Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basketball/Archive 9

Fort Wayne Mad Ants in NBA Team Templates
Now that the Fort Wayne Mad Ants have entered single affiliation with the Pacers and the 11 other teams that are entering "flexible assignment" during this season (meaning that they will be able to assign players to any D-League team that has available space), what should we put in the NBA team templates in the "D-League affiliate" section? For example, on the Hawks' template, it still has the Mad Ants in that category, but since they aren't specifically affiliated with them anymore, what do you think we should put there? I don't think it would be accurate to keep the Mad Ants in each of the remaining 11 teams' templates because they're not affiliated with them anymore. What are your thoughts? -- Miamiheat 631 Talk  16:46, 27 September 2015 (UTC) (Wow, I guess I forgot to sign this post originally.  Fixing that now)

Style question in Head coaching record
I am working through most of the articles on women's collegiate basketball coaches (mainly to remove the deprecated Persondata template). While doing so I encountered two style issues related to the head coaching record I would like to discuss and get some feedback.

1. In most cases, The postseason field contains an entry with a link to the tournament and a word description of the result, e.g. first-round, elite eight. In my recent review I noticed a couple editors doing something a little different. They included a link to the specific tournament if a page exists but showed the record numerically exactly the same way as we show the record in the overall an conference column. For example in Cameron Newbauer the entry is 1-1(OVC),0-1(WNIT). I "fixed" the first one or two I came across but now I'm starting to wonder if it might be a better paradigm.On the positive side it is more consistent with the way the overall and conference columns are handled showing the specific wins and losses. On the negative side some have an attachment to term such sweet 16 and final four. (Although I suppose those terms could be included as well). In addition to the question about the format (numeric versus pure words) I note that some include the conference tournament as postseason although most do not. How do people feel about the inclusion or exclusion of the conference tournament in the postseason column?

2. There are several different ways that editors indicate a tie in the standing column:
 * t4th
 * t-4th
 * T4th
 * T-4th

Is one of these (or something else) preferred?-- S Philbrick (Talk)  14:05, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

Listed height and weight in infoboxes
I always assumed the logical and reasoned way of listing height and weight parameters in the infobox was to use what was listed by the player's current team (or league). That would entail using feet and pounds for those playing in the U.S. (and Australia?), centimetres and kilograms for those playing in nearly the whole world, regardless of the player's nationality. I've had two editors change articles of European based players to the imperial units with little explanation or reasoning for their actions. It would be helpful to define the consensus on the subject so a standard can be applied and disruptive editing undone. --ArmstrongJulian (talk) 20:59, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I've changed players (i.e. Jarvis Varnado, Alexey Shved) back to regular units because I think that just because they play in Europe, the height and weight shouldn't be changed to the metric system just because they're playing in Europe. Especially in Varnado's case, since he is American, I think he should at least stay in the normal units.  But another user came up with a really good compromise on Alexey Shved's page, by putting the height in metrics in the lead paragraph, and the height in regular units in the infobox.  I thought that was a good compromise so I kept it that way because then both units get used, instead of one ruling over the other.  But since players like Shved, Nenad Krstic, Jan Vesely, and Kyrylo Fesenko have been playing in the NBA for the past couple of years, it just seems kind of pointless to change it back to the metric system when there weren't any problems with the way it was in regular units.  But, then again, that's just me.  -- Miamiheat 631  Talk  21:33, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * First of all, Miamiheat631 stop calling them "regular units." They may be "regular" to you, but to pretty much everybody outside of the U.S., metrics are regular.  So just, please, stop.  OK, getting back to the discussion at hand, I thought that my compromise on Shved's page was good enough, because I think that users that are familiar with the metric system can see it in the opening paragraph and users that are familiar with American units can see it in the infobox.  Personally, I think that is a fair enough compromise, so I vote to keep it like that.  Cheers.  KanterMan340 (talk) 22:06, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I actually thought that consensus was to use the players' home units. In other words, American players use feet/inches/pounds and Europeans/Austalians/etc. use meters/kilograms. Rikster2 (talk) 22:35, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Don't really understand the motivation for choosing the units solely on nationality, apart from crass jingoism. If you really want to go by that rule of nationality, then change Pau Gasol's stats to metres and kilos, see how that goes down. The fact is the parameters given by the player's clubs or leagues are: official, recent and verified. There are players from the U.S. who have been playing in Europe (or vice-versa Europeans in the NBA) for a long time and whose stats given in "national" units date to sometimes a decade back. For example, Phil Goss (left the U.S. in 2005) is listed as 6'1 and 185lb by Fox Sports but by all accounts is 188cm and 85kg, not the same stats. If you tell me we can just convert the recent data into imperial units that's a complete waste of time seeing as there's a conversion by default when you input those stats into the infobox. That's discarding the notion that feet and inches are unprecise measurement units and that inputing them as the basic data can lead to differences of at least 3cm in player height. --ArmstrongJulian (talk) 10:46, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * On the contrary, I don't care. I was just saying what I thought the consensus was. Rikster2 (talk) 11:53, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

A few comments:
 * 1) Per WP:NBAHEIGHT, height is general not listed in the lead unless it's incredibly tall (e.g. 7 ft) or short.
 * 2) Conversion errors can be avoided in Template:Infobox basketball biography by using imperial/metric as the base for input, but changing the order of display using height_order and weight_order
 * 3) The practice that generally seems to be followed is that players currently playing in the US use ft/lbs.  See Gasol, Steve Nash, etc.  Even recently-created Jonah Bolden, an Australian playing in college in the U.S. now, went from imperial to metric and now seems settled on imperial. Per WP:UNIT: "The choice of primary units depends on the circumstances, and should respect the principle of "strong national ties", where applicable."

