Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anime and manga/Archive 15

Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu character list problems
I feel it should be rewritten. It makes a lot of incorrect inferences/assumptions about the characters' romantic relations. I have personally read the first four novels in Japanese, so it bothered me to see things blatantly said like "Mikuru tries to supress her crush for Kyon" and "Kyon/Haruhi relationship". These things are not even clear/apparent four volumes into the series, so they should not be listed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Puxank (talk • contribs)
 * Hi! I don't know anything about this series, but please sign your posts. --Masamage 03:07, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, this should probably be discussed on the talk page for the series in question. Doceirias 03:16, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * All that I can really point you do in handling this is to point to WP:NOR and WP:WAF. In other words, fan speculation about relationships do not belong on an article. Also, articles about fiction should be written from an out-of-universe perspective. --Farix (Talk) 03:39, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
 * [[Image:Scissor-for-paper.jpg|100px]] Go for it!  Take the scissors to the cruft!  --Kunzite 03:57, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Performed article split on the Character List. Still contains fancruft, needs clean-up, etc. With a bit of re-organization, it should be easier to remove/add material. KyuuA4

Battle of the planets/starwars
Somebody's edited one of the Anime pages to remove a sentence saying that Battle of the planets was made changed to be more space orientated when it was brought to the US as a result of the popularity of Star Wars.

This is true, but I don't have a linkable source to back it up. Does anybody else have one?

perfectblue 11:32, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

PGSM images
Some IP user just went through and tagged a whole bunch of Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon images as being replaceable with freely available images. His contribs are here. Since it is definitely not true that those could be replaced, do we really have to go through all the process of responding to his templates, or can we just revert it all? (And yes, most of those images need rationales. That's a different problem that we can deal with pretty easily.) --Masamage 20:04, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * WOW thats alot of damage! ill see what i can do but well im not really sure on the fixing pictures stuff Maverick423 20:26, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * im sorry i dont know how to fix it =( i asked for help from a admin so hopefully we can get this fixed Maverick423 20:43, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Nah, it won't be too bad once we decide which course of action to take. I can fix it all myself, I'm just not sure which way would be best. --Masamage 20:49, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Soooo....anyone have any advice? --Masamage 17:47, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Considering it's anon and not an established user who tags images regularly doing this, I'm guessing it's someone messing around with the images. Just tag it with the template that they aren't in violation of the fair use rules and I'm sure the admins that will check out the tags will sort it out. NeoChaosX (talk, walk) 19:12, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay. I snagged most of them, mainly the ones I recognized. I'm not sure about a few of the promo shots of real actors, though, because I don't know how those rules work. Could someone take a look? (They still have 'top' next to them in the guy's contribs). --Masamage 19:27, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

CLAMP article requested move back to CLAMP
Since this article is within the scope of this WikiProject, interested parties may wish to weigh in at Talk:Clamp (manga artists). —pfahlstrom 22:58, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Help in fixing You're Under Arrest
I'm starting to put the You're Under Arrest section under cleanup. Can anyone step in and help me here? Thanks. Ominae 03:01, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

