Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anime and manga/Haruhi Suzumiya

Just FYI:
I started this and am having difficulty with a few things. Any help would be appreciated. My main concern is that I do not know how to add things to the discussion pages in order to say that those pages are under this Task Force.Sbloemeke 20:33, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * That bit's done easily enough, though you have to be careful not to break the talk page banner. More importantly though, have you discussed this with any of the other editors for the pages you want to cover? Because it's usually good to first gather support and then start the taskforce, so that it doesn't spontaneously die on you. --tjstrf talk 20:42, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I tried to get a wikiproject on this, and most people said it would be better as a task force. So, due to the lack of support for the project, I made this. Sbloemeke 20:47, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * This what you're after? --tjstrf talk 21:22, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Exactly. Thank you very much!Sbloemeke 21:43, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Taskforce logo
Um, what's with the special characters around the O in the logo to the left for the taskforce logo? Wouldn't it be easier just to put SOS, or if you want, ZOZ?--  十  八  02:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. I think it would be much better. I don't know how to fix it, however. I think it was supposed to say SOS and just didn't turn out that way.Sbloemeke 03:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I was trying to make it match Image:Sos logo.png, and I thought it was a neat touch. Are they not displaying properly or something? --tjstrf talk 03:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Probably. It looks like a box instead of an S (Or a Z).Sbloemeke 11:24, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh. If it's not displaying, I'll fix it. The character I used is actually a backwards S. (Ƨ) --tjstrf talk 16:47, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The reason I brought it up is that it doesn't display in MSN browser, but it does in Firefox. I use MSN to browse wiki since I like how it renders it, but I think as long as one browser has a problem rendering it, then it should be changed to SOS, and it was changed for now I saw.--  十  八  00:12, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I changed it to a normal S. As for why not to use ZOZ, Z looks nothing like Ƨ at all. --tjstrf talk 05:44, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I added in the image Image:Haruhiism H.png as our logo since it has already been in use in two userboxes. Or, we could use another userbox image, Image:SOS Logo png.PNG instead...--  十  八  05:11, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The H looks better. It's the right size for it. I feel if we use the SOS, it would be squished trying to fit the size requirements, and not be visable.

Speeking of userboxes, does anyone know how to make one?Sbloemeke 11:28, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I've made several userboxes in the past, so I'd be more than willing to help if you need it. I assume you want a userbox for the task force?--  十  八  11:34, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yep. I'm guessing just the H with "This user is a member of the Haruhi Suzumiya Task Force". Sbloemeke 19:48, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * What do you think? I chose to use the term Work Group instead of Task Force simply because in the banner above it states this project as a work group and at WP:Anime, it also is referred to as a work group. You can edit it at User:Juhachi/Haruhi task force.--  十  八  21:48, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * What do you think? I chose to use the term Work Group instead of Task Force simply because in the banner above it states this project as a work group and at WP:Anime, it also is referred to as a work group. You can edit it at User:Juhachi/Haruhi task force.--  十  八  21:48, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Am I the only one who finds that giant H rather ugly and disruptive to the banner formatting? If that's what you've agreed on, then fine, but it seems like there could be something a bit less HUEG. --tjstrf talk 23:38, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It has the same dimensions of Wikipe-tan above it, abeit her face doesn't take up the entire 45px...On that note, I do not agree that it is disruptive.--  十  八  05:40, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems like it actually is an optical illusion. Because it is the entire H taking up the 45 pix, it seems to be huge by comparison. I was scrolling through your userboxes, and I saw one with the SOS and Kanji symbol on it. It looked really good. Before making another change we should have concensus, but what are the opinions on using the blue and green one?Sbloemeke 12:24, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, you meant this image: Image:SOS Logo png.PNG. I suggested that we might be able to use this one if the H wasn't used, or make a new logo entirely in the future and just use one of these temporarily.--  十  八  22:37, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Layout:
Being that we are a task force, I guess one of the first things to do is throw out a suggestion. Strolling through the pages, I saw that the main link in the template is the light novels, the Melancholy includes both the manga and the anime, and then the other light novel pages are just simple. I feel like we should get some sort of consistancy. Like, maybe a main Haruhi article just as an overview of everything, a light novel section, and an anime section? Sbloemeke 11:22, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, here's a proposal. I want to know your thoughts on this.

Main Page (Uncreated): Contains an overview of the series, a brief run down of the charecters with links to their articles, and discusses briefly the various adaptations of it.

Light Novel Page: Discusses the light novels in a general sense, with a list of the light novels and general information on their release and publication. Much like we have now.

Anime Page (Uncreated, for the most part): Deals with the anime adaptation of the light novels. Most of the information from "The Melancholy" would go into this page. It would deal with the anime adaptations. I feel this should be seperate because the anime does not JUST deal with the 1st book. It takes 5 unrelated stories and a 6th made up for the series.

Individual Book Pages (Uncreated, save for the first 4): Follows a singular format of information. Should include an intro, a general plot overview, and possibly a reception area.

Charecter Pages: The list of charecters goes. Individual charecter pages suffice, and the list would be merged into the main uncreated page. A new list of minor charecter (Non SOS Brigade) is created. This will not only include people like Takieuchi, but it will also include the light novel charecters which never appeared in the anime. Basically, remove the list of main charecters and add it in to a new article, and rename it "List of Minor Charecters"

At this point, I feel the pages will be much more structured and organized. Most importantly, we'll have a fairly complete corner.