I'm pretty apathetic about changing these if a non-American is no longer active in the U.S. However, it would only make sense, at best, for players from predominantly English-speaking countries. Otherwise, I'm assuming fewer readers from their country would be reading en.wikipedia, and there would be more Americans reading about the overseas player.—Bagumba (talk) 17:05, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I wasn't aware that placing height and weight in the lead was discouraged but wholeheartedly agree with that, it doesn't add any information to the article if not used in context and should be purged from articles (its rife in those of European players). The compromise suggested by KanterMan340, whilst in good faith, hence does not really answer the problem. Not too keen on the "strong national ties" argument, when do you draw the line between strong and weak ties? How do you explain the choice in the article? I agree with the fact that U.S. based players should have their parameters in imperial units (hence not respecting strong national ties for a lot of them) but I don't understand why that is not concurently applied for players based worldwide with metric units. I'm probably commenting too much on this but I'd like the issue settled with more participation, if not it'll just be completely random and an open invitation to edit wars (as has been the case already). --ArmstrongJulian (talk) 19:50, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I think an exception is made to use feet for foreign NBA players like Gasol, presumably because most readers of their bios are Americans who are following the NBA. If we can agree that all Americans should use feet, and that all foreign players who are currently in the NBA players are likely listed with feet also, I think the only gray area might be foreign NBA players who are not currently in the NBA i.e. not playing/retired or currently in another league.—Bagumba (talk) 19:16, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

For European players who plays in Europe its normal to have meters and kgs... if they move to NBA then can be changed to feet. For Americans in Europe i dont have nothing against to have american units, but for European players in Europe it just doesnt make sense to have feet.--Bozalegenda (talk) 17:56, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Agree.-- AirWolf  talk  19:50, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Proposal (based on previous talk): Let's get a consensus on this "problem". I want you all to see metric system. All world countries, with the exceptions for the US, Burma and Liberia are using metric system. Based on what others wrote here, these are my conclusions:
 * Players coming from USA (Burma, Liberia) should have non-metric units (e.g. feet/inches for height, pounds for weight);
 * Players coming from countries that adopted metric system should have metric units (e.g. meters/centimeters(less common) for height, kilograms for weight);