the is a good thing for anime manga nicholas heffnernicholas heffner 18:11, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Infobox requests
Hi, since we are doing a huge infobox round in WP Films and we sometimes find animangas with a Film infobox request, I'll drop here titles I find with missing animanga infobox and tell others to list here further requests. If you have a request template for it, please let me know. Hoverfish Talk 18:15, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Red Shadow
 * I think our project has been pretty good at making sure articles have their infoboxes. There are a couple of messy stubs here and there that don't though. A bigger project is infoboxes that have stuff for only the anime (and not for the original manga or whatever). Also, apparently Red Shadow (I renamed it to Akakage since the series doesn't appear to have a English license) is actually on a character, so I'm not quite sure if it needs the infoboxes or not. At the moment, it probably does, since it's seems to be trying to act as the main article for all of his appearances.--SeizureDog 07:07, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Clarification of Notability of Individual Episodes of Anime
According to what I read in WP:N, individual eps of TV drama is not notable. Does that mean, individual eps of anime is also non-notable (unless there are other reasons)? And, as for current established individual ep articles, is it wise of have a blanket AfD for individual anime eps? --Samuel CurtisShinichian-Hirokian-- TALK · CONTRIBS 15:36, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Blanket AfD's suck. Period. Kyaa the Catlord 17:04, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * My main question is whether articles for individual articles are automatically non-notable unless proven otherwise. --Samuel CurtisShinichian-Hirokian-- TALK · CONTRIBS 17:20, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * No, episodes are for the most part not-notable and probably should be included in a list. Blanket AfD's still suck. Kyaa the Catlord 17:24, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Over at WikiProject Sailor Moon we have found ourselves dealing with some 49 (out of 200) episode summaries that were written ages before our project started. The tack we've been taking so far has been to clean them up and make them high quality. Should we be deleting them instead? --Masamage 18:02, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Export em to the Wikimoon [www.wikimoon.org], then merge them into a list most likely. Kyaa the Catlord 18:07, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * That's against Wikipedia's GFDL license. Wikimoon's license is incompatible. --Kunzite
 * That's a shame. Wikimoon's episode entries are fabulous. Kyaa the Catlord 19:08, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * We do have a List of Sailor Moon episodes. --Masamage 20:52, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Basically, here's the deal. If it looks like we'll never be able to have anything but a plot summary for these individual episode articles, then they need to be deleted. South Park can be allowed to have its episode articles because it's been shown that they're able to get production details and information on reception for some of them, see "Make Love, Not Warcraft". There may be a case for Sailor Moon episode articles being kept, since the changes being made to the dub versions are pretty notable, but that information might could be all merged into its own article and not all of the episodes were changed, so there's a bit of a pickle. However, since we're very unlikely to get anywhere beyond a plot summary for most anime episodes, most should probably be deleted. I'm not quite sure on my opinion on if series heavy on cultural references have a case for needing articles to explain that stuff though (Genshiken would be one of those if it had episode articles).--SeizureDog 06:59, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It may be more prudent to redirect to a media/episode list before going to deletion. If the articles get restored, then put them up for discussion.    --Kunzite 07:02, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Is it feasible to merge all those articles though? The lists of media may violate WP:NOT #7 anyway. --Squilibob 10:57, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Previous attempts to delete lists of media per WP:NOT #7 have failed miserably. But the other information provided by the lists means that the lists isn't solely a summary of that work's plot, which is what WP:NOT prohibits. --Farix (Talk) 11:06, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if its different for anime episodes vs. normal television episodes, but a consensus has bee reached to keep and expand normal TV eps, not delete or merge. - Peregrine Fisher 16:02, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * We ended up redirecting all the Sailor Moon articles to a better list with screenshots and mini-summaries, mainly because most of them were deeply mediocre. Wikimoon has good ones, so now we just link over there. --Masamage 17:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Japanese text in English articles
About a month ago I was cleaning up Nagaru Tanigawa and took out the Japanese text, replacing it with romaji. Someone's just put it back, but I'm not sure what the project consensus is here; Japanese for the article header seems like a good idea, but for the title of every book an author has written seems like overkill to me. Do we have a guideline or policy on this? Doceirias 20:01, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I generally see both given. Usually through the utilization of nihongo to give uniform formatting. --tjstrf talk 20:05, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, as long as the book doesn't have an article itself, it's fine to include the kanji in the list of books. If an article exists for the book, then the kanji/kana should be in that article instead. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihon joe 20:18, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I added nihongo to the article and made some minor corrections. Btw, on ja.wiki there seems to be one more title for the Dengeki!! Aegis 5 series: "MOEOHセレクション 後藤なお画集 GALAXY'S CHILD" ISBN 4840234108. However, I can't translate it. --Εξαίρετος (msg) 20:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * That's an artbook, and probably shouldn't be on the writer's page. Doceirias 20:43, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Lists of fictional characters by series
Please comment in the discussion created at Wikipedia talk:Lists (stand-alone lists) as it concerns the naming of lists in Category:Anime and manga characters by series--SeizureDog 08:57, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Image copyright?
I've been working on an image that explains the uniforms used in the Sailor Moon series. We're not sure we're going to use it yet, but does anyone know whether I'm allowed to release that as my own creation? Are costume designs copyrighted? What if they're based on school uniforms? --Masamage 02:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I think it is copyright in the US but not in Japan. For example, people win cases in the US for using the likeness of another product. But in Japan, doujin artists make money off the likeness of another product. But I'm not qualified to give legal advice. --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 03:29, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Dojinshi generally are copyright breaches under Japanese law, but Japanese culture is different form American culture so the big publishers are often far more willing to tolerate them than an American publisher would be (US companies are particularly brutal about copyright, far more so than companies in most other countries) so long as they don't get too big for their boots. Dojinshi help to raise the profile of character and to keep audiences interested between the releases of official publications and even help to keep interest in the official publications going long after they have stopped printing new stories. They are also watched by companies as a potential source of new talent (more than one Dojin artist has gone on to make it big in the pro circuit, members of Clamp for example).

