to list them in order of descending ownership share (although, if I recall correctly, two of them may have the same share). Askari Mark (Talk) 01:44, 2 October 2007 (UTC)


 * In that table on the article, the Column's name is Origin . That means GmbH or BAE systems are not the correct data type for this column's fields . Ammar  (Talk - Don't Talk) 17:18, 2 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Uh, the manufacturer is already identified with the model in the Aircraft column there. Why repeat the manufacturer in another column?  If it is a problem, just remove the Origin column. Its benefit is marginal, imo. -Fnlayson 17:27, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Proposed deletions

 * --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me ) 13:36, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me ) 13:36, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Aircraft dope
It seems to me that the Aircraft dope page could be expanded into something worth keeping. For example a bit of history, from the doped linen of the WWI era to modern synthetic fabrics. Then, there is the contrast between the usual technique of colouring the dope vs. the German use of printed fabrics in WWI. Room for a bit more on compositions and methods of application, too. The snippet on the LZ 129 Hindenburg page about loading it with graphite also bears reference. I'd suggest re-identifying it as a stub. Any more opinions? -- Steelpillow 20:33, 2 October 2007 (UTC)


 * You can add a hold-on tag, and then the discussion will go to AFD. That will give time to discuss what can be done, and improve the article in the meantime. I don't know righyt off, but is there another topic this could be merged into, or even covered elsewhere already, perhaps in more detail? - BillCJ 23:15, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * "Hold-on" is meant for speedy-deletion candidates. In the case of PROD-candidates, just remove the PROD tag and provide a reason in the edit summary (and the talk page if you feel diligent).  An AFD action would only ensue if someone still felt it should be deleted and felt strong enough about it to initiate the AFD action. --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me ) 00:24, 3 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Oops, I mixed the two up. Thanks! - BillCJ 00:54, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Clean-up help request
I just ran across the Jet airliner page, and it is a mess: No sources whatsoever, yet it reads as a well-written, though very biased in places, article in certain parts, leading me to believe it's based on another article from somewhere else. It's been around for about 4 years, but had no project tag at all. I've done alot of clean-up, but more eyes and heads would be useful. Feel free to check the previous versions to see what I deleted, and restore anything you believe is worth keeping if you can source it. Thanks. - BillCJ 05:48, 2 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The history bit is could make a good article but the more modern bits probably need some work, the language is a bit wierd. Jet airliner is not a common phrase but would be alright for describing the history, never heard the term Jetliner used (must be a north-americanism).MilborneOne 11:38, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Probably. Jetliner is just a shortened form of the other.  Both are not common now with almost all airliners are jets, except for regional turboprops. -Fnlayson 13:45, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I just read the article, it reads like someone "cribbing" from another source. BTW, MilborneOne, "jetliner" came from the Avro Jetliner but was commonly applied to the de Havilland Comet in its early years, as well as other jet airliners. The term fell out of favour later but its origins were indeed, from North America. FWIW Bzuk 13:52, 2 October 2007 (UTC).


 * Not sure about the cribbing, but I suspect that the "period jet-set" bit is absolute tosh. I googled "747 jet airliner" and got "about 414,000" hits, so the term evidently is still in common use and the bit about it not applying to modern widebodies is, er, wide of the mark (grin). I'd say put down those scalpels and grab your chainsaws. --- Steelpillow 20:47, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The discussion was about the term "jetliner" not necessarily "jet airliner" but surprisingly, the term is still in common usage if not in use by the aviation community. A google search I did on "jetliner" today had 803,000 hits! FWIW Bzuk 22:33, 2 October 2007 (UTC).

Engine article guideline?
I know what to do for an aircraft page, but what is the guideline for an engine article? What is a good example of an engine article? Rolls-Royce Model 250 needs some help. --Born2flie 23:44, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I would think that the same basic outline would also apply: Introductory paragraph, Infobox, Design and development, Operational history, Variants, Operators, Specifications. I like the Rolls-Royce Merlin as an example. FWIW Bzuk 23:55, 7 October 2007 (UTC).