On Wikipedia, there have been created many templates which auto-translate these measures to opposite (metric to non-metric) by putting the secondary in brackets. I get that many readers come from the US, and we should give non-metric measures a lead (make it primary) when a player comes to NBA (other US leagues) from the country where metric system is officially adopted so that readers don't get confused. Also, my proposal is that once they sign with non-NBA team or exit NBA (by retirement etc.), we make metric system a primary for that player, just like it should be a case with Nenad Krstić. Non-metric system measures will still exist, just it won't be primary, but secondary. Who is in? And not? Support/Oppose/Comment, choose.-- AirWolf  talk  20:05, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Note: WT:NBA has been notified of this discussion.—Bagumba (talk) 20:17, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I wonder if Canada should be included for imperial. Their national team website lists their men's national team in feet .—Bagumba (talk) 20:21, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Maybe the United Kingdom as well, metres and kilos are officially used (sometimes solely) but imperial units are still widespread for height and weight. --ArmstrongJulian (talk) 20:27, 12 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Don't want to open that can of worms but I'm pretty sure the centimetres/metres issue was decided in favour of the former, you can find the conversation in this talk page's archives by searching height if I'm not mistaken. My preference is for assigning the units based on where the player's are playing, not on nationality, everybody agrees that should be the case for U.S.-based players but no one seems to see the other side of the coin, the argument that english wikipedia basketball users are mostly American is shaky, its not the case on this talk page for one. That said, I'd rather have a reasonable consensus than anarchy and if the majority agree to using units based on nationality (with an exception for the NBA) then I'll vote for that. --ArmstrongJulian (talk) 20:27, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment - That's almost exactly what I've proposed. Using units based on territory the player is playing currently. What about retired players? Based on nationality?-- AirWolf  talk  20:36, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Glad we could agree. For retired players I would favour parameters from reliable sources first whatever the units (I put Ron Sanford in imperial units even though he mostly played in Europe as the metric measures I found were all over the place, from 2.00 to 2.15). If there's a choice then probably the place where he had the most impact (including college), then again I must confess I don't know what we're supposed to use for retired players, be it his parameters at retirement or at another point in his career. --ArmstrongJulian (talk) 21:15, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm also not having a good idea for that right now. Take a part in sub-section below and give your opinion once you too get a good idea.-- AirWolf  talk  21:24, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Oppose - I think that just because a European player (especially those who have played in the NBA for multiple years) shouldn't be moved back to the metric system because most American NBA followers that know them don't really know the metric system. I think that KanterMan's compromise suits everybody's needs because it gives both sides their respective units. -- Miamiheat 631 Talk  20:24, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment - They don't have to know metric system. They are offered non-metric units in brackets as secondary once given metric units a primary function. That is also in correlation with "KanterMan's compromise".-- AirWolf  talk  20:28, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Support - As I mentioned before, European players who plays in Europe should have metric sistem first. Both units are in infobox, but for European players first must be meters cause thats what we use in Europe.--Bozalegenda (talk) 21:17, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I assume you mean players who are currently playing in Europe, and not any player who might have played for Europe in the past?—Bagumba (talk) 21:29, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I think he meant it that way. Metric system in leagues where metric system is official. Based on territory, and not nationality.-- AirWolf  talk  21:42, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, I mean for European players who currenty plays in Europe. For European players in NBA I dont have nothing against to have feet, but for European players in Europe there should be metric system.--Bozalegenda (talk) 22:07, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
 * This issue is a bit ridiculous to me. Listing heights no matter if it is old, outdated, incorrect, unofficial, whatever, if it comes from a "club team" that must be used. Never mind official height sources from leagues and FIBA. Also, using the metric system converter it changes the heights in an incorrect conversion. I tried to explain this to him, and he would not even discuss it with me. I give an example, but 210 cm is more 6-11 and yet it will say it is 6-10. Also, this method is basically saying that anyone can pick a player's height from a club, that's unofficial, old, whatever, and list that over official height listings from NBA, FIBA, etc. I just give the example of Jan Vesey, who was officially listed by the NBA at 7-0 feet and by also FIBA at 7 feet. He was changed to 6-10 1/2. And I also will say, he has never been listed at 6-10 1/2 anywhere at any time, even in very old listings, he was listed at 6-11. But then he was changed to 6-10 1.2, because supposedly his team listed him that way, and the metric system said that's how tall he is (even though actually the conversion here is off). Strange, because in watching EuroBasket right now, I saw he was clearly taller than Jonas Valanciunas who is listed right now at 7-0. No doubt, he was clearly taller, and so the site here had him listed at 6-10 1/2. I am sorry, but no. Listing heights by what a club site says is not the correct way. And changing height to old and known to be outdated heights is not the correct way. And using the metric converter on the site, which incorrectly converts the heights is not the correct way.Bluesangrel (talk) 01:35, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * With no intention to offend you, but what exactly do you propose? Your whole talk is tackling several examples, topics, but the essence is nowhere to be found.-- AirWolf  talk  20:48, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I propose that using team listings is not proper, when you have pro leagues listings. To use a team listing over that is inappropriate and improper. If that is the only height source, then it is OK. But to use that as a way to invalidate league listings like NBA, Euroleague ir not. Also, changing the heights to metric system should only be proper if the Wikipedia metric converter properly converts. The problem is, and I tried to bring this up, the Wikipedia metric converts heights and weights in improper ways. The editor then has to themselves find the correct measurement and by themselves enter it. However, I have yet to find where any editor has ever done that, and I myself have tried to do it sometimes to fix those, and it always gets reverted then by other editors. So unless the metric system converts on Wikipedia get fixed properly to being more accurate, then they should not be used, simply because the English converter is more accurate. It's also this problem I bring up of people inserting their own agenda into player heights. I bring up like Jan Vesely. It is something I notice across the site on basketball articles since I started editing here. That always the oldest measurement or weight that an editor can find (and usually that is a team listing, or sometimes one from FIBA juniors at age 16), is insisted as being the actual measurement or weight of the player. I know this is a fact because of the many cases of players going to the NBA, getting measured, having their measurements available, then they get new height listings and their heights are changed on their articles. Then they return to Europe and they get their heights changed back to a lower height than their previous measurement, because "their team lists them at that height". Example, Aleksey Shved or Victor Khryapa playing in CSKA as very young players, and then they come back there years later, but them team used the original height. Someone changes the height, and says "updated height to current height because the team height listing is current and always updated". I find similar editing with player's weights. I give an example Dimitris Diamantidis. This guy is clearly about 105 kilos, and even listings from about 10 years ago said he was 100 kilos, but a team listing put him at 87 kilos, so some editors will keep listing him at 87 kilos and always claim "it is current weight and updated because the team lists it". But the team also listed that same weight in 2004, when he first joined the team. So no, it's not a current and updated weight at all. This is just basic common sense, but by using the argument that you have to use team listed heights and weights over all others, you allow this to go on. Maybe in the NBA, team listings are more up to date, but that is absolutely 100% not an argument that can be made for teams outside of the USA, and especially in Europe. So I am not just pointing out the issues, I am explaining simply what should be done and should not be done. It is fine to use metric system first. In fact, I would not care if all players had it that way. So what if they play in NBA or are American? That is a nonsense to argue that way. Metric system is almost universal anyway. The problem is the site's metric conversion is bad, but the site's English conversion is good. And both the converters list both heights and weights, the English and metric listing, so you get the height and weight in both anyway. So either the metric converter needs to be made more accurate, or use the English one, because it is more accurate. But the issue on the metric converter is that for some reason, if you try to edit it to be properly more accurate as it should be, it gets reverted. I don't know why, but the site does not have that metric converter as it properly should have it, it's conversions are just not accurate enough. Maybe it's just impossible to make it accurate enough, but all over the internet you can find ones that are much more accurate.Bluesangrel (talk) 18:37, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Vote for using the system used by the league the player is currently in, home country once retired but I have no idea where to put this given all the discussion. Feels to me like every active player ought to reflect the height/weight shown at their current team site, and by using the "home terms" you'll be closest to their listed height/weight. Saying a Croatian NBA player ought to show meters while all of his teammates are in feet/inches (and he's listed that way officially) seems dumb. Same for an American in Turkey who is listed at "2.03 meters" Just trying to keep to a simple rule. There's really no reason Americans should be on a different rule than others. Rikster2 (talk) 16:13, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree with Rikster, however, this is how I usually approach height/weight changes in the Australian NBL. Prior to joining the New Zealand Breakers, Cedric Jackson was typically listed at around 6'3" and 190 lb by NBA and D-League sources. However, with his move to New Zealand, he is now listed by the Breakers as 191 cm and 91 kg . I personally don't see the need to change his listing from 6'3"/190 lb to 191 cm/91 kg. Instead, I would just tweak the weight from 190 (86 kg) to 200 (91 kg) to reflect the kg change, with 191 cm = 6'3". A different example this past season was DeAndre Daniels. The Perth Wildcats listed him 204 cm, and where in the past I would have changed his listing to "6 ft 8+1/4 in" to reflect 204 cm, I instead just left it as 6'9" because I now really dislike the former method (and I hate that I used to do that). I'm not totally against having overseas-playing Americans listed in metric, but I personally don't change the NBL's American imports to metric. However, with New Zealander Corey Webster possibly signing with the Pelicans soon, I am for changing his listings to whatever the Pelicans list him as. Much how I am not for changing Pau Gasol from 7'0"/250 lb, to 213 cm/113 kg. The NBA player listings are so much more dominant and always give height and weight, whereas Euroleague.net (for example) doesn't list player weights. DaHuzyBru (talk) 18:58, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * @Rikster2: For retired NBA players, I've just never seen editing activity for foreign players like Swen Nater, Rik Smits, Vlade Divac, etc. to change to metric. It just hasn't happened in practice, so is there a compelling reason to start now? As for Americans overseas, I really think the readers are mostly alumni or people from hometown, as opposed to an Italian, French, etc.  fan coming onto English Wikipedia.  I mean, wouldn't the MMDDYYYY date formats need to change, as well as spelling e.g. realize vs realise. Seems inconsistent on existing application of national ties on WP.—Bagumba (talk) 07:03, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Then just do whatever you want. There was a reason I delayed weighing in on this cluster this long, maybe I should have stayed out of it. I don't necessarily agree with your assumption about who the "consumers" of American player overseas articles are. A pretty large number of these articles (for those who don't play in the NBA) are created by European editors specifically because they play overseas. Look at the contributions of editors like H-Hurry, Bozalegenda, etc. Rikster2 (talk) 10:17, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