perfectblue 07:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I think that image is enough of your own creation to qualify under Creative Commons or a similar license. You should make sure the information in it, however, is backed up by information found on other reliable sites so it's not considered original research. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihon joe 04:29, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It is. ^_^ I'll include that all on the image page if I upload the thing. But I don't know much about liscenses; what would you suggest for something like this? CC? GNU? Both? I know the gist of each, but not the difference. And do free images of this sort get uploaded here or somewhere else? --Masamage 04:56, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

OKAAAAAY


 * 1) Because you've drawn the image yourself rather than clipped it from a magazine), you can include it as a self generated image, even though the subject itself is copyright, based on fair use.
 * 2) You don't need to register it as your own work in order to include it. It's an object example of a costume warn by a fictional character, which means that it is covered by fair use there too.

perfectblue 07:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Intensive Spellcheck
Are there any pages here that need extensive spell checks? If one does I will be happy to go through and correct them. trainra 07:59, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * If there was a list, someone probably already got to it. It'd probably be most worthwhile if you went to random articles and formatted them according to WP:MOS. --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 08:17, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * AutoWikiBrowser can pretty easily and quickly spell check if its needed. — Da rk •S hik ari [T] 10:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Not sure what, if any assistance you're using but you're doing a good job trainra. If I remember correctly, Rurouni Kenshin had a lot of spelling and grammar mistakes, though someone may have fixed that by now. --Squilibob 10:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Anime Review Show
There is an online TV show produced by 15 year established industry production company. I feel it should be listed as a source on the anime article. The name of the show is AnimeTV. I would like to cite it as a reference source for anime. --GroovyGal 14:31, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Please provide a link to the site. Also, what information are you wanting to use it to cite?--SeizureDog 04:59, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Based on his edit history, he appears to be just a spammer. --Farix (Talk) 14:32, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Huh? It just appears that he likes AnimeTV is all. He may have a personal investment in said site, but he doesn't seem like a spammer to me. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SeizureDog (talk • contribs) 14:42, 18 March 2007 (UTC).
 * The thing is that his edits have been solely about AnimeTV or promoting AnimeTV on Wikipedia. Whether he is directly connected or an overenthusiastic fan, it is still spamming. --Farix (Talk) 17:47, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It still seems a little rude to call him a spammer when he has so few edits. Hell, he's only "spammed" one other article that wasn't AnimeTV so far.--SeizureDog 19:27, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Help indentify these anime/manga references?
See this image. It shows the cast of Genshiken, and they appear to all be cosplaying. The problem is, I can't figure out as what. The only one I can figure out is Kuchiki as Lupin III but the rest I have no clue. The problem is that most of them look so damn normal. If Madarame hadn't been so completely out of character with his ghetto look, I probably wouldn't have even noticed. So anyways, a little help here?--SeizureDog 11:57, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, now that I stare at it, even the Lupin reference might be wrong. I thought that yellow purse was he's yellow tie, and Lupin doesn't seem to wear a hat ever. He's also, for some reason, wearing a scarf. Ugh, stupid thing. Still, the way Madarame is depicted makes me certain that it's a reference to something. I just have no idea what.--SeizureDog 12:02, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Could they be imitating styles rather than specific characters? Because I don't recognize them either. --Masamage 16:07, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty damn sure they'd be spoofing something in particular, as there are some super vague references made in that series. Such as the December When There Is No Angel doujinshi visable in the bottom-left corner of the background in this screenshot. Obviously, you have to be insanely otaku to catch some of these (I'm amazed I spotted that one), and it's especially hard for us non-Japanese to get them. --SeizureDog 04:12, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Help about Content Dispute arguments made in Japanese
It seemed the Japanese Wiki dispute about whether Detective Conan has plagiarized some other work has spread to the English Wikipedia; See Talk:Case Closed. The main issue is, this, and other several talk threads surrounding this issue (mainly on User talk:1523) are mainly in Japanese, hence me, as a non-Japanese editor, cannot fully participate in the dispute (I plan to have a RfC on this issue.). I would like some J/E translations of the discussions here, thanks!--Samuel CurtisShinichian-Hirokian-- TALK · CONTRIBS 02:08, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I just read through all that stuff, so I suppose I should say something. Most of it is really just not worth translating -- bickering back and forth over semantics. The Japanese page on the Picasso-kun novels is the most informative summary of the issue, but frankly, the entire thing doesn't seem worth including. Funazaki grumbled a little, but showed no inclination to take the issue to court, and the similarities he described are all extremely common motifs in manga. As it stands now, I don't see how it's notable. Doceirias 02:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * But are there any WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA issues? --Samuel CurtisShinichian-Hirokian-- TALK · CONTRIBS 10:40, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I think it's worth mentioning briefly (perhaps 1-2 sentences at most), but that's all the mention it needs. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihon joe 15:47, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Merging Category:Anime by genre and Category:Manga by genre
I have brought this here rather than directly to WP:CfD because standardization discussions are better dealt with by a normal discussion format rather than a timed debate.