On an unrelated note, the template in my opinion really looks bad with books 5-10 not having even a stub of an article. Could we either make a stub or blank out the links until one is ready to be made?Sbloemeke 22:46, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * With the books listed there already, it makes it easier for them to be created, and many templates I've seen in the past have red links in them to denote future pages that must be made, so I would not agree that they should be removed. Plus, when a new page is made, anyone browsing a Haruhi related page instantly knows, and would be able to contribute. The only reason I knew that the articles books 3 and 4 were made was because I noticed the blue links on the template.--  十  八  01:12, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Regarding the character pages, what we have now pretty much works and is basically what you are suggesting, but with brief lead-ins and links to the main character articles. I can't really see a reason to remove those lead-ins, simply to rename it as a "minor" list of characters.


 * The other ideas I think were played with before. I recall there being different "main" articles, or at least different titles. I'll see if I can dig anything up from those discussions that might be of help. -- Ned Scott 02:41, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Regarding the creation of an anime page, this may be needed in the future, especially when the second anime series comes out and the scope thus will not stay within The Melancholy, even though as you said the anime takes stories that were not in the first novel to begin with. But as it is right now, The Melancholy article has mainly been seen as the 'main' page here since it garners the most attention from editors and even if we change the formatting now, I believe that article will still gather the most attention just based on the anime's popularity.


 * Also, with the creation of a main overview article, I can see how this would be usefull, but at the same time I'm a little apprehensive about it. Then again, this is a large series with many adaptations, so there's no real center to it besides the light novels. Therefore, either the current Haruhi Suzumiya (light novels) article is taken to be the 'main' article (since it's the source material) or we create an overview article encompassing the entire series and its adaptations.


 * Actually, just looking at The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya makes it obvious that a split should be made. Specifically for the Affiliations and SOS Brigade sections which are apart of the entire series and not just The Melancholy. These sections, along with an overview of Plot and Characters would go in a main article, something like Haruhi Suzumiya (franchise).--  十  八  02:53, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Ah, that's what it was, the light novel article used to be called (series). Also.. did you say... second anime series? O.o -- Ned Scott 03:28, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, the second anime series hasn't been confirmed yet, but it was posted on Moonphase a while back, and things posted there usually turn out to be right, from what I've found. Also, considering the popularity, can you believe that a second series won't eventually be made? Of course, nothing has been confirmed, so it wouldn't warrent an inclusion in main space, so until then we should at least assume that a new series will be made eventually. So right now I'd be up for a creation of Haruhi Suzumiya (franchise) and Haruhi Suzumiya (anime).--  十  八  04:48, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I certainly hoped there would be, but life can be cruel.. but after hearing this.. awesome. -- Ned Scott 04:51, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I completely agree. It is too mumble jumbles as of now.Sbloemeke 11:27, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Haruhi Suzumiya (anime)
User:Sbloemeke/Haruhi Suzumiya (anime) That is a start. Anyone is free to edit.Sbloemeke 12:12, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Like I said, the Setting, Affiliations, and SOS Brigade sections would be better off in a Haruhi Suzumiya (franchise) article since they cover the entire series, and not just the anime, so I believe these should be removed from your test page. Also, remember whenever you are linking to a page in Wikipedia, Wikilink it by placing two brackets on either side of the page. I fixed the link to your test page above.--  十  八  23:51, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the setting should be part of the Anime, as it is very Anime specific. It mentions episode appearences and stuff. But I see what you mean with the other ones.Sbloemeke 00:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Does it look good as a start, or are there certain issues I'm dealing with? Sbloemeke 22:00, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

