Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Astronomical objects/Archive 27

"720 light years from Earth" ?
While translating in French KOI-7923.01 and creating the Wikidata elements of the star and its candidate exoplanet, I've noticed somebody added a distance of the system from Earth, but I can't find this number in any source, especially the original paper announcing the discovery or the NASA Exoplanet Archive data. What should I do about this information? Should I just remove it or did I missed another academic paper that estimated these 720 light years specifically?

PS: the first source is from a website requoting the Daily Mail, that seems to only quote the New Scientist.J. N. Squire (talk) 00:16, 8 November 2017 (UTC)


 * I would look the star up in the Gaia DR1 or TGAS catalogues and enter the parallax into the star infobox, which automatically calculates the distance. However, the whole article seems premature to me. The paper announcing the discovery of this planet has not yet been published in a peer-reviewed journal, it's just a preprint. It would be better to wait until there is definitive information available before creating the article. Modest Genius talk 10:53, 8 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Star is KOI-7923 or KIC 9084569 here[] and you can find some of the star info here.[] Planet info is found here[]. To find distance, you'll have to convert J-K magnitudes (11.028-10.478=+0.550) to B-V (+0.94) to V mag (0.94-0.62=0.32+11.028=12.58 or 12.6) - assuming a solar-like star. (As position is centred on GSC 3543:2683 at RA: 19h 20m 47.98s Dec: +45° 25' 12.6", and is stated as 12.7 magnitude, the result is true.) Using this, distance is using first formulae Absolute magnitude, assuming the absolute magnitude of the Sun / star is +4.83, 374.97 pc. or 1223 light-years, or 370pc. or 1200 light years.
 * As the NASA Kepler site uses their calculation based on stellar model 'q1_q17_dr25_stellar', finds star mass of 0.856 sol, radius 0.889 sol, effective temperature of 5060K (Sun is 5870K), the star is less luminous than the Sun. So if the original calculated distance is 720 ly (220.7pc), then the absolute magnitude would be +5.98 - corresponding well to a main sequence K0V star. Arianewiki1 (talk) 01:38, 9 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Note: The original paper notes (pg.26), the errors for the whole data set is a pretty big at 37.2%. Also "For FGK dwarf stars only, the reliability is 50.3%...for planets in the longest period." Also under 'Caveats' (pg.34) it says "As follow-up observations of each candidate star is obtained and errors on the stellar parameters decrease, we expect this population to change in significant ways." They also include in summary (pg.37) "Namely, errors in the stellar parameters result in significant errors on the planetary sizes and orbital distances, and unaccounted for background stars make planet radii appear smaller than reality and impact the detection limit of the search for all stars." I'd say create the article, but explain the errors and that confirmation is still required here. Killing all 'absolutes' is important, which is already being met in the translating in French on KOI-7923.01. Arianewiki1 (talk) 02:17, 9 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Some other references Stellar data here Distance should be found here, but returns "No data found in this region." Arianewiki1 (talk) 03:12, 9 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Attempting to calculate the distance based on photometry and an assumed spectral type is a terrible idea - you don't know the intrinsic colours, nor the interstellar extinction. That calculation is likely to be hideously inaccurate. Hence why I suggested consulting the Gaia catalogue. Modest Genius talk 10:56, 9 November 2017 (UTC)