Boeing 747 up for GA
Boeing 747 article is up for Good Article review now. Needs some work to address review comments. I could use some help crafting a Design section. I think a lot of the info is in the article, but various places. Thanks. -Fnlayson 16:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * First impression- it looks very good, accurate, well-referenced and a large amount of graphic and textual information. The citations are a bit "wonky" and the references were all wrong. I fixed the format, but do you want me to go further? FWIW Bzuk 17:21, 12 October 2007 (UTC).
 * Sure, do what you can. Any help is appreciated.  Only book titles are italized in references, right?  And article titles are in quotes.  I started removing the excess italics. -Fnlayson 17:25, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I added a Design section mainly on the basic aspects and safety features. -Fnlayson 21:55, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah, it failed GA review. It'd better than it was. Also, a user added a fact tag for it being known by the "Jumbo Jet" nickname. -Fnlayson 00:36, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Bede BD-5
This article needs some attention as it appears to be the rubber ball between some editors' feuding over WP:SPAM claims. Need some other people's opinions. Maury and Alan have already tried to help the situation but have run into a tagteam from the "spam cops." FWIW Bzuk 17:12, 12 October 2007 (UTC).

Allison T40
Does anyone have any sources they could add to the Allison T40 article? It was created in May 2007 by a user who has not edited in over 4 weeks. It is an engine that is worth covering, and I'd hate to see it deleted just because it has no sources. Also, I am considering moving the page to Allison T38, and expanding it to cover that engine. Given that the T40 is basiacally two T38s in a twin-pack (much like the PT6T), I think this is the better name. We'd need some good sourced info on the T38 before moving it tho. Thanks. - BillCJ 23:51, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Lockheed XF-104
Hi guys, I have created a new article on the Lockheed XF-104 if you would like to stop by and fix/add things, cheers Nimbus227 00:56, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * A bit of a problem here- it is an good article, well written and illustrated with a suitable reference list but here are the issues:


 * 1) It is not adequately referenced in that I mean there are no citations provided.
 * 2) It is not linked to the main F-104 article; and
 * 3) I am not sure why there is so much detail on what was essentially the prototype aircraft? FWIW Bzuk 02:57, 14 October 2007 (UTC).

Thank you for your constructive comments.

Thanks Nimbus227 12:32, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) The references are there, I just need to learn how to link the ref tags, this is my first article so forgive me if I make the odd mistake.
 * 2) It was originally linked to the main F-104 article in two places, Bill CJ has rightly added more and cleaned the article up generally.
 * 3) I looked at the other 'XF' articles to gauge the right length, some of them are longer and list survivors etc. I would hope that a page of detail on the birth of a fairly significant aircraft design is not excessive.
 * 4) It really needs a three view of the type (not the main variant) if anyone can find one.
 * A first article- are you kidding- it was great and the subtle changes now incorporated have made it even stronger. FWIW Bzuk 13:05, 14 October 2007 (UTC).


 * Thanks and thanks for the three view drawing. Lockheed used to have a historic photo archive on their website but seem to have only the more modern aircraft now, I have a photo of the wooden mock up which would be nice to post if I could get the proper clearance. Cheers Nimbus227 15:34, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

MILHIST MOS
MILHIST has put together a MILHIST MOS that they are taking comments on. I think WPAIR, and perhaps even WPAVIATION, should take a look at this. Perhaps we can join/adopt the MOS, if it can work for us as-is, or with a few adjustments. If it needs more changes to suit us, perhaps we can use it to dorm our own MOS. SOme of what the MILHIST MOS covers is already in our Page content guidelines, but there are some areas we haven't dealt with yet, such as Notability (tho som guidelines for this have been proposed). Any comments?
 * That'd be something good to have. At least outline the basics.  Copy their pop culture requirements to cover commercial only aircraft.  Include guidelines for notability (does this model/variant get its own article?). -Fnlayson 18:14, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Found page
I just ran across this article, List of people who have died in incidents involving DC-3 aircraft. It needs alot of help, esp refernecing, and might be better off merged with another page (possibly a list of DC-3 incidents). - BillCJ 16:42, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it'd be best to merge it with DC-3 incidents article. But I'm not finding one right now. -Fnlayson 17:03, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Tailless references
OK I grabbed a few books more or less at random, let's see what they have:


 * Barrie Hygate, British experimental jet aircraft, Argus Books (1990).
 * Page 11, De Havilland 108: "Originally planned as a half-scale model of the proposed DH.106 airliner, which ... was of tail-less layout".


 * Lloyd S. Jones, U.S. Fighters, Aero Pub. (1975).
 * Page 142, Northrop XP-56 Black Bullet: "The third radical design resulting from the Army's proposal R-40C was Northrop's N2B tail-less fighter".
 * Page 317, Douglas F-6 Skyray: "All the horizontal flying controls were attached to the wing trailing edge, classifying the Skyray as 'tailless'."


 * A. H. Lukins, The book of Westland aircraft, Harborough (date not recorded).
 * Page 41, Pterodactyl 1A and 1B: "TYPE&mdash;Two-seat sude-by-side tailless 'pusher' monoplane".