The first aftermath
Based on previous talk, contest my talk if you don't agree, but I think we have made a solid progress here. And that is: "Using units based on territory the player is playing currently." The only few things left here are: What sources should we use, the club's one, or maybe a league or other relevant website (which)? What about retired/dead players? Thanks in advance.-- AirWolf  talk  21:22, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * As much as I would like the sentence above to be the consensus, I'd say it was closer to "use metric units for non-US players outside the US and imperial units for US players and US based players". Not ideal in my eyes but I'd take that over nothing so if we can cement at least that as consensus this won't have been in vain. For taking the stats I would take the club's data, barring that the league, barring that as reliable a source as possible (Eurobasket.com and RealGm are usually pretty reliable). If there's different numbers, put a footnote as per WP:NBAHEIGHT. --ArmstrongJulian (talk) 13:48, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with ArmstrongJulian's assessment. Here is what I am seeing:
 * American players: imperial
 * Current US-based players: imperial
 * Not sure about current players in Canada, where NBL uses imperial on its website
 * Metric should be fine for all other current players
 * Not clear what the consensus is on retired non-Americans. I'd recommend people not change for the sake of changing, and just leave whatever is already on a given page unless there is a new consensus
 * —Bagumba (talk) 18:07, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * That is pretty much what I was offering, except for the part that US players should have imperial units if they play in European leagues, for example. However, I agree on Canadian players, clubs - they all use imperial units. So, if we go with "use the units the club is using", if any club from countries where metric system is used, uses imperial units, we should too.-- AirWolf  talk  18:18, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Also, I think that, if already discussing, we should get an agreement on all things now, leaving nothning uncertain. If that standards needs to get changed in the future, someone will start new discussion and address to this one.-- AirWolf  talk  18:21, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'd even recommend creating a page that tracks all this, with links and all to past consensus. I can never remember all this, and hate digging in archives whenever something is contested. At WP:NBA, there is WikiProject National Basketball Association/Style advice with a lot of footnotes to past discussions.—Bagumba (talk) 18:30, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The club listing should not be used. I will bring other editors into the discussion if necessary. This makes no sense whatsoever.Bluesangrel (talk) 21:31, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
 * OK, so since obviously no one agrees with my All-Normal unit system (lol), I think that as a good compromise, all American-born players, regardless of what country or league they play in, should use normal units and foreign-born players outside of the NBA and other American leagues, should use metrics. Most American-born players are known more by Americans and more Americans know our units.  A lot of American players that play in foreign leagues come from the NBA, where they are well known already.  And since more European players are known by European people (since they originated and, in most cases, started playing ball there), and most European people use the metric system, it makes sense.  But I also think that American-born players that play in European leagues that have never played in American could use the metric system, since most Americans don't know them.  But those are just my two cents.  -- Miamiheat 631  Talk  21:43, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
 * That is fine Miami. Personally, the idea that you have to use metric system for any player outside the USA makes no sense at all. Because the metric units are provided already right there in the template, and as I already said, the English converter is more accurate than the metric converter. Everyone is simply ignoring all of these points being made. So basically, I am in agreement with you on that, only I take it further, that all players should be listed that way. But I also don't think in any way this is correct to go with the listing of the club for the height and weight, and to ignore what a league listing is or what a FIBA senior listing is. I cannot possibly see how this makes any sense, nor in any way see how there is any reasonable argument to suggest this is the correct way for this to be done. it is totally illogical, and I am sure this would not be the case if this went to a general sports page and we opened the discussion there.Bluesangrel (talk) 21:51, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I think we shouldn't go for that exception:"US players who have played in the NBA, should have imperial units regardless of the territory they are playing now." Because that would create another exception, meaning of the minimum games played in the league to be notable. How are you gonna rate their popularity. I'm more for metric units once they leave the American leagues (usually NBA, but also case of college/high school players just like it was a case with Brandon Jennings). What about retired players?-- AirWolf  talk  08:24, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I think any American basketball player, regardless of NBA experience, should use American units, because those are their home units and most Americans who would be looking them up would recognize American units as the primary units more. As for retired players, I would say maybe use the unit system of the country/area/continent of where they played the most (for example, if Dirk Nowitzki were to retire, he would use American units since he spent most of his time there).  -- Miamiheat 631  Talk  01:07, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * And with that stance you are voiding previously agreed terms of territory-first units.-- AirWolf  talk  12:53, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * OR, how about this: Any player who has played in an American college, regardless of nationality, be measured in American units, because college basketball is very popular in America and a lot of fans know certain players from their favorite college, or multiple colleges very well.  Especially some star collegiate players that turned out to not make the NBA, they would be more known by an American audience who know the American system well.  Anybody else (excluding foreign players currently playing in America of course) should be measured in metrics.  I think that is a good enough compromise, but that might just me be.  -- Miamiheat 631  Talk  01:12, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The problem is, you are making an exception to the American players based on "article popularity" in NA region, but on the other side how can you prove that such player's article is more likely to be seen by American than some European person? Neither the opposite can not be proven. How can you prove the supremacy of American readers? That is a discrimination toward non-American readers. So, if that's the case, why making that exception?-- AirWolf  talk  12:51, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

To both User:Miamiheat631 and User:Bagumba, why are you making an exception for American players regardless of the territory they are playing? Please, prove the supremacy of the American reader over non-American. Otherwise, we have the option to follow "territory rule". If neither can be proven or followed, respectively, we are in stalemate and consensus can't be reached. Don't be so stubborn, let's make a compromise; so far, as I can see you both defended American players, thus way discriminating others.-- AirWolf  talk  13:01, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Mainly WP:UNIT re: national ties. As far as someone like Pau Gasol, maybe someone wants to be bold and try changing it to metric first as a test and see what the reaction (if any) is.—Bagumba (talk) 15:50, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * And yet everyone is still ignoring the fact that metric converter is less accurate than the English converter, and both show both height and weight listings anyway, So it makes no sense at all, not to use the standard way as the NBA listings for every article. Especially when you can simply enter the correct height and weight input and get the exact conversion back in metric unit and have it listed right there on the template in metric system. Why this is continued to be ignored?Bluesangrel (talk) 21:03, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Something really needs to be done about the myth being perpetuated by Wikipedia that meters are more commonly used for giving height in the metric system than centimeters.--99.232.1.160 (talk) 02:20, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Director Sports Medicine equals what entry on roster template?
I'm trying to update the WNBA rosters but my question is probably not specific to WNBA but general basketball knowledge.