A lot of cleanup is needed. First, the lead needs to be fixed (the very first term isn't even bolded) and an infobox needs to be added. Themes can be incorperated into Setting into a "Setting and themes" section, and the setting section itself has to get rid of the list and turn that into prose. The theme songs section also can be turned into prose and a link to the List of Haruhi Suzumiya albums can be placed at the top of that section. Also, a link to the episode list is a must, and possibly we could convert the character section into the first section in List of characters in the Haruhi Suzumiya series and list the section as "Principal characters" in this new article.--  十  八  22:33, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Haruhi Suzumiya (franchise)
User:Juhachi/Haruhi Suzumiya (franchise). To couple the efforts by Sbloemeke, I have started a draft of the franchise article and it's free to be edited by all those that wish to do so.--  十  八  08:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that page looks good. Next to do is the light novel one. Sbloemeke 22:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya
I made a test page at User:Sbloemeke/The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya for what the light novel page would look at. It's open to edits. If there are none needed, I think we should export these pages into the template and complete the arrangement. That also brings up a question. How should it be arranged?Sbloemeke 20:51, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It looks good, but before we launch these pages, I think there is one other thing I want to clear up. I believe that the Haruhi Suzumiya (anime) article should be instead The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya (anime) at least for now as a second season hasn't been announced yet, and the lead itself on that page introduces the name The Melancholy first. So I think at least until the second season's name has been announced, this should be what we should do.--  十  八  21:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Of course. That is the serie's official name in anime form, so until it comes out, it becomes the Melancholy.Sbloemeke 22:43, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Template arrangement
I think it should be done as so. Have the franchise article at the top first. Below that can go a Series section that lists the light novel and anime articles. Below that can go a Novels section which lists the ten novels as it is now. Everything else can stay the same.--  十  八  21:22, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm in favor of that plus one more change. Take the list of anime episodes and put it in the top as well. The far bottom becomes all about music. My guess is that the top will probably be expanded with time to include the English arrangement, the radio broadcasts, etc. I think we should do this to start moving towards a non-list section of the template.Sbloemeke 22:47, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm okay with that. Should we get started then? I really hope that this massive change doesn't start anything major. This taskforce has been linked to the main Haruhi article and to WP:Anime for over a week now, so I don't believe people can accuse us of working behind the scenes.--  十  八  23:31, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Changing right now. It looks good. I just need to import the cover to the light novel Haruhi 1, and export the contents to the article.Sbloemeke 23:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Yay!
That looks absolutely amazing. And not only that, I got to take things off the to-do list. :) Now onto improvements.Sbloemeke 00:09, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Episode list
List of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya episodes appears to be a well-written article, and the previous objections at its WP:FLC page were primarily on the lack of fair-use rationales for the images, which obviously isn't a problem. Should it be renominated for WP:FLC, or would a minor cleanup be needed? Other episode lists that are FL quality are of similar quality. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 07:31, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * If we could get some inline citations for the lead and the anachronic numbering section then that would help the process move smoother. I've taken part in the FLC process much in the past month and I've seen that objection come up many times. Other than that, I believe nothing else needs to be dealt with.--  十  八  07:33, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Do lists become GA nominees? Because while I don't think it's a Featured List candidate yet because of the citations, I definately think it could pass a Good Article nomination...Sbloemeke 11:00, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * EDIT: Nevermind. Just saw the GA criteria. I don't think it's ready for FL, but it's close.Sbloemeke 11:08, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * There's also the matter about the formatting of the table. The air dates on the right get repositioned depending on how long the episode title is and it makes the table look ugly currently. Can anyone fix this?--  十  八  11:10, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I toyed around with it a little bit. I think what needs to be done is add a new column "Original Air Date", where all the air dates go under. It's what they do in other lists. I'm going to explore around a bit.Sbloemeke 21:30, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I asked Ned Scott about the allignment issues, and he said it was an IE rendering problem, and I was amazed to see it all nice and orderly in firefox; sometimes I wonder why I use MSN to browse Wiki. *roll eyes* Anyway, I didn't think that the lack of a separate column for the air dates would matter for an FLC, so I've already renominated it.--  十  八  02:34, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, to be fair, Opera has the same issue. I've been trying to figure out a way to fix it. Basically, the table is cheating it's layout. Each episode row is one part table row, one part new table. That is, there's a separate table embedded into each row. This is how we're able to make the list sortable while still having one row on top of another (title/air date above summary). To align them the table cell is at a fixed width for air date, but title is left unfixed, so it can flex with the browser window being resized. I think I might just use percentages and see if that works better. -- Ned Scott 03:18, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Next Step:
So, now that we have the Melancholy split up into a general, a novel, and an anime, and fair stability, I think we should now look ahead. I see two major projects up and coming for this group. It may end up being different, but in my opinion, these are the two we should focus on:

1. Charecter Articles. These articles are mess quality, and need to be fixed up. We also need some sort of consistancy between them, as all of their layouts are completely different. Should we choose this, there's a whole bunch of steps.

2. Light Novels. We presently have 4 light novel articles, and only 1 of them (Melancholy) is at B level quality. I can probably fix up number 2 fairly shortly, as I should be finished with it soon enough. However, should we choose this, there are also a lot of tasks.

So, basically, in the long run, I'm looking to get all articles away from start class and towards B class. I'm in favor of doing it in individual parts, so start with one of the two, and when that's done, do the other. So, what do you all think?Sbloemeke 22:45, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that's a good place to start on both counts. I've never read any of the novels so I probably wouldn't be able to help on any of the light novel articles aside from copyediting. As for the character articles, there's a fair amount of spoilers in there that I would rather not come across if I had to, which is why I've mainly been neglecting them since their creation. If I started reading the novels I know I would be more help, but as it stands, I think copyediting and formatting is the best I can do.--  十  八  22:59, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Hm. That's basically what I was thinking. I think the biggest problem with the novels is that pretty much nobody has read them. Well, as I go along I'll fill in holes on it. I was thinking work on Charecters would be better myself.Sbloemeke 23:19, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The character articles need a concrete layout. Personality, background, plot synopsis, in other media, and other varied items would be a start. Thoughts? Sephiroth BCR (Converse)  02:41, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree with a couple of thos things. My idea for a charecter was a lead (of course), personality/background, SOS Brigade Role (Includes info on what they are and their relation to the story), and a section on their seiyus. Plot synopsi really do not belong in a charecter page, in my opinion.Sbloemeke 11:29, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * By plot synopsis, I was referring to their importance in terms of the plot, and any significant things they did in relation to it. Your SOS Brigade role fulfills the same purpose. And if appropiate, an "in other media" section could be included. Sephiroth BCR (Converse)  20:37, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Makes sense. I don't really like calling it plot synopsis, though, as charecters are not plot. Could we just call it "SOS Brigade Role" for good article purposes? I'm still hesitant on "In Other Media", but I'm open to it, nonetheless. Maybe it works.Sbloemeke 01:09, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * As to the naming, certaintly. "In other media" only becomes appropiate if it actually is useful. It does contribute towards passing GA criteria 3a (covering the major aspects) however. The biggest thing we need for these articles (considering that we want them to become GAs) is out-of-universe sources/references/reception/etc. Given the popularity of the Haruhi characters, however, I'm fairly certain that this is less of a problem. Sephiroth BCR (Converse)  06:15, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Of course. I don't think a reception section is needed, but I'd like to at least see what can be done. I'm going to start on Haruhi herself to make a template article, and I'll include this stuff.Sbloemeke 18:26, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Haruhi Suzumiya is now formatted correctly. I tried to clean it up a bit, but it still may not be.Sbloemeke 19:02, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