So there we have it - "tailless" and "tail-less" used interchangeably, even within the same book, but definitely used in the sense defined on Tailless aircraft.

Sorry to take so long about it. -- Steelpillow 17:44, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * What about the XP-55 Accender and the Do335 Arrow or the Me163 KometDavegnz (talk) 16:15, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Formal AFD notice
Articles for deletion/Lockheed XF-104 - BillCJ 20:02, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Articles for deletion/B-52 Stratofortress trivia (2nd nomination) - It's back!! (Like we new it would be. - BillCJ 00:55, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

A proposed generic structure for "XYZ Air Force" articles
Your comments are appreciated on this proposal. Askari Mark (Talk) 20:18, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Formal TFD notice
Template:Aircontent is up for deletion at Templates for deletion/Log/2007 October 21 fir "violoting MOS". Why is it that these deletionists feel they never have to discuss anything? - BillCJ 02:33, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Someone complained about that template's See also field violating the MoS or Layout guide here before. -Fnlayson 03:57, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
 * As I mentioned in my comments to the TfD, I can't see the problem, and just tested it successfully. Since the template is a part of the Project, it sure would have been nice for the nom to discuss things here first. Oh, well.  AK Radecki Speaketh  05:17, 21 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Now that the TFD has been closed, I do think it worth discussing the proposal by McSly (I think) to split the template in two. Basically, this would entail removing the Aviation lists navbox portion of the aircontent template. We could then place the aircontent template minus navbox in the WP:MOS-recommended position just above the references, and have the Aviation lists just above the cats and below the ELs, and at the bottom of the navbox stack (usually the company boxes). Personally, I prefer the current position of the combined aircontent template, as I have used it for over a year now in that position. However, this issue will probably continue to crop up every few months, as so perhaps at least discussing a change is warranted. Also, I'd prefer to se the "See also" section under the References, since to me the references are part of the text. In fact, I may even propose doing that at WP:MOS if we decide to move the Related contents section up. - BillCJ 08:12, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds like the plan there. Removing the Aviation Navbox is the easy place to start. -Fnlayson 17:26, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. However, I am a bit disappointed to see that [ this kind of behaviour] appears, since it implies that the project owns the articles.  The project guidelines are not set in stone indefinitely, and from the comments at the TFD, it seems like this project's guidelines are set in stone while the MOS is not.  Technically, though, nothing is, but I'm just saying that the MOS has a lot more community support than these guidelines do, and it is this project that is at fault for not following the bigger guideline.  I have no objections to proposing a change on WT:MOS; just prepare yourselves for some mixed comments and criticism. :-)  O 2 (息 • 吹) 02:26, 22 October 2007 (GMT)


 * As you did not state the above reasons for your change, I reverted them. I thought they were the first of a campaign of yours to unilaterally begin changing aircraft article pages to your own preferences. I was wrong. Hopefully next time, you'll make a better effort to identify tests and examples as such, and avoid further misunderstanding as such. As far as I know, most of the Project guidelines were written before (although many editors use caps for emphasis, as edit summaries allow no other format style, I'll use italics since you are incapable of dicerning the use of caps for Shouting or emphasis) the MOS guidelines were put in place. Up to this point, no one has made any serious proposals to change them to match the MOS, as most editors have resected the Projects' rights to do things a little differently. The way to change guidelines on Wikipedia is to engage in discussion with the concerned project, and try to gain a consensus to adopt the project-wide standards. It's not about things being set in stone, but following the proscribed methods that cause the least disruption. Filing deletions against project templates is certainly disruptive, and will hardly make the rest of your arguments any more appealing. So please, tone down the attitude, and you might just get a fair hearing here. - BillCJ 02:56, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * That comment does not AGF. To you it might be disruptive, but I implore you to read WP:CCC, since it does not appear that you are open to any changes.  O 2 (息 • 吹) 03:22, 22 October 2007 (GMT)


