Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Austria/Archive 2

Task Forces
Maybe we should get a set of task forces for this Wikiproject. Anyone know which ones we need? Kingjeff 19:13, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Bilateral relations discussion
I would like to invite you all to participate in a discussion at this thread regarding bilateral relations between two countries. All articles related to foreign relations between countries are now under the scope of WikiProject Foreign relations, a newly created project. We hope that the discussion will result in a more clean and organized way of explaining such relationships. Thank you.  Ed  ¿Cómo estás? 18:49, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Austrian cities, towns, ...
Should the template (infobox) Template:Infobox Town AT be used for Austrian towns? Some articles use it (eg. Linz) and some use a table with some other information (eg. Wels). In German Wikipedia a template is used which looks more like the table version. --Eli84 19:28, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Just FYI: In the german-language wikipedia we are currently discussing a switch from the current table-system to a new template . Some articles already use it but most still use the old wiki-syntax-tables. --Wirthi


 * I made a new version of the municipalities infobox template, that is compatible with the template from German wikipedia and with the current version. See Template talk:Infobox Town AT. Also, I'd like to propose to (re?)start a subproject Cities here, like the one for Germany: WikiProject Germany/Cities. There's still many articles for Austrian municipalities missing. Markussep Talk 20:37, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Members
What about introducing a list of members for this project? Look at WikiProject The Beatles for some tips. andreasegde 06:26, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Photos
Over the course of the next several days, I will be uploading several hundred photos from around Austria. Vienna is currently uploaded and Graz is uploading as I type this. To follow will be Obertraun-Dachstein, Hallstatt, Zell am See, Salzburg, Innsbruck, and various points in transit between. The photos will be available in this gallery. I am also attempting to properly categorise them. Prost! -- Bossi  ( talk • gallery • contrib ) 01:42, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Wow, wonderful ... but maybe you can unriddle to me why so many people think that "Prost" is an appropiate greeting when talking to Austrians? As it is normally only used in Austria when you drink together and raise your glass(es) ;-) ... -- Rfortner 01:48, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Who says I don't have a glass? Where's yours? :) I'm going to aim for adding a city a day, so I'll hopefully wrap up the Austrian photos by the end of the week. -- Bossi  ( talk • gallery • contrib ) 03:28, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Wikimedia put in a warning system which, to put it simply, shut down my uploading completely by blocking Commonist (a good mass-uploading tool). I'll get back to it as soon as the issue is resolved.  Cheers! -- Bossi  ( talk • gallery • contrib ) 04:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Photo of Russian embassy required
I have reformatted Diplomatic missions of Russia and have included a column which is to be populated of the various Russian diplomatic missions, and the article needs a photo of the Russian Embassy which is located at Reisnerstrasse 45-47, 1030 Wien. Also needed are photos of the Russian Permanent Mission to the International Organisations at A-1220 Wien, Erzherzog Karl-Strasse 182, and the Russian Consulate-General in Salzburg, at Burgelsteinstrasse 2, 5020 Salzburg. Can anyone in Austria assist with this? Cheers --Russavia 04:14, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Hitler was definitly not a "notable" Austrian
I don't understand why one contributer (and his sock-puppet) trie(s) to have Adolf Hitler in the list of "notable Austrians" on this page? Provocation?


 * (1) First of all he was not "notable" (maybe only a Nazi would call Hitler "notable"), so there is NO place for him in this list of "notable" Austrians. Personally I think that Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart was the most notable Austrian, but thats not the question here. Maybe the editor doesn't know the meaning of the word "notable".


 * (2) And he was only Austrian-born, but Hitler himself denied the concept of an independent Austria and defined himself as German, since the first World-War. Thats why he officially returned his Austrian citizienship in 1925 (see the text of of his official letter here), and in 1932 he became German (and in 1933 Chancellor of Germany).