At present we have two very nearly identical sets of categories, Category:Anime by genre and Category:Manga by genre. The subcategories contained within these systems are all redundant to one another, and result in immense category bloat on pages like Elfen Lied where we have lists like "Drama anime | Drama manga | Horror anime | Horror manga | Romance anime | Romance manga | Science fiction anime | Science fiction manga | Seinen". If we were to merge the two categories together, that number could be cut in half. I propose the creation of Category:Anime and manga by genre and subdivision system "GENRE anime and manga" for the individual subcats.

Is there any reason to keep the two divided seperately that outweighs the category bloat it creates? --tjstrf talk 00:15, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Not all anime have a manga, and not all manga have an anime. In the example above, there are obviously too many genre being used (I'd buy comedy long before romance) and the bloat could easily be taken care of by splitting the manga and anime off into separate pages. Lack of information on the manga is the only reason this hasn't happened. But even on pages where the category bloat exists, I fail to see how creating a set of categories that do not distinguish between entirely different mediums solves anything. Especially given the growing number of anime based on novels. Doceirias 00:28, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Wait, are you suggesting we split the manga and anime into different articles for Elfen Lied despite the lack of substantial difference between them? That's just silly. As for your other complaint, that's like saying that a category "Fooian men and women" must contain only conjoined hermaphrodite twins because otherwise the members aren't technically both "men and women". Not everything in the category needs to be both a manga and an anime, just one or the other. --tjstrf talk 00:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It can't be split now, no. Not until the manga is actually translated. But anime and manga are very different, and shouldn't be grouped together. And I'd rather see them grouped only under the original medium rather than grouped under a catch-all -- but ultimately, my point was that rather than create a less accurate category for the sake of convenience, we should be more selective about how many categories something gets filed under. Doceirias 01:24, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * (Why would we want to split a WP:GA in the first place?) I agree that the redundant genre categories are a bit of a mess anyway, but isn't that even more reason to condense them? As for only grouping under original medium, that's rather arbitrary. If both drama anime and drama manga exist, categorizing an anime/manga under only one will rightfully seem silly and the other will be added by another editor. By the way, I'm going to link this discussion from WP:OVERCAT since it also falls under their interests. --tjstrf talk 01:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * (Assuming the manga additions made the article too long, of course.) I think I've been rather unfocused in my responses -- I was trying to propose other solutions, but I think I just muddied the waters. Basically, I don't see that there's a major problem, and I like your solution less than the problem as it stands. Manga and anime are not the same, and should not be in the same category. Books and movies aren't, and neither are any other examples of artistic works that have been adapted into multiple medium. Doceirias 01:44, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * We already do this in other cases. I direct your attention to, for instance, Category:Anime and manga characters by series, which exists to hold character categories and lists in one condensed mass rather than being in two near-identical categories of Category:Anime characters by series and Category:Manga characters by series. There are other examples, as the prefix index shows. Anime and manga may technically be different, but for the purposes of category organization they do not need to be seperated except in a few cases where the purpose is to explicitly distinguish between those two mediums. WP:CVG did a similar thing recently, changing their previous conventions of "Computer and video games" to just "Video games" because there was no need to make the distinction within their categories. --tjstrf talk 02:44, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * (Akk, indentation!) There's a huge difference, bewteen CVG changing to VG, and this. Computer games ARE video games. It's like if someone said "anime and cartoons", as anime ARE cartoons. Noone would ever think to group comics and cartoons together as a catagory, would they, except, POSSIBLY, under a third main qualifier. I'm not proposing for a split of this project or anything, as certainly manga and anime are worth tying together as a project, but they are still fully seperate things.
 * All that said, I would not be opposed to the merger, as I agree sometimes overcatagorizing is out of hand (ever looked at a baseball page?), but at least make the correct argument... ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 03:24, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Solution: Keep the manga by genre and anime by genre categories and create anime and manga by genre categories. The categories would then work like so: Make sense?--SeizureDog 04:50, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Believers would use Category:Drama manga
