Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Astronomy/Archive 7

Name of a Star
OOOOk… sorry if this is un-cyclopedic but for the life of me I can’t remember this… there was a star, called “star of saint catherine” o “saint catherine’s star” because pilgrims going to saint Catherine’s monastery could see it right above the monastery, sparkling and twinkling… anyone knows what the proper name of this star is? I’m looking around on the web and can’t find it, and I have no access to my books for the next weeks… Well, sorry for the semi-unrelated matter, and thanks in advance! Idonthav etimefor thiscarp 15:23, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * It was probably Venus.&mdash;RJH (talk) 15:41, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the answer but i'm almost sure it was a star, and not a planet... i'm looking it up right now though ;P, thank you! Idonthav etimefor thiscarp 15:47, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Erm, perhaps I'm missing something but that source clearly states it was Canopus...ChiZeroOne (talk) 15:50, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, sorry. Should have read the full paragraph. Thanks.&mdash;RJH (talk) 19:35, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

YES! It's Canopus, thank you RJH! @ChiZeroOne eheheheheh well the important thing is i found the answer ;P i'll squeeze the info into the canopus article too ;P thank you all ! Idonthav etimefor thiscarp 15:55, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

G. J. Toomer
I just created a new article titled G. J. Toomer. Quite a large number of articles link to it, but it's very stubby. Do what you can to improve it. Michael Hardy (talk) 00:09, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Extrasolar system
There's a redirect ... is this really an appropriate redirect? It points to exoplanet, and not planetary system or star system. Though, in I think, 2004, someone created a whole batch of now-deleted categories that categorized everything outside the Solar System into "extrasolar system", so even the linkage to planets is not automatic since that person from early 00's used a different definition. 65.95.15.144 (talk) 07:26, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Graphic Lab/Illustration workshop


There's a question about the Phobos & Deimos orbits at the Graphic Labs. The question is basically if the P&D orbits should pass closer to Jupiter. Reply here or there. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 18:51, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Reliable sources/Noticeboard
Feedback/Help is welcome. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 23:47, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Lorenzo Iorio
The new article Lorenzo Iorio was deleted at AfD but then been resurrected through DRV. It seems to have a whole load of problems with sources and a potential conflict of interest. I've tagged a bunch of these and brought up several issues on the talk page; could someone familiar with either his science or the way we handle other articles on current academic astronomers take a look? I'd appreciate a second opinion. Thanks. Modest Genius talk 02:59, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Cygnus A
The article on Cygnus A states that it was discovered in 1939 by Grote Reber, but doesn't cite any sources. As far as i know/remember, Cygnus A was discovered by Baade and Minkowsky in 1952. I found this http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?bibcode=1999ApJ...525C.569B&db_key=AST&page_ind=0&data_type=GIF&type=SCREEN_VIEW&classic=YES Anyone more in the know could shed light on this? Thank you in advance! Idonthav etimefor thiscarp 14:02, 8 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I suspect the difference is becuase the radio source will have been observed earlier than the actual optical-light confirmation (made by Baade and Minkowsky, as you say) of the galaxy responsible. ChiZeroOne (talk) 14:45, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

"Cygnus A" is a name for a radio source, and the paper you linked to is about identication of optical sources related to radio sources, so one is the discovery of Cygnus A, the radio source, the other is the identification of the optical counterpart of the radio source. In your paper, the sources have already been discovered, so there is no "discovery of a new object" there, just the identification linking an optical object to a radio object. 65.93.13.129 (talk) 05:29, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

I see, thank you! Idonthav etimefor thiscarp 20:09, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Ptolemy's table of chords
I've created an article titled Ptolemy's table of chords. It is imperfect in its present form. Work on it. Michael Hardy (talk) 19:20, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * At Talk:Ptolemy's table of chords, I've created a "to do" list of work that should get done on this article. I'll probably get to most or all of it eventually unless others get there first. Michael Hardy (talk) 00:10, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject Space template has been nominated for deletion
FYI, I have nominated WikiProject Space for deletion since the abolishment of WP:SPACE and the removal the template. The discussion is here. JJ98 (Talk)  21:39, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Anime at Heat death of the universe
A very persistent IP editor keeps inserting references to an unrelated anime at. They're hopping between several IPs, so short of semi-protection there isn't much that can be done beyond reverting. More eyes would be helpful, as I'm sure they'll be back. --Christopher Thomas (talk) 19:59, 11 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think semi-protection of the page could be justified yet. I see that not a single warning has been placed on any IP talk page...that would be a start.  If they are persistent after repeated and final warnings then a rangeblock could be placed on the groups of IPs they use by an admin. ChiZeroOne (talk) 20:09, 11 March 2011 (UTC)


 * At present, semi-protection would be declined due to insufficient volume (I've asked for it elsewhere before, with mixed success). As far as warnings go, any given IP makes one or two edits, and then isn't re-used. Warnings on IP talk pages would be futile. It's been explained to them repeatedly in edit summaries that this is not appropriate material, and they continue to revert, with edit summaries that make it clear that they don't accept this. --Christopher Thomas (talk) 19:47, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The good news is, they seem to have taken a break for the weekend, at least. With luck they've given up. Thanks for the extra eyes. --Christopher Thomas (talk) 19:52, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Try asking for pending-changes protection, instead of semiprotection. 184.144.160.156 (talk) 06:57, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

There are other links in that section concerning fiction; shouldn't those be removed as well? Njardarlogar (talk) 13:34, 12 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't be against that, but fiction that directly deals with the heat death of the universe could be argued to be relevant (per any other "in popular culture"/"in fiction" section). The problem with this anime is that it has absolutely nothing to do with the article's topic, as far as I can tell. --Christopher Thomas (talk) 19:47, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

astrology and pseudoscience
Astrology is currently protected due to attempts to deny that it's a pseudoscience. Some of the people on the talk page appear to think they are approaching consensus to do the same once it goes off protection. Just a note in case anyone here wants to chime it. — kwami (talk) 18:36, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I wanted voice support for a strong statement in the lead that astrology is a pseudoscience, but that talk page is much too much to get involved in. I'll try to dig up anything authoritative on the matter. My favorite discussion of this is the one at Bad Astronomy, but that is not really going to be useful here. James McBride (talk) 19:42, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
 * What would it take to resolve this? No amount of independent and published sources will satisfy those who believe it is not pseudoscience (a classic trait of the practitioners of pseudoscience). However, for the sake of providing something useful, the following webpage has a nice citation list: Astrology Entry in the Skeptic's Dictionary.Astrocog (talk) 19:55, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

No matter what we say, every couple months a couple astrologers will get together and claim they have consensus to change it. Basically, I think it would be nice if some of the people on this project would keep it on their watch list to revert non-consensual changes. (Maybe you already do.) I don't expect people to counter the claims on the talk page point by point, which would be a waste of time, but when an alleged "consensus" is developed, it would be nice if a few would chime in and say this has been gone over many times before, and that the current article does reflect consensus. (Though of course any contributions in content would be useful, if you feel it's worth your time.) IOW, basically just policing the article and giving voice to the silent consensus. — kwami (talk) 04:37, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Considering the recent flap with Ophiuchus, Western Modern Astrology is not even pseudo-science, it's completely calendrical numerological mysticism. Ancient western astrology atleast was pseudo-science (they could identify constellations and knew what the sky looked like), and some other traditions that are not found in Western Civilization's newspaper columns do actually look at the sky. 184.144.160.156 (talk) 07:01, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Citation templates now support more identifiers
Recent changes were made to citations templates (such as citation, cite journal, cite web...). In addition to what was previously supported (bibcode, doi, jstor, isbn, ...), templates now support arXiv, ASIN, JFM, LCCN, MR, OL, OSTI, RFC, SSRN and Zbl. Before, you needed to place id (or worse http://arxiv.org/abs/0123.4567), now you can simply use 0123.4567, likewise for id and http://www.jstor.org/stable/0123456789 &rarr; 0123456789.