The content and section it was under didn't match. The Personality section had background info with very little to do with her personality. I corrected and redid most of the information separating the article into 3 parts. Background : then Personality : and SoS Brigade Role. I added a lot more info as well and left some out which is addressed in other pages of the site. If the content and format are alright, with permission I can go ahead and look over and revise the rest of the Characters to follow suit. Fox816
 * If you were to do the other articles, please take not that it is SOS Brigade not SoS. I had to change all these in the Haruhi Suzumiya article after your additions.--  十  八  04:38, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * SOS it is. I'll make sure to include it. Fox816 17:30, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Go ahead. :)Sbloemeke 20:48, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yuki page is redone. Cites are needed possibly. There should be a bit more from the novels, however, information is scarce.Fox816 07:09, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Mikuru page overhauled. Can anyone upload an image of the Older Mikuru for the Mikuru article? It would go under the Older self section. Thanks. I'm trying to find one suitable yet dont know full procedures of uploading it and meeting the wiki guidelines. still reading up on it. Fox816 06:09, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I would do it myself, but I can't get to that episode (10, anachronic) yet. If no one else does it by Saturday, it'll be up on that day.--  十  八  06:11, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I was hopin to get a screen capture myself but I can't find the episode with a high-resolution quality to make it look halfway decent.Fox816 05:28, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Just FYI, Adult Mikuru should not be a seperate section. It should be with other sections, just as the Agency and the Integrate Data Entity are/should be integrated with it. I'm going to make a quick change, but you may want to further change it.Sbloemeke 19:39, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

The Sigh of Haruhi Suzumiya
Could I have somebody copyedit this for me? I am not the best at writing, but more of spilling out ideas and structures. After that, I think it could be at least a "B" class article.Sbloemeke 18:28, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I do not believe any of the novel articles could be up to B class until something about reception is added to each of them. With only a Plot section as the main source of info in each of these articles right now, it's not much, and thus they are all at Start class.--  十  八  23:32, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Character articles
I believe the recent edits to Haruhi Suzumiya reflect a growing problem with these pages. I think most of what was added (especially the 'Relation with Kyon' section) was cruft, though I can't go through it right now and do a mass deletion on this basis alone. The point here is that these bios have a high propensity to be filled to the brim with fan cruft. Also, there seems to be a lot of "In episode x, this happened, and in episode y, this happened". This is not only confusing considering what system is used to denote the episodes (chronologically or anachronically) but it also is bad practice since the anime is not the source material, and the novels are. In short, anything that gives direct reference to the anime should either be kept low key, or be re-referenced to reflect which novel the information came from. However, this would not apply to the events of episode 9/14, "Someday in the Rain", since that was an anime-only story.--  十  八  04:40, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It is inevitable, given the popularity of the series, that it will receive a large amount of cruft given by fans. It simply has to be reverted on a case-to-case basis. Also, be bold and remove the material you believe is cruft. As I mentioned above, the character articles, especially if we want them to be GAs (or possibly an FA for the Haruhi article if we really try), need a consistent structure. This structure should be placed on the project page and become policy of sorts for Haruhi articles. Most of the material that is currently present is all in-universe, and any self-respecting GA reviewer would fail any nomination based on that criteria. As such, creation/conception, reception/popularity, and possibly in other media sections are required. The obvious difficulty is finding and sourcing the information, unless someone has such a source already. Sephiroth BCR (Converse)  04:49, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Pretty much, the person almost did a revert to the old form of the article, which we agreed was unacceptable. I reverted it back, though I don't have the time to take further steps.Sbloemeke 11:18, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Genres
Man, are there are a lot of entries in the genre field. I'd suggest trimming it down to Comedy and Sci-fi. Doceirias 20:20, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with this.--  十  八  23:52, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree also with this, except I don't think Supernatural should be removed. I see the reasonings for all of the ones present, but I feel this is foremost a Supernatural Sci Fi, then a comedy. Sbloemeke 00:39, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * But, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't sci-fi by definition something that is regarded as being supernatural?--  十  八  01:12, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The trickiness is that the sci-fi is debatable. Sci-Fi is the improbable made possible, such as time travel and aliens. Fantasy is the impossible made possible, AKA Haruhi being a god, or Koizumi being and Esper. These are fantasy concepts. I think it would be safer to call it "Supernatural" instead of Sci-Fi so as to avoid any possible arguments on this.Sbloemeke 19:48, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Supernatural is ghosts and horror elements. Nothing to do with psychic or divine powers, which are both common Sci-fi conceits. Doceirias 04:06, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, then Sci-Fi it is. Are you coming along with us, Doceirias?Sbloemeke 13:04, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Not full time, but since I appear to be the only native English speaker who's read the novels, I'll be adding the plot summaries as I read them. Put up Rashness/Rampage yesterday, so it'll be a few months before I read any more. Doceirias 22:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * When you do add them, make sure that you write the SOS Brigade, and not SOS Dan; same goes for referring to the characters by their given names.--  十  八  23:01, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Will do. I tend to refer to the characters by the name most often used in the novels, but if we prefer given names, that should be easy enough to remember. Doceirias 23:03, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm reading Rashness now, and will probably be reading book 6 in like 3 or 4 days. So, you probably won't need to.

