Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 59

"Marque" and WP:PEACOCK
As some may have noticed I boldly moved numerous "marque" articles, replacing that word with "car brand". I know what I was doing, thought the move will fulfill all three WP:BOLDMOVE points, but no. Huge backslash ensues, editors telling me to "be careful"... let me explain.

The word marque always strikes me as weird and too-fancy. As a non-native English speaker I also thought many other non-native would not be familiar to the word - this falls in the WP:COMMONNAME guideline. "Car brand" is no less precise or unambiguous than "Marque" so it's also not quite a downgrade. What triggers me to remember of this issue is this edit by @Mr.choppers which has not met any objection, replacing "marque" to "brand" due to "a bit of a WP:PEACOCK issue".

The suspicion of the word being too fancy is apparent in dictionaries. These are the definition of "marque" by several dictionaries:
 * Cambridge (Business English): "the name for a range of cars, which is sometimes different from the name of the company that produces them""
 * Example: If you are not so worried about having a brand new car but want a fancy marque, you can try Premium Cars.
 * Oxford Learners Dictionaries (American): "a well-known make of a product, especially a car, that is expensive and fashionable"
 * Wikitionary: "A brand or make of a manufactured product, especially of a motor car (in contradistinction to a model)."
 * Example (British media quote): The group wants Rover as its luxury marque and MG as the performance car.
 * Merriam-Webster: "a brand or make of a product (such as a sports car)"
 * Example: The German luxury marque has just announced the opening of its first charging hub in the U.S.
 * Collins (American English): "a product model or type, as of a luxury or racing car"
 * Example: The group has said that it wants to focus on top luxury marques.
 * Longman (British English): "the well-known name of a type of car or other product, especially an expensive one"
 * Example: the prestigious Ferrari marque
 * Dictionary.com: ''"a product model or type, as of a luxury or racing car."
 * Example: More than just a symbol, she is the embodiment of our brand, and a constant source of inspiration and pride for the marque and its clients.

Clearly a sentence that sounds like "Dacia is a budget marque of Renault..." wouldn't sound right based on these definitions, let alone in an encyclopedia.

To sum it up, "car brand" is concise enough while being neutral and not risking using a WP:PEACOCK term (which may also apply to the word "luxury", but that's for another time).

Pinging @DeFacto @Infinty 0 @Urbanoc to this discussion. Andra Febrian (talk) 16:07, 30 November 2023 (UTC)