The full list of supported identifiers is given here (with dummy values):



Obviously not all citations needs all parameters, but this streamlines the most popular ones and gives both better metadata and better appearances when printed. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 02:28, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. The arXiv template has an archive option; does one simply use the full path including the archive now? Or is there a separate archive option? Example: id= => id= &mdash;RJH (talk) 23:06, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Yeah just put the full path.

becomes

Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 14:35, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Supermoon, hurricanes and earthquakes
According to a report at the Fringe theories noticeboard, there is likely to be some enthusiastic editing regarding the influence of the moon on extreme weather and the 2011 Sendai earthquake and tsunami. Opinions on a section recently added to Orbit of the Moon would be welcome at that article's talk page. Also see Supermoon. Johnuniq (talk) 06:42, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
 * As long as it is countered by reason and logic, such otherwise flaky things are perhaps an opportunity to promote some astronomical knowledge. :-) &mdash;RJH (talk) 16:27, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Big Bang
Big Bang has been requested to be renamed, see Talk:Big Bang. -- 184.144.160.156 (talk) 13:23, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Bot requests/Archive 41
I've made a request for a bot to try and guess bibcodes for the most popular astronomy journals / journals with the biggest presence in the ADSABS database. Feedback is welcome. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 03:59, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Renaming List of molecules in interstellar space?
The List of molecules in interstellar space article contains several molecules that have only been found in circumstellar space. I think it would make sense to rename it to List of interstellar and circumstellar molecules. Before moving this article, I wanted to see if there were any issues you might have. Thanks.&mdash;RJH (talk) 19:57, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The article has been renamed.&mdash;RJH (talk) 18:25, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Bots gone wild
Holy smokes, those citation edit bots are running amuck. This makes it difficult to monitor articles for vandalism. I hope they will be done soon.&mdash;RJH (talk) 22:22, 15 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Just hide the bots from your watchlist? Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 04:01, 16 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately I can't do that because sometimes a bot will utterly frag an article and that needs to be caught.&mdash;RJH (talk) 15:00, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Criticism of magnetic reconnection
Talk:Magnetic reconnection could use some input from people familiar with magnetic reconnection and solar physics. Should it be treated as a well-established theory or a developing one? - 2/0 (cont.) 18:09, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Lots of crap citations to The Journal of Business in astronomy articles
Taking a look at Special:WhatLinksHere/The Journal of Business reveals very odd results.

For example 90482 Orcus has which is pure nonense. It should be

This seems to affect several infoboxes and is too systematic to be due to random vandalism. It's either a dedicate vandal, or a malfunctioning bot. Someone should look into this (and cleanup the mess, I've done a few, but this is a slow process) Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 16:43, 17 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Seems to be a malfunctioning bot - in the case of 90482 Orcus, the link was added by Citation bot 1 (see this diff).  Scog (talk) 20:52, 17 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Shouldn't the journal name be Astrophysics rather than arΧiv:astro-ph/0702538? To be blunt, the "Cite arxiv" template is a horrible idea, and should never be used when the article was published in an actual journal. — Huntster (t @ c) 06:11, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


 * As far as I'm aware, this remains a preprint and hasn't been published in Astrophysics, hence cite arxiv instead of cite journal. BTW, if you use cite arxiv, it'll be upgraded by Citation bot if the preprint has been published. I also don't see what's "horrible" about cite arxiv, it's a great and very useful template. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 07:05, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I actually had meant to revert myself, just not in that fashion, because I realised after the fact that I wasn't certain about the use in this situation. I read the year=2007, and figured it must have been published already. — Huntster (t @ c) 08:49, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Ah my bad. The huggle/twinkle edit summary led me to believe it was a misclick. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 09:11, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Er, what? It's been published, and that citation as it currently stands is incorrect. This is worrying. I really wish these bots linked to the ADS record instead of arXiv, handy as arXiv is. Iridia (talk) 02:40, 19 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The citation is not incorrect, it's just outdated. Bots do link to the ADSABS records when the data is available BTW... Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 06:13, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Supermoon
Supermoon keeps changing between "In astrology" and "In astronomy" every few hours. Any opinion on that? (It said "In astrology and astronomy" at one point) 184.144.166.85 (talk) 13:31, 20 March 2011 (UTC)


 * See Fringe_theories. We do not add pseudoscience to articles just to give it parity with science. There's no reason to add astrology here, since astronomy covers the topic. — kwami (talk) 20:41, 20 March 2011 (UTC)


 * You're a language editor, not astronomy editor, as far as I can tell; And this is an astrology article, since it is a term coined by an astrologer for astrologers to use. 184.144.166.85 (talk) 05:34, 21 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree with kwami on this one. I think this article seems to give astrology undue merit. It also seems to have original research, with the claim about mag 8 earthquakes and dates of lunar events near the end.Astrocog (talk) 10:48, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Galactic archaeology
I just started it and could use a little help with the definition. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 02:15, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Assistance req'd - major edit intended to be appended to stub. "7604 Kridsadaporn"
Dear Wikipedia community,

I am very ne wat thgis - just 1 month since registering for a username and findinmg it all a bit daunting. I have written what is intended as a major edit to append to 7604 Kridsadaporn in my user subpage Article draft folder.

I hope that any one that has a few spare moments can comment upon this draft - I am not confident enough to append to that stub as I feel there must be many things to consider or alter before it could be considered being worthy of the quality required to put into main-space articles.

The part that most worries me is perhaps the heading "Discovery and naming" - many Google/translate references to the Thai langauge - I don't know if Google/translate is an acceptable reference source for Wikipedia standards. If not, can I simply leave those references out and leave the text as is ??? - leaving it up to the reader to translate themselves if they need. The reference numbers [8] and [10] are bothering me most.

As mentioned I feel like a bull in a china shop - lacking the sofistication of experienced editors - as mentioned before, its been a single month since first registering at Wikipedia. Hope you can help me, please. --NehruR42 14:38, 18 April 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by NehruR42 (talk • contribs)
 * Note: the draft appears to be at User:NehruR42/Article draft.&mdash;RJH (talk)


 * I've not been through it in any great detail, but that looks like a good draft. It's properly referenced and mostly well formatted, and once it's in the main article space other editors will gradually improve it over time. Please be bold and incorporate it into the 7604 Kridsadaporn article!
 * Once you've done that, I do have two suggestions, though neither is major:
 * The discussion on the name is rather over-involved and could be reduced to a couple of sentences simply stating what the name means. You could also get rid of the Google Translate references you mentioned.
 * The Tisserand parameter is mentioned in a strange order - it would be better if the article followed an order something along the lines of 'the Tisserand parameter (which means ) for this asteroid is . This is usual because few asteroids had previously been found with these values of the Tisserand parameter' and so on.
 * Thanks for taking the time to contribute, and don't be afraid to add to articles - if your changes are straightforward improvements and expansions then there's really no need to ask for approval first. Modest Genius talk 16:11, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

New Star
I shouldn't be saying this, but I have added Gliese 745 to wikipedia. It's a binary red dwarf system in sagittarius. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clammybells (talk • contribs) 09:17, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Why do you think you shouldn't you be saying this? :-) &mdash;RJH (talk)