 * There is no current available Gaia data for this star. Also there is no interstellar extinction in the stellar model 'q1_q17_dr25_stellar'. Saying "...you don't know the intrinsic colours." We do. These are J-K and H-K as per SIMBAD and NASA Exoplanet data. As for "That calculation is likely to be hideously inaccurate", well of course it is - that is exactly the point - its a ballpark figure. Yet if the temperature of 5060K is true, then this corresponds to a main sequence K0 star and absolute magnitude of +6.0 and is fairly accurate. ~2%-3% . Note: If extinction for the star is 0.76 magnitudes (b=14.18), then distance becomes 313.3pc or 1020 light-years. Arianewiki1 (talk) 23:16, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Per WP:CALC, Wikipedia allows routine calculations; hence why the Starbox can perform distance calculations based upon parallax. However, deducing the distance based upon photometry and spectral type is definitely not a routine calculation. Instead it needs to be properly cited using a reliable source. Praemonitus (talk) 17:20, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Agreed this is likely synthesis but it is far from original research, just Astrophysics 101, and does uses WP preexisting articles. So why did I calculate this? It just shows that the 720 light-years is valid and not fiction.
 * As for saying: "However, deducing the distance based upon photometry and spectral type is definitely not a routine calculation." Yet it is, and is routinely done. This is clear reading articles on Spectroscopic parallax, Photometric parallax method and Distance modulus. Example of the simple calculation is this or (A useful reference here is: "An Introduction to Distance Measurement in Astronomy" pg.50-55 by Richard de Grijs (2011)
 * Ah no. What you're referring to is routinely performed by professional astronomers yes, but not by the general public. It's definitely not in the same boat as converting Fahrenheit to Centigrade. See the examples at WP:CALC. There's no consensus here yet for including this type of calculation, and from what I've witnessed in the past there appears to be opposition here to the idea of doing so. Praemonitus (talk) 20:27, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
 * How the Kepler distance calculations are achieved appears here pg.3 Para 2. & pg.7. Kepler photometric models appear here
 * I also note that stars like Kepler-186 state distance, but this is not cited. If "Instead it needs to be properly cited using a reliable source.", then should remove it? Worst, distance is 151±18 pc, but the exoplanet page now gives 172+13-10 or even 162+13.5-11.2. What to use? Arianewiki1 (talk) 03:12, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
 * This definitely counts as WP:OR. Calculating distances from parallax is straightforward: a simple formula with no further assumptions. However those based on photometry rely upon a whole bunch of assumptions regarding adopted spectral type, intrinsic colours, extinction curves, transformations between photometric systems etc. That's far beyond WP:CALC (the mere fact that we're having this discussion demonstrates that there is no "consensus among editors that the result of the calculation is obvious, correct"). Wikipedia should leave that distance determination to the peer-reviewed literature and only use photometric distances when backed up by an explicit citation. Yes, these should be removed from other articles if not adequately referenced. Modest Genius talk 12:52, 13 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Please stop all this rhetorical hyperbole, especially when it is crystal clear to me not comprehended the real nature of photometric distances. e.g. Crazily stating "Attempting to calculate the distance based on photometry and an assumed spectral type is a terrible idea - you don't know the intrinsic colours, nor the interstellar extinction."
 * Considering before 2015 that nearly all stellar distances beyond about 400 parsecs are photometric distances. Berating me (an experienced WP Editor) because here is no required cite isn't my problem. Moreover, at no time have I modified the article in question, and I've never said that my calculated results should be used.
 * Really in saying "However those based on photometry rely upon a whole bunch of assumptions regarding adopted spectral type, intrinsic colours, extinction curves, transformations between photometric systems etc." just makes you look silly. Using just the standard and simple formula from Absolute magnitude, where 'm'= apparent magnitude and 'M' = absolute magnitude - a routine calculation. e.g.
 * $${d }\mathrm{(pc.)}=\left(\sqrt{100^{\frac{m-M}{5}}}\right)\times{10}$$
 * So why do you need "adopted spectral type, intrinsic colours, extinction curves" ??? You actually don't! (Using spectrophotometric parallax distances is often used for Kepler stars - and these calculate mass, radius and age - being what is quoted in the cited data - but are importantly independent of the photometric parallax distance. [ Do read this article if need be. ] Evidence of a solar-like star gives the approximate absolute magnitude. Using 'K' magnitudes are because IR extinction are very small c.0.02 magnitudes. e.g. The conversion of magnitudes from J or K to V derive within 0.1 of the corresponding and confirmed magnitude with its GSC mag +12.7, whose error is ±0.2 mag. Hence, these particular additional assumptions that are actually not needed.)
 * Amazingly, using the above equation, with mag 12.7v and absolute magnitude (MV) of +5.87 gives 720.25 or 720 pc.
 * The question was "Should I just remove it or did I missed another academic paper that estimated these 720 light years specifically?" We can cite either "the first source is from a website requoting the Daily Mail, that seems to only quote the New Scientist." Considering the 50% Kepler errors, any basic calculation shows this 720 light-years is likely valid. Hence, it is probably OK to cite that source. Arianewiki1 (talk) 07:25, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Sorry, calculating a distance based on absolute and apparent magnitudes a) only works if you know the extinction, which depends on the reddening, adopted extinction curve and intrinsic colours; and b) requires accurately knowing the absolute magnitude, which itself depends on spectral types, stellar models etc. You can deride me as silly if you like (although that's probably a personal attack, but I have a PhD in astronomy and know how this works. It's common in the peer-reviewed literature, but not a trivial calculation for an encyclopaedia. Stick to parallaxes or distances that are directly cited from references. It's also good practice to include the uncertainty in any distance quoted.
 * Of course you could just take the pi_iso from Table 1 of that Johnson et al. paper and invert it to get physical distance, that's a trivial calculation as long as the pi_iso value is cited. However KOI 7923 is not in their catalogue. Modest Genius talk 10:52, 14 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Considering the errors, saying: ...only works if you know the extinction, which depends on the reddening, adopted extinction curve and intrinsic colours is mostly irrelevant. I.e. Just having a K magnitude removes much of these issues - and you still fail to recognise this - or "Hence why I suggested consulting the Gaia catalogue" when no data actually exists.
 * Furthermore, you originally stated: "Attempting to calculate the distance based on photometry and an assumed spectral type is a terrible idea - you don't know the intrinsic colours, nor the interstellar extinction." and also "However those based on photometry rely upon a whole bunch of assumptions regarding adopted spectral type, intrinsic colours, extinction curves, transformations between photometric systems etc." Then now later say the exact opposite (notably after I've point out the Johnston et al. paper and how Kepler parameters and distances are obtained): "What you're referring to is routinely performed by professional astronomers yes, but not by the general public."
 * As for boldly saying: "...but I have a PhD in astronomy and know how this works." actually works heavily against you. Are you implying here your statements are somehow better just to trump your own 'opinion'? Direct evidence from you're own previous obfuscatory words and obvious lack of topic knowledge does readily suggest significant problems towards being WP:Honest.
 * By continued to show unwillingness to recognise (for the third time) me saying. "Considering the 50% Kepler errors, any basic calculation shows this 720 light-years is likely valid. Hence, it is probably OK to cite that source." All I've done is tried to validate the quoted/cited distance. Whatever I calculate is irrelevant if it cannot be cited, but it can be used to validate d cited sources. Arianewiki1 (talk) 01:21, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I understand what you're saying, and your calculation may even be correct. But it is *not* a routine calculation for an encyclopaedia article. It doesn't matter whether your distance is 'likely valid' or not. The fact is that this is a complex calculation requiring detailed understanding of the topic, which is beyond the scope of WP:CALC and into WP:OR. My statements are not contradictory. This should not be used to report distances in Wikipedia articles - stick to trigonometric parallaxes or directly cited distances from published papers. I'm not going to waste any more time trying to explain this to you. Modest Genius talk 11:54, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Saying "I understand what you're saying, and your calculation may even be correct." then end saying "I'm not going to waste any more time trying to explain this to you." Explain what??? (Just another slap in the face attempt?) This is a further example of defending the immutable fact that you either have little concept of the subject, or you are seemingly arguing your POV just for ego's sake of not being proven wrong –– even in the face of me repeatably saying the still requirement / need of a valid cite. Sure saying "My statements are not contradictory." might be true, but that is no guarantee that they are actually correct.
 * As for "The fact is that this is a complex calculation requiring detailed understanding of the topic, which is beyond the scope of WP:CALC and into WP:OR." is silly, because your bleating seems more towards me daring to understand and calculate it. I.e. By openly telling me "stick to trigonometric parallaxes" when you perfectly now know none exists, leaving the only logical option to use a generalised photometric parallax. Yet even when understanding the principle and the logic of the calculation yourself, in light of references telling you how it is formally done, you steadfastly stick to some limited immutable paradigm – all in just defending your own alleged proficiencies. Pity you can't see that. Arianewiki1 (talk) 01:17, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Speaking as another astronomer, I have to agree with Modest Genius and Praemonitus: photometric distances are usually ok for ensembles of stars, but not very trustworthy for individual stars, and they're certainly too much for WP:CALC. There's a whole field of astronomy dedicated to getting them right, and they are by no means a "routine calculation". Either use a distance from a reliable source, find the star in the Gaia catalog, or don't include a distance. - Parejkoj (talk) 19:51, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Wow, this is a hell of a thing to show up on my watchlist. Wikipedia rules aside, sometimes a calculated value is more important than having some kind of "reliable" source. Photometric distance is not a 100% definite science, but it's often accurate enough for approximations. If you have a value, and the rough means to attain that value, I see no reason why the value should not be listed as "[value]* *Estimated using X method". In a similar vein, I could say that, if a star has a temperature of 3000 Kelvin, it would probably be a red dwarf. Not a definite definition by any means, of course prone to various errors, but saying that something is a highly technical X value, without making reasonable conclusions from it that would be more meaningful to the reader, is leaving out data that has no business being left out. But that's just my two cents. exoplanetaryscience (talk) 23:20, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Again. "All I've done is tried to validate the quoted/cited distance. Whatever I calculate is irrelevant if it cannot be cited, but it can be used to validate cited sources." No argument. As for:
 * Photometric distances, they are often used where no other methods are available, and are best only with solar-like stars.
 * Quoted 720 light-years is probably photometric, though the errors might be +50%. (Validation in this case is greatly help by the independently derived Teff, radius and mass.)
 * Popularising the story with a distance is often used solely by the media, even though it maybe wildly out.
 * Notably, trignonmetric and photometric parallaxes are often quoted together, where high differences suggest some kind of data problems.
 * Not interested in any last word. Thanks. Arianewiki1 (talk) 23:57, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
 * It depends on how you define "importance". This is an encyclopedia, not a medium for posting original thoughts, calculations, or research. (WP:5P2, WP:VERIFY, WP:FORUM, WP:NOR) If you think it's important, then I suggest you pursue having it published in a peer reviewed scientific journal so it can be used here. Otherwise, you'll just have to wait like the rest of us for the scientific community to generate and publish the data. Sorry. Finally, I suggest you take a look at WP:EQ and consider how it applies to our discussions. Praemonitus (talk) 02:49, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

JPL Horizons is an unreliable source
There is a discussion going on at Talk:ʻOumuamua to prevent the use of JPL Horizons to compute anything on Wikipedia. This action could do serious harm to the computation of the orbital period of Oort Cloud comets. For Oort cloud comets the orbit *MUST* be computed at epochs when the comet is outside the planetary region (say epoch 1950 and epoch 2050). A generic link to the JPL Small-Body Database or the Minor Planet Center will be unreliable as it will be defined while inside the planetary system, near perihelion, as a generic one-size-fits-all solution. Perhaps most the important section is the Threaded discussion were it looks like someone is trying to create a Wiki-wide policy. -- Kheider (talk) 18:30, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Question regarding templates
For the purpose of adding WikiProject Astronomy templates to features on astronomical objects such as craters or mountains, is it correct to add the Astronomical Object subheading? Or is the definition of an AO strictly the body itself, and not a feature or part of the body? Thanks. Jusdafax (talk) 05:09, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
 * For these I just add WP Solar System with moon=yes (or Venus or Mars=yes). And I don't add the WP Astronomy. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 06:43, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Order of Orbital elements in Infobox Planets Template
I encountered during the edit Mercury and was discussed My argument was that perihelion is first and aphelion is second, as it is the basis of the 7th orbital element - set at the epoch. However, the Template:Infobox planet places Aphelion first and Perihelion last. e.g. Mercury Example of.


 * Here: "Perihelion and aphelion are opposites, but in astronomical usage, perihelion also defines the set time (epoch) of the orientation of the orbit (and also calculating orbits from orbital elements like planets or binary stars), and therefore should always be first. Hence, "...so at perihelion, Mercury is about 1.5 times closer to the Sun than at aphelion." Saying "...so at aphelion, Mercury's distance to the Sun is about 1.5 times that at perihelion." ignores the convention. Grammatically what you say is right, but it in this instance, is overridden by this convention."


 * The convention for Planets / Dwarf planets follow something like this, where it is Epoch then Perhelion 'q'.


