Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anime and manga/Archive 16

Template suggestion
Many other WikiProjects use both list and cat (short for category) as parameters in their templates. Might be worth adding them. Just a friendly suggestion.--NPswimdude500 07:30, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with Category, but not list. Lists can be grouped as start, B, A, or even featured just like articles. ---tjstrf talk 07:33, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Classifying categories and templates is automatic by placing the template on the talk page. An additional parameter isn't needed. --Farix (Talk) 12:34, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Naming conventions?
Just if someone could clarify this for me because it confuses me. When we have articles about various anime programs, do we use the names from English dubs, or the original Japanese? It seems to be inconsistent, specifically I'd noticed, at some point, everything in the Naruto-related articles were switched to the names used in the English dub, while the Dragon Ball-related articles all use the Japanese names for characters and attacks and what have you. I guess what I'm trying to understand is, under what circumstances do we use the English dub names, and when do we use the Japanese names? Errick 03:22, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Last I checked, we used what ever is most common. If that Japanese names are more common we generally use them, but if English are we use them. Though I've seen some articles who switch to English once a dub is released. I think we need to come up with a standard, official English or official Japanese or hell unofficial popular subtitled things. --Malevious Userpage •Talk Page• Contributions 03:25, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * At the Sailor Moon wikiproject we use the Japanese names because the English adaptations were sometimes inconsistent and incomplete. We do use the English names when discussing the English-language 'versions' of a character, however. -Malkinann 03:32, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, we also use Japanese at WP:SM because of the "most common" rule Malevious mentions. Most Sailor Moon fans got into the series before it had been dubbed, and of course it isn't even finished now. But yeah, Errick, most people think KareKano instead of "Tales at North Hills High"--on the other hand, most people think Parasyte instead of "Kiseijū". So those are the names we use, and then we set up redirects to point all the other possible titles toward the same article. --Masamage ♫ 04:04, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The Wikipedia's policy (WP:NAME) is to use English names unless the foreign name is more commonly recognized. And of course, I do want correct something Masamage stated. "Most Sailor Moon fans got into the series before it had been dubbed". This is patently false as SM was one of the early "gateway anime" which introduced many people to anime. But it's impossible to do that if it wasn't dubbed. --Farix (Talk) 11:06, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'd say most SM fans saw the dub first. My experience is that, at least online, most people are exposed to the original if they are a fan of the series at ALL (from going to websites, forums, chatrooms, etc), because it was so big when the more hardcore were the main types to even be online/make sites (and thus making a chain reaction of pushing people toward the original, and so on). So SM isn't a really good example... ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 11:20, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * What I meant was "before 60% of it had been dubbed." I assumed that would be obvious. --Masamage ♫ 15:08, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I do know I confused a bunch of people once a while back by talking about Mamoru-kun. Hehe.  But yeah, I can see how it would make sense to use whatever is best known.  It's just hard sometimes to tell what would really be considered the best known in some cases. Errick 23:26, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Can we please move Kimi ga Nozomu Eien to Rumbling Hearts, then? Snarfies 00:38, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * What you could do is move the video game to Kimi ga Nozomu Eien (video game) while the anime is at "Rumbling Hearts" WhisperToMe 03:23, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

New infobox?
I edited these articles a little bit encyclopedic: Those are the main characters in Demashita! Powerpuff Girls Z, an anime based on The Powerpuff Girls. Technically, they are superheroes, although they resembles magical girls. Now, those articles needs an infobox. However, Infobox character can't show their abilties while Superherobox can't show the character's portrayer in the broadcast media. No no. Sailor Moon character is dedicated for the characters in the Sailor Moon. What should we do? Should we create Infobox magical girl?--JSH-alive talk to mesee my worksmail to me 09:39, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Momoko Akatsutsumi
 * Miyako Goutokuji
 * Kaoru Matsubara

Chaos in the Categories
is adding and deleting InuYasha-related articles from categories in a careless and arbitrary fashion. Please help. JRSpriggs 10:50, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I am NOT vandalizing these articles. I am adding useful information to the articles that others haven't. I'm sure that some of the information I have provided may be deleted but most of what I have put is useful. If I've deleted any categories it is because they already fall under categories WITHIN categories. Tell me exactly what I have done wrong and I will do my best to fix it. Unknown Dragon 11:05, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I realize that you are not vandalizing these articles. But I feel that, in some cases, you are putting them into categories which reflect attributes which while true are NONESSENTIAL. Rather like putting a picture of two people playing GO (with a tea service in the background) into a category about tea pots. JRSpriggs 11:18, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Sortkeys
Since we now have the keyword/variable, I've modified the animanga infoboxes so that they can use these when categorizing articles. Check Category:Anime series and Category:Manga series for a large amount of articles needing proper sortkeys. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 08:06, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Case Closed to Detective Conan move requested
Under the request of user User:Mojo-chan, I nominated Case Closed (and 11 related articles with Case Closed in its name) to be renamed Detective Conan. Please discuss it at Talk:Case Closed.--Samuel CurtisShinichian-Hirokian-- TALK · CONTRIBS 14:51, 10 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I offer moral support, but I think the fact that the franchise is officially known as Case Closed in the US means that it won't go through.