Template:Red-dwarf-stub
Red-dwarf-stub has been nominated to be renamed, see WP:SFD April 23. 65.94.45.160 (talk) 10:11, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Proper names (astronomy)
This article is really unbalanced. It used to be called traditional star names, now it's just a section in the renamed article, except there is nothing else. It appears to have been a campaign last year by a user to remove "traditional name" from the titles of several star-related articles, because they are not "traditional in astronomy" (though, I think stars exist outside of astronomy terms as well... in culture, where there are traditions) 65.94.45.160 (talk) 11:32, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I added a sentence plus a bundle of citations. Hope that helps.&mdash;RJH (talk) 15:59, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I was thinking maybe it should be restored to its old name, or Proper names of stars, and some other content fill the current title. 65.94.45.160 (talk) 06:09, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not so sure. The use of the term "proper name" seems pretty conventional and the meaning is clearer. "Proper names" are also used to designate the names of bodies in the Solar System as well as galaxies and nebulae, so it's not just stars.&mdash;RJH (talk) 14:30, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
 * There's no other content on the page, except for stars, so the current name is unsuited to its content. 65.94.45.160 (talk) 06:25, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

AfD
Please see: Articles for deletion/Planetarium hypothesis. Thanks. Jaque Hammer (talk) 15:48, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Antigalaxy
has been nominated for deletion. 65.94.45.160 (talk) 06:26, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

SN 1054
I came upon this on an "Articles for Translation" page. It is a somewhat awkward translation from French Wikipedia. In a perfect world, it would benefit from the attention of someone who knows both astronomy and French, but the next best thing would be some copy-editing by someone familiar with astronomical terms. Thanks, Jonathanwallace (talk) 11:39, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Not everything has been translated, particularly, the notes (not references, but notes) have several that are not translated. The translation also left several references behind at the French Wikipedia which were not transferred over to English Wikipedia when it was translated, leaving missing references. 65.94.45.160 (talk) 06:34, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Marion S. (Sally) Oey
Marion S. (Sally) Oey has been requested to be renamed to Sally Oey by someone claiming to be the astronomer herself. 64.229.100.153 (talk) 04:06, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Epsilon Lyrae
Someone added a flashing dot to the starmap on Epsilon Lyrae. Should we be using that? 64.229.100.153 (talk) 06:33, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It seems like a useful approach as long as the overlaid animated image displays at the correct location in everybody's browser.&mdash;RJH (talk) 14:15, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * But should it flash? 65.94.45.230 (talk) 05:33, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It doesn't actually flash, it's more a pulsing effect. But I think a static indicator would look better. That's what's used on geographic place articles, which have presumably had rather more discussion on this point. Modest Genius talk 11:32, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It looks like there are a variety of dot symbols that can be used. For example, see the svg files at the Commons Category:Dots.&mdash;RJH (talk) 15:22, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Gliese 581 planet g
I just finished citing http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/05/110516080124.htm in updates I applied to Gliese 581. ScienceDaily's article was based on something published in The Astrophysical Journal Letters. According to that ref, "Many now believe that Gliese 581 g may not exist at all. Instead, it may simply be a result of noise in the ultra-fine measurements of stellar 'wobble' needed to detect exoplanets in this system." I'm confident that this detail, once confirmed, will over time make its way into all the relevant articles. But I wanted to draw your attention to the use of File:Gliese581 2010.png in. If current consensus questions planet g's existence, I think the template's image should either be removed or at least be switched back to File:Gliese581.png. Thanks. 67.101.6.194 (talk) 19:55, 16 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Just to make clear, there is nothing in the article that suggests the comment "Many now believe that Gliese 581 g may not exist at all. Instead, it may simply be a result of noise in the ultra-fine measurements of stellar 'wobble' needed to detect exoplanets in this system." came from The Astrophysical Journal, it is an opinion of the writer on the current state of the astronomical community's thoughts on the matter. This is the problem in reporting on science as fact when "facts" only come into being after long and vigorous debate turns into established dogma. These proposed planets are an important part of the history of the study of this star system, I don't think we need yet erase them from the record until the dogma has fully taken hold. I do think however it would be appropriate to place "(unconfirmed)" after the planets in question in . ChiZeroOne (talk) 20:29, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

European Southern Observatory PR
An editor has posted a request for a Peer Review of the European Southern Observatory article. See Peer review/European Southern Observatory/archive1. Regards, RJH (talk) 22:01, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Vetting needed on "stellar core collapse" draft article
I'm posting here on the suggestion of RJH. I am writing a fairly substantial article on stellar core collapse. Because of the scope of this topic, its technical nature in parts, and its connections to numerous fields (physics, astronomy, cosmology) I would like to ask in advance for any users prepared to review it for accuracy, omissions, and "latest research findings" before I move it to mainspace. Would anyone interested or knowledgeable please let me know on my talk page. Estimated timeline - not less than 3 weeks and maybe more as I have a lot left to do before I would feel I've done "all I can".

Thanks for any help you can offer!

FT2 (Talk 00:34, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

AAVSO
with the 100th anniversary of AAVSO this year, it might be a good time to improve the article. The current "Astronomy" magazine has a profile on the organization. 65.95.13.213 (talk) 21:29, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

NGC 4444 expansion?
Guys, can you help expand NGC 4444? I found this a heavily tagged stub. I did some fixes and added some refs but I can't translate some of the astronomy data like coordinates and other stuff.-- Lenticel ( talk ) 00:05, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The article is growing nicely. Good job guys keep it up! :)-- Lenticel ( talk ) 23:25, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

recent changes by Orphadeus
Orphadeus has made a number of recent additions to Astronomy pages with links to intrinsic redshift/electric universe sites. I've reverted some of them, but a revision war appears to be starting at Metric_expansion_of_space. Suggestions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Parejkoj (talk • contribs) 17:10, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * You appear to be hashing it out on the talk page. That's probably the best place for it. I'd suggest holding off on the reverting to see if the editor can reach a reasonable compromise, but I know that isn't always possible.&mdash;RJH (talk) 19:14, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

This is turning into a revert war, as Orphadeus has not heeded any of my comments on the talk page and continues to misinterpret papers and add non-WP:RS sources. My comments in Talk:Metric_expansion_of_space appear to be entirely ignored. Suggestions? - Parejkoj (talk) 16:15, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, as you undoubtedly know, he is correct in that Halton Arp has been a long time critic of the Big Bang theory in general, and there is no reason to try to suppress that. (Other notables include Hannes Alfvén, Geoffrey Burbidge, Fred Hoyle and Robert Gentry.) Whether this article is the best place for it, I don't know, but it might be better to collectively discuss the opposition to the theory in an article. That way we are in compliance with WP:NPOV. (See, by way of comparison, Objections to evolution.)&mdash;RJH (talk) 17:03, 20 May 2011 (UTC)


 * There is already a Non-standard_cosmology page, where these ideas are given time of their own. As with Objections to evolution and Global_warming_controversy, such fringe ideas do not belong on pages that discuss the currently held standard scientific views.  Arp's ideas are very, very fringe, and do not belong on any of the pages about the standard cosmology. Remember WP:FRINGE - Parejkoj (talk) 17:17, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
 * You probably mean WP:VALID or WP:ONEWAY. Perhaps mentioning Non-standard_cosmology during the talk page discussion may help; the editor could be satisfied with a link to that article in a "See also" section. Regards, RJH (talk) 17:36, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, those also apply. I'll mention it, but as I said, he's completely ignored all my other suggestions, and he doesn't understand the papers he is citing to claim support for his fringe idea. - Parejkoj (talk) 18:43, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Orphadeus has now completely re-written Extinction_(astronomy) making it full of falsehoods, inaccuracies and misleading statements, and removing most of the valid scientific references and discussion. I have pointed some of these problems out on the talk page, but Orphadeus has not responded to any of my comments on the talk page, and has kept making the same inaccurate changes. Now what? - Parejkoj (talk) 19:33, 26 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that's a pretty ridiculous rewrite, which that user laughably refers to as 'near-perfect'. If you think there's a systematic problem with this user, can provide evidence, and have tried to address the problems on both the article and user talk pages, I suggest you bring it up on WP:ANI. Modest Genius talk 19:39, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Well it's clearly not vandalism, but he definitely didn't improve the article and his edit removed meaningful knowledge and citations. It's WP:DISRUPT behavior. Perhaps he needs to be steered toward http://simple.wikipedia.org/ ? Regards, RJH (talk) 22:22, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed, which is why I stuck a uw-disruptive3 on their talk page. Modest Genius talk 13:37, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Although it is not related to astronomy, my past experiance with this user (see Talk:Number of the Beast), combined with his behavior in other articles confirms to me a complete inability or refusal to grasp WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, and WP:RS. The fact that he had have the word "archive" explained repeatedly (see his talk page) really doesn't make him look like a productive or competent editor.  I would not recommend steering him to simple Wikipedia, because I believe he would only cause problems there as well.  Ian.thomson (talk) 18:55, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Center of gravity
There's a dispute in progress at a new article:. I think it would benefit from more participants (currently there are only three). Melchoir (talk) 07:28, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Anon contributions need vetting
(Cross-posted from WT:PHYS.)