 * The convention is ordered for /minor planets use like, using the letter 'q'.

All these related infoboxes have these mixed up too,


 * Binary Star for Alpha Centauri has Periastron epoch (T) between the longnitude of the node and argument of periastron, but Periastron in orbital elements is usually first or last. e.g. ordered T, P, a, e, i, Ω, ω or P, a, e, i, Ω, ω, T. The last stated parameter is usually the stated epoch.

This seemingly needs to be reorganised to follow such conventions.

Notably too, the article on Orbital elements is fairly disorganised too and likely needs to be rewritten. Arianewiki1 (talk)


 * If any particular order matters, I would have placed perihelion and aphelion after the orbital elements since they are derived values. But I can understand why they are grouped with the semimajor axis as distance factors. *shrug* I don't really care one way or another. It's a nit. Praemonitus (talk) 02:56, 18 January 2018 (UTC)


 * So you have no objection me changing this template then? Also "I would have placed perihelion and aphelion after the orbital elements since they are derived values", but orbital elements in the so-called classical are all derived values P, a, e are the dynamic elements, while i, Ω, ω are the orientation elements.
 * As for: "shrug* I don't really care one way or another. It's a nit.", then why even comment? Do you know better? Just saying. Arianewiki1 (talk) 06:31, 18 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Saying, and then deleting, "Clearly you like to argue. Very well, I see no reason to change it just because you don't like the order. " can be deemed unacceptable behaviour, and could be viewed as WP:PA and avoiding WP:GF. Disagree. Fine. It's not personal. But, whether I like it or not is irrelevant. (However, if you make wrong, misleading or false statements they can be legitimately challenged.) The order of orbital elements does significantly affect the organisation of Template:Infobox planet and many other templates like it. I've properly asked here to get consensus to change the order, which follows policy, especially where Template:Infobox says: "Please consider discussing any changes on the talk page before implementing them." All I'm doing is arguing for the case as presented. Arianewiki1 (talk) 01:48, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

-
 * Strong oppose to reordering of tabular entries within a narrowly related group, like putting periapsis before apoapsis (or any of their related terms), away from their alphabetic order. I admit not to know about distinguishing conventions referring to their use in defining relevant properties, but I strongly adhere to the conviction that the fundamental property of these terms denotes a distance, and any additional property of one of them does not establish a precedence, overruling a common search order like alphanumeric. Certainly, any ordering of notions from some profession should never ever overrule the meaningful construction of sentences in natural languages. Not even the ubiquitous alphanumeric order subdues a grammatical word order, so why should a sparsely known epoch definition? Purgy (talk) 08:31, 18 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Umm... "...common search order like alphanumeric." It is actually is ordered mathematically and increasing complexity. Having done the calculations using orbital elements to calculate ephemeridies and orbits, the reasoning is obvious. Perihelion, or other variants, is not made on a general whim but for necessary precedents to solve complex problems. Aphelion, and its variants, have no real importance, other than a distance. Worst, it applies to all orbital calculations and solutions. Alphabetic order is mostly irrelevant in this case. Arianewiki1 (talk) 09:05, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Umm... "...ordered mathematically and increasing complexity" is obviously not a well defined ordering, and "Alphabetic order is mostly irrelevant in this case" probably reflects your personal opinion. I do estimate highly your expertise in astronomy, but I am convinced that this blinds you in an unacceptable manner to the requirements of arranging table entries, apt for an interested readership. Your open ambition to subdue even rational construction of sentences in natural language to some possibly not even canonical sequence of data, which you demand for some calculations, and your preference of pure nonsense, just for respecting your sequence, renders for me your request of reordering table entries to your suggestions as misplaced. Since I strongly believe that data, collected in some template, should not be ordered according to any arbitrary sequence in which they were detected, measured, or calculated, but according to the convenience of the expected readership (not to your assumed expertise), and that this is best achieved by alphanumeric sorting of agreed upon names within useful groups, made up from physical dimensions, I herewith stop commenting on this disagreement until further notice or request at my sole discretion. Purgy (talk) 15:05, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

I have recently found some likely acceptable cited sources for the changes here. It is the "Explanatory Supplement Astronomical Almanac-1992" pg. 27-28 under section '1.412 Orbital parameters'. It give the six elements as a, e, i, Ω, ω, T, where T is defined as "the epoch at which the body is at the pericenter." (Perihelion 'q'). Another source completely agreeing with this is "Binary Stars" by Robert Aitken (1935) Dover Edition (1961) pg.77-79.

For planets, the following elements are: ῶ=(Ω+ω) is substituted, with the additional Μ (L=ῶ+M) substituting 'T.' Period 'P' for stars is in years, planets are in mean solar days. Mean motion 'n' is in radians per day.

These parameters are defined by dynamical and spherical astronomy. This same reference says: "The reference data are presented in forms that are acceptable to users who understand the significance of the quantities whose values are given." (which I've said and affirmed previously.)

Is these two reference acceptable as evidence to reorganise these Templates? Arianewiki1 (talk) 02:32, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Caption problem in with Starbox image and Location mark
So, there's this weird thing that happens when Location mark is used in Starbox image; an empty line of space appears between the image and the caption. Examples include the used in the articles for Rigel, Polaris, and Epsilon Crucis. When is not used, the caption behaves normally and appears directly under the image with no space. I wanted to ask if anybody here knows why this is happening and/or how it can be fixed. – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · contribs · [//tools.wmflabs.org/xtools-ec/?user=PhilipTerryGraham&project=en.wikipedia.org count]) 17:38, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Has nothing to do with location mark (it's not used in any of your above examples), it's the fact that starbox image asks for a  input with a separate caption. If the caption were inside the   it would show up as normal. Primefac (talk) 17:43, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Starbox image usually has the caption (and credit) in a template field rather than in the image. This generally works fine.  Lithopsian (talk) 17:50, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
 * While I misidentified Rigel and Polaris as an example, since made the mistake of assuming there was a location marker being used when I saw the constellation maps instead of astrophotography, Location mark is most certainly used in Epsilon Crucis, and many other articles of its kind.
 * Nonetheless, Lithopsian seems to be on to something below. This error does not appear on Starbox templates that don't use so, I'm still pretty sure it has something to do with the template. Also, I'll take it upon myself to edit in  templates to both Rigel and Polaris, since I now realise that there isn't any, and there's simply just a blank display of constellation maps... – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · contribs · [//tools.wmflabs.org/xtools-ec/?user=PhilipTerryGraham&project=en.wikipedia.org count]) 18:58, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Odd, it definitely wasn't there when I checked earlier... but I'm also not seeing this "extra line of space" on any of the aforementioned pages. Primefac (talk) 19:02, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
 * It isn't exactly glaring, especially since most of the location mark images in starbox image have a white background and no border. Still, between the bottom of the image and the caption, say on Rigel now, there is a single blank line.  Compare to Vega which just uses a plain image of a similar type.  Lithopsian (talk) 19:53, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Here's how it looks on my end on the pages for Sirius and Arcturus, for example. The captions are supposed to be up next to the image, but instead are separated by a line of space. – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · contribs · [//tools.wmflabs.org/xtools-ec/?user=PhilipTerryGraham&project=en.wikipedia.org count]) 20:06, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, that might do it. What you've shown is exactly what I see on all of the pages (regardless of location mark usage); I wonder if it's a skin difference. Primefac (talk) 13:56, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Template:Starbox image throws a  after the image.  Normally this causes the caption to show up nicely under the image instead of following directly after it.  Using a location mark instead of a plain image doesn't need that, so the break appears as an extra blank line.  I'm not sure what is a good way to fix the template for this case without breaking it for normal images.  Building location mark into the starbox image template is one belt and braces solution, since it is used frequently.  Lithopsian (talk) 17:47, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Template:Starbox image throws a  after the image.  Normally this causes the caption to show up nicely under the image instead of following directly after it.  Using a location mark instead of a plain image doesn't need that, so the break appears as an extra blank line.  I'm not sure what is a good way to fix the template for this case without breaking it for normal images.  Building location mark into the starbox image template is one belt and braces solution, since it is used frequently.  Lithopsian (talk) 17:47, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