 * Onkyo Seimeitai Noiseman would use Category:Fantasy anime
 * Genshiken would use Category:Comedy anime and manga
 * Ugh, I was wondering how long until someone else had that particular "bright idea". I thought of it myself, but then realized it was even worse. Now not only did you just make another 30+ cats but Category:Drama anime and manga is now a member of both Category:Drama manga and Category:Drama anime, and Fate/stay night is now in Category:Fantasy anime, manga, and visual novels which is in turn in Category:Fantasy anime, Category:Fantasy manga, and Category:Fantasy visual novels, and Category:Fantasy visual novels is in Category:Fantasy video games. Making comprehensive sets of nested category intersections is a Bad Thing. --tjstrf talk 04:57, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * This is a bit sidetracked, but... Elfenlied is a romance? The anime, maybe a bit. The manga? Maybe proper categorization of genres would help more. --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 05:06, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Harem series are romance by default. You raise a good point there as well though, since pretty much every anime ever contains both comedy and romance to the point where it's hardly worth saying. --tjstrf talk 05:13, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Then we could class it as harem and imply romance and comedy! Go me. --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 05:24, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * We don't have a category for that already? Amazing. Probably because some people get really pissy if you call their series "harem" because they think it's negative. For an instance of where you could get into a giant fight over it, Higurashi no naku koro ni. --tjstrf talk 06:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Wow, life really DOES imitate fiction, doesn't it? :) ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 11:49, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * And drama should only be used if there isn't another genre to place something in. We could take care of this overcategorizing problem in no time by simple being more selective the the genres used. Doceirias 08:06, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * We're not going to make genre categories for visual novels, simply because that would be really, really stupid (they're almost all romance). And once again, I wish there was a good term for anime and manga together. I guess Category:Japanese comedy media franchise sounds a bit stupid now doesn't it?--SeizureDog 05:44, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, there's "Animanga", but that's rather idiotic sounding to my ears. (Wouldn't "Japanese comedy media franchise" include those creepy gameshows they have as well?) As for the visual novel categories, yes they're nearly all romance but they're often romance and something else (fantasy, sci-fi, supernatural, etc.) and if nothing else they could deserve inclusion in the video game genre cats. Speaking of which, that would give us even more potential intersections... Category:Fantasy video game, anime, manga, card game, action figure line, and jet liner paintjob anyone? --tjstrf talk 06:34, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The reason manga and anime can be merged into the same categories is because they share the same genres. Video games use an entirely different set of genres (visual novels are consider a genre more than a medium). Same applies to card games and all of those other examples.--SeizureDog 07:09, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I was making a joke with that last comment. It did have a purpose, however: Showing how absurd miniscule sub-categorized intersections can get. (For the worst real example I can think of, at one point we had a Category:Fictional Black African-American DC animated Superheroes with the power to manipulate electricity) --tjstrf talk 07:12, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Free use emotions image
I noticed User:Beyond silence has found us a great free use image, Image:Manga emotions.jpg. Anyone up for making one with English labels? I might be able to do it myself if I have time before work today, but I thought I would mention it here anyways just to let people know we have another great free-use image. -- Ned Scott 15:48, 25 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you, I glad if I can help and you like it. I 'm sorry, I don't speaking german (it looks like german, is'nt it? :)) --Beyond silence 15:21, 26 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't speak German either, but it seems quite easy. Clockwise from top-left: neutral, euphoric, happy, sad, perplex, pouting, disappointed, angry. Although the pouting one looks angry too, and the angry one looks just serious to me. --Εξαίρετος (msg) 15:39, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * "Zufrieden" is more like "content" than "happy" but in this case, it's no big difference. :) --Koveras ☭ 19:11, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah. Dictionary gives me "content" for that one, and nothing at all for "schmollend". --Masamage 19:19, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