has recently made a series of edits to several cosmology articles, mostly concerning heat death and related concepts. It's hard for me to tell whether the edits are legitimate or not; if someone with expertise could look them over, that would be handy. --Christopher Thomas (talk) 16:53, 2 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Looks legitimate enough to me. Not the best-explained prose ever, and could do with referencing, but the concepts seem to be right. Modest Genius talk 21:55, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

New stub types
Hi all - just a heads-up that two new stub types relating to your project have just been created:
 * Solar-eclipse-stub / and
 * Lunar-eclipse-stub /

The first of these should greatly reduce the nmber of stubs loose in the main and will be a subcategory of it - the second will be a subcategory of the existing. Any help youn can give in moving articles over to the new stub types will be greatly appreciated, though much of it will be done by WP:WikiProject Stub sorting. If you've got any comments or questions, please drop a note at WT:WSS. Thanks - and I hope the new stub types are useful to you! Grutness...wha?  02:14, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
 * A couple more astronomy-related stub types have been proposed at WP:WSS, as well - input from your WikiProject would be very welcome here! Grutness...wha?  11:29, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Mmm, well moving stub templates from one type to another doesn't seem to be especially useful activity. I'd rather just work on creating and improving articles. Sorry. Regards, RJH (talk) 15:03, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Doesn't matter - they're all done now. As to not being especially useful, it'll now be far easier for members of your project to find the stub articles. Anyone interested specifically in eclipses will have all the stubs relating to them in one place separate from unrelated articles. I'd say that's a pretty useful thing. Grutness...wha?  02:11, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
 * There is a guy who is interested in that. He even tried to make his very own wikiproject on eclipses (actually two, one for solar, one for lunar). 65.94.47.63 (talk) 07:04, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Observatories without geographical coordinates
I've put together a list of articles about astronomical observatories which so far don't have geographical coordinates added at User:The Anome/Observatories without coordinates. If you'd like to add coordinates to these articles, and don't know how to do this already, WP:COORD has advice about how to add them. -- The Anome (talk) 13:35, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * That's useful. I had a glance through, but couldn't see any major research observatories. That suggests we're actually doing fairly well. A few points:
 * Why are the US states listed individually rather than in a section entitled United States?
 * Several of the articles listed are actually telescopes which don't have coordinates, but the article on the observatory they are part of does. For example, the Siding Spring 2.3 m Telescope has no coordinates but the article on Siding Spring Observatory does have coordinates. Same for MPG/ESO telescope / La Silla Observatory and Discovery Channel Telescope / Lowell Observatory. Of course it would be nice to have precise coordinates of each telescope, but I'm guessing there are many more telescope articles missing this info. Bad categorisation?
 * A few entries have no need for coordinates: Overwhelmingly Large Telescope was never built. Virtual Observatory India is a software project. European Northern Observatory is an umbrella organisation covering two different observing sites on separate islands.
 * Modest Genius</b> talk 14:03, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Someone with a bit of time and patience (or skilled at writing a bot) could go through this list of observatory coordinates which might be of help. Iridia (talk) 06:42, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Super Nova
The usage of is under discussion, see Talk:Darius Force.

65.94.47.63 (talk) 06:26, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Solar eclipse of September 26, 2117
The map image in Solar eclipse of September 26, 2117 is just a red link. Maybe someone who knows how these images are made could do this one (it seems to be the only solar eclipse article with a missing map). --Zundark (talk) 12:03, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Primordial black holes at Talk:Gamma-ray burst
An anon recently commented at Talk:Gamma-ray burst claiming that there is now strong evidence that short-duration bursts are due to primordial black hole evaporation. The link they provide is to a conference paper, not a journal paper, and it doesn't appear to be a survey article (so it reflects one group's opinion rather than academic consensus). That said, astronomy is not my field. Would someone who follows the literature be willing to check to see if consensus has changed in the last few years, and comment at that thread? --Christopher Thomas (talk) 06:20, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Gamma-ray burst
Gamma-ray burst is today's featured article, some more attention might want to be paid to it for the next few days. 65.94.47.63 (talk) 05:48, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
 * For your convenience, here is the current delta. (I find it easiest to do a comparison between just before it hits the front page and just after it leaves the "Recently featured" list. By that time most of the vandalism has been removed.) Regards, RJH (talk) 20:21, 22 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Most of the changes in that diff look fine to me, but there's one change in the last paragraph of Gamma-ray burst that could use vetting. "...such as galaxy halos and intergalactic space" was changd to "...such as elliptical galaxies and galaxy halos", with the reference remaining the same. If someone with expertise in the field could verify that the reference does indeed say that, that would be handy. There was a similar change made earlier in the text, but not as closely coupled with a reference. --Christopher Thomas (talk) 20:34, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Heliosynchronous orbit
has been prodded for deletion. 65.94.47.63 (talk) 06:47, 22 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I've started a discussion thread at Talk:Heliosynchronous orbit. --Christopher Thomas (talk) 20:35, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

History of Mars
has been nominated for deletion. 65.94.47.63 (talk) 05:06, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Diagrams for orbits
Please see: Template talk:Infobox planet. Thanks! — <span style="font-family: Courier New, monospace ;font-style:italic">V = IR (Talk&thinsp;&bull;&thinsp;Contribs) 22:03, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Bulge (astronomy)
I changed this article to a Start class as it did not seem to fit into the category of a Stub. I am currently working on it for references as it looks like a lot of the references were only placed once in the article by the previous editor(s). A second opinion on it would be nice though. Marx01 Tell me about it 00:17, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Request for review/feedback of eclipse season.
It is currently rated stub. I think it should be upgraded to start. Also any feedback on the article (is it comprehensible/hopelessly confusing) would be much appreciated! Once I understood what an eclipse season was, eclipse frequency and cyclity made a whole lot more sense. --TimL (talk) 03:42, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Newcomb's formula at AfD
The article Newcomb's formula has been nominated for deletion. Your expert recommendations are welcome as to whether this is a notable topic deserving an article by itself, or should redirect to another article – and if so, which one. --Lambiam 19:21, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Article about new quasar
I just created an article, ULAS J1120+0641, about a newly reported quasar with the largest redshift ever measured. It is possible that a mention of this will shortly appear in the In the News section on the front page, so if there are any actual astronomers around who could give this a quick once-over to check for errors, it might perhaps be useful. Regards, Looie496 (talk) 03:23, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Just for the record, the regulars at ITN contacted me before they posted. I gave it a going over before it went up on the Main Page. It's not the best article on the planet (certainly wouldn't pass GA in its current state), but at least there aren't any actual errors I'm aware of. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 22:05, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