 * (3) In Austria he was nothing more than a jobless and homeless postcard-painter, so he was not "famous" as an Austrian. It was his political career as a German in the German "Reich" that made him - unfortunately - "famous". But what was his attitude towards Autstria? He occupied and dissolved it in 1938, so he was an opponent of the Austrian state. So to call him a famous Austrian is a provocation for every Austrian who believes in an independent state of Austria! -- Rfortner 10:35, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * "Austria is my homeland", Adolf Hitler said 1938 in Vienna. But "notable" is rather POV, thats correct, "famous" is better. --Quadruplet 11:01, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I brought a lot more of arguments, and also his official letter with which he ended his Austrian citizenship in 1925. And you have nothing more than this quotation? For Hitler, Austria was nothing more than a part (province) of a Great-Germany ("Großdeutschland") when he said this sentence. So once again: Discuss here before starting your obvious POV-pushing and editing the headers of sections! Keep your manners! -- Rfortner 11:34, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * You did not react to my arguments, but to avoid an edit-war with you I made the sections more clear and your "famous" Adolf Hitler is now in his right place. I am still not sure about your attitude, because the link that you posted below looks like Neonazi-stuff!
 * Anyway: Don't dare to touch the notable Austrians, this is a "Project"-page and therefore it is absolutely appropiate to have a list of "notable" Austrians. -- Rfortner 17:58, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * A.H. not only ended his citizenship but did so for a lot more people after 1938 (who seemed to feel pretty comfortable being Austrian citizens). For many of them he not only ended their citizenship, as we all know. May be you should take the trouble to list at least the most famous of these (Semi?)-Austrians too in this rather obscure list. Zyance Zyance 07:32, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Hitler was definitly a "famous" Austrian
Sorry, but "notable" is always POV, not only with regard to Hitler... I have changed that. (By the way: Who is Rainhard Fenrich??) Sure, I don't like Hitler, but he was an Austrian - Rfortner, you can only WISH to deny this, because you are an Austrian too. Take a look: http://www.thirdreichruins.com/austria.htm --Quadruplet 12:02, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
 * SCNR: People who don't know Rainhard Fendrich should not argue about famous Austrians. --Wirthi 09:39, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
 * He may be famous in Austria, but not outside of Austria.--Quadruplet 09:59, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Ludwig Wittgenstein FA review
Ludwig Wittgenstein has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. One Night In Hackney 303  16:18, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

No nationalistic POV-Pushing, please!
Rfortner, your edits are rather nationalistic and inaccurate.

1. Incorrect your citation: Hitler “proudly” integrated Austria into Greater Germany? Maybe, he was proud on March 15th, standing above the enthusiastic crowds of Vienna, but he don’t said so. It’s no citation, it’s your fantasy. So I don’t think that you know the sources better than I.

2. You look at Austria with the eyes of Hitler only to make him non-Austrian. That is ridiculous. If you look at Austria with the eyes of Ludwig Wittgenstein or Elfriede Jelinek or Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart they all were non-Austrians too. If you look at Jews with the eyes of Arthur Trebitsch he was not Jewish. If you look at homosexuals with the eyes of Larry Craig, he is not gay. And so on.

3. Hitler a “Semi-Austrian”? Silly kind of new-word-racism… Hitler was whole person, I think. If you look at your glorious list, most of your fellow countrymen were “semi-Austrians”: Mozart (proud to be a “German”), Freud (Jewish, lost Austrian citizenship), Arnold Schwarzenegger (US-Governor), Ludwig Wittgenstein (a British Jew).

4. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, no pantheon. Once again: “Notable” Austrians is subjective (for example: Rainhard Fendrich is not notable in my eyes); “famous” or “known” is neutral.

5. Don’t delete information: The website http://www.thirdreichruins.com/austria.htm gives you not a flattering picture of Austria, but that’s not the point. Is this or this  "Neo-Nazism"? It is anti-Nazism. So don’t try to dress up the Austrian history, please!

6. Once again: Don’t dare to delete the link to the concentration camp of Mauthausen-Gusen another time! I think in the history of Austria Mauthausen-Gusen is a central point – like Hitler himself. You are insulting the victims, if you deny that.