de:wikt:lächeln, the wiktionary entry for the German word "to smile", lists schmollen as being its antonym. Given that pouting is one of the several faces that are antonymous with smiling, I'd think pouting would be an accurate caption. --tjstrf talk 20:55, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Just thought to check, and pout confirms this, schmollen is listed as a German synonym. --tjstrf talk 20:58, 26 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Than who sure he knows update the picture, or writing to the Summary the meanings! Thanks --Beyond silence 09:21, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Done. English version is now at Image:Manga emotions-EN.jpg. --tjstrf talk 00:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Why didn't you just upload it over the original version? --Farix (Talk) 01:49, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Germans are people to. It's a commons image, not just for en.wiki, so people on other projects like de.wiki may be using it where German would make more sense than English would. de.wiki has some asinine "no fair use images, AT ALL" policy, so they need all the free illustrations they can get. --tjstrf talk 01:56, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Selected Series
Just a quick question about the Selected Series on the main page of the Anime and Manga Portal. I apologise if it has already been answered before.

Who chooses the Selected Series? Under the link "More Selected Series," am I allowed to choose a series for, say, Week 20? Or is that decided elsewhere? And by whom?

Thanks. --Mintpie 03:59, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * It use to be whatever was the AMCOTW the previous week. But with the abandonment of the AMCOTW, we haven't set up a formal selection process. I would suggest that we create a nomination page where we can vote as to which article will be the "Selected series" and "Selected biography" each week. We really shouldn't be having people putting in articles without oversight just because WP:THEYLIKEIT. --Farix (Talk) 11:02, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Waiting on GAC
If anyone feels like doing an anime-related review, Ami Mizuno has been a good article candidate for nearly three weeks. --Masamage 22:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * And now it is a good article! :D  Geez that GA queue's long.  Next one up is .hack//Sign. -Malkinann 02:27, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Joining
Hey where do I go to join the WikiProject Anime and Manga, as I love anime and manga, and would like to help aid in wikipedia's side of anime and manga.