GRB 090429B
This new article GRB 090429B needs a review by somebody in Astronomy. Thanks. Safiel (talk) 04:16, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Gamma Ray Burst -- recent edits
You might want to pay attention to. The article has been edited by, the primary author of GRB 090429B, who has repeatedly inserted mentions of it as the most distant object in the universe into the GRB article (not true, there's a z>10 galaxy that was announced a few months ago, which we have an article on). On recent edits he's been using questionable quality references, and poorly cited references to support rewriting the article. 65.93.15.213 (talk) 06:08, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Table summarizing origins of elements?
I was reading a book about the origin of elements, and it was great reading. I looked for an article in WP that summarized the source of elements, but I could not find one. I see there are a few articles related to the topic: Nucleosynthesis, Big Bang nucleosynthesis, Stellar nucleosynthesis, and Supernova nucleosynthesis. But I was looking for a table/list that enumerated the elements and identified the process that generated them (at least, the most common process). Question: Is there such an article already in WP? Would such an article have merit? I've got a few sources already, but are there additional sources that others can recommend that cover the topic? Thanks. --Noleander (talk) 19:37, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The closest thing we have that I'm aware of is the discussion at Chemical_element. There's no table though. You could try asking at the talk page of that article, or at WP:RDS. If none exists, you could certainly create one. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 19:57, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Number of stars close to the Sun
In the articles about neighbourhoods of the Sun, such as Local Interstellar Cloud, Local Bubble and Orion–Cygnus Arm, I think it would be a great improvement to include some kind of estimate on the number of stars in them. The LB article, for example, opens with an image that while aesthetically pleasing might give a layman the impression that the Sun and β CMa are the only stars there, which is of course terribly wrong. Now, I think I understand that the problem here is that we don't really know enough about these things to be able to say for sure. But even knowing if a star count is closer to 100, 103, 106 or 109 would be great information for those of us who constantly get lost in the vastness of our home galaxy. Perhaps what would be really interesting to know is the approximate proportion of all visible objects (or all objects above some threshold of apparent magnitude) that are located in the region in question. Just a suggestion from someone too ignorant to implement it himself. :) 85.226.206.229 (talk) 11:06, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd think that finding an absolute count on the number of stars in those regions would be rather difficult. But you might be able to find a total mass estimate. Regards, RJH (talk) 14:21, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) For the really faint low-mass stars and brown dwarfs, we can barely detect them at all, let alone all the way to the edge of the Local Bubble. And the bubble itself is probably open at both ends, extending into the halo. I agree that the NASA image with only two stars in it is misleading, but don't know how we could do better. If you want a better impression of how many stars are inside the bubble, take a look at the plots in (which of course only plots stars that were included in their analysis, the true number would probably be at least ten times that many). The LIC is another issue, because it's not really a region within which stars reside, but a poorly-defined and very difficult to measure cloud of gas.
 * 2) There is a big problem with the standard 'Salpeter' IMF - if you integrate the total number of stars, you get infinity. The total mass is a fixed number for some given set of IMF parameters, but the IMF predicts an infinite number of very small stars. This is clearly incorrect, and has been known about for decades, but without a good understanding of a) fragmentation within star formation and b) the numbers of brown dwarfs and other low-mass products, we have no idea what the correct form of the IMF should be at low ends. On top of that, the IMF is for a fixed burst of star formation, whilst the population of e.g. the Local Bubble or a spiral arm are from many generations of star formation, over a long time, during which many of the higher mass stars will have come to the end of their lives. All of this means we can't use the IMF to predict the number of stars in those regions.
 * 3) RJH has a good point on total mass estimates, which may be possible. I've never seen any for the regions you mention though (and the Local Bubble is an area I do actual research in). <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 20:16, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your interesting replies; I certainly do appreciate the difficulties involved. Perhaps we could have, in at least some of the cases, an estimate on the number of known stars? That would be a lot lower than the actual number, but it would still remove the reader from possible extreme misconceptions. 85.226.206.229 (talk) 08:19, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
 * That's a good suggestion, though I don't know where you could find such estimates. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 11:34, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Astrology in star articles
This was brought up at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Astronomical objects, but we though it could use a wider audience. A few users have started adding a lot of astrology stuff to articles about stars, beginning with Algol (see the long discussion at Talk:Algol). User:MakeSense64 noticed some pre-discussion about this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Astrology and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Astrology. Could some other folks please comment? I pointed out a page specifically devoted to Stars in astrology, but they want to start including such things on the regular pages, which as MakeSense64 pointed out at the bottom of Talk:Algol, is a significant change from the way other astronomy pages are handled. - Parejkoj (talk) 18:46, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

International Space Station
Is the ISS as bright as Venus, Brighter or comparable ? Is looking through a telescope at the ISS even astronomy ? is it an astronomical object ? We could use some help here. Anyone got 10 minutes ? Please come to the ISS talk page to help. Penyulap  talk 15:46, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

nominated International Space Station for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Please understand, this is about an effort to improve the article, and get some new blood and new ideas into this article. Penyulap  talk 15:46, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Probably Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spaceflight is a more appropriate place to discuss this. Thanks. Regards, RJH (talk) 17:45, 28 June 2011 (UTC)


 * My apologies, I thought I had seen overlap when I had looked to find a definitive answer to the question, are satellite spotters astronomers ? The many people who photograph the international space station using telescope mounted cameras use the term astrophotographer, and their activities are within it's common-use meaning, but as for it's technical meaning, astronomy seems to be the observation of astronomical objects, and the ISS as with other artificial satellites appears to fall outside the definition of astronomical objects. However, no mention or guidance was obvious to me on the pages, as I had seen them when I went looking. I thought this may be of interest. I thought that by assisting answering these simple-ish questions, you'd come back to your own pages with a fresh perspective allowing you to see the possible omissions regarding man-made objects in the heavens. Places where a little more clarity may be considered for the definitions. Sometimes it's not easy for (you) absolute experts in a field to see it from a novice perspective, so a small holiday in a fresh perspective helps. Just a thought, I'm on holiday myself at the moment, just catching up on on messages. Sincerest thanks once again Uncle Bob ! (RJH) your work on the article was spectacular and I'm sure I didn't thank you enough on your talkpage, I was blown away by it's quality. I just thought I'd add this food-for-thought here for your buddies to chew on. Penyulap   talk 14:14, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah blush. Well I think photographing the ISS would fall under the same category as the hobby of satellite watching. Mostly I think satellites just get in the way of observational astronomy. Regards, RJH (talk) 16:36, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't see why spotting artificial satellites shouldn't count as astronomy, any less than looking for meteors. OK they won't be much in the way of research coming out of it, but that doesn't disqualify it. Amateur astronomy is still astronomy. Having said all that, there isn't a huge amount astronomers can contribute to the ISS page... <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 22:10, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I know this isn't a forum, nevertheless, one of the more satisfying things I have done in my life is shown those I care about the ISS passing overhead. Technically it's not astronomy, this is a man-made object after all. Or is it? Once we put something into space, does it fall under the umbrella of astronomy once it gets there, man-made or not? Quite a philosophical question, or not, depending on your point of view. Hopefully the ISS article has some emphasis on how easy it is to view, I'll take a look. As I was showing it to my parents a neighbor came out, wondering what the heck we were staring at, so this is of popular interest IMO (ISS visibility is notable). --TimL (talk) 03:42, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I am delighted to see I have inspired the discussion I had intended from the start. Please, oh please, take this up wheresoever you go, to the observatories, clubs, social groups and forums, because right now, there seems to be no guidance about this on any of the related pages, or anywhere I can find. I think that means it needs more discussion and definition in the wider Astronomy community. At the moment, there is just the common-use term the astrophotographers use to guide me. I disagree with you Modest Genius, I think there is a great deal that you could contribute to the ISS page, there has been a lot of misunderstanding over the ISS magnitude of late, so a paragraph about how the magnitude of an object is determined (I have ZERO idea about this) and how the ISS magnitude relates to other objects magnitude, such as Venus, would be WOW. I know we will have found just what we need when that paragraph guides potential magnitude editors to a better understanding of magnitude and consensus. Uncle Bob, I'd like to apologize about the ISS being in the way 8-) it's getting pretty big these days, it's only a matter of time before it starts cutting us off in traffic. :D Tim, I am so right there with you, though I must admit the not-often-used 8" Dob proved more popular a week ago at a bonfire/BBQ looking at the moon than my pointing out the ISS has so far. (which makes me think I want to make a fast tracker for the ISS for my manual scope). Penyulap   talk 12:08, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