I've edited template:Starbox image so that it doesn't add the break when the image is actually a div. This should get rid of the blank line with location marks and the manual divs which were tried (and failed but are still common) before location mark. Fingers crossed it doesn't mangle anything. Maybe some template expert could take a look at it and improve it? Lithopsian (talk) 20:21, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
 * That shouldn't break anything. Interesting hack. Might be worth investigating the standardization of the template usage. Primefac (talk) 13:56, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

IAU star names
Given that the IAU working group is now effectively making up star names that have either never or only rarely actually been used by anyone to refer to those stars, how much prominence should we be giving to them? While the IAU is an "official" source, it is a single primary source and Wikipedia normally requires multiple and preferably secondary or tertiary sources to establish notability. I have been able to find very few occurrences of names from either of the last couple of name lists in any other location, and even then often obvious typos, mis-transliterations, or simply not the star concerned. Lithopsian (talk) 16:14, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
 * What about mentioning these new names in second in the introduction of the articles like it has been done for new exoplanet names? We could also consider adding a subtitle template with it like it has been done for the Wikipedia in French project. J. N. Squire (talk) 21:11, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't think the IAU WGSN are 'making up' star names; they choose among the names already given the star in various cultures. Just because we in the Western, English-speaking world rarely if ever use these names doesn't mean that they're not commonly used elsewhere (especially if they're from Indian or Chinese culture!). In any event, notability applies to the article, not the content (WP:NNC). Are the relevant individual star articles notable? (The IAU has mainly named visible stars, or components of visible star systems, and WP:NASTRO states any object visible to the naked eye is notable.) Given notability, is the name of the star noteworthy for inclusion in the article? As most star articles included information as to names before the IAU WGSN began approving names, without concerns as to noteworthiness, it would seem odd for names approved by the body regarded by nearly all professional astronomers, learned societies and government agencies as having the authority to approve such names not to be considered noteworthy! Indeed, I would argue the fact that a star has a name, makes it notable (there are only 313 such stars on the IAU list). As you know, I have created (and had approved) star articles on that basis. Cuddlyopedia (talk) 08:35, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

25 Geminorum
This is a redirect that points to the Epsilon Geminorum article, but the latter is listed as 27 Geminorum. Is there a reason for this, like a cataloguing error by John Flamsteed? Or should it be WP:R3'd? Thanks. Praemonitus (talk) 18:28, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I created it. I was adding redirects from all Flamsteed designations to their respective Bayer designations.  Given that 27 Geminorum, the real ε Geminorum, is a redlink (not for much longer!), I'd say this was a typo.  I'm not aware of any other connection between the two although they're not that far apart on the sky.  Lithopsian (talk) 19:14, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Ah, okay. Thanks. I'll put in for a speedy delete. Praemonitus (talk) 16:29, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
 * A redirect to the list is probably a better result anyway. It is potentially an article although there really isn't a lot to write about the star other than existing.  Lithopsian (talk) 20:37, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Consistency in Starbox image templates that use constellation maps
Many articles on stars using Starbox image as a locator of a star's position in lieu of a suitable photograph of the subject star. These usages of have employed different versions of constellation maps, with the two chart series being used the most being 1) the IAU charts and 2) Torsten Bronger's charts, converted into vector graphics by Kxx. The articles for stars in Crux are a good example of what I mean, with the articles for Beta Crucis and Epsilon Crucis using Bronger's maps, while the articles for Gamma Crucis and Delta Crucis use the IAU charts instead. The article for Alpha Crucis also notably uses a different, custom-made chart altogether. I believe that it would be great to have conformity in these uses of ; I propose, because Bronger's charts are more colorful, less cluttered, and easier to read on a thumbnail level than the IAU charts, that Bronger's charts be used across the board, rather than there being a mesh of different charts and art styles among many articles. Agree/disagree? – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · contribs · [//tools.wmflabs.org/xtools-ec/?user=PhilipTerryGraham&project=en.wikipedia.org count]) 21:55, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't find any of the star charts to be particularly useful. The maps occupy space with little benefit, and the positioning algorithm used to identify the star's position is unreliable. Praemonitus (talk) 22:42, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
 * The legacy, manual divs, positioning algorithm is unreliable. The location mark template, pending evidence to the contrary, is reliable within a pixel or so.  If evidence appears that it isn't reliable then its a bug in the template and can be fixed.  Lithopsian (talk) 13:13, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I may be responsible for much of the inconsistency, so not necessarily an independent witness. The IAU charts were almost universally used before I came along, together with a system of position marks overlays that broke for different people, different skins, and every time the starbox was edited.  I don't claim to have invented the solution, but I've been very active in using the location mark template to fix this, including adding it to many stars that didn't have any chart.  I favoured the Bronger charts, possibly because that's what I started with, but certainly because of the reasons described.  The IAU charts are almost all useless at a thumbnail level, which makes them almost completely pointless because the overlay mark only appears at the thumbnail level.  I favour having a chart for a very simple reason: a star is a dot on the sky, not just a collection of numbers, so a Wikipedia article should show that dot on the sky.  I generally only include the chart for naked-eye stars, because fainter stars are not shown on the chart and because that scale of chart is hardly a helpful guide for knowing where fainter stars are.  Lithopsian (talk) 13:20, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
 * It is worth noting that the vertical location of the chart within the starbox can be modified. There seems to be a convention (inherited from other infoboxes?) that the image goes at the top, but it could just as easily go after the positional information, or the end, or anywhere.  Something consistent would be good though.  There can also be multiple images although that just exacerbates the problem of many starboxes being longer than the article they're in (so write some more!)  Lithopsian (talk) 19:27, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
 * To me it makes a certain amount of sense to keep the chart next to the positional coordinates. Praemonitus (talk) 16:32, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

SIMBAD links
At some point the owners of SIMBAD have changed the lookup for stars that use the constellation identifier so that the full name no longer succeeds. Instead, the links must now use the standard three character IAU abbreviation. Unfortunately, that broke many reference links on stub star articles. 3 Cancri, for example. Praemonitus (talk) 22:40, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Is that really the problem? All seems well for me with full constellation names.  The 3 Cnc article uses a mirror (simbak)) which I've had problems with before.  It is often down (like now) and sometimes just seems grouchy.  I edited 3 Cancri just as an example.  Lithopsian (talk) 14:01, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Does it? Okay, well maybe it's my browser settings or the AV s/w. Praemonitus (talk) 19:36, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Population 1 star
The redirect "Population 1 star" points to the Metallicity article. However, "Population 3 stars" points to Stellar population. The latter seems more apropos. I'd like to suggest they be kept consistent, and we add a "Population 2 star" redirect to the same location. Praemonitus (talk) 20:00, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
 * The correct titles are Population I/II/III, etc. I have retargeted Population 1 star, and added Population 2 star and Population 3 star (note singular).  Population I star, etc, already exist and point to the Stellar population sections.  Note that Population 1 redirects elsewhere (hatnote?), and Population 2 and Population 3 don't exist at all.  Lithopsian (talk) 21:18, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
 * It is Population I, II and III (Roman numerals) not numbers 1, 2, 3. (These are Badde's original distinctions of stellar populations.) If you use the Roman numerals, they lead to the one page. The articles organization on the three population was discussed here Talk:Metallicity in 2015. the split was here. Arianewiki1 (talk) 23:46, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
 * The purpose of redirects is to provide for common search terms, not to correct notation. The latter can be addressed within the articles proper. At any rate, the same usage (population 1, 2, and 3 stars) commonly appears in astronomical papers, so who am I to question? Praemonitus (talk) 05:36, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Ummm... When I rewrote these items, I've frankly never seen 1, 2 or 3 ever being used in the article's sources I looked at. My point was only assisting how changes historically occurred. Saying : "The purpose of redirects is to provide for common search terms, not to correct notation." doesn't appear in the first post here. All links should go to Stellar population not Metallicity. Lithopsian seemingly agrees and makes to same point.  Arianewiki1 (talk) 05:56, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment. The deleted search should have been " stellar "population+1" OR "population+2" OR "population+3" ". Notable two paper are in this format, but are unrelated listed points. Using this says 4,300 results. " stellar "population+I" OR "population+II" OR "population+III" " find 16,300 results. All 28 papers referred in the Stellar population article use I, II, III. The original paper is  and is discussed here Walter Baade.
 * ...so who am I to question? Just saying. Arianewiki1 (talk) 06:24, 24 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Thank you, Lithopsian. Praemonitus (talk) 19:26, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Praemonitus for listening. Arianewiki1 (talk) 23:40, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Notability of galaxies
Hi. I would like some help finding out if the redlinks on the template below represent notable galaxies. I can't really tell, it's possible that they would be better in a list, some help would be good. Prince of Thieves (talk) 18:26, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Well either way, a list article wouldn't be out of place. So create a list, and redirects would be fine per WP:NOTFINISHED. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:35, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Satellite galaxies in the above template is a link to List of Andromeda's satellite galaxies. If you follow this recommendation, I'd suggest targeted redirects per WP:TARGET and adding anchor templates to the list. Praemonitus (talk) 20:43, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Ok thanks. Prince of Thieves (talk) 11:03, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Lists of nearby stars
Nearby stars are listed in a number of list articles, covering various distance ranges. If I'm not missing something there's a gap in coverage, between 5 parsecs and 20 light years. Lavateraguy (talk) 18:24, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
 * The 0-20 light year range is covered by NavBoxes: see Nearest star systems for example. Praemonitus (talk) 19:12, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