 * perfectblue 14:58, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

List of characters pages
How are these usually done? Exukvera‎ tried to split up Bokurano and created List of Bokurano characters. It took TheWizard's reminder for me to remember that you can't just chop an article up according to GFDL (I knew that, but it didn't hit me when I saw it). So how are the character list pages supposed to be created? Is the page started from scratch? Is the history duplicated and then all the non-character information removed? I have no clue, and I don't remember seeing guidelines for it. Also, I think a number of other character lists were started the incorrect way, so it through me off.  Leebo  T / C  19:00, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * See Summary_style; basically, you need to specify both pages in the edit summary and include main at the top of the split section. --Εξαίρετος (msg) 19:07, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, so basically, it's okay to split them as long as people going to each article can tell that all the information came from the main article?  Leebo  T / C  19:10, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Basically you create the page with a summary like "Creating article with content split from whatever the original article was", though a more strict GFDL reading would require you to also list the names of the major editors. (The listing could also be done on the talk page if the edit summary referred you there...) If you wrote it all yourself though, then you can just paste it wherever without any concerns. --tjstrf talk 03:42, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Elfen Lied: Lucy
I started a new article on Lucy (Elfen Lied) the main character from Elfen Lied, and I'm trying to bring it up to standards. Can anyone please help?--Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 22:10, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I did a quick assessment of the page if you're interested. See the talk page. --Imaginationac (Talk | Edits) 19:55, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks; I'm not sure how this wikiproject works so I didn't know how to put the article in the "list of articles needing immediate attention" or whatever. --Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 05:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Joint Taskforce?
Hi, I'm the Coordinator for WikiProject LGBT studies. WP:LGBT has quite a few anime and manga articles under our banner, at least 100, but given the expertise needed to write articles on the subject, it is unlikely we will ever get any significant work done to them by ourselves. Can I therefore suggest a joint LGBT AaM taskforce (within the jurisdiction and control of both projects, though on your pages) to deal with this? We can offer FA advice, editor support, experienced peer reviewers, among other things - not that I'm suggesting you don't have any of that, but 8 eyeballs are better than 4, no? You've got some really great articles at the moment, and I'm interested in helping you get a few more FAs if I can. Would you be interested? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 03:42, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Shall I take that as a no, then? :) Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 22:17, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Magazine Archive
I think it would be a great idea for this project to have a magazine archive similar to the CVG Magazine Archive. I am willing to help create the page, although I could not contribute sources, as I do not have a single anime/manga related magazine. --Imaginationac (Talk | Edits) 14:31, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Great. Start here: User:GunnarRene/Sources. --GunnarRene 18:14, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I created the magazine archive with the sources from User:GunnarRene/Sources. There's a link on the main project page nav. bar. Feel free to look and add anything you have. --Imaginationac (Talk | Edits) 21:01, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I added myself to all the magazines I could find. I also started a topic page for Newtype USA: WikiProject Anime and manga/Magazines/Newtype USA. While it's nice to know which magazines someone has, it's even nicer to know what's in them. (^_^) ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihon joe 22:35, 28 April 2007 (UTC)


 * So, does anyone have any thoughts, comments, or suggestions for the topic pages created so far (Newtype USA and Animage)? ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihon joe 01:36, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject banners and scopes
As a WikiProject that has done a pretty good job at keeping our scope clean, I was wondering if anyone wanted to comment on a discussion I've started about project scopes and banners at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject reform. -- Ned Scott 00:46, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

The separation of Robo and Sokko
As of now, the Giant Robo live-action series, also known as Johnny Sokko and his Flying Robot is a separate article from the Giant Robo.