The template has fields for athletic trainer as well as strength and conditioning coach. Two years ago those positions were held by Seanta Cleveland and Dustin Wolf, respectively

The current roster continues to list Seanta Cleveland as head athletic trainer which sounds straightforward, but they list Michael Douglas as director of sports medicine, not one of the options.

As for the complication, this announcement states that "Michael Douglas has been added to the staff as the team’s Head Athletic Trainer".

I'm guessing that they brought him on and then decided to give him the title of director of sports medicine, but it isn't clear to me how I should fill out the template. The official roster clearly states that Seanta Cleveland Is the head trainer and I think that trumps even the announcement, but I don't know whether to drop the strength and conditioning position and not mention Michael Douglas or to do something else. Thoughts appreciated.-- S Philbrick (Talk)  15:44, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

WNBA infobox conversions - help welcome
All - months ago Consensus was reached to migrate Template:Infobox WNBA biography to the more common Template:Infobox basketball biography, including the addition of several fields that made the conversion possible (see merge discussion here). I have been making the majority of these changes over the last few months and we are now down to just 15 subjects using the deprecated infobox. I'd love any help converting these, so please help out. List can be found here. Thanks! Rikster2 (talk) 14:17, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I converted Anna Montañana. What is the convention in the case of gaps in years such as the 2005 – 2006, 2008 – 2010 years. My guess is you want a separate row, but I'm not sure.-- S Philbrick (Talk)  16:40, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
 * First, thank you for the help! Second, the teams go in chronological order and if a player suited up for a team more than once (non-consecutive tenures), they get a second entry with that team in the proper chronological spot. I edited Anna Montañana to demonstrate. Rikster2 (talk) 16:45, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
 * OK, got it. I know that pro teams should not be separated by  but what about collge (cf. Tausha Mills) Are there parameters such as college1 and college2 or should I separate as in the WNBA biography?-- S Philbrick  (Talk)  16:52, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I usually use  out of habit, but in truth you can list as bullets and the template will code it correctly – see coding for Joshua Smith (basketball). Rikster2 (talk) 16:57, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
 * FYI:  is discouraged per WP:PLIST.  It's an accessibility problem for those with impaired vision that rely on screen readers.—Bagumba (talk) 17:27, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Got it, will use bullets.-- S Philbrick (Talk)  20:54, 18 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Tanisha Smith ✅


 * Tyra Grant ✅


 * Tausha Mills ✅ -- S Philbrick (Talk)  23:17, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

I did a quick convert on Aya Traoré. She doesnt appeared to have played in WNBA, so I removed mention of it. There no sourcing on the other team, and I wonder if she even meets GNG, so I'll leave it to someone else if they want to fill out the teams in her infobox.—Bagumba (talk) 23:56, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Legitimate question. I have no idea, but feel free to AfD if you think she isn't notable. By my count just 2 conversions left. Rikster2 (talk) 00:07, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Meh on AfD, I fear I'd get sucked into finding all the other women's articles with sparse coverage and will never meet WP:WHYN for a decent sized article not based solely on non-indy sources.. Latoya Williams is another coverrted.  Didn't play in WNBA, so removed.  I get the sense someone just created a bunch of WNBA players when they were signed into training camp.—Bagumba (talk) 00:24, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
 * yes, my experience converting these over the last several months says that many articles were created either because the player was drafted or went to training camp. Lots of abandoned puppies. Rikster2 (talk) 00:29, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
 * One left, Bagumba. Knock it out and finish the infobox merge! Rikster2 (talk) 00:31, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

RIP Template:Infobox WNBA biography.—Bagumba (talk) 00:47, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

International career
Most bios have a section named "International career" when they are talking about the player's career on a national team. I'd propose to rename the section "National team" or "National team career". "International" likely started from NBA articles, as American NBA players typically didn't play internationally except on the US national team. However, with globalization, most players—even Americans— are playing in multiple countries in their career. Dropping "international" would be more accurate and less confusing.—Bagumba (talk) 20:47, 13 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Yeah I'd be in favor of this. – H T  D  06:07, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Agreed Rikster2 (talk) 13:29, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

When is a player's pro career over?
I was looking at Dwayne Collins, a 2010 NBA draft pick who played one season in Italy (eurobasket.com profile here). Is it safe to assume this guy is done playing? This will be his fifth season off according to anything I can find on the web. Can we come to some sort of consensus around this, because not every notable player is high profile enough for their retirement to make the news. Seems like one year of not playing is too soon, but after maybe 3 or 4 I think it's silly for the pro career to have "–present" on it. Thoughts? Rikster2 (talk) 23:52, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
 * We could just get rid of the career span altogether like Template:Infobox NFL player did. The career span can be inferred from the career history, except in the less common cases where we might know a players career span but not all the teams they played. Removing the span wouldn't solve the issue of when to place "former" in the lead, but that's less glaring than seeing "–present".—Bagumba (talk) 00:02, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
 * If there's no evidence that he has even tried to join a team for a couple of years, I think it's safe to describe him as a former player. It sounds like Collins had a pretty serious knee injury that kept him sidelined for a while: . I'm not seeing any news on him beyond 2013.
 * I agree that we should get rid of the career span when things are ambiguous. I think you can just leave that (and the team field) blank. If you really want to play things safe, you could probably reword the first sentence to avoid a "[So and so] is a..." statement. Zagal e jo^^^ 05:06, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Any thoughts on removing the career span support from the template altogether?—Bagumba (talk) 05:11, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Guys, Collins didn't even play for the Italian team. He got injured shortly after signing with the team and never suited up (there are no stats on eurobasket or here). So he actually should have nothing in that field anyway. He has never played a professional game, other than five summer league games with Phoenix in 2013. My point being, Collins is not a good example. DaHuzyBru (talk) 07:49, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Mainly this concerns template Infobox basketball biography and its documentation, evidently parameters |career_start |career_end |years1 |coach_start |coach_end. Parameters are documented in both sections 3 and 8.
 * Offhand, Bagumba's suggestion is reasonable. --P64 (talk) 18:09, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
 * If we were to get rid of career_start and career_end (which I am open to if that's the consensus opinion), then we should probably also remove coach_start and coach_end. Rikster2 (talk) 14:45, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I'd support removing it from both player and coach infoboxes. I think it's even harder to define the end of a coach's career. Zagal e jo^^^ 04:14, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