7. And, please: Don’t offend ME! I’m not an ignorant, no sock puppet, no Neo-Nazi. (I’m Jewish – how can I be a Nazi?) It may be difficult to be an Austrian in our days, because all the world see you in the light of Hitler and Kurt Waldheim. But lying about your history is not a good way to stand up to the truth.--Quadruplet 09:57, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


 * First of all: Your are a POV-pusher, because it seems to be your personal mission to put Adolf Hitler on the most prominent place in this section, while there are many other well-known, famous and "notable" Austrians. This is so obvious and one can see that you don't want to present the facts in a "correct" but in a POV way! You continously show your Anti-Austrian attitude (which has nothing to do with a "correct" presentation of facts).
 * Second: Your don't know the sources and obviously you don't speak German. So stop stupid blames, that I dont quote correctly!!! On the 15th March 1938 Hitler said: "Ich kann somit in dieser Stunde dem deutschen Volke die größte Vollzugsmeldung meines Lebens abstatten: ....". How more can someone demonstrate his proudness than whit the phrase "die größte Vollzugsmeldung meines Lebens". If you would know the source, you would see, that Hitler didn't use the word "Austria" (Österreich) on this day, but he used the word "Ostmark", which was the official Nazi-wording to push back the idea of an independent Austria. The full source of his speech can be found here. (This is a reliable source, it is the "Dokumentationsarchiv des österreichischen Widerstandes").
 * Third: I dont say that Hitler was not Austrian at the beginning of his life. But he soon emigrated to Germany and denied the concept of Austria. And he ended his Austrian citizenship officialy (on the 7th April 1925), none of the other persons you mentioned did so! You see: YOU ARE UNFAIR AND A POV-PUSHER!
 * Fourth: This is a project-page! And if some editors before me used the word "notable" for this section, don't change/vandalise this to support your own POV-pushing. It is a pitty for you not to know Reinhard Fendrich, but it shows even more that you don't have any clue about Austria. So stop your personal crusade against Austria and accept that we mention Hitler, but not on the same level as really notable persons. And that it has to mentioned, that he officially ended his Austrian citizenship in 1925. You neglect this fact, one more indicator that YOU ARE a POV-pusher! I don't know what Austria once did to you or to your family, but stop these senseless edits which will be reverted till you accept an appropiate solution for this delicate topic.
 * Finally: Your last argument is your whish or personal view (that the whole world sees Austria ONLY in connection with Hitler and Waldheim), and you currently try to POV-push this view. But it is not true. And with the same enthusiams, with which I (as a Socialdemocrat and Antifaschist) fight IN Austria for a "fair" historical view and debate (which became much more easy after 1986, a year which changed much in Austria!), I will fight here against your personal agenda to reduce Austria on these two names! -- Rfortner 11:18, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * PS: The deletion of the Mauthausen-link happened accidentally, when I widely extended the history section. As you can see I never deleted it again, so don't blame me for something which was obviously a mistake in a very large edit.


 * First: O, Kurt Waldheim and Hitler now are the LAST names on your list? What a surprise! (And what a POV!) But they may stay there. Only because they are the MOST famous of all Austrians, it would be more appropriate to give them the first places. But only because that.
 * Second: You don't know your own sources. Hitler did not use the word “proudly”. I think, I understand the meaning of „die größte Vollzugsmeldung meines Lebens abstatten“, but your citation - "proudly" - was incorrect. Your citation was interpretation, was fantasy. And, besides: He used the word “Austria” on this day several times. Another mistake. Can you read?
 * Third: Sorry, Hitler was not only “Austrian at the beginning of his life”. Most of his lifetime he hold the Austrian citizenship. He studied his ideology and his antisemitism in Austria. I think, not by accident. No Austria – no Hitler.
 * Fourth: Okay, this is a project-page, but that’s not the point. This is an encyclopaedia with rules. NPOV, please!
 * Finally: There are only a few world-famous Austrians, but Hitler and Waldheim everybody knows. This is not my personal view (let alone my wish).
 * PS: The deletion of the Mauthausen-link happened accidentally? Can I trust you?--Quadruplet 14:11, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