"B" Class?
I guess I want to make a small review here. "B" class review. The following articles are up for review: Haruhi Suzumiya Mikuru Asahina Yuki Nagato

They are in OK shape prose wise, and are strong in all areas. They also are stable enough for this level. A lotof work still needs to be done, but I think we can upgrade them to "B" level at least. What does everyone else think? (Remember, this isn't GA review. Moderate flaws are acceptable, Major ones aren't)Sbloemeke 19:53, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The lead in all three needs to be expanded. Remember how the lead is meant to summerize the entire article briefly and give an overview of what the reader is going to encounter. One paragraph will suffice.--  十  八  20:28, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Lead as in...intro paragraph, before the Background section in this case, for the article? I can possibly work one up, however I tend to include too much info so if anyone can make one to preferred size I can work on the references for Yuki and Mikuru. Should I cite info based on DVD release in Japan/US or the novels? The DVD US release is underway and EP00-03 is available. I'd rather go with the novels except the content isn't translated except for a few fansites (wiki.sos-dan > Links under Fan Sites English | Baka-Tsuki Translation Project) although credibility is a question. I can essentially go through the fan translations, find the chapter where the info should be, then cite the novel provided I can find all the info to do so. Fox816 01:32, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Generally, the source material should be the backbone of the cites, so if you're going to be working on cites, I'd say cite the novels the information is in with cite book. And yes the lead must be expanded. I'll see if I can pull up a draft for an expanded lead for Haruhi Suzumiya this weekend if no one does it before me. I have some minor experience working with the Kanon character articles for reference.--  十  八  02:49, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Lead expanded in Haruhi Suzumiya. Now can we upgrade it to B class? It has everything.Sbloemeke 21:42, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Looks good. I performed a copyedit and upgraded the class to B. Now to just do it for the other 4 articles.--  十  八  23:02, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll fix the grammar and sentences a little to make it "smoother" for the reader. Overall it looks great. I'll fix the Kyon and Itsuki articles later this week. I haven't had much time lately. And since the lead has the information about the voice actresses, should the VA section be taken out?...or atleast for the Haruhi article the information about her award winning performance be placed in the lead instead? Fox816 00:16, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I honestly do not know. For now, I am not too concerned about it. Once all 5 articles are up to "B" class I'd pay attention to it. But for now, I'm more concerned of streamlining the articles and getting them to "B" class. I'll get Nagato and Mikuru up to "B" class like tommorow.Sbloemeke 02:16, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Nagato
I just finished work on the Nagato lead. If someone could copyedit it, I'd appreciate it. Then it should be "B" class. But it needs a ton of references after this step. Does anyone know where to find these references?Sbloemeke 13:04, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I tried to copyedit and expand it to the length of the Haruhi Suzumiya article, but User:Sephiroth BCR reverted me and now the lead is once again inadequate. I take it up here since he/she is a member of this work group.--  十  八  02:11, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, I took a little look at the Nagato article. The lead has a good amount of information in it, basically the same as the Haruhi article has. All it needs is a little bit of extra wording to make it adequate.Sbloemeke 11:50, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Notice that Haruhi's lead is a full paragraph where as Yuki's is smaller and does not supply an adequate overview of the entire article. It has to be expanded.--  十  八  12:07, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I condensed the lead since most of the material belonged in the body. I'll expand it a little for your purposes if you want. In any case, all of these articles need out-of-universe information. Anyone want to dig up character creation/development/conception, reception, and in other media references? Anything really will do - at this point there is no out-of-universe information besides the voice actors. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 22:34, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I've cleaned up the Yuki Nagato article. Feel free to promote it. And as stated above, out-of-universe information would be highly appreciated. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 23:15, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, I promoted it. The article definately needs some OOU perspective, and that is probably the first thing I want to look for after all the other charecter articles are B class. Asahina Mikuru is next in the lead. Sbloemeke 01:42, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The point I'm making is that condensing a lead just because "most of the material belonged in the body" goes against what a lead is meant to do. Take a look at WP:LEAD where it states that the lead is meant to stand alone and be an overview of the article. In this respect, the lead is meant to be repetitive, but is that way so anyone that wants a quick overview of the article can just read the lead instead of having to go through the article; that is why leads exist.--  十  八  01:44, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps I was unclear. The lead is a summary, and some material is better placed in the body and included as part of a general summary in the lead. In any case, let's stop bickering and move onto the other articles. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 03:52, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I've been looking over some character articles that are Good or Featured status on how to revert to an out-of-universe perspective. It would be helpful if there was more information or interviews regarding the series to include, however, a fair amount can still be done to do it. No matter how you look at it, the three articles will need a fair overhaul. Fox816 23:45, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Definately. Remember, 2 of them just barely became B class, and the last one should become B class soon, but it isn't. There's a wide range in the B class status. I'll edit Asahina as soon as I get back from graduation rehearsal.Sbloemeke 13:51, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Mikuru
I finished the lead there. It needs a copyedit (My grammar is aweful, sorry. :) ), but I think it's good enough for "B" class.Sbloemeke 17:00, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

List of Haruhi Suzumiya cast members
Why does this article exist? It should be part of a List of Haruhi Suzumiya media (which might need to be created in the future if Haruhi Suzumiya (franchise) is to be an FA) or be incorporated elsewhere. It's not even linked to by the current Haruhi template. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 05:21, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It was automatically created after the category for the Haruhi Suzumyia cast members was deleted. I motion to just delete the article as it serves as repetitive information already found in List of characters in the Haruhi Suzumiya series.--  十  八  07:23, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. Feel free to set an Afd for it. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 06:21, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm just going to redirect it to the characters article then.--  十  八  07:28, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