1999 LE31
It's my first asteroid article. Could someone please give it a quick look-see? Many thanks if you can. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 17:53, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Hello Anna. It looks fine so far; better than many minor planet articles I think. Some of the paragraphs are a little short, so you might want to do a couple of merges. Regards, RJH (talk) 14:55, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I appreciate the feedback, and will take your advice. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 15:17, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Eclipses
Some editors here may be interested in WikiProject Eclipses, which is currently undergoing revival. Cheers, Mlm42 (talk) 20:12, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Is "Coordinated Universal Time" a good article?
I have nominated Coordinated Universal Time as a good article. Go to the talk page to evaluate it or offer your views. See the topmost box for a link on how to evaluate the article. Jc3s5h (talk) 20:42, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

WP:JCW and astronomy
The JCW compilation updated a while ago. Here's the top-cited missing journals that are astronomy-related. • Astronomical Observations from Space Vehicles

• Astronomical Society of the Pacific Leaflets

• Communications of the Lunar and Planetary Laboratory

• Contributi Osservatorio Astronomico di Padova in Asiago

• Lunar and Planetary Science

• Proceedings of the International Astronomical Union

• Publications of the Astronomical Society of Japan

• Solar System Research If you're interested to help, WikiProject Academic Journals/Writing guide has some guidance about how to write an article on journals. Any help you can give would be much appreciated at WP:JOURNALS. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 16:52, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Proc IAU is not a journal, but rather a series of conference proceedings, most on the IAU Symposia. PASJ is indeed a small astronomy journal, which we should probably cover (though most likely as a part of an article on the society itself). The others I'll confess to never having heard of. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 19:45, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * By "journal" it's implied that it's "journal, monographs, conference proceedings, ..." and other periodicals. Astronomical Communications from Space Vehicles refers specifically to "Astronomical Observations from Space Vehicles, Proceedings from Symposium no. 23 held in Liege, Belgium, 17 to 20 August 1964." which seems to be quoted in several articles on X-Ray sources. An article on the series of symposia would probably be the ideal solution, with a redirect there for Astronomical Communications from Space Vehicles. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 20:54, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Asteroid Infoboxes
A number of the articles on Asteroids could do with their hardcoded infoboxes replaced with a version using Infobox planet. I've tagged them on the talk pages using Newinfobox and the following link lists them all. -- WOSlinker (talk) 22:17, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, there are literally thousands of minor planet articles on WP. Trying to maintain them would be a full time job. RJH (talk) 22:49, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Book:Nucleosynthesis
I created this early, but I'm certainly no expert on nucleosynthesis. It would be nice if people could take a glance at it (are there missing articles? does the structure of the book make sense? etc...) and leave feedback at Book talk:Nucleosynthesis. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 21:09, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

WP:ECLIPSES
This had ben a "child" project of WikiProject Space which is now defunct and has apparently become WikiProject Astronomy. Thus I have made WikiProject Eclipses a subproject of WikiProject Astronomy. This only shows up in categorization for now, and that is fine. --TimL (talk) 20:23, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
 * That should work. Thank you. Regards, RJH (talk) 20:55, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

FYI
A deletion discussion has been started at Articles for deletion/William D. Ferris. Yoninah (talk) 22:07, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

multiple infoboxes for impact craters
Is it really needed to create separate crater infobox for Venus and Mercury? Bulwersator (talk) 11:41, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Not really, but does it matter in the slightest whether there are separate infoboxes? I suppose that if you merged them, you may get some tiny gain in an organizational sense. The issue then would be substituting the large number of copies, for which task a script would be eminently suited. But if nobody wants to script the task, there is little point in bothering. Regards, RJH (talk) 21:59, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * So I can convert it? Because it is problem for my image importer, and it probably will be problem for sb else with different bot. Additionaly it makes wikipedia more confusing for newcomers Bulwersator (talk) 05:35, 22 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I found Infobox Lunar crater and Infobox Mars crater. To make it more confusing I found it in successful deletion discussion over "Infobox crater". I see problem with "Infobox promotes confusion by combining under the topic of craters various unrelated geologic processes including impacts, volcanoes, sinkholes and stream erosion.", but I see no point for separated infoboxes for impact crater on Venus, Mercury etc Bulwersator (talk) 05:42, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * For example Airy-0, crater on Mars is using template:Infobox crater data


 * Comparison of Infobox crater data with other templates:
 * template:Infobox crater data (additional "titlecolor", "globe", and "globe type")


 * Template:Infobox Lunar crater - additional "colong" parameter, without "discoverer" and "coordinates_footnotes"
 * Template:Infobox Mars crater (+ redirect Template:MarsGeo-Crater) - no additional differences
 * Template:Infobox Mercury crater (+ redirect Mercury crater data) without "discoverer"
 * Template:Infobox Venus crater - (+ redirect Infobox Venus crater) without "discoverer", "region", no additional parameters


 * Template:Infobox terrestrial impact site different photo formatting, different location formatting, multiple additional parameters

So I suggest to merge "Infobox XXXX crater" to Template:Infobox extraterrestrial impact site as Template:Infobox terrestrial impact site is completely different for following reasons:
 * Confusing for editors
 * especially for bots and newcomers
 * I needed hour to adjust my bot to this mess, with Template:Infobox Mountain I needed hour to prepare code for loading data from 19 Wikipedias
 * Potential uncontrolled template explosion (Template:Infobox (101955) 1999 RQ36 crater?)
 * Incoherence in use (For example Airy-0, crater on Mars is using template:Infobox crater data)

There is one problem - "colongitude". There are two solutions:
 * Include this to integrated template, enabled when globe is Moon
 * Integrate only "Mars crater", "Mercury crater", "Venus crater" and keep Lunar crater.

Opinions? I will invite editors from successful deletion discussion over "Infobox crater" and template creators but I prefer to check, maybe it is competely wrong idea. -- sorry for my poor English, Bulwersator (talk) 07:59, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * A common template design will also allow for mass updates. It sounds like a task you are highly motivated to perform. I'd say go for it. The WP:TfD criteria allow for deletion of redundant templates if there is a better designed version available. Regards, RJH (talk) 14:41, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the invitation to comment. Best to have one template, with the others calling it, and pre-populate where appropriate. See Infobox settlement for examples of this in practice. is perhaps an over-long name.  Andy Mabbett (User: Pigsonthewing ); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 14:57, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * as base infobox and, maybe as specialized variants? Bulwersator (talk) 15:06, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * it seems that what I proposed is what we already have; with Infobox Venus crater calling Infobox crater data, for example. Andy Mabbett (User: Pigsonthewing ); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 15:22, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * So substitution of Mars, Venus and Mercury crater is easy way to do it. Bulwersator (talk) 16:35, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The colongitude parameter would only ever need to be used for near side lunar craters, so adding 'colong' as a parameter to the general template would allow Infobox Lunar crater to translude Infobox crater data with globe=Moon. Regards, RJH (talk) 15:33, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * What should be displayed for infoboxes with colong and globe≠Moon and globe≠ Moon ? Nothing, error? Bulwersator (talk) 03:58, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
 * If the field is blank, there's not really an reason to display it. I don't think it needs special logic. You could just explain the purpose of the field in the template document. Thanks. Regards, RJH (talk) 17:32, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Fewer infobox templates simplifies everything for users. Alternatively, creating a template for each planet's craters works as long as they all reference one another in the "See also" and call upon some higher level organizational template such as Infobox crater data. This parent organization is already set up but possibly incomplete. The name Infobox crater data may be misleading in that it does not reference the "various solar system bodies" that it is intended to apply to. As most of the field parameters are similar across planets and editors/astronomers can update them if they are not. There should also be some instructions on Infobox crater data as to how to translude the fields to other templates (planets /earth ...). I agree that Template:Infobox extraterrestrial impact site as Template:Infobox terrestrial impact site are unnecessarily long names. My personal preference would be to have one infobox template for all geological features where the various field parameters only show when they are filled (and logical). I admit that the infoboxes for lakes, mountains and impact structures are useful but at the same time a lot of that content could simply be in the article rather than in a specially formatted infobox.--YakbutterT (talk) 21:14, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Input on RfC requested
Please see Talk:Ophiuchus and indicate if you think the term "zodiacal longitude" means anything at all, and whether the meaning of "sign of the zodiac" is well enough defined to be used as it currently is in the article. Jc3s5h (talk) 18:05, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