One caveat I found is that "career_end" is currently used to control if career playing stats are allowed to be displayed in the infobox. If we no longer have that parameter, we lose a way to control the display of stats. Personally, I think that is a good throttle, as I like how we generally don't have daily stats edits for players (sometimes in the tables though), which you then have to worry if it's out of date, or having to track "updated as of" notes. Ideas on how to proceed, or stick with status quo?—Bagumba (talk) 07:35, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Ugh. These infoboxes are too complicated. :) It seems that the stats will display if the career end date is simply a question mark. Maybe that's an option to consider in certain situations. If there has to be something in that field, I'd rather use a question mark than guess what the end date should be. Zagal e jo^^^ 01:29, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Draft:Juevol Myles
Dear basketball experts: Is this a notable player? If so, the draft can be improved by trimming some excessive detail nad adding references such as this and this. &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 01:41, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I'd say he's borderline notable, at best. He averaged double figures for a Division 1 team and has played pro ball in Europe (if not in the actual Euroleague), so he has that going for him. That said, there's very little in the draft that's actually worth keeping. Most of the information in the early life section is probably impossible to source; a good chunk of the college section is simply copied from his school profile; and the pro career section is out of date. I don't think this is an article that we really need, and since it would have to be re-written from the ground up, I'd just toss it. Zagal e jo^^^ 01:41, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Mike Gamboa
I placed a BLP Prod on the recently created article Mike Gamboa, which has no references. I am placing a notice here as I am not certain whether he meets the sports notability guidelines, the article claims that he is a professional Filipino basketball player in the ASEAN League. Safiel (talk) 01:34, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * He is listed in the league's website. I'm not sure if he is notable or not. WP:NBASKETBALL does not explicitly mention the league, but unfortunately has the ambiguous verbiage "or a similar major professional sports league." I don't know enough about basketball in the Philippines to presume anything, so personally I'd fall back on WP:GNG.—Bagumba (talk) 01:41, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree. However, BLP Prod lasts a week, so plenty of time for somebody in WP:Basketball to do a check, in the happenstance that he might satisfy basketball notability guidelines. Safiel (talk) 01:45, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Merge proposal
Hi guys. I've put up a discussion for a merge proposal at Talk:Philippines men's national basketball team of Smart Gilas into Philippines men's national basketball team. Participants would be appreciated. Thepantomimehorse (talk) 13:21, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Miami Heat team colors
Hello. I was wondering if there was any way that the Heat's team colors for infoboxes and templates can get changed back to black and dark red, as it previously was. I noticed that it is now dark red and yellow-orange, which in my opinion looks a lot like the Cavaliers colors. The black and red represented the team more, as it is their main colors for their away jerseys, which seems to be what a lot of teams have their colors based on (i.e. the Knicks, Warriors, Bucks, Bulls). If someone could please do this and get it changed back to black and red, it would be much appreciated. It just looks so much better that way. Thanks. -- Miamiheat 631 Talk  21:31, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Serious problem with British articles
We have serious problem with British articles. The sources of the article English Basketball League says about NBL (National Basketball League), not EBL. Also, the enwiki has that article [ National Basketball League (England) ]. I quote the data and hope to find a solution. --IM-yb (talk) 14:12, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Current roster navboxes
I think we need to use a non-breaking space (&amp;nbsp;) between the jersey number and the name or surname of the player who uses it. It will produce the same output except that both are in the same line. This will be the input, for example: What do you think about this? Israel's Son 12:19, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * 13&amp;nbsp;Harden
 * 23&amp;nbsp;James
 * 30&amp;nbsp;Curry
 * I think that make sense. Feel free to format that way.Rikster2 (talk) 12:47, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Are there any cases, where linebreak is between number and surname? If the template uses hlist class, then such &amp;nbsp; should be added automatically. -- Edgars2007  (talk/contribs) 13:14, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the late reply. Anyway, navboxes are using nowraplinks by default. Nowraplinks only prevents the linebreaks in links but not the ones between normal text and links. So we need to use &amp;nbsp; to solve the issue. Israel's Son 02:48, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I think Template:Team roster navbox is supposed to address the wrapping.—Bagumba (talk) 03:25, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
 * , do we really need &amp;nbsp;? I always had though, that we don't need them in navboxes (for list items). -- Edgars2007  (talk/contribs) 15:03, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The basic  class does not prevent any wrapping within the list item, so a wrap between 13 and Harden is possible, and the same applies for a normal  with hlist.
 * is different - this uses code in Module:Team roster navbox that (as far as I can tell - Lua is not easy to read) replaces all runs of one or more normal spaces with a single non-breaking space, so you can write  and Module:Team roster navbox processes this so that it is as if you had written   Effectively, this prevents wrapping within each list item, so there is no need to add your own  . -- Red rose64 (talk) 16:11, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks. Yes, I noticed, what Team roster navbox does. Module replaces all spaces (expect after *) with &amp;nbsp; in list items. -- Edgars2007  (talk/contribs) 17:07, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Why not using like in football, this kind of templates? Asturkian (talk) 10:20, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I think we need to settle on using as what Redrose64 suggested. I'm already using it in some navboxes. Israel's Son 11:02, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I didn't suggest it - did. -- Red rose64 (talk) 11:03, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Sorry about that. It seems that I'm looking the other way. Israel's Son 12:08, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Driloon77
Hi, I am having some issues with (and an IP I believe is same user) who has been making a lot of weird edits like this and this. Could anyone related to this project please take a look at the editors contributions and created articles that would be highly appreciated. Unfortunately I dont have the time or knowledge myself. Qed237&#160;(talk) 14:27, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
 * This is a common newbie mistake; seems to be under the impression that by adding lots of blank lines they can increase vertical space, presumably to get the References section below the bottom of the infobox. This makes assumptions about the characteristics of everybody else's setup, which is always a bad idea. Far better is to use . -- Red rose64 (talk) 22:10, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, I thought so to but the editor has made other weird edits as well. However, my main concern are some page creations and if they are notable or not (I am not very familiar with this project and related guidelines). Qed237&#160;(talk) 23:22, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Some article the editor is involved in and I dont know about notability is:
 * Gëzim Morina
 * Arben Krasniqi
 * Blerim Mazreku
 * Kevin Burwell
 * Edmond Azemi
 * Stanimir Marinov
 * Drilon Hajrizi
 * Samir Shaptahoviç
 * Dardan Berisha