M87 FAC
If you are interested in commenting, the Messier 87 article is up for FAC: Featured article candidates/Messier 87/archive1. Praemonitus (talk) 19:56, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Starbox chart?
If the 'location mark' template is the most consistently accurate with regards to the starbox image marker positioning, perhaps a variant of the 'starbox image' template can be built that incorporates 'location mark'? I.e. say a starbox chart, having parameters: image, caption, x%, y%. We can then run a trial of several suitably-modified star articles and see if different editors using various browsers get consistent results. Praemonitus (talk) 15:52, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Gaia Results
I'm expecting we're about to see a flood of well-intended but (possibly) poorly implemented stellar article data updates based upon the 2nd Gaia data release. Perhaps a little planning will help? Praemonitus (talk) 18:32, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Like? Lithopsian (talk) 19:05, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Well we could come up with a common citation template, I suppose. cite gaia dr2? Praemonitus (talk) 19:33, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Slightly off on a tangent, it would be useful to get a preferred citation format for DR2 as quickly as possible. This?  Don't know the bibcode or doi yet, there is an A&A special edition for it.  Lithopsian (talk) 19:18, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
 * A&A page now up with a DOI but incomplete. esa.int website is down now, looks like it needs a few more hours to settle down.  Lithopsian (talk) 20:12, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Looks like is adding Gaia DR2 astrometry (in relation to Template:Solar encounters?), but without any citations.  Lithopsian (talk) 19:28, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Only because I'm too scared to try and cite it! Do you have any idea how many co-authors are listed? exoplanetaryscience (talk) 19:38, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Use display-authors=9, or 1. Again, it would be nice to get one good example that could be cut'n'pasted, if nothing else.  Don't know if a template is warranted: it is only an interim data release and will be essentially dead in a couple of years, but there might be a lot of cites in the meantime.  Lithopsian (talk) 19:49, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'd use 'display-authors' to limit the list. I think the extended author list is primarily of interest for the collection of COINS data. If we were to use an (interim) template (of a form such as CODATA2010) somebody could fill in the remaining author list at their leisure. It can always be TfD'd later, once obsolete. Praemonitus (talk) 20:19, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I created Template:Cite DR2. Very basic, but if we can get people to use it, I will expand the citation when it is fully available at A&A and ADS, or we can change it to an entirely different citation, add VizieR links, etc.  Or delete it!  Looks like ""  Lithopsian (talk) 20:43, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree a standardised template is a good idea here. I've updated the template with the arXiv preprint that came out this morning. Modest Genius talk 12:18, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Binary stars in fiction
I removed a large amount of fluff and now it may meet the criteria for C-class. The other associated WikiProjects have been notified. – Laundry Pizza 03  ( d c&#x0304; ) 01:40, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Nix Olympica
FYI, there's a deletion process tag at Nix Olympica on Wiktionary. -- 70.51.203.56 (talk) 10:51, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

List of interesting stars
I found a draft article at DRAFT: List of interesting stars which seems rather pointless? "interesting" isn't a sufficient discriminator to separate it from a simple "list of stars" article title that lists notable stars. Nor does it have reasonable inclusion criteria ("interesting"). It claims to have "recordholders", but the current list is not such a list, as it doesn't indicate what "record" these supposedly hold. -- 65.94.42.219 (talk) 08:10, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, if you hadn't commented on it, it would be eligible for deletion in a month, but now that 6-month clock resets. I'd say just leave it be. Primefac (talk) 12:48, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It might be against a literal reading of G13, but I would argue that a comment questioning the purpose of the draft shouldn't reset the 6 months. --mfb (talk) 02:11, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It was my understanding that minor changes, and changes that didn't affect content, didn't affect the G13 crtierion -- 65.94.42.219 (talk) 04:42, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
 * There's already a much better developed list that is similar in scope to a list of "recordholders" here: List of star extremes. Praemonitus (talk) 15:56, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

WikiProject collaboration notice from the Portals WikiProject
The reason I am contacting you is because there are one or more portals that fall under this subject, and the Portals WikiProject is currently undertaking a major drive to automate portals that may affect them.

Portals are being redesigned.

The new design features are being applied to existing portals.

At present, we are gearing up for a maintenance pass of portals in which the introduction section will be upgraded to no longer need a subpage. In place of static copied and pasted excerpts will be self-updating excerpts displayed through selective transclusion, using the template Transclude lead excerpt.

The discussion about this can be found here.

Maintainers of specific portals are encouraged to sign up as project members here, noting the portals they maintain, so that those portals are skipped by the maintenance pass. Currently, we are interested in upgrading neglected and abandoned portals. There will be opportunity for maintained portals to opt-in later, or the portal maintainers can handle upgrading (the portals they maintain) personally at any time.

Background
On April 8th, 2018, an RfC ("Request for comment") proposal was made to eliminate all portals and the portal namespace. On April 17th, the Portals WikiProject was rebooted to handle the revitalization of the portal system. On May 12th, the RfC was closed with the result to keep portals, by a margin of about 2 to 1 in favor of keeping portals.

There's an article in the current edition of the Signpost interviewing project members about the RfC and the Portals WikiProject.

Since the reboot, the Portals WikiProject has been busy building tools and components to upgrade portals.

So far, 84 editors have joined.

If you would like to keep abreast of what is happening with portals, see the newsletter archive.

If you have any questions about what is happening with portals or the Portals WikiProject, please post them on the WikiProject's talk page.

Thank you. &mdash; The Transhumanist  10:53, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

FL review for List of nearest stars and brown dwarfs
Hey guys, the featured list nomination List of nearest stars and brown dwarfs could really use some review from experts. Come give input on the Review page. Thanks! exoplanetaryscience (talk) 23:29, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Reporting VizieR errors?
Can I ask where we report apparent errors in a VizieR database entry? The VizieR lookup for 48 Cas in the 9th Catalogue of Spectroscopic Binary Orbits (DOI 10.1051/0004-6361:20041213) shows an orbital period of 15011.5 days, but the original source (DOI 10.1086/190120) lists 20146.1 days. Thanks. Praemonitus (talk) 15:37, 21 June 2018 (UTC)


 * There is a contact email on the CDS home page. You can also report errors in Simbad if you have an account, it all ends up in the same place.  Before that though, see the description in the paper and the note in VizieR.  The reported orbit is not the spectroscopic orbit from the reference, but an orbit for the visual pair.  I can't find a publication of that orbit though, it doesn't quite match Muller 1949.  See Malkov 2012 for modern orbits.  Lithopsian (talk) 16:33, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks. It seems odd then that the orbital periods are of the same order of magnitude. Ah well. I was looking at Malov (2012), but unfortunately it gives four slightly different orbital solutions. Praemonitus (talk) 18:51, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Malkov sort of explains where the orbits came from but it isn't explicit. Mostly they are from OARMAC which then gives the original source, but that doesn't help in this case because we know none of those orbits are relevant.  I went to the raw SB9 tables and they show the same as VizieR, so no much point complaining to CDS.  So. I went back to "SB8", which gives a period of 41.1 years, so its a good guess that's where the 15,011 days came from.  It still gives the same Abt 1965 source, which doesn't have that period anywhere I can find.  The eccentricity does match now, but no clue why it changed in SB9.  Back to SB7, and the period is not given, only the note that is still in SB9.  The eccentricity is back to 0.34 again, not what Abt says but about what modern sources say.  So ... I don't know, except we should probably pick a different source for Wikipedia. Lithopsian (talk) 19:45, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