List of Haruhi Suzumiya albums and List of Haruhi Suzumiya character song albums
I've provided some minor fixes to the images for both, and noticed that both of these lists could be made into FLs fairly easily with the right amount of effort. An expanded intro, inclusion of references for release dates, run times, etc for each album, and reception for each would be sufficient. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 05:21, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * All of the albums already have run times as far as I can tell. And I do not know if it would be that easy. There's a bunch of guidelines that go along with album articles found at WP:Album, and I've never tried to bring a list of albums to an FL (and have never seen one promoted to FL to boot), so I don't really know where to start. What you said to include may work, but then finding all the information and reception for each album would be daunting to say the least.--  十  八  07:34, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh God, that would be extremely hard. It's doable, no doubt, I'm just not going to do it myself, yet. It's hard enough to get those things. But there is not a single list of albums on Wikipedia to my knowledge that is FA class.Sbloemeke 23:39, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Haruhi Suzumiya (franchise)
OK, before I make these changes, I want to just post it here and have a chance of input. My plan is to move everything that is now under "Series Concepts" to a new page called "Organizations in Haruhi Suzumiya". This would also include the counter SOS brigade and opposing entities that I will eventually read up in Volume 9 (Assuming Baka-Suki translates it quick enough.) Also, I want to get a few new charecter pictures to put tiny thumbnails next to each charecter in the "Characters" section. The prose for each will also be expanded a tiny bit, but nothing extensive. Just their name, cardinal trait, affiliation, and maybe something random would do. Last, I think the lead picture and infobox needs to be changed. I looked around at GA class franchise pages, and it generally has a large vertical picture and details on every version of the product made in infobox form. At the point that is done, I believe that a copyedit would be enough to nominate to GA class. What are your opinions?Sbloemeke 23:45, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree on the naming of the new article. Haruhi Suzumiya is not only the title character's name, but is shorthand for the series as a whole, so in order to avoid something that is ambiguous, why not have it be Organizations in the Haruhi Suzumiya series? This would follow the title convention already in use at List of characters in the Haruhi Suzumiya series. I'm fine with everything else, but would you please provide these GA franchise articles you are referencing? I've never seen any before.--  十  八  01:14, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Bleh. Why did the series get cut off? It was supposed to say that. Planetes, Sailor Moon, Kanon, and Death Note are all good articles that have what I was saying. A little charecter detail, the variations, the sidebars, etc. I'm noticing a lot have series concepts in them, but not to the point of this article where we list the organizations and provide a blurb about them.Sbloemeke 02:12, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Wait a second here. The articles you cited just provide a general overview of the entire material, but those are different from this one since Haruhi Suzumiya doesn't really have a center, aside from the light novels, but then the fandom mainly came from the anime's creation. I meant other articles that had the (franchise) disambig in their title, like Dragon Ball (franchise). Having had a big part in the Kanon article, I can say right now that would probably not be a good template to go off of since that article is built around the visual novel that the series originated from; that is the "center" I speak of which Haruhi seems to lack of. But having also had taken part in the GA review of Sailor Moon, I'd say I can see what you mean about the development and how it should be organized.--  十  八  03:07, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * What do you mean a center?Sbloemeke 22:38, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * By a "center," he is referring to the most prominent aspect of a given franchise. For instance, the anime of a franchise might be the most visible and well-known aspect of a given franchise. However, for the Haruhi series, the light novels are as notable as the anime, and on FA-class anime articles such as Madlax and Excel Saga, their primary feature is the anime, which much of the article is geared to. However, this is not the case with the Haruhi series, hence this article must be written differently. See my post below for details. Sephiroth BCR  ( Converse ) 22:44, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * There's still no general overall reception, development (which also discusses the transitions occuring between the light novels, anime, manga, etc), and themes of the series. A larger plot summary is necessary, outlining any differences between the plot of the previously mentioned installments. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 02:20, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Season Two Coverage
It's been made official in Newtype of Season Two. How should coverage on this proceed? Fox816 23:25, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I do not know. I have a bunch of jumbled ideas in my head. The first is to actually do nothing. It is fine as is. However, that presents an issue, as the article is very focused at point on the 1st season. Another idea is a seperate section for each season as a start, but that would most likely lose its GA status. A third idea is to make it less specific to the first season anime and just to the story as a whole.

Here's what I know from unreliable sources:
 * It will be titled "The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya" still.
 * The main storyline will be based off of "Disappearance"
 * By Kyoto Animation
 * Starts either this winter or the begginning of 2008
 * Story composition will be 6 "Disappearence" episodes, Snow Mountain Syndrome, Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody, Charmed at first sight LOVER, Endless Eight, 2 episodes of Editor in Chief Straight ahead, and 2 original. However, there may be 2 episodes of "Sighs" put in place of two of the episodes. Sbloemeke 00:21, 8 July 2007 (UTC)