Thanks - Cocopopz2005 03:27, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Add yourself to the category (

) or just use the userbox. --tjstrf talk 03:43, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Labeling light novels with shonen or shojo
I've been having a discussion with User talk:ChuChu about applying the Shonen and Shōjo genre labels to light novels. It's my feeling that these terms are almost never used with light novels. But both of us are basing our opinions on instinct and whatever evidence we could find, so I figured it was worth asking for a third opinion, particularly if there are any native Japanese speakers here. Doceirias 21:01, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * If they are marked that way on the JA wiki, or the JA wiki article talks about it, then I'm fine with it. Also, if it's a series of novels related to a shōnen or shōjo manga/anime series, then it should be labeled appropriately. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihon joe 21:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Genres are one of the most original researched areas of anime articles on Wikipedia. It would be good to find reliably published sources before labeling any anime, manga, or light novel as falling within a particular genre. And even if we do sources, editors all too often change them or create their own genres. Such as when someone created "Western anime" and put Trigun into it when the cat is a neologism and putting any anime or manga into such a cat constitutes clear original research. --Farix (Talk) 21:41, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Because my English skill is poor, I post on facts. There are terms such as 'shonen novel' (少年小説), 'shojo novel' (少女小説), 'light novel for boys' (少年向けライトノベル) and 'light novel for girls' (少女向けライトノベル). However, I don't know why, but I have never heard terms such as 'shonen light novel' (少年ライトノベル) and 'shojo light novel' (少女ライトノベル). I hope you find it informative.--Swind 03:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I still hate these "target market genres". I would rather we just do away with them. They're too far reaching and ambiguous. Confusing case in point: Shojo Beat is marketed towards girls 16+. But wait, isn't that more along the lines of josei? which is aimed at "late teenage and adult female audiences"?--SeizureDog 23:34, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Shinigami no Ballad is down a seinen, for some reason. But the manga is shojo...they aren't genres anyway. Doceirias 23:51, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of whether we like or dislike the labels, if you go into any bookstore (used or new) in Japan you'll find manga separated first by target audience: very young kids, shōjo, josei, shōnen, seinen, and adult (what is called "hentai" outside of Japan). They are then sorted by publisher and/or author. We call them genres because we lack any other translation and "genre" covers it rather well. In Japan, the only thing that matters is what the manga was originally published in. That's what determines the "genre". For anime, it's a little bit harder. You can generally tell by the marketing for the anime, though some are harder to tell than others. And, since most of us aren't in Japan, it's a little harder for us to see that marketing.

So, I propose that for manga, we go by the magazine it was originally published in. For anime, I propose that we generally go by (first) the manga it was based on and (second) the marketing target audience if there is no original manga series. This should cover everything. I think the largest obstacle will be convincing people that shows like Magical Star Magical Emi and Angelic Layer are not shōjo. (^_^)

So, how to apply this to light novels? I think the same criteria can be applied, as many light novels were originally serialized in shōjo-, josei-, shōnen-, and seinen-targeted magazines. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihon joe 05:32, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


 * We could call it a classification, but that would involve making an additional line for the infobox.
 * Most light novels are not serialized in any magazines, and the ones that are serialized often are serialized in magazines with a much less specific target audience. Dengeki HP, for example, is male oriented, but aimed at an otaku audience, which means the shonen and seinen labels don't apply. I think.
 * Also, if you go into any Japanese bookstore you'll find the light novels all grouped together by line -- at most, the books for girls will be on one side and the books for boys will be on the other.
 * I'd just as soon apply the labels only when there is a manga adaption that can be clearly labeled as one or the other, and not have the label applied when the classification is unclear or confusing. We don't need to classify every title with one of these, and for titles with unclear or contradictory just stick with regular genres. Doceirias 08:26, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with your last paragraph: if it's not clearly shōjo, shōnen, etc., then it shouldn't be labeled as such. Regular genres would then apply. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihon joe 03:31, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