WikiProject Astronomical objects/Catalogues
I recently created these indices. They mostly exist so we can keep track of what exists. I'm not super familiar with the HR catalogue, but it mentions 9110 objects, so I created listings for HR 1 to HR 9110. Feel free to adjust if the HR numbers go higher. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 14:23, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
 * HR numbers run from 1 to 9110. I don't think there are any gaps.  However, a major problem is that many articles exist under different names; Bayer designations, are almost always used in preference to HR numbers as the article title, and HD numbers and variable star designations are often preferred.  Lithopsian (talk) 21:32, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Oh for sure. But that's where bots could come in handy. Or so people can go "HR ###? That's NGC ####!" and create the redirect accordingly. may have insights here. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 22:08, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I like where you're going with those indices! Which is a good way of finding discrepancies, like that Her 3 & Her 4 link to proteins...
 * If someone could point me to all the necessary master lists of sorts, I could work my way through them creating #Rs to the main articles. Something like Caldwell catalogue would be ideal (Catalogues/Caldwell Catalogue needs no adjustment, though, probably because lists like those already exist, so the process might be slightly chicken-and-the-egg-y). Scraping through, for example, SIMBAD's 'Identifiers' section seems like it would be a pain in the neck. And someone has probably done this sort of matching before, I just haven't looked into it.  ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  23:07, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
 * While some catalogues are easy to find, the Herschel catalog entry doesn't seem to be recorded often. Source code search. --mfb (talk) 02:41, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Herschel ###/Her ### may also be the wrong convention. E.g. lists entries over 400. It may refer to a different Herschel catalogue. The Herschel 400 seems to be in a H I-VII ### format. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 02:52, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
 * SIMBAD uses 'Her NNN' . I don't know why you're referring to the subset of 400, which is entirely a modern (1980s) selection. It doesn't make an awful lot of difference for NASTRO purposes, because almost everything in the Herschel catalogue is also in NGC. In fact they might all be; if so we could remove Herschel from NASTRO as redundant with NGC. Modest Genius talk 10:21, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Herschel isn't mentionned in WP:NASTRO. The list simply exist to document what's the state of the Herschel 400 articles/redirects/dabs, since this is something of interest to amateur astronomy, and those are of higher priority than random space rocks and other objects. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 14:38, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Gotcha. I thought you put the list together because it qualified under NASTRO's "catalogues of interest to amateur astronomers". My mistake. Modest Genius talk 15:01, 28 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Well that's mostly why I put the lists together. The Herschel 400 certainly do qualify per WP:NASTRO, as do members of most of these lists. Some in the other lists might not qualify (e.g. the Abell ### or Arp ###), but I bet that most would. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 22:26, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Template:Starbox reference link to EPE
When I go to a star article and click on the "Extrasolar Planets Encyclopaedia" target link, it just brings up a section of a large table. (Example: HD 109749.) However, the link on the planet's article still seems to work and it shows the star's information. Praemonitus (talk) 20:37, 5 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Do you have an example of that "Extrasolar Planets Encyclopaedia" target link? Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:38, 5 July 2018 (UTC)


 * In the example I listed above, check the link in the infobox. Praemonitus (talk) 21:03, 5 July 2018 (UTC)


 * What's the "the link on the planet's article" then? Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 21:11, 5 July 2018 (UTC)


 * HD 109749 b links to http://exoplanet.eu/planet.php?p1=HD+109749&p2=b. Praemonitus (talk) 21:17, 5 July 2018 (UTC)


 * It may be blocking external queries. If I go to the list page and use the 'Planet Search' field to search on: HD 109749, it resolves to 'HD 109749 b'. But if I then load that URL into a separate tab to do the lookup, I get the full list. Praemonitus (talk) 21:13, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Well you're not searching for the same things with both templates, so a different output should be expected. Not saying the output can't be improved though. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 21:26, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Right. But the http://exoplanet.eu/star.php?st=HD+102117 URL for the star article is essentially useless now. Perhaps it worked properly at one time. Praemonitus (talk) 21:31, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Page request: PDS 70
It appears this Wikiproject has some sort of automated means of creating stubs with the data pre-filled. Can a page for this star be created? SchmuckyTheCat (talk) 11:44, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
 * The object appears notable. Praemonitus (talk) 15:46, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I've added it to the requested article list. Praemonitus (talk) 15:13, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
 * And I've removed it ;) As usual, it's a WIP, but it's a start. Primefac (talk) 18:53, 30 June 2018 (UTC)


 * As a reminder, works again. You can always ping me to run in on newly-created articles to get ahead of the work queue. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 21:14, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Actually,, I was just wondering about that - why add arXiv to articles that already have a DOI? Primefac (talk) 22:57, 5 July 2018 (UTC)


 * It's a convenience link, guaranteed to be free-to-read. This is especially useful in the case where the full version is paywalled (and a good backup when the official site is down for maintenance). Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 00:03, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Mass refund of PROD'd stubs
I came across a couple of small-ish star stubs recently and submitted them for AfD. They had been PROD'd a few years back and then deleted. See Articles for deletion/GJ 1151. I didn't realise at the time that these were just two out of a great many, so many that the process probably deserves discussion as a mass article creation. They were originally part of User:Chermundy's mass stub creation, the bulk of which were subsequently deleted. See GJ 3522, GJ 3192, GJ 3991, LP 658-2, LP 993-115, Gliese 514, GJ 4274, GJ 4053, GJ 1286, GJ 4063, GJ 4248, SCR J0740−4257, Gliese 701, Gliese 382, Gliese 831, Gliese 793, Gliese 686, Gliese 48, Gliese 450, Gliese 424, Gliese 480.1, Gliese 300, Gliese 257, Gliese 493.1, Gliese 618, Gliese 486, Gliese 232, Gliese 867, and L 745-46. There may be some I missed. I'm not sure if the logic for their notability is their closeness or a simple count of Simbad references (or both?). or can probably explain better. A couple of them have since been expanded beyond stubs but most are still one-liners. Lithopsian (talk) 15:52, 25 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Looks like ~600 pages (and some page moves) were created by that user.  ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)
 * I'm pretty sure there was a project to fix, redirect, or delete them when it became apparent that there was a problem with the articles, although I can't find it now. A search of the archives shows a number of "Chermundy" problems but not anything I could see about tidying up mass stub creations.  Lithopsian (talk) 16:53, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Some of these articles have undergone a degree of development (GJ 3991 for example), so for now perhaps it's best to focus on the one- or two-liner stubs. Then again, even some of the Chermundy's developed articles are of dubious notability. Gliese 205, for example, has a two paragraph history of (entirely non-notable) observation. Praemonitus (talk) 18:30, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