All of this needs at least improving, but are they notable? <i style="font-family:Sans-serif"><b style="color:blue">Qed</b><b style="color:red">237</b>&#160;<b style="color:green">(talk)</b></i> 23:26, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi, Qed. IMO, articles that have real notability are Morina, Burwell and Berisha. About guidelines, my opinion is to be as similar as possible to the WikiProject football. Greetings. Asturkian (talk) 23:36, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Okay, thanks. Do you think it is worth to test AfD for the others (one at the time)? <i style="font-family:Sans-serif"><b style="color:blue">Qed</b><b style="color:red">237</b>&#160;<b style="color:green">(talk)</b></i> 23:39, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Not sure why you're asking me; my opinion was on the reason for the extra blank lines. -- Red rose64 (talk) 01:00, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Articles are expected to be able to meet WP:GNG. The difficulty I have as an English-speaker lies in reading sources in a foreign language and not having the expertise to determine which foreign sources are reliable and which aren't.  On top of that, WP:NBASKETBALL has the open-ended criteria of playing in a "similar major professional sports league", which likely gives some articles a free pass when there really isn't significant coverage from multiple reliable, independent sources to enable the writing of a decent-sized, neutral article that satisfies WP:WHYN.—Bagumba (talk) 01:24, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

I have now taken one of the recently created articles, Stanimir Marinov (created by the blocked sockmaster), to AfD to see what community thinks of these articles. <i style="font-family:Sans-serif"><b style="color:blue">Qed</b><b style="color:red">237</b>&#160;<b style="color:green">(talk)</b></i> 13:19, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Balkan league
Hi, is playing in Balkan International Basketball League enough for a player notability? <i style="font-family:Sans-serif"><b style="color:blue">Qed</b><b style="color:red">237</b>&#160;<b style="color:green">(talk)</b></i> 23:48, 29 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Hi again. Imo, no. It's a professional and multi-national league, but a second (or third) level one. E.g., only one team of this season plays European competition (Sigal joined FIBA Europe Cup, the "3rd tier"). Asturkian (talk) 00:18, 30 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Okay thanks, I will wait for further input and otherwise a lot of the articles in the list above will be nominated for AfD (thos who have not played in adriatic league). Arben Krasniqi is currently at AfD. <i style="font-family:Sans-serif"><b style="color:blue">Qed</b><b style="color:red">237</b>&#160;<b style="color:green">(talk)</b></i> 00:45, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The level of play is actually irrelevant. The more pertinent question is whether the players in league can be presumed to get significant converge from multiple independent, reliable sources.—Bagumba (talk) 02:07, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Redundant "basketball clubs" category mess
Please see Categories for discussion/Log/2016 February 27. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  08:28, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Player's previous teams
Hi,

It has come to my attention that players' infoboxes show different info and format regarding the previous teams. According to Template:Infobox basketball biography, it should be – '' All stints for professional minor league and overseas leagues should be listed. The country which an overseas team is based should be listed with the format: ''. However, I got puzzled over this, because there's no mention to what players this format should be applied. American players? All current/former NBA players? Or for everyone? – Sabbatino (talk) 17:06, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
 * The infobox refers to all players, the language sounds very American-centric and should probably shift. I will say there is NOT consensus that the country must always be included, so that language should probably also shift in the template language. Rikster2 (talk) 17:57, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
 * There's no consensus that I'm aware of. However, what's the point by listing something if it isn't used? Looks like documentation needs some updates (there are more sport's infoboxes that need to be updated). It's also strange that country (alongside club) in the infobox is listed on many European NBA players' articles, but it's the opposite for Europeans playing elswhere than NBA. It just feels wrong and looks like double standards are being applied without any explanation.– Sabbatino (talk) 20:50, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

The last major discussion on this seems to have been at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Basketball/Archive_7. The brief history is that Template:Infobox basketball biography was formed out of Template:Infobox NBA biography, which was NBA- and American-centric. Invite WP:NBA here and see if there is a new consensus.—Bagumba (talk) 04:03, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
 * For the record, I have always felt that including league/country after team in the infobox was bad practice. There is limited space and I think that while this information is somewhat useful, it isn't useful enough to allow the crowding this causes. There are a number of cases where the country parenthesis causes a wrap to the next line. The majority of teams now have articles and really info about countries and leagues SHOULD be in the prose, though I think often people fill out an infobox to avoid writing a real article,so there are a lot of stubs where the infobox is the only place that talks about the teams they played for. I vote we eliminate this from basketball biography altogether. Rikster2 (talk) 13:04, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
 * This should be removed, because template's documentation wasn't changed when 2 previous templates were merged into one (I completely forgot about the merge). – Sabbatino (talk) 13:25, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Fatou Dieng
Hello, could the basketball crowd help out please. I got involved in a discussion with another user on a Senegalese player called Fatou Dieng. There definitely seems to be at least one player by that name, but some sites list her as born in 1983, others in 1985. On top of that, there is also a claim of another such player, born in 1982. Confusing... hope you can help out. Discussion here: Talk:Fatou Dieng (basketball). --Midas02 (talk) 18:22, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Semi-pro team
I was asked by the reviewer of Draft:New York Red Riders (American Basketball Association) to take a look at it. However, while I have interest in basketball, I have almost no knowledge of the semi-pro leagues. My guess is that they ought to be notable – I see other teams have articles, but I’d like someone with more knowledge of this aspect of the sport to take a look.-- S Philbrick (Talk)  13:46, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

Notable college athlete?
Hi! I was recently cleaning out a really, really promotional article for Le'Greg O. Harrison and most of the sources that were in the article either didn't refer to him, weren't reliable, or (predominantly) were dead links. There was mention of him playing in a college basketball team for VSU, but I don't know that VSU's team is really major enough to where he'd qualify for notability on that basis alone.