 * It is your personal view (and maybe that of superficial US-american medias) that Hitler and Waldheim where the most famous Austrians. Thats not correct (where are the sources?), Austria already had a developed culture and history long before America was even discovered. So it would be inappropiate to reduce more than 1000 years of Austrian history to these two names. Thats what superficial medias (like the yellow press) doe, but Wikipedia should be more correct.
 * So maybe you missunderstood my edits: I dont say that these names should not be mentioned at all, but I strongly plea to keep an appropiate relation about their part in Austrian history (irrespective what lurid US-medias report, which made it even harder to discuss the case of Waldheim in Austria in an appropiate way - because their lurid articles in 1986 about Austria prevented a serious discussion at the beginning of this scandal, as they reported about Austria in a very superficial way, which degraded their entire critics - years later the discussion in Austrian medias where much more factual and in-depth).
 * I know my sources. Proudly is absolutely appropiate in this case, when someone tells that he can "report the biggest success of his life" (thats how one can translate Hitlers words in English). Your user page doesn't show to me, if you speak German, otherwise we could discuss it more detailed.
 * About Hitler using the word "Austria" during his speech on the 15th March 1938: Once again I don't know if you speak German, but he uses the phrase "sogenannten Selbständigkeit des Landes Österreich". So he uses the word Austria, but in a negative way, denying the indipency of Austria in this context by using the adjective "sogenannte". But he widely uses the word "Ostmark" (in a positive way), which was established by the Nazis instead of the term Austria.
 * Hitler left Austrian in 1913 and emmigrated to Germany, so most of his life he was in Germany an allready in the first WorldWar he fought in a German (Bavarian) unit. In Austria, especially in Vienna, he was nothing more than a homeless and jobless postcard-painter. It where the Germans, who elected him (his party) and made him Chancelor in January 1933. So don't blame Austria for everything related to Hitler. I know that there are theories, that he learned some kind of Antisemitism in Vienna, but the same ideas where also known in Munich or Berlin. So it is quite polemic to imply, that Austria was responsible for all of his thoughts - because most of the other first Nazi-leaders (Goering, Goebbels, Roehm, ...) where Germans and had the same ideas. Where did they learn them? Have they all been to Vienna? ... Honestly: I think that Hitler would have been replaceable, if HE wouldnt have made those speeches, someone else (Goering, Goebbels, etc.) would have done it. It is superficial to reduce the entire NS-system only to the person of Hitler. When you study the sources you find that the Nazi-System was much more complex than this, and the roots for their "success" where very complex, so Germany (its people) was "ready" and "prepared" for such a political change.
 * I think, that other Austrians are also very well-known so it is not necessary to give Hitler or Waldheim a special place (by the way: I dont think that Waldheim is soooo well-known in the entire world). People like Freud, Mozart, Schubert or Porsche are also well-known. So every "ranking" or special treatment would be - in fact - POV!
 * About Mauthausen: Hey, I have already been there, not only to take a tour, but several times at the beginning of May when the liberation day is celebrated. Maybe I neglected it because I added the (much) more comprehensive article Austria at the Time of National Socialism, and Mauthausen is part of this article. -- Rfortner 17:58, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Controversial move + edits
Hi, check this I am not sure if it is NPOV move.  ≈Tulkolahten≈ ≈talk≈ 22:49, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * As written in the first paragraph, "Until 1866 ... Germany and Austria were part ..." => since then, both are different countries. To state that they are only separate since 1945 is wrong. Of course, between 1938 and 1945 was part of the German Reich, but that has nothing to do that Austria hat been a souvereign state for much longer (e.g. the current constitution is from 1920). --Wirthi (talk) 22:16, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The constitution that was drafted in November 1918 declared that Deutschösterreich wants to join Weimar Germany, and "plebiscites in the provinces of Tyrol and Salzburg yielded majorities of 98 and 99% in favor of a unification with Germany". The victors of World War I prevented this, Austria was not allowed to join/merge, and had to drop the Deutsch/German from its name. Thus, the separation was enforced against the wishes of the population. -- Matthead Discuß   15:09, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Inactiveness
Does anyone know if this project is really inactive? Cause I still use it and want to be active on it. Thanks--DerRichter (talk) 17:13, 20 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm active. I just created articles for all municipalities in Austria that didn't already have one, and now I'm launching the new infobox for municipalities, see WikiProject Austria/Cities. Markussep Talk 17:18, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Category:Austrian historical regions
I've started Category:Austrian historical regions - or is there a similar one I've missed? -- Matthead DisOuß   09:40, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Naming controversy
See Duchy of Auschwitz -- Matthead DisOuß   09:45, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Brünn death march
Shortly after Brünn death march was created, one user started editwarring. -- Matthead DisOuß   09:45, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Template Sudetenland created
Supposed to be added to every relevant article, persons, cities, events. yields

Please comment, as it needs to be improved. -- Matthead DisOuß   09:45, 27 December 2007 (UTC)