SN 1961V
I just finished a version of an article on the potential supernova impostor SN 1961V. I'm not that knowledgeable about astronomy so I'd appreciate it if the more knowledge individual (presumably people here) could take a quick look and help correct any egregious errors. JoshuaZ (talk) 00:52, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

4th Pluto Moon
can anyone please have a look at the Lemma of the article S/2011 P 1? The designation given there is wrong, as Pluto is no longer considered a Planet. With Pluto being a dwarf planet, the correct designation is "S/2011 (134340) 1". This designation is also confirmed in the IAU release on the discovery of this moon. As IAU is the only authority to asign these provisional designations, the article should be named this way. Please see also Astronomical naming conventions on this topic. Thanks, --Spiritus Rector (talk) 08:18, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Makes sense. You might try listing it at WP:RM. Regards, RJH (talk) 19:16, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Zeta Apodis
There are two separate articles, Zeta Apodis and Z Apodis.

It isn't clear if these are two different things.

There is a further confusion, because Ζ Apodis - that is, with a greek Ζ, not a letter Z - redirects to the first one.

If they should be two separate articles, some kind of hatnote might be helpful, such as; ''"Ζ Apodis" (with the Greek letter Zeta) redirects here. For the star in the constellation of Apus, see Z Apodis (with the letter Z).''

If, however, they're the same subect, some kind of merge might be more appropriate.

Could someone who understands such things please sort it out?

Note, this comes from a helpdesk query,.  Chzz  ► 08:04, 4 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I've subsequently done my best with this, because someone pointed out that it wouldn't normally create confusion when written as lowercase, ie ζ.
 * So, I've changed the redir to use a lowercase title (this, see ), and added hatnotes, and . Does that sort it out? Feel free to edit/improve on it, of course.  Chzz  ►  12:18, 4 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Those are definitely two different stars. The zeta is a Bayer designation, whilst the Z is a variable star designation. The lowercase zeta should indeed redirect like that, but of course all article titles get capitalised, hence the confusion. This is undoubtedly true for all other constellations, though whilst we probably have articles for all zeta *s we probably don't have them for all Z *s. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 13:38, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, similar problems will also exist for any other Greek letter which capitalises to look like a Latin one e.g. omicron, alpha etc. Again for all constellations. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 13:41, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for answering. Do you think those hatnotes are sufficient to clarify it, then?  Chzz  ► 18:51, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Sure, the current ones are perfectly adequate. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 14:38, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Moonlight intensity?
Three of our articles, moonlight, daylight and lux say that the light of a full moon can attain a level of 1 lux when overhead at tropical latitudes. They all cite the same reference for this claim: "Bunning, Erwin; and Moser, Ilse (April 1969).Interference of moonlight with the photoperiodic measurement of time by plants, and their adaptive reaction. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 62 (4): 1018–1022. ." That paper says "With the altitude of the moon at 60°, the intensity may reach 0.7 lx.6 With the moon at still higher altitudes in tropical or sub tropical regions, the maximum intensity may reach 1 lx." For the 0.7 lux claim, Bunning and Moser reference a 268 page book, (6) "Sauberer, F., and O. Hrtel, Pflanze und Strahlung (Leipzig: Akad. Verl. Ges., 1959), p.12."

Other sources give a maximum value for moonlight in the 0.2 to 0.267 lux range, e.g.. The value seems to be of most interest in biology, for the study of light induced behaviors in plants and animals. A Google Scholar search on "moonlight lux" gives many such biology papers a wide range of moonlight values (one as high as 2.2 lux ). It there an authoritative source for this number in the astronomical literature? Surely we must have better instrumentation and data than was available in 1959. Not surprisingly, a regular Google search on "moonlight intensity" gives our moonlight article as the top pick. Should we leave this possible dubious claim in the three articles?--agr (talk) 02:29, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The distance to the Moon varies by 12%, which I'd think would produce a 25% variation in intensity. Crawford (1997) lists 0.29 lux. Based on [//books.google.com/books?id=FGHhZf-k8SkC&pg=PA529 this source], the visual magnitude mv is related to the brightness in lux B(lux) by:
 * $$\begin{smallmatrix}B(lux)\ =\ 10^{-0.4(m_v\ +\ 14)}\end{smallmatrix}$$
 * According to Wikipedia, at full moon the peak magnitude is &minus;12.74, so the lux would be 0.31. Budding (1993) lists 0.24 lux for that magnitude, but perhaps that includes an averaged adjustment for atmospheric extinction? Shevchenko (1980) lists 0.449 lux after compensating for the opposition effect. RJH (talk)

Universe Today AfD
Universe Today ("a space and astronomy news site") has been nominated for deletion. I have no view on that, but editors with relevant knowledge might like to comment. Johnuniq (talk) 00:22, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Administrators' noticeboard
Feedback would be appreciated here. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 14:53, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

RFC on identifiers
There is an RFC on the addition of identifier links to citations by bots. Please comment. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 15:52, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

HD 139691
I have rescued from the speedy-deletion pile this article, which was started in February and left in an untidy and incomplete state. I have found a reference which shows it is not a hoax, and it has been reduced to a stub, which could probably be expanded by someone better-qualified. The original author gave it a long list of categories; it would be useful if someone could check whether they all really apply. JohnCD (talk) 18:12, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Certainly not a hoax, though obviously created as a copy-paste from another star article and not fully fixed. I've expanded it to a three-paragraph stub with four references and an infobox, and fixed the categories, but I didn't want to do any more because I'm not sure it's that notable. There are a few papers on it yes, but only because there aren't that many nearby 6-member star systems known. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 19:16, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. It has turned blue a redlink from Star system (via ADS 9731 which I created as a redirect). JohnCD (talk) 19:22, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Anyone have any opinions on the notability? It would be nice to have an uninvolved editor remove the orange-level template. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 00:38, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't see how you can have an authoritative article on most astronomical objects without relying on primary sources. In that regard, the WP:GNG seems unnecessarily restrictive. If we follow that guideline, then most astronomy object articles should be purged. I tend to ignore it except in cases that an article goes to WP:AfD. Regards, RJH (talk) 17:38, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

discussion on comet names
Please see Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style, regarding the usage of hyphens or dashes in comet names. --Enric Naval (talk) 16:56, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

PTF 11kly
I just threw up an article on the newly discovered supernova PTF 11kly which I believe to be noteworthy, and something that will attract attention in the next few days (and likely for a long time after). I'm not very much up with astronomy though, so it's just a stub, and I thought I'd let others know! Mostlyharmless (talk) 08:30, 26 August 2011 (UTC)