The unprods were the result of my understanding of GNG. I think it should, for example, be obvious from the large amount of information compiled into SIMBAD that, in the case of these stars, the sources contain significant coverage between them that satisfies GNG. Examination does bear out that the vast quantity of information compiled on each star has come from the sources and not been invented by SIMBAD itself. As to improvement, per WP:IMPERFECT, we don't delete articles because they need to be improved. We assume that if they are in the mainspace, someone will improve them sooner or later. Again, I am just applying policy. I cannot subscribe to your interpretation of WP:PSTS: I think its wording is wholly unambiguous, and provided that wording went through the correct proposal process for establishing consensus, it does not matter that it has been put in an illogical place. In any event, it makes sense as a rule. Encyclopedias are tertiary sources, and the inclusion of a topic in a reputable professionally published reliable independent etc encyclopedia (such as eg Britannica) is strong evidence that it is an encyclopedic topic that is suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia like ours. I was trying to improve these things, but I'm not getting a chance to do that, because I can't improve content in the face of WP:DEMOLISH, and I have simply run out of patience. James500 (talk) 06:33, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * The logic, as Lithopsian well knows, is that the sources in SIMBAD contain significant coverage that satisfies GNG, and that the articles were mostly the subject of a blatant WP:MASSNOM over a short period of time in March 2015. The fact that these stars are exceptional due to their extreme closeness to us is the icing on the cake. If Lithopsian disputes the notability of these articles, he should have gone to AfD, and not engaged in what looks like canvassing and forum shopping here. I should point out that WP:REFUND is not 'creation'. PROD is only for wholly uncontroversial deletions that have no opposition whatsoever. In this case, there is opposition, and you are talking to him right now. Accordingly, none of these things should have been PRODed in the first place. James500 (talk) 20:31, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Don't assume bad faith on my part. I offered you the chance to put your explanation rather than try to put words in your mouth.  I certainly don't "know full well" that Simbad establishes notability with one source listing or a hundred.  The PROD's were unopposed for 2-3 years, which is a pretty good reason for them to be deleted.  Now you oppose the PRODs, the articles are all back, and you're still complaining about procedure.  This is an informal discussion about the merits of a moderately large number of stubs that were removed once following considerable discussion several years ago, rather than slapping them all straight into AfD which you can do at any time if you feel this is a kangaroo court.  Please stick to the merits of those articles rather making everything personal.  Lithopsian (talk) 13:33, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * SIMBAD is a WP:TERTIARY source. Secondary sources are required to satisfy WP:GNG. Ergo, SIMBAD does not satisfy the notability requirement. It is necessary to track down the sources that do have significant coverage, and that, more often than not, is a difficult challenge. The only reason why proximity would be relevant is that it is more likely to have reliable studies to establish significant coverage. Otherwise it is irrelevant to WP:GNG.
 * I've gone ahead and tagged many of these articles as having notability concerns. Praemonitus (talk) 21:21, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Actually WP:PSTS says "Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability" (emphasis added). So we can use tertiary sources to establish notability. And that is policy. Which overrides notability guidelines. I know our policies and guidelines back to front, so there is not much point trying to explain them to me. James500 (talk) 22:23, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
 * "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources." This is delving into common sense; SIMBAD has many thousands of objects, very few of which are suitable for Wikipedia. The same with NED. Praemonitus (talk) 23:37, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
 * WP:PSTS is not so relavent to if an article exists or not, as it's main purpose is to pick which sources to use an stop editor original research based on those primary sources. What is important is that a significant amount has been written on the topic. Simbad may link to suitable sources, but don't assume that those sources are suitable. I am a bit concerned that the prod reversals may be for a political reason rather than a desire to improve those articles. I would not support mass undeletion without attempting to improve the pages. Just because they are close does not prove notability. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 05:05, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Yep. It's useless to wave your hand at SIMBAD and say it's got X number of references without actually looking at those refs. Generally this only means that it's been listed in catalogues containing hundreds or thousands of stars, none of which have been considered individually. Or it's been used as a handy photometric calibration star due to being near the actual object of study on the sky, and notability is not inherited. You've got to actually look at the claimed references. <b style="color: Maroon;">Reyk</b> <b style="color: Blue;">YO!</b> 06:26, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I did look at the references. You know perfectly well that we have different ideas about what is and is not significant. James500 (talk) 06:33, 26 June 2018 (UTC) Being a "a handy photometric calibration star" contributes to notability. It is not inherited from the other object, because the other object is not "a handy photometric calibration star". Those catalogues are more than just a list of names which is what "not considered individually" means. James500 (talk) 06:43, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Unless you have an actual source saying they're a handy photometric calibration star, this is at best speculation and in no way conveys notability. Per WP:NASTRO "Being mentioned alongside other similar objects, such as in a table of properties of 200 newly discovered supernovae, does not constitute non-trivial coverage; the paper needs to have significant commentary on the object." [emphasis in original] Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 15:19, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * A topic that satisfies GNG does not have to satisfy NASTRO or any other SNG as well. The lead section of N makes this very clear. There is overwhelming consensus in favour of this. All of attempts to alter the lead section of N to allow SNG to impose restrictions on GNG have always failed badly, because the wider community appreciates that many SNG are obscure backwaters with very limited participation (ie virtual fiefdoms) that are absolutely full of bizarre mega-deletionist garbage wholly incompatible with everything GNG stands for. I suggest you look to the wording of GNG itself. James500 (talk) 21:16, 26 June 2018 (UTC)


 * They don't satisfy WP:GNG either. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 21:38, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I think they do. James500 (talk) 10:24, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Notice. I've AFD'd them all save for GJ 3991, which is borderline. Initially I thought some of them might be salvageable, e.g. LP 658-2, but upon inspect these sources do not consist of significant commentary, simply a listing in surveys. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 15:33, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Argh. You couldn't have mass-nominated them? -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:34, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I suppose I could have, but I figured it'd be easier to discuss individually. I can refactor the nominations though. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 15:42, 26 June 2018 (UTC)


 * done. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 16:04, 26 June 2018 (UTC)


 * The idea that distance does not affect notability is demonstrably false. Certain techniques, such as trigonometric parallax are not possible for a star that is too far away (on the order of hundreds of parsecs): . A star with a given absolute magnitude will have a lower apparent magnitude, and appear brighter, the closer it is too us. This means it can be seen with a smaller less expensive telescope:  (source not strictly about this but explains the principle). Quite a lot of the red dwarfs within 30 light years seem to have an apparent magnitude of less than 13, which is within the range of a 150mm amateur telescope (Kingfisher Pocket Book of Astronomy). (Anything that can be seen with a not atypical amateur telescope should probably not be deleted). On top of that there appears to be serious talk now of sending probes to the nearest stars using a solar sail, starting with Proxima, and even going as far as Castor A (50+ light years). It seems to me that the stars that have been nominated might conceivably be potential probe targets in the not excessively remote future, because they are close. Generally, the nearest stars are more accesible to us. . All things considered, the nearest stars should not be aggresively deleted. Bearing in mind the size of the project, having articles on say, the thousand nearest stars or a larger number on the same order would be a perfectly reasonable thing to do. A thousand articles on nearby stars, or even ten times that, is not going to cause a 5.6 million article encyclopedia to blow up. It is frankly absurd to worry about the appearance of a mere thirty articles (a tiny number) on the nearest stars, let alone aggressively mass delete them. James500 (talk) 10:24, 27 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Correlation isn't causation. If they are notable, you'll be able to find sources that discuss these objects specifically, directly, and as standalone things worth discussing, rather than being discussed in bulk. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 11:19, 27 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Yep. A star being relatively nearby or relatively bright may make it more likely to be the subject of individual study, but we still do need the actual sources. <b style="color: Maroon;">Reyk</b> <b style="color: Blue;">YO!</b> 11:29, 27 June 2018 (UTC)


 * I'm going to add another voice to the "being nearby doesn't imply notable". How do you define "nearby" anyway? Your claim that trigonometric parallax only works to a few hundred parsec is quite out of date: Gaia DR2 has distances beyond a thousand pc to a handful of percent. Things that are in catalogs are not inherently notable, unless there are secondary sources that demonstrate their notability. Otherwise, we'd be spending a huge amount of time trying to keep up with the constantly growing catalogs. - Parejkoj (talk) 18:01, 27 June 2018 (UTC)