 * No reason starting an article for season two would lose GA status on the original article. There's precedence for having new articles for new seasons - look at Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex 2nd Gig. Especially when the original season was intended to be stand alone.
 * But there isn't much official information yet. A stub page now, so that people would know to put second season information there as it comes available, and carefully monitoring to make sure the information is sourced and verifiable, and not just wild rumor. (ANN has a bad habit of translating things wrong, so someone checking the Japanese sources as well would help.) Doceirias 00:39, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The news was spread over several leaked scans from Newtype (meaning not just ANN translation). I suggest just updating as information comes along and only allowing the most necessary info to pass. Then using examples like what Doceirias provided we can figure out how to go on further and keep GA status.Fox816 00:49, 8 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Those Newtype scans contained little of the information above, particularly what stories it will be covering. That was my real point. Doceirias 01:06, 8 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh, I hadn't even thought of starting a second article. I say go for it. :)Sbloemeke 01:11, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I've been looking over the (anime) article and it wouldn't be that much of a problem to integrate information on the second season (given the larger picture). Separate articles would be good for organization but ultimately a single article would be better. An overall aspect of the anime then sections devoted to both seasons perhaps. We're just adding on and rearranging.Fox816 01:15, 8 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The main reason to do separate articles would be spoilers - as the first season comes out here and brings in new fans, who come to read the article not expecting information about the second season. Obviously, this could be worked around, but with the sheer popularity of the series things will slip through. It might be easier to have two articles until both seasons have been translated, and then to merge them when both articles have settled into a final form if we feel that would be the better choice. Doceirias 01:19, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * True...if we can have both at GA then during the merge 1 + 1 = TADA...FA status....or so I wish.Fox816 01:29, 8 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Heck, even without the spoiler issue, the first season article has settled into a pretty final form, and it should be easier from an administrative standpoint to keep all the flurry of changes, arguments, misinformation and speculation that inevitably follows a series this popular in a separate article. Doceirias 01:31, 8 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not so sure a separate article would be a good thing. For one, there is not enough information to constitute another article, and even if there was, I thought the earlier plan was to rename The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya (anime) to simply Haruhi Suzumiya (anime) when the second season started. This would consolidate the information, and if I may, be more logical because the two seasons are going to be strikingly similar in content and layout, so there's not going to be some huge difference between the two, and consolidation makes it easier on the reader. Information already in the anime article, such as plot/characters, and setting, would be pretty much copy-paste information, and even the information about the new episodes and new music aren't going to eclipse those sections already present in the anime article. We could consolidate the information into one article by specifying when the first or second season was in question. Luckily there is already an article that takes this approach. See Kanon and look under the anime section to see kind of what I mean to do, except it would be on a much larger scale since it would have to encompass an entire article.


 * Another choice would be to create an overview article of the anime entitled Haruhi Suzumiya (anime) and then have the two anime articles branch out of that one, much like how we currently have Haruhi Suzumiya (light novels) and then the individual light novel articles are linked to that article in a list. If we did this, the overview article could have information pertaining to both seasons, such as differences between the two, and a section that provided a general overview of each season. However, if there wasn't enough information to constitute this, the content could then simply go in Haruhi Suzumiya (franchise) in the anime sub section, but even that may be bad because it would balloon the anime sub section in the Adaptations section.