 * There were at least two major factual inaccuracies in the stub (21 ly vs 21 million ly, and dark matter vs dark energy). I've attempted to correct these, but it needs a thorough editing pass by someone familiar with the subject (ideally after the observations and resulting papers and press releases die down). --Christopher Thomas (talk) 08:47, 26 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks (and thanks for your revisions!). Mine was very much a drive-by attempt, creating a place-holder stub - I'm reluctant to write longer articles about subjects I'm completely unfamiliar with. Mostlyharmless (talk) 09:01, 26 August 2011 (UTC)


 * A couple of other editors are also looking at it, so it should improve further from here. It isn't an earth-shattering event, but it's still important (giving a better model of Type Ia supernova events, improving standard candles used for other observations). --Christopher Thomas (talk) 09:22, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

PSR J1719-1438
PSR J1719-1438 is in the news because it has a planet said to be made of diamond. The article needs an infobox, which is beyond my ability. Anyone? Speciate (talk) 02:06, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Done, though most of that article is duplication of content at PSR J1719-1438b (unsurprisingly, as there's only been one paper on the pulsar + white dwarf system). Also, I take great issue with describing the companion as a planet - it is in fact a compact carbon-oxygen white dwarf, which is a type of star. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 22:34, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Is Eris a detached object?
Question at talk page. I reverted the POV that Eris is a DO pending discussion here. — kwami (talk) 07:19, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Widespread confusion between epoch and equinox
I'm not sure if this is the proper location to bring this up, but there seems to be widespread confusion in Astronomy article between the term "equinox" and the term "epoch" when related to coordinates of astronomical objects. The distinction is relatively simple. Equinox refers to the precession of the coordinate system used. Epoch refers to the timing of an event such as an observation. The coordinate system we currently use J2000, uses the equinox as defined at epoch J2000 (= 2000 Jan 1, 12h TT).

The distinction is important, for example in the Hipparcos catalog. In it the coordinate system is equinox J2000 but the epoch of the coordinates is J1991.25. In any other catalog that includes proper motion the epoch is important. It's also important to variable stars, pulsars, neutrino detections from supernovae, etc. I've seen a lot of people wrongly precess coordinates when given a set with an observation epoch attached.

Given the widespread misuse, I know it's not an easy fix.SETIGuy (talk) 03:38, 26 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree these are frequently misused, including by professional astronomers. We had a recent discussion about this on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Astronomical objects. Hipparcos is a bit more complicated, because whilst the mean epoch of the observations was indeed 1991.25, all the positions were catalogued by extrapolating the proper motions to 2000.0 epoch. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 10:57, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's widespread confusion, so much as widespread lack of awareness. As a professional astronomer, I've only seen the term 'epoch' used and never saw 'equinox' when dealing with catalogs and maps...and I was taught old-school observational astronomy! It's been my experience that professional astronomers generally don't get much practical observational experience, and are more focused on computational analysis of data gathered by remote telescopes or telescopes with their own operator. So, it's not confusion, it's lack of awareness...and that's not something that is going to change, even by fixing wikipedia (though that isn't to say it shouldn't be done!).Astrocog (talk) 14:29, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Suffice to say I've had to explain this to several dozen professional observational astronomers, most of whom didn't know what the difference was. Whether that's confusion or lack of awareness is rather moot; the fact is many of them (us) don't understand the terms either correctly or at all. You're correct that most of us observers spend far more time on analysis and writing up than we do observing, but personally I don't think that's sufficient excuse for anyone to not know what they're doing when they go observing. The terms are explained in just about every introductory textbook! <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 13:28, 28 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Perhaps we need to start a WikiProject to-do list for astronomy articles? That way we can track these general concerns over time. Regards, RJH (talk) 22:13, 30 August 2011 (UTC)


 * What exactly is there to be done about this, other than to watch out for it? There's no way anyone could audit their use in every single astronomy article. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 22:39, 30 August 2011 (UTC)


 * The way to fix it among astronomers is for every Astronomy department to have an annoyed astrometrist willing to disrupt colloquium every time a speaker uses epoch incorrectly.


 * One possibility for wikipedia is to start with the templates, which usually have an erroneous epoch field. That could be replaced with equinox and an additional epoch field when justified (i.e. star with proper motion.) Then again, maybe that's just a way to annoy everyone who edits astronomy articles.


 * BTW, my understanding with the Hipparcos catalog is that the coordinates are interpolated to epoch J1991.25 and precessed to equinox J2000, and that proper motion and parallax corrections are applied to the coordinates based upon the the difference between the prediction epoch and J1991.15. I suppose it's possible I'm wrong.SETIGuy (talk) 23:40, 30 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Hmm, you're right, the original catalogue notes state 'right ascension and declination are expressed in degrees for epoch J1991.25 (JD2448349.0625 (TT)) in the ICRS (International Celestial Reference System, consistent with J2000) reference system.' There's a similar statement in the later van Leeuwen catalogue. My mistake, Vizier was confusing me with its automatic propagation to Equinox=J2000.0 Epoch=J2000.000.
 * The template should certainly have both an epoch and equinox field; I thought it already did so? <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 00:49, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Starbox observe does indeed already have both epoch and equinox fields. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 22:09, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Galaxy box only seems to have epoch and displays the epoch as "Observation data (J2000 epoch)". I doubt that M31 has significant proper motion or variability, so who cares what epoch the data is for?  The equinox of the coordinates is probably of interest, though.  I would guess that other non-stellar templates have the same problem.SETIGuy (talk) 22:22, 4 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Gah, that is indeed a problem, well spotted. I just checked - proper motion has been measured for a handful of other galaxies, but very few. More importantly, several types of active galaxies do vary strongly over time, so epoch should be retained. But quoting any coordinates without an accompanying equinox is nonsensical. Unfortunately templates are one area where I don't know what I'm doing, so I'm not sure how to go about fixing that. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 22:32, 4 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, we could add a to-do item to watch out for it. New members can then see the information five years down the road. (I doubt that most people bother to read the archived discussions.) Regards, RJH (talk) 14:35, 31 August 2011 (UTC)


 * That is indubitably so. Feel free to start one. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 22:05, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Yup. It's located at the top of this page. Regards, RJH (talk) 19:42, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

It strikes me that "equinox" involves the reader selecting from many context sensitive meanings, and the correct meaning actually involves a great deal of shorthand. Apparently, for the meaning being discussed here, "equinox" must take one of a few values generally recognized by the astronomical community, one of which is J2000, and it involves many things other than the direction of the equinox and the time, such as whether the direction of the celestial north pole neglects nutation. Perhaps a term like "standard coordinate frame" would be more appropriate for a general readership. Jc3s5h (talk) 20:14, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
 * We do have a more context-specific Equinox (celestial coordinates) article. Regards, RJH (talk) 20:19, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

31 Euphrosyne
Mass was off by an order of magnitude according to the link provided in the article. Apparently a corrected error, but both versions lie outside the norm.

A Jan. 2009 archive of the page jibes with our old figures. It has:


 * 6.23E+18 kg ± 1.17E+18 kg and 0.71 ± 0.16 g/cm^3 (Baer et al. 2008)

In today's version, the order of magnitude has been iterated by one, a number approximated by their 2010 calculations:


 * 1.87E+19 ± 1.03E+19; 2.13 ± 1.21 (Kochetova 2004)
 * 6.23E+19 ± 1.17E+19; 7.09 ± 1.64 (Baer et al. 2008)
 * 5.81E+19 ± 1.97E+19; 6.61 ± 2.41 (Baer et al. 2011)

The old density was amazingly low (even for a rubble pile), and the corrected density incredibly high (almost solid iron). The greater error bar on the 2011 data though makes it look more reasonable; I suspect (31) may lie near the lower end of the measurement and yet be a solid body. Anyway, just a heads up. — kwami (talk) 05:58, 3 September 2011 (UTC)