 * In British English "marque" is the correct and common word used for car makes of all levels. It is not a 'peacock' term - the first paragraph of the Dacia article says: "In 2021, the Dacia marque sold...". And COMMONNAME applies to the main title ('Rover' or 'Mini', for example), not to the disambiguator.
 * You also seem to have misunderstood several of the dictionary entries you quote.
 * In the Cambridge entry "fancy" is an adjective applied to "marque" in an example, it is not part of the definition. The example would be just as valid if it said "If you are not so worried about having a premium brand car you could buy a brand new one with a budget marque".
 * Similarly with the Wikitionary entry, it's a usage example, "The group wants Dacia as its budget marque and Alpine as the performance car" works too.
 * The same with the Merriam-Webster entry - it could have equally said: "The Romanian budget marque has just announced the opening of its first charging hub in the U.S."
 * In American English it might have a different meaning.
 * "Marque" is more concise than "car brand", so is a better fit with WP:TITLEDAB, in British English at least. -- DeFacto (talk). 16:51, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The Cambridge, Wikitionary and Merriam-Webster entries show the typical usage for this word, and it's really not a coincidence when three of them use the word luxury and fancy in it. That's my point.
 * Notice how only Wikipedia heavily uses the word "marque" in any applications (including budget brands) as explained by Mr.choppers. Andra Febrian (talk) 07:43, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Nah, in Britain (or at least all the old British mags that I used to read), marque really just meant brand - high class and low class and everything in between. Eg https://austinmotorvehicleclubqld.org/blog/2019/4/6/1969-austin-models-uk-and-australia for Austin Mini and land crabs. It's quite literally the maker's "mark", derived from a time when French cars were world leaders.  Stepho  talk 08:29, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * According to the Google Definition, a marque is "a make of car, as distinct from a specific model", a French back-formation of marquer ‘to brand’.
 * To me, this is less of a PEACOCK issue and more an issue of MOS:JARGON. To preface my points below, I concur with DeFacto to the extent that marque is both correct and non-specific as to a trim level or brand identity in American English.
 * As set for in WP:TITLEDAB: "When deciding on which disambiguation method(s) to use, all article titling criteria are weighed in", under which marque fails both Naturalness and Recognizability.
 * Marque is not natural. To a reader searching for vehicles carrying the name of an ambiguous manufacturer, (e.g., Jaguar) the most natural additional descriptor would be "car". However, "car" fail under the precision and/or consistency prongs because it is more commonly associated with an individual model (and arguably excludes "truck") and not the brand as a whole. While marque is correct and concise, it's less natural than "automobiles" or "vehicles".
 * Marque is not recognizable. As the word's French origin suggests, and its pronunciation reinforces, it is most intuitively associated with a brand. To wit: the French term Marque de commerce, known as a Trademark in English speaking countries. As mentioned, marque is jargon as it's likely only recognized by the readers most familiar with various marques/brands. Because the definition is simply a combination of two things with which most readers would be familiar (cars and brands), it risks being imprecise to a non-expert reader who incorrectly interprets it to be a brand of anything, and  is nonsense to somebody that has never seen the term. The proposed alternative "car brand" is more recognizable, but fails under the concision and/or precision prongs. Marque is less recognizable than "automobiles" or "vehicles".
 * For these reasons I think the disambiguating term "automobiles" is more appropriate. Automobiles is recognizable to casual readers, while remaining a concise single word. Additionally, it is precise because the plural form indicates it is a group of vehicles (and not one in particular), which implies it is a brand. Finally, it is consistent with what is already used for Scion (automobile), Pontiac (automobile), GMC (automobile), and others. IPBilly (talk) 20:03, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * "Automobiles" may be ok for articles written in American English, but it isn't in common usage in British English, so isn't suitable for articles written in British English where 'marque' is in common usage in this context. -- DeFacto (talk). 20:22, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Even in British English, marque may have a common usage, but mostly for premium/luxury brands. This is why I'm suggesting using "car brand", not "automobile", because the former is widely used in both American English and British English and more understandable for non-native English speakers and non-experts. I do not doubt the correctness of the word "marque", but I'm more concerned of its use cases and reader's understanding. Andra Febrian (talk) 07:33, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * No, as has been said elsewhere by me, and others, "marque" is used across the spectrum for car brands in British English. -- DeFacto (talk). 08:48, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * "Marque" is commonly used in British English, be it in reference to Lada or Rolls-Royce. In British English "brand" is more ambiguous, as it could also refer to the model name (ie. with the Austin Allegro the term "marque" unambiguously refers to the "Austin" part of the name, whereas the word "brand" could be referring to the "Austin" brand, the "Allegro" brand, or the "Austin Allegro" brand). HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 10:47, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Brands can span a range of models like ST/RS (Ford), AMG (Mercedes), Aircross (Citroen), Quadrafolgio (Alfa Romeo), E-tech (Renault), or Quattro (Audi) spring to mind. These are neither marques or models.
 * The perfect examples are DS, a marque spun off from the DS line of Citroens, which were inspired by the original DS model. Really, they are all brands.
 * Make and marque are interchangeable IMO. However make might be seen to mean manufacturer, which if a manufacturer sold it's namesake marque could be two different Wikipedia articles.
 * Stick with marque. Pretentious is in the eye of the observer only. Rally Wonk (talk) 21:53, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
 * This has come up a few times in the past. Both "brand" and "marque" are correct terms. Neither is jargon, neither is better or worse than the other. They just have different popularity depending on your country. We should not change marque to brand or vice-versa except to be consistent within an article. It's just like windshield vs windscreen, taillight vs taillamp. Let it go - it's a no-win to force your own preferences on the rest of the world.  Stepho  talk 22:20, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't see "marque" as a "peacock" term at all. It's an industry-specific term, yes, but not unrecognizable jargon. It may be more common in British English, but I have seen it in American writing. --Sable232 (talk) 23:40, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't doubt the correctness of the word "marque". It's also not an issue of English variation, in which the WP:RETAIN policy took place. Okay, say peacock is not an issue. But recognizability might be an issue. Non-native readers and non-expert readers might took a bit of time to understand what is a "marque", but "car brand" is self-explanatory and understandable even by children. My thinking is that we should pick a word that is understandable by 99% of readers instead of, say, 75% even if its slightly longer. Andra Febrian (talk) 07:38, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Where the meaning of "marque" would be natural, obvious and clear to most people who were interested in cars, "car brand" would take a bit of processing, and would possibly stick in the craw of many, and be incomputable to those who associate "brand" with just designer brands. -- DeFacto (talk). 09:06, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