 * It doesn't matter what the manga is, Shinigami no Ballad is a shounen light novel and not shoujo. Its not the first time a publisher allows a shoujo manga adaptation of a male oriented light novel. light novels are published under certain labels, and those labels are aimed at certain audience just like comic imprints (Shounen Magazine Comics, Young Jump Comics, Jets Comics, and lots of other comic imprints) are aimed at a certain audience. light novels don't have to be serialized in a certain magazine for us to know if they are for males or females.
 * Most light novel labels are aimed at teenagers and above thats one of the reasons why light novels are either "for shounen" or "for shoujo". Dengeki HP light novels gets published under the shounen label Dengeki Bunko and so they are shounen light novels.
 * There are general labels, but light novels from Dengeki Bunko and Sneaker Bunko and other male oriented light novel lables (GA Bunko, MF Bunko, ...) are not hard to classify, these are labels for teenage males and above, shounen light novels but not shoujo nor josei.
 * As you can see in this link: http://www.koubundo.net/tenpo/honten.html on floor B1 shounen novels and shoujo novels are seperated just like shounen manga and shoujo manga are seperated into their own section.
 * If a manga gets based on shounen light novels and that manga is shoujo manga, the light novel does not become "for shoujo" just because there's a shoujo manga based on the light novel. ChuChu 09:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Except there is no such term is a shonen light novel. Read Swind's comments above -- he's a native Japanese speaker, and confirms my theory that the usage of the word shonen in relation to light novels simply suggests male oriented, and does not carry the same meanings as it does with manga. Doceirias 20:10, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah exactly, male oriented light novels.
 * Shounen muke light novels and shounen light novels are light novels for males. there's no difference between these terms. Just as shounen muke manga and shounen manga are the same. ChuChu 21:21, 30 March 2007
 * Shonen does not mean male oriented. It refers to an age group specifically. And the term is not used with light novels. Native Japanese speakers have confirmed this. What more proof do you need? Doceirias 21:28, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Shounen does not mean male oriented, yes I know, you don't have to tell me that, but it is used to refer to male oriented light novels, because they are aimed at teenage males and above. ChuChu 21:49, 30 March 2007
 * I'm not trying to be rude. But since my point is that it isn't used with light novels the way you're using it, and you apparently don't believe me...I mean, we could do "Yes, it is." "No, it isn't," all day, but it's not going to accomplish anything. Doceirias 23:21, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

(unindent) This whole argument is over one person's original research verses another person's original research. If you can't find a reliable published source to ATTribute which genres a work belongs to, then those genres shouldn't be listed on the article. --Farix (Talk) 23:53, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not original research, except in cases where it's not clear (see my last comment above). Read any book about manga, and you'll see these genres, classifications, or whatever-we-want-to-call-them used and discussed often. All they are is a way the publishers specify who the target audience is. Keep in mind that this doesn't always mean that's who the audience actually is, but that it's the target. I know plenty of males who like Sailor Moon (manga and anime), and plenty of females who just love Inu Yasha, but they are still classified by the publishers as shōjo and shōnen (respectively). I agree with Doceirias, however, that we should limit the use of the classifications to those that are very clearly one or the other (based on the original magazine in which they were published, for example). ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihon joe 03:31, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
 * So what should we do in the case of, say, Missing, where the discussion began? Doceirias 17:43, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
 * See my previous comment. Anything more would be original research. --Farix (Talk) 19:53, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I mean, Missing isn't a shonen book. It sounds like simply removing that genre would be putting my 'original research' (that the term light novel doesn't apply to light novels, an unprovable statement) over ChuChu's 'original research' that Missing is shonen. So should I tag the genere with ? Or just give up and let it be? Doceirias 01:33, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
 * That still doesn't preclude providing reliable publish sources stating that an anime/manga/light novel X is a particular genre. The same goes for stating what it's target audience is. Anything less then that is original research, regardless of how you try to justify it. --Farix (Talk) 19:58, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with Farix here. I dislike the genre categorization too. There are articles where every genre imaginable is used. Just because there's 3 girls, it's listed as a harem. Just because there was one humor episode, it's listed as comedy. Just because it has a slight romantic undertone between two side characters, it's listed as romance. These are fake examples based on what I have seen, so don't ask which articles. This constitutes as original research as well, just like categorizing them as josei / shoujo etc when they aren't. Another example, I removed Nana from the josei article because the Nana article says it's shoujo, but it's been added back and removed at least once since. --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 20:35, 31 March 2007 (UTC)