 * LOLOL. Did you ever read my lengthy discussion on proposals before you began throwing your bombs at me here? My suggestions stand, and if you would like to discuss them, you are welcome to do so. I don't have to support changes to discuss them, and I have a long record in the project of supporting decisions I disagree with. Now, let's try to discuss the issues here from this point on, and allow others to participate, and hopefully come to some kind of concensus. That is how Concensus changes on Wikipedia. - BillCJ 03:37, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Back to the split issue. The current situation, with the SA section in a variant (relative to the MOS) position as a solution to having information in two places. Links to relavent lists appeared in the SA section which occurred higher in the article, then again in the nav boxes at the very end. Common sense then broke out and the idea was hit upon to move the SA section so that the nav boxes are an extension of the SA section. Because it's proper to have the nav boxes at the bottom of the article, the SA section was necessarily moved there. Now, to this proposal. Yes, we can split the template in two, but I'm not sure what that's really going to accomplish. Are you also suggesting that the SA section be moved back to its MOS-specified location above the refs? That will then again split the information apart. I personally favor leaving the SA at the end, and having the nav boxes as an extension of that section. If this location situation is kept, I'm not sure I understand what the point of splitting the template is. Some further explanation by the proposer as to the benefits would be appreciated. Oh, and one side comment regarding the 787 article. The point of having a MOS, or Project layout guidelines, for that matter, is so that there can be a standard of consistency. If all the thousands of aircraft articles are formatted per the project guidelines, then we do have consistency. For one editor to come along and change that, ie make it inconsistent with the rest of its kind of articles, and in the name of "consistency" to boot, how has the project been helped? This was my thinking in supporting Bill's reversion to O's unilateral layout change.  AK Radecki Speaketh  04:17, 22 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I should have brought this up last night, after seeing O's explanation of his 787 changes on the TFD page, but did not get to it by the time I went to bed (5AM), and forgot today: On the layout change in the 787 article, it might be better to do this on a sandbox-type page, so that a regular article is not disrupted, so to speak. Many of the regulars use userspace sandboxes, and can easily set one up to illustrate desired changes here. - BillCJ 04:39, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't see what the problem is, the MOS' Guide to Layout clearly states that the order of the standard appendices can be manipulated. Within that guideline, the project has determined to standardize an order within its own guidelines. --Born2flie 05:40, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Then, there is this interesting little discussion involving WP:MOSHEAD. --Born2flie 05:44, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

English/American spellings etc.
This is probably not a new subject but we were having a light hearted discussion in Talk:Lockheed XF-104 as I started the article in British English and discovered that the apparent convention is to use the form of English of the country that the aircraft belongs to, e.g. US in the case of the F-104. It has been suggested that an icon or template (perhaps one exists) be placed on the talk page to denote which form of English will be used throughout the article. Perhaps others would like to comment or advise on this idea and clarify the convention at the same time. Cheers Nimbus227 23:39, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * That was not just for this particular article BTW but intended for future articles or even to be applied to existing articles where there could be some 'transatlantic spelling' inconsistences going on. Nimbus227 23:43, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is a WP:Aircraft convention; articles on aircraft from non-English-speaking nations follow the "first author" rule. This actually follows from the standard WP:MOS which prefers the "native English" of the subject article, if there is one. Cheers, Askari Mark (Talk) 03:52, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The main thing here is about adding a tag or template to indicate spelling type (US, British or Canadian) used. Do you think this is a good idea or not?  -Fnlayson 04:44, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd support a template header to go at/near the top of the talk page with the other templates. It could be a simple text template statin: "This article is written in (parameter) English. Please try to conform to this variant's spelling and grammar." THere could be a simple parameter to insert a specifed country into the template. Alternativley, we could add a few icons/graphics, or even mroe text such as "If you are not familiar with the variant's grammar and spelinng rules, do the best you can, but indicate in your edit summary that you need help in that area." I am sure someone could come up with flags that are displayed for each country when it's selected, but right now I think we ought to just come up with a simple, functional template we can use right way, and then discuss changes and tweaks later. PS, I have no clue how to write the program at this point, but could adapt an existing one if it had similar parameters. - BillCJ 05:27, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Help
I need help with sourcing this image which is from the Israeli Air Force site —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gilisa (talk • contribs) 05:17, 24 October 2007


 * The IAF website the picture is from has the following license:
 * Doesn't look like you'll be able to use the pic unless the IDF and Department of Security release it into the public domain. --Born2flie 15:17, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, this picture record one of the Lavi test flights, I assume that I can use the Israel Aerospace Industries pictures-or that it the same problems as the IAF one's?--Gilisa 15:50, 24 October 2007 (UTC)--
 * You can't assume anything, it is the user's responsibility to research the license of images. I just went and checked what kind of license IAI puts on their website, and it says, "No content from this Website may be copied, reproduced, republished, modified, uploaded, posted, transmitted, or distributed in any way." So unless you get the image from a different IAI source, and that source has a very specific license that allows it to be used, you're pretty much out of luck. Sorry.  AK Radecki Speaketh  15:58, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

New article, Lockheed NF-104A
Here is another F-104 related article for you guys to look at, hopefully it will not get nominated for AFD like the last one. It could use a three view of the type, cheers. Nimbus227 19:07, 27 October 2007 (UTC)