As I understand it, Giant Robo (tokusatsu) is one of the Toei Superheroes so it falls under the jurisdiction of WP:TOKU and Giant Robo (OVA) under WP:ANIME. Just letting the respective projects know.--Nohansen 20:44, 21 April 2007 (UTC)


 * More "scope", really, than "jurisdiction". (^_^) ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihon joe 19:29, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Trivia and fancruft in Lupin III
I'm currently fighting an anonomous user over obvious fancruft and trivia in the Lupin III article. While my revert eliminates the obvious fancuftness and wild speculation (including the numerous undereferenced "homages") the user keeps on insisting to "explain" why characters from Bleach or Cowboy bebop are obvious homages to Lupin III without giving proper references, instead using arguements like "oh, the creators aren't gonan readily admit to them, thats why their homages!!" and trying to use the episodes as the references. I've already posted enough links about Wikipedia policies, but the user refuses to either learn, or insists he's right. I'm getting pretty fed up, and I want it to end. I'm open to any suggestions on how to stop this. My main concern is that I want to see hard concrete references to the "homages' and get the article in line with wikipedia policies. --293.xx.xxx.xx 11:52, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Request page protection and see if that will nip it in the bud. Another alternative would be to apply fact tags to indicate that needs a reference. If that still doesn't work, go to the Administrator Noticeboard for further assistance. --Farix (Talk) 12:16, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Many articles have similar trivia sections: Gintama, for instance. Is it worth trying to fight them? Doceirias 19:32, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
 * One page at a time. One page at a time.--293.xx.xxx.xx 05:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * WP:TRIV outlines that trivia sections should generally be avoided. Normally, this is done by incorporating it into other parts of the article. However, if it really is trivial, then does it really have a place in an article? The trivia section Gintama is one example of a bad trivia section containing a lot of trivial and irrelevant information. --Farix (Talk) 20:34, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I am this "anonymous" user. If people would go to the article, and if they know anything about Lupin III, they can plainly see that a character wearing the exact same signature outfit of Lupin III is nothing but an obvious homage. If the character in question was just wearing a similar jacket, that would be debatable. If the character was wearing the same jacket and the same tie, then yes, it would still be debatable. But we're talking about the character wearing the exact same jacket, shirt, tie, pants, shoes, and belt. What the above user's problem is that he does not like the show Lupin III and he has a problem with shows like Cowboy Bebop and Bleach making plain and obvious references to it. I would like you (as in all the others who have no bias against Lupin) to go to that section and read it and tell me how to fix it and I will. And while you're there, please read the talk section (go to "Drastic Changes to the References Section" there) to see how uncooperative the above user is. If he really cares about fixing up the section, he'd help out in more ways than just deleting everything left and right. He's also doing the same thing with Samurai Champloo. You can go to that user's talk page and see how he fails to cooperate with another user in the same manner. 68.43.82.69 02:33, 23 April 2007 (UTC)(talk)
 * I find offense to your last comment. --293.xx.xxx.xx 07:50, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * There's a fine line between "obvious homage" and "original research". No wait, there's a clear line.  Just stop. JuJube 02:45, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Would you most kindly explain to me how that is original research? And for that matter, how that is not an obvious homage? I'm curious as to whether or not you read the section in question.68.43.82.69 03:00, 23 April 2007 (UTC) 68.43.82.69
 * I don't need to have read it. WP:ATT is very clear.  I suggest you read that. JuJube 03:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Worth looking at the actual section under debate. To my eye, it looks like it isn't a trivia section, but a clear effort at demonstrating the scope of Lupin III's influence on successive creators. The references sited strike me as legitimate as well. I'm not sure how that image from Bleach doesn't qualify as a proper reference. Doceirias 03:17, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * And per I have a right to challenge that image's claim or outright delete it. How do I know the clothing was just a random freak occurance and has nothing to do with Lupin?? Unless the episode clearly states that there is a blatant Lupin Homage (like in the FLCL episode Brittle Bullet) or the annonymous editor can prove it via a credible sourced reference, I find most of the Pop Culture references moot and subject to deletion on site.--293.xx.xxx.xx 05:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * You can outright delete things that are not referenced, but there are inline references for these. This is about as OR as stating the gender of a character. -- Ned Scott 05:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