I'm leaning towards redirecting this to The Board Administration, which is still pretty spammy as of this message. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡)  05:03, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Tom Thacker
Not sure if alerts will pick up this RM discussion In ictu oculi (talk) 07:24, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

'Category:American centers (basketball)' CfD
Thought this WikiProject might be interested in Category:American centers (basketball) CfD. Jrcla2 (talk) 00:38, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Playoff appearances
Hi,

Recently IP user added  parameter to the infobox of most NBA teams' articles. Of course I reverted it as I thought it didn't add anything relevant to the infobox. However, on Portland Trail Blazers article one user objected to my action claiming that it should be included, because "it's in the template". So should it be included or should it be left out of the infobox? – Sabbatino (talk) 13:21, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
 * As the user who reverted the removal at the Blazers page, my issue is that this is a valid parameter in the template. It has been there for two years, and the fact that it works shows it is a valid parameter. If it is not needed, then a discussion needs to be had regarding removing the parameter, not unilateral action to remove it from the articles. I personally have no skin in the game, as I do not really edit NBA articles much, other than as to vandalism removal. Aboutmovies (talk) 17:39, 8 April 2016 (UTC) P.S. Looking at the IP's edit history, it appears they added the info to about 17 articles, so it appears about half may have already had it in there. Aboutmovies (talk) 17:41, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I reverted all those additions, because none of the NBA articles use this parameter (the other 13 as you said). – Sabbatino (talk) 17:44, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I tend to think that there's a reason this parameter is not used in the infobox. Someone, who knows something about this, please explain. – Sabbatino (talk) 18:55, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Any thoughts regarding this matter? – Sabbatino (talk) 17:21, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
 * We could probably do without it. It's one more thing that people will forget to update, and actual championships are more meaningful. Zagal e jo^^^ 01:20, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

FIBA-Euroleague controversy
I think this controversy in European basketball deserves an article as it is not only about the "war" Euroleague-BCL since FIBA decided to ban 14 European teams. I tried to write about it in the article of the EuroBasket 2017 (thank you to the people who improved it) but I think maybe it would be better to separate this from the article of the competition. What do you think? Asturkian (talk) 18:59, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I would put it in a separate article. Because I am sure with how FIBA is reacting that it will drag out a long time and be in court. It will be too much a bit off topic stuff to be in another article.Bluesangrel (talk) 21:31, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Rony Seikaly article problems
For a very long time now, all references and sources related to Rony Seikaly's time in Greece are removed from his article. Various users have been doing this for a very long time now at that article. No matter how much detailed info is added, how many sources from official media in both Greece and USA and English language sources are added, confirming the info, it basically always automatically gets removed. And numerous different users remove it. What can be done about this issue?Bluesangrel (talk) 01:20, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
 * It appears to anons removing that info. You could request semi protection? DaHuzyBru (talk) 04:55, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I did that before, but some users that were registered also kept removing the info. I don't even see why edits pertaining to his youth years or young life are at all controversial.Bluesangrel (talk) 23:58, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Anything related to nationalities can become an endless source of drama. One of those IPs has been making the same edits for years, so I left a note on their talkpage to come to the discussion here. It's hard for me to be much help when I don't understand Greek, but I will say that it's not clear what makes this a reliable source. Zagal e jo^^^ 01:09, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I added US media sources and ones in English also. And I never made any edit that claimed he has Greek citizenship. Although evidently he does have it, and said so himself apparently. But I have not seen any articles confirming that, so I never made any edit about that. The edits should not be controversial, because they are not about his nationality. They are about the fact that he grew up in Greece, and played basketball there, before he moved to the USA, and that he started as a DJ in Greece also. Somehow, any edit related to that is always removed, as are the sources. Even sources in major US media like Sports Illustrated articles get removed.Bluesangrel (talk) 21:28, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * You seem to contradict yourself. You say that he has Greek citizenship, but you haven't seen any articles confirming that. Why do you think he has Greek citizenship? I'm reluctant to get too involved with this, anyway. I don't like protecting pages or blocking editors unless I fully understand the issues at play. Zagal e jo^^^ 03:24, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Team pages listing Hall of Famers question
1. Newbie here. I see team pages, like Golden State Warriors that list Pete Newell as a 'Contributor' in the Hall of Famers section. Pete Newell is a HoFer and he did work as a scout for the Warriors, but never as a head coach or player. It seems over zealous to add him as a 'Coach' of the Golden State Warriors who is now in the HoF. Lists of HoFers on team pages could explode if the criteria is that minimal. Also applies to Dick Vitale on Detroit Pistons page and Wayne Embry on Cleveland Cavaliers page. Is there a policy on what types of roles/positions a HoFer had to hold with a team to appear in these lists?--E bailey (talk) 21:34, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

2. Comment/suggestion: I would propose that someone who made the HoF as a player and then coached later in their careers, should not appear as a HoF Coach on a team page - as Dave Cowens does on the Golden State Warriors page. If you made HoF as a player, then you can show up on team pages for teams that you played for. If you made HoF as a coach, then you can show up on tame page for teams that you coached for. Otherwise I don't think one should appear on those lists in the other categories. --E bailey (talk) 21:34, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Hello E bailey. You make good points and have good timing. There is a discussion on this very topic at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 30. You should read that discussion and give your opinion because I think many folks have seen this or similar issues. Welcome to Wikipedia! Rikster2 (talk) 21:43, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Added my comments there --E bailey (talk) 21:57, 26 April 2016 (UTC)