I find it very pompous sounding, although I don't live in the UK. In Swedish or German or many other languages, märke or merk is the normal term, but at least in America it's something pretentious that you'd see in Robb Report or hear from a real estate agent. I'd say use brand for American entries, marque for British entries, and let the rest fall where they may. If I said that Dacia was a brand of car in the UK, would anyone think it strange sounding? Here is a blurb from Dacia UK's page about who they are:

DACIA, A BRAND REBORN Dacia was founded in Romania in 1966, with a clear objective: to provide modern, reliable and affordable cars to all Romanians. Its name was taken from Dacia, the former name given by the Romans to the region now known as Romania. But it was in 1999, when Renault acquired Dacia, that the brand began a strategic shift, without straying far from its roots. Logan marked its first success.

Sounds like brand is a natural and commonly used word on both sides of the Atlantic.  Mr.choppers &#124;  ✎  00:37, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The example would be just as valid if it said "If you are not so worried about having a premium brand car you could buy a brand new one with a budget marque". From my location, ye olde Google search for "budget marque" (in quotation marks) returns 100% French-language results, not relating to cars, "budget brand" millions but again not generally car related. "Budget marque" car has 4,870 results and "Budget brand" car 155,000. "Luxury marque" has 190,000 results, in large parts thanks to crossword puzzle clues with ACURA and LEXUS as the answers. "budget car marque" has 7 results, whereas "budget car brand" has 118,000 results. My east-coast US version of Google clearly shows that "marque" has aspirational connotations, but I am curious to see the results others get.  Mr.choppers &#124;   ✎  01:24, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * "Marque" seems reasonable for articles on British cars, and car articles written in British English, but the word has near-zero currency in American English (the US term is "make", as in "make and model: Mazda Miata"). I don't know about Canadian, Australian, etc. That said, The Cambridge, Wikitionary and Merriam-Webster entries show the typical usage for this word, and it's really not a coincidence when three of them use the word luxury and fancy in it seems like a valid point, and might bear additional investigation. If there is any non-neutral implication given by this word, it should probably be avoided. I really don't know where "car brand" came from, though. That doesn't seem to be a common term in either AmEng or BrEng.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  10:45, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The alternative of "marque" is "brand" - which is not specific enough for most cases. Thus, "car brand". "Automotive brand" is a mouthful, while "automobile" has an American English tendency (so does "automaker").
 * "Car brand" is used over 14 million times according to Google (in addition to 32 million for plural "car brands"), so it is quite common. Andra Febrian (talk) 14:45, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for mentioning "make", I left that out.  Mr.choppers &#124;   ✎  18:46, 1 December 2023 (UTC)


 * If MOS:COMMONALITY is our goal then maybe "make" would be clearer? I disagree that "marque" is a MOS:PEACOCK term, and I take plenty of issue with the use of MOS:PEACOCK terms in car articles on Wikipedia on a regular basis (ie. declaring anything vaguely upmarket to be "luxury"). In British English I think "make" and "automobile" sound rather more old fashioned than "marque" and "(motor) car" but neither is unfamiliar (need I remind people of the Royal Automobile Club and the Automobile Association?). HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 10:47, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
 * "Make" is typically used as an attribute of a car, for records such as DMV, insurance, police, etc., and included with Year and Model. For example, the Year/Make/Model of that car is 1998/Toyota/Camry. "Brand" is used as a unit of a car company, for marketing and business. For example, Chevrolet is a brand of General Motors.  In that sense, I think it makes sense to keep the existing use of "brand" (as applicable by region) here, and define Make under Brand or Make (disambiguation).  --Vossanova o&lt; 01:25, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
 * In polish we use "marka samochodowa" from "car marque" without any luxurious connotations. But maybe simple "car brand" would suffice.YBSOne (talk) 17:52, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Apple (automobile)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Apple (automobile) that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ASUKITE 17:57, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Aston Martin Rapide at FAC
Hi Wikiproject Automobiles contributors, a note that the Aston Martin Rapide article is currently at the featured article candidates process if you'd like to add some comments. The Aston Martin DB9 article is close to its promotion, so if you'd like to leave your comments go ahead :). 750h+ 11:47, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Great news
Great news WP Automobiles contributors, the Aston Martin DB9 article is officially a featured article, recognising it as one of the best articles produced by Wikipedia :). If you'd like to leave your comments go ahead. 750h+ 13:14, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Congrats! That's a lot of work being recognized.  Mr.choppers &#124;   ✎  18:00, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks Mr.choppers! Also expect one of your pictures to appear on the Main Page on 27 July! 750h+ 09:18, 8 May 2024 (UTC)