 * James500 just retired. Praemonitus (talk) 18:18, 27 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Oh well. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 18:28, 27 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Having given the matter consideration, I think the best approach would be for me to give details of the information available from the sources in SIMBAD that is not included in our lists of nearby stars, to demonstrate that our lists are inadequate. Consider List of star systems within 20–25 light-years. Some examples of information missing from this list: (1) The list generally gives one measurement for parallax of each star when there are in fact multiple measurements. For example, Gliese (1991), Altena (1995), and Dittman (2014) each give different a different number for the parallax of the same star. I am under the impression this is important because the best way to eliminate errors is to have the greatest possible number of measurements over the longest possible period of time (See eg Toulmin and Goodfield, The Fabric of the Heavens, Pelican Books, 1963, p 46). (2) Fluxes are completely absent from our list, despite the fact that the sources in SIMBAD give figures for up to 14 filters for each star. (The number of figures given seems to depend on the star, for example, Gliese 701 has 12). Leaving aside my opinions about the merits of this information for the moment, I would point out that as SIMBAD is compiled by experts at the University of Strasbourg with verifiable credentials (unlike Wikipedians who could be anyone) who should know what is and is not noteworthy in this field, the fact that this information is compiled in SIMBAD is strong evidence that it is noteworthy. In fact, it is just about overwhelming evidence. (3) Redshifts and proper motions are not included in our list, despite being available from the sources in SIMBAD. (4) Co-ordinates are not included in our list, despite being available from the sources in SIMBAD. This omission really is egregiously preposterous. Without these, you do not know which star you are talking about. A distance measurement is useless if you do not know which direction to look in. (5) These stars typically have more than one name by virtue of having been included in more than one catalogue, the vast majority of which are not included in out list. Gliese 701 for example has forty such names listed in SIMBAD, none of which are included in List of star systems within 25–30 light-years. Sooner or later readers will come looking for these stars by using the other names of these stars as search terms, such as HD 165222 or LHS 3356, and they will become incredibly confused and annoyed when they can't find the star they are looking for, because we have given a different name and have only given one of them, let alone provided the redirects that are needed to allow this things to be found with a reasonable level of ease. (END EXAMPLES). On the face of it, we should include this sort of information. There is however so much of it that I seriously doubt that it could be included in our lists, especially in their present tabular form. This leads to the conclusion that stand alone articles are needed, because this sort of coverage is significant, and per SPINOUT, and because the information we presently have is plainly not adequate. James500 (talk) 03:58, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
 * SIMBAD is a repository of about 9 million objects. They are each as individually notable as the individuals in a database of every person living in Serbia today. The criteria is what's outlined in WP:NASTRO. If the objects meet that, they can be kept. If not, they will be deleted. Having 49 separate measurement of parallax, coordinates, brightness, etc... means nothing, what is needed is commentary on the object. This has been explained to you several times now. If you want to creatws dozens and dozens of astronomical object stubs, I suggest you start with the entries found in WikiProject Astronomical objects/Catalogues that do meet WP:NASTRO. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Astronomical objects below. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 07:38, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The stars in constellation lists (eg. List of stars in Orion) are mostly notable, although no guarantee. Other lists most likely include objects that are not notable.  If you have a niche interest (eg. nearby stars), then perhaps working on the accuracy of the existing lists might be a good place to start.  Sourcing for astronomical objects is slightly complex, in part because Wikipedia guidelines were not specifically designed for them.  The type of references considered reliable for a biography aren't necessarily the best for a star.  Secondary sources like books are often hopelessly out of date.  Peer-reviewed papers are primary sources, but usually preferred for raw data.  Caution is needed with preprints which may never be accepted for publication.  Even more caution with secondary sources such as news reports and blogs: they can be useful for establishing notability, but tend to suffer from Chinese whispers.  Newer papers tend to be preferable, but make sure they aren't just randomly using some value from a very old paper; ideally a new source takes into account older publications and either supersedes or refines the older results.  For example, the first set of Hipparcos parallaxes should be considered to be completely superseded by the Revised Hipparcos parallaxes, and those by Gaia parallaxes as they become available.  Simbad is not a good reference: it is a portal, which means it only reports what is available elsewhere (usually showing the original source explicitly) and the data it displays may change over time.  Historical lists of experimental results are not usually helpful; readers won't know what to make of them, and making anything from them that isn't already published would be original research.  Pick "the best" value, just possibly two or three where contradictory results have been published, and go with it.  In a detailed article, it may be appropriate to mention conflicting results or older results to give context for the currently accepted situation.  Lithopsian (talk) 14:10, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Neutrino source
Could we get some more eyes on TXS 0506+056? That's the blazar that was announced as an astrophysical neutrino source last week. The article is currently a stub, but there's been plenty written about it (before and after the neutrino discovery) so it should be possible to expand it. <b style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 11:07, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The Russian version has more ru:TXS 0506+056. IC170922A is also probably notable in itself as the first observation of its type. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:29, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Maybe, though a lot of the discussion of IceCube-170922A rolls in the related precovery of numerous lower-energy neutrinos emitted from the same source a few years earlier. If the article on the blazar grows it might be worth splitting out the neutrino event into a separate article at some point, but for now it's easier to cover them both together. <b style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 15:18, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Sigma Draconis
An anonymous editor (but one evidently familiar with editing Wikipedia) has been making calculations for the semi-major axis of an unconfirmed planet in the Sigma Draconis system on the basis of an assumed fixed mass equal to the rough minimum. I've been reverting on the basis that the orbital inclination is unknown and the calculation is bordering on WP:OR, if not all the way over. To me it's a real stretch to be doing this sort of thing on an unconfirmed planet with only rough data estimates. Any thoughts on the matter? Unfortunately I can find no other sources that could weigh in on the topic, other than saying Sigma Draconis is RV stable. Praemonitus (talk) 01:28, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I was about to undo those edits as massive OR, but I saw you'd already been there. I have made no changes to what you left, but think this is far far beyond a trivial calculation.  Lithopsian (talk) 13:45, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Please feel free to remove it. I was just being conciliatory, figuring it would get overridden eventually by a new source. Praemonitus (talk) 14:29, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Epoch, equinox, and the ICRS
I started a discussion at Template talk:Starbox observe, but it occurred to me that it deserves a wider audience. The subject has come up before (search the archives for this page) but the solutions seem to have either been incorrect, not implemented, or subsequently reverted or otherwise lost. Lithopsian (talk) 14:32, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

PASTEL catalogue
FYI: I have found this recent catalogue of Teff, log g and [Fe/H] computed for many stars that could help filling some currently void boxes in the Starbox template: PASTEL catalogue Psyluke (talk) 15:42, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Here's a citation:
 * Praemonitus (talk) 22:04, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Note that the data is collated from previous publications which are sometimes (not always) quite old. Take care before replacing any existing data.  Other than that it is generally reliable.  Lithopsian (talk) 14:15, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Note that the data is collated from previous publications which are sometimes (not always) quite old. Take care before replacing any existing data.  Other than that it is generally reliable.  Lithopsian (talk) 14:15, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Manual of Style question
What are the style guidelines for referring to stars within the body of articles? The main thing I was looking at is the use of italics, bold, or even double quotes. The terms are often historical foreign-language names, sometimes not in the Roman alphabet, but also Romanised forms of these names right up to formally-recognised proper names, for example Pi1 Cygni and Sigma Ceti. This typesetting can also overlap with the use of bold in the lead paragraphs, and sometimes throughout the article, which often appears to be excessive, for example see Alpha Crucis and Eta Persei. I thought I'd canvas opinion before I go out and massacre all the  s and ' s in hundreds of articles. The MOS has some hints (eg. MOS:BOLD and MOS:ITALIC) and a few clear guidelines (eg. MOS:BOLDAVOID) but not everything is clearcut. Lithopsian (talk) 13:00, 16 October 2018 (UTC)


 * After reading the MOS articles I would just use the bold just for the proper name recognized by the IAU, the most common designation (Bayer or whatever else) and the one with the abbreviation identifier for the constellation, since it's widely used. Names with the greek letter should neither be bolded nor italicized (see the explicit sentence in MOS:ITALIC!), nor should be the names of the subcomponents (as in the current version of Alpha Crucis you brought as an example). The principle of least astonishment should hold with this guideline. Psyluke (talk) 13:36, 16 October 2018 (UTC)


 * I agree that the amount of bold-facing of alternate star names can seem excessive. To me it can distract from reading the content, so I normally just limit myself to bold-facing the article title. But it does say in the MoS that it's a matter of editorial discretion. Do individual projects have their own MoS appendices, I wonder? Praemonitus (talk) 14:42, 16 October 2018 (UTC)


 * I'll keep reducing the number of bold terms in the leads of these articles, as I find them. The principle of least astonishment seems easy enough to follow.  I'm a little more concerned about what to do in the nomenclature sections (eg. pi Ceti) which are full of italic and bold terms.  Some seem appropriate, such as names of publications and some foreign words?  Others don't seem to follow any Wikipedia guidelines that I can find, such as (historical, mythological, or foreign) star names sometimes in italics and sometimes in bold.  Confusing and hard to read, I'm sure it isn't right but I really don't know how things should be.  Lithopsian (talk) 18:27, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Entire 'Minor planets by source of name' category tree at CfD
@ Categories for discussion/Log/2018 October 26. ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf) 13:37, 26 October 2018 (UTC)