 * And then there's also the issue on the name. If the second season is indeed still called The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya and just has a "season 2" or the like tacked onto the end, it would make more sense to keep it all in one article, and as I said, the two seasons are not going to be vastly different by any standards.--  十  八  01:54, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Not one, not two, but three different games
After finding some new information on the video games, I have found that there will be three of them developed by three companies playable on three consoles. How long should we wait before starting a Haruhi Suzumiya (video games) article?--  十  八  15:00, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Let's wait until they release more information on it possibly when word of release dates. Fox816 00:02, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Esper
Is there any particular reason we're using this word? The original Japanese does not use it (it uses 超能力者, not エスパー) and the official translations use psychic, right? (Not actually owning them, I can't verify that.) Is the word only there because that's what the fansubs said? Doceirias 21:44, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It most likely is due to the fansubs. If you think it's not an accurate discription of what Itsuki and his organization are, then you can change it (though I bet there'll be constant revert edits to change it back to esper due to popular opinion, much like the Raising/Raging Heart of the Nanoha series).--  十  八  12:13, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Fansubs and fan translations all use esper. The English adaption also uses esper. I think it's just common practice in the translations.Sbloemeke 13:39, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The word could indeed be translated as psychic, but esper (ESPer) is what fans seem to prefer and is more descriptive of what Itsuki does anyways. The official english translation as per the R1 DVD anime release is "esper". Amusingly, the first episode of the ASOSBrigade videos had "psychic" in the dialogue but this was changed (through subtitles). The confusion lay in that "esper" is not a real word in many dictionaries, so does one go with "psychic" which is a dictionary word, or "esper" which is more geared towards the scifi community but may not be recognized as a proper english (American) word. In this particular case, the decision was made to give a nod to the sf fans and keep it as "esper".Lord Richard 02:37, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Light novels
Seeing as the chances of one of the light novels reaching GA status is relatively slim (unless someone can pull reception, development, and other out-of-universe sources), then perhaps they should be merged into a List of Haruhi Suzumiya light novels? The Haruhi Suzumiya (light novels) article would still address the series as a whole similar to how The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya (anime) addresses the anime series represented by List of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya episodes. This would make it easier to manage the articles, and possibly allow for an FL if anyone cares to improve the article enough. Food for thought. Discuss. Sephiroth BCR ( Converse ) 06:48, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * We aren't really going to get reception until the novels get released in English. We could always split the list back to individual articles later on if it looks like they might be able to stand on their own. I've been making similar novel lists on the Baccano! and Missing (novel) pages. Doceirias 06:59, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree. I was actually thinking about doing many months back, even before this task force was formed but didn't go through with it as I didn't have any extra information on any of the books beyond the first. If we do this, are we going to keep the individual infoboxes?--  十  八  10:06, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I completely agree with everything above. The 1st comment on the lack of reception until the books are released into English is probably the most true. However, I have not heard of anything close to an official English translation being released here. Besides that, the books are barely even notable as a standalone, and are just surviving because they've been adapted into an anime.
 * The list seems like a fine idea. Sbloemeke 12:00, 9 August 2007 (UTC) (Oh, and by the way, I've been AWOL because of college stuff.)
 * I noticed the example tables at Baccano! and Missing (novel) that Doceirias supplied, but were we planning on doing that exact thing with the Haruhi novels? I thought we were just going to place each of the headings under each novel title, so we keep the infoboxes and plot sub headings, sort of how List of Haruhi Suzumiya albums is formatted.--  十  八  21:06, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think we should. I reigniting this discussion, because the articles cannot stand well by themselves. We should make it like the list of soundtracks, and have a good chunk of information on it. If you are in favor of this, post here. If you are opposed, also post here. I want to get this step finished. Vote before Wednesday, please, as I want to make changes on Thursday.Sbloemeke 01:26, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm in favor of doing it like the soundtracks are formatted.--  十  八  02:38, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Getting back to this (rather late I might add, I've been rather busy lately), there seems to be a general consensus in favor. Anyone can feel free to merge them as they see fit. Sephiroth BCR  ( Converse ) 01:23, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Done.-  十  八  02:17, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Haruhi Theater and Season 2 Promotional Videos
Haruhi Theater (Act 1 & Act 2) is not mentioned in any of the Haruhi articles, and the anime article doesn't mention the recent promotional online videos for the second season. Did this group decide not to include these things (weren't they note-worthy enough?), or were you simply not aware of them? I've been hesitant about editing the articles because of my lack of knowledge (I haven't read Theater and I've only seen blog posts about the videos), but I can do some research on these if I have the time. Is that okay? focoma 16:49, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I know of one promotional live-action video for the second season, but are there more? And what exactly is Haruhi Theater?--  十  八  20:40, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * They are side stories written by the author. They are 75% translated at Baka-Tsuki, however, I had not heard of them before then. They are also incomplete, like the series. I don't know if they are notable or not.Sbloemeke 00:55, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
 * They are uncollected short stories that ran in Sneaker, apparently. According to the Japanese wikipedia. Doceirias 01:51, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Oops, sorry. Yes, there was only one promotional video for season two. I got confused by the YouTube videos, which were simply parts of one whole video. focoma 04:43, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I've heard of the Haruhi Theater Acts from it being mentioned at the Baka-Tsuki site. Although, we can't use that site as a legitimate source (only an External Link I suppose). The HTAs should be mentioned in the Haruhi Franchise section, possibly under the novels?, so you can go ahead and add it in if you haven't already. So far I haven't heard of any promo vids yet but I'll check the Tube. We can add this stuff in as we come across it. Sometimes it's a bit late for us to take notice so we hope that other editors who already seen it can put the stuff in if we haven't already.Fox816 00:26, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * We can't use that site at all. Ever. Frankly, regardless of legal issues, their translations are criminally bad and should be avoided at all costs. Doceirias 00:34, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The site cannot be used as a source. However, it is a good site to read the story and work on plot details here, quoting the originals as sources.Sbloemeke 11:06, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Lucky Star 24:
Just a guess on my part, but for information on Haruhi Season 2, I'd really consider watching Lucky Star 24 this Sunday. From past Kyoto animations, they tend to do some announcement in the "Next Episode" segment. Since I do not think they'll want to plan for next fall (Hopefully next winter, for that means Clannad will be a nice long series), I can only think of one announcement: Haruhi. Haruhi Season 2 in my opinion will have its first screen shots in LS 24. Just be on the lookout. Sbloemeke 01:47, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not so sure, but I won't dismiss the possibility considering what happened at the end of Kanon last March with the Clannad announcement. But that was when we didn't even know KyoAni was going to be doing a Clannad anime, and we already know the second season has been confirmed for Haruhi. In that case, they may in fact make an annoucement for the next season of Full Metal Panic! considering that just a couple of episodes ago there was a conversation between Kagami and Konata about when the next FMP! anime would be produced. In any case, we'll know in five days.--  十  八  04:18, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Dablink
I'm not so sure if the redirect to the list is the best idea. It might be better off redirecting The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya to the anime version instead, like the IP on the list page said. - Penwhale &#124; Blast him / Follow his steps 13:41, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I suppose that makes more sense since the anime is more well known and licensed in English to boot. I'll change it now and add a dablink at the top of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya (anime).--  十  八  21:32, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

WP:FICT has been revised
WP:FICT, the notability guideline for elements within a work of fiction (characters, places, elements, etc) has a new proposal/revision that is now live Everyone is encouraged to leave feedback on the talk page. Ned Scott 22:05, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Notability (serial works)
There is a proposal to split WP:EPISODE into a more general notability guideline, Notability (serial works), and make the rest of WP:EPISODE just a MOS guideline. Please join in at WT:EPISODE and/or Wikipedia talk:Notability (serial works). -- Ned Scott 22:05, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Haruhi Suzumiya (anime) genres
I've recently created Category:Comedy-drama anime and manga. Would it be okay to add the series to said category?--Nohansen (talk) 21:19, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * No. It is not a drama. Very, very few things really have the balance of drama and comedy worth adding to your new category, and there are already a bunch of things in there that shouldn't be. One Piece, for instance. Doceirias (talk) 22:25, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Suzumiya Haruhi no Seitenkan
I have to say I'm a bit shocked not seeing any mention whatever in any article to the fan project The Genderbending of Haruki Suzumiya. This being massively popular online. Is this an omission by intent? 217.132.55.202 (talk) 21:03, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Doujin projects are considered not notable...barring mainstream media coverage. If the creators were sued for copyright infringement, it might warrant a mention, but otherwise... Doceirias (talk) 22:30, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Or if an anime/OVA is made from it. ;) --  十  八  05:41, 9 October 2008 (UTC)