This is actually the kind of references we should put in articles (just not excessively). I'm not sure if I'd call this excessive or not, but for the time being I can't say that it bothers me. Noting other work paying homage shows you how the anime had an impact on other shows. As far as the OR concern, from what I can tell it's very obvious what's going on, and hardly original research. What we should be discussing is not if we should have these notes, but instead how much to note. -- Ned Scott 05:23, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It should be mentioned that many anime and manga have homages to Lupin III with a couple of examples of the most noted homages. However, not every homage should be listed, even if it is verifiable, as that borders on indiscriminate information. --Farix (Talk) 12:23, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Verifiability. If the next edits don't have references, it get's deleted. Period.--293.xx.xxx.xx 05:33, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * This is why I voted in favor of WP:ATT. So many people interpret Verifiability incredibly broadly, with no grounds for common sense. The Bleach picture seems like a reference to me - anyone can look at the two and compare.
 * And setting up ultimatums before the discussion here has even started violates Civility. Doceirias 06:06, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm gonna strike out my comments, I overreacted. JuJube 06:22, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Cooling off first. --293.xx.xxx.xx 07:49, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Coincidentally, there is a potential edit war brewing up in Baiken over her resemblance to Kenshin Himura. An admin oughta take a look at that before it gets nasty. :/ JuJube 01:00, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Never mind, it seems okay, now... JuJube 01:07, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Article structure proposal
The section guideline on the project page looked to me like needing some attention, so I've take the liberty of preparing a draft guideline for your consideration. I'll admit in advance that my own opinions on what should and should not be in an article have informed this draft, but I don't think I've done anything exceptionally controversial. Suggestions, denunciations welcome. :) --Monocrat 16:45, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * That looks good to me. Doceirias 21:09, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I bit the bullet and drafted a revised version of the whole "Article structure" section, located at the same place. Chiefly, I tried to streamline things and remove repetition. Thoughts welcome.--Monocrat 23:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * A note on the Characters section: you mention the use of a definition list (as in the current guideline), but below you urge not to use boldface for the characters' names. Using the standard wikipedia definition list (with ';' and ':') the names would show up in bold + it's mentioned as an exception in WP:MOSBOLD.
 * I personally prefer having the names in bold, using the definition list, it looks more clear than bullet lists with strings of text attached. I think most articles (nearly all?) use bold for char names now (including the FA for Lain). Ninja neko 12:33, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for pointing that out. Personally, I strongly disagree with current practice, but this isn't the time to discuss that, so I'll make the change.--Monocrat 13:55, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Inuyasha Work Group
Would anyone be interested in participating in an Inuyasha Work Group? --Imaginationac (Talk | Edits) 21:04, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Someone please fix this mess
Ôgon Batto is an entry that I originally created to document possibly the earliest Japanese superhero. A couple of months after I created this entry, someone else created a redundant page about the charater using the name Phantoma, which was the name given to the character by a European redubbing company. Now someone has moved all the contents of the Ôgon Batto page into the Phantoma page, and made the Ôgon Batto entry into a redirect. The character originated in Japan, and should have the Japanese name at the top of the article. The character's adventures have never, to my knowledge, been translated into English, so I see no compelling reason why the character's entry in the English language Wikipedia should have the European renaming as the article title. Problem is, now Wikipedia will not let me rename the Phantoma page back to Ôgon Batto because Ôgon Batto allready exists as a redirect page. Could some knowledgeable person please fix this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Drvanthorp (talk • contribs).
 * First do WP:HISTMERGE, then ask that person to do a WP:RM. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Samuel Curtis (talk • contribs) 11:32, 27 April 2007 (UTC).
 * Histmerge nominated; let's see what happens. Don't freak out; it is really a kind of speedy deletion but all content would be retained. --Samuel CurtisShinichian-Hirokian-- TALK · CONTRIBS 11:42, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Just to be sure, where did the name "Phantoma" come from? Here it's listed as a U.S. name; also, if there hasn't been any English translation, what do you mean by "European renaming"? French? German? Dutch? Greek? Italian, Spanish and Portuguese versions had different names. --Εξαίρετος (msg) 12:01, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know here the name Phantoma came from. The guy that created the redundant entry used the name Phantoma. Maybe there is an American dub of the series that I don't know about, but I have not had much luck finding it, or information about it.--Drvanthorp 19:52, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Name mystery solved. The English dubbed show was shown in Australia, English dubbed early Anime world capital. The show was titled "Phantoman", but the character was called Phantoma in the dubbed dialog.--Drvanthorp 19:58, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Stubs
I've been updating the list of Japan-related stubs. Please feel free to add any that I didn't find, and feel free to use that list as a reference if you need to. I think having the list makes it easier than always having to check a particular category to see if there is a related stub type. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihon joe 18:15, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Voice actor notability
Another voice actor has come under a notability question and is now being proposed for deletion - Kevin M. Connolly. While he's not exceptionally notable, he definitely should be enough to have an article. --EmperorBrandon 16:39, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
 * He voices the main character in Rumbling Hearts; which is itself notable enough for a WP article. That makes him notable. --Masamage ♫ 18:49, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
 * He's had recurring roles on a few major animes and a main role on one that definitely qualifies him as notable. --Malevious Userpage •Talk Page• Contributions 19:19, 29 April 